Should there be a warranty on doctor's services? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 09:15
A lot of things have a warranty or a money back guarantee; why not one for doctor's services?

A couple of years ago, I had a heart attack while I was working out. The doctor put a stent in my heart. The next weekend, I was working out again, with the doctor's blessing, and I had another heart attack. Turns out the stent was messed up. A different doc went in to fix that one. The original doc saw what the second doc did and wanted to fix his mistakes. He accidentally severed an artery which led to open heart surgery and a bypass. The bypass failed which led to another heart attack, which led to some more work.

It all ended up costing a lot of money, which between me and the insurance company was all paid. Friends wanted me to sue but I am of the nature that folks make mistakes. Lately though, I have been thinking that between the docs and the hospital, I, and my insurance company shouldn't have had to pay for their services after the first stent. Like it should have been on them to pay for their mistakes.

Anyone else feel this way or have a similar experience?

2bgop
11-29-2012, 09:25
A lot of things have a warranty or a money back guarantee; why not one for doctor's services?

A couple of years ago, I had a heart attack while I was working out. The doctor put a stent in my heart. The next weekend, I was working out again, with the doctor's blessing, and I had another heart attack. Turns out the stent was messed up. A different doc went in to fix that one. The original doc saw what the second doc did and wanted to fix his mistakes. He accidentally severed an artery which led to open heart surgery and a bypass. The bypass failed which led to another heart attack, which led to some more work.

It all ended up costing a lot of money, which between me and the insurance company was all paid. Friends wanted me to sue but I am of the nature that folks make mistakes. Lately though, I have been thinking that between the docs and the hospital, I, and my insurance company shouldn't have had to pay for their services after the first stent. Like it should have been on them to pay for their mistakes.

Anyone else feel this way or have a similar experience?

You have a recourse available now, just open the yellow pages to Attorney. There will be 100s willing to listen.

dango
11-29-2012, 09:27
I was a high end designer and builder of fine furniture all my life .
Point being , I was held to a higher standard than the medical proffession, No mercy , no flaws , perfection every time.

On the other hand , I,ve been to six different doctors to finally find out what my problem was. They didn't fix anything and yes , I had to pay them . Makes one wander ?

The problem turned out quite serious but after three surgeries ,
I'm ok now . I should not have payed the others .......!

jollygreen
11-29-2012, 09:28
There is a warranty. It's called malpractice insurance. And you should definitely sue, assuming you can document all you just described.

I can pretty much guarantee that the quack who did the first procedure is well acquainted with the process by now.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 09:29
Lately though, I have been thinking that between the docs and the hospital, I, and my insurance company shouldn't have had to pay for their services after the first stent. Like it should have been on them to pay for their mistakes.

If you genuinely feel that this is the way the system "should" work (in the sense that the system would work better if it was this way) the solution is simple. Find some investors and some doctors, and start a medical practice or a hospital that works this way.

If you're right, you'll be more successful than other hospitals and everyone will switch to your model. If you're wrong, you'll go out of business.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 09:30
I was a high end designer and builder of fine furniture all my life .
Point being , I was held to a higher standard than the medical proffession

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Obi Wan
11-29-2012, 09:31
I completely agree with you. And include dentists while we're at.

My wife had her gall bladder removed several years ago. She's 5'2", 100 lbs, and in good physical shape. Shortly after the surgery, she developed a hernia in the incision area. The doctor's reply was that "they never put a suture in a vertical incision of the muscle since it should grow closed". Well, that may be fine on fat people, but apparently not on trim women who don't have muscle depth. After he then went back in to install a mesh screen over the hole - which has subsequently developed a fair amount of painful scar tissue in the area - he had the nerve to send me a bill for his services. Keep in mind that he was already paid over $950 by the insurance company, but wanted another few hundred from us. I told him we wouldn't pay it because he should have put a suture in the original incision and all of this wouldn't have happened. He replied that it was "standard procedure to NOT use a suture to close the cut", and if I didn't pay his bill he wouldn't see my wife any longer as her doctor. I told him she already said he was never going to touch her again and he'd be lucky if my lawyer didn't respond to him next.

Yes, IMO, there should be a 'Warranty' for professional services and judgment.

ray9898
11-29-2012, 09:32
Doctors don't live in a world of black and white, there are millions of variables. Many times there simply is no 100% right answer.

To compare a Doctor treating a heart issue like you would a mechanic swapping a car battery is the wrong train of thought.

nmk
11-29-2012, 09:35
I was a high end designer and builder of fine furniture all my life .
Point being , I was held to a higher standard than the medical proffession, No mercy , no flaws , perfection every time.



Do you honestly believe this is a fair comparison?

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 09:36
Do you honestly believe this is a fair comparison?

Sure, repairing someone's heart should be as foolproof as making an easy chair.

Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 09:45
If you genuinely feel that this is the way the system "should" work (in the sense that the system would work better if it was this way) the solution is simple. Find some investors and some doctors, and start a medical practice or a hospital that works this way.

If you're right, you'll be more successful than other hospitals and everyone will switch to your model. If you're wrong, you'll go out of business.

Certainly I could try your suggestion, but I think you are making this issue more black and white than it is. As 2bgop pointed out, there are lots of lawyers who would like a crack at cases like this, but that ends up costing more money than a "warranty" service would cost. The car industry has figured out a way to keep their customers safe by issuing recalls; bad product, they pay to fix it. That seems to work well for many consumer goods; why not medicine?

The cardiologist, with whom I've become friends, told me that he had never done that before, and it rattled him like no other case. As I mentioned earlier, a lawsuit solution was never an option for me. We all make mistakes.

Psychman
11-29-2012, 09:47
Sure, repairing someone's heart should be as foolproof as making an easy chair.
:rofl::rofl: good one

GRD67
11-29-2012, 09:48
I think doctors should not be paid until they cure you, no cure no pay.

Gun Shark
11-29-2012, 09:51
I think doctors should not be paid until they cure you, no cure no pay.

Then I guess oncologists should work for free then. Or what about all the other afflictions that can't be cured yet.


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Altaris
11-29-2012, 09:55
I think doctors should not be paid until they cure you, no cure no pay.

I would hate to be a doctor dealing with cancer then.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 10:07
Then I guess oncologists should work for free then. Or what about all the other afflictions that can't be cured yet.


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I wonder why there is no cure yet, I was going to a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for. Such as cancers modern medicine they told the people there was no cure for, Lupus, Lou Gerig disease, MD, ect. His name was Hen Sen Chin and you didn't have to sell your house to pay him.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 10:12
I wonder why there is no cure yet, I was going to a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for.
Good luck with that.

Such as cancers modern medicine they told the people there was no cure for, Lupus, Lou Gerig disease, MD, ect. His name was Hen Sen Chin and you didn't have to sell your house to pay him.

I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell you.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 10:21
Good luck with that.



I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell you.

You can try to sell all the bridges you want, I'm just telling you what I experienced and saw. Many of Hen Sen's patients here in the Seattle area were Doctors who also brought their families to see him.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 10:25
You can try to sell all the bridges you want, I just telling you what I experienced and saw. Many of Hen Sen's patient here in the Seattle area were Doctors who also brought their families to see him.

You dont know what you are seeing. That is the problem.

ronin_the_great
11-29-2012, 10:29
When it comes down to it, they call it "practicing" medicine for a reason. Not a whole lot of recourse other than to sue if there was a clear sign of malice or incompetence. You pays your money and takes your chances.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 10:30
I think doctors should not be paid until they cure you, no cure no pay.

I think you should learn what doctors do.

Most doctors diagnose and treat. Few cure. For an obvious example, you get your leg torn off in a car wreck. How do you cure that? (you dont) you treat the injury.

Do you know what a Pathologist is? If you need one, YOU NEED ONE. He isnt going to cure you but you will be very happy to pay him for his services.

There are countless other examples and again, the problem is your lack of understanding of the roles of doctors.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 10:33
You can try to sell all the bridges you want, I'm just telling you what I experienced and saw.

Let me ask you something.

If I were to say I have a device that lets me turn magically weightless, you would tell me to prove it. Isn't that right?

Logic tells you that if I did indeed have such a device and it actually worked, I would have tried to sell it. Such a thing would be incredibly valuable.

Apply the same logic to a "cancer cure" that some guy in Seattle has.

If such a cure actually worked--as in, after doing double-blind clinical trials, the cure produced statistically significant results--it would be worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Maybe trillions. The guy who proved that he had a cure for cancer could buy himself a small country.

Why doesn't your Seattle friend do so?

The logical answer is, his "cure" doesn't work. This is doubly true since he doesn't claim to have invented it; he claims that Chinese medicine has known about it for hundreds of years.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 10:34
You dont know what you are seeing. That is the problem.

I'll tell you what I saw, I saw people in total despair because their Doctors told them they could not cure them, come to see Hen Sen and he cured their disease. I learned through this that a lot of people are buying the bridge.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 10:36
I'll tell you what I saw, I saw people in total despair because their Doctors told them they could not cure them, come to see Hen Sen and he cured their disease.

OK, then let's start with an easy one: define "cured their disease."

686Owner
11-29-2012, 10:36
I wonder why there is no cure yet, I was going to a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for. Such as cancers modern medicine they told the people there was no cure for, Lupus, Lou Gerig disease, MD, ect. His name was Hen Sen Chin and you didn't have to sell your house to pay him.

Why do people in China still die of cancer then?

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 10:37
You can try to sell all the bridges you want, I'm just telling you what I experienced and saw. Many of Hen Sen's patients here in the Seattle area were Doctors who also brought their families to see him.

I have a very close and loved relative who has terminal cancer. My wife is a noted surgeon and speaks medicine as well as anyone on the planet. Can you please provide me with the names of Medical Doctors who see him so we can call them and find out about these miracles performed by this man?

I am dead serious. Will you help me with my loved one? You made some fantastic claims, please help.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 10:47
I think you should learn what doctors do.

Most doctors diagnose and treat. Few cure. For an obvious example, you get your leg torn off in a car wreck. How do you cure that? (you dont) you treat the injury.

Do you know what a Pathologist is? If you need one, YOU NEED ONE. He isnt going to cure you but you will be very happy to pay him for his services.

There are countless other examples and again, the problem is your lack of understanding of the roles of doctors.

I'm talking about diseases Rabbi not trauma . However if I do have a trauma situation I would want to take yunnan baiyao.

dango
11-29-2012, 10:48
Do you honestly believe this is a fair comparison?

You're missing the point here . I told them what was happening , my symptoms. They told me it was the DT's from alcohol with-drawl. I don,t drink and never have have. I passed out one of many times and the last time , I fell on my running table saw and lost part of my left hand.
The so called "DOCTOR" said there was nothing wrong and sent me on my way !
A week later , I fell into a coma , heart rate 20. Fair you say ?
No test , no MRI , just nothing wrong DT's........? Fair comparison ? You tell me how fair it was not to take the time to look at anything nor listen to me.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 10:49
I wonder why there is no cure yet, I was going to a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for. Such as cancers modern medicine they told the people there was no cure for, Lupus, Lou Gerig disease, MD, ect. His name was Hen Sen Chin and you didn't have to sell your house to pay him.

Does he have Bigfoot bones? I heard that stuff works wonders.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 10:51
I have a very close and loved relative who has terminal cancer. My wife is a noted surgeon and speaks medicine as well as anyone on the planet. Can you please provide me with the names of Medical Doctors who see him so we can call them and find out about these miracles performed by this man?

I am dead serious. Will you help me with my loved one? You made some fantastic claims, please help.

Hen Sen passed away many years ago, but he never retired, he treated many people right to the end. Rabbi I don't know who the Doctor's were his assistant told me this.

jollygreen
11-29-2012, 11:00
I wonder why there is no cure yet, I was going to a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for. Such as cancers modern medicine they told the people there was no cure for, Lupus, Lou Gerig disease, MD, ect. His name was Hen Sen Chin and you didn't have to sell your house to pay him.


No doubt. And if you had been here in Tulsa Oral Roberts would have healed you for free.


http://williamsofmiceandmen.wikispaces.com/file/view/Skeptical-Cat.jpeg/254433540/Skeptical-Cat.jpeg

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 11:00
Hen Sen passed away many years ago, but he never retired, he treated many people right to the end. Rabbi I don't know who the Doctor's were his assistant told me this.

Ah, I see, you are passing on second hand information about a dead guy from third parties.

Can I contact this assistant. This person seemed to not have a problem telling people this information. It couldnt be a secret, or you wouldnt tell us, you wouldnt violate someones trust like that would you?

If I can get in touch with this assistant, I can find who these medical doctors are and my wife, again a medical doctor, can talk to them and I can save the life of my loved one.

Will you help me? Please dont let my loved one die. You have the information I need to save her life.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 11:04
You're missing the point here

No, I'm pretty sure it's you.

Did you have to go to school for 12 years to be allowed to make furniture?

Does the government tell you what you can bill for your services?

Does your furniture actively try to sabotage your efforts while you're building it?

Does your furniture lie to you about whether it's been taking its meds?

Trying to say you're "held to a higher standard" is simply ludicrous. You cannot compare the two.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 11:05
Let me ask you something.

If I were to say I have a device that lets me turn magically weightless, you would tell me to prove it. Isn't that right?

Logic tells you that if I did indeed have such a device and it actually worked, I would have tried to sell it. Such a thing would be incredibly valuable.

Apply the same logic to a "cancer cure" that some guy in Seattle has.

If such a cure actually worked--as in, after doing double-blind clinical trials, the cure produced statistically significant results--it would be worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Maybe trillions. The guy who proved that he had a cure for cancer could buy himself a small country.

Why doesn't your Seattle friend do so?

The logical answer is, his "cure" doesn't work. This is doubly true since he doesn't claim to have invented it; he claims that Chinese medicine has known about it for hundreds of years.

Hen Sen could not help everyone, he told me that no matter how good the doctor is, or how good the medicine, if the patient doesn't stop doing whats hurting themselves they won't be cured. He told me if I hit myself with a hammer and get it treated by him, to not hit myself with a hammer anymore. A lot of people don't want to stop hurting themselves, which was by diet, poor health habits ect.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 11:08
Hen Sen could not help everyone, he told me that no matter how good the doctor is, or how good the medicine, if the patient doesn't stop doing whats hurting themselves they won't be cured. He told me if I hit myself with a hammer and get it treated by him, to not hit myself with a hammer anymore. A lot of people don't want to stop hurting themselves, which was by diet, poor health habits ect.

So we went from

a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for

I saw people in total despair because their Doctors told them they could not cure them, come to see Hen Sen and he cured their disease.

to

Hen Sen passed away many years ago, but he never retired, he treated many people right to the end. Rabbi I don't know who the Doctor's were his assistant told me this.

to

Hen Sen could not help everyone

in less than a page.

That's some pretty quick backtracking.

nmk
11-29-2012, 11:09
You're missing the point here . I told them what was happening , my symptoms. They told me it was the DT's from alcohol with-drawl. I don,t drink and never have have. I passed out out one of many times and the last time , I fell on my running table saw and lost part of my left hand.
The so called "DOCTOR" said there was nothing wrong and sent me on my way !
A week later , I fell into a coma , heart rate 20. Fair you say ?
No test , no MRI , just nothing wrong DT's........? Fair comparison ? You tell me how fair it was not to take the time to look at anything nor listen to me.

You're right. I have no idea what you're talking about, but it certainly isn't the point.

jollygreen
11-29-2012, 11:10
I think doctors should not be paid until they cure you, no cure no pay.

It doesn't work like that. The doctor diagnoses the patient's condition based upon certain symptoms. The doctor then proceeds to treat the patient's symptoms.

