Crimes that criminals know they can get away with. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Gunhaver
11-29-2012, 04:44
It seems simple enough. Somebody gets my debit card info somehow and makes a $90 order to a website that's to be delivered to an address in Tennessee. The smart thing to do would be to flag that package, visit that address and see who picks it up and you have yourself a fraud case. They don't seemed too interested in doing that which is no surprise to me and I'm sure it's no surprise to the thief.

I can't help but be reminded of those cops that showed up to my freshly broken in to apartment and refused to print the glass change jar that was emptied out. Not worth the trouble to try catching petty break ins even though you know the little twerp was already in their system.

In the same neighborhood you couldn't leave your car doors locked or people would break the window just to look in the glove box. I'll never forget the neighborhood watch meeting where several overweight officers unanimously agreed that they'd all seen people in the process of breaking into cars and they just flashed the lights to scare them away. In their opinion it wasn't worth the trouble to chase people for what they considered a "petty crime".

Is there something illegal going on in your neck of the woods simply because it's been deemed more trouble than it's worth to deal with?

airmotive
11-29-2012, 04:56
After the Trevon Martin debacle, I can see more and more "just shut your blinds and look the other way" method of crime prevention.

Bruce M
11-29-2012, 04:56
... The smart thing to do would be to flag that package, visit that address and see who picks it up and you have yourself a fraud case. They don't seemed too interested in doing that which is no surprise to me ...?


You do understand that for a successful prosecution they may well need you there to testify that it was not you/not your signature etc. And even if you were willing to go to Tennessee or wherever for that, it is always possible that the nice credit card people may not want to pay to have a records custodian there for the testimony that may well be needed from him or her for successful prosecution. And the trip may have to be repeated a few times for depositions, continuances, etc. Not condoning this but the reality is that "getting yourself a fraud case" can be a bit more complex and appreciably more expensive than it seems at first glance.

BobbyT
11-29-2012, 04:59
In my "progressive" mecca of One Party Rule, it's not petty crimes. Thus literally get away with murder because they and their supportive mamas and rev'runs are valued constituents.

If you live in a free/sane state, the argument against what you describe is the Broken Window Theory, and it's a pretty good one.

BobbyT
11-29-2012, 05:04
You do understand that for a successful prosecution they may well need you there to testify that it was not you/not your signature etc. And even if you were willing to go to Tennessee or wherever for that, it is always possible that the nice credit card people may not want to pay to have a records custodian there for the testimony that may well be needed from him or her for successful prosecution. And the trip may have to be repeated a few times for depositions, continuances, etc. Not condoning this but the reality is that "getting yourself a fraud case" can be a bit more complex and appreciably more expensive than it seems at first glance.

The problem is that this logic creates a very expensive moral hazard. It's the same as when companies settle frivolous cases rather than risk losing more in court, thus attracting parasite lawyers and entitled Ghetto Lottery chasers.

Better to draw a line in the stand, spend the effort making an example of small time fraudsters, and fight every single ridiculous lawsuit, knowing you may lose from time to time but eliminating the "easy payday" incentive.

JW1178
11-29-2012, 05:09
An old friend of mine was beaten up by a couple guys because he was dating one of the guy's ex girfriend. He knew their names and all, but not their adresses. The police did nothing about it, told him to stay out of drama. Fact is, they just spotted him with her at the gas station, and he didn't even know who or why they were beating him until his girl said "that was my ex and his best friend". Needless to say, he couldn't get crap done. I don't know if anything came of it afterwards, but I know this, someone randomly jumps me like that, the cops better find them before I do.

Arc Angel
11-29-2012, 05:18
How is this package going to be delivered? If through the USPS then try to get government postal investigators involved.

CarryTexas
11-29-2012, 07:43
A few years ago my CC# was stolen and some paid there car insurance in England. That should be an easy case to solve. I doubt it was pursued.

Bren
11-29-2012, 07:51
It seems simple enough. Somebody gets my debit card info somehow and makes a $90 order to a website that's to be delivered to an address in Tennessee. The smart thing to do would be to flag that package, visit that address and see who picks it up and you have yourself a fraud case. They don't seemed too interested in doing that which is no surprise to me and I'm sure it's no surprise to the thief.

