75 gr. through 1:9 twist?? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Smokin45
11-30-2012, 00:57
Just picked up some TAP 75 gr. and was wondering how it would shoot through a 1:9 twist barrel? I will be using it with a Armalite AR with a 16" heavy barrel if that makes a difference..

larson1122
11-30-2012, 01:02
The only way to know for sure is to shoot it and find out. Some barrels will shoot it just fine and others wont.

Armchair Commando
11-30-2012, 01:13
My 1-8 loves 77gr Sierra Matchkings. Only way to know is to shoot it.

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faawrenchbndr
11-30-2012, 06:29
.....Only way to know is to shoot it.




:agree:

cowboy1964
11-30-2012, 07:30
I'm only shot 75gr TAP through 1:9 at 25 yards. Works ok but that distance really doesn't prove anything.

I've since decided to standardize on 1:7 twist so I can shoot 77gr Mk 262 and such.

Travclem
11-30-2012, 07:57
My 1:7 ARs love it, my best friend's 1:9 loves it, and my 700P 1:10 loves it. My 75gr Hornady OTM handloads are good out of all of our guns out to 200yds. I haven't shot them further than that on paper. I have killed a couple hogs at further distances than that so I assume they are still stable enough.

My 700p shoots cloverleaf groups at 100 and 1-1.25" at 200 with this load and according to the interwebz it's impossible due to the 1:10 twist.

I have yet to find a gun that wouldn't shoot it, but go shoot some out of yours to be sure. That's the only way to know for sure.

Matthew Courtney
11-30-2012, 08:20
More than being a rifle to rifle thing, its an environment to environment thing. Gyroscopic stability requires more rpm's in environments with more friction from the bullet passing through the air as well as higher rpm's when the center of pressure is farther forward. In less dense air, friction is less. Temperature, humidity, and low barometric pressure lessen the density of the air and allow bullets to stabilize at lower rpms.

Foxtrotx1
11-30-2012, 08:58
More than being a rifle to rifle thing, its an environment to environment thing. Gyroscopic stability requires more rpm's in environments with more friction from the bullet passing through the air as well as higher rpm's when the center of pressure is farther forward. In less dense air, friction is less. Temperature, humidity, and low barometric pressure lessen the density of the air and allow bullets to stabilize at lower rpms.

So good at 7,000 feet. Not so good at 2000?

Travclem
11-30-2012, 09:12
So good at 7,000 feet. Not so good at 2000?
That's the idea but I can tell you that mine work at 3,256 ft. (Lubbock, TX), 2,605 ft. (Post, TX) and 3605 ft. (Amarillo, TX).

Gunnut 45/454
11-30-2012, 09:17
The 75gr Horn match bullets shoot fair out of my 1:9" and Sav 1:9" good enough to use for close work. But the 75gr Amax shoots real good in my PSA 1:7" and yes you can load them to fit the Mag.:supergrin:

Steve in PA
11-30-2012, 18:36
Both my Savage 12FV and Bushmaster rifles shoot the 75gr bullets just fine. Both are 1:9 barrels.

smokin762
11-30-2012, 19:04
My Bushmaster AR has a 20Ē 1/9 barrel. It shoots Hornady 75gr Superformance at 100 yards very nicely with iron sights. I tried it with the scope and kept tight groups.

As said, you just need to try it out.

WoodenPlank
11-30-2012, 19:24
As others have said, try it and see.

Longer barrels are more likely to see good results than shorter, however. Since you asked about TAP, you might want to check out some of the lighter 62-64 grain bonded soft points, Gold Dot JHP, or the various loads out there using Barnes TSX bullets.

WinterWizard
11-30-2012, 22:21
Just picked up some TAP 75 gr. and was wondering how it would shoot through a 1:9 twist barrel? I will be using it with a Armalite AR with a 16" heavy barrel if that makes a difference..

I have wondered about this, as well. The packaging even states "1-9" twist or faster," so 1-9" should be good to go. However, there is the occasional report from shooters that their 1-9" barrel didn't stabilize this round. It does seem to be a very, very small minority, though. I bet 19 in 20 barrels with a 1-9" twist will stabilize this round just fine. But, like others have said, no way to be sure until you shoot it at about 200 yards and check for keyholes, etc...