You're buying the doctor's time and expertise as a practicing physician. That's what you pay for. Sometimes the outcome is favorable. Sometimes it is not. But you paid for his time, not a cure.

Let's say somebody participates in a perverted lifestyle and contracts AIDS. He comes to the doctor with certain symptoms and after tests, the patient is determined to have AIDS. Nothing the doctor can do to cure the person, other than prescribe some medicines, and he certainly can't cure the patient since there is no cure for AIDS.

The doctor deserves to be paid since he spent time diagnosing the symptoms. That's what the patient is actually paying for.

It's not completely unlike an attorney. Abraham Lincoln said, "A lawyer's time and advice are his stock in trade."

Now, in the OP's case, the doctor was clearly negligent and incompetent. Because of his negligence and incompetence the OP suffered greatly. The OP deserves to be compensated for that and the doctor deserves to pay.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 11:11
They told me it was the DT's from alcohol with-drawl. I don,t drink and never have have.

How many people with your symptoms do you think they see?

Of those people, how many do you think are alcoholics who swear up and down they "don't drink and never have"?

glockdoc21
11-29-2012, 11:16
to Rabbi and devildog, a sincere thank you (DanaT has made some good arguments about medical care too in the past) ...to a few others...just wow. People who manufacture goods can sell you a warranty, because they give you something tangible. I love my job, but it does take a modicum of experience to try to figure out what's wrong w/ grandma (that is demented of course) when the "family" brings her on Thanksgiving because "she doesn't look right". Granted, grandma always looks this way, but they haven't seen her in a year. If she dies of ANYTHING in the next few days after I see her, am I responsible because I didn't diagnose her malady? I'd happily give people a warranty if medical care could go like this 1. Give me a complaint...not "I feel bad", but a real complaint, like "I have a knife in my skull". 2. agree to pay UP FRONT any and all costs associated with your diagnosis 3. agree that if you don't follow my discharge instructions EXACTLY that I'm not held liable. This is never going to happen of course, and you'll never get a warranty for medical services.

janice6
11-29-2012, 11:16
When they call it "Curing" there will be warranties. Until then, it is called "Practice".

GRD67
11-29-2012, 11:17
OK, then let's start with an easy one: define "cured their disease."

OK, there was this one woman who started seeing Hen Sen the same time I did, in 1977, the doctors discovered that she had cancer in her breast, lungs, and her brains. That's when they told her that they could not help her. That's when she started seeing Hen Sen, after taking herbs, not sure how long. She went to see her doctor that told her she no longer had caner, she was totally clear. Would you call that cured, I would. She had to change her diet or the herbs would not work, so the doctor and she cured her disease.

JMS
11-29-2012, 11:17
Hen Sen passed away many years ago, but he never retired, he treated many people right to the end. Rabbi I don't know who the Doctor's were his assistant told me this.

I think some of the other posters took you seriously, I knew you were just kidding the whole time. :rofl:

Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 11:18
Now, in the OP's case, the doctor was clearly negligent and incompetent. Because of his negligence and incompetence the OP suffered greatly. The OP deserves to be compensated for that and the doctor deserves to pay.

I'm not looking for compensation. I don't have the mindset to sue someone for this; I am merely curious about the issue of who should have paid for everything after the first mistake.

I'm covered by insurance I received from a voluntary reduction at a large pharmaceutical company. The company is self insured, the program is managed by one of the insurance giants, and I'm thinking that every dollar paid out has an impact on all the folks still working at the company and those of us who took the "buyout". Our rates keep going up, so I think any payout, such as in my case, that could be avoided would help to keep those rates down and not take money out of my pocket nor my friends/ex-colleague's pockets.

Batesmotel
11-29-2012, 11:19
Maybe doctors should prorate their services.

An adjustable scale depending on the health of the customer.

One fee for a customer with perfect health.

Another fee for anyone who has ever smoked, drank, gained weight, spent time in the sun, had sex......

After all I charge different prices depending on the difficulty of the job I am doing.



The human body is not a Ford. A repair job doesn't came with a warranty.

Maybe it would make sense to just sue God for giving you a defective body.

JMS
11-29-2012, 11:21
Here's my warranty, if he/she is negligent I sue.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 11:21
I would hate to be a doctor dealing with cancer then.

I would hate to be dealing with a doctor who couldn't cure my cancer.

jame
11-29-2012, 11:21
I'll offer what little I understand at this point. I'm currently employed by a very small local medical center.

The health care law, (for good or bad is another discussion, to be sure) is in the process of shifting the current health care system from:

Fee for service (5 sutures for a nasty cut-that'll be $500 please)

to

Fee for performance (5 sutures for a nasty cut-$500 please, BUT if the sutures don't heal properly, they redo, gratis)

At least that's the way I understand it. It's supposed to be a process to force hospitals and clinics to be at a more competitive level, like most other business models. If they perform correctly, they'll rise to the top and succeed.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 11:22
OK, there was this one woman who started seeing Hen Sen the same time I did, in 1977, the doctors discovered that she had cancer in her breast, lungs, and her brains. That's when they told her that they could not help her. That's when she started seeing Hen Sen, after taking herbs, not sure how long. She went to see her doctor that told her she no longer had caner, she was totally clear. Would you call that cured, I would. She had to change her diet or the herbs would not work, so the doctor and she cured her disease.

I had bad strep back in 2010, I got my PhD in 2012. I no longer have strep. Therefore, PhDs cure strep.

A single data point is not proof. The fact that this woman didn't have cancer any longer is not proof. The fact that you don't understand how proof or science works doesn't change that fact. A "cure" has a statistically significant impact on a large group of randomly selected people. Anything less is only proof of your confirmation bias.

My dad has terminal cancer in his lungs and brain. He's dying. If I thought for half a second that there was any shred of credibility in what you are saying, I would be on a plane to Seattle right this second trying to track down this guy's former assistants.

But I know that there isn't.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 11:23
I would hate to be dealing with a doctor who couldn't cure my cancer.

You're just adorable.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 11:24
I would hate to be dealing with a doctor who couldn't cure my cancer.

Yes, the 25,000 or so oncologists in the world are all such bumbling fools. Too bad we can't all be cured by mythical Chinese herbal doctors.

The sad thing is that people with your level of reasoning skills are still allowed to vote.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 11:24
OK, there was this one woman who started seeing Hen Sen the same time I did, in 1977, the doctors discovered that she had cancer in her breast, lungs, and her brains. That's when they told her that they could not help her. That's when she started seeing Hen Sen, after taking herbs, not sure how long. She went to see her doctor that told her she no longer had caner, she was totally clear. Would you call that cured, I would. She had to change her diet or the herbs would not work, so the doctor and she cured her disease.

Why wont you help me? Why wont you answer my questions? Are you going to let my loved one die?

Here is the deal. Right now, I can make an offer to you. I can make you a millionaire and give you the chance to help MILLIONS of people.

According to you, You know a guy who could cure all kinds of things. Somewhere there are Medical Doctors who went to him and somewhere is a person who knows these doctors.

For some reason, these Medical Doctors are obviously horrible people. They know these things and yet dont use it to help the entire world. My wife and I dont feel that way. Help us get in touch with these people. My wife and I will take the knowledge to not only save my loved one but MILLIONS of people.

You can help all those people. Will you do it?

Bren
11-29-2012, 11:25
A lot of things have a warranty or a money back guarantee; why not one for doctor's services?

Are you udner the impression there is not? It's called medical malpractice - he even has insurance to pay it.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 11:33
Why do people in China still die of cancer then?

Well for one a lot of people got in line to buy the bridge, Hen Sen told me that western medicine came to China people started going to it, he told me that don't translate the old medical books, anymore. And like the rest of us if we don't stop doing what is hurting us we won't recover. I'm not saying all herb doctors can help people, I'm saying Hen Sen was able to.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 11:36
No doubt. And if you had been here in Tulsa Oral Roberts would have healed you for free.


http://williamsofmiceandmen.wikispaces.com/file/view/Skeptical-Cat.jpeg/254433540/Skeptical-Cat.jpeg

I hear Oral Roberts taught his dog how to heal.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 11:37
Well for one a lot of people got in line to buy the bridge, Hen Sen told me that western medicine came to China people started going to it, he told me that don't translate the old medical books, anymore.
Have you ever been to China? I have.

Your (secondhand from a dead guy) statement is patently false. Traditional medicine is still huge there.

(And why would they have to "translate" the old medical books if they're in Chinese?)

Psychman
11-29-2012, 11:39
Why wont you help me? Why wont you answer my questions? Are you going to let my loved one die?

Here is the deal. Right now, I can make an offer to you. I can make you a millionaire and give you the chance to help MILLIONS of people.

According to you, You know a guy who could cure all kinds of things. Somewhere there are Medical Doctors who went to him and somewhere is a person who knows these doctors.

For some reason, these Medical Doctors are obviously horrible people. They know these things and yet dont use it to help the entire world. My wife and I dont feel that way. Help us get in touch with these people. My wife and I will take the knowledge to not only save my loved one but MILLIONS of people.

You can help all those people. Will you do it?

I am not sure he can tell that you are being glib and sarcastic, but I am enjoying your banter with this obviously deluded individual. Please continue.

Apparently his healer was unable to cure psychiatric issues.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 11:48
Ah, I see, you are passing on second hand information about a dead guy from third parties.

Can I contact this assistant. This person seemed to not have a problem telling people this information. It couldnt be a secret, or you wouldnt tell us, you wouldnt violate someones trust like that would you?

If I can get in touch with this assistant, I can find who these medical doctors are and my wife, again a medical doctor, can talk to them and I can save the life of my loved one.

Will you help me? Please dont let my loved one die. You have the information I need to save her life.

Rabbi I can do better than that, his daughter was learning from him, I don't know how good she is but she can probably answer some of your question if you really need help. Do you really need help or would your wife try to destroy something that is not teaching what she practices? I'm not advertising anything here or sell anybody anything, just sharing what I experienced, no third party hearsay.

http://www.hensenherbs.com/

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:01
Rabbi I can do better than that, his daughter was learning from him, I don't know how good she is but she can probably answer some of your question if you really need help. Do you really need help or would your wife try to destroy something that is not teaching what she practices? I'm not advertising anything here or sell anybody anything, just sharing what I experienced, no third party hearsay.

http://www.hensenherbs.com/

I would not destroy anything that can help people but I am going to call and report back.

I want the names of medical doctors who are references.

We are going to change the world! Or know what a deluded twit you are and how you have lied to us with your second hand info.

See, you are not the holder of some info that most everyone else has missed. You are responsible for the death of many people. Thats right, you....and your advocation of this crap cause people to die. Dont believe me, as Steve Jobs.

You are so commited to this crap, and I am sure you will continue to be, that it doesnt bother you, or worse, you cant understand how it is even possible that you are responsible for peoples deaths.

Yes, you are a link in the chain that causes people to die. Your advocacy causes people to DIE!

I am not kidding. My words are not joking. You are a bad person spreading lies that causes great harm.

dango
11-29-2012, 12:03
No, I'm pretty sure it's you.

Did you have to go to school for 12 years to be allowed to make furniture?

Does the government tell you what you can bill for your services?

Does your furniture actively try to sabotage your efforts while you're building it?

Does your furniture lie to you about whether it's been taking its meds?

Trying to say you're "held to a higher standard" is simply ludicrous. You cannot compare the two.
How about a simple X-Ray.How about just listening before he made the assumtion alcohol. How about not stereotyping because I had a pony tail. You are the one that's jaded to put your faith , your life in the hands of incompetence.
Funny thing here is if I did not persue this on my own , I wouldn't be here now or paralized !
I got lucky and found the right doctor, No. 6 to be exact and I'm Ok now. Emergency surgery , now I'm ok . And yes , my standards were higher than that quak........! :tongueout:

GRD67
11-29-2012, 12:03
Have you ever been to China? I have.

Your (secondhand from a dead guy) statement is patently false. Traditional medicine is still huge there.

(And why would they have to "translate" the old medical books if they're in Chinese?)

Have you ever seen Hen Sen Chin, my wife is Chinese, from Taiwan, have you ever tried reading the old Chinese medical books, my wife was born and raise in Taiwan and she couldn't read them, She came here to the states to get her master degree in finance so she's no dummy. I know Chinese medicine is still being used over I didn't say that. I know that he is dead but his daughter still lives, doing what her father taught her.

JMS
11-29-2012, 12:04
Well for one a lot of people got in line to buy the bridge, Hen Sen told me that western medicine came to China people started going to it, he told me that don't translate the old medical books, anymore. And like the rest of us if we don't stop doing what is hurting us we won't recover. I'm not saying all herb doctors can help people, I'm saying Hen Sen was able to.

If he was so good, why's he dead? :dunno:

GRD67
11-29-2012, 12:08
If he was so good, why's he dead? :dunno:

You should be able to answer that question.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 12:11
I would not destroy anything that can help people but I am going to call and report back.

I want the names of medical doctors who are references.

We are going to change the world! Or know what a deluded twit you are and how you have lied to us with your second hand info.

See, you are not the holder of some info that most everyone else has missed. You are responsible for the death of many people. Thats right, you....and your advocation of this crap cause people to die. Dont believe me, as Steve Jobs.

You are so commited to this crap, and I am sure you will continue to be, that it doesnt bother you, or worse, you cant understand how it is even possible that you are responsible for peoples deaths.

Yes, you are a link in the chain that causes people to die. Your advocacy causes people to DIE!

I am not kidding. My words are not joking. You are a bad person spreading lies that causes great harm.

Those are pretty harsh words there Rabbi, do you always shoot before you aim, do you know the difference between a wise man, a fool, and an evil man.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:15
Those are pretty harsh words there Rabbi, do you always shoot before you aim, do you know the difference between a wise man, a fool, and an evil man.

Yes, you are not wise, you are a fool who propagates evil.

CAcop
11-29-2012, 12:17
The warrantee on repairs to your body is called malpractice lawsuit. Even if your insurance pays for all of your bills they might go after a quack.

The way I look at doctors there is a lot more "art" to their science than meets the eye. Smart docs realize this. Smart patients do too.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 12:18
Those are pretty harsh words there Rabbi, do you always shoot before you aim, do you know the difference between a wise man, a fool, and an evil man.

He has to be harsh. You are doleing out advise that is very potentially harmful, based on nothing but half truths and (for lack of a better word) hocus pocus. Rabbi has proven to be one of the wisest of people on this board, and many people trust his opinions and his advise.

JMS
11-29-2012, 12:18
You should be able to answer that question.

I heard he jumped off a cliff with thousands of his patients following him blindly.....

Detectorist
11-29-2012, 12:34
He has to be harsh. You are doleing out advise that is very potentially harmful, based on nothing but half truths and (for lack of a better word) hocus pocus. Rabbi has proven to be one of the wisest of people on this board, and many people trust his opinions and his advise.

What advice has he doled out? Why is he harming people? I don't understand. I see no harm in trying to get advice from a traditional Chinese herbalist after exhausting traditional medical treatment options.

Heck, a lot of us take a multivitamin daily. However, some recent studies discount their effectiveness. I still take mine.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 12:37
What advice has he doled out? Why is he harming people? I don't understand. I see no harm in trying to get advice from a traditional Chinese herbalist after exhausting traditional medical treatment options.

Heck, a lot of us take a multivitamin daily. However, some recent studies discount their effectiveness. I still take mine.

Going to someone who is not an accedited medical professional for medical advice and treatment is dangerous, and he is advocating just that.

Detectorist
11-29-2012, 12:40
Going to someone who is not an accedited medical professional for medical advice and treatment is dangerous, and he is advocating just that.