I can't help but be reminded of those cops that showed up to my freshly broken in to apartment and refused to print the glass change jar that was emptied out. Not worth the trouble to try catching petty break ins even though you know the little twerp was already in their system.

In the same neighborhood you couldn't leave your car doors locked or people would break the window just to look in the glove box. I'll never forget the neighborhood watch meeting where several overweight officers unanimously agreed that they'd all seen people in the process of breaking into cars and they just flashed the lights to scare them away. In their opinion it wasn't worth the trouble to chase people for what they considered a "petty crime".

Is there something illegal going on in your neck of the woods simply because it's been deemed more trouble than it's worth to deal with?


You should move to the country. Sounds like your neighborhood sucks.

However, I know what you mean - in a small town, the police have the time to put into smaller cases, but the bigger the city the more they have to let go, due to manpower and budget. It sucks, but how many fingerprint experts and AFIS equipment, etc., can they afford? Usually cars and people on the street get top priority.

I have had my debit card number stolen twice - one it was used to try and get cash, through an online gambling site (most likely by a waiter at a local restaurant) and another time it was used to buy a video game that was shipped to New Jersey. Even the banks don't seem very interested in it.

HerrGlock
11-29-2012, 07:51
You should rent some Charles Bronson movies.

series1811
11-29-2012, 08:00
People get the police force, and the attention from that police force to whatever crimes the deem worthy, that they demand.

We had a local sheriff who went before our county governing board a couple of years ago to ask for his budget.

They asked him how much money he wanted, and he told them that was the wrong question. He said, I can operate this department with one deputy or 500. You just have to decide how much law enforcement you want and then ask me how much that will cost.

When there is more crime than police can handle, the police prioritize, based on what the citizens tell them they want. Not all citizens will agree with those instructions and those priorities.

Z71bill
11-29-2012, 08:10
If the government doesn't want to enforce the laws that they already have on the books - then they sould take those laws off the books - and stop adding so many new laws.

RenoF250
11-29-2012, 08:18
An old friend of mine was beaten up by a couple guys because he was dating one of the guy's ex girfriend. He knew their names and all, but not their adresses. The police did nothing about it, told him to stay out of drama. Fact is, they just spotted him with her at the gas station, and he didn't even know who or why they were beating him until his girl said "that was my ex and his best friend". Needless to say, he couldn't get crap done. I don't know if anything came of it afterwards, but I know this, someone randomly jumps me like that, the cops better find them before I do.

I think I would at least ask the cops if they are going to give the other two guys the same answer when they come in complaining I beat the $#%@ out of them with a bat? :dunno:

Officer X
11-29-2012, 08:21
In my state, the police are precluded, (with a few, specific exceptions) by statute in signing complaints/making arrests for minor disorderly persons offenses.

Harassment, Simple Assault, Criminal Mischief or Theft (under a specific dollar amount) are some of these.

As I wrote, there are some exceptions either by statute or case law, which are specific in certain instances which give the officer the ability to make an arrest.

The correct way in these cases is to advise the victim how to sign their own complaints in court. That can be fun times to try to do as people argue that we're not "doing our job" or want us to sign complaints which we can't legally do.

Officer X
11-29-2012, 08:26
I think I would at least ask the cops if they are going to give the other two guys the same answer when they come in complaining I beat the $#%@ out of them with a bat? :dunno:

In NJ, getting "beat up" with no aggravated or serious injuries, would be a simple assault (a disorderly persons offense). It would carry the potential of 'jail' time of up to one year and a fine. Unless the officer witnessed it or the suspect came right out and confessed, the officer can't make the arrest and the victim would have to sign their own complaints in municipal court.

Beating the $#% out of them with a bat would more than likely be Aggravated Assault and Possession of a Weapon for an Unlawful Purpose, minimum 4th degree crimes that would be heard in Superior Court with the potential of 'prison' time. That would make it much easier for an arrest to be made on probable cause.

Chuck TX
11-29-2012, 09:10
People get the police force, and the attention from that police force to whatever crimes the deem worthy, that they demand.

We had a local sheriff who went before our county governing board a couple of years ago to ask for his budget.

They asked him how much money he wanted, and he told them that was the wrong question. He said, I can operate this department with one deputy or 500. You just have to decide how much law enforcement you want and then ask me how much that will cost.

