View Full Version : Lost a friend yesterday and I'm good with it.....
.264 magnum
11-28-2012, 11:04
Over the last 1.5 years or so I'd become pretty good friends, in a superficial guy-buddy kind of way, with a man from an ex-Eastern Block country. He's extremely well educated, successful and worldly and decent. Or so I thought.
Scene - inside my man cave last night, everyone armed.
This guy, "Bill", and another friend of mine, "Fred", and I had put a good dent in bottle of MacAllan 15 Fine Oak and the conversation drifted to politics, economics, and such. All good so far. Then I brought up oil, that led to the current Israeli/Palestinian conundrum. And then Fred mentioned his several years of service in the IDF and his life in Israel. Bill without any hesitation segues into a tired and bankrupt rant about the holocaust being over blown with maybe 50,000 total Jews gassed etc. Jews are scheming scum bags who trick and seduce everyone else into a kind of passive enslavement blah, blah, blah - AND HE WOULD NOT STOP. I asked him to stop. And again. And again. After maybe 20/30 seconds of Julius Sctreicher quality BS NAZI speak Fred got up, looked at me and said, "I'm leaving". I said, "no you are not Bill is". To which Bill said, "if I leave now 'WE WILL NEVER SPEAK AGAIN'". I walked him to the door.
I'm still pissed.
1. I'm shocked I had no inkling that Bill was a super bigot and NAZI admiring holocaust denier.
2. Fred was very cool about it all afterwards.
fnfalman
11-28-2012, 11:07
You'd be amazed at the sort of people who are Jew haters.
One of my nephews is probably a card carrying neo-Nazi the way he talks about Jews. Now, check this out, he's 1/4 Asian. Of course, the German half of his is probably uber alles.
Over the last 1.5 years or so I'd become pretty good friends, in a superficial guy-buddy kind of way, with a man from an ex-Eastern Block country. He's extremely well educated, successful and worldly and decent. Or so I thought.
Scene - inside my man cave last night, everyone armed.
This guy, "Bill", and another friend of mine, "Fred", and I had put a good dent in bottle of MacAllan 15 Fine Oak and the conversation drifted to politics, economics, and such. All good so far. Then I brought up oil, that led to the current Israeli/Palestinian conundrum. And then Fred mentioned his several years of service in the IDF and his life in Israel. Bill without any hesitation segues into a tired and bankrupt rant about the holocaust being over blown with maybe 50,000 total Jews gassed etc. Jews are scheming scum bags who trick and seduce everyone else into a kind of passive enslavement blah, blah, blah - AND HE WOULD NOT STOP. I asked him to stop. And again. And again. After maybe 20/30 seconds of Julius Sctreicher quality BS NAZI speak Fred got up, looked at me and said, "I'm leaving". I said, "no you are not Bill is". To which Bill said, "if I leave now 'WE WILL NEVER SPEAK AGAIN'". I walked him to the door.
I'm still pissed.
1. I'm shocked I had no inkling that Bill was a super bigot and NAZI admiring holocaust denier.
2. Fred was very cool about it all afterwards.
Over the last 1.5 years or so I'd become pretty good friends, in a superficial guy-buddy kind of way, with a man from an ex-Eastern Block country. He's extremely well educated, successful and worldly and decent. Or so I thought.
Scene - inside my man cave last night, everyone armed.
This guy, "Bill", and another friend of mine, "Fred", and I had put a good dent in bottle of MacAllan 15 Fine Oak and the conversation drifted to politics, economics, and such. All good so far. Then I brought up oil, that led to the current Israeli/Palestinian conundrum. And then Fred mentioned his several years of service in the IDF and his life in Israel. Bill without any hesitation segues into a tired and bankrupt rant about the holocaust being over blown with maybe 50,000 total Jews gassed etc. Jews are scheming scum bags who trick and seduce everyone else into a kind of passive enslavement blah, blah, blah - AND HE WOULD NOT STOP. I asked him to stop. And again. And again. After maybe 20/30 seconds of Julius Sctreicher quality BS NAZI speak Fred got up, looked at me and said, "I'm leaving". I said, "no you are not Bill is". To which Bill said, "if I leave now 'WE WILL NEVER SPEAK AGAIN'". I walked him to the door.
I'm still pissed.
1. I'm shocked I had no inkling that Bill was a super bigot and NAZI admiring holocaust denier.
2. Fred was very cool about it all afterwards.
sounds like you handled that perfectly, screw "Bill".
Santa CruZin
11-28-2012, 11:36
Bill defined your friendship right then and there. Good riddance.
LawScholar
11-28-2012, 11:42
Screw that guy. Good call.
Tx-SIG229
11-28-2012, 11:45
What made you want to be friends with Bill in the first place?
Be friendly to everyone but have a plan to kill them..... Just in case...
Chuck TX
11-28-2012, 11:49
The scary thing is, that's not all too uncommon these days. I myself have been surprised by some folks.
aplcr0331
11-28-2012, 11:54
A while back I was reading about holocaust deniers. Interesting bunch that is for sure. I got so far down one worm hole that I found out many deniers believe President Eisenhower was not an American citizen. Our first birther conspiracy (that's right our first birther conspiracy - right before the Nixon birther consiracy and the Bush conspiracy (GH not GW). In order for the deniers to get to where they needed to be they hypothized that Eisenhower was a Jew born in Austria.
You handled that very well.
.264 magnum
11-28-2012, 12:02
What made you want to be friends with Bill in the first place?
Be friendly to everyone but have a plan to kill them..... Just in case...
Shooting. I met him at a local indoor range.
Another example of why not to drink armed or otherwise have dangerous objects nearby.
This assclown could have been a few shots full of booze away from starting a gunfight. That is just drama you don't need.
.264 magnum
11-28-2012, 12:12
Another example of why not to drink armed or otherwise have dangerous objects nearby.
This assclown could have been a few shots full of booze away from starting a gunfight. That is just drama you don't need.
No question, I've been thinking about that. For the record we each had two drinks over the course of about three hours, none of us was near intoxication.
When my wife and kids are out - and they were last evening - I allow my friends to pack in my house. I may have to re-think that rule.
Tough situation for a 'friend' to put you in.
What's especially strange to me is how some knucklehead would go off on that sort of rant right after someone else in the room just mentioned they'd lived in Israel and served in the IDF for years. It shows such a bizarre lack of basic human etiquette that it just floors me. It's like...
Person A: My mom recently passed away from cancer.
Person B: Wooo, yay cancer! I love cancer! I hate moms! Families suck, go cancer!
I just...I mean, even if what you're saying isn't ridiculous and offensive and dehumanizing and conspiracy-theorist/anti-Semitic bull****, isn't it just really bizarre to go off on that rant right after someone else said they'd served in the IDF? Take a social clue, buddy. Pay attention to the attitudes of the people around you before you go off on weird rants.
Flying-Dutchman
11-28-2012, 13:21
A former neighbor of mine, a highly educated engineer, was a Croat from the former Yugoslavia and he told some wild WWII stories.
After a short while I realized he was on the wrong side and proud of it.
I only wish my dad was alive to hear his stories as he was a pilot too. Fortunately no politics were discussed.
As far as your ex-friend, he sounds like a jerk trying to start a fight with views influenced by his relatives who possibly fought on the Axis side.
cowboywannabe
11-28-2012, 13:32
maybe he was an American jew, you know, the kind that dont support Israeli jews.
maybe he was an American jew, you know, the kind that dont support Israeli jews.
Even "anti-zionist" type American Jews are pretty well lined up against Holocaust denial.
Scene - inside my man cave last night, everyone armed.
This guy, "Bill", and another friend of mine, "Fred", and I had put a good dent in bottle of MacAllan 15 Fine Oak and the conversation drifted to politics
Sorry about your friend. What the hell were you doing drinking while armed?
Edited to tone it down now that I see you've addressed this already. Still, though. No good can come from mixing booze and guns.
cowboywannabe
11-28-2012, 14:40
Even "anti-zionist" type American Jews are pretty well lined up against Holocaust denial.
thats because its a convenient victim banner for them.....when it comes time to stand up for Israel, American jews are amazingly absent from the front lines (generally).
thats because its a convenient victim banner for them.....when it comes time to stand up for Israel, American jews are amazingly absent from the front lines (generally).