I wonder what Hornady would say if someone with a 1-9" twist barrel contacted them to say their barrel couldn't stabilize this round? Since it's even on their package, couldn't that be false advertising or misleading? I bet they would send out some replacement rounds, maybe 60gr Tap or something similar if you made a big enough stink.

brisk21
12-01-2012, 08:46
I know a dude who just got a DPMS with a 1-9 twist. He said that the 100yd groups opened up to about 6-7 inches with 75gr. bullets. He was holding 1-2 inch groups with 55gr. ammo.

cowboy1964
12-01-2012, 14:01
I wonder what Hornady would say if someone with a 1-9" twist barrel contacted them to say their barrel couldn't stabilize this round? Since it's even on their package, couldn't that be false advertising or misleading? I bet they would send out some replacement rounds, maybe 60gr Tap or something similar if you made a big enough stink.

Possibly. OTOH, they make no claims about accuracy at distance, so...

WinterWizard
12-01-2012, 16:48
Possibly. OTOH, they make no claims about accuracy at distance, so...

Yeah, but if it's keyholing, it's obviously not stabilized, and there is physical proof by way of the paper target. If they say a 1-9" twist will stabilize this bullet and the bullet is tumbling sideways through the air from a 1-9" barrel, I believe that's a problem. Of course, there are small discrepancies from barrel to barrel. Your 1-9" may actually be a 1-8.8" or a 1-9.2", etc. That is where the problem lies likely.

jrs93accord
12-01-2012, 17:45
Typically, a 1:9 barrel is good for 55gr. to 72gr. ammo. When you get into the 75gr. and higher, 1:8 or 1:7 is the best route to take. They can stabilize the heavier round better. This is not a hard fast rule, but more of a guideline. Sometimes, it can depend on the load of the heavy round as to what kind of performance you will get in a 1:9 barrel. Personally, I have a dedicated 1:8 (18") AR (Mk12 Mod0) for shooting heavy ammo (in my case, 77gr.). Everything else is for the .55gr. - 63gr. ammo. My advice, if you want to shoot a heavy round, build an AR that is more suited for it.

Warp
12-01-2012, 19:47
Good reason to buy a proper 1:7 barrel if you ask me

smokin762
12-01-2012, 22:28
Good reason to buy a proper 1:7 barrel if you ask me

:upeyes:

Warp
12-01-2012, 22:39
:upeyes:

Many, if not most, of the more desirable bullets are 75gr or heavier. These bullet weights (well, lengths) work best with a 1:7 twist. This is a great reason to get a rifle with a 1:7 twist.

smokin762
12-01-2012, 22:51
I have wondered about this, as well. The packaging even states "1-9" twist or faster," so 1-9" should be good to go. However, there is the occasional report from shooters that their 1-9" barrel didn't stabilize this round. It does seem to be a very, very small minority, though. I bet 19 in 20 barrels with a 1-9" twist will stabilize this round just fine. But, like others have said, no way to be sure until you shoot it at about 200 yards and check for keyholes, etc...

I wonder what Hornady would say if someone with a 1-9" twist barrel contacted them to say their barrel couldn't stabilize this round? Since it's even on their package, couldn't that be false advertising or misleading? I bet they would send out some replacement rounds, maybe 60gr Tap or something similar if you made a big enough stink.


I have several boxes of Hornady Superformance Match 5.56 NATO 75 gr. BTHP. There is nothing on the box that I can see that sayís anything about what rifling to use. It just states not to use it in .223 Chambers. I checked their website and it didnít come up with anything either.

I would post a pic of one of my targets from last weekend but, I left it at work Friday. We were having this same discussion between AR owners.

smokin762
12-01-2012, 23:02
Many, if not most, of the more desirable bullets are 75gr or heavier. These bullet weights (well, lengths) work best with a 1:7 twist. This is a great reason to get a rifle with a 1:7 twist.

Some 1:9 barrels can shoot 75 gr bullets without any problems. Some canít. Some 1:7 barrels can shoot 55 gr bullets without any problems. Some canít.

I know itís true, that certain rifling was designed for certain weight or length of ammunition. Itís just not always the case. Nothing is in stone.

A person doesnít know what their firearm can and cannot do, if they donít put it through its paces. Then those tests may only be good for that particular firearm.

Warp
12-01-2012, 23:03
I know itís true, that certain rifling was designed for certain weight or length of ammunition.

For 55-77gr ammo, your best bet is still 1:7

smokin762
12-01-2012, 23:10
For 55-77gr ammo, your best bet is still 1:7


I think 55-77gr is more common with 1:7 barrels, but not exclusive.

My 20Ē Bushmaster has no problem with any of these. I have not tried anything over 62gr in my 16Ē RRA yet. I just havenít gotten around to it yet.

WoodenPlank
12-01-2012, 23:35
Some 1:9 barrels can shoot 75 gr bullets without any problems. Some canít. Some 1:7 barrels can shoot 55 gr bullets without any problems. Some canít.

