ND while Cleaning a Glock? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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gunowner1
11-26-2012, 21:40
I just heard from my sister that my nephews brother in law shot himself while cleaning his Glock. He died from the injury. My sister sent me a text asking me to be very careful when handlig my guns. I assured her that I am as safe as I can be.
I know anything is possible but I just don't get how he managed to kill himself with an N.D. I don't have any details because the guy lived in P.A. and I don't have anybody locally who would have any knowledge of the scene and what happened.
Anybody ever heard stories of people killing themselves while cleaning their gun? Only thing I can think of is that he shot his femural artery and bled out.

jtmac
11-26-2012, 21:48
Taking down a Glock involves pulling the trigger. If someone was careless... well, it can happen.

ALWAYS double check to make sure your weapon is clear. ALWAYS make sure the business end is pointed somewhere relatively harmless even when you "know" it's unloaded.

rick458
11-26-2012, 21:51
It is Never unloaded until you look THROUGH the chamber (from the ejection port )

gunowner1
11-26-2012, 21:52
Taking down a Glock involves pulling the trigger. If someone was careless... well, it can happen.

ALWAYS double check to make sure your weapon is clear. ALWAYS make sure the business end is pointed somewhere relatively harmless even when you "know" it's unloaded.

Trust me I follow this procedure every time I clean one of my guns. I shoot every week and clean every gun when I'm done. I am going to try and find out how much experience he had with firearms but it's going to be difficult cause he lived faraway and asking his sister details may seem kind of insensitive.

Gallium
11-26-2012, 21:57
Sorry to hear this.

concretefuzzynuts
11-26-2012, 22:29
I knew a guy who hung himself with a rope.

The paper described it as a "boating accident".

Henry's Dad
11-26-2012, 22:38
gunowner1,

Sorry to hear this. Can you tell me where in PA this happened? I'd like to check the local media to see if (and more importantly perhaps, how) it has been covered. The media often likes to exploit these types of incidents for agenda-setting. I'll be happy to share with you anything I find.

Again, sorry for your loss.

Andy W
11-26-2012, 22:40
It should be impossible to do while in the act of cleaning it. I never understood this. "Oh he was cleaning the gun when it went off." Bull****. If you're cleaning it, it's in ****ing pieces. I think most of the time when someone NDs a firearm, it's a voluntary pull of the trigger that's intended to be a dry fire but that's not how it turns out. Everyone I know who has had an ND intentionally pulled the trigger without first checking to make sure the weapon was unloaded. It's never been a case of the old "going off while cleaning it" story.

greatwun
11-26-2012, 22:43
Im sorry to hear about that. I too wonder how it was possible to happen if following the proper procedures.

I remember reading a year or so ago about a young man who was showing his family his new Glock and accidentally shot himself. Very Tragic. Exactly why you always treat every gun as if it were loaded.


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unit1069
11-26-2012, 23:39
I just heard from my sister that my nephews brother in law shot himself while cleaning his Glock. He died from the injury. My sister sent me a text asking me to be very careful when handlig my guns. I assured her that I am as safe as I can be.
I know anything is possible but I just don't get how he managed to kill himself with an N.D. I don't have any details because the guy lived in P.A. and I don't have anybody locally who would have any knowledge of the scene and what happened.
Anybody ever heard stories of people killing themselves while cleaning their gun? Only thing I can think of is that he shot his femural artery and bled out.

There is a lot of missing information as others have already pointed out.

Was your nephew's BIL depressed ... intoxicated ... experiencing marital difficulties ... etc?

sourdough44
11-27-2012, 05:09
One never should be daydreaming while handling/cleaning guns. Then whenever you do pull the trigger, for any reason, it should be pointed in a safe direction. That simple habit pattern should keep anyone safe.

airmotive
11-27-2012, 05:19
First three steps in cleaning a Glock:
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.

I've done it hundreds of times.

Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; pull the trigger; rack the slide.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.



It only takes once.

eruby
11-27-2012, 05:24
I knew a guy who hung hanged himself with a rope.