When there is more crime than police can handle, the police prioritize, based on what the citizens tell them they want. Not all citizens will agree with those instructions and those priorities.

This seems to especially be an issue in rural counties that experience a sudden influx in population (and crime) where the budget hasn't had time to catch up. From my unfortunate experience that makes for a perfect window for burglars to have a heyday.

If you don't have the budget, manpower, and technology, what can you do?

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 09:24
Somebody gets my debit card info somehow and makes a $90 order to a website that's to be delivered to an address in Tennessee. The smart thing to do would be to flag that package, visit that address and see who picks it up and you have yourself a fraud case.

It'd cost far more than $90 to do that, is the problem.

SGT HATRED
11-29-2012, 09:35
Is there something illegal going on in your neck of the woods simply because it's been deemed more trouble than it's worth to deal with?

Yeah ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION......

SC Tiger
11-29-2012, 09:55
Is there something illegal going on in your neck of the woods simply because it's been deemed more trouble than it's worth to deal with?


Stolen Toshiba tablets.

ray9898
11-29-2012, 10:09
I wish GT would make up their mind. Is LE plain lazy or are we JBT's ruining lives by locking people up for nothing? I hear it both ways.

HerrGlock
11-29-2012, 10:13
I wish GT would make up their mind. Is LE plain lazy or are we JBT's ruining lives by locking people up for nothing? I hear it both ways.

Lazy Jack Booted Thugs.

Simple :cool:

Cavalry Doc
11-29-2012, 10:21
I wish GT would make up their mind. Is LE plain lazy or are we JBT's ruining lives by locking people up for nothing? I hear it both ways.

It's a forum. You'd probably have trouble getting some individual's to be consistent, never the forum.

Cavalry Doc
11-29-2012, 10:22
It seems simple enough. Somebody gets my debit card info somehow and makes a $90 order to a website that's to be delivered to an address in Tennessee. The smart thing to do would be to flag that package, visit that address and see who picks it up and you have yourself a fraud case. They don't seemed too interested in doing that which is no surprise to me and I'm sure it's no surprise to the thief.

I can't help but be reminded of those cops that showed up to my freshly broken in to apartment and refused to print the glass change jar that was emptied out. Not worth the trouble to try catching petty break ins even though you know the little twerp was already in their system.

In the same neighborhood you couldn't leave your car doors locked or people would break the window just to look in the glove box. I'll never forget the neighborhood watch meeting where several overweight officers unanimously agreed that they'd all seen people in the process of breaking into cars and they just flashed the lights to scare them away. In their opinion it wasn't worth the trouble to chase people for what they considered a "petty crime".

Is there something illegal going on in your neck of the woods simply because it's been deemed more trouble than it's worth to deal with?

Marijuana use and sodomy laws. (Private joke with OP)

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 10:35
Marijuana use and sodomy laws. (Private joke with OP)

"Private joke" eh? You boys can do whatever you want to do behind closed doors, we won't judge. :whistling:

HollowHead
11-29-2012, 10:39
Is there something illegal going on in your neck of the woods simply because it's been deemed more trouble than it's worth to deal with?

Yes...the sale and abuse of prescription drugs. Our new chief of police is a devout teatotaller to the extent that Carrie Nation would be shocked and has cruisers parked at every bar every night. Meanwhile the kids are selling more oxies than the entire CVS chain. HH

ray9898
11-29-2012, 10:42
Lazy Jack Booted Thugs.

Simple :cool:



Now it all makes sense....thanks!:tongueout:

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 10:52
However, I know what you mean - in a small town, the police have the time to put into smaller cases, but the bigger the city the more they have to let go, due to manpower and budget. It sucks, but how many fingerprint experts and AFIS equipment, etc., can they afford? Usually cars and people on the street get top priority.

.

There is so much truth to this.

I am an Officer in a smaller town. I work my own calls, no matter what they are. (with some exceptions) If I have no calls. (most often weekday afternoons) I patrol and work traffic. If I get a call, I am the investigator. (small town cops wear a lot of hats) If I have the time, your *small* crime will get investigated and sometimes solved. If I dont have the time, I am sorry. We dont have the resources available to be more thorough.