I disagree and think you are out of your mind if you think American Jews use the Holocaust as a "convenient banner" instead of having a very sincere and deep belief in the nature of the Holocaust and its meaning to the Jewish people.
I would also say that most American Jews are pro Israel...and of course, like many things in life people support, it doesnt mean a lot of them are going to do much about it but you paint with far too broad a brush, plenty of American Jews do a LOT for the sake of Israel.
Not only the Jews are hated.
You'd be Amazed how many Christians are also hated!
And right on Glock Talk.
OP! You did the right thing!!!!!!!!!
Fear Night
11-28-2012, 14:46
I knew I wouldn't get along with Bill right after you described him as "worldly".
First thing that comes to mind when I hear that is a guy that bashes the US for not being more like Europe, while he sips on Starbucks and checks for when the new iPhone comes out on his iPad.
cowboywannabe
11-28-2012, 14:48
I disagree and think you are out of your mind if you think American Jews use the Holocaust as a "convenient banner" instead of having a very sincere and deep belief in the nature of the Holocaust and its meaning to the Jewish people.
I would also say that most American Jews are pro Israel...and of course, like many things in life people support, it doesnt mean a lot of them are going to do much about it but you paint with far too broad a brush, plenty of American Jews do a LOT for the sake of Israel.
it was a broad brush, maybe a little too broad. being pro israel is not just waving the flag when its fashionable, which seems to be the thing with jews here.....again generally, broad brush curtailed a bit.
Having principles sometimes requires us to do difficult things.
Congratulations on your handling it.
When I was in grade school my family had two large books. I believe they were called "The Colliers Photographic History of World Wars I and II.
It consisted of photographs (re-prints) taken all over the battlefields and included a large section on Nazi Concentration Camps. I remember the bodies stacked like cord wood, the piles of teeth with Gold for recovery, the ovens, the allies "liberating" the camps and generally the grotesque side of Germany's treatment of those selected for death.
I cannot believe anyone can deny the horrible things that took place or the tremendous numbers of victims.
It was real and anyone that said otherwise is a fool.
it was a broad brush, maybe a little too broad. being pro israel is not just waving the flag when its fashionable, which seems to be the thing with jews here.....again generally, broad brush curtailed a bit.
That is being pro Israel. You need to understand that. That is a group of peope who will not take action against Israel (specifically against Israel) They are making their position known, and it is pro Israel.
Of course there are people who do much more but you cant say that the flag waving crowd is somehow not pro Israel because you dont think they do enough or do it often enough.
1 is still positive number. Even in the light of 100 being a much greater number, 1 still remains positive.
it was a broad brush, maybe a little too broad. being pro israel is not just waving the flag when its fashionable, which seems to be the thing with jews here.....again generally, broad brush curtailed a bit.
You know nothing about us.
LSUAdman
11-28-2012, 15:15
OP - good job for sticking to your guns, so to speak.
While I havent been in the awkward situation that you were in, I've begun to proactively distance myself from "friends" who don't share similiar beliefs as I do. I've found the amount of arguements and disapointments are lesser, and I dont really miss them.
Sometimes we toss around the "friend" label too loosely. A friend is someone whom you'd turn to in trouble, or let raise their child if they died. Not someone you occasionally see and might share a drink with. That's an aquaintance.
Mrs.Cicero
11-28-2012, 15:21
You handled it very well.
I do not have a problem with people having a beer or wine while carrying. The guns must stay in their holsters in my house after the bottle is opened, however. I see no reason to treat my friends as if they are children when they are drinking. If, however, they begin to act like children, they are quickly demoted to acquaintance and no longer invited over for drinks.
Sounds like you handled that just right, I would've handled it the same way. If Bill is that much of a moron, there is no way he'd be my friend any longer.
KommieforniaGlocker
11-28-2012, 15:48
thats because its a convenient victim banner for them.....when it comes time to stand up for Israel, American jews are amazingly absent from the front lines (generally).
You don't know alot of American Jews do you??
:dunno:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/breaking_news/record_104_north_american_recruits_join_idf
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3433726,00.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edm8fpuP9gY
cowboywannabe
11-28-2012, 16:09
Rabi, i will concead this debate.....i just havent seen (from the American jews i knew) the fire that would make me believe they would take up arms without hesitation in support of Israel, it surely isnt reflected in their political choices here lately.
id much rather have benjamin netanyahu on my side than jerry seinfeld and jon stewart.
i know there are some hard core jewish dudes here but they are over shadowed by what seems to be those with apathy or nothing more than strong words.
i wonder how many American jews will go to Israel (to fight for her) when the real fighting starts? hum?
seriously...http://www.brandeis.edu/cmjs/pdfs/TheNewPhilanthropy.pdf
saddlebum
11-28-2012, 16:23
OP - good job for sticking to your guns, so to speak.
While I havent been in the awkward situation that you were in, I've begun to proactively distance myself from "friends" who don't share similiar beliefs as I do. I've found the amount of arguements and disapointments are lesser, and I dont really miss them.
Sometimes we toss around the "friend" label too loosely. A friend is someone whom you'd turn to in trouble, or let raise their child if they died. Not someone you occasionally see and might share a drink with. That's an aquaintance.
this^^^^^^
This type of crap is pretty typical for Eastern Europe.
Shame.
Glock&KimberLady
11-28-2012, 16:35
Dang. Just...dang.
I have nothing more worthwhile to add other than congratulations on your restraint. Smetimes when people are off on idiotic rants and gaining steam, the only way to get them to stop is with the physical equivalent of STFU...i.e., a good, old-fashioned ass-kicking.
.264 magnum
11-28-2012, 17:09
Thanks for the reasoned responses. I'm in the middle of a work fail so I'll have to respond in detail later.
I never understood the whole Jew hating thing. Is it strictly religion based? How do you even know what somebody's religion is?
I see this crap about ZOG and other anti-Jewish stuff and can't figure it out. Am I missing something?
aplcr0331
11-28-2012, 17:13
Rabi, i will concead this debate.....i just havent seen (from the American jews i knew) the fire that would make me believe they would take up arms without hesitation in support of Israel, it surely isnt reflected in their political choices here lately.
id much rather have benjamin netanyahu on my side than jerry seinfeld and jon stewart.
i know there are some hard core jewish dudes here but they are over shadowed by what seems to be those with apathy or nothing more than strong words.
i wonder how many American jews will go to Israel (to fight for her) when the real fighting starts? hum?
Plus, how many American Jews voted for Obama? More than voted for Romney? Was this anti-mormonism setniment or something else? You'd think the disrespect shown to Jewish leaders by Obama would have swayed the US Jewish vote for Romney. (I'm assuming more American Jews voted for Obama than for Romney I may very well be wrong on that).
aplcr0331
11-28-2012, 17:15
I never understood the whole Jew hating thing. Is it strictly religion based? How do you even know what somebody's religion is?
I see this crap about ZOG and other anti-Jewish stuff and can't figure it out. Am I missing something?
Everyone needs a boogeyman. It just so happens that the Jews happen to really boogey with a lot of people. Muslims, African-Americans, some Caucasian-Americans, etc.
No question, I've been thinking about that. For the record we each had two drinks over the course of about three hours, none of us was near intoxication.
When my wife and kids are out - and they were last evening - I allow my friends to pack in my house. I may have to re-think that rule.
Nothing wrong with that...I allow all my friends to carry in my home. But, by "friends" I mean true friends...which you should be able to count on one hand. A guy I recently met at a gun range would not qualify.
And as far as the Jews/Holocaust thing...I've often wondered why people think it's ok for Jews to hang on to the holocaust, but not ok for blacks to cling to slavery.
NeverMore1701
11-28-2012, 17:33
http://www.sectalk.com/boards/images/imported/2011/02/WellBye-1.jpg
ithaca_deerslayer
11-28-2012, 17:48
Cool.
Aren't entire countries on record as wanting to murder all Israelis? Maybe even all Jews?
