What's your opinion on Vocational High Schools? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Dennis in MA
11-30-2012, 07:31
We have 7 in our region. Seven.

Back 30 years ago when I was in HS, this was where the "zoofs" went to study auto repair or the zoof girls to learn beauty. Academics was an afterthought. It wasn't half of the curriculum.

Today, all 7 Vok's in my area compete for students. They have waiting lists every year. They have programs in computer science, finish carpentry, landscape & design, natural science & conservation, and such. Very modern. Very decent academics. Very expensive programs to run. (All the same costs for staffing a normal HS, plus all the equipment and supplies for the various vocational programs.)

Should the "state" (actually the cities, towns and counties here) be involved in non-essential education???

I think most who have studied history would agree that basic public education is vital to the success of a society. But should we be on the hook for vocational training as well? Or is that something the individual should figure out themselves. 50 years ago, my uncle joined the Army to learn diesel mechanics. Should someone get a free education in that during HS now?

I'm curious what the thoughts are here. I'm in the middle right now. I've never given it much thought but am friends with a teacher (who does art, silk-screening, and banner production at one of the Vok's) and this thought has popped into my head.

tadbart
11-30-2012, 07:39
our Vo-Tech is separate from the high school here.

i think there's lots worse things we could be spending tax money on. at least these kids come out with a decent blue-collar gig. after high school, i wasted 10-ish years, then went to Vo-Tech for 2 certificates before i went to college to continue in the same field.

most of the folks i was in class with there were on some kind of government grant, anyhow.

btr
11-30-2012, 07:47
Honestly, that sound more useful than normal public high schools

There is a shortage of skilled blue collar labor.

M2 Carbine
11-30-2012, 08:04
Back 30 years ago when I was in HS, this was where the "zoofs" went to study auto repair or the zoof girls to learn beauty. Academics was an afterthought. It wasn't half of the curriculum.
When I was in high school. 1955, there was a vocational high school in the city. I understand it was state of the art. Good equipment and instructors.


I attended the best engineering high school in the country but there was no such thing as me going to college.
Back then no one I knew or heard of went to college, so high school was it.

So I came out of high school with a "education" but no job skills.

My friend, who was some what of a trouble maker and was sent to vocational high school. He came out of high school with job skills.

I think (good) vocational high schools are the way to go for maybe 30-40%, or more of the kids.



Painting with a broad brush, I think most public schools and colleges have become brain washing factories to produce liberals.:upeyes:

All Pro Sports Hero
11-30-2012, 09:02
"Zoofs" :rofl:

We used to call them "Vokies".

Back when I was in junior high, the town voke was in the same building, separated by NOTHING. We shared a cafeteria those gorillas. Those guys were rough. Imagine 7th graders sharing school hallways with 18 yo vokies, all of whom reeked of cigarette smoke. Half of them had stayed back. I'd be surprised if some weren't in their 20's. Scary. I couldn't wait to get the Hell out of that prison.

I remember playing street hockey in gym class on one side of the floor, while the vokies were playing on the other side, separated only by a curtain. When our ball would scoot under, they'd dare one of us to come get it. :faint: No thanks, I'll take the zero.

Ahh, that was theraputic.

series1811
11-30-2012, 09:07
I took auto mechanics at night at high school vo-tech, in addition to daytime college prep courses. It's nice knowing how to actually do something and it's been a great hobby, too.

(I wish I had taken welding, too. I had to self teach that and I'm not that good at it). :)

Dennis in MA
11-30-2012, 09:32
So, so far the vote is that Vocational HS's are the bright light of success in the otherwise failure of education and government?

janice6
11-30-2012, 09:40
Learning a trade, any trade, is preferential to sucking off the government.

Worked for my low achiever neighbor. He is a low achiever, not all VoTech students are.

SC Tiger
11-30-2012, 09:43
our Vo-Tech is separate from the high school here.

i think there's lots worse things we could be spending tax money on. at least these kids come out with a decent blue-collar gig. after high school, i wasted 10-ish years, then went to Vo-Tech for 2 certificates before i went to college to continue in the same field.

most of the folks i was in class with there were on some kind of government grant, anyhow.

I'm gonna agree with this. There are much worse uses for tax dollars than education.

I don't know about some of the specific programs different schools offer but I think giving non-college-bound kids a head start in a career in carpentry, auto mechanics, or other programs is a good thing and helps them and our country as a whole. When I was in school they had welding, auto mechanics, carpentry, masonry, electrician, and cosmetology, and there may have been other programs as well. The students spend half the day at their normal high school and half at the vocational school.

Were I running this I would look into adding some technology programs as well.

Andy W
11-30-2012, 09:44
Colllege is great but it's not for everyone. In many cases, vocational training will benefit a young person more than a college degree.

Andy W
11-30-2012, 09:45
I'm gonna agree with this. There are much worse uses for tax dollars than education.