I know itís true, that certain rifling was designed for certain weight or length of ammunition. Itís just not always the case. Nothing is in stone.

A person doesnít know what their firearm can and cannot do, if they donít put it through its paces. Then those tests may only be good for that particular firearm.

You also have to take into account that barrels can have slight variations in their true twist rate. That 1:9 might be 1/8.5 or 1/9.3 in actual measurement. Plus, as mentioned earlier, velocity (and therefore barrel length) play a part, too.

smokin762
12-01-2012, 23:43
You also have to take into account that barrels can have slight variations in their true twist rate. That 1:9 might be 1/8.5 or 1/9.3 in actual measurement. Plus, as mentioned earlier, velocity (and therefore barrel length) play a part, too.

Understood. As I said, it just needs to be tried. Youíll never know until you try it. :whistling:

WinterWizard
12-02-2012, 00:29
I have several boxes of Hornady Superformance Match 5.56 NATO 75 gr. BTHP. There is nothing on the box that I can see that say’s anything about what rifling to use. It just states not to use it in .223 Chambers. I checked their website and it didn’t come up with anything either.

We aren't talking about the match ammo. We're talking about the TAP rounds. Similar but not identical.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/223-remington/75-gr-bthp-tap

http://imageshack.us/a/img844/212/nokialumia710000063.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/nokialumia710000063.jpg/)

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eracer
12-02-2012, 01:17
The only way to know for sure is to shoot it and find out. Some barrels will shoot it just fine and others wont.Yep.

My 1:9 barrel eats Hornady 75g BTHP Match ammo just fine, and my 1:7 barrel loves it, but it can't shoot 55g M193 for shiz.

cowboy1964
12-02-2012, 01:48
The way I look at it is, 55 gr isn't a very good choice for anything longer distance anyway so for that you may as well be shooting heavier weights.

Perhaps 1:8 is the ideal compromise. Or perhaps we're just nit-picking.

eracer
12-02-2012, 01:56
I use M193 as practice ammo within what I consider to be the useful range of the platform - which is about 300 yards. For defensive use with the caliber beyond those ranges you need a bullet that is designed to expand at lower velocities, which to me is pointless, since much better calibers exist for engagements beyond 300 yards.

WinterWizard
12-02-2012, 02:14
The way I look at it is, 55 gr isn't a very good choice for anything longer distance anyway so for that you may as well be shooting heavier weights.

Perhaps 1:8 is the ideal compromise. Or perhaps we're just nit-picking.

I don't think we're nitpicking. 1-8" twist is probably ideal. I don't know why that isn't the standard at this point. Seems it could stabilize everything from probably 50-77 grain. Perfect for a battle rifle. I am planning on building a rifle in the next couple years. I think I will go with a 1-8" twist.

mc1911
12-02-2012, 06:35
I wonder about the fact that longer barrels and or higher velocities will stabilize heavier bullets better then lower velocities and shorter barrels.

It might be a factor in a slower twist barrel.

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 09:18
I don't think we're nitpicking. 1-8" twist is probably ideal. I don't know why that isn't the standard at this point. Seems it could stabilize everything from probably 50-77 grain. Perfect for a battle rifle. I am planning on building a rifle in the next couple years. I think I will go with a 1-8" twist.

Because 1/7 is needed to stabilize certain extra-long projectiles, such as the current use tracer. Bullet length (not weight) determines what twist is needed. That's why you generally need a 1/8 or faster to shoot the 70 grain Barnes TSX bullets, as they are much longer than a 69 grain lead-cored bullet.

Edit to add: for the average shooter, though, you are right that 1/8 is pretty much ideal. A shame so few major manufacturers are using it.

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 09:22
I wonder about the fact that longer barrels and or higher velocities will stabilize heavier bullets better then lower velocities and shorter barrels.

It might be a factor in a slower twist barrel.

Stability is a factor of rotational velocity. You get that by making the bullet spin more times in a given period. This can be done by making it turn a full rotation in a shorter amount of flight distance (faster twist) or by making the bullet fly faster over that same distance with a slightly slower twist (thereby increasing the number of revolutions over a given length of time). This doesn't mean you can use a 24" 1/12 barrel to shoot 77 grain ammo, but it does mean an 18" 1/9 twist might have a little better luck with 75 grain ammo than, say, a pinned 14.5" barrel.

smokin762
12-02-2012, 10:23
I don't think we're nitpicking. 1-8" twist is probably ideal. I don't know why that isn't the standard at this point. Seems it could stabilize everything from probably 50-77 grain. Perfect for a battle rifle. I am planning on building a rifle in the next couple years. I think I will go with a 1-8" twist.