The paper described it as a "boating accident".Grammer police alert - Curtains are hung, people are hanged - :supergrin:

Sorry to read about this death OP.

dherloc
11-27-2012, 05:25
First three steps in cleaning a Glock:
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.

I've done it hundreds of times.

Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; pull the trigger; rack the slide.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.



It only takes once.

You forgot the sound effect half way through your list...and the part where you have to go clean your drawers out.

coqui33
11-27-2012, 05:35
I knew a guy who [hanged] himself with a rope.

The paper described it as a "boating accident".

This. Newsmedia will report a suicide, or not, depending on the family's wishes.

di11igaf
11-27-2012, 06:01
This. Newsmedia will report a suicide, or not, depending on the family's wishes.

Exactly, a friend who was in my apprentiship school with me for 5 years shot himself right before we finished. He was always a little different, but a good guy. It was reported as a ND, but everyone, including his family knew the truth. It's hard to accidentally shoot yourself point blank in the chest with a revolver while cleaning it.(this was the story)

Lowjiber
11-27-2012, 06:07
My wife's father killed himself while "cleaning" a bolt action rifle. He was a depressed, unemployed, alcoholic who had the "accident" while cleaning his gun in bed.

The local newspaper did not report it as a suicide, and his mother (now 89) still claims that it was an accident.

lethal tupperwa
11-27-2012, 06:11
remove the magazine,

rack the slide 3 times

lock open, look in the chamber,stick your finger

in to see if it is empty!

a darkened case in poor light can be overlooked.

Then point in a SAFE direction, release slide and

pull the trigger.

Bren
11-27-2012, 06:14
I just heard from my sister that my nephews brother in law shot himself while cleaning his Glock. He died from the injury. My sister sent me a text asking me to be very careful when handlig my guns. I assured her that I am as safe as I can be.
I know anything is possible but I just don't get how he managed to kill himself with an N.D. I don't have any details because the guy lived in P.A. and I don't have anybody locally who would have any knowledge of the scene and what happened.
Anybody ever heard stories of people killing themselves while cleaning their gun? Only thing I can think of is that he shot his femural artery and bled out.

Gun cleaning accident, is often family-speak for suicide. However, you do have to pull the trigger to take it apart, so if you don't have the sense to empty the chamber first, you can shoot yourself.

Fear Night
11-27-2012, 06:47
I'm not sure how it's possible.

Even if you forgot to check the chamber, and just went straight to pull the trigger for takedown, you wouldn't be pointing the gun at yourself. Nobody is going to point the gun at their head, chest, or leg and pull the trigger without the intention of doing so.

Like others have said in this thread, dying while cleaning a gun is just a nice way of presenting a suicide to others.

Z71bill
11-27-2012, 06:57
Not sure about this case - but I think I understand why many ND happen.


You drop the mag - rack the slide (round comes out) - you check the chamber - gun is empty -

You see one round on the table - it was in the chamber and a mag full of rounds -

Then you do this same procedure for 10 years - and the gun is ALWAYS EMPTY.

So you start to get lazy - and

Drop the mag - rack the slide (round comes out) and you - based on 10 years worth of experience - already know the gun is empty - so why bother checking the chamber - it is always empty.

Then one day you F up - you rack the slide (round comes out) and you then drop the mag -

You can see - one round on the table - it was in the chamber and a mag full of rounds -

But of course when you rack the slide with a mag in the chamber the gun does what is is designed to do - put another round in the chamber.

:dunno:

PhotoFeller
11-27-2012, 06:59
...or alcohol or drugs were involved. Sometimes its just raw stupidity or carelessness. Inexperience can be a factor. Suicide might be the truth, but there can be other explanations because we're subject to human failings.

Ohio Copper
11-27-2012, 07:01
One of the first suicides I ever worked was a guy who took his head off with a twelve gauge. The family to this day claims he was working on the gun and it went off...


Not saying that's the case here but...

I'm in NEOHIO. Pm me with an area and ill see what I can find.


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Roger1079
11-27-2012, 07:02
Im sorry to hear about that. I too wonder how it was possible to happen if following the proper procedures.
The simple answer is it is not possible.