I don't know about some of the specific programs different schools offer but I think giving non-college-bound kids a head start in a career in carpentry, auto mechanics, or other programs is a good thing and helps our country as a whole. When I was in school they had welding, auto mechanics, carpentry, masonry, electrician, and cosmetology. There may have been others as well.

Were there any men that took cosmetology?

SC Tiger
11-30-2012, 09:48
Were there any men that took cosmetology?

I can't say for sure that there weren't.

(I didn't go to the vocational school).

SC Tiger
11-30-2012, 09:50
Colllege is great but it's not for everyone. In many cases, vocational training will benefit a young person more than a college degree.

This x1000.

Besides, my mechanic probably makes much more money in a year than I do.

jtmac
11-30-2012, 09:51
If we're going to have public education, this is how it should be. Vocational training should be the standard, not just the plan for the ones that can't/won't hack academia.

For most students, the liberal arts education in high schools can be compressed into a quarter of the time they use to teach it. Do that, and use the rest of the time to teach something useful.

A friend of mine has a sister that goes to Rancho High School in North Last Vegas. Look at their magnet programs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_High_School
Is that going overboard with public funds? I think so, but bravo for pulling it off.

The end of high school is long past the time a person should be ready to be a member of the work force. EVERY kid needs to leave high school able to work somehow.

Rabbi
11-30-2012, 10:00
Colllege is great but it's not for everyone. In many cases, vocational training will benefit a young person more than a college degree.

I agree with this.

I dont know if a "vocational high school" is the answer but some level of exposure to various trades in high school might be a great idea.

The "everyone has to go to college" mantra has backfired in a way and been a boon in another. It has created a vacuum in skilled trades at the same time it has given us much more advanced skilled trades.

In this country right now, liberal arts college educated guy cant get a job and if he does it pays 35K a year. Skilled labor guy, be that plumber, machinist, skilled oifield hand... that guy can get a 60K plus job all over the place.

The thing about a college education is you dont have to have one and if you need one you can get one at any time. Skilled labor guy who starts working at 20 and at 30 sees opportunity and needs a degree can do just that and know what degree he needs.

Guy who graduates college at 22 with liberal arts type degree will spend the rest of his life a slave to that degree (most educated peope do, it is how they define themeselve. I.E. "I am a (insert degree) and then chase that ) and yet probably not work in that field. Such a person will end up an insurance adjuster (nothing wrong with that) or managing a retail hot tub store...(kind of jobs that require a degree, any degree)when they would have done much better, even after graduation, to learn how to weld or fix airplanes.

Dennis in MA
11-30-2012, 10:07
But shouldn't they pay their fare at ITT Tech instead of you and I paying for it? It isn't that there AREN'T choices out there.

I'm finding this fascinating. (And I'm probably in agreement with you - but it's so odd to be voting FOR government and education. LOL)

sr556m9
11-30-2012, 10:29
There is a massive shortage of skilled, young workers in our country. The current high school systems that do not have vocational education are a complete joke. How many college graduates can't find work right now? How many jobs are open at the present time for welders, robot programmers, and CNC programmers? It's not even funny. Nowadays, you can either go to school or get training. Those who are going to school are having a hard time finding work, while those who are getting training in the trades are having no problem finding GOOD jobs. The shortage of skilled workers is only going to get worse as the baby boomers retire.

To say that high school students should not have access to this kind of training is ignorant. In fact, I believe the teachers and principals should be required to get their hands dirty and see the value of the trades. They are not helping students by trying to push them into white collar jobs, or by encouraging them to go to college for fine arts, theater, philosophy, humanities, or english. The problem is that many of the teachers and principals have never had a real job. Their whole life has been spent in education. They went to high school, went to college, and started teaching in a school. Also, they have been brainwashed into thinking only the "dumb" kids go into fields such as welding, plumbing, construction, etc. This is perhaps one of the main reasons our country is in the shape it is in.

Edited to add: I am a community college robotics and welding instructor. I see the repercussions of academics everyday. In fact, I have several students in my welding courses who have 4 year degrees from Big 10 schools and they cannot find jobs in their field, so they are learning to weld because "that is where the jobs are."

Dennis in MA
11-30-2012, 11:29
Wow. This is interesting.


Is that the government's job? Or is that a job of private industry/the individual? Aren't you creating a nanny-state where the government provides the training? Can't private industry do this for cheaper? (Less benefits for private industry vs. teachers in my AO.)

I'm not asking if the training is worthy or not. It clearly is. (Our one regional Aggie school doesn't even teach farming anymore - we don't farm around here. Why offer a "major" that is useless?)

I'm asking - is it government's job to do so?

Or should they provide the 3 R's? Possibly at a reduced schedule. I know in the 60's, Brockton, MA had too many students and not a big enough HS. They had the JR and SR's go from 7:30-11:30 and the Frosh/Soph's at 11:30 to 3:30 or something. Half time for each because of size constraints. Today, they have the largest HS east of the Mississippi.