Have you ever read any articles on health or fitness which were not written by a Dr.? I have. Stuff like eat less red meat, more veggies, etc. Or even advice on supplements. We all have gotten medical advice from sources that are not Doctors.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:40
What advice has he doled out? Why is he harming people? I don't understand. I see no harm in trying to get advice from a traditional Chinese herbalist after exhausting traditional medical treatment options.

Heck, a lot of us take a multivitamin daily. However, some recent studies discount their effectiveness. I still take mine.

Really?

He is advocating for the use of it by claiming the man can cure all kinds of things and using testimonials to prove that point.

....then when called out on it, the guy is dead, and he was *told* about the sources of the testimonials from a second hand source....

That is what we call a lie. He made it out to be something it isnt. His story is falling appart.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 12:44
Have you ever read any articles on health or fitness which were not written by a Dr.? I have. Stuff like eat less red meat, more veggies, etc. Or even advice on supplements. We all have gotten medical advice from sources that are not Doctors.

That is basic nutrition and fitness, not medical advice or treatment.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:44
Have you ever read any articles on health or fitness which were not written by a Dr.? I have. Stuff like eat less red meat, more veggies, etc. Or even advice on supplements. We all have gotten medical advice from sources that are not Doctors.

Of course such things can be valid....but you are missing what happened.

He claims to know a guy who can cure many things and then built that up with "even medical doctors use him..."

That story is falling apart. There are many holistic and natural type cures that are varioius level of valid. My wife is an MD and takes a multi every other day. We are not here to debate the particular legitimacy of such things, we are calling out a guy who is advocating for very grand claims with a story that doesnt hold up. Dont confuse the issues.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 12:48
Yes, you are not wise, you are a fool who propagates evil.

If I'm as evil as you say I am Rabbi how can I believe Jesus is the Christ and that he died for our sins without having the Holy Spirit in me. I would never do anything to hurt anyone my yes's are yes and my no's are no. I'm am just saying this stuff for people who are dying from diseases and their doctors can't help them. If your friend is dying and the doctor can't help them, maybe someone else could, I sure would be searching. In fact that's what happened to me, I just got lucky and found Hen Sen Chin, thanks be to God.

Detectorist
11-29-2012, 12:48
Of course such things can be valid....but you are missing what happened.

He claims to know a guy who can cure many things and then built that up with "even medical doctors use him..."

That story is falling apart. There are many holistic and natural type cures that are varioius level of valid. My wife is an MD and takes a multi every other day. We are not here to debate the particular legitimacy of such things, we are calling out a guy who is advocating for very grand claims with a story that doesnt hold up. Dont confuse the issues.

I don't believe he is a liar. I believe that he believes.

Lone_Wolfe
11-29-2012, 12:48
Then I guess oncologists should work for free then. Or what about all the other afflictions that can't be cured yet.

I would hate to be a doctor dealing with cancer then.

My thoughts exactly. I'd be screwed, no doctor would have been willing to treat my cancer.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 12:49
I don't believe he is a liar. I believe that he believes.

He believes in ignorance. That's the worst kind of belief. He "believes" in a "cure" without even a basic understanding of what a "cure" is.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:52
I don't believe he is a liar. I believe that he believes.

I believe he believes it as well...but he was dishonest about his information.

Just because he believes what someone tells him doenst mean he gets to lie about it to puff it up.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 12:56
If I'm as evil as you say I am Rabbi how can I believe Jesus is the Christ and that he died for our sins without having the Holy Spirit in me. I would never do anything to hurt anyone my yes's are yes and my no's are no. I'm am just saying this stuff for people who are dying from diseases and their doctors can't help them. If your friend is dying and the doctor can't help them, maybe someone else could, I sure would be searching. In fact that's what happened to me, I just got lucky and found Hen Sen Chin, thanks God.

Listen to me real close....your emotional responses to facts will not sway me...or people who deal in facts and not how YOU feel.

I dont care who you are or what you claim to believe. You were dishonest, and that tells me more than the words you say to the contrary.

If you want to be seen as a good person, start doing the right thing. I dont care if you believe in this stuff, you became and instrument for harm the second you started to lie about it.

YOU can not prove to me that Medical Doctors use this guy. YOU can not prove to me that he can cure all these things. You can only believe it and that is ok, but that is not what you did, YOU claimed it was true and then asserting things you can not prove. You were dishonest. You are an agent of harm. Your beliefs made you do a bad thing.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 13:01
Going to someone who is not an accedited medical professional for medical advice and treatment is dangerous, and he is advocating just that.

No I'm not, I'm saying that anyone who says they can't cure your disease, that's there might be an alternative out there. What I will say for sure if you are dying, ask Jesus for help and to forgive you your sins, that what I did, and he helped me.

Psychman
11-29-2012, 13:03
No I'm not, I'm saying that anyone who says they can't cure your disease, that's there might be an alternative out there. What I will say for sure if you are dying, ask Jesus for help and to forgive you your sins, that what I did, and he helped me.


So Jesus cured you and not hen chin woo woo?

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 13:05
No I'm not, I'm saying that anyone who says they can't cure your disease, that's there might be an alternative out there. What I will say for sure if you are dying, ask Jesus for help and to forgive you your sins, that what I did, and he helped me.

So, when someone tells the same story but invoked another deity, who is telling the truth?

Pretty much every faith has plenty of the exact same stories. "I asked for help from.... and it worked...."

Are the all lying but you? What about people who get ill and curse a deity, perhaps even yours and get better? What about all the people who die, where was their deity?

If you are going to offer answers, you are going to have to answer question.

Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 13:05
You guys have gone so far off track with this discussion that it is ridiculous. Open another thread about herbal healing or witch doctors; I don't care. I just wondered what people thought about payment responsibilities for patients, doctors, and hospitals when the doctor makes a mistake.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 13:06
So Jesus cured you and not hen chin woo woo?

Not only that but I bet Chinese herb slinger didnt believe in Jesus.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 13:07
Listen to me real close....your emotional responses to facts will not sway me...or people who deal in facts and not how YOU feel.

I dont care who you are or what you claim to believe. You were dishonest, and that tells me more than the words you say to the contrary.

If you want to be seen as a good person, start doing the right thing. I dont care if you believe in this stuff, you became and instrument for harm the second you started to lie about it.

YOU can not prove to me that Medical Doctors use this guy. YOU can not prove to me that he can cure all these things. You can only believe it and that is ok, but that is not what you did, YOU claimed it was true and then asserting things you can not prove. You were dishonest. You are an agent of harm. Your beliefs made you do a bad thing.

So Rabbi you haven't contact Julie yet at Hen Sen Herbs, have you. I thought you were and then were going to report back to us. I'm waiting. I have to go to town to run some errands, I'll look for your report when I get back. Julie should be in today.

Detectorist
11-29-2012, 13:08
You guys have gone so far off track with this discussion that it is ridiculous. Open another thread about herbal healing or witch doctors; I don't care. I just wondered what people thought about payment responsibilities for patients, doctors, and hospitals when the doctor makes a mistake.

I'm amazed at the stories on here about how screwed up the medical treatment was, but nothing about complaining to the state board or law suits. What's up with that?

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 13:09
So Rabbi you haven't contact Julie yet at Hen Sen Herbs, have you. I thought you were and then were going to report back to us. I'm waiting

I actually will have my wife do it. They can talk shop....but right now my wife is a little busy charging insane amounts to do what few can and help people with some of the most dire medical conditions there are.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 13:09
So Rabbi you haven't contact Julie yet at Hen Sen Herbs, have you. I thought you were and then were going to report back to us. I'm waiting

How have you managed to hide this level of crazy from Glocktalk for ten years?

Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 13:14
I'm amazed at the stories on here about how screwed up the medical treatment was, but nothing about complaining to the state board or law suits. What's up with that?

Detectorist, while I was rehabbing, I had quite a few friends stop over and several are lawyers. Two of them said they would take on the case if I wanted, but I told them I was happy to be alive. One of them told me that it is tough to bring suit against cardiologists because you have to have bring in a witness who is a cardiologist and willing to say that the defendant screwed up in a way that was abnormal. Evidently my formerly one piece, then two piece artery wasn't abnormal or beyond the realm of possibility.

Like I said, I've become friends with the cardiologist and feel strongly that what happened was a rare occurrence for him. Beyond that, the state board would have received a report on the results, so I felt no need to contact them.

jtmac
11-29-2012, 13:15
Back when this was a few posts long I started to compose a post that would be moderately insightful and illuminate the issue for those who didn't have the experience to judge by.

But then I looked back and all this happened. This is me slowly backing out the door...

Psychman
11-29-2012, 13:15
How have you managed to hide this level of crazy from Glocktalk for ten years?


LOL. I just saw he joined in 2001. Wow. He must have been saving up for just this moment.

nmk
11-29-2012, 13:16
How have you managed to hide this level of crazy from Glocktalk for ten years?

:rofl:

GRD67
11-29-2012, 13:19
Not only that but I bet Chinese herb slinger didnt believe in Jesus.

I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't believe Jesus is the Christ, but that won't stop me from seeing them. How about you Rabbi do you believe Jesus is the Christ.

For those who might be interested in learning a little about Chinese herbs, there's a good book by Tom Bisio titled A tooth from a tiger's mouth.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 13:24
I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't believe Jesus is the Christ, but that won't stop me from seeing them. How about you Rabbi do you believe Jesus is the Christ.

For those who might be interested in learning a little about Chinese herbs, there's a good book by Tom Bisio titled A tooth from a tiger's mouth.

I am really confused as to how religion found its way into this already off track conversation.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 13:25
I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't believe Jesus is the Christ, but that won't stop me from seeing them. How about you Rabbi do you believe Jesus is the Christ.

For those who might be interested in learning a little about Chinese herbs, there's a good book by Tom Bisio titled A tooth from a tiger's mouth.

Did you perform your Daf Yomi today with the Babylonian Talmud. Did you bow to Mecca 5 times yesterday? How is your middle path doing?

I dont have a problem with Christianity, but since YOU keep bringing up religion, I have to tell you, it sure has not kept you from being dishonest.

Psychman
11-29-2012, 13:26
I am really confused as to how religion found its way into this already off track conversation.

Because he now thinks JC cured him and not ho che min.

GRD67
11-29-2012, 13:30
How have you managed to hide this level of crazy from Glocktalk for ten years?

I've been working and raising three boys, I didn't have the time, now that I've been laid off, I have the time.

JMS
11-29-2012, 13:31
How have you managed to hide this level of crazy from Glocktalk for ten years?

Seriously, there's a few but this guy is a whopper.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 13:31
Because he now thinks JC cured him and not ho che min.

Ah, he played the "Jesus loves me more than you" card because the "Ancient Chinese secret" card didn't work.

JMS
11-29-2012, 13:32
How about you Rabbi do you believe Jesus is the Christ.

I'm not a betting man but ...........

By the way do you talk about others the same way, "Did you call Robert is the Smith?" vs. "Did you call Robert Smith?"

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 13:32
I am really confused as to how religion found its way into this already off track conversation.

Same was as everything else, the crazy guy started talking about it.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 13:36
Same was as everything else, the crazy guy started talking about it.

:rofl:

Sometimes simple and blunt sums it up very well.

Glock&KimberLady
11-29-2012, 14:39
GRD, as a Christian, I am begging you to shut your damn fool mouth.

As far as the OP, I'd hoped this would stay on track. I've run into a few cowboys docs and surgeons who blithely and arrogantly told me all would be fine and good, with adverse results. However, nowhere near as serious as yours.

I wonder where the line is drawn between an honest error/mistake and misplaced excessive confidence. In your case, sounds like an honest mistake (albeit a tricksy nasty slip of the hand) versus docs who are blinded by their own hubris.

And before Rabbi lands on me with righteous, I unerstand and accept there are dink doctors just like there are dink people...although I may have drawn more than my share of the former.

Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 14:43
Maybe if the doctor had used the math that Rabbi so passionately espouses for guiding his instruments, I wouldn't have had anything to post.

GKL, sorry you had adverse results; hope all worked out for you.

Gregg702
11-29-2012, 14:46
Someone had the be the doctor that graduated at the bottom of their class.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 14:50
Maybe if the doctor had used the math that Rabbi so passionately espouses for guiding his instruments, I wouldn't have had anything to post.

GKL, sorry you had adverse results; hope all worked out for you.

Math can, in many cases, predict results with shocking accuracy, sometimes with perfect accuracy. What it often cant do is predict the results of any particular occurrence.

This is awesome if you own a casino. You know exactly how many over what time and you will make X. What you dont know is which ones you will win or lose on.

Same thing with medicine. We can predict, with amazing accuracy the outcomes of various things. What we cant do so well is predict *your* outcome. I.E. we know to a very finite point what the 10 year survival rate of lung cancer is, what we cant predict so well is what *YOUR* 10 year survival rate for lung cancer will be.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 14:55
Someone had the be the doctor that graduated at the bottom of their class.

That is very true...but such people dont often end up specialist Surgeons or Cardiologists (or any other number of specialties that are more competitive)...and if they do, while it is a great soundbite, it is really applicable.

Medical School gives someone the letters after their name. residency makes someone a "doctor." You could be the last guy in medical school and become a brilliant surgeon in residency.

Lonestar 48
11-29-2012, 14:55
Math can, in many cases, predict results with shocking accuracy, sometimes with perfect accuracy. What it often cant do is predict the results of any particular occurrence.

This is awesome if you own a casino. You know exactly how many over what time and you will make X. What you dont know is which ones you will win or lose on.

Same thing with medicine. We can predict, with amazing accuracy the outcomes of various things. What we cant do so well is predict *your* outcome. I.E. we know to a very finite point what the 10 year survival rate of lung cancer is, what we cant predict so well is what *YOUR* 10 year survival rate for lung cancer will be.

I meant more that the doctor use your mathematic precision to guide his instruments. According to him, this was a 1 time occurrence in around 8,000 procedures. So I guess his outcome for adverse events like mine would be 1 in around 8,000? At least so far.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 15:12
I meant more that the doctor use your mathematic precision to guide his instruments. According to him, this was a 1 time occurrence in around 8,000 procedures. So I guess his outcome for adverse events like mine would be 1 in around 8,000? At least so far.

That sounds like reasonable precision. Of course if you are the 1 in 8000, it is a turd sammich.

Again, that is what math can do. We can predict 7999 will be fine and 1 guy, not so good. What we dont know is who the one guy is.

Pwhfirefighter
11-29-2012, 15:27
My dad has terminal cancer in his lungs and brain. He's dying. If I thought for half a second that there was any shred of credibility in what you are saying, I would be on a plane to Seattle right this second trying to track down this guy's former assistants.

But I know that there isn't.

I am sorry you are having to go through this and see your father go through what he does. And Rabbi with his loved one. I lost my dad 2 months ago to terminal cancer and I know exactly what you are dealing with. No word can describe the torment of watching your loved one die from terminal cancer. I can say I have no regrets and my dad knew I loved him and we were at peace and were able to enjoy some good quality time in his last months. Again you both have my sympathy for what you are going through

JMS
11-29-2012, 15:39
I meant more that the doctor use your mathematic precision to guide his instruments. According to him, this was a 1 time occurrence in around 8,000 procedures. So I guess his outcome for adverse events like mine would be 1 in around 8,000? At least so far.

It's true it is all about math. For example, 99% of Rabbi's posts mention math, while 95% of them mention math and talk down to the other forum members. :rofl:

Spiffums
11-29-2012, 15:55
They call it a practice for a reason.........

Detectorist
11-29-2012, 16:01
It's true it is all about math. For example, 99% of Rabbi's posts mention math, while 95% of them mention math and talk down to the other forum members. :rofl:

:rofl:

However, medicine is really an art. When one finds a Dr who listens and knows his limitations, he's a keeper. Patients also need to learn how to verbalize their issues better. Docs aren't perfect.

