Questions on TV show death. When is it murder? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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larry_minn
11-29-2012, 16:46
The other night I saw first 10 min of a show. Thought they made a interresting situation. So would like to get some others opinions.

Late at night, couple sleeping in apt in 20+ story building. Burgler broke in from balcony. Apt owner hears and see burgler climbing up rope.(escaping)

At this point only property taken, theif escaping up rope.

So he grabs rope/jerks and burgler slides down/hits homeowner. Then slides down to try to get on balcony below/I assume escape thru next apt. So still nobody hurt/items gone, MAYBE you could argue threat to residents in apts below you?

The apt owner is upset (property stolen, and minor bruise that was more accident then assult) sees a pruning shears and cuts rope. Burglar falls @18 stories to death.

What charges should homeowner face?

IF we remove possibility of residents on floors below possibly being in danger how is cutting rope any different then shooting in back?

Most important. If that had been you on ledge. Could you have stopped yourself from grabbing rope as you saw crook excape with your money?

Glock20 10mm
11-29-2012, 17:34
That would be murder with malice. And had it been me on the ledge he would have been looking at the business end of my 12GA and told to get his ass back on my patio where I could keep his ass under the barrel while I call the po-po to come do their job.

Phaze5ive
11-29-2012, 17:48
That would be murder with malice. And had it been me on the ledge he would have been looking at the business end of my 12GA and told to get his ass back on my patio where I could keep his ass under the barrel while I call the po-po to come do their job.

And if he calls your bluff, what would you do then?

ray9898
11-29-2012, 17:50
Murder....no threat of death or GBH.

larry_minn
11-29-2012, 17:51
That would be murder with malice. And had it been me on the ledge he would have been looking at the business end of my 12GA and told to get his ass back on my patio where I could keep his ass under the barrel while I call the po-po to come do their job.

So you have guy on rope above you. You whip out 12 Guage and order him down. He keeps climbing. Now what?

I just thought it was a common situation but presented in a unique way.

Glock20 10mm
11-29-2012, 18:30
And if he calls your bluff, what would you do then?

Call him a lot of really nasty names... otherwise since I don't want to go to prison go about calming my nerves down and strategizing a better defense for that kind of invasion.

Dennis in MA
11-29-2012, 18:57
Charged with stupidity. Always untie the rope, not cut it.

"the knot slipped y'onnah."

Yew and yer F'in rewp!

Charlie Bronson always had rewp!

Booker
11-29-2012, 19:22
If the bad guy landed on someones car, then vandalism. Otherwise, No Charges!

Angry Fist
11-29-2012, 19:24
Light the rope on fire?

Sam Spade
11-29-2012, 19:24
Manslaughter. Unlawful killing without premeditation and in the heat of passion.

Zombiegargoyle
11-29-2012, 19:28
When the crook fell on to the ledge, the home owner should have put 17 9mm's into the crook, placed a "clean" hunting knife in his hand and called the cops.

TBO
11-29-2012, 19:33
Littering.

Sent from the toe of my jack boot using Tapatalk 2

Kilrain
11-29-2012, 20:00
Manslaughter. Unlawful killing without premeditation and in the heat of passion.

This or some form of it would likely apply in California I reckon'.

Huaco Kid
11-29-2012, 20:13
Whistle loudly so thief looks up and sees you slowly cutting through the rope with your trusty pocket knife.

Enjoy the show, as thief starts thickly smoking and possibly combusts, as he rapidly descends the rope from 18 stories up.

singularity35
11-29-2012, 20:55
Just keep pulling the rope up as the burglar climbs down so the he never reaches the next apt...:tongueout:

ChiefWPD
11-29-2012, 22:33
Depends on the jurisdiction. In NY State you may use deadly physical force to terminate the burglary of an occupied dwelling at night. At least according to my failing memory of the Penal Law....

DoubleWide
11-29-2012, 22:37
It's all a question of location.

Did that state have a castle law that allowed protection of property as justification for lethal force?

Hamilton Burger
11-29-2012, 23:50
Depends on the jurisdiction. In NY State you may use deadly physical force to terminate the burglary of an occupied dwelling at night. At least according to my failing memory of the Penal Law....