For example, I get a call because someone had something taken from their parked car at the Wal-Mart. If I have nothing else going on, I will do all I can to investigate. From spending all the time it takes to go through the video to lifting prints (If I think that is productive) and then I may actually go out and activly seek the person if I have leads.

Of course most of the time, I have no leads and that upsets the hell out of people that I cant do anything for them.

...and sometimes I am busy and cant even start, so they get information on how to come in and file the complaint.

In the big cities, many of the tasks are compartmentalized. Patrol might show up but they call in people....and those people might be too busy.

It sucks, I understand. I would love to be able to solve every crime. I cant and there isnt enough time to even start. The other side of that is, when you are a victim, it is the most important thing in YOUR world. I understand that as well but that doesnt make it the most important thing in THE world. Your car break in might have to wait because I am dealing with a shooting.

skeeter7
11-29-2012, 10:58
OP, love the avatar... :rofl:

Batesmotel
11-29-2012, 11:07
Siphoning gas has become a problem here. The real expense is in order to get the hose on the tank they damage the car disabling any sort of anti-siphon device. You might need to get it fixed to pass emissions.

Cops can't patrol every neighborhood looking between cars all night.

syntaxerrorsix
11-29-2012, 11:23
Siphoning gas has become a problem here. The real expense is in order to get the hose on the tank they damage the car disabling any sort of anti-siphon device. You might need to get it fixed to pass emissions.

Cops can't patrol every neighborhood looking between cars all night.


I've seen instances where the just pop a screwdriver through the tank to drain it. I bet the bill on that little repair was a real treat.

Cavalry Doc
11-29-2012, 11:40
"Private joke" eh? You boys can do whatever you want to do behind closed doors, we won't judge. :whistling:


Oh, it ain't me. It's all in two threads in GT political issues.

wvtarheel
11-29-2012, 11:44
Yes...the sale and abuse of prescription drugs. Our new chief of police is a devout teatotaller to the extent that Carrie Nation would be shocked and has cruisers parked at every bar every night. Meanwhile the kids are selling more oxies than the entire CVS chain. HH

I live in West Virginia and this is a huge problem here. We have pain clinics in some counties that write more prescriptions in one day than there are people living in the entire county. Not really a "beat cop" problem but a frustrating law enforcement issue nonetheless.

HollowHead
11-29-2012, 11:49
I live in West Virginia and this is a huge problem here. We have pain clinics in some counties that write more prescriptions in one day than there are people living in the entire county. Not really a "beat cop" problem but a frustrating law enforcement issue nonetheless.

We don't have any pain clinics per se, but our pharmacies and vet clinics/animal hospitals are getting broken into weekly because these punks know all the cops are hounding the bars. HH

Patchman
11-29-2012, 11:57
I wish GT would make up their mind. Is LE plain lazy or are we JBT's ruining lives by locking people up for nothing? I hear it both ways.

It depends on whether the poster is a crime victim or not.

If the poster is a crime victim, and the BG is not immediately caught and the property returned, the cops are lazy.

Otherwise LE is just JBTs.

Patchman
11-29-2012, 11:59
I live in West Virginia and this is a huge problem here. We have pain clinics in some counties that write more prescriptions in one day than there are people living in the entire county. Not really a "beat cop" problem but a frustrating law enforcement issue nonetheless.

I see it as a medical ethics issue.

Patchman
11-29-2012, 12:09
As for credit cards, the CC issuers are the only victims. And CC issuers don't see cracking down on fraud as an issue they're willing to do anything about.

The CC holder doesn't have to pay for the bogus charge. The merchant that sold the item still gets paid. It's the CC issuer who's out the $90. If CC issuers really wanted to cut down on fraud, they would take several steps, including issuing PIN numbers which must be entered. They could demand merchants ask for a separate ID and scan that ID into the CC system. Card holders going overseas must contact the CC issuer first or purchases will be declined. Mail orders that go to a different address from the card holder's would not get approved until the cardholder is contacted and verifies the order is legit. But that, and any other security steps, would cause CC usage to decline, which the issuers won't let happen.

Or the CC issuer figures no one is forced to apply for a CC.

Lone_Wolfe
11-29-2012, 12:10
A few years ago my CC# was stolen and some paid there car insurance in England. That should be an easy case to solve. I doubt it was pursued.