I am not sure if 1:8 would be perfect for the military rifle but chrome lined 1:8 barrel offered in different configurations would be nice for us civilians. Maybe someday more firearm manufactures will be willing to offer such options or make them standard. :dunno:

Warp
12-02-2012, 10:28
I think most people who buy an AR don't even know what the twist rate is or how it affects anything, though.

WinterWizard
12-02-2012, 11:59
I am not sure if 1:8 would be perfect for the military rifle but chrome lined 1:8 barrel offered in different configurations would be nice for us civilians. Maybe someday more firearm manufactures will be willing to offer such options or make them standard. :dunno:

I was talking about civilian rifles. I couldn't care less about what the military is doing. They seem to care more about ridiculous rules of war and dollars and cents rather than protecting our soldiers or helping them win.

I do believe you can have too fast a twist rate. Some people with 1-7" report poor performance from lighter bullets (55gr).

cowboy1964
12-02-2012, 15:33
I do believe you can have too fast a twist rate. Some people with 1-7" report poor performance from lighter bullets (55gr).

Maybe, but I'm not that concerned since 55gr is a poor choice for longer distances anyway, especially from shorter barrels. At closer range it's not going to matter.

And again I'll say that for most people the question of twist is completely irrelevant unless they are shooting the extremes of bullets weights (i.e. < 55 gr or > 75 gr).

WinterWizard
12-02-2012, 16:08
Maybe, but I'm not that concerned since 55gr is a poor choice for longer distances anyway, especially from shorter barrels. At closer range it's not going to matter.

And again I'll say that for most people the question of twist is completely irrelevant unless they are shooting the extremes of bullets weights (i.e. < 55 gr or > 75 gr).

Unfortunately, there seems to be a shortage of quality defensive loads in the 65-70gr range - at least in retail stores, anyway. I wish Hornady made a 70gr vmax at about 2900 fps. I would stock up.

Warp
12-02-2012, 16:11
Unfortunately, there seems to be a shortage of quality defensive loads in the 65-70gr range - at least in retail stores, anyway. I wish Hornady made a 70gr vmax at about 2900 fps. I would stock up.


If you want to take advantage of many of the better loads...choose a rifle that will do well with 75-77gr loads.

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 16:19
Unfortunately, there seems to be a shortage of quality defensive loads in the 65-70gr range - at least in retail stores, anyway. I wish Hornady made a 70gr vmax at about 2900 fps. I would stock up.

There are plenty of 62 and 64 grain loads that work quite well, especially from 16" or longer barrels. TBBC, Gold Dot, and 62gr TSX all come to mind.

Matthew Courtney
12-02-2012, 20:36
The 55gr TTSX runs about 3000 fps from a 16 inch barrel. It shoots well from 1/7-1/9 and expands quickly and reliably while still penetrating deeply. I find it slightly more accurate than the bonded soft points and it has a higher BC. The downside is cost. The bullets alone cost $.60 each, but they just flat out work!

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 22:28
The 55gr TTSX runs about 3000 fps from a 16 inch barrel. It shoots well from 1/7-1/9 and expands quickly and reliably while still penetrating deeply. I find it slightly more accurate than the bonded soft points and it has a higher BC. The downside is cost. The bullets alone cost $.60 each, but they just flat out work!

I havent picked up any of the tipped variety, but the minimal testing I have done with the old Federal TSX offering has been pretty decent. I need to order more of it this week so I can really get out and play with it a bit. The mean reason I looked into switching to TSX to begin with is the low velocity floor (a weakness of the 50gr BHA load is the floor is much higher) for use with my SBR.

JPhillis
12-02-2012, 22:49
Rifling is designed for specific bullet weights here is a good article that explains it pretty well. With a 1-9 twist you are not getting the revolutions on the bullet to fully stabilize it. You my find it not grouping well or key holing at the target. No two barrels are exactly the same. 2 identical gus will shoot differently. For my Weathery 308 win I do not buy any factory ammo.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 00:52
Rifling is designed for specific bullet weights here is a good article that explains it pretty well. With a 1-9 twist you are not getting the revolutions on the bullet to fully stabilize it. You my find it not grouping well or key holing at the target. No two barrels are exactly the same. 2 identical gus will shoot differently. For my Weathery 308 win I do not buy any factory ammo.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

The warm, humid air of Florida's Gulf coast is not likely to require a higher level of gyroscopic stability than the 75gr projectile will have from a 1/9 16 inch barrel. I have no problem with up to 77 gr bullets from my 1/9 Colt or my 1/9 Bushmaster here in Lake Charles.

