Should Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and McGuire make baseball HOF? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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czsmithGT
11-28-2012, 13:57
I would say no. However, I could be dissuaded from that opinion by a good argument.

Without using steroids Sosa and McGuire wouldn't even be under consideration. But Bonds and Clemens would have been shoe-ins if they hadn't used them although their stats would not have been so gaudy.

I bet many, many HOF players used some kind of performance enhancing drug during their career- cortisone shots to let them play with injury, amphetamines to keep them going through a grueling season.

tous
11-28-2012, 14:02
No...

Walt_NC
11-28-2012, 14:12
No. But Pete Rose should.

All Pro Sports Hero
11-28-2012, 14:17
Clemens should.

ray9898
11-28-2012, 14:19
No......

22rtf2
11-28-2012, 14:22
All of them. Capitalism made em do what they did, bigger paychecks.

Do you hate capitalism? :p

Sent from the Daedalus in the Pegasus Galaxy

IndyGunFreak
11-28-2012, 14:29
Clemens should.

I agree. A jury said Clemens did not lie when he said he did not use PED's. A jury said Bonds did.

That says a lot to me.

9jeeps
11-28-2012, 14:37
Nope! But they sure could use a Hall for Infamous Sports Jocks these days.

czsmithGT
11-28-2012, 14:47
I agree. A jury said Clemens did not lie when he said he did not use PED's. A jury said Bonds did.

That says a lot to me.

Maybe he just had better lawyers than the government?

"Prosecutors were forbidden to inform the jury that McNamee assisted other players, including Yankee pitcher Andy Pettitte and former Yankee second baseman Chuck Knoblauch, with doping and that the other players had corroborated his testimony. Lawyers for Clemens convinced U.S. District Court Judge Reggie Walton that such information would be prejudicial to Clemens potentially leading to guilt by association."

Henry's Dad
11-28-2012, 15:47
My argument has always been that if the testing regeime that is in place doesn't catch what you are doing while you are doing it, then the athlete should not be penalized.

Sorry MLB, get better screening programs in place if you're so worried about it. I didn't hear any complaints in the summer of 1998 when you were counting all the cash generated by Sosa and McGuire.

It was only after the golden geese stopped laying eggs that you "did the right thing." Ditto for Lance Armstrong and the Tour.

TK-421
11-28-2012, 15:54
If Lance got his Tour wins revoked due to allegations of using performance enhancers, why should guys be let into the baseball hall of fame if it's been actually proven they've used performance enhancers?

If they've done really well and haven't used performance enhancers, and have earned a spot in the hall of fame, let them in. If they've used performance enhancers, don't let them in.

If using performance enhancing drugs is against the rules, don't reward the people who use them, it makes people think you don't care about your own rules. And if you don't care about them, why should anybody else follow them?

norton
11-28-2012, 15:56
Clemens should.

None of them. Least of all this cheating s.o.b.

PAGunner
11-28-2012, 16:58
All should be in the hall, the fact they aren't is why I don't watch baseball anymore. We've come to a point in society where male hormones are so taboo you here "low T" commercials because TESTOSTERONE (I say it proudly with my prostate cancer awareness month mustache) has successfully been demonized in our nanny state culture... The same culture that will likely make Sandra Fluke Time magazine person of the year for pushing for FREE female hormones!

Male hormones= Evil & Verbotten
Female hormones=virtuous & given for free

And for those of you who say it's "cheating", that's a joke. These men didn't magically grow muscles and athletic ability, they worked their arses off, the roids just helped them. Fact is we're not all born equal, some of us have 3-4x the testosterone of others, is that a "fair" advantage? Were Danny Devito & Shaq born equal? Same chance of being a pro athlete? As far as I'm concerned the roids jus help level the playing field.


So as far as I'm concerned, PEDs should be fair game in professional athletics, amateur sports I believe it's fair to ban PEDs. Even if you disagree with all that, these guys (Clemens, Bonds, Sosa and McGuire) took the stuff BEFORE it was against the rules, just saying. They're the ones who got singled out, a great MANY (probably a majority) of players were also taking it but didn't get caught or have a light shined on them because they weren't as good, so IMO it's very unfair.

Athletes are still using and always will use, only now it will be a select few who are willing to "cheat" who will get the advantage, instead of everyone.

aplcr0331
11-28-2012, 17:07
You baseball guys should make your HOF like us basketball guys did. Lots of fun, anyone can get in, and everyone *wink* *wink* get's it.

You old timer's take this baseball stuff too serious. Yes, let 'em in. Pete Rose too.