If he had dropped the magazine and cleared the chamber with it pointed in a safe direction BEFORE he pulled the trigger to be able to take down/dry fire the pistol, this would not have happened. Proper safety habits are the most important thing any gun owner should develop, unfortunately it does not always work out that way.

OP, Sorry about your loss.

Z71bill
11-27-2012, 07:09
Unless the gun has a major malfunction & you drop it -

You really need to break more than one safety rule to "accidentally" shoot yourself.

This rule is always broken - keep gun pointed in a safe direction / don't point at something you don't want to shoot (sort of the same rule:dunno:)

Plus -

Keep your finger off the trigger until you positively ID the target --

or

Treat every gun as though it is loaded and ready to fire.

Bren
11-27-2012, 08:17
Even if you forgot to check the chamber, and just went straight to pull the trigger for takedown, you wouldn't be pointing the gun at yourself. Nobody is going to point the gun at their head, chest, or leg and pull the trigger without the intention of doing so.

Been around guns long? Lots of people have shot themselves and others while disassembling pistols, especially Glocks. People who work in the same state agency as me have done it, members of this forum have done it and posted pictures, etc.

Fear Night
11-27-2012, 08:46
Been around guns long? Lots of people have shot themselves and others while disassembling pistols, especially Glocks. People who work in the same state agency as me have done it, members of this forum have done it and posted pictures, etc.
I guess it's just hard for me to fathom purposefully dry firing my Glock with one of my body parts on the other end of the barrel.

Caver 60
11-27-2012, 09:08
My father told be about my uncle when he was young. Before the firearms acts of the 30's dads brother used to sleep with a sawed off double barreled 12 gage, that had external hammers right beside his bed.

One night his brother woke up and found that he had the 12 gage laying on his chest with the barrels pointed at his head. Both hammers were cocked. That cured him of that habit. But if it had went off, everyone would probably have thought suicide. especially since he used to drink a lot.

Sgt127
11-27-2012, 09:42
I had an ND once. I was out shooting a Colt 1911 with an Ace .22 conversion unit on it. Spent the whole day shooting it. Got done, dropped the mag, racked the slide a few times and put it in the holster.

Got home. Took the gun out, clicked the safety off and racked the slide a half a dozen times. Locked the slide back, looked in the chamber, didn't see any brass. Pointed the gun down and pulled the trigger. The gun fired. I was absolutly stunned.

The extractor had broken. Apparently, when racking the slide as often as I did (with a filthy .22) I packed black crud all over the back of the case, and, when I looked in, all I saw was black. I pulled the trigger.

The one thing I did right was have it pointed at the ground. All the visual and mechanical cues told me that the gun was empty. It wasn't.

Just to say, you can do almost everything right and still have an AD/ND. But, unless you violate the one cardinal rule: "never point a gun at anything you're not willing to destroy", you can get away with no one getting injured or killed. One second of innattention or a less experienced gun handler and that round could have been bad.

Chuck TX
11-27-2012, 09:45
I guess it's just hard for me to fathom purposefully dry firing my Glock with one of my body parts on the other end of the barrel.

I've seen people push the slide back against their thigh to disassemble a Glock more than a few times. If they do the "pull trigger" step while it's pointed at their thigh and the chamber isn't cleared they'll give themselves Glock Leg.

Definitely cringe-worthy.

mixflip
11-27-2012, 10:22
I was first on the scene of a plain clothed police officer who shot himself in the thigh with his Glock while attempting to go #2 in a public restroom.

He had a cheap nylon zero retention IWB holster and as he sat down the gun fell out. He lunged for it in a panic...and his finger landed on the trigger and....POW! Luckily he didnt hit an artery. Oddly enough it didnt exit and didnt bleed?

I remember hearing a story of a Navy service member in Virginia that was on a handgun range. He dropped his gun during a transition drill and as he lunged for the gun he grabbed the trigger and shot himself in the head. He died.

Life is stranger than fiction and anything can happen. People make stupid mistakes.

As for cleaning a gun and shooting yourself. It should be impossible if you follow the golden rules but he broke at least 2 of them.