And as far as the Jews/Holocaust thing...I've often wondered why people think it's ok for Jews to hang on to the holocaust, but not ok for blacks to cling to slavery.
Do Jews/libs throw the Holocaust in peoples face all the time and demand reparations or try to paint a picture of bigotry/racism in America?
Are there any former slaves living?
What would happen if someone said slavery wasnt a big deal as the op's "friend" did about the Holocaust?
Do Jews/libs throw the Holocaust in peoples face all the time and demand reparations or try to paint a picture of bigotry/racism in America?
Are there any former slaves living?
What would happen if someone said slavery wasnt a big deal as the op's "friend" did about the Holocaust?
Good point...which leads me to this: I would venture to guess that the only ones who are entitled to whine about the holocaust should be the living holocaust survivors, just as the only ones entitled to whine about slavery would be any living blacks who were once slaves.
It's really 2 sides of the same coin...both were wrong, both are history.
I'm 52. I'm half German and half Polish. My mother was German. (I was actually born in Germany) She was a painter and we used to drive to an old Jewish guys shop that made picture frames. They did business for years.
He still had the numbers tattooed on his forearm. My mother told me that if he ever asked, we were Swedish, not German.
Doing the *Right Thing* sure feels good!
Nicely Played, Nicely Played...
Yer a good man, for sure.
Rabi, i will concead this debate.....i just havent seen (from the American jews i knew) the fire that would make me believe they would take up arms without hesitation in support of Israel, it surely isnt reflected in their political choices here lately.
id much rather have benjamin netanyahu on my side than jerry seinfeld and jon stewart.
i know there are some hard core jewish dudes here but they are over shadowed by what seems to be those with apathy or nothing more than strong words.
i wonder how many American jews will go to Israel (to fight for her) when the real fighting starts? hum?
besides not really understanding the Jewish population (in it broad and varied sense) I think your expectations are pretty damned unreasonable.
Do you expect pro-Mexico Mexican Americans to take up arms for the sake of Mexico? Is that the only way they can prove the are pro Mexico enough for you?
Anti-semitism is damn near endemic to a lot of Eastern Europe. My stepdad was from Slovenia in the former Yugoslavia, and you would hear the most outlandish things come out of his mouth about Jews, while I was growing up.
What's interesting is that when I asked him about the personal experiences he'd had with Jews, there weren't any. From the way he talked, you got the impression that evil Jewish landlords had run everything that the evil Jewish bankers and merchants didn't. But, the reality was that he'd never personally encountered or dealt with a Jew at all, nor had his family. From the vehemence and animosity he displayed, you'd have thought he had personal experience with someone taking the family farm, or something along those lines. Didn't happen.
Ran into a lot of the same stuff from other expat Yugoslavs he knew--Massive hatred of Jews, no actual experience with them. About all I can offer as an explanation is that the German propaganda they got hit with during WWII must have been incredibly persuasive, or that anti-Semitism is damn near a bedrock item in the culture for many European nations.
To a degree, it's like dealing with Arabs: Going in, you have to acknowledge that you're going to hear a whole lot of things that just don't make sense. Arabs are probably the biggest conspiracy-theory fans I've ever run into, as an ethnicity. Same-same with a lot of Eastern Europeans, concerning the Jews and other issues.
Good point...which leads me to this: I would venture to guess that the only ones who are entitled to whine about the holocaust should be the living holocaust survivors, just as the only ones entitled to whine about slavery would be any living blacks who were once slaves.
It's really 2 sides of the same coin...both were wrong, both are history.
I have met far more black people who pull the whole "My ancestors were slaves so you need to treat me special" than I have ever met any jews who have pulled the holocaust card. Don't know why the jews don't pull that card more often. If I had to guess, I'd say it's because they've wizened up, realized it doesn't work, and they have accepted that it didn't happen to them and they shouldn't benefit from it.
Slavery was bad, the holocaust was bad, it's in the past, lets keep it there.
Plus, how many American Jews voted for Obama? More than voted for Romney? Was this anti-mormonism setniment or something else? You'd think the disrespect shown to Jewish leaders by Obama would have swayed the US Jewish vote for Romney. (I'm assuming more American Jews voted for Obama than for Romney I may very well be wrong on that).
I have tried to explain this many times. For some reason people just dont get it (I am not saying that is you)
Besides the fact that many people (educated in particular, as the Jews tend to be) are NOT single issue voters.
The other big one is, Who is the proponent of freedom? The Democrats or the Republicans? Republican types have a real hard time understanding that a LOT of people (obviously) think the Republicans are the party of oppression.
On one side you have a group of people (Republicans) who are against things. They are against Gays, Monorities, anything that isnt Christian....They are the party of "speak English or get out" They are the party of "We are going to figure out how to get rid of 20 million(illegals) people living here..." They are the party that wants to tell woman what to do with their bodies, often based on a fath tht 80% of the people in the world dont believel.... Oh, and the Republicans suck with the money as well. They have their own sacred cows and seem to want to go to war with everyone. At best they can manage the decay better than the Dems. (it doesnt matter how much of it is true, plenty of people feel that way and most people know that)...
Now, on the other side you have the Democrats. They want to bring everyone along for the ride. In particular, everyone who is NOT a white Christian male. They advocate for the little guy and the oppressed. The are the party of yes. They suck with the money as well. But in spite of all the harsh words about them, They actually have a better record than the Republicans when it comes to winning wars and the economy (that is true)
So, you are a Jew. You have an inate fear about oppression and the like. You probably like the Republicans financial ideas better but you like your freedom more.
Is it any surprise why many Jews (or anyone who is not a white Christian male) votes Democratic?
Good point...which leads me to this: I would venture to guess that the only ones who are entitled to whine about the holocaust should be the living holocaust survivors, just as the only ones entitled to whine about slavery would be any living blacks who were once slaves.
It's really 2 sides of the same coin...both were wrong, both are history.
By that logic, the only folks who can fly a Confederate battle flag are living veterans of the Civil War.
ETA: Also, +1 to everything Rabbi just said (and it applies to an awful lot of other people, not just Jews).
I have tried to explain this many times. For some reason people just dont get it (I am not saying that is you)
Besides the fact that many people (educated in particular, as the Jews tend to be) are NOT single issue voters.
The other big one is, Who is the proponent of freedom? The Democrats or the Republicans? Republican types have a real hard time understanding that a LOT of people (obviously) think the Republicans are the party of oppression.
On one side you have a group of people (Republicans) who are against things. They are against Gays, Monorities, anything that isnt Christian....They are the party of "speak English or get out" They are the party of "We are going to figure out how to get rid of 20 million(illegals) people living here..." They are the party that wants to tell woman what to do with their bodies, often based on a fath tht 80% of the people in the world dont believel.... Oh, and the Republicans suck with the money as well. They have their own sacred cows and seem to want to go to war with everyone. At best they can manage the decay better than the Dems. (it doesnt matter how much of it is true, plenty of people feel that way and most people know that)...
Now, on the other side you have the Democrats. They want to bring everyone along for the ride. In particular, everyone who is NOT a white Christian male. They advocate for the little guy and the oppressed. The are the party of yes. They suck with the money as well. But in spite of all the harsh words about them, They actually have a better record than the Republicans when it comes to winning wars and the economy (that is true)
So, you are a Jew. You have an inate fear about oppression and the like. You probably like the Republicans financial ideas better but you like your freedom more.
Is it any surprise why many Jews (or anyone who is not a white Christian male) votes Democratic?
No, people really don't seem to understand that fact. They just see "Oh my god, the republican party is awesome and perfect, why aren't people voting for us? There is no way Obama should win, I think he's evil, which means everybody else knows for a fact he's evil, so why do they vote for him?" And they have no idea that the majority of people think Republicans are all stupid morons, and they laugh at how stupid they think republicans are. Hell, even the middle of the road people that I know, who usually lean republican, were laughing at Romney and calling him an idiot, and saying the republican party needs to worry about the country, instead of themselves, if they want to win.