Lighten up.

czsmithGT
11-28-2012, 17:21
You baseball guys should make your HOF like us basketball guys did. Lots of fun, anyone can get in, and everyone *wink* *wink* get's it.

You old timer's take this baseball stuff too serious. Yes, let 'em in. Pete Rose too.

Lighten up.

Pete Rose? What's next, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Chick Gandil, Eddie Cicotte, "Lefty" Williams, "Happy" Felsch, "Swede" Risberg and Arnold Rothstein?

:supergrin:

inthefrey
11-28-2012, 17:21
Nope! I was there when McGwire hit his BIG ONE, running the truck for CNN.
I burned a souvenir copy I got of him on the cover of the local St. Louis paper a few years back - thew it in the burn can.

Detectorist
11-28-2012, 17:24
Nope! I was there when McGwire hit his BIG ONE, running the truck for CNN.
I burned a souvenir copy I got of him on the cover of the local St. Louis paper a few years back - thew it in the burn can.

The sad thing is, McGwire had the natural athleticism to beat most baseball players in home runs.

Glocksanity
11-28-2012, 17:26
Yes. But they should be put in the PED wing. The Hall of Fame needs a whole wing for the steroid era. It was part of the game and to pretend it did not happen is a disservice to fans and reality.

aplcr0331
11-28-2012, 17:27
Pete Rose? What's next, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Chick Gandil, Eddie Cicotte, "Lefty" Williams, "Happy" Felsch, "Swede" Risberg and Arnold Rothstein?

:supergrin:


Well the only name I recognize on that list is Shoeless Joe Jackson and that is only because he brought back Ray's Dad so he could have a game of catch. That alone warrants the Hall, IMHO.

Glocksanity
11-28-2012, 17:28
I agree. A jury said Clemens did not lie when he said he did not use PED's. A jury said Bonds did.

That says a lot to me.

I guess you would let your daughter date OJ then? I mean, the jury did acquit.

Magnus2131
11-28-2012, 17:42
Bonds and Clemens had Hall of Fame talent before the juicing but I'd say no to Big Mac and Sosa. I've always heard players said many more pitchers were on it than hitters.

eracer
11-28-2012, 18:00
No more or less than Babe Ruth should be in the HOF because he drank 5 gallons of Rye Whiskey a week.

Narkcop
11-28-2012, 18:07
The mere fact that they were on performance enhancing drugs does not take away from the fact that they had to be very skilled to perform as they did, McGwire,Sosa,Bonds hitting and Clemens pitching. They also had to work their a** off to stay in shape, I say let em in.

Dennis in MA
11-28-2012, 18:13
Probably yes to all of them, but omit the Steroid Years stats and awards.

Especially Clemens. He'd get in on Boston and Toronto alone.

inthefrey
11-28-2012, 18:24
The sad thing is, McGwire had the natural athleticism to beat most baseball players in home runs.

THAT'S IT in a nutshell and, what made it so sad. Think of all the kids who, now adults, look at that once special baseball he signed for them knowing now that he cheated using PED's.

It makes me wonder sometimes about the whole business of pro sports and if it is even worth watching anymore.:dunno:

Paul7
11-28-2012, 18:57
No.

Bonds didn't really put up huge numbers until he got on the juice. I remember watching him in batting practice at Wrigley Field when he cranked 9 in a row out. Of course later we found out why.

Little Joe
11-28-2012, 19:30
I"d say let them in. A lot of players used PEDs in the 80's, 90's, and 00's, and didn't produce like those guys. Gaylord Perry famous for cheating with the "spitter", and was actually caught red handed, is in the HOF. Everybody thinks that was colorful, cagey, and amusing. They were not caught red handed. Let them in.

Wil Ufgood
11-28-2012, 19:50
GH, roids let it all in. The pros should be performance freaks, not little miss mary down the block.

Little Joe
11-28-2012, 19:59
No.

Bonds didn't really put up huge numbers until he got on the juice. I remember watching him in batting practice at Wrigley Field when he cranked 9 in a row out. Of course later we found out why.

If you look at his stats here, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml , he most likely began use PEDs in 2000. He had already hit 445 home runs prior to that. He would have surely made it to 500 without PEDs, and 500 has always been an automatic ticket to the HOF. He was an HOF player before PEDs.

On the flip side, that extra production earned him $126 million from 2000 - 2007.

ray9898
11-28-2012, 20:16
And for those of you who say it's "cheating", that's a joke. These men didn't magically grow muscles and athletic ability, they worked their arses off, the roids just helped them.