NeverMore1701
11-29-2012, 16:11
ITT: People who haven't the slightest clue about medicine, the human body, or much anything else.

lunarspeak
11-29-2012, 17:11
what people really need to realize is that there is no gaurantee that even the best docter or hospital can save you..if you knew in advance that you were going to have a stroke and the docter was hovering over you with paddles and was just waiting for it to take place..(im sure it would improve your odds) still no guarantee.

and medicine is pricey enough ..if they had to cover a warranty im sure it would sky rocket

singularity35
11-29-2012, 17:49
If he was so good, why's he dead? :dunno:

Yeh, he musta died early from his lifestyle. :rofl:

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2003500101_chinobit29m.html

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 17:52
if you knew in advance that you were going to have a stroke and the docter was hovering over you with paddles and was just waiting for it to take place..(im sure it would improve your odds)

Not really... a stroke is an internal bleed, and paddles are for restarting stopped hearts... but I understand what you meant :wavey:

singularity35
11-29-2012, 17:59
That sounds like reasonable precision. Of course if you are the 1 in 8000, it is a turd sammich.

Again, that is what math can do. We can predict 7999 will be fine and 1 guy, not so good. What we dont know is who the one guy is.

Can't we just count his procedures to 7999 and if you're next, give way to next guy on the waiting list? :wavey:

podwich
11-29-2012, 18:03
A lot of things have a warranty or a money back guarantee; why not one for doctor's services?

A couple of years ago, I had a heart attack while I was working out. The doctor put a stent in my heart. The next weekend, I was working out again, with the doctor's blessing, and I had another heart attack. Turns out the stent was messed up. A different doc went in to fix that one. The original doc saw what the second doc did and wanted to fix his mistakes. He accidentally severed an artery which led to open heart surgery and a bypass. The bypass failed which led to another heart attack, which led to some more work.

It all ended up costing a lot of money, which between me and the insurance company was all paid. Friends wanted me to sue but I am of the nature that folks make mistakes. Lately though, I have been thinking that between the docs and the hospital, I, and my insurance company shouldn't have had to pay for their services after the first stent. Like it should have been on them to pay for their mistakes.

Anyone else feel this way or have a similar experience?

If you can guarantee your body and how it will respond and that you will follow directions exactly as given and you won't get sick and you won't get into an accident and...

Yeah, a warranty for medical stuff is ridiculous.

Now if truly negligent stuff was done, yeah, I would agree with not wanting to pay for that (now that's already done sometimes and, in many cases, insurance won't pay for stuff that wasn't negligent [illness that occurred while in the hospital, some unfortunate outcomes/postop complications, etc]).

Glocksanity
11-29-2012, 18:05
I think you should learn what doctors do.

Most doctors diagnose and treat. Few cure.

Exactly. Doctors give drugs or do surgery. They don't cure. They don't heal. Only the body can heal itself. So, the question is, how does the body heal itself? To find that out, you need to look at how the body creates the sickness that needs to be cured.

Take diabetes. And here, I am talking about adult onset, not juvenile. Adult onset diabetes is basically someone eating bad, sugary, toxic food and not getting enough exercise. They are basically creating the disease. So, they go to a doctor and get their limbs chopped off if need be, or they get medicine to deal with their insulin issues.

However, they could cure themselves with diet and exercise as that is how they created the disease in the first place. Same with a lot of heart disease. It is created by lifestyle and drugs and surgery won't cure a thing.

So, when you get diabetes or cancer (most of them anyways, unless you live in Fukashima or Chernobyl) or heart disease, I say CONGRATULATIONS! You have earned it!!

If you put toxic food and drinks into your body, you get diseases. Simple as that.

Now understand, I am not talking about all diseases, but most are basically created by diet and lifestyle.

Keoking
11-29-2012, 18:06
Why do people in China still die of cancer then?

Because Hen Sen Chin is in Seattle. Duh.

singularity35
11-29-2012, 18:07
Because Hen Sen Chin is in Seattle. Duh.

For the win!!! :rofl:

Glocksanity
11-29-2012, 18:14
You guys have gone so far off track with this discussion that it is ridiculous. Open another thread about herbal healing or witch doctors; I don't care. I just wondered what people thought about payment responsibilities for patients, doctors, and hospitals when the doctor makes a mistake.

If the doctor was negligent, then sue.

Other than that, things happen. Things go wrong. Every watch a NASCAR race? Even the best teams make mistakes and parts break with no explanation.

Doctors are mechanics for human bodies. Try and make sure you never have to see one.

Rabbi
11-29-2012, 19:06
Exactly. Doctors give drugs or do surgery. They don't cure. They don't heal.


I dont think you understand the function of surgery. Surgery is often a cure. It is most often an absolute act.

devildog2067
11-29-2012, 19:08
So, when you get diabetes or cancer (most of them anyways, unless you live in Fukashima or Chernobyl) or heart disease, I say CONGRATULATIONS! You have earned it!!

You definitely should go to your local cancer ward and say that to everyone you find.

Actually, my dad's got lung cancer and brain cancer. He quit smoking 40 years ago. You should come say it to him. Tell him he "earned" it.

NeverMore1701
11-29-2012, 19:38
Just wow.

The Oracle
11-30-2012, 00:31
Math can, in many cases, predict results with shocking accuracy, sometimes with perfect accuracy. What it often cant do is predict the results of any particular occurrence.

This is awesome if you own a casino. You know exactly how many over what time and you will make X. What you dont know is which ones you will win or lose on.

Same thing with medicine. We can predict, with amazing accuracy the outcomes of various things. What we cant do so well is predict *your* outcome. I.E. we know to a very finite point what the 10 year survival rate of lung cancer is, what we cant predict so well is what *YOUR* 10 year survival rate for lung cancer will be.



I am reminded of an essay on point,


http://people.umass.edu/biep540w/pdf/Stephen%20Jay%20Gould.pdf





.

Lone_Wolfe
11-30-2012, 00:43
You definitely should go to your local cancer ward and say that to everyone you find.

Actually, my dad's got lung cancer and brain cancer. He quit smoking 40 years ago. You should come say it to him. Tell him he "earned" it.

Sounds like he thinks I earned my breast cancer just because I have ****. :upeyes:

NeverMore1701
11-30-2012, 01:25
Sounds like he thinks I earned my breast cancer just because I have ****. :upeyes:

Welcome to GT :rofl:

muscogee
11-30-2012, 05:09
If you genuinely feel that this is the way the system "should" work (in the sense that the system would work better if it was this way) the solution is simple. Find some investors and some doctors, and start a medical practice or a hospital that works this way.

If you're right, you'll be more successful than other hospitals and everyone will switch to your model. If you're wrong, you'll go out of business.

That's really simplistic. He will go out of business either way. If he's right, what you suggest will cost more. The insurance companies wont pay and he will go out of business. Have you got a few million to lone him to implement your hair brain idea? There are numerous situations where the free market is not the solution. That's why we have governments.

fx77
11-30-2012, 06:59
I would much rather have a warranty an not get paid or refund service fees than pay for malpractice insurance each and every year. Great idea..think about it guys...

certifiedfunds
11-30-2012, 07:09
I wonder why there is no cure yet, I was going to a Chinese herb doctor here in the Seattle area who was curing all the diseases that modern medicine says there is no cure for. Such as cancers modern medicine they told the people there was no cure for, Lupus, Lou Gerig disease, MD, ect. His name was Hen Sen Chin and you didn't have to sell your house to pay him.

So what do his patients die from? Or do they live forever?

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 07:27
That's really simplistic.

Some things are simple.

He will go out of business either way.
He will, because it's a stupid idea, but this is the ultimate test.

If he's right, what you suggest will cost more.

If it costs more, he's wrong.

The insurance companies wont pay and he will go out of business.

So don't take insurance. There's plenty of cash-only concierge medicine out there and the sector is showing significant growth.

Have you got a few million to lone him to implement your hair brain idea?

It's HIS idea, not mine. If I had a few million to "lone" (does your financial illiteracy really extend so far that you don't know how to spell simple financial words?) him, I'd take a look at his business plan and probably decide it's not a very good idea. The human body is not a washing machine. Selling warranties on it is not going to be a very profitable endeavor.

There are numerous situations where the free market is not the solution. That's why we have governments.

Anything the government does, it does less efficiently than the free market can. Sometimes we accept that inefficiency as the cost of doing business--for example, we don't buy police services on the free market--but medical care is something that the market can (and should!) provide.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 07:28
I would much rather have a warranty an not get paid or refund service fees than pay for malpractice insurance each and every year. Great idea..think about it guys...

I bet if you had an actuary crank through it, the warranty/refund and administrative costs would far outweigh the malpractice insurance costs. You'd have lawyers arguing about what symptoms are covered under warranty.

muscogee
11-30-2012, 07:31
Anything the government does, it does less efficiently than the free market can. Sometimes we accept that inefficiency as the cost of doing business--for example, we don't buy police services on the free market- Why not?

-but medical care is something that the market can (and should!) provide.
Why?

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 07:42
Why not?

We've decided as a society that we want, as much as possible, the outcome of police and judicial services to be independent of the private wealth of the parties involved. We don't want rich people to get away with crime simply because they're rich, and privately-funded police have a perverse incentive to do just that.

That's the main reason, there are others. The other big one is that, in contrast to medical care, police services are simply not that expensive.

Why?

Because having medicine be privately funded saves lives. The profit motivation is what drives innovation in the field. Medical research is expensive.

Also, medical CARE is expensive. The limited amount of socialized medicine we practice now is already bankrupting our country.

17&27
11-30-2012, 08:43
I learned very quickly when my sister and I had to take over and make medical decisions for our aging mother that just because a doctor has a diploma on his wall this does not mean he is not an idiot.
We found prescriptions that were dangerous when taken together and had to point this out to the doctor. After catching 3 different doctors making screwups I lost quite a bit of respect for the medical profession.
I own an automotive repair shop and told the doctors they are lucky, they get to bury their mistakes.

jason10mm
11-30-2012, 09:25
Lonestar 48 is a good example of the principle that nice but average doctors get sued less than excellent but gruff doctors. Having a positive personal connection with your patients will save you from more lawsuits than exceptional technical competence paired with a bad attitude.

Of course I figured this out early on so rather than change my attitude I just duck out of direct patient care :P

Medicine is a *****. It is complex, frequently contradictory, and highly variable. Go check out a medical book from 1850. It can cover a wide range of subjects in a single volume. Compare that to the LIBRARY of medical texts, journals, and periodicals of today. I'm oversimplifying a bit, but it is exceedingly difficult to keep track of all the innovations and advances occuring today in every field, or even within your own field. Not to say docs should be excused for errors, but complications and bad outcomes do happen and patients and docs should discuss these possibilities beforehand.

sputnik767
11-30-2012, 11:25
I think doctors should not be paid until they cure you, no cure no pay.

Wow, you really haven't a clue as to how medicine works do you? I generally believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to publicly display such weapons-grade stupidity makes me question your logic entirely. Please tell me how you would cure diseases like multiple sclerosis, scleroderma, HIV, Crohn's/ulcerative colitis, cholangiocarcinoma, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's etc. Hint, those diseases have no cure. Some have potential cures, but most are managed symptomatically. And those are just a few.

muscogee
11-30-2012, 11:25
Also, medical CARE is expensive. The limited amount of socialized medicine we practice now is already bankrupting our country. so what do we do about it?

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 11:28
so what do we do about it?

We stop paying for medical care for those who can't afford it.

It's going to happen one way or another--either by design as we overhaul the program, or all at once when we go bankrupt. Might as well get out in front of it and try to manage the catastrophe as best as possible.

*ASH*
11-30-2012, 11:31
im tired of paying a huge premium for deadbeats , welfare cheese hoarders , and general scum people. thats all i got to say

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 11:33
to publicly display such weapons-grade stupidity

:rofl:

Dennis in MA
11-30-2012, 11:35
I was a high end designer and builder of fine furniture all my life .
Point being , I was held to a higher standard than the medical proffession, No mercy , no flaws , perfection every time.

On the other hand , I,ve been to six different doctors to finally find out what my problem was. They didn't fix anything and yes , I had to pay them . Makes one wander ?

The problem turned out quite serious but after three surgeries ,
I'm ok now . I should not have payed the others .......!

I've been to mechanics that operate the same way. "We think this might fix your noise. Here's your bill."

GRD67
11-30-2012, 11:47
Wow, you really haven't a clue as to how medicine works do you? I generally believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to publicly display such weapons-grade stupidity makes me question your logic entirely. Please tell me how you would cure diseases like multiple sclerosis, scleroderma, HIV, Crohn's/ulcerative colitis, cholangiocarcinoma, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's etc. Hint, those diseases have no cure. Some have potential cures, but most are managed symptomatically. And those are just a few.

So what is stupid about trying alternative sources if one source can't help you, that's all I've been saying all along. Of course you go to modern medicine first. I don't know how to cure those but if nobody else did I would recommend talking to Julie at http://www.hensenherbs.com/ she is Hen Sen Chin's daughter.

JMS
11-30-2012, 12:00
So what is stupid about trying alternative sources if one source can't help you, that's all I've been saying all along. Of course you go to modern medicine first. I don't know how to cure those but if nobody else did I would recommend talking to Julie at http://www.hensenherbs.com/ she is Hen Sen Chin's daughter.

I did call her, she said that she doesn't deal with the mentally insane like her father did, unfortunately he was never able to cure them.

sputnik767
11-30-2012, 12:02
So what is stupid about trying alternative sources if one source can't help you, that's all I've been saying all along. Of course you go to modern medicine first. I don't know how to cure those but if nobody else did I would recommend talking to Julie at http://www.hensenherbs.com/ she is Hen Sen Chin's daughter.

My post was in direct response to the post I quoted from you. I made no mention of trying alternative treatments. However, you need to be realistic. Yes, there are some medicines that we use, which came straight from natural sources, Atropine (deadly nightshade), Digoxin (foxglove), Vincristine (periwinkle), just to name a few. The first 2 are used primarily in cardiac issues and the last one is an anti-cancer drug. But while there may be a chance that herbalists, traditional chinese medicine, etc may be using a compound that has not yet been used in modern medicine, chances are great that if modern medicine can't help you, traditional medicine will not either. You can't take the few anecdotal accounts of alternative medicine working, and extrapolate it to the entire field of medical pathology. Still, physicians should not discourage patients from seeking alternative treatments, but they should inform them of the dangers.

However, the reason I posted the diseases that I did is precisely because they are incurable, for a variety of reasons. Some are autoimmune (your own body working against you), HIV kills your CD4 t-cells allowing another pathogen to kill you, and cholangiocarcinoma is deadly in the vast majority of cases because by the time it's discovered, it si far too late. Even with the best medical care, around 90% die within a few months.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 12:04
So what is stupid about trying alternative sources if one source can't help you, that's all I've been saying all along.

Something is not an "alternative source" if it can't be proven or explained why it works.

You still have not been able to articulate how you "know" that these folks can cure cancer.

Of course you go to modern medicine first. I don't know how to cure those but if nobody else did I would recommend talking to Julie at http://www.hensenherbs.com/ she is Hen Sen Chin's daughter.

Do they pay you a commission or something?

If Julie (and Hen Sen Chin) truly knew how to cure cancer... they are evil people who have murdered more folks than Hitler and Stalin combined. They kept the secret to themselves when they could have gotten immensely rich and saved the lives of millions. All they had to do was tell the world, and submit their methods to standard scientific testing.

dherloc
11-30-2012, 12:08
.....!

nmk
11-30-2012, 12:12
weapons-grade stupidity

:rofl:

This is by far the best thing to come out of this thread.