Rabbi
11-30-2012, 12:17
Edited to add: I am a community college robotics and welding instructor.

That sounds like a really kick ass job.

220-9er
11-30-2012, 12:35
Many of the kids that can't pay their college loans back have worthless college degrees in abstract subjects. They would have done much better getting a vocational degree and could have actually done something productive for society and made a good living. Instead they studied things like liberal arts and wonder why nobody will hand them a good paying job.

jtmac
11-30-2012, 12:36
Is that the government's job? Or is that a job of private industry/the individual? Aren't you creating a nanny-state where the government provides the training? Can't private industry do this for cheaper? (Less benefits for private industry vs. teachers in my AO.)

If we agree that kids should be stuck in school as long as they are and we agree that public school availability is a good thing... then yes, it is the government's job (because in that situation we already agree that the government should be schooling kids, and the question is just what they should be schooling them in.).

I think there is a good argument for public schools at the right level (and at higher levels in certain sectors) because the forces that would make school beneficial for society as a whole operate on such a long tail that a lot of important education just wouldn't happen. I think this is one place that government can fill in the gap successfully (with a light touch, of course--current college tuition is a lesson in what heavy government touch does).

But we can still leverage private industry--and should. Does industry X see a need for workers in field Y in N many years? Let them pitch in, and they can reap the benefits.

The purpose of government education is to fill in the gaps that the market won't meet, but in doing so we're creating new problems (by separating students from livelihood and creating adult children). Including vocational education is a way to fill in the gaps, reduce the overall need for time spent in education limbo, and produce workers ready to benefit the community's economy. The place of government in vocational education is directly proportional to the place we give it in non-vocational education.

The good part is if we're clever we can use this as an avenue to reduce government spending in education instead of increase it.

Flying-Dutchman
11-30-2012, 12:55
Wow. This is interesting.


Is that the government's job? Or is that a job of private industry/the individual? Aren't you creating a nanny-state where the government provides the training? Can't private industry do this for cheaper? (Less benefits for private industry vs. teachers in my AO.)

I'm not asking if the training is worthy or not. It clearly is. (Our one regional Aggie school doesn't even teach farming anymore - we don't farm around here. Why offer a "major" that is useless?)

I'm asking - is it government's job to do so?

Or should they provide the 3 R's? Possibly at a reduced schedule. I know in the 60's, Brockton, MA had too many students and not a big enough HS. They had the JR and SR's go from 7:30-11:30 and the Frosh/Soph's at 11:30 to 3:30 or something. Half time for each because of size constraints. Today, they have the largest HS east of the Mississippi.
As long as there is a public school system there should be Vo-Techs (I would abolish all compulsory public education).

A friend of mine went to Vo-Tech; he was an F student but street smart, focused and hard working.

He ended up building a huge real estate development company.

He went bankrupt a few years ago due to the real estate crash and his empire is still unwinding but for most of his life from his mid-20’s he was a millionaire.

The techies were like Welcome Back Kotter or that kid with the switchblade and Camaro in the movie Christine.

railfancwb
11-30-2012, 12:59
One of the better VocEd schools in the country is Nashville Auto Diesel - a for-profit, fee based school. They have students from all parts of the country, and even have dorms.

Not every one is capable of benefiting from a serious college education. Some, because of IQ; others because they cannot stand being confined to a desk. They...and society...benefit if they are trained to be productive contributing adults.

And as others have mentioned, blue collar skills are in demand and often pay quite well.


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dvrdwn72
11-30-2012, 12:59
I work for a large electric utility here and they are actually getting involved in the vo-tech programs in hopes to recruit new employees for the future. I think its a good thing, times are different. Employers like mine want their work force cross trained and be able to do more than one trade.

PBR Sailor
11-30-2012, 13:05
Vocational trade education is an important program that has been ignored in some school districts. Not everyone wants to be an electrical engineer or biomed tech. Some people want to run machines, weld and make things with their hands.

I took wood shop, vocational machine shop and welding when I attended high school. That was in addition to taking advanced math and science courses. The experience I gained from the vocational classes helped me to better understand what I was doing when I attended engineering school.

FullClip
11-30-2012, 13:11
I wish I'd had the option of a Vocational High School. After I got enough credits to graduate in the "college course" my parents let me take construction trade courses for a couple semesters. I enjoyed the crap out of it, and learned how to apply some of the junk I had to digest in Algebra and Geometry.
Wish I had taken metal shop so I could weld a bead that doesn't look like somebody sneezed on the pipe.:supergrin:

But, yeah, I think a vocational school is a good idea for a lot of folks. The ones who actually make it though a college degree program and find a job that pays will need somebody to fix the crap they buy and build the stuff they need.

JohnBT
11-30-2012, 13:12
"Is that the government's job?"

As much as the school teaching keyboarding and computer skills to the college bound so they can write papers and learn to do office work.

The vo-tech students these days are using computers to diagnose cars, run CