After a good shoot [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RWBlue
11-28-2012, 09:27
I think a lot of people prepare to defend themselves, but I don't think there is enough talk about what to do after you are forced to defend yourself.

I am not an expert at this. I will give a lead in and hopefully an expert will chime in. I am intentionally leaving the situation vague.

You are at home a sleep. Someone breaks in. There is a scuffle. The person doing the B&E is shot.

Now what?

BTW, This came up on a different board because of some questionable shoots and the more questionable actions of the shooter AFTER the fact.

Sam Spade
11-28-2012, 09:32
You get to safety. Call 911 for medical and LE help. Establish yourself as the victim, point out evidence, witnesses or accomplices (I'm being broader than your scenario). Then politely and properly lawyer up.

Dubble-Tapper
11-28-2012, 09:38
you then put the BG's on a tarp, execute them with one in the head, then wait til the next day to call authorities. seems thats acceptable by some of the people on here.

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 09:42
you then put the BG's on a tarp, execute them with one in the head, then wait til the next day to call authorities. seems thats acceptable by some of the people on here.

:rofl:

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 09:43
You get to safety. Call 911 for medical and LE help. Establish yourself as the victim, point out evidence, witnesses or accomplices (I'm being broader than your scenario). Then politely and properly lawyer up.

This.

/thread

ray9898
11-28-2012, 09:44
You get to safety. Call 911 for medical and LE help. Establish yourself as the victim, point out evidence, witnesses or accomplices (I'm being broader than your scenario). Then politely and properly lawyer up.

...and there it is. Self defense is an affirmitive defense which means it must be proven to justify a homicide, without critical information from the victim that can be impossible to prove on scene.

Butcher
11-28-2012, 09:47
You get to safety. Call 911 for medical and LE help. Establish yourself as the victim, point out evidence, witnesses or accomplices (I'm being broader than your scenario). Then politely and properly lawyer up.

Medical help?! You mean the coroner. You must be using a 9mm LOL


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Sam Spade
11-28-2012, 09:48
This.

/thread

:thanks:

I am, in fact, a trained professional.

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 09:52
:thanks:

I am, in fact, a trained professional.

:bowdown:

:supergrin:

clancy
11-28-2012, 10:10
:thanks:

I am, in fact, a trained professional.

Would you advise calling 911 or your lawyer first? I ask, because this is a topic discussed once with a couple of friends. One is a retired cop who feels it wise to call the lawyer first.

Hailstorm
11-28-2012, 10:15
You do what you need to do to protect yourself and family. Not your TV.

Then call 911 ASAP. When police arrive. Give basic info and a statement yuo need an lawyer. You will spend the night in the local PD. Relax. Don't try to explain everything. Your mind will forget things or confuse the timeframe. This can be used against you in court. Let the lawyer talk.

Be prepared to shell out alot of cash. I figure at least 50K for a good defense.

So, remember that if it is just your TV walking out the door.


Oh, expect a cival suit even if perp is dead. Lost wages.

arclight610
11-28-2012, 10:19
you then put the BG's on a tarp, execute them with one in the head, then wait til the next day to call authorities. seems thats acceptable by some of the people on here.

This is only acceptable if your Mini-14 jams

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 10:26
Would you advise calling 911 or your lawyer first? I ask, because this is a topic discussed once with a couple of friends. One is a retired cop who feels it wise to call the lawyer first.

You call 911 first and IMMEDIATELY because you are going to do everything you can to get medical aid to the POS that is bleeding in your house, even though he earned it. This will be key later.

When you hang up, you and your loved ones are in absolutely no danger at all, then you call your lawyer and give him heads up you will most likely be needing his services in very near order.

M2 Carbine
11-28-2012, 10:41
You are at home a sleep. Someone breaks in. There is a scuffle. The person doing the B&E is shot.

I assume you mean "shot" as dead.

Call 911 and tell them you shot an intruder in your home.


Then, assuming he woke me up, I'd probably make a pot of Coffee while I waited for the Sheriff.



ASAP, find out what works good to get blood stains out of the rug.

Sam Spade
11-28-2012, 10:47
Would you advise calling 911 or your lawyer first? I ask, because this is a topic discussed once with a couple of friends. One is a retired cop who feels it wise to call the lawyer first.

You have a lawyer that takes your calls at 0230? (Answering services emphatically don't count.)

That's the practical hurdle. The need to call 911 and establish yourself as the good concerned citizen who was concerned for life was well-covered by the sheriff above.

ray9898
11-28-2012, 10:51
You have a lawyer that takes your calls at 0230? (Answering services emphatically don't count.)