Rabbi
11-30-2012, 12:29
so what do we do about it?

You know muscogee, everyone here picks on you, calling you a socialist or worse. While I agree with them, I am not going to do that here. I am going to take another approach and I am going to be honest.

I get how you "feel." I mean that. I understand what it is you want and why you think it is valid. You certainly dont want anything bad for people. You are not a bad person yourself and you see what appears to be injustice and inequity and you want that fixed. With the example of health care, no one wants to see people suffer.

Here is the problem with all of that...people with liberal fiscal tendencies make one fatal mistake...they simply dont understand that sometimes the bad thing(s) happen. You cant solve every problem....and in trying to do so, sometimes you can make it far worse.

There are some people that simply cant except the fact that someone is going to get screwed and would rather live in a world where, no matter what the cost (which they often dont really think through)...no one gets screwed.

I get that. I understand why people think that way but it doesnt work.

We have all of human history to prove that. You simply can not give something to someone without it comming from someone else. There is generally no value added in that.

Do people have *more* now than they did 100 years ago? (of course) people created wealth and value. If, 100 years ago, we simply took everything we had, divided it up in equal parts, where would be today?

People working creates more and better for everyone in a continued manner. When you start to give what people have to others, you only get to do that once. I.E, if you let a man work he will create and build as long as he is working. You only get to take all he has once.

You can destroy everything or you can continue to live in a world that is working is spite of its inequities.

jollygreen
11-30-2012, 12:43
You know muscogee, everyone here picks on you, calling you a socialist or worse. While I agree with them, I am not going to do that here.

Um, you just did. :supergrin:

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

JMS
11-30-2012, 12:50
You know muscogee, everyone here picks on you, calling you a socialist or worse. While I agree with them, I am not going to do that here. I am going to take another approach and I am going to be honest.

I get how you "feel." I mean that. I understand what it is you want and why you think it is valid. You certainly dont want anything bad for people. You are not a bad person yourself and you see what appears to be injustice and inequity and you want that fixed. With the example of health care, no one wants to see people suffer.

Here is the problem with all of that...people with liberal fiscal tendencies make one fatal mistake...they simply dont understand that sometimes the bad thing(s) happen. You cant solve every problem....and in trying to do so, sometimes you can make it far worse.

There are some people that simply cant except the fact that someone is going to get screwed and would rather live in a world where, no matter what the cost (which they often dont really think through)...no one gets screwed.

I get that. I understand why people think that way but it doesnt work.

We have all of human history to prove that. You simply can not give something to someone without it comming from someone else. There is generally no value added in that.

Do people have *more* now than they did 100 years ago? (of course) people created wealth and value. If, 100 years ago, we simply took everything we had, divided it up in equal parts, where would be today?

People working creates more and better for everyone in a continued manner. When you start to give what people have to others, you only get to do that once. I.E, if you let a man work he will create and build as long as he is working. You only get to take all he has once.

You can destroy everything or you can continue to live in a world that is working is spite of its inequities.

Bravo :wavey: The Shabbos Queen has brought on a newer, kinder Rabbi. Sometimes the delivery matters as much as the message. (not being sarcastic)

Rabbi
11-30-2012, 12:55
Um, you just did. :supergrin:

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

No. I did not pick on the man in that post. I did not call him a name either. I did take a position but I did not commit the act.

Rabbi
11-30-2012, 13:02
Bravo :wavey: The Shabbos Queen has brought on a newer, kinder Rabbi. Sometimes the delivery matters as much as the message. (not being sarcastic)

I dont often give a crap about the delivery and it is important for me to know who cares about that as much as the message.

I like to identify people who tend to be part of the problem.

Information is just that. People who try to make it about anything else tend to fall far short of all they could be. You are a perfect example. It doesnt matter if you are wrong, you still call me out based on how you feel about me. Why the hell would you want to be that guy?

If you (or anyone) doesnt like me. Say so. Dont make yourself look like a fool because you confuse your feeling for me and the information I present. Again, why the hell would you want to be that guy? Your desire to feel ill about me and wish I would do things more to your liking is more important to you than growing as person. Again I ask, why the hell would you want to be that guy? Do you have so little control over your feelings that you cant help it?

JMS
11-30-2012, 13:13
I dont often give a crap about the delivery and it is important for me to know who cares about that as much as the message.

I like to identify people who tend to be part of the problem.

Information is just that. People who try to make it about anything else tend to fall far short of all they could be. You are a perfect example. It doesnt matter if you are wrong, you still call me out based on how you feel about me. Why the hell would you want to be that guy?

If you (or anyone) doesnt like me. Say so. Dont make yourself look like a fool because you confuse your feeling for me and the information I present. Again, why the hell would you want to be that guy? Your desire to feel ill about me and wish I would do things more to your liking is more important to you than growing as person. Again I ask, why the hell would you want to be that guy? Do you have so little control over your feelings that you cant help it?

I spoke too soon. You'll be a ********* until you're shot on the job.

Rabbi
11-30-2012, 13:17
I spoke too soon. You'll be a ********* until you're shot on the job.

I may have all kinds of negative personality traits...but I am accurate, factual and knowledgable.

...you are just a guy who whines and complains about how you feel about me.

NeverMore1701
11-30-2012, 13:17
I spoke too soon. You'll be a ********* until you're shot on the job.

What about you?

Detectorist
11-30-2012, 13:28
You know muscogee, everyone here picks on you, calling you a socialist or worse. While I agree with them, I am not going to do that here. I am going to take another approach and I am going to be honest.

I get how you "feel." I mean that. I understand what it is you want and why you think it is valid. You certainly dont want anything bad for people. You are not a bad person yourself and you see what appears to be injustice and inequity and you want that fixed. With the example of health care, no one wants to see people suffer.

Here is the problem with all of that...people with liberal fiscal tendencies make one fatal mistake...they simply dont understand that sometimes the bad thing(s) happen. You cant solve every problem....and in trying to do so, sometimes you can make it far worse.

There are some people that simply cant except the fact that someone is going to get screwed and would rather live in a world where, no matter what the cost (which they often dont really think through)...no one gets screwed.

I get that. I understand why people think that way but it doesnt work.

We have all of human history to prove that. You simply can not give something to someone without it comming from someone else. There is generally no value added in that.

Do people have *more* now than they did 100 years ago? (of course) people created wealth and value. If, 100 years ago, we simply took everything we had, divided it up in equal parts, where would be today?

People working creates more and better for everyone in a continued manner. When you start to give what people have to others, you only get to do that once. I.E, if you let a man work he will create and build as long as he is working. You only get to take all he has once.

You can destroy everything or you can continue to live in a world that is working is spite of its inequities.

Who are you and what did you do with the real Rabbi? lol

muscogee
11-30-2012, 14:34
We stop paying for medical care for those who can't afford it.

It's going to happen one way or another--either by design as we overhaul the program, or all at once when we go bankrupt. Might as well get out in front of it and try to manage the catastrophe as best as possible.

I respect your PhD in Physics but yo don't know jack about psychology or sociology. Your fantasy ain't gonna happen. We're going to eventually have the same kind of health care the rest of the civilized world has. Health care is like police protection and fire protection. It's too important to be left to the rapaciousness of crony capitalism, and that's the only kind we have in the U.S.

muscogee
11-30-2012, 14:38
You know muscogee, everyone here picks on you, calling you a socialist or worse. While I agree with them, I am not going to do that here. I am going to take another approach and I am going to be honest.

I get how you "feel." I mean that. I understand what it is you want and why you think it is valid. You certainly dont want anything bad for people. You are not a bad person yourself and you see what appears to be injustice and inequity and you want that fixed. With the example of health care, no one wants to see people suffer.

Here is the problem with all of that...people with liberal fiscal tendencies make one fatal mistake...they simply dont understand that sometimes the bad thing(s) happen. You cant solve every problem....and in trying to do so, sometimes you can make it far worse.

There are some people that simply cant except the fact that someone is going to get screwed and would rather live in a world where, no matter what the cost (which they often dont really think through)...no one gets screwed.

I get that. I understand why people think that way but it doesnt work.

We have all of human history to prove that. You simply can not give something to someone without it comming from someone else. There is generally no value added in that.

Do people have *more* now than they did 100 years ago? (of course) people created wealth and value. If, 100 years ago, we simply took everything we had, divided it up in equal parts, where would be today?

People working creates more and better for everyone in a continued manner. When you start to give what people have to others, you only get to do that once. I.E, if you let a man work he will create and build as long as he is working. You only get to take all he has once.

You can destroy everything or you can continue to live in a world that is working is spite of its inequities.

I can't accept the fact that this is the only civilized country in the world where the working class and the middle class are regularly driven into bankruptcy due to health care costs. It doesn't have to be this way.

certifiedfunds
11-30-2012, 14:40
I respect your PhD in Physics but yo don't know jack about psychology or sociology. Your fantasy ain't gonna happen. We're going to eventually have the same kind of health care the rest of the civilized world has. Health care is like police protection and fire protection. It's too important to be left to the rapaciousness of crony capitalism, and that's the only kind we have in the U.S.

We're gonna have crappy healthcare too?

muscogee
11-30-2012, 14:44
No. I did not pick on the man in that post. I did not call him a name either. I did take a position but I did not commit the act.

I didn't take your comments personal. We're debating philosophy. I respect you staying on topic and not getting personal. I don't get angry with people who get personal but I get frustrated because it such a waste of time and bandwidth.

certifiedfunds
11-30-2012, 15:01
I didn't take your comments personal. We're debating philosophy. I respect you staying on topic and not getting personal. I don't get angry with people who get personal but I get frustrated because it such a waste of time and bandwidth.

Taking healthcare and money from one person who earned it and giving it to another, IS personal.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 15:10
I respect your PhD in Physics but yo don't know jack about psychology or sociology.

I don't disagree with you. But what do either of those subjects have anything to do with basic economics?

Your fantasy ain't gonna happen.

It's not a "fantasy." It's the reality.

It's brutal, and it sucks, and as long as people like you continue to think that "wishes" can change it or "sociology" has anything to do with how we pay for medical care, it's inevitable.

I don't recall you ever commenting on whether you've served in the military. Compared to the War on Terror combat veterans we now have around, my service was quite tame. Yet I still (all the time when I was an NCO) thought about what it is to make hard choices.

Sometimes necessity forces us to make choices that we wish we didn't have to make. US military officers have given orders to blow disabled vehicles in place, or to abandon ships that can't maintain formation. There's that famous Russian painting of the woman throwing the baby to the wolves so that the people in the sleigh can escape. People have to make calls like that when trying to save everyone will result in saving no one.

We are in the same boat now. If we try to provide medical care to everyone in this country, we will fail and we will go bankrupt. We simply cannot afford to do so. There is not enough money. We can try to figure out how to not have an emergency later, or we can kick the can down the road and have a catastrophe when it all falls off the cliff.

Unless we can get people like you to face reality, we're never going to avoid the cliff.

We're going to eventually have the same kind of health care the rest of the civilized world has.

The rest of the civilized world that's going rapidly bankrupt, you mean?

The rest of the civilized world where health care is rationed by government bureaucrats?

The rest of the civilized world where it's literally illegal to purchase medical care through the private market?

The fact is that there is no successful socialized medicine system anywhere in the world that would come close to working in America. The countries are too different to compare.

Switzerland has excellent socialized medicine. They also have less people than New York City, and a strong source of foreign income through their sale of banking services. They can afford it.

Norway has only 5 million people and a ton of oil money. They can afford their socialized medicine too.

Those are pretty much the only ones. Look at the failures. Britain's NHS is great at providing DMV-level basic care, but depends on importing cheap doctors from India to find people who are willing to work for what the NHS will pay. Sweden has less people than the Chicago metro area, and their socialized medical system has already bankrupted their country once. France is going bankrupt fast, with debt-to-GDP ratios approaching 150%. Japan hasn't had economic growth in almost 15 years now, under the crushing weight of their social insurance and public health debt.

The simple fact is, socialized medicine only works in small countries which depend on huge reserves of wealth or foreign trade (I think Kuwait might have a strong socialized medical system as well, now that I think about it, funded by oil revenues). We're 300 million people. We're bigger than France, Germany, England, all of Scandinavia, and Switzerland put together.

The only health care system that stands a prayer of working is a privatized one. Government is simply not efficient enough to deliver these services to the US population. There are too many of us.

Believe it or not, I'm with you. I wish the government could provide cheap health care to everyone. I wish no one had to die because they are poor.

I also wish I had a flying unicorn that ****s rainbows.

The fact is, we can't afford health care for everyone, and if we try we will destroy health care for anyone.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 15:11
I can't accept the fact
See, there's your problem.

Facts don't care if you "accept" them or not. They just are.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 15:12
We're debating philosophy.

No. We are debating reality.

It's not about "how it should be" or "wouldn't it be nice if."

It's about "here's how it is--how do we fix the mess we're in."

The fact that you can't see this reality is the fundamental reason why you are and continue to be wrong.

CAcop
11-30-2012, 16:35
Who are you and what did you do with the real Rabbi? lol

I've been noticing a certain "edge" to him lately. I suspect it might be "new guy in LE" syndrome. The first few years can bring pretty significant changes to personality. Later as burnout sets in it changes again.

Kind of like women from first period to end of menopause. Just without the hot flashes.

Lonestar 48
11-30-2012, 16:54
Let's bring it back to the point. Here are the facts; I'm just asking who agrees or disagrees, and why.

Doctor made a mistake. Up to the mistake, the bill was $13,000. After the mistake, the bill was just over $125,000. (See my original post for the mistake; that is exactly what happened.)

I have very good insurance that that came courtesy of a buyout from my longtime employer.

My stance is that all the procedures caused by the mistake should be paid by the doctor and/or the hospital.

Social philosophy and differences of opinion aside, and although I mentioned warranty in the thread, what do you guys think about doctors or/and hospitals footing the bill in instances like mine? Warranty was probably the wrong word; rather responsibility for surgical work performed might be a better way to express my thoughts.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 17:00
My stance is that all the procedures caused by the mistake should be paid by the doctor and/or the hospital.

What people are trying to point out to you is that, except in cases of gross negligence, it's very difficult to say which procedures were "caused by the mistake" and which are just complications that might happen in any case.

what do you guys think about doctors or/and hospitals footing the bill in instances like mine?

I think if doctors and/or hospitals had to do so, the initial cost wouldn't have been anywhere near $13k. They are not going to simply eat the liability. You are going to end up paying for it, one way or another. If they can't charge extra when complications pop up, they'll charge a higher average fee in order to cover complications that way. Your costs would go down but everyone else's average costs would go up.

Lonestar 48
11-30-2012, 17:09
What people are trying to point out to you is that, except in cases of gross negligence, it's very difficult to say which procedures were "caused by the mistake" and which are just complications that might happen in any case.

In my case, it was very easy to pinpoint the mistake. Doctor to Steve when he woke up; "You are lucky to be here. I severed your artery during the stent procedure and you almost bled out before we could open you up and correct my mistake. I am so sorry." Can't be much more obvious than that.

And for the last several pages, I haven't seen anyone trying to point anything out to me. More like a bunch of geeks arguing over the best calculator. Don't take offense; my son is just finishing his studies in petroleum engineering, so he is definitely a geek, but I love him none the less.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 17:14
In my case, it was very easy to pinpoint the mistake.
You're missing the point. YOUR case may have been clear cut. But a hospital/doctor policy isn't going to cover just YOUR case. There will always be a grey area, and prices would rise in order to cover the costs associated with that grey area (rise a bit more, in fact, to also cover additional administrative and legal costs).