Rabid Rabbit
11-27-2012, 10:56
I knew a guy who hung himself with a rope.

The paper described it as a "boating accident".

Local high school pot head/dealer apparently commited suicide by shooting himself in the chest a dozen+ times with a .22 rifle.

gunowner1
11-27-2012, 20:14
Grammer police alert - Curtains are hung, people are hanged - :supergrin:

Sorry to read about this death OP.
:rofl:

gunowner1
11-27-2012, 20:18
I'll try to get more information from my nephew when I see him. I am really curious how it happened. I didn't know the poor guy. It still seems fishy to me.

Cavalry Doc
11-27-2012, 21:11
First three steps in cleaning a Glock:
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.

I've done it hundreds of times.

Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; pull the trigger; rack the slide.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.
Drop the mag; rack the slide; pull the trigger.



It only takes once.





I just caught the change up in the middle.

Good explanation on how complacency can trip you up.



Drop the mag, open the slide OBSERVE THE EMPTY CHAMBER AND THE EMPTY MAGAZINE WELL, then let the slide go forward and pull the trigger.

Halojumper
11-27-2012, 21:21
Grammer police alert - Curtains are hung, people are hanged - :supergrin:

Sorry to read about this death OP.

Some people are hung! :) (and it's "grammar")

concretefuzzynuts
11-27-2012, 21:51
Grammer police alert - Curtains are hung, people are hanged - :supergrin:

Sorry to read about this death OP.

Thank you for correcting me. I should pay more attention to my posts. It made a huge difference in the meaning of what I stated.

Andy W
11-27-2012, 21:57
Local high school pot head/dealer apparently commited suicide by shooting himself in the chest a dozen+ times with a .22 rifle.

That takes some major determination. Or are you saying it wasn't really a suicide?

larry_minn
11-27-2012, 21:59
I recall a older Police Officer near me. He told me about a "accident while cleaning a gun" As I recall it took him 10 minutes to find the guys gun cleaning gear. (for those of you who don't know how such things go.. the gun cleaning gear is "placed" by body to make story of cleaning gun)

ithaca_deerslayer
11-27-2012, 22:47
Here is crazy old Ithaca to suggest the triple check rule. It puts a nice mental break in the procedure.

1. Drop mag, rack slide back, check the chamber. Close slide. Ok to dry fire? Not yet.

2. Rack slide back, look the mag is out, I can see my pinky down there. Chamber is empty, I can see light in there. Ok to dry fire, this is ridiculous. No, close the slide and check a third time.

3. Rack slide back and lock it open, no mag at all, chamber is empty, I can even feel the empty chamber with my pinky. Ok to dry fire now? Sure, point in a safe direction and go ahead.

If you set the gun down and turn your back, go to step 1 again :)

ysr_racer
11-27-2012, 22:59
He lunged for it in a panic...and his finger landed on the trigger and....POW! Luckily he didnt hit an artery. Oddly enough it didnt exit and didnt bleed?


Bull, have you ever pulled the trigger on a Glock? It's not a 2lb trigger like on a 1911 race gun.

tantrix
11-27-2012, 23:07
remove the magazine,

rack the slide 3 times

lock open, look in the chamber,stick your finger

in to see if it is empty!

a darkened case in poor light can be overlooked.

Then point in a SAFE direction, release slide and

pull the trigger.


This. Even if you rack the slide several times, if your extractor is broken and isn't pulling cartridges out, you're still going to hear a bang when you're supposed to hear a click.

Another problem here is people not pointing the muzzle is a safe direction (upwards where the ceiling meets the wall) when they dry fire. Just because you think (or even know) it's unloaded, pretend it isn't.

NIB
11-28-2012, 00:38
So ummmm, John Holmes was hanged?

Anyway, is it possible that a ND round can ricochet back up and hit the person?