WinterWizard
12-03-2012, 01:22
If you want to take advantage of many of the better loads...choose a rifle that will do well with 75-77gr loads.

Gladly. Will you pay for it?

M&P15T
12-03-2012, 05:07
There's great loadings all over the 5.56MM bullet weight range.

Just pick the right bullet weight for your AR's rifling.

M&P15T
12-03-2012, 05:17
The way I look at it is, 55 gr isn't a very good choice for anything longer distance anyway so for that you may as well be shooting heavier weights.

Perhaps 1:8 is the ideal compromise. Or perhaps we're just nit-picking.

The way I look at it, 55gr. is the most cost-effective all-around cartridge for an AR. No one here is going to be shooting anyone at hundreds of yards, so why are we even concerned about rifling for heavier weight bullets?

I can understand if you're going hunting and feel the need for a heavier bullet. Other than that, folks here are worrying over bullet weights and barrel twist rates that the Military issues, which attempts to be more lethal at longer ranges and lower velocities.

This stuff doesn't mean much to civilian HD/SD.

PEC-Memphis
12-03-2012, 08:14
So good at 7,000 feet. Not so good at 2000?

Temperature plays a role here as well. Very cold temperatures can increase instability.

Warp
12-03-2012, 17:14
Gladly. Will you pay for it?

What is your budget/what did you spend on yours (wand what year)?

I fail to see how you could not acquire a rifle that does well with 75-77gr loads.

WinterWizard
12-03-2012, 19:30
What is your budget/what did you spend on yours (wand what year)?

I fail to see how you could not acquire a rifle that does well with 75-77gr loads.

Who says I don't already have one? I am commenting about the state of the current AR market and rifling twist trends. Take a chill pill, my man.

YOU suggested I buy an AR. I am not in the market for a new one at this moment. So if you want me to have one, YOU will have to buy it for me. See how that works?

Warp
12-03-2012, 19:47
Who says I don't already have one? I am commenting about the state of the current AR market and rifling twist trends. Take a chill pill, my man.

YOU suggested I buy an AR. I am not in the market for a new one at this moment. So if you want me to have one, YOU will have to buy it for me. See how that works?

Oh lord.

I'm not talking to you directly, specifically, and solely, and I am not ordering you to do anything.

Here, try this:

If 'a person' wants to take advantage of many of the better loads, 'that person' should choose a rifle that can do well with 75-77gr bullets

WinterWizard
12-03-2012, 20:41
Oh lord.

I'm not talking to you directly, specifically, and solely, and I am not ordering you to do anything.

Here, try this:

If 'a person' wants to take advantage of many of the better loads, 'that person' should choose a rifle that can do well with 75-77gr bullets

Here, try this: When I want your advice on my next AR purchase, I will ask for it.

I've already stated my next AR is going to be a build with a 1-8" twist barrel.

Warp
12-03-2012, 20:47
If 'a person' wants to take advantage of many of the better loads, 'that person' should choose a rifle that can do well with 75-77gr bullets

bigmoney890
12-03-2012, 22:23
If 'a person' wants to take advantage of many of the better loads, 'that person' should choose a rifle that can do well with 75-77gr bullets

There's no use in trying, man. He just keeps getting defensive and accusing everyone in multiple threads. Be the bigger man Warp.

WinterWizard
12-03-2012, 22:26
If 'a person' wants to take advantage of many of the better loads, 'that person' should choose a rifle that can do well with 75-77gr bullets

If 'a person' wants advice, he will ask for it. Don't try and backtrack and act like you weren't addressing me, personally.

I'm not talking to you directly, specifically, and solely

Oh, really...?

If you want to take advantage of many of the better loads...choose a rifle that will do well with 75-77gr loads.

What is your budget/what did you spend on yours (wand what year)?

I fail to see how you could not acquire a rifle that does well with 75-77gr loads.

This was all unsolicited. Don't need your advice, bro. Didn't ask for it. Don't want it.

WoodenPlank
12-03-2012, 23:38
...and some folks wonder why some members of this site have all but stopped posting in the BRF.

Warp
12-03-2012, 23:54
This was all unsolicited.

No, actually, that was all in direct response to you addressing me to ask if I would pay for it. ;)

...and some folks wonder why some members of this site have all but stopped posting in the BRF.