Well I learned on here last week the majority of people keep a criminal defense attorney on retainer.:tongueout:

ray9898
11-28-2012, 10:52
Would you advise calling 911 or your lawyer first? I ask, because this is a topic discussed once with a couple of friends. One is a retired cop who feels it wise to call the lawyer first.

Absolutely not. You will have plenty of time to make that call after you get the ball rolling.

fnfalman
11-28-2012, 10:53
I think a lot of people prepare to defend themselves, but I don't think there is enough talk about what to do after you are forced to defend yourself.

I am not an expert at this. I will give a lead in and hopefully an expert will chime in. I am intentionally leaving the situation vague.

You are at home a sleep. Someone breaks in. There is a scuffle. The person doing the B&E is shot.

Now what?

BTW, This came up on a different board because of some questionable shoots and the more questionable actions of the shooter AFTER the fact.

I'd take photos and boast on GlockTalk about what sort of badass gunfighter I am.

clancy
11-28-2012, 10:53
You have a lawyer that takes your calls at 0230? (Answering services emphatically don't count.)



As a matter of fact, I do. With the amount of money I have payed her the past 2 years, I have no doubt she hopes I call her so I can pay her even more.

I think I am working on putting unborn grandchildren through college. But believe me, she has been worth every penny.

Altaris
11-28-2012, 10:58
Well I learned on here last week the majority of people keep a criminal defense attorney on retainer.:tongueout:

That is what I was thinking too. :rofl:



For me to "call my lawyer" would be me pulling out my phone and doing a Google search for "lawyers in round rock, tx" :supergrin:

Sharky7
11-28-2012, 11:06
Would you advise calling 911 or your lawyer first? I ask, because this is a topic discussed once with a couple of friends. One is a retired cop who feels it wise to call the lawyer first.

That is some very bad advice he gave you. Find cover and call 911 immediately. Given the above scenario - you have no idea if there are more than 1-2 offenders. Get help there as soon as possible.

Also - just because you use your firearm does not mean it will end the life of the person you shoot. You shouldn't call your lawyer and be on the phone for 3-5 minutes while the bad guy you just shot bleeds out on your kitchen floor.

Even after you pull that trigger, you should treat it as a fluid evolving situation that could introduce more bad guys at any moment. Find your cover (reload) and get help on the way by calling 911. Once help arrives, be very vocal about who you are and holster up or place your gun down on the ground. SHOW YOUR HANDS! Now is no time for pissing matches - whatever the police tell you to do - DO IT. If they tell you to get on the ground and you don't want to get dirty, man up and get on the ground.

Then do what Sam said above.

Sharky7
11-28-2012, 11:08
Well I learned on here last week the majority of people keep a criminal defense attorney on retainer.:tongueout:

Hopefully our glocktalk resident expert the "Deputy" can chime in with some good advice as well.

RWBlue
11-28-2012, 11:10
:thanks:

I am, in fact, a trained professional.

A professional what?

I am a trained professional also, but my profession doesn't cover this.

17&27
11-28-2012, 12:34
So I take it an endzone type celebration with champagne followed by urinating on the carcass would be bad form?

beatcop
11-28-2012, 12:40
The reason for the joking is that this actually does come up pretty regularly and gets flogged into oblivion.

Read some articles by Massad Ayoob...he has discussed this a lot and offers sound advice.

I am in before the Don't talk to the Police youtube links are posted!!!!!! What do I win?

sheriff733
11-28-2012, 12:41
A professional what?

I am a trained professional also, but my profession doesn't cover this.

Professional Badass.

Hope that clears up your question.

:rofl:

Psychman
11-28-2012, 12:46
Call 911. Let them know that someone broke in your house and there has been a shooting and that you need paramedics and the police to be called. Turn on all the outside and inside lights you can. Do not give specific information to the 911 operator or the police. Wait for the police to get there. You have no legal obligation to assist the criminal. Make sure you are not armed and are in a well lit place in or outside of your home. Do EXACTLY what the police tell you to do once they get there. Tell them you want to contact your attorney before making any statements.

Sam Spade
11-28-2012, 13:03
A professional what?

I am a trained professional also, but my profession doesn't cover this.

Cop. Investigator. Firearms Instructor. Court-recognized expert witness. And some other related stuff.

Of course, it's the Internet, so I might be a dog. And that means you ought to get yourself to Ayoob's course, because he'll show up at your trial and I won't.

Glock20 10mm
11-28-2012, 13:06
You get to safety. Call 911 for medical and LE help. Establish yourself as the victim, point out evidence, witnesses or accomplices (I'm being broader than your scenario). Then politely and properly lawyer up.

Note the sequence of the highlighted text... THIS is important.