I bet it was the milk.

http://forum.gon.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=474340&stc=1&d=1266539445

http://forum.gon.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=474341&stc=1&d=1266539445

....or I guess it could be their "hard work" just didn't pay off until their mid-30's instead of the normal time frame of a professional athlete which is a decade earlier.

Magnus2131
11-28-2012, 20:23
If you look at his stats here, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml , he most likely began use PEDs in 2000. He had already hit 445 home runs prior to that. He would have surely made it to 500 without PEDs, and 500 has always been an automatic ticket to the HOF. He was an HOF player before PEDs.

On the flip side, that extra production earned him $126 million from 2000 - 2007.
Then there was the stolen bases and a great fielder.

ateamer
11-28-2012, 20:41
Did the rules of Major League Baseball prohibit anabolic steroids at that time?

Little Joe
11-28-2012, 20:50
Then there was the stolen bases and a great fielder.

Absolutely, good call.

I admire the numbers Ken Griffey Jr. put up clean, and he suffered, basically, 4 lost seasons to bad injuries. A monster player the first half of his 22 year career. He finished with 630 homers, and was a great defensive player, as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/griffke02.shtml

Altaris
11-28-2012, 20:52
No. But Pete Rose should.

I agree.

Little Joe
11-28-2012, 21:02
Did the rules of Major League Baseball prohibit anabolic steroids at that time?

They were banned in 1991, but league wide testing didn't begin until 2003.

Former pitcher Tom House, drafted in 1967 and active in MLB from 1971-1978, has admitted to using "steroids they wouldn't give to horses" during his playing career. According to House, the use of performance-enhancing drugs was widespread at that time. He estimates that "six or seven" pitchers on every team were at least experimental users of steroids or human growth hormone, and says that after losses, players would frequently joke that they'd been "out-milligrammed" rather than beaten.

During the Pittsburgh drug trials in 1985, several players testified about the use of amphetamines in baseball. Shortstop Dale Berra admitted that he had used "greenies" while playing for both the Pittsburgh Pirates and the AAA Portland Beavers, and stated that while in Pittsburgh between 1979 and 1984 he had been supplied with the drugs by teammates Bill Madlock and Willie Stargell. Outfielder John Milner testified that while he was playing for the New York Mets, he had seen in the locker of teammate Willie Mays a powerful liquid amphetamine he called the "red juice".

Third baseman Mike Schmidt, an active player from 1972-1989, admitted to Murray Chass in 2006 that he had used amphetamines "a couple [of] times". In his book Clearing the Bases, he said that amphetamines "were widely available in major-league clubhouses" during his playing career, and that "amphetamine use in baseball is both far more common and has been going on a lot longer than steroid abuse".

Little Joe
11-28-2012, 21:03
I agree.

Definitely Rose should be in.

I read recently that there is no mechanism to allow him in, now.

CAcop
11-28-2012, 22:22
The way I look at it there was a pitching era when pitchers dominated so why not have a steroids era. Everyone was doing it so its not like it wasn't an unfair advantage.

Altaris
11-28-2012, 22:26
Everyone was doing it so its not like it wasn't an unfair advantage.


While that can be seen as a logical argument, it still doesn't fly in any sport. Just look at what has happened to Lance Armstrong, and his sport is far worse at cheating then baseball has ever been.

czsmithGT
11-28-2012, 22:48
Definitely Rose should be in.

I read recently that there is no mechanism to allow him in, now.

Rose accepted Bart Giamatti's permanent ban in 1989. He bet on games he managed- supposedly only betting on his team to win, but who knows.

Anyway he legally agreed to the ban so the only way he can get into the Hall of Fame is if MLB decides to reinstate him. This is because the HOF won't allow banned players on the ballot.

Rose's time for being elected by the usual process has expired but if he were ever to be reinstated the Veteran's Committee could elect him to the HOF.

ray9898
11-28-2012, 23:05
Rose accepted Bart Giamatti's permanent ban in 1989. He bet on games he managed- supposedly only betting on his team to win

The problem is baseball isnt only bet on by wins and loses, there are over/unders and runlines where someone could manage a team to win but not beat the odds. No different than points shaving in sports with a points spread.

CAcop
11-29-2012, 00:03
While that can be seen as a logical argument, it still doesn't fly in any sport. Just look at what has happened to Lance Armstrong, and his sport is far worse at cheating then baseball has ever been.

My post pretty much was my limits of caring who gets into Cooperstown.

In the end it is a bunch of people playing a game amking a lot of money for a lot of people. Pretending it is something bigger than it really is something I can't motivate myself enough to do. Hell, that last sentence took me a couple of minutes to write I was so uninterested.