You're tellin' me

WinterWizard
12-04-2012, 00:08
No, actually, that was all in direct response to you addressing me to ask if I would pay for it. ;)

Which was in direct response to you telling me I need a 1-7" twist AR. You addressed me first in post #41. Go back and read the thread. If you don't want responses, don't address people personally.

Warp
12-04-2012, 00:10
okay.

K. Foster
12-04-2012, 09:08
...and some folks wonder why some members of this site have all but stopped posting in the BRF.

If you stop posting, I'm out of here as well.

Magelk
12-04-2012, 10:19
...and some folks wonder why some members of this site have all but stopped posting in the BRF.


The funny thing is, I see lots of folks slam M4carbine for their "heavy handedness" but a guy can actually read a thread there, pick up information, and not wade through all kinds of immature crap.

Foxtrotx1
12-04-2012, 10:46
This was all unsolicited. Don't need your advice, bro. Didn't ask for it. Don't want it.

Hey guess what? We don't need your permission to give you advice.

Warp, surf, and woodenplank know what they are talking about.

Foxtrotx1
12-04-2012, 10:49
The funny thing is, I see lots of folks slam M4carbine for their "heavy handedness" but a guy can actually read a thread there, pick up information, and not wade through all kinds of immature crap.

Exactly.

WinterWizard
12-04-2012, 16:34
Hey guess what? We don't need your permission to give you advice.

Warp, surf, and woodenplank know what they are talking about.

Hey, guess what? I don't need your permission to respond. Go tell someone who cares.

By the by, every rifle, in fact every gun, you own is substandard. You should sell them all the buy something that is up to the task. :crying:

K. Foster
12-04-2012, 16:49
Hey, guess what? I don't need your permission to respond. Go tell someone who cares.

By the by, every rifle, in fact every gun, you own is substandard. You should sell them all the buy something that is up to the task. :crying:


If you tried really hard, I mean, really work at it. Could you be any more of a tool?

WinterWizard
12-04-2012, 16:51
If you tried really hard, I mean, really work at it. Could you be any more of a tool?

Ah, and here come the personal attacks for having an opinion - the cornerstone of maturity. Would you go up to a perfect stranger at the shooting range and tell him he should buy a new gun?

cowboy1964
12-04-2012, 17:08
This was a decent thread, let's not get it locked.

Armchair Commando
12-04-2012, 20:26
If you tried really hard, I mean, really work at it. Could you be any more of a tool?

Grow up and stop the name calling.

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Glocksteady
12-04-2012, 22:31
Just picked up some TAP 75 gr. and was wondering how it would shoot through a 1:9 twist barrel? I will be using it with a Armalite AR with a 16" heavy barrel if that makes a difference..

I have the exact same rifle. 75 gr .223 TAP, 77 .223 SMK, and 75 gr 5.56 Hornady Superperformance Match all stabilized well at 200 yds. If MOM is the goal, go with 5.56 for better terminal performance. You can find TAP 5.56 in the red box but it is rare and usually limited to LEO. It is more lethal than the .223 TAP FPD. The Superperformance Match is good enough for me and is pretty easy to find. For sub MOA at distance, I will stick with a bolt gun for accuracy.

Warp
12-04-2012, 22:53
I have the exact same rifle. 75 gr .223 TAP, 77 .223 SMK, and 75 gr 5.56 Hornady Superperformance Match all stabilized well at 200 yds. If MOM is the goal, go with 5.56 for better terminal performance. You can find TAP 5.56 in the red box but it is rare and usually limited to LEO. It is more lethal than the .223 TAP FPD. The Superperformance Match is good enough for me and is pretty easy to find. For sub MOA at distance, I will stick with a bolt gun for accuracy.

It's damn hard to find. (8126N)

Glocksteady
12-04-2012, 23:37
It's damn hard to find. (8126N)

It's like the Holy Grail of ammunition.

Matthew Courtney
12-04-2012, 23:43
If you tried really hard, I mean, really work at it. Could you be any more of a tool?

Dang, does this mean that I am no longer the dullest tool around here? I guess I will just go back to the shed and rust.

Does anybody know what the worst tool oil is so that I can use it to promote my dulling rust?

Matthew Courtney
12-04-2012, 23:56
If 'a person' wants advice, he will ask for it. Don't try and backtrack and act like you weren't addressing me, personally.



Oh, really...?





This was all unsolicited. Don't need your advice, bro. Didn't ask for it. Don't want it.

First, Warp did not address you personally in post 41. In addition to being the second person singular pronoun, "you" is also the second personal plural pronoun. It is clear from the context of the post that he was addressing all interested readers, including the OP.