I'll bet that's the reason they wouldn't touch it, assuming you were Stateside at the time. Even if it was a felony amount.

My past experience around here is that the cops don't take any time to investigate most burglaries, but will make arrests if the case is an easy one, or if a lot of burglaries look like they were done by the same person.

Patchman
11-29-2012, 12:18
I once had my CC used fraudulently. Someone used it to purchase two mail order items in London. The items were shipped to an address in Germany.

My local police is not going to the store in London to check the sale records. And they're not traveling to Germany to track down the address and who may live there.

Ask the London police to go to the store? Is the crime committed at the location where the phone call/internet sale originated (probably U.S.), or received (London)? IDK.

Same thing with the German Post delivering that package. Is delivery of that package against German postal laws? IDK.

What it comes down to is, CC issuers are reluctant to help. IIRC, when CC first became popular, the issuers required you to first make a police report for fraud use. Now you just call and they send you an affidavit where you just sign. Heck I even know of cases where someone uses a CC they applied for, run up the bill, then tell the issuer that they never received the card.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 12:19
As for credit cards, the CC issuers are the only victims. And CC issuers don't see cracking down on fraud as an issue they're willing to do anything about.

This is simply ludicrous. Fraud prevention is a multi-billion dollar industry that credit card issuers take very seriously. There are literally thousands of people employed in the industry.

The merchant that sold the item still gets paid. It's the CC issuer who's out the $90.

One of the main things that the fraud departments at issuing banks try to do is push back the fraud liability to the merchants. If they find any rule the merchant forgot to follow, the merchant gets to eat the liability.

If CC issuers really wanted to cut down on fraud, they would take several steps, including issuing PIN numbers which must be entered.

EMV is a well-understood and successful international standard. The reason why we don't have chip-and-PIN in the US isn't that issuers don't "want" to do it, it's that networks are afraid that they'll lose transaction volume by forcing merchants to upgrade their POS and terminal hardware.

It's coming, but every time the deadline gets close it gets pushed back by one industry group or another. There's a huge installed base that needs to get converted.

Dennis in MA
11-29-2012, 12:26
Jaywalking. :)



Just remember Bill Bennett (it was Billy-B, right?) cleaned up the NY Subway by stopping fare-jumpers and providing unmolested subway cars. Maybe chasing $90 will stop $1,000 from running away.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:32
Jaywalking. :)



Just remember Bill Bennett (it was Billy-B, right?) cleaned up the NY Subway by stopping fare-jumpers and providing unmolested subway cars. Maybe chasing $90 will stop $1,000 from running away.

I dont disagree....but if you have a $1000 case and a $90 case....guess which one probably gets worked?


There is the right thing(what you would like to do) to do and then there is what you can do. Life sucks like that sometimes.

Patchman
11-29-2012, 12:51
This is simply ludicrous. Fraud prevention is a multi-billion dollar industry that credit card issuers take very seriously. There are literally thousands of people employed in the industry.


You raise a good point that I need to learn more about. Yes, fraud prevention is huge business but my impression is that the vast majority of that business/resources is used to man the front gate, that is, to prevent people from applying for CC by fraudulent means. But much lesser resources are being used to track down and stop frauds by already issued (ie: legitimately issued) cards.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 12:55
You raise a good point that I need to learn more about. Yes, fraud prevention is huge business but my impression is that the vast majority of that business/resources is used to man the front gate, that is, to prevent people from applying for CC by fraudulent means. But much lesser resources are being used to track down and stop frauds by legitimately issued cards.

That's partly true. Once the fraud has happened, there's essentially no focus on "tracking down" who did it until it becomes a six-figure theft. It's just not worth doing on the issuer side, and the issuer is not a law enforcement agency in any case.

On the other hand, there is a huge amount of emphasis placed on "stopping" fraud. Inline fraud detection is a huge thing. That's why you sometimes get calls asking if these "unusual transactions" were really you--they're constantly monitoring for things like transactions made in weird places.

nmk
11-29-2012, 13:06
A few years ago one my credit cards was used for several online purchases and a Netflix subscription. It wasn't nearly enough money for anyone to pursue.

Netflix refused to give me the address because it wasn't my account even though they verified that I was paying for it. Seemed weird...