Doctor to Steve when he woke up; "You are lucky to be here. I severed your artery during the stent procedure and you almost bled out before we could open you up and correct my mistake. I am so sorry." Can't be much more obvious than that.

Hence my point about gross malpractice. I'm not a doctor, but I'd bet that this falls into that category.

Glocksanity
11-30-2012, 17:17
You definitely should go to your local cancer ward and say that to everyone you find.

Actually, my dad's got lung cancer and brain cancer. He quit smoking 40 years ago. You should come say it to him. Tell him he "earned" it.

Your dad might not have earned his cancer. I did not categorically state that ALL cancers are earned, just most.

So, if he did earn it, he did.

Most people don't want to take responsibility for their states of health and disease. Too bad.

Lonestar 48
11-30-2012, 17:24
Maybe the more important question is how often does this happen? What are the costs born by patients and their insurance when this occurs? Is status quo the best way to handle this, or could an analysis be done to see if there is a better way?

I'm not an attorney, an expert who would probably determine "gross malpractice", so I really can't comment on that, or bet one way or the other.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 17:25
Your dad might not have earned his cancer. I did not categorically state that ALL cancers are earned, just most.

Right. And that statement is insane.

Did some people bring disease upon themselves by engaging in unhealthy lifestyle choices? Sure. But "most" did not.

And wanting to go yell "CONGRATULATIONS" into the faces of sick and dying people is just sadistic. Even people who made poor choices deserve compassion.

Detectorist
11-30-2012, 17:32
Let's bring it back to the point. Here are the facts; I'm just asking who agrees or disagrees, and why.

Doctor made a mistake. Up to the mistake, the bill was $13,000. After the mistake, the bill was just over $125,000. (See my original post for the mistake; that is exactly what happened.)

I have very good insurance that that came courtesy of a buyout from my longtime employer.

My stance is that all the procedures caused by the mistake should be paid by the doctor and/or the hospital.

Social philosophy and differences of opinion aside, and although I mentioned warranty in the thread, what do you guys think about doctors or/and hospitals footing the bill in instances like mine? Warranty was probably the wrong word; rather responsibility for surgical work performed might be a better way to express my thoughts.

I agree with your there. I'm surprised that the GNG crowd who are so firmly in favor of personal responsibility, don't agree with you. The problem is, they are afraid of creating even bigger issues. I have no doubt that a good lawyer would have gotten you paid.

Jim in MI
11-30-2012, 17:32
In my case, it was very easy to pinpoint the mistake. Doctor to Steve when he woke up; "You are lucky to be here. I severed your artery during the stent procedure and you almost bled out before we could open you up and correct my mistake. I am so sorry." Can't be much more obvious than that.

And for the last several pages, I haven't seen anyone trying to point anything out to me. More like a bunch of geeks arguing over the best calculator. Don't take offense; my son is just finishing his studies in petroleum engineering, so he is definitely a geek, but I love him none the less.

See, here is the deal....

the stent is inserted over a wire (the wire is passed up first)

Sometimes, the wire punctures the artery, it does not tear it in two

Sometimes, the artery is so hard, calcified, crappy, ect, putting a stent in it just breaks/tears it. Any doctor on the planet opening a stent in that artery...whammo....broken/torn artery

They are doing this though your groin while taking x rays of your chest, and watching (often videotaping) it on a TV.

Now if you think the doc that does this all of the time did it wrong, told you he did it wrong, and then another doc told you the 1st doc did it wrong (docs would rather pull their own fingernails off than say another doc screwed up)....well...I think your docs were talking to you too soon in recovery and you were still a little under. Maybe the resident/fellow did it wrong and they are covering. I just don't see how a doc percutaneously cuts an artery into 2 pieces with only a wire and a stent in the body

2bgop
11-30-2012, 17:40
Maybe the more important question is how often does this happen? What are the costs born by patients and their insurance when this occurs? Is status quo the best way to handle this, or could an analysis be done to see if there is a better way?

I'm not an attorney, an expert who would probably determine "gross malpractice", so I really can't comment on that, or bet one way or the other.

A better way for what? If you think your Dr was negligent in his treatment of you, you have plenty of options available.

427
11-30-2012, 17:46
So, when you get diabetes or cancer (most of them anyways, unless you live in Fukashima or Chernobyl) or heart disease, I say CONGRATULATIONS! You have earned it!!


My dad has had diabetes for 40+ years. His disease runs in his family. Tell him he earned it.

My dad has been battling cancer for 5+ years. Lymphoma and skin cancer. Tell him he earned them.

My mom had breast cancer. Tell her she earned it.

If you do have the balls to say it to their face - they are elderly, you better hope I'm not around.

GRD67
11-30-2012, 18:03
And wanting to go yell "CONGRATULATIONS" into the faces of sick and dying people is just sadistic. Even people who made poor choices deserve compassion.

Devildog can you explain to me how you can talk about compassion and make statements like this;

If Julie (and Hen Sen Chin) truly knew how to cure cancer... they are evil people who have murdered more folks than Hitler and Stalin combined. They kept the secret to themselves when they could have gotten immensely rich and saved the lives of millions. All they had to do was tell the world, and submit their methods to standard scientific testing.

And by the way their doors are not lock to anyone.

singularity35
11-30-2012, 18:06
And wanting to go yell "CONGRATULATIONS" into the faces of sick and dying people is just sadistic. Even people who made poor choices deserve compassion.

Devildog can you explain to me how you can talk about compassion and make statements like this;

If Julie (and Hen Sen Chin) truly knew how to cure cancer... they are evil people who have murdered more folks than Hitler and Stalin combined. They kept the secret to themselves when they could have gotten immensely rich and saved the lives of millions. All they had to do was tell the world, and submit their methods to standard scientific testing.

And by the way their doors are not lock to anyone.

Deeper and deeper...

http://www.dreamstime.com/boy-digging-a-hole-thumb20074662.jpg

NeverMore1701
11-30-2012, 18:13
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jWNhyMUpjSE/TSDicxbE7bI/AAAAAAAAH9o/JcKpDeU0ttQ/s1600/funny-picture-the-stupid-it-burns.jpg

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 18:14
How have you been here for 10 years and not managed to learn how to use the "quote" function? It's the little red button in the bottom right of every post that says "Quote" on it.

Here:
And wanting to go yell "CONGRATULATIONS" into the faces of sick and dying people is just sadistic. Even people who made poor choices deserve compassion.

Devildog can you explain to me how you can talk about compassion and make statements like this;

Yes, yes I can. You see, I have the ability to think critically about things and apply logic. The fact that you even ask this question surprises me, even from you.

You see, if Glocksanity was to go to a hospital cancer ward and say

CONGRATULATIONS! You have earned it!!

to a patient, that would simply be sadistic. It would serve absolutely no purpose except to cause further pain to someone who is suffering from a disease. Even if you were to accept Glocksanity's initial premise (that the disease patients caused their own diseases through lifestyle choices) there would still be no reason to say such a horrible, hurtful thing. Saying it would not change any outcome in any way.



If Julie (and Hen Sen Chin) truly knew how to cure cancer... they are evil people who have murdered more folks than Hitler and Stalin combined. They kept the secret to themselves when they could have gotten immensely rich and saved the lives of millions. All they had to do was tell the world, and submit their methods to standard scientific testing.

And by the way their doors are not lock to anyone.

What I said is different. The logic is simple:

1) If you accept that your Chinese herbalist friend could indeed cure cancer, then
2) He (or you or his daughter) failed to attempt to convince the rest of the medical establishment, thereby
3) allowing millions of people who YOU CLAIM could have been cured to die needlessly.

If they do indeed have a cure, then by staying silent, by failing to share their cure with the world, they allowed people to die. If Hen Sen Chin was able to cure cancer, and he had shared his secret 20 years ago, then my dad wouldn't be dying right now.

You can't have it both ways: either you are wrong about this cure existing (which is what I believe, until you present me with evidence) or your friend killed millions by not shouting about his cure from the rooftops. The two are mutually exclusive.

muscogee
11-30-2012, 18:31
See, there's your problem.

Facts don't care if you "accept" them or not. They just are.

You quoted me out of context. I see through the propaganda. Obviously you don't.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 18:34
You quoted me out of contexts.
And you ignored the rest of my (long) posts.

I see through the propaganda. Obviously you don't.

I ignore the propaganda and do the math. You should try crunching the numbers.

certifiedfunds
11-30-2012, 18:41
And you ignored the rest of my (long) posts.



I ignore the propaganda and do the math. You should try crunching the numbers.

He's a statistics professor

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 18:44
He's a statistics professor

I'm aware that he claims to teach a graduate level statistics course. I don't have enough information to believe or disbelieve him. I have no knowledge of his understanding of math.

I do know that it's simply not possible for someone with a basic understanding of math to look at the budget of a country like Norway, then at ours, and NOT conclude that health care is bankrupting our government. It's pretty damn obvious.

My guess is that he's never bothered to look at our budget in detail.

DanaT
11-30-2012, 18:53
He's a statistics professor

So next time I need help with testing statistical significance using Chi^2, I know who to call on ?

certifiedfunds
11-30-2012, 19:16
So next time I need help with testing statistical significance using Chi^2, I know who to call on ?

Correct

2bgop
11-30-2012, 20:07
So next time I need help with testing statistical significance using Chi^2, I know who to call on ?

You really don't need to be to be a grad level statistics professor to help you check distribution.

certifiedfunds
11-30-2012, 20:09
You really don't need to be to be a grad level statistics professor to help you check distribution.

But we have a grad level statistics professor so we're golden anyway.

muscogee
11-30-2012, 20:21
And you ignored the rest of my (long) posts.[/QUOTE] Repeating propaganda does not make it true.

I ignore the propaganda and do the math. You should try crunching the numbers. Really? You have access to the raw data? You participated in the collection of that data and attest to its validity? I doubt that. I think you just believe the propaganda you're fed without question.

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 20:39
And you ignored the rest of my (long) posts. Repeating propaganda does not make it true.

In other words, you don't like what I said so you're ignoring it rather than responding to it.

Really? You have access to the raw data?
The federal budget is public record, for virtually every first world country.

You've never even TRIED to look at any data, have you?

F14Scott
11-30-2012, 22:05
So what is stupid about trying alternative sources if one source can't help you, that's all I've been saying all along. Of course you go to modern medicine first. I don't know how to cure those but if nobody else did I would recommend talking to Julie at http://www.hensenherbs.com/ she is Hen Sen Chin's daughter.

Trying alternative sources that have been in business since 1951 and claim success at healing people, yet have no published, peer-reviewed, repeatable, doubly-blind-administered, statistically significant results, is stupid.

If I told you that doing a rain dance produced rain, you'd call me stupid. If I did a rain dance a day prior to a rain storm and called it proof, you'd again call me stupid. If I gave ten instances of dances prior to rain, you'd still call me stupid.

While it may be a natural human response to try to "just do something, anything" in the face of death by terminal disease, that does not make such an action smart. Smart is following established science to the letter, and, when it fails, turning one's efforts to surviving and then dying with dignity.

Frankly, and I won't score any points with the religious among us by saying this, I think the reaction of turning to the mystical in the face of death is what gives rise to many people's belief in a completely unprovable God. That you have faith in both God and a Chinese herbalist is entirely consistent.

JMS
11-30-2012, 22:54
That you have faith in both God and a Chinese herbalist is entirely consistent.

Imagine if the herbalist was an atheist. :rofl:

muscogee
12-01-2012, 05:46
In other words, you don't like what I said so you're ignoring it rather than responding to it.
I've heard it before.

The federal budget is public record, for virtually every first world country.

You've never even TRIED to look at any data, have you?
So explain the math you boasting about. Why can't the U.S. have universal health care liked the rest of the civilized world?

certifiedfunds
12-01-2012, 07:02
I've heard it before.


So explain the math you boasting about. Why can't the U.S. have universal health care liked the rest of the civilized world?

Because we can't afford it and neither can they.

You cannot give everything to everyone. Every commodity must have a rationing mechanism. Once you make something free you can't possibly make enough of it.

How does one become a statistics professor and manage to never take a single economics course?

DanaT
12-01-2012, 07:11
You really don't need to be to be a grad level statistics professor to help you check distribution.

But maybe our person with a phd in stats could give us some actual data on based upon the average cumlative survivability curves of different procedures that doctors perform. I would think that we could then be using facts instead of just opinion to talk about this.

So, mr muskogee, what do you believe the statistically predicted minimum cumulative number of cycles, based upon a 99% percent confidence and 99% reliability of said device, that a stent should endure since we have been talking about stents?

I am sure you can help us shed some light on this.

DanaT
12-01-2012, 07:19
I've heard it before.


So explain the math you boasting about. Why can't the U.S. have universal health care liked the rest of the civilized world?

Take 3 minutes. Read this.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/26/business/interview-niall-ferguson/index.html?iref=allsearch

Take 5 minutes to process what it says.

Then take 5 more.

Here is the conclusion. The economy of east is growing, the west shrinking. "And everywhere you see the same basic story, whether you're looking at northern Europe, southern Europe, or north America -- welfare states become harder and harder to finance, and structural budget deficits emerge."

Read it, Process it. Extrapolate to the future. Then think again. Then think about how good a model Greece is for universal health care. Then Spain. Then think again.

jame
12-01-2012, 07:57
But maybe our person with a phd in stats could give us some actual data on based upon the average cumlative survivability curves of different procedures that doctors perform. I would think that we could then be using facts instead of just opinion to talk about this.


I've been watching this nightmare thread burn, and that's the smartest thing I've seen posted yet. This could have ended pages and pages ago.

If anyone has "the numbers" required to prove a point, post 'em.

Maybe then this thread will finally be relegated to somewhere in archive land.

Left-Right
12-01-2012, 09:28
Couple of things. First: The O.P. stated he has a grievance. Solution: retain an attorney and file a malpractice suit if you think it's warranted.


Second: To the umpteen responders to this post, here is something to watch to help you get better, Argument Clinic - YouTube

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 10:18
So explain the math you boasting about. Why can't the U.S. have universal health care liked the rest of the civilized world?

I did, in the post you refuse to read through.

The countries which have moderately successful universal health care are both a) small and b) depend on selling goods or services outside their country. In other words, they only can afford to have universal health care because they make someone else pay for it. I'm talking about countries like Canada (~35M people, smaller than California), Switzerland (~8M people, smaller than the Chicago metro area), Norway (~5M people, smaller than the Atlanta metro area), and Liechtenstein (36,000 people, smaller than the NYPD). They will be able to have universal health care as long as people still buy Canadian natural gas, or Swiss banking secrecy, or Norwegian oil, or Liechtensteinian front offices (Liechtenstein has the lowest corporate tax rate in the world, and therefore has more registered companies in it than it has citizens--companies establish legal headquarters there so they can pay 12% taxes). If those income sources ever dry up, these countries will find themselves suddenly unable to afford to provide "universal" health care but until then they should be ok.

Then you have the larger socialist countries, like France and the UK. In these countries the systems are already starting to crumble. Over half of France's GDP is from government spending. Its debt-to-GDP ratio just passed 150%. France is already bankrupt, and it's borrowing money to pay for its universal healthcare system. One day people will stop lending money to France, and the government checks are going to start bouncing. Do you think French doctors are going to work for free?

And we're larger than most of the European countries combined, in terms of population (there are 300 million-ish Americans). If a country like the UK with only 60 million people and a strong financial services industry that brings in a lot of overseas income already had to start rationing health care services 15 years ago (if you're going blind, you can only get treatment in 1 eye) how do you think we can even begin to afford such a thing here?