Sounds like probably cause to me :thumbsup:

Critias
11-30-2012, 01:49
When the crook fell on to the ledge, the home owner should have put 17 9mm's into the crook, placed a "clean" hunting knife in his hand and called the cops.
Yeah, what could go wrong?

Inebriated
11-30-2012, 02:57
Withdrawal means the situation is over, and the burglar isn't a threat anymore. Self defense ceases to exist, because there wasn't anything for you to defend yourself from. So when the homeowner went outside, the burglar was already retreating, meaning he wasn't a threat. The homeowner pulling him back inside is initiating another confrontation, so now neither of them are in the right. When the burglar is trying to get away, and the homeowner cuts the rope, the homeowner is committing murder. There was nothing to defend himself from, and the burglar had tried to retreat twice.

Is it to be expected (dying while breaking into another person's home)? Certainly. Is it right to kill a person simply for having been in your home? NO! Unless they've got a family member in their arms as they're leaving, your job is not to follow than and pursue the confrontation.

If it were me in the situation, I would call 911, and go out on the balcony with my 19. I'd yell for the burglar to stay put until police arrived, and hope he listened. If he keeps going to get away, fine... there's only so many places a person can go when scaling a building. If he comes at me, THEN deadly force can be justified.

Mrs.Cicero
11-30-2012, 06:38
Depends on the jurisdiction. In NY State you may use deadly physical force to terminate the burglary of an occupied dwelling at night. At least according to my failing memory of the Penal Law....

Well that should peeve the atheist anti-church/state crowd, since it is Biblical law.
:tongueout:
I never have understood why the Bible said it was okay to kill a burgler at night, but not in the daytime...

Geko45
11-30-2012, 07:00
Under Texas law, you can use lethal force to stop someone from escaping after committing a crime that lethal force would have been justified to stop. So, if it was legit to shoot them on the way in then it would be legit to shoot them on the way out. This scenario seems to fit that same criteria, yet it somehow just feels wrong. I can't quite place my finger on the significant difference, but it seems like there is one.

Thumpernator
11-30-2012, 07:17
But officer, I was only trying to take back my rope. :)

Fear Night
11-30-2012, 07:29
Interesting scenario. I see it similar to shooting them in the back as they flee. No way to justify that in the eyes of the law.

If that was me on the balcony, I would lock everything back up, and call the cops while running downstairs to warn my neighbors below me.

If he is still able to get away with my stuff, I would call my insurance company. Items can be replaced. I would then reinforce my dwelling so this scenario could never happen again.

17&27
11-30-2012, 08:48
It would be interesting to pour cooking oil down the rope and see if he could hang on after it caught up with him.

VA27
11-30-2012, 08:52
It would be interesting to pour cooking oil down the rope and see if he could hang on after it caught up with him.

Dang, beat me to it!:rofl:

larry_minn
11-30-2012, 12:55
Withdrawal means the situation is over, and the burglar isn't a threat anymore. Self defense ceases to exist, because there wasn't anything for you to defend yourself from. So when the homeowner went outside, the burglar was already retreating, meaning he wasn't a threat. The homeowner pulling him back inside is initiating another confrontation, so now neither of them are in the right. When the burglar is trying to get away, and the homeowner cuts the rope, the homeowner is committing murder. There was nothing to defend himself from, and the burglar had tried to retreat twice.

Is it to be expected (dying while breaking into another person's home)? Certainly. Is it right to kill a person simply for having been in your home? NO! Unless they've got a family member in their arms as they're leaving, your job is not to follow than and pursue the confrontation.

If it were me in the situation, I would call 911, and go out on the balcony with my 19. I'd yell for the burglar to stay put until police arrived, and hope he listened. If he keeps going to get away, fine... there's only so many places a person can go when scaling a building. If he comes at me, THEN deadly force can be justified.

I have to agree with much of what you posted. I just thought it was a unique situation. It would be dang hard NOT to grab rope, jerk it around.

bithabus
12-01-2012, 03:51
In Texas this would be a no bill

eracer
12-01-2012, 04:24
If I was a DA, I'd pursue a murder charge, and let him plea to manslaughter.

Then I'd go after the OP for gross grammatical negligence...:supergrin:

oldsoldier
12-01-2012, 05:57
Race burglar to the roof and wait on him to reach top and give him a choice. Surrender and wait on the cops or threaten to cut the rope.