Second, Warp directed no one to buy anything. The verb he used was "choose". If one already has such a firearm, he need but choose it from among those in his collection before heading to the field or range to shoot the discussed projectiles.

Third, if you neither want nor need the counsel, simply ignore it. If there were no interested parties, the thread would not exist. It is not all about winterwizard.

Matthew Courtney
12-05-2012, 00:04
Ah, and here come the personal attacks for having an opinion - the cornerstone of maturity. Would you go up to a perfect stranger at the shooting range and tell him he should buy a new gun?

He is not attacking you for having an opinion. He is trying to point out that your behavior is not appropriate. Since you do not do well with plain English, he is trying some good old fashioned sarcasm.

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 00:05
First, Warp did not address you personally in post 41. In addition to being the second person singular pronoun, "you" is also the second personal plural pronoun. It is clear from the context of the post that he was addressing all interested readers, including the OP.

Second, Warp directed no one to buy anything. The verb he used was "choose". If one already has such a firearm, he need but choose it from among those in his collection before heading to the field or range to shoot the discussed projectiles.

Third, if you neither want nor need the counsel, simply ignore it. If there were no interested parties, the thread would not exist. It is not all about winterwizard.

Nice try. He was addressing me. He knows it and I know it. And there were multiple posts, not just #41.

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 00:06
He is not attacking you for having an opinion. He is trying to point out that your behavior is not appropriate. Since you do not do well with plain English, he is trying some good old fashioned sarcasm.

My English is as plain and understandable as can be. How about mind your business. Is that plain enough for you?

Matthew Courtney
12-05-2012, 00:35
My English is as plain and understandable as can be. How about mind your business. Is that plain enough for you?

Civility is everybody's business.

And I was talking about your ability to comprehend plain English, but in a self-fullfilling prophesy, you missed that, too!:rofl:

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 00:39
Civility is everybody's business.

And I was talking about your ability to comprehend plain English, but in a self-fullfilling prophesy, you missed that, too!:rofl:

No, I did catch that. The comment was directed toward my statement to mind your business. Get it?

I don't care if you have thousands of posts or you run a training school. I don't care what you have to say about an argument that doesn't involve you. Got it, chief?

And if civility is everyone's business, then I would expect that someone doesn't offer me gun advice when I don't ask for it. And I wouldn't also expect others to to mind their business in a conversation between two other adults. And I would certainly expect others not to resort to childish name-calling like, "you're a tool" or "you don't understand plain English" when an argument doesn't involve them. If this conversation had taken place in a bar, would you have said two words to me? Not likely, because it's common courtesy and also asking for trouble.

So I will say it again. Mind your business. The conversation between Warp and I is resolved, more or less.

Matthew Courtney
12-05-2012, 01:11
No, I did catch that. The comment was directed toward my statement to mind your business. Get it?

I don't care if you have thousands of posts or you run a training school. I don't care what you have to say about an argument that doesn't involve you. Got it, chief?

And if civility is everyone's business, then I would expect that someone doesn't offer me gun advice when I don't ask for it. And I wouldn't also expect others to to mind their business in a conversation between two other adults. And I would certainly expect others not to resort to childish name-calling like, "you're a tool" or "you don't understand plain English" when an argument doesn't involve them. If this conversation had taken place in a bar, would you have said two words to me? Not likely, because it's common courtesy and also asking for trouble.

So I will say it again. Mind your business. The conversation between Warp and I is resolved, more or less.

What's the "p" in " pm" stand for? Isn't there some sort of way that two people here can communicate if they want to keep it private?

You posted in a "forum", which is a place for the discussion of items of public interest. If you desired a private chat, you clicked the wrong button.

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 01:24
What's the "p" in " pm" stand for? Isn't there some sort of way that two people here can communicate if they want to keep it private?

You posted in a "forum", which is a place for the discussion of items of public interest. If you desired a private chat, you clicked the wrong button.

You can tell that one to Warp, who chose to address me in the forum, not in a PM. And since he addressed me in the forum, I responded to him in the forum. Got it, chief...? :wavey:

K. Foster
12-05-2012, 11:14
Civility is everybody's business.

And I was talking about your ability to comprehend plain English, but in a self-fullfilling prophesy, you missed that, too!:rofl:

Itís not worth it Matt. Heís just seeking attention.

bmoore
12-05-2012, 11:29
What's the "p" in " pm" stand for? Isn't there some sort of way that two people here can communicate if they want to keep it private?

You posted in a "forum", which is a place for the discussion of items of public interest. If you desired a private chat, you clicked the wrong button.