The system of limited socialized medicine we have today in this country (and I'm just talking about Medicare) costs $556 BILLION dollars a year and climbing. That's more than then entire federal budget was ten years ago. It's growing fast as the boomer population ages. That level of spending increase is simply not sustainable.

It's utterly simple, basic math. There isn't enough money to provide "universal health care" to everyone.

427
12-01-2012, 10:24
I've heard it before.


So explain the math you boasting about. Why can't the U.S. have universal health care liked the rest of the civilized world?

Because we are 16 trillion in debt and running 1.5 trillion in deficit spending every year. Can you not comprehend that we can't pay for the entitlements we have now much less universal health care? There's not enough money to pay for it all even if you tax everybody at 100%.

certifiedfunds
12-01-2012, 10:31
Because we are 16 trillion in debt and running 1.5 trillion in deficit spending every year. Can you not comprehend that we can't pay for the entitlements we have now much less universal health care? There's not enough money to pay for it all even if you tax everybody at 100%.

He's a statistics professor sir. I can assure you that big scary RED numbers don't frighten him.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

427
12-01-2012, 10:37
He's a statistics professor sir. I can assure you that big scary RED numbers don't frighten him.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

If that's true, he should be able look at the numbers to do basic math.

While I'm no mathlete, it's obvious to me that the spending we have now, not mentioning the future spending of universal healthcare, is unsustainable.

Detectorist
12-01-2012, 10:52
I don't know the answer but right now , the US spends more on health care, per capita, than any other country in the world. That is significant.

How do we lower health care costs? For one, we also have the highest paid medical professionals in the world. We also have one of the fattest populations in the world with a diabetes crises.

You combine that with a vary large unemployable group of folks who, generation after generation, has decided to do the best to live off the government, it makes for scary numbers.

We also have an insane number of legal and illegal immigrants, and their families. Most come from poor countries with terrible health care and we must treat them as legal citizens in emergency care..

So, what's the solution?

certifiedfunds
12-01-2012, 10:54
I don't know the answer but tight now , the US spends more on health care, per capita, than any other country in the world. That is significant.

How do we lower health care costs? For one, we also have the highest paid medical professionals in the world. We also have one of the fattest populations in the world with a diabetes crises.

You combine that with a vary large unemployable group of folks who, generation after generation, has decided to do the best to live off the government, it makes for scary numbers.

We also have an insane number of legal and illegal immigrants, and their families. Most come from poor countries with terrible health care and we must treat them as legal citizens in emergency care..

So, what's the solution?

Put a stop to the inflation. Get the government out of the market. End Medicare.

Problem solved.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

GRD67
12-01-2012, 11:21
If they do indeed have a cure, then by staying silent, by failing to share their cure with the world, they allowed people to die. If Hen Sen Chin was able to cure cancer, and he had shared his secret 20 years ago, then my dad wouldn't be dying right now.

Sorry devildog but I don't know how to isolate a quote, I wasn't brought up with computers. I'm very sorry to hear about your father, I'll pray for him and you and your family for strength and peace during this terrible time you are going through.

God bless,
Gary

DanaT
12-01-2012, 11:41
He's a statistics professor sir.

Somehow I question that. His basic math abilities do not seems to indicate that he can do basic accounting type arithmetic let alone do any calculus based mathematics.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 11:43
If they do indeed have a cure, then by staying silent, by failing to share their cure with the world, they allowed people to die. If Hen Sen Chin was able to cure cancer, and he had shared his secret 20 years ago, then my dad wouldn't be dying right now.

Sorry devildog but I don't know how to isolate a quote, I wasn't brought up with computers. I'm very sorry to hear about your father, I'll pray for him and you and your family for strength and peace during this terrible time you are going through.

God bless,
Gary

My father is also dying of cancer, he was diagnosed about a month before DD's father.

If these two people have a cure to cancer and they spent their lives keeping it to themselves, would I be wrong to say they allowed my father to die an early death?

I can not imagine any human having the ability to change the world in such a positive way keep from doing it. I am, without a doubt, as profit driven as anyone who posts here. I tell clients who need my services no all the time, but if could cure cancer, I would GIVE it to every major medical research facility in the world without a second thought.

AKR
12-01-2012, 11:45
I went to see a surgeon for some minor surgery. He warned me that success wasn't 100%. When the results were not as we had hoped, he repeated the procedure for free. (I mean no charges whatsoever.) It worked the second time, and has held up for about 10 years now.

The next time I needed surgery, I went back to this surgeon. And I had great results. And anytime I can, I recommend this surgeon to friends and family. My guess is the repeat business more than covers the "warranty" fix. And it does a lot to create a trusting relationship.

I respect the OPs understanding that a mistake was made and should be forgiven. Surgery is not an exact science.

capnjim01
12-01-2012, 13:36
If he was so good, why's he dead? :dunno:

BEAT ME TO IT.:rofl::rofl::rofl: i ALMOST FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR LAUGHING. Excuse the caps that is funny still laughing




PS dont mess with the RABBI sonetimes he can be annoying but most of the time he's right

JayAK
12-01-2012, 15:02
You have a recourse available now, just open the yellow pages to Attorney. There will be 100s willing to listen.

:agree:

Lonestar 48
12-01-2012, 15:35
:agree:

It happened in June of 2010; in Texas malpractice suits have to be filed within 2 years of the occurrence. Really didn't consider or want to take that course of action.

RayB
12-01-2012, 15:47
I'll paraphrase two greats.

First, Rodney Dangerfield...

So I said to my doctor, "Something's wrong! I get up in the morning, I look in the mirror and I want to throw up; what's wrong with me?"

He said, "I don't know, but your eyesight is perfect!"

buddabing!

Anyway my doctor referred me to a psychiatrist, I told him my life's story, and I asked, "What do you think?"

He said, "I think you're crazy!"

I said, "If you don't mind, I'd like another opinion!"

He said, "Okay, you're ugly too!"

Henny Youngman...

So, I went to see my doctor.

He said, "You have three months to live!"

Then he gave me the bill...

I said, "I can't pay this!"

So he gave me another three months...

buddaboom!

--Ray

GRD67
12-01-2012, 22:07
My father is also dying of cancer, he was diagnosed about a month before DD's father.

If these two people have a cure to cancer and they spent their lives keeping it to themselves, would I be wrong to say they allowed my father to die an early death?

I can not imagine any human having the ability to change the world in such a positive way keep from doing it. I am, without a doubt, as profit driven as anyone who posts here. I tell clients who need my services no all the time, but if could cure cancer, I would GIVE it to every major medical research facility in the world without a second thought.

Hen Sen Chin never kept anything a secret, he held classes at the Univ. of Wash. extension program, evening classes. If you want PM me feel free or contact Julie on the link I gave earlier. If your father already died I'm sorry for your loss.

certifiedfunds
12-01-2012, 22:15
It happened in June of 2010; in Texas malpractice suits have to be filed within 2 years of the occurrence. Really didn't consider or want to take that course of action.

What makes you think it was malpractice?

NeverMore1701
12-01-2012, 23:52
What makes you think it was malpractice?

And what changed your mind over two years after the event?

jbotstein1
12-02-2012, 02:54
I don't have the patience to read this entire thread, but has anyone brought up informed consent? There are risks and benefits to every treatment/procedure a physician performs. These should be explained to the patient and a paper should be signed by the patient stating their understanding and acceptance of the risks and benefits. Mistakes can and will continue to happen in medicine. I am sure that before you consented to have your heart catheterization, you signed a form that said you are aware that there is a small chance that your procedure might have complications such as infection, bleeding, or problems with anesthesia. Your docotr probably does hundreds of caths a year, and you may be one of the few in which he had a complication. It's unfortunate, but until we reach 100% success rate with these things, there will always be the exceptions.

Obviously to these people, it seems like a huge deal, but when looking at percentages it is exceedingly rare to have such serious complications occur, otherwise the procedure would not be considered standard of care. Not to mention, if you needed this procedure you were likely knocking on death's door anyways.

Malpractice is when a physician is negligent or does not provide the standard of care for a patient and something goes awry. That is not what happened here from what I can tell. And, if you can't tell, I don't think there should be a warranty on doctors services.

Lonestar 48
12-02-2012, 06:58
What makes you think it was malpractice?

I don't think it was malpractice; I think it was a mistake. Several people mentioned lawsuits and lawyers; I made it clear that I never wanted to pursue that avenue, but in answer to the suggestions, I pointed out the Texas law regarding time limitations.

Lonestar 48
12-02-2012, 07:01
And what changed your mind over two years after the event?

Nothing changed my mind. I didn't want to sue then, don't want to sue now. My question was specifically about who should foot the bill after a mistake was made. Easier way to look at it is if you take your car to the shop for an oil change and it falls off the lift. In the world of auto mechanics, they pay for the repairs. In the world of medicine, the patient pays for the oil change and the damages caused by the car falling off the lift. I'm just thinking that maybe the doc and/or hospital could have not charged me and the insurance company to fix their mistake. Does that make any sense?

Lonestar 48
12-02-2012, 07:03
I don't have the patience to read this entire thread, but has anyone brought up informed consent? There are risks and benefits to every treatment/procedure a physician performs. These should be explained to the patient and a paper should be signed by the patient stating their understanding and acceptance of the risks and benefits. Mistakes can and will continue to happen in medicine. I am sure that before you consented to have your heart catheterization, you signed a form that said you are aware that there is a small chance that your procedure might have complications such as infection, bleeding, or problems with anesthesia. Your docotr probably does hundreds of caths a year, and you may be one of the few in which he had a complication. It's unfortunate, but until we reach 100% success rate with these things, there will always be the exceptions.

Obviously to these people, it seems like a huge deal, but when looking at percentages it is exceedingly rare to have such serious complications occur, otherwise the procedure would not be considered standard of care. Not to mention, if you needed this procedure you were likely knocking on death's door anyways.

Malpractice is when a physician is negligent or does not provide the standard of care for a patient and something goes awry. That is not what happened here from what I can tell. And, if you can't tell, I don't think there should be a warranty on doctors services.

I did sign an informed consent form. That pertains to liability and my rights to sue. If you find the patience, read through at least my responses and you will see that I never wanted that option, so the informed consent was fine. See the above response to Nevermore for an easier to understand analogy.

certifiedfunds
12-02-2012, 07:22
I don't think it was malpractice; I think it was a mistake. Several people mentioned lawsuits and lawyers; I made it clear that I never wanted to pursue that avenue, but in answer to the suggestions, I pointed out the Texas law regarding time limitations.

Gotcha. Too many people think that a mistake or even simply a bad outcome = malpractice. If the cardiologist followed standard procedure and either the artery severed or even if he sneezed and slipped and severed the artery, it isn't malpractice.

Lonestar 48
12-02-2012, 07:29
Gotcha. Too many people think that a mistake or even simply a bad outcome = malpractice. If the cardiologist followed standard procedure and either the artery severed or even if he sneezed and slipped and severed the artery, it isn't malpractice.

Yep; malpractice is me trying to sing or play an instrument!

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 09:14
A lot of things have a warranty or a money back guarantee; why not one for doctor's services?

A couple of years ago, I had a heart attack while I was working out. The doctor put a stent in my heart. The next weekend, I was working out again, with the doctor's blessing, and I had another heart attack. Turns out the stent was messed up. A different doc went in to fix that one. The original doc saw what the second doc did and wanted to fix his mistakes. He accidentally severed an artery which led to open heart surgery and a bypass. The bypass failed which led to another heart attack, which led to some more work.

It all ended up costing a lot of money, which between me and the insurance company was all paid. Friends wanted me to sue but I am of the nature that folks make mistakes. Lately though, I have been thinking that between the docs and the hospital, I, and my insurance company shouldn't have had to pay for their services after the first stent. Like it should have been on them to pay for their mistakes.

Anyone else feel this way or have a similar experience?

The problem with most states is that they won't allow a lawsuit until you hire an expert witness to say that the problems were caused by the doctor's actions and that they were the proximate cause of the damage.

Do I think they should have insurance to pay for you..yes. But sometimes they do have incidents that cause problems. But there should be no errors by doctors or courts because these affect people with harm.

Sorry to hear about your ticker. Hope it is all ok now.

certifiedfunds
12-02-2012, 09:17
The problem with most states is that they won't allow a lawsuit until you hire an expert witness to say that the problems were caused by the doctor's actions and that they were the proximate cause of the damage.

Do I think they should have insurance to pay for you..yes. But sometimes they do have incidents that cause problems. But there should be no errors by doctors or courts because these affect people with harm.

Sorry to hear about your ticker. Hope it is all ok now.

You have to be kidding.

Darkangel1846
12-02-2012, 10:22
A lot of things have a warranty or a money back guarantee; why not one for doctor's services?

A couple of years ago, I had a heart attack while I was working out. The doctor put a stent in my heart. The next weekend, I was working out again, with the doctor's blessing, and I had another heart attack. Turns out the stent was messed up. A different doc went in to fix that one. The original doc saw what the second doc did and wanted to fix his mistakes. He accidentally severed an artery which led to open heart surgery and a bypass. The bypass failed which led to another heart attack, which led to some more work.

It all ended up costing a lot of money, which between me and the insurance company was all paid. Friends wanted me to sue but I am of the nature that folks make mistakes. Lately though, I have been thinking that between the docs and the hospital, I, and my insurance company shouldn't have had to pay for their services after the first stent. Like it should have been on them to pay for their mistakes.

Anyone else feel this way or have a similar experience?

Yeah, warranty, just because you are just like a car engin.:rofl:
what a stupid post! typical leftist attitude its everyone elses fault because your body is a POS! Get a life loser!:wavey:
if you don't like the outcome then get a lawyer, after all its the american way.

Lonestar 48
12-02-2012, 10:42
Yeah, warranty, just because you are just like a car engin.:rofl:
what a stupid post! typical leftist attitude its everyone elses fault because your body is a POS! Get a life loser!:wavey:
if you don't like the outcome then get a lawyer, after all its the american way.

Did you read any of my replies, or anyone else's? I don't know if you're kidding or if you're some little pansy hiding behind some cute little waving smileys. Oh, and I see you're in Oregon; they don't even have conservative in the dictionary out in that faggy little state.:wavey::wavey::wavey:

sputnik767
12-02-2012, 11:32
But there should be no errors by doctors or courts because these affect people with harm.



Huh... So please tell me how you plan to take the human factor out of the equation.

Let me explain: every procedure, every medication has inherent risks involved. If we are talking about surgery, nobody's anatomy is exactly the same. What may be a relatively simple procedure on one person, could turn out to be extremely complex on somebody else due to their specific anatomy or pathology. And when you sign the paper that states that you understand the procedure, the alternatives, and the risks, you are giving informed consent to the procedure. And while humans are performing the surgery, there will always be the potential for mistakes. If you want to avoid mistakes, don't get surgery. But let's see how long you last with a gall stone stuck in your common bile duct, or an inflamed, gangrenous gall bladder without surgery. There is a risk vs benefit ratio for every procedure, which is why there are specific indications for every surgery. Contrary to what some people believe, surgeons are not recommending surgery to everyone as a means of padding their pockets. Thousands of cases are reviewed every years, and new recommendations come out on a regular basis for everything that doctors do. Surgery is never offered to a patient unless they are a clear candidate for surgery.

JayAK
12-02-2012, 14:09
It happened in June of 2010; in Texas malpractice suits have to be filed within 2 years of the occurrence. Really didn't consider or want to take that course of action.

Sorry your original post did not specify a date....

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 18:46
Huh... So please tell me how you plan to take the human factor out of the equation.