No, people really don't seem to understand that fact. They just see "Oh my god, the republican party is awesome and perfect, why aren't people voting for us? There is no way Obama should win, I think he's evil, which means everybody else knows for a fact he's evil, so why do they vote for him?" And they have no idea that the majority of people think Republicans are all stupid morons, and they laugh at how stupid they think republicans are. Hell, even the middle of the road people that I know, who usually lean republican, were laughing at Romney and calling him an idiot, and saying the republican party needs to worry about the country, instead of themselves, if they want to win.
Yes.
Republican/conservative/Christian right type simply dont understand one important thing, a lot of good and important people see them as the real (or bigger) enemy of freedom and rights.
I am a classical liberal myself. Most people you tell that to figure that means I am a liberal. Such people are idiots and outside of people who think Religion should be part of government, most people who claim to be Republican/conservative are classical liberals. (again, most of the people on Glock Talk, if they knew what classical liberalism was would say...OMG, yes, that is me)
The Republicans are NOT what we need (although I hold my nose and vote that way)...but a lot of people hold their nose and vote Democrat.
The simple truth is this, if you were NOT the *majority* and you had a choice between the majority group who seems to hate you and anyone who is not them, or being governed by someone who is for you but it might cost more....who are you going to pick?
Some people dont mind the price. Republicans need to understand that. They dont and they got the worst POTUS in US history elected twice because of it.
The really funny thing that I get a kick out of with the people on GT, is they claim republican, they claim small, unobtrusive government. But they want the government to be as big and as obtrusive as possible, so the government can force everyone to follow their personal beliefs. But the government better not force them to do anything, because that's wrong and unconstitutional. But it's perfectly fine if the government forces everybody else to do stuff they don't want.
RenoF250
11-28-2012, 21:38
I had a customer go off on an anti-holocaust diatribe once. Didn't really know what to do except sit there thinking "wow, people like this do exist."
I am fairly social unacceptable but some people make me look like Mr. Manners.
aplcr0331
11-28-2012, 21:49
I have tried to explain this many times. For some reason people just dont get it (I am not saying that is you)
Besides the fact that many people (educated in particular, as the Jews tend to be) are NOT single issue voters.
The other big one is, Who is the proponent of freedom? The Democrats or the Republicans? Republican types have a real hard time understanding that a LOT of people (obviously) think the Republicans are the party of oppression.
On one side you have a group of people (Republicans) who are against things. They are against Gays, Monorities, anything that isnt Christian....They are the party of "speak English or get out" They are the party of "We are going to figure out how to get rid of 20 million(illegals) people living here..." They are the party that wants to tell woman what to do with their bodies, often based on a fath tht 80% of the people in the world dont believel.... Oh, and the Republicans suck with the money as well. They have their own sacred cows and seem to want to go to war with everyone. At best they can manage the decay better than the Dems. (it doesnt matter how much of it is true, plenty of people feel that way and most people know that)...
Now, on the other side you have the Democrats. They want to bring everyone along for the ride. In particular, everyone who is NOT a white Christian male. They advocate for the little guy and the oppressed. The are the party of yes. They suck with the money as well. But in spite of all the harsh words about them, They actually have a better record than the Republicans when it comes to winning wars and the economy (that is true)
So, you are a Jew. You have an inate fear about oppression and the like. You probably like the Republicans financial ideas better but you like your freedom more.
Is it any surprise why many Jews (or anyone who is not a white Christian male) votes Democratic?
Well worded post, I get what you are saying. I was trying to find the Jewish voting record here in America in the interim and it seems they did turn out more for the Democrats than for the Republicans.
I also ran across those statistics about the high percentage of Jewish people in the Forbes 400 richest Americans, the high (relative to their population numbers) amount of Jewish Nobel prize winners (not peace awards, but Chemistry, Physics, etc) and of course the very high testing scores (GRE/SAT, etc.) and education attainment of the Ashkenazim.
Always a fascinating subject (and heated too).
NeverMore1701
11-28-2012, 21:58
Dang Jews and their Jewiness! I swear they're just lurking on their JewNet, coordinating to plant seeds of division amongst us philistines!
I had a customer go off on an anti-holocaust diatribe once. Didn't really know what to do except sit there thinking "wow, people like this do exist."
I am fairly social unacceptable but some people make me look like Mr. Manners.
That word makes me think of Clerks II, and how Randal makes fun of Lord of the Rings so bad he makes some geek puke. :rofl:
I never understood the whole Jew hating thing. Is it strictly religion based? How do you even know what somebody's religion is?
I see this crap about ZOG and other anti-Jewish stuff and can't figure it out. Am I missing something?
It goes back as far as pre Christian times. The more European based anti semitism goes back to the time when Christians were forbbidden to charge each other interest and Jews naturally stepped into the vacum. Then of course there is the "otherness" of being a non Christian in a Christian society.
That and a lot of the fringe groups are just bat**** crazy or paranoid. They basically need to get out more. Find better hobbies. Take meds.
It goes back as far as pre Christian times. The more European based anti semitism goes back to the time when Christians were forbbidden to charge each other interest and Jews naturally stepped into the vacum. Then of course there is the "otherness" of being a non Christian in a Christian society.
That and a lot of the fringe groups are just bat**** crazy or paranoid. They basically need to get out more. Find better hobbies. Take meds.
One part of the history that seems to be lost is for the last 1000 or so years, Europeans have been very good at killing Europeans who were "not like them". By "Europeans" I mean people who live in Europe. War of the Roses. The 30 years war. Spanish Inquisitions. Napoleonic wars. French Revolution. The list is long.
It had been a very common occurrence that when a town was besieged by a foreign army, rape and pillage ensued. They often executed most of the town folk. This has been going on for Centuries. The problem is, the wars were so common, no-one really forgot nor forgave. As soon as the other group had the upper hand, they made sure and have "pay-back"
As far as the holocaust, I am not sure how people can deny it happened. The Germans were very good at keeping records. They kept fairly detailed records of what they did. That is why trying many of them was not hard. But, do not forget that many people (somewhere between 25-33%) of people in KZ's were not Jewish. They had a lot of hate to spread around.
Finally, after WW2, most of Europe was tired of getting so good at killing each other and has tried to refrain. There have been exceptions (Yugoslavia, etc) but for the most part, even though WW2 was painful and bloody, the generation that experienced it had to learn to forgive. I doubt they can forget, but they have forgiven and now for the most part there is not the hatred between the countries. They aren't building big armies to take over land from each other.
However, do not fail to see how radicalism took hold in Germany. Hyperinflation, poor economic conditions, and then have a "rich" class to blame all the countries woes on. Two of the three are present in the USA right now.
Then look at how radicalism takes hold in other parts of the world. It is normally desperate people.
Finally, to the OP. If you are dealing with people from Eastern Europe, they need two generations to sort it out. They were brutalized and oppressed by govts. They were taught daily about their enemies. The communist govts made enemies out of every religion. It takes time before all the teaching of the communist govts is undone.
As to the soldier in the IDF, what would you say to someone if you were talking to him and he told you that he was a member of the Wehrmacht? Would you tell me that was a noble thing that he did serving his country or would you be upset to learn that? Would some of the GT members here shake hands and be OK with everything if they met someone and that person told them they were part of the Vietcong army?
It goes back as far as pre Christian times. The more European based anti semitism goes back to the time when Christians were forbbidden to charge each other interest and Jews naturally stepped into the vacum. Then of course there is the "otherness" of being a non Christian in a Christian society.
That and a lot of the fringe groups are just bat**** crazy or paranoid. They basically need to get out more. Find better hobbies. Take meds.
That is really not the issue at all. That is one of many talking points.
There is much simpler reason.
Throughout most of human history, societies were homogeneous. Even when one group was invaded or conquered another group of people, assimilation happened (or more and more war)
That is the history of man...with one exception. In many places around the world, you have Jews. An alien population living in homogeneous cultures and the Jews tended not to assimilate.
People attack and blame different.
That is really not the issue at all. That is one of many talking points.
There is much simpler reason.
Throughout most of human history, societies were homogeneous. Even when one group was invaded or conquered another group of people, assimilation happened (or more and more war)
That is the history of man...with one exception. In many places around the world, you have Jews. An alien population living in homogeneous cultures and the Jews tended not to assimilate.