In my first Army unit, we had a guy who was killed after a "gun cleaning accident". Guy was a former Special Forces support coming back from Gulf War 1. We knew he had some issues so a few of us suspected otherwise. None the less it was ruled an accident.

stevelyn
11-28-2012, 01:43
It should be impossible to do while in the act of cleaning it. I never understood this. "Oh he was cleaning the gun when it went off." Bull****. If you're cleaning it, it's in ****ing pieces. I think most of the time when someone NDs a firearm, it's a voluntary pull of the trigger that's intended to be a dry fire but that's not how it turns out. Everyone I know who has had an ND intentionally pulled the trigger without first checking to make sure the weapon was unloaded. It's never been a case of the old "going off while cleaning it" story.

I agree.

eruby
11-28-2012, 05:16
Some people are hung! :) (and it's "grammar")It IS 'grammar'. I have to arrest myself. :supergrin:


Thank you for correcting me. I should pay more attention to my posts. It made a huge difference in the meaning of what I stated.Wasn't trying to be an ***, hence the grinning smiley. And as has been posted, (the late) John Holmes was hung like a horse. :cool:

eracer
11-28-2012, 06:00
Some people are hung! :) (and it's "grammar")Oh, SUH-NAP!

Arc Angel
11-28-2012, 07:05
In my experience home, 'gun cleaning accidents' are usually suicide. I once knew a fellow, a nice guy, who began acting funny. First thing I noticed different about him was that, all of a sudden, he started behaving, kind 'a, pensive and would go strangely silent for what I thought was too long. He seemed to lose his sense of humor, too. (ALWAYS A BAD SIGN!)

This is the sort of event that, even if you know surviving family members well, it's always best to play along with the family's explanation, ask no questions, and give no advice. In this instance all I asked the wife was, 'Where's the gun, now?' She told me the police had it; and she didn't want it back. I pursed my lips, raised my eyebrows, and nodded my head in agreement. Then I didn't say another word. (It was a pristine and only slightly used Colt Python! NOT the kind of gun anybody has a, 'cleaning accident' with.)

The part of gun handling around the home that has always bothered me is that, 'mental switch' you need to very clearly make after you finish, something like, a half hour of dry fire practice. I have a little ritual I go through whenever the magazine full of snap caps comes out of the gun; and the fully loaded, 'hot' magazine goes back in: As I put the fully charged pistol down, or into a holster, I very deliberately press one of my fingernails into a soft part of my hand until I feel a sharp pain. Then I repeat to myself, 'The gun is hot!' 'The gun is hot!'

The pain usually lasts just long enough for me to break the mental/reflex cycle of repeatedly pressing the trigger. As for: (1) immediately dropping the magazine, (2) racking the slide, at least, twice before locking it back to look and feel, then (3) lowering the slide, (4) pointing the muzzle in a safe direction, and (5) finally pulling the trigger prior to takedown? It's purely second nature to me. I never, never, never just pull a semi-auto's trigger; and I always keep the muzzle clear of anything I'm unwilling to see destroyed.

Like any gun safety rule: If it isn't, also, A PERSONAL HABIT, then you haven't really learned the rule. A mental rule won't prevent an accident or keep you alive; but, a personal gun safety HABIT will. ;)



PS: My Marine Corps uncles taught me well! I started using firearms when I was only 9 years old. If I either missed the target or did anything - ANYTHING - other than what they had taught me to do with a gun, I had to pay, 'the ultimate price'. I wasn't allowed to shoot with them - Sometimes for up to a whole hour, or more. (Which can seem like, 'eternity' to a child.)

I never really thought about the way my uncles trained me to use firearms until one day when I was in my early 30's. I walked into Austin Behlert's gun shop, took a 1911 pattern out of a box, dropped the magazine, double or triple racked the slide, locked it open, and handed the piece to Austin. He was silent for a moment, looked at the gun, looked at me, and said, 'Thank you!'

When I asked him, 'What for?' he replied, 'You have no idea how many fellows come in here, and hand me a pistol with, at least, one in the chamber - Always without saying a word!' 'I'm often very busy, thinking about a lot of other things; and it drives me crazy whenever I rack a slide and a loaded round goes bouncing across the floor!' I was very flattered; I never forgot that morning; and I remain grateful to the 3 men whom I always thought were way too strict with me whenever it came to handling or shooting guns. (They weren't!) ;)