You gotta read WoodenPlanks sig line, it will solve a bunch of your problems.

eb07
12-05-2012, 11:44
Everyone's rifle is going to shoot differently. Nobody can answer this question but the OP. Why argue about it. Do it or don't. What I do not understand is why people ask questions like these when they can go buy a box of 20 for 15-20 bucks and go figure it out for themselves. That was addressed in the second post. I guess getting off the chair and going outside is a lost art these days.

WoodenPlank
12-05-2012, 15:07
You gotta read WoodenPlanks sig line, it will solve a bunch of your problems.

It's there for a reason...

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 15:41
It’s not worth it Matt. He’s just seeking attention.

Nope, just defending myself. People that like to gang up on someone and verbally bully them are usually the attention seekers.

You gotta read WoodenPlanks sig line, it will solve a bunch of your problems.

No, read mine.

Warp
12-05-2012, 16:58
Nice try. He was addressing me. He knows it and I know it.

Incorrect.

bmoore
12-05-2012, 17:35
No, read mine.

Yeah not really impressive. Especially since I am a guy who's mother taught special Ed for 21 years and made help out during summers in her class. Seems fitting for someone of your personality though, stick with it........bashing a group of people who literally were born with a problem.

smokin762
12-05-2012, 17:45
As I read this Thread, Queen comes to my mind. Another one bites the dust. :whistling:

Another One Bites the Dust - YouTube

Matthew Courtney
12-05-2012, 18:06
You gotta read WoodenPlanks sig line, it will solve a bunch of your problems.

I was livin' the dream which is Plank's sig line....... I was draggin' him down to beat him with my experience:tongueout:.

Matthew Courtney
12-05-2012, 18:12
:bowdown:I guess I finally met someone with more experience than me! :bowdown:

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 20:06
Yeah not really impressive. Especially since I am a guy who's mother taught special Ed for 21 years and made help out during summers in her class. Seems fitting for someone of your personality though, stick with it........bashing a group of people who literally were born with a problem.

So what you are trying to say is you were born with this affliction?

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 20:07
:bowdown:I guess I finally met someone with more experience than me! :bowdown:

Did I ever say that? I simply said I don't care about your experience. It doesn't give you the right to butt in on other people's arguments, nor does it give you the right to talk down to me. Sure, you can go ahead and do it - there is nothing to stop you. But you are sure as hell going to elicit a response. And if you don't like the response, then don't do it.

Travclem
12-05-2012, 20:09
Did I ever say that? I simply said I don't care about your experience. It doesn't give you the right to butt in on other people's arguments, nor does it give you the right to talk down to me. Sure, you can go ahead and do it - there is nothing to stop you. But you are sure as hell going to elicit a response. And if you don't like the response, then don't do it.
Right over your head.

Warp
12-05-2012, 20:13
Right over your head.

Yup .

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 20:45
Right over your head.

Yup .

Or in one ear and out the other. Do you really think I am trying to linger on your lame, cryptic insults at this point?

You guys are awesome. I guess I will have to open an AR school, get a picture of a dog on my profile and post 10,000 times on GT. Then and only then will I be initiated to the league of cool.

bigmoney890
12-05-2012, 22:07
Or in one ear and out the other. Do you really think I am trying to linger on your lame, cryptic insults at this point?

You guys are awesome. I guess I will have to open an AR school, get a picture of a dog on my profile and post 10,000 times on GT. Then and only then will I be initiated to the league of cool.

Leave the dogs out of this. If you have a problem, then stop posting. Stop derailing threads.

WinterWizard
12-05-2012, 23:52
Right over your head.

Leave the dogs out of this. If you have a problem, then stop posting. Stop derailing threads.


My hemorrhoids bleed for you. Want a tissue?

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DJ Niner
12-06-2012, 00:48
Some of you folks are your own worse enemy.

If someone starts to spew crap, ignore them. Address the issues, give your opinion if you;d like, but ignore the person. One person can't argue and ruin a thread; it takes two or more to do that. One person can just rant, and then they'll get slapped for it, the clean-up will be simple, and the thread will remain open.

After 5 people have quoted various parts of multiple posts over and over again, I'm not spending 20 minutes of my already-in-short-supply time to clean it up; I'll just lock it. So it's up to you folks; let the ranters rant, report them, and the threads stay open, or engage (and lose, 'cause nobody really wins in this arena) and get the thread locked due to the mess.

I'll personally never lock a thread that just ONE person has crapped in/on. The group arguments and picking-back-and-forth threads are the ones that drive folks away.

It's really all up to you.