Let me explain: every procedure, every medication has inherent risks involved. If we are talking about surgery, nobody's anatomy is exactly the same. What may be a relatively simple procedure on one person, could turn out to be extremely complex on somebody else due to their specific anatomy or pathology. And when you sign the paper that states that you understand the procedure, the alternatives, and the risks, you are giving informed consent to the procedure. And while humans are performing the surgery, there will always be the potential for mistakes. If you want to avoid mistakes, don't get surgery. But let's see how long you last with a gall stone stuck in your common bile duct, or an inflamed, gangrenous gall bladder without surgery. There is a risk vs benefit ratio for every procedure, which is why there are specific indications for every surgery. Contrary to what some people believe, surgeons are not recommending surgery to everyone as a means of padding their pockets. Thousands of cases are reviewed every years, and new recommendations come out on a regular basis for everything that doctors do. Surgery is never offered to a patient unless they are a clear candidate for surgery.

If the doctor knows that there is an inherent risk of something happening and they don't tell the patient then they should be relieved of license and auto pay the victim at least one million dollars. I have been there and know what I am talking about.:upeyes:

I know about the "human equation" and I know about courts etc too. If a cop lies and the victim can prove not by witness but black and white evidence that the cop lied then the cop should at the least lose his testicles. That would straighten them out right quick. :rofl:Of a judge issues a bench warrant because the person did not show up and they were not notified of the date then the prosecutor and the judge should be placed in a jail cell for the entire amount of time that the victim was in the cell. I think that would help too.

The problem in most things is that there is no problem until it happens to "YOU". :whistling:

Now sometimes the doctors truly have problems because of the person having serious issues that are not known etc and those are mostly unforeseen.

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 18:49
You have to be kidding.

Let's say a cop lies and an innocent man is placed in a jail cell..because of error...should he/she not be allowed to respond with violence? :whistling: If a man has surgery and the doctor cuts off a man's ***** shouldn't he be able to respond with violence? :shocked: That was on the news...hurts just thinking about it.

I am saying that these two places are where there are lots of errors that should not happen...but the world is not perfect at all.

certifiedfunds
12-02-2012, 18:55
Let's say a cop lies and an innocent man is placed in a jail cell..because of error...should he/she not be allowed to respond with violence? :whistling: If a man has surgery and the doctor cuts off a man's ***** shouldn't he be able to respond with violence? :shocked: That was on the news...hurts just thinking about it.

I am saying that these two places are where there are lots of errors that should not happen...but the world is not perfect at all.

A lying cop is willful injury. Not an "error". Get your story straight.

certifiedfunds
12-02-2012, 18:56
If the doctor knows that there is an inherent risk of something happening and they don't tell the patient then they should be relieved of license and auto pay the victim at least one million dollars. I have been there and know what I am talking about.:upeyes:

I know about the "human equation" and I know about courts etc too. If a cop lies and the victim can prove not by witness but black and white evidence that the cop lied then the cop should at the least lose his testicles. That would straighten them out right quick. :rofl:Of a judge issues a bench warrant because the person did not show up and they were not notified of the date then the prosecutor and the judge should be placed in a jail cell for the entire amount of time that the victim was in the cell. I think that would help too.

The problem in most things is that there is no problem until it happens to "YOU". :whistling:

Now sometimes the doctors truly have problems because of the person having serious issues that are not known etc and those are mostly unforeseen.

You aren't right in the head.

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 19:38
A lying cop is willful injury. Not an "error". Get your story straight.

Well, cops say that it was an error even if the cop lied through his teeth. :whistling: Now in some states lying is a death penalty. :faint:

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 19:38
You aren't right in the head.

Are you saying you don't like my response? :whistling:

certifiedfunds
12-02-2012, 19:48
Are you saying you don't like my response? :whistling:

No, it isn't that. You have a warped thought process. I don't think you're quite right mentally. You are trying to compare a bad surgical outcome with malice.

Malpractice is when a doctor acts negligently and/or strays from standard of care. It is different from a mistake or an accident. You can't seem to get your head around this.

I don't know of a single surgeon that will do surgery without consent forms signed, nor a facility that will allow him to operate without them signed. It doesn't mean that the doctor is off the hook for malpractice, it means that the patient has been advised of the risks.

In the case of the OP, without those forms signed, the doctor wouldn't have been able to crack his chest and save his life.

sputnik767
12-02-2012, 21:40
If the doctor knows that there is an inherent risk of something happening and they don't tell the patient then they should be relieved of license and auto pay the victim at least one million dollars. I have been there and know what I am talking about.:upeyes:



Somehow I don't think you do. After all, you are the guy who made a thread to complain about how much it cost when you went to the ER for what you considered to be a simple contact lens removal. You may think you know, but your claims are opinions, and have generally been wrong. As Certified already said, a mistake does not equal malice or malpractice. The definition of malpractice is "Medical malpractice is professional negligence by act or omission by a health care provider in which the treatment provided falls below the accepted standard of practice in the medical community and causes injury or death to the patient." So, why don't you tell me what the inherent risk was that the doctor didn't tell you about, and then tell me what the doctor did tell you.

Secondly, where are you pulling this arbitrary "autopay the victim at least 1 million dollars from?"

I have a feeling that in your situation, the doctor followed all of the guidelines to obtain informed consent from you, and informed you of the potential complications of the procedure.

These are the things that need to be discussed:

The patient's diagnosis, if known

The nature and purpose of a proposed treatment or procedure;

The risks and benefits of a proposed treatment or procedure;

Alternatives (regardless of their cost or the extent to which the treatment options are covered by health insurance);

The risks and benefits of the alternative treatment or procedure; and

The risks and benefits of not receiving or undergoing a treatment or procedure.

Did your doctor address these things?

For the record, it is impossible to address all of the possible risks and complications to the procedure.

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 22:09
No, it isn't that. You have a warped thought process. I don't think you're quite right mentally. You are trying to compare a bad surgical outcome with malice.

Malpractice is when a doctor acts negligently and/or strays from standard of care. It is different from a mistake or an accident. You can't seem to get your head around this.

I don't know of a single surgeon that will do surgery without consent forms signed, nor a facility that will allow him to operate without them signed. It doesn't mean that the doctor is off the hook for malpractice, it means that the patient has been advised of the risks.

In the case of the OP, without those forms signed, the doctor wouldn't have been able to crack his chest and save his life.

I understand what you are saying but in my case when the lasik surgeon had me sign the forms I was never told about "ectasia". Therefore, he is not cover3ed but under most state laws they have you get an expert to say that the doctor's actions or inactions were not done correctly pursuant to standard procedure etc. This is just nonsense because it binds victims to arbitration in most cases. There should be a reasonable decision and go from there. Now I agree about the op and sometimes poop happens. My neighbor had a bad colon exam but he was not clean inside and was contributorily negligent.

As far as a cop lying the courts and the system never want to admit that the cop lied. :whistling: What gets me in leo involved items is that they pay a person off whi was beaten but committed a wrong and the guy that was falsely arrested does not get anything. Seems wrong to me.

As far as the op..I don't see him having a case because they would say that he had other things going wrong and the courts treat doctors like gods. :faint:

JuneyBooney
12-02-2012, 22:14
Somehow I don't think you do. After all, you are the guy who made a thread to complain about how much it cost when you went to the ER for what you considered to be a simple contact lens removal. You may think you know, but your claims are opinions, and have generally been wrong. As Certified already said, a mistake does not equal malice or malpractice. The definition of malpractice is "Medical malpractice is professional negligence by act or omission by a health care provider in which the treatment provided falls below the accepted standard of practice in the medical community and causes injury or death to the patient." So, why don't you tell me what the inherent risk was that the doctor didn't tell you about, and then tell me what the doctor did tell you.

Secondly, where are you pulling this arbitrary "autopay the victim at least 1 million dollars from?"

I have a feeling that in your situation, the doctor followed all of the guidelines to obtain informed consent from you, and informed you of the potential complications of the procedure.

These are the things that need to be discussed:

The patient's diagnosis, if known

The nature and purpose of a proposed treatment or procedure;

The risks and benefits of a proposed treatment or procedure;

Alternatives (regardless of their cost or the extent to which the treatment options are covered by health insurance);

The risks and benefits of the alternative treatment or procedure; and

The risks and benefits of not receiving or undergoing a treatment or procedure.

Did your doctor address these things?

For the record, it is impossible to address all of the possible risks and complications to the procedure.

I agree about what malpractice is and in my opinion a doctor should be able to be sued for negligence and gross negligence without throwing "malpractice" in the case.

I was never told about "ectasia" and if I had known I would have never done the procedure. If a doctor knows about a potential risk and does not tell you then it is fraud. But like I say, everything is fine until it happens to you. :whistling: I know because that is how I used to think too. :faint:

Would you not agree that if a doctor fails to tell you something that he is grossly negligent and that he should be liable unto the victim for damages?

certifiedfunds
12-02-2012, 23:14
I understand what you are saying but in my case when the lasik surgeon had me sign the forms I was never told about "ectasia". Therefore, he is not cover3ed but under most state laws they have you get an expert to say that the doctor's actions or inactions were not done correctly pursuant to standard procedure etc. This is just nonsense because it binds victims to arbitration in most cases. There should be a reasonable decision and go from there. Now I agree about the op and sometimes poop happens. My neighbor had a bad colon exam but he was not clean inside and was contributorily negligent.



Negligence *IS* malpractice. :faint:

Ectasia is a widely known complication of lasik surgery. I had lasik too. I know someone who took his own life because of a lasik complication. I know someone else who was legally blinded.

Was the doctor negligent in your surgery? Did he stray from standard of care? If not, you had a complication. A bad outcome.

In the case of the person I know, the surgeon was negligent. He programmed the wrong settings into the laser. Malpractice.

As far as a cop lying the courts and the system never want to admit that the cop lied. :whistling: What gets me in leo involved items is that they pay a person off whi was beaten but committed a wrong and the guy that was falsely arrested does not get anything. Seems wrong to me.

As far as the op..I don't see him having a case because they would say that he had other things going wrong and the courts treat doctors like gods. :faint:

You still don't get it. A cop lying and experiencing a known surgical complication are not the same thing. You're hung up on this but you're wrong no matter how you feel about it. You really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Just because you have a bad outcome does not mean someone else is liable.

Cavalry Doc
12-03-2012, 06:25
You really cannot guarantee anything with any medical procedure other than that the patient will either get better, worse, or stay the same. You can also guarantee that all patients will eventually die.

All patients should be briefed on the risks and benefits of a procedure, the potential complications, and make an informed decision on whether to proceed or not. Even if done correctly, all procedures and medications carry a risk of an adverse event.

In the OP's case, it should be looked at, and if anything was done outside the standard of care, he should have a claim. If everything was done to standard, and complications ensued anyway, AND if he was informed that the complications were possible, there isn't much of a case.


World Death Rate Holding Steady At 100 Percent (http://www.theonion.com/articles/world-death-rate-holding-steady-at-100-percent,1670/)

Although that is a joke, there is a lot of truth in the article.

I hope the OP recovers and wish him all the best.

devildog2067
12-03-2012, 07:43
If the doctor knows that there is an inherent risk of something happening and they don't tell the patient then they should be relieved of license and auto pay the victim at least one million dollars.

You just make this stuff up, don't you?

Why not a billion dollars? :upeyes:

JuneyBooney
12-03-2012, 07:57
You really cannot guarantee anything with any medical procedure other than that the patient will either get better, worse, or stay the same. You can also guarantee that all patients will eventually die.

All patients should be briefed on the risks and benefits of a procedure, the potential complications, and make an informed decision on whether to proceed or not. Even if done correctly, all procedures and medications carry a risk of an adverse event.

In the OP's case, it should be looked at, and if anything was done outside the standard of care, he should have a claim. If everything was done to standard, and complications ensued anyway, AND if he was informed that the complications were possible, there isn't much of a case.


World Death Rate Holding Steady At 100 Percent (http://www.theonion.com/articles/world-death-rate-holding-steady-at-100-percent,1670/)

Although that is a joke, there is a lot of truth in the article.

I hope the OP recovers and wish him all the best.

I fully agree. People should be forewarned about the possibilities and be able to make a truly informed decision. The ops case will require a medical expert to review the case beforehand and then file with the health care claims office of the state he is in and see if their arbitration panel says the doctor was wrong. But if the stent was defective that is product liability and not necessarily the doctor's fault.

JuneyBooney
12-03-2012, 07:58
You just make this stuff up, don't you?

Why not a billion dollars? :upeyes:

A billion would be nice and a million is not really enough. In the Dc area it takes at least sixty k to live each year and moe like 80 to live ok but not wealthy. Look at that for twenty years and then tell me what you think. :whistling:

JuneyBooney
12-03-2012, 08:08
Negligence *IS* malpractice. :faint:

Ectasia is a widely known complication of lasik surgery. I had lasik too. I know someone who took his own life because of a lasik complication. I know someone else who was legally blinded.

That is just not true. Most people don't even know about ectasia and my internist had no idea what it was with the eye and believed it could go away. Ectasia is man made..ie surgeon and not "dry eyes" etc.

Was the doctor negligent in your surgery? Did he stray from standard of care? If not, you had a complication. A bad outcome.

In the case of the person I know, the surgeon was negligent. He programmed the wrong settings into the laser. Malpractice.



You still don't get it. A cop lying and experiencing a known surgical complication are not the same thing.

I agree But if the doctor knew and didn't tell the patient then he should have his eyes blinded too. Or a million or two dollars is fine.

You're hung up on this but you're wrong no matter how you feel about it. You really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Just because you have a bad outcome does not mean someone else is liable.

You are wrong about bad outcomes. If a doctor makes that cut too deep and your eye bulges he/she does owe you money. Read about cops who have killed themselves. Lawyers have killed themselves too from ectasia and I can tell you that I could not read the teleprompter anymore so I pray that specialists can help me but my income went down to almost nothing because of the ectasia. We all think it is great until it happens to us. What I am saying is that you should be able to sue for regular gross negligence for the other actions by a doctor not directly related to the surgical incident. But we need to lower the costs somehow and make it fair and equitable to the injured parties.

certifiedfunds
12-03-2012, 08:19
You are wrong about bad outcomes. If a doctor makes that cut too deep and your eye bulges he/she does owe you money. Read about cops who have killed themselves. Lawyers have killed themselves too from ectasia and I can tell you that I could not read the teleprompter anymore so I pray that specialists can help me but my income went down to almost nothing because of the ectasia. We all think it is great until it happens to us. What I am saying is that you should be able to sue for regular gross negligence for the other actions by a doctor not directly related to the surgical incident. But we need to lower the costs somehow and make it fair and equitable to the injured parties.

No. You're clueless

JuneyBooney
12-03-2012, 09:25
[QUOTE=certifiedfunds;19695093]
:rofl:If you say so.

stooxie
12-03-2012, 10:13
Here is the problem with all of that...people with liberal fiscal tendencies make one fatal mistake...they simply dont understand that sometimes the bad thing(s) happen. You cant solve every problem....and in trying to do so, sometimes you can make it far worse.

Probably one of the best summations I have ever seen regarding this kind of mindset.

The notion that nothing bad should ever befall anyone is driven into new generations by the standard practice starting from elementary school. No consequences. Just make someone else pay. Just get someone else to do it. Someone will make you feel better.

The expectation that we are guaranteed a good outcome whether after surgery, after college or after eating a burger, as if it is a social right, or we are entitled to compensation.

I wish there were a cure for that cancer.

-Stooxie

sputnik767
12-03-2012, 18:33
You just make this stuff up, don't you?

Why not a billion dollars? :upeyes:

Why not 100 billion dollars?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Hd4PNP31TxI/R0OKZDk4d2I/AAAAAAAAALU/oARV001zTYQ/s1600/dr.evil