Patchman
11-29-2012, 13:19
On the other hand, there is a huge amount of emphasis placed on "stopping" fraud. Inline fraud detection is a huge thing. That's why you sometimes get calls asking if these "unusual transactions" were really you--they're constantly monitoring for things like transactions made in weird places.

And they do seem to be doing a much better job. But I'll just relate what I told my CC issuer when they did call me that one time. I said: Yes, I did get a voice mail about it being very important to contact my credit card issuer. But I'll be damned if I was going to call some 1-800 number "they" left on my voice mail and then have to provide the person on the other end of the line my CC security information. Which is why I waited until I got to the office and called the number on the back of the CC.

Glockdude1
11-29-2012, 13:21
Stolen Toshiba tablets.

.........and posting pics from said Toshiba Tablet on GT......

:rofl:

Geko45
11-29-2012, 13:23
It'd cost far more than $90 to do that, is the problem.

But the guy that did it has probably lied, cheated or stolen their way into much more than $90.

I don't fault the police though. The metaphor of the thin blue line is exactly right. There are over 2 million people within the city limits of Houston. To police that population, the city has 5400 sworn officers. Divide that into shifts and the number on the street at any given time is a practically meaningless ratio. There is no way they can actually work every crime. The best they can do is be seen as much as possible to create the illusion of active law enforcement. Houston is not the only town like this. The only thing that separates most major cities from total anarchy is essentially a bluff.

Ftttu
11-29-2012, 13:38
Here is one we've been dealing with over the last few years. Someone would call to a house, identifying themselves as a niece or nephew of the elderly person receiving the call. The elderly Hispanic person, not wanting to be embarrassed, keeps up the conversation. The caller then would ask for money to be sent to them because they were needing medical assistance after having been involved in an accident, were in jail, or some other imminent reason money needed to be sent. The elderly person would then send money by Western Union or some other way to the call there in Mexico.

So, if you don't know the caller, don't be embarrassed to have them identify themselves to you. Blame it on the line quality or whatever. Also, when some callers did get wise to the caller, the caller threatened to come up into the US and kill them along with their family.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 22:06
But the guy that did it has probably lied, cheated or stolen their way into much more than $90.

I don't fault the police though. The metaphor of the thin blue line is exactly right. There are over 2 million people within the city limits of Houston. To police that population, the city has 5400 sworn officers. Divide that into shifts and the number on the street at any given time is a practically meaningless ratio. There is no way they can actually work every crime. The best they can do is be seen as much as possible to create the illusion of active law enforcement. Houston is not the only town like this. The only thing that separates most major cities from total anarchy is essentially a bluff.

Yes, if you actually do the math for most places, the amount of Officers that are available at any given time is a shockingly small number.

Gunhaver
11-29-2012, 23:31
You do understand that for a successful prosecution they may well need you there to testify that it was not you/not your signature etc. And even if you were willing to go to Tennessee or wherever for that, it is always possible that the nice credit card people may not want to pay to have a records custodian there for the testimony that may well be needed from him or her for successful prosecution. And the trip may have to be repeated a few times for depositions, continuances, etc. Not condoning this but the reality is that "getting yourself a fraud case" can be a bit more complex and appreciably more expensive than it seems at first glance.

This pretty much makes my point. Crimes that are too much trouble to prosecute so the criminals know it's a safe crime to commit. It's one thing when you get ripped off for 90 bucks (which should be fixed my Monday I'm told) and the people that you talk to about it basically throw their hands up in the air and admit that they barely have a handle on the system as it is. They can find and prosecute these people if they want to. They have to find enough of them to keep the deterrent effect high enough to allow the banking systems to operate at a level that people will tolerate. I think my problem was in communication with the people from the CC company. There were two of them that I talked to that commented that I was more concerned with catching the ****s than getting my money back and most people are more concerned with getting the money back in the account so that's the questioning they're prepared to answer.

cowboywannabe
11-30-2012, 00:06
welfare fraud seems to be the easiest to get away with.

JW1178
11-30-2012, 04:44
welfare fraud seems to be the easiest to get away with.

Yes it is. Very rarely does the government ever go after those who obviously have committed fraud. All they usually do is cut the bennifits. They might ask for the money back.

As well as the welfare frauds, there are those who use a variety of government systems to defraud the taxpayers. Ironically, the justice department is often guilty of this.