People attack and blame different.
And the USA is no different. How many GTers think that our Mexican "guest workers" should assimilate and "learn english".
This is not the first wave of immigration that the immigrants have been singled out.
That is really not the issue at all. That is one of many talking points.
There is much simpler reason.
Throughout most of human history, societies were homogeneous. Even when one group was invaded or conquered another group of people, assimilation happened (or more and more war)
That is the history of man...with one exception. In many places around the world, you have Jews. An alien population living in homogeneous cultures and the Jews tended not to assimilate.
People attack and blame different.
That was the "otherness" I wrote about. In the sentence it was mostly about the last 500-700 years. It does also apply to the pre Christian era too.
The "otherness" can also apply to muslims. How many times have I read on this site that all muslims should be killed? Essentially the only good muslim is a dead muslim. That singling out for otherness has been going on for a thousand years.
This talk of killing and hate has reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa-oUPTr9LI
I remember my college English professor lecturing about that clip. I thought it was silly a bunch of white, middle to upper class kids writing about race in America. I did like the story of love and hate though.
That is the history of man...with one exception. In many places around the world, you have Jews. An alien population living in homogeneous cultures and the Jews tended not to assimilate.
People attack and blame different.
Rabbi, I suspect you know Jewish history in Europe since you posted this. As you likely know many Jewish communities were often allowed to essentially self govern per Jewish law (assuming the taxes were paid, the king/ruling merchants weren't pissed off, etc)
How would you compare contrast this with what many Muslims want? They want contracts enforced in USA under Muslim law. Have you seen the uproar this causes on gt?
Also, it may be simplistic, but I remember when I was growing up my father said, my house my rules. On GT it is easy to find threads with GTer telling people if they don't like something about USA to get the he'll out. How do you compare / contrast this with the non-assimilation? Spanish speaking parts of the country with signs in spanish?
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Rabbi, I suspect you know Jewish history in Europe since you posted this. As you likely know many Jewish communities were often allowed to essentially self govern per Jewish law (assuming the taxes were paid, the king/ruling merchants weren't pissed off, etc)
How would you compare contrast this with what many Muslims want? They want contracts enforced in USA under Muslim law. Have you seen the uproar this causes on gt?
Also, it may be simplistic, but I remember when I was growing up my father said, my house my rules. On GT it is easy to find threads with GTer telling people if they don't like something about USA to get the he'll out. How do you compare / contrast this with the non-assimilation? Spanish speaking parts of the country with signs in spanish?
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
The idea of "self governing Jewish areas" are a theory that in practice meant "seperate and robbed and beaten when the need arises"
Islam isnt the same, not even close. Jews dont want to convert people, it is actually forbiden to seek converts. Islam has a mandate to convert you to their way.
As for "my way or the highway" yeah, a lot of people think freedom is "the way *I* like it".
As for the Hispanic thing, I am probably the wrong guy to ask. I live in San Antonio, where Hispanics are the majority. They are our doctors, teachers, politicians, plumbers, whatever. I have a middle aged white woman who mows my lawn for a funny point.
Our art is Hispanic. Our architecture is Hispanic. Our food, our women,....everything. It works fairly well. life goes on. You learn Spanish. I am so used to being a *minority* that I never even think about it until someone who isnt used to this starts talking about it. Then I think to myself "what do these people have against Mexicans???" (and it goes back to my, who is really the party of freedom?)
Jews, christians, muslems, democrats, repubs, whatever.
Anyone witnessing what one country ( in this case Germany) did to another "group" in this case the jews should be horrified by it. Its nothing to do with ethnicitity nor culture, its a life choice.
I lived and worked in Israel and worked internationally for the Israelis for most of my life and Im not jewish, Im not anything, never been to church, never baptised, Im basically a heathen.
Yet I choke up everytime I see anything about the holocast as Ive seen the evidence first hand and in my face. I was raised in the camps of post ww2 Europe and the ME in the devastation of the bombing and the ongoing fighting.
Its easy to sit here in the USA and pick fights about what happened and what didnt but go there, even go to France and see the Paris museum of german horror....the efficient germans photographed everything and there those photos are....germans catching thrown babies on their bayonets. Piles of millions of teeth pulled. In Israel they really dont talk much about the holocast now as those survivors die off of old age and memories are lost forever...theres a memorial for that but its a memorial. The Israelis
recognise the common enemy is no longer in uniform nor has insignia showing his " side" against them.
Its a life choice.
magnum62
11-29-2012, 07:46
unfortunately, denial of the holocaust and prejudice is becoming more prevalent (or should I say evident)
OlliesRevenge
11-29-2012, 09:00
Several years ago, my city built us a new fire station, and once it was finished we put on a "grand opening" community event in which the public was invited for food and to hear the Mayor and Fire Chief speak.
I was on duty that day, and I noticed an older man dressed in a light blue sports coat with numerous pins and badges pinned to the lapels. I immediately recognized him as a WW2 veteran and struck up a conversation. It turns out he was Polish (still had a thick accent), was a prisoner at Buchenwald when it was liberated, and later became a trooper for the US Constabulary forces.
George liked to talk, and I enjoy listening to the stories men like him have to tell; so for the next two hours he regaled me with some impressive tales of how he assisted in capturing Nazi criminals who were trying to escape Germany. It turned out some guys on another shift had met George previously, and that he had been featured in a video documentary of the liberation of Buchenwald.
I asked if he lived in my district, he said he did and I recognized his address as being very close to one of our local synagogues. When I asked him if he was a member of that synagogue it started an interesting tangent to our overall conversation. He wasn't hateful or even upset about it (he was quite amicable actually), but he did tell me that he was not Jewish, and that he resented the somewhat common misconception that the Holocaust was solely about the extermination of Jews. He went on about the many different categories of victims; political dissidents, immigrants, alcoholics, criminals, gays, etc.
To hear him tell it, there was a low percentage of Jewish prisoners at Buchenwald -- and that because of his views and experience with this he had previously been accused (in conversations years past) of being a "holocaust denier" -- until, of course, he informed his accuser that he had actually been a victim of the holocaust. In his words to me, "The ADL did their job well".
FWIW
.264 magnum
11-29-2012, 09:13
Several years ago, my city built us a new fire station, and once it was finished we put on a "grand opening" community event in which the public was invited for food and to hear the Mayor and Fire Chief speak.
I was on duty that day, and I noticed an older man dressed in a light blue sports coat with numerous pins and badges pinned to the lapels. I immediately recognized him as a WW2 veteran and struck up a conversation. It turns out he was Polish (still had a thick accent), was a prisoner at Buchenwald when it was liberated, and later became a trooper for the US Constabulary forces.
George liked to talk, and I enjoy listening to the stories men like him have to tell; so for the next two hours he regaled me with some impressive tales of how he assisted in capturing Nazi criminals who were trying to escape Germany. It turned out some guys on another shift had met George previously, and that he had been featured in a video documentary of the liberation of Buchenwald.
I asked if he lived in my district, he said he did and I recognized his address as being very close to one of our local synagogues. When I asked him if he was a member of that synagogue it started an interesting tangent to our overall conversation. He wasn't hateful or even upset about it (he was quite amicable actually), but he did tell me that he was not Jewish, and that he resented the somewhat common misconception that the Holocaust was solely about the extermination of Jews. He went on about the many different categories of victims; political dissidents, immigrants, alcoholics, criminals, gays, etc.
To hear him tell it, there was a low percentage of Jewish prisoners at Buchenwald -- and that because of his views and experience with this he had previously been accused (in conversations years past) of being a "holocaust denier" -- until, of course, he informed his accuser that he had actually been a victim of the holocaust. In his words to me, "The ADL did their job well".
FWIW
I think the flavor of that man's story is correct.
IIRC Buchenwald was not a death camp per se as it contained no gas chambers. Buchenwald was one of the first concentration camps, over time it became a slave labor camp for munitions making and related. Also I'm fairly sure Buchenwald was the site of disgusting experiments/tortures on gays and others.