I watch the games from time to time, I go even less frequently, and I will probably never set foot in the HOF.

Kentucky Shooter
11-29-2012, 05:22
No. But Pete Rose should.

This +1

Kentucky Shooter
11-29-2012, 05:24
All should be in the hall, the fact they aren't is why I don't watch baseball anymore. We've come to a point in society where male hormones are so taboo you here "low T" commercials because TESTOSTERONE (I say it proudly with my prostate cancer awareness month mustache) has successfully been demonized in our nanny state culture... The same culture that will likely make Sandra Fluke Time magazine person of the year for pushing for FREE female hormones!

Male hormones= Evil & Verbotten
Female hormones=virtuous & given for free

And for those of you who say it's "cheating", that's a joke. These men didn't magically grow muscles and athletic ability, they worked their arses off, the roids just helped them. Fact is we're not all born equal, some of us have 3-4x the testosterone of others, is that a "fair" advantage? Were Danny Devito & Shaq born equal? Same chance of being a pro athlete? As far as I'm concerned the roids jus help level the playing field.


So as far as I'm concerned, PEDs should be fair game in professional athletics, amateur sports I believe it's fair to ban PEDs. Even if you disagree with all that, these guys (Clemens, Bonds, Sosa and McGuire) took the stuff BEFORE it was against the rules, just saying. They're the ones who got singled out, a great MANY (probably a majority) of players were also taking it but didn't get caught or have a light shined on them because they weren't as good, so IMO it's very unfair.

Athletes are still using and always will use, only now it will be a select few who are willing to "cheat" who will get the advantage, instead of everyone.

Never thought of it this way, but lot of truth here

Brucev
11-29-2012, 06:06
Re: OP. No

mike from st pe
11-29-2012, 12:50
All should be in the hall, the fact they aren't is why I don't watch baseball anymore. We've come to a point in society where male hormones are so taboo you here "low T" commercials because TESTOSTERONE (I say it proudly with my prostate cancer awareness month mustache) has successfully been demonized in our nanny state culture... The same culture that will likely make Sandra Fluke Time magazine person of the year for pushing for FREE female hormones!

Male hormones= Evil & Verbotten
Female hormones=virtuous & given for free

And for those of you who say it's "cheating", that's a joke. These men didn't magically grow muscles and athletic ability, they worked their arses off, the roids just helped them. Fact is we're not all born equal, some of us have 3-4x the testosterone of others, is that a "fair" advantage? Were Danny Devito & Shaq born equal? Same chance of being a pro athlete? As far as I'm concerned the roids jus help level the playing field.


So as far as I'm concerned, PEDs should be fair game in professional athletics, amateur sports I believe it's fair to ban PEDs. Even if you disagree with all that, these guys (Clemens, Bonds, Sosa and McGuire) took the stuff BEFORE it was against the rules, just saying. They're the ones who got singled out, a great MANY (probably a majority) of players were also taking it but didn't get caught or have a light shined on them because they weren't as good, so IMO it's very unfair.

Athletes are still using and always will use, only now it will be a select few who are willing to "cheat" who will get the advantage, instead of everyone.

:agree:

glock1911revolver
11-29-2012, 13:04
I would say yes to all of them. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but after the '94 strike, major league baseball was floundering. I doubt the league would have cared if there were cyborgs out on the field. Mac v Sosa brought a lot of people back to baseball. The cry to start testing/suspending players was pretty quiet until Barry Bonds (close to, if not the biggest a-hole to ever play professional sports).

I would be surprised if the league was NOT encouraging players to do anything possible to hit 60+ homers.

My $.02

czsmithGT
11-29-2012, 14:24
I would say yes to all of them. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but after the '94 strike, major league baseball was floundering. I doubt the league would have cared if there were cyborgs out on the field. Mac v Sosa brought a lot of people back to baseball. The cry to start testing/suspending players was pretty quiet until Barry Bonds (close to, if not the biggest a-hole to ever play professional sports).

I would be surprised if the league was NOT encouraging players to do anything possible to hit 60+ homers.

My $.02

I think you have a good point. The baseball executives who get all huffy now about this sort of thing were laughing all the way to the bank when Sosa and McGuire started drawing back the fans. When I see a picture of Bud Selig the word "sanctimonious " comes to mind.

racerford
11-29-2012, 17:17
If Lance Armstrong deserved to have his titles stripped; then these guys should have theirs stripped as well (so all of the World Series rings, etc.). This would be in addition to no being able to get into the Hall of Fame. I am not sure if their teams should have to forfeit all of the games these players were in. That is what happens to high schools when a player is ruled ineligible.

Fair is Fair.