Glock20 10mm
11-28-2012, 13:10
<INTENDED HUMOR> Ya know, us mountain folk jes Shoot, Shovel and Shut UP! </INTENDED HUMOR>

RWBlue
11-28-2012, 13:13
The reason for the joking is that this actually does come up pretty regularly and gets flogged into oblivion.

Read some articles by Massad Ayoob...he has discussed this a lot and offers sound advice.

I am in before the Don't talk to the Police youtube links are posted!!!!!! What do I win?

I don't mind the joking as long as people know it is joking.

I don't see this thread much. I posted this on several different forums and I am amazed at the different responses. I think many people are ready to shoot someone (if necessary), but vary few are ready for the aftermath.

If someone has the BEST answer, I would love to see a sticky. Then again, I don't think every situation is the same. As I have another thread.

RWBlue
11-28-2012, 13:18
Cop. Investigator. Firearms Instructor. Court-recognized expert witness. And some other related stuff.

Of course, it's the Internet, so I might be a dog. And that means you ought to get yourself to Ayoob's course, because he'll show up at your trial and I won't.

I would rather not have to shoot anyone else.

And I would fear going to training on this, might be an issue if I ever had to shoot anyone.

17&27
11-28-2012, 13:33
Here's a plan.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhSKQ_Hq-V0

Sam Spade
11-28-2012, 13:34
I would rather not have to shoot anyone else.

And I would fear going to training on this, might be an issue if I ever had to shoot anyone.

Your seeking out training can be brought out by the prosecution/plaintiff; I've seen it first-hand. It's kinda a sign of desperation: can't get you on the facts or circumstances, can't get you on the law, so let's make you look (gasp) like a trained killer. But it's a red-herring that your team should have no problem in handling: you spent your time and money to make yourself more competent (safer) in gun handling and more circumspect about the law regulating your conduct.

Plus, your training goes directly to your mindset and decision making, which is what's really on trial when you assert self-defense. That means your instructor becomes a material witness and the course material gets introduced as evidence. Ayoob, for example, uses videos for key parts of his instruction. Now the jury gets to see the same video so that they can decide if your decision was reasonable in light of the facts known to you at the time, through the lens of your training and experience.

Assuming reputable classes and a "good shoot" as you stated in your OP, I don't think there's *any* downside to being trained.

beatcop
11-28-2012, 13:35
Massad Ayoob (Aftermath Shooting) - YouTube
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/3-most-common-post-shooting-errors

Louisville Glocker
11-28-2012, 13:38
Most of the comments here have been spot on.

You've just had a shooting at your house. Make sure there is no longer a threat. That could mean a possible second intruder, or simply making sure the first one has been eliminated. But. yes, people often work in teams, so do NOT let your guard down.

Call 911 ASAP. Tell them what happened (burglar, you shot him, there seems to be no further threat). Stay on the line. They'll probably want to know what you're wearing, etc, to avoid problems.

Re-holster your gun. If no holster in your house (I always keep my guns in holsters even if I'm not wearing them), keep your gun nearby. You don't want to be holding a gun when LE shows up.

The lawyer issue is the last thing you want to think about. As others have said, tell the basics to establish yourself as the victim (the guy came in through my back door, and I shot him, then I shot him, or whatever). The less you say the better, frankly. Tell the officers you'd like to speak to your lawyer before making any more statements. You won't get in trouble for something you don't say.

Again, the most important thing is the safety of yourself and others in the house. Lawyer stuff comes later (but keep your mouth shut after you're all safe).

milspecnsn
11-28-2012, 13:42
Would it be beneficial to keep the line open to 911 as circumstances unfold?


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Louisville Glocker
11-28-2012, 13:46
Massad Ayoob (Aftermath Shooting) - YouTube (www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4)
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/3-most-common-post-shooting-errors

This video is great advice.

Nice job Mas....

Louisville Glocker
11-28-2012, 13:48
Would it be beneficial to keep the line open to 911 as circumstances unfold?


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Yes, and they will request that you do so. Please do not hang up.

Dragoon44
11-28-2012, 14:03
you then put the BG's on a tarp, execute them with one in the head, then wait til the next day to call authorities. seems thats acceptable by some of the people on here.

Then some are crazy. I mean Jeez the body is going to start to smell if you wait that long.

:cool:

F14Scott
11-28-2012, 14:13
I subscribe to Texas Law Shield, a legal team that, for a small annual retainer, will be my lawyer in case of a shooting related incident.

Their legal advice to their clients is:

http://www.uslawshield.com/texas/after-bang-plan/

WHAT TO DO AFTER BANG
So You Had To Use A Gun, What Now?