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 09:32
Rabbi, if a group will not take up arms in defense of their motherland what can be expected of them if things got bad here? yes, it is a broad brush.
regarding politics, id like to see a jewish "holiday" scene set up somewhere just so i could see liberals explode because they wouldnt dare complain about it like they do with christians versions.....LOL the democrats dont love jews, they love anybody who votes for them, not really giving a damn about their situation.
Rabbi, if a group will not take up arms in defense of their motherland what can be expected of them if things got bad here? yes, it is a broad brush.
regarding politics, id like to see a jewish "holiday" scene set up somewhere just so i could see liberals explode because they wouldnt dare complain about it like they do with christians versions.....LOL the democrats dont love jews, they love anybody who votes for them, not really giving a damn about their situation.
Who says Israel is the "motherland" of AMERICAN Jews?
Again, I think your expectations are unreasonable. For some reason you are conviced that people should do this your way.
sounds more like rid of a friend than lost a friend.
I have tried to explain this many times. For some reason people just dont get it (I am not saying that is you)
Besides the fact that many people (educated in particular, as the Jews tend to be) are NOT single issue voters.
The other big one is, Who is the proponent of freedom? The Democrats or the Republicans? Republican types have a real hard time understanding that a LOT of people (obviously) think the Republicans are the party of oppression.
On one side you have a group of people (Republicans) who are against things. They are against Gays, Monorities, anything that isnt Christian....They are the party of "speak English or get out" They are the party of "We are going to figure out how to get rid of 20 million(illegals) people living here..." They are the party that wants to tell woman what to do with their bodies, often based on a fath tht 80% of the people in the world dont believel.... Oh, and the Republicans suck with the money as well. They have their own sacred cows and seem to want to go to war with everyone. At best they can manage the decay better than the Dems. (it doesnt matter how much of it is true, plenty of people feel that way and most people know that)...
Now, on the other side you have the Democrats. They want to bring everyone along for the ride. In particular, everyone who is NOT a white Christian male. They advocate for the little guy and the oppressed. The are the party of yes. They suck with the money as well. But in spite of all the harsh words about them, They actually have a better record than the Republicans when it comes to winning wars and the economy (that is true)
So, you are a Jew. You have an inate fear about oppression and the like. You probably like the Republicans financial ideas better but you like your freedom more.
Is it any surprise why many Jews (or anyone who is not a white Christian male) votes Democratic?
As I have said before, the issue is many conservatives have blinders on. They spend so much time placing anyone who does not agree with them into little groups they can hate. If you are not on their side you must be a ghetto leech, a gun grabber, an enviroweenie, a homosexual, ect. They flat ignore that many of those 65 million who voted Democrat are successful, educated, hardworking people who are simply your average American.
The problem is the majority in this nation are stuck in the middle of the political spectrum. They value the conservative financial policies but hold a strong belief there should be freedom for all. Both sides have their pet issues that turn people off, the conservatives want to control this and that in the name of religion while the liberals want to prop up the lower class at the expense of everyone else. In the end people must choose the lesser of two evils. In the end you get results just like you detailed above.
As I have said before, the issue is many conservatives have blinders on. They spend so much time placing anyone who does not agree with them into little groups they can hate. If you are not on their side you must be a ghetto leech, a gun grabber, an enviroweenie, a homosexual, ect. They flat ignore that many of those 65 million who voted Democrat are successful, educated, hardworking people who are simply your average American.
The problem is the majority in this nation are stuck in the middle of the political spectrum. They value the conservative financial policies but hold a strong belief there should be freedom for all. Both sides have their pet issues that turn people off, the conservatives want to control this and that in the name of religion while the liberals want to prop up the lower class at the expense of everyone else. In the end people must choose the lesser of two evils. In the end you get results just like you detailed above.
I live in south central Texas. Hispanics are the majority here.
There is an anecdote going around right now that goes something like this.
...So the conservatives cant understand why so many Hispanics vote Democrat. Mr. conservative is asking Mr. Hispanic why that is...
Mr Right to Mr Garcia: "Arent you religious?"
Mr Garcia: "Yes, we have conservative religious values?"
Mr Right "Arent you pro life?"
Mr Garcia "Yes, we have conservative pro life values"
Mr Right "arent you a hard working person?"
Mr Garcia "Yes, we have conservative business values"
Mr Right "arent you for the traditional family?"
Mr Garcia "Yes, we have conservative family values"
Mr Right "Then why dont you vote conservative???!!!???"
Mr. Garcia "because they dont want us."
______
In general, that is true. Many Hispanics are all of those things...and yet feel that way. That is the Republicans fault. They had better fix it. BTW, you could change out *Mr Garcia* with "Woman" or "Mr Gay guy" or a number of other things....and certainly plenty enough to make the Republicans win in a landslide for a fair time to come.
In general, that is true. Many Hispanics are all of those things...and yet feel that way. That is the Republicans fault.
The Republicans fault?
You've missed the decades-long propaganda campaign by democrats and farther left to convince all hispanics to vote D by convincing them that being against illegal aliens means being against all hispanic people?
I'd say the Republicans are the least responsible and it's a long way from an accident or oversight.
The Republicans fault?
You've missed the decades-long propaganda campaign by democrats and farther left to convince all hispanics to vote D by convincing them that being against illegal aliens means being against all hispanic people?
I'd say the Republicans are the least responsible and it's a long way from an accident or oversight.
I dont see it that way at all. You are advocating it is not the fault of the loser of this battle...and I dont play that game.
You have a group of people, Hispanics, who are generally conservative...and yet the conservative party cant get them?
And agian, your post actually proves the point that Republicans have to put everyone in a box and then hate them. In this case, the Hispanics obviously are not smart enough to think for themselves and realize how wrong they are about an issue that is important to them.
So who is at fault again?
JimIsland
11-29-2012, 11:53
Everyone is different but I have a simple rule: If you ain't one of my "buds" you don't come to my house and no....I will never invite you. If you are an aquintance friend, I will meet you at the Sports Bar down the road. After a few liquoir drinks,I can tell if my "friend" has snakes in his head or not. I would rather call him a D-Bag out in public than at my "Castle".
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 12:09
I dont see it that way at all. You are advocating it is not the fault of the loser of this battle...and I dont play that game.
You have a group of people, Hispanics, who are generally conservative...and yet the conservative party cant get them?
And agian, your post actually proves the point that Republicans have to put everyone in a box and then hate them. In this case, the Hispanics obviously are not smart enough to think for themselves and realize how wrong they are about an issue that is important to them.
So who is at fault again?
saying youre conservative and then voting in a majority for a liberal shows what you say is not what you mean.
saying youre conservative and then voting in a majority for a liberal shows what you say is not what you mean.
...and again, another perfect example of the problem. You have to put them in a box and in that box they cant possibly actually be anything other than what YOU think they are.
Read this again.
I live in south central Texas. Hispanics are the majority here.
There is an anecdote going around right now that goes something like this.
...So the conservatives cant understand why so many Hispanics vote Democrat. Mr. conservative is asking Mr. Hispanic why that is...
Mr Right to Mr Garcia: "Arent you religious?"
Mr Garcia: "Yes, we have conservative religious values?"
Mr Right "Arent you pro life?"
Mr Garcia "Yes, we have conservative pro life values"
Mr Right "arent you a hard working person?"
Mr Garcia "Yes, we have conservative business values"
Mr Right "arent you for the traditional family?"
Mr Garcia "Yes, we have conservative family values"
Mr Right "Then why dont you vote conservative???!!!???"
Mr. Garcia "because they dont want us."
To be blunt, many of these people are not liberal at all....they JUST DONT LIKE YOU!...because you are sure they are idiots and different.
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 12:19
...and again, another perfect example of the problem. You have to put them in a box and in that box they cant possibly actually be anything other than what YOU think they are.
Read this again.
To be blunt, many of these people are not liberal at all....they JUST DONT LIKE YOU!...because you are sure they are idiots and different.
this shows them to be idiots and indifferent. not wanting another cuban boat lift fiasco where unchecked immigrants come here with problems to put it mildly.....
why do latinos think the republicans dont want them? id like to know why they actually think this. do "we" want illegals? no. does it matter where they are from if they are illegal? no.
its got nothing to do with them being from a hispanic country.
this shows them to be idiots and indifferent. not wanting another cuban boat lift fiasco where unchecked immigrants come here with problems to put it mildly.....
why do latinos think the republicans dont want them? id like to know why they actually think this. do "we" want illegals? no. does it matter where they are from if they are illegal? no.
its got nothing to do with them being from a hispanic country.
Because of the things you say.
It should be obvious but you dont seem to get it. You cant attack people and then expect them to want to be one of you, even if you believe similar things.
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 12:33
Because of the things you say.
It should be obvious but you dont seem to get it. You cant attack people and then expect them to want to be one of you, even if you believe similar things.
i see where the mishap occured.....i misunderstood your first idiot remark....
i dont think i made my point clear....i did not say or mean that they are idiots simply because they mistakingly think republicans dont want them...... thats what i thought you meant, but i guess i was wrong in what you meant.
are they different? of course, all new comers to America are different until they assimilate to American ways. are they idiots? no.
is that a little more clear on what i meant?
i dont think i made my point clear....i did not say or mean that they are idiots simply because they mistakingly think republicans dont want them...... thats what i thought you meant, but i guess i was wrong in what you meant.
are they different? of course, all new comers to America are different until they assimilate to American ways. are they idiots? no.
is that a little more clear on what i meant?
It doesnt matter what the details are, you cant attack people and expect them to "like you."
BTW, many Hispanics in this country have been here many generations. Plenty enough to have made the outcome of this election different.
listen, many of these people honestly have conservative values....but Republicans insist on labeling them and attacking them. STOP!
Even in this post, you insist they are outsiders who are new to this country. STOP!
And agian, your post actually proves the point that Republicans have to put everyone in a box and then hate them. In this case, the Hispanics obviously are not smart enough to think for themselves and realize how wrong they are about an issue that is important to them.
So who is at fault again?
The democrats, again. And you are also wrong once again about which party treats hispanics and other minorities like they are not smart enough to think for themselves. The Democrats have based their entire social policy on that approach. That they are successful with it is probably another issue.
It doesnt matter what the details are, you cant attack people and expect them to "like you."
Maybe I'm missing what you mean - do you actually consider opposing illegal immigration to be "attacking hispanics," or are you talking about something different?
The democrats, again. And you are also wrong once again about which party treats hispanics and other minorities like they are not smart enough to think for themselves. The Democrats have based their entire social policy on that approach. That they are successful with it is probably another issue.
the mistake you make is you think your logic trumps how people feel. People dont have to justify why they vote the way they do. This is not a math problem. Republicans better start understanding that.
You cant win that war. Here you are now saying that Hispanics are so stupid they have been duped by the Democrats.
You have to stop that stuff. It doesnt matter if you are some level of right.
Maybe I'm missing what you mean - do you actually consider opposing illegal immigration to be "attacking hispanics," or are you talking about something different?
I am talking about all the issues but in general, the fact (and this thread shows it over and over again) that acording to the Republican way of thinking, people who dont vote Republican are stupid or being fooled, because it cant possibly be problems with Republicans.
People keep placing others in boxing and then hating/ridiculing the people in those boxes.
I dont see it that way at all. You are advocating it is not the fault of the loser of this battle...and I dont play that game.
You have a group of people, Hispanics, who are generally conservative...and yet the conservative party cant get them?
And agian, your post actually proves the point that Republicans have to put everyone in a box and then hate them. In this case, the Hispanics obviously are not smart enough to think for themselves and realize how wrong they are about an issue that is important to them.
So who is at fault again?
Come on Rabbi. You know the answer. Hispanics as a group think they are going to "get more" from the Democrats then from Republicans. Its about the free stuff. I know you can't generalize about groups, but a majority want what other people have and if the democrats are going to give it to them that's who they will vote for. I am a republican. I don't hate anybody. But I hate the idea that groups of people are now going to be able to vote-read take- themselves the $ others have earned. National elections are always about money. Side issues distract a minority of voters.
We somehow have raised and imported a large voting group of people who think the American dream is achieved by suing someone for a car accident, or medical mal practice, or hitting the power ball in the lottery.
ithaca_deerslayer
11-29-2012, 15:01
People keep placing others in boxing and then hating/ridiculing the people in those boxes.
Isn't that called scapegoating?
Project all the qualities you hate about yourself onto the "other", and then persecute that other.
Come on Rabbi. You know the answer. Hispanics as a group think they are going to "get more" from the Democrats then from Republicans. Its about the free stuff. I know you can't generalize about groups, but a majority want what other people have and if the democrats are going to give it to them that's who they will vote for. I am a republican. I don't hate anybody. But I hate the idea that groups of people are now going to be able to vote-read take- themselves the $ others have earned. National elections are always about money. Side issues distract a minority of voters.
We somehow have raised and imported a large voting group of people who think the American dream is achieved by suing someone for a car accident, or medical mal practice, or hitting the power ball in the lottery.
There you go...you did it. You just put an entire group of people in a box and decided to hate them.
Seriously, I live in a majority Hispanic area....and it just so happens to be the 7th largest city in the country. These people work hard and almost all of them are family oriented. They are religious and no matter what you think, they are fairly conservative on many issues.
....but people who are (white Christian males) Republicans cant stop saying things that pretty much get out the message that "you are stupid, you just want handouts...."
You cant attack a group of people and expect them to go along with you. I make the mistake because I think that such a thing should get a lot of "AH....yes, good points..." nope, over and over again, (look at this thread) people want to tell me "no, you dont know what you are talking about, we dont attack anyone, it is because they are stupid...."
*sigh*
mr00jimbo
11-29-2012, 15:07
I have people in my life who are Jewish and people who are Muslim, and they both have been so generous, caring and compassionate. I cannot have an opinion on this matter, but I really wish the middle east can eventually live in some kind of tolerance
Isn't that called scapegoating?
Project all the qualities you hate about yourself onto the "other", and then persecute that other.
No, I dont buy that crap either. The "if you hate them/something it is because you somehow secretly fear it or are it..." That is crap in many cases. A person can hate homosexuals or cherry ice cream because he honestly doesnt like them. It doesnt have to be any scapegoating or projecting.
People who fear change are not projecting. They simply dont want change. That is understandable.
My point is, if you want to get more of your way, you need to include more people who will vote your way. Seperating people into categories and then attacking them insures you will get less of what you want.
The Democrats seperate people into categories as well, then they tend to open their arms and say, you are one of us!...and people believe them. Why wouldnt they, the other side is attacking them.
Of course their are exceptions. Of course the dems attack groups of people, they just dont do it as much but this is a game of numbers(of people) and how those people feel...and what do Republicans do when women,minorities and gays express how they feel? Attack them.
devildog2067
11-29-2012, 15:12
why do latinos think the republicans dont want them? id like to know why they actually think this.
If your name is Garcia, and you're a 7th generation Texan, and you drive to Arizona... the cops in Arizona may ask you to prove your citizenship.
They won't ask me.
It's pretty damn simple if you stop and think about it for a minute.
devildog2067
11-29-2012, 15:15
National elections are always about money. Side issues distract a minority of voters.
Right--side issues like abortion, and stem cell research, and "intelligent design" and school prayer.
If your name is Garcia, and you're a 7th generation Texan, and you drive to Arizona... the cops in Arizona may ask you to prove your citizenship.
They won't ask me.
It's pretty damn simple if you stop and think about it for a minute.
...and every *gringo* they know who is conservative is very supportive of such laws.
That is what people who ask the question often dont get. Mr. Garcia is not (often) afraid of getting stopped and questioned. He just doenst want anything to do with the people who yell "heeeellll yeaaaaah!" about such laws.
Guess what that means. Mr. Garcia, the conservative, family values, hard working person who believes in many of the same things you do decides that the government cant take away his feelings on those things....but they can take away his freedoms. He votes Democrat.
devildog2067
11-29-2012, 15:26
The democrats, again. And you are also wrong once again about which party treats hispanics and other minorities like they are not smart enough to think for themselves.