The moments after you have used a gun are critical. If you do or say the incorrect thing, it may mean the difference between keeping your legal rights and waiving them. These legal rights may ultimately be the difference between preserving your freedom, or not! Therefore, our law firm recommends that our clients follow these procedures if they have used a gun.

Make sure the threat has been controlled and remain at the scene. If not, find a safe place and remain there.

Call 911, request police and ambulance – do not say anything other than your name, location, send police and ambulance, and that you have been a victim of a crime. The 911 call is recorded – Say Nothing Else!

Call your attorneys! Call the emergency hotline number on the back of your Firearms Program Member ID card.

Wait for authorities.

Return your weapon to safe keeping – do not keep it in your hands – you may be mistaken for a bad guy.

Do not disturb the scene or remove physical evidence.

Do not refuse medical treatment.

When police arrive comply with all commands in a neutral non-threatening manner, keeping your hands clear. Until they sort it out, the police do not know the good guys from the bad guys!

Inform the police you have been a victim of a crime and provide your statistical data, such as name, address, telephone, etc. – nothing else! State to the police: “I wish to invoke my right to remain silent and I want my attorney.”

Make no statement to anyone, wait to talk to your attorney. If you just shot someone, you are in no state to answer detailed questions. Silence is likely your best option.

Do not speak to the media.

If asked to accompany law enforcement, comply, but make no statements!

When your lawyer arrives, follow their advice explicitly.

Do not make any jokes or cute remarks. These may be used against you!

Even if you feel you have done nothing wrong, make no statements! Talk to your lawyer first!

877-448-6839
NON-EMERGENCY PHONE NUMBER

Texas Law Shield, LLP
A Legal Services Company
1020 Bay Area Blvd Suite 220
Houston, Texas 77058

*ASH*
11-28-2012, 14:19
you then put the BG's on a tarp, execute them with one in the head, then wait til the next day to call authorities. seems thats acceptable by some of the people on here.

:rofl: THIS ,
but seriously if you dont know what to do then you dont need a gun ,you obviously

SSS

pittsaero
11-28-2012, 14:20
I was always told, tell the police the BG tried to kill you, you will cooperate but want your lawyer, then SHUT UP

Ftttu
11-28-2012, 14:20
I would immediately find my wallet and fetch my hunting license. Then, I would attach the tag as per law. You don't want those pesky game wardens catching you on that.

In reality, just like the above posters say, get 911 coming as soon as you can make the call from safety. But...................don't mess with the scene in any way or you may be charged with tampering with evidence. You may get posters telling you to "drag that bad guy inside your property", "put a weapon in their hands", "put a valuable item of yours in their hands", etc.

After your safety is not an issue, start thinking about your defense because it is still considered a homicide(if the bad guy dies). You have defenses per the law but you don't have a right. Further on the down the road, you will probably be sued for a wrongful death, but only keep that in the back of your mind during these types of incidents. The protection of life and/or property should be the immediate thought process at that critical time.

*ASH*
11-28-2012, 14:21
I was always told, tell the police the BG tried to kill you, you will cooperate but want your lawyer, then SHUT UP

yeah that too

never talk to police

Ftttu
11-28-2012, 14:27
yeah that too

never talk to police

This even goes for the police when they are involved in a shooting themselves. Contacting your attorney is unbelievably important.

I hope all you Texas out there who rely on common sense for their self defense knowledge, study Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code. That is the Texas bible for using force against another. Remember, you don't have a right, but you may have a lawful defense.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

larry_minn
11-28-2012, 14:31
Well I learned on here last week the majority of people keep a criminal defense attorney on retainer.:tongueout:

It does NOT require $$$ to line up a lawyer. Find one NOW. I have visited with three lawyers over yrs. None have charged me a cent. (for meet/greet) They gave me business card, took down some personal info, wrote down their cell phone # with instruction to call ANYTIME I needed.
Thing is they keep retiring. (and I never call them)

ray9898
11-28-2012, 14:53
This even goes for the police when they are involved in a shooting themselves. Contacting your attorney is unbelievably important.



The normal procedure for an LEO is no different than the advice posted earlier. The agency expects the officer to provide an account of what transpired to point them in the right direction. When that is complete they welcome the officer to consult an attorney to compile a more detailed version of events.

Ftttu
11-28-2012, 16:23
The normal procedure for an LEO is no different than the advice posted earlier. The agency expects the officer to provide an account of what transpired to point them in the right direction. When that is complete they welcome the officer to consult an attorney to compile a more detailed version of events.

I'm FOP, and while we were at one of our meetings, we had some of our attorneys present along with an FOP member who is IA. You should have seen the back and forth argument about this very subject. We know what policy says but we also know what our rights are in reference to self incrimination.

According to our policy, we HAVE to give a statement soon after the incident-something a civilian isn't required to do.