You know, it's funny that I never put this together until just now, but there's an irony here.
Rabbi and I both (him more than me) have a history of saying things like "the math doesn't lie" and "the facts don't care how you feel." Emotions don't change the objective reality.
But in this particular issue, politics, emotions ARE the objective reality. For most people, the way that you make them feel determines how they are going to vote. Few people (on either side) have either the time or the ability to really grasp the full complexity of any single issue, let alone all of them. People tend to vote what they feel.
You know, it's funny that I never put this together until just now, but there's an irony here.
Rabbi and I both (him more than me) have a history of saying things like "the math doesn't lie" and "the facts don't care how you feel." Emotions don't change the objective reality.
But in this particular issue, politics, emotions ARE the objective reality. For most people, the way that you make them feel determines how they are going to vote. Few people (on either side) have either the time or the ability to really grasp the full complexity of any single issue, let alone all of them. People tend to vote what they feel.
As the old saying goes, "People wont remember what you said but they will remember how you made them feel"
There you go...you did it. You just put an entire group of people in a box and decided to hate them.
Seriously, I live in a majority Hispanic area....and it just so happens to be the 7th largest city in the country. These people work hard and almost all of them are family oriented. They are religious and no matter what you think, they are fairly conservative on many issues.
....but people who are (white Christian males) Republicans cant stop saying things that pretty much get out the message that "you are stupid, you just want handouts...."
You cant attack a group of people and expect them to go along with you. I make the mistake because I think that such a thing should get a lot of "AH....yes, good points..." nope, over and over again, (look at this thread) people want to tell me "no, you dont know what you are talking about, we dont attack anyone, it is because they are stupid...."
*sigh*
First of all, how do you know I am a White Christian male?
I didn't say hispanics were lazy. I said people want what other people have. The problem is we allow access to the safety net once they get here. Heck, I dont' blame them. Where they came from is a sewer. You have a country next door dumb enough not only to let you in the door and stay here, but to make sure you have food, shelter and medical care. Oh and free education for your children.
We have also raised a generation of native born U.S. citizens to believe its their God given right to prosper. Not by working hard or being frugal-which used to be the American Way-but to buy lottery tickets, hope you get in a car accident so a lawyer can get you $, or maybe if you are real lucky you can go on unemployement and after that disability.
Too many people-from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all ethnic groups-who want to ride in the wagon.
They aren't stupid. Far from it. The stupid reside in this country who allowed this situation to grow and flourish.
First of all, how do you know I am a White Christian male?
I didn't say hispanics were lazy. I said people want what other people have. The problem is we allow access to the safety net once they get here. Heck, I dont' blame them. Where they came from is a sewer. You have a country next door dumb enough not only to let you in the door and stay here, but to make sure you have food, shelter and medical care. Oh and free education for your children.
We have also raised a generation of native born U.S. citizens to believe its their God given right to prosper. Not by working hard or being frugal-which used to be the American Way-but to buy lottery tickets, hope you get in a car accident so a lawyer can get you $, or maybe if you are real lucky you can go on unemployement and after that disability.
Too many people-from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all ethnic groups-who want to ride in the wagon.
They aren't stupid. Far from it. The stupid reside in this country who allowed this situation to grow and flourish.
Here you are, going double down on "I know why they vote the way they do...it is because they are on the take..."(you put them in a box and then attacked it)
I am telling you, no matter what level of truth there is to your statement, (and there is plenty of truth in it),...it is STILL an attack and DOESNT APPLY to enough of them that it could easily effect the outcome of national elections in our favor....but it DOES make enough of them recoil away from Republicans that it effects national elections AGAINST us.
Here you are, going double down on "I know why they vote the way they do...it is because they are on the take..."(you put them in a box and then attacked it)
I am telling you, no matter what level of truth there is to your statement, (and there is plenty of truth in it),...it is STILL an attack and DOESNT APPLY to enough of them that it could easily effect the outcome of national elections in our favor....but it DOES make enough of them recoil away from Republicans that it effects national elections AGAINST us.
But Rabbi, the unions that exist here in the U.S. dont' want illegals competing with their members for jobs. And you know who the Unions support. Not only with their votes, but with their money.
Point is, there are plenty of Democrats who put people in boxes and attack them-Christians come to mind-gunowners-the self made-But they get away with it.
But Rabbi, the unions that exist here in the U.S. dont' want illegals competing with their members for jobs. And you know who the Unions support. Not only with their votes, but with their money.
Point is, there are plenty of Democrats who put people in boxes and attack them-Christians come to mind-gunowners-the self made-But they get away with it.
I dont think there is anything I can say at this point that I have not already said. You insist on defending your position...as if that is going to help it. It wont. (and it didnt) This is about how they feel. Your facts dont mean anything to them and in all honesty, the way they feel is pretty justified, in spite of the fact that your facts are also pretty justified.
Right--side issues like abortion, and stem cell research, and "intelligent design" and school prayer.
yep, side issues. Money is the name of the game.
devildog2067
11-29-2012, 16:09
yep, side issues. Money is the name of the game.
You miss the point.
If they're really side issues, why won't the Republican party shut the hell up about them?
Talking about school prayer costs the Republicans votes.
yep, side issues. Money is the name of the game.
Who the hell is a large enough voting block the is profiting from abortion or school prayer?
There isnt. That is not a side issue fueled by money...not at all. Those are powerful personal issues fueled by feelings.
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 16:40
It doesnt matter what the details are, you cant attack people and expect them to "like you."
BTW, many Hispanics in this country have been here many generations. Plenty enough to have made the outcome of this election different.
listen, many of these people honestly have conservative values....but Republicans insist on labeling them and attacking them. STOP!
Even in this post, you insist they are outsiders who are new to this country. STOP!
i was refering to new American citizens, not the old schoolers who've been here for a generation or three.
i was refering to new American citizens, not the old schoolers who've been here for a generation or three.
I am refering to everyone.
Stop categorizing people "unlike" you and then assuming what is wrong with them because they are unlike you.
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 16:56
I am refering to everyone.
Stop categorizing people "unlike" you and then assuming what is wrong with them because they are unlike you.
"they" are unlike me because of how they vote, not because of how they say they feel.
i am generally a moderate, right leaning but more to the center, i vote as such, if i said i was conservative but voted for liberals would i be a hypocrate or one of "them"?
people like me are not bound by skin color or where their parents came from, they are bound by where their allegence lays....the U.S. constitution, one main language, one flag, one country.
if secure borders seperates me from them so be it.
if freedom for high school kids to say a prayer before a game which could paralyze them spereates me from them so be it.
if wanting the federal government to spend my tax money wisely on national security, ifrastructure and deal with foriegn trade is not like them then so be it.
if giving rights to one group which do not extend to other groups seems right to them then we are different.
if one feels o.k. with the federal government subsidizing people to stay home for over a year then we are different.
if expecting responsibilty for one's actions instead of excuses and blaming the system is not their belief then we are different.
if believing the states should govern themselves (following the US Constitution) is not their belief then we are different.
where have i mentioned skin color, heritage, or national origin?
If your name is Garcia, and you're a 7th generation Texan, and you drive to Arizona... the cops in Arizona may ask you to prove your citizenship.
They won't ask me.
It's pretty damn simple if you stop and think about it for a minute.
The funny thing with that is for a board full of chest thumpers who hold "freedom so dear to their heart" they are the first to support using the power of government to profile those who they don't like. They forget the fact that a huge number of Hispanics, including all these we are talking about in reference to voting, are just as much an American as anyone else. The Hispanic see a group which is historically white waging a war not against illegal immigration but against anyone of their origin. How many times have we heard the "papers please" argument when some white guy gets stopped at an immigration check point? Yet they support the same for another group.
cowboywannabe
11-29-2012, 17:32
ray9898, i think if the illegal immigration problem were from white canadians it would be different. lets not be afraid to state what a problem is.
there are more "arab" looking people wanting to do harm to America then there are Irish looking or Mexican looking, so it is just to pay extra attention to the "arab" looking folks....which does not mean ignore the others, just focus more on what is presenting itslef as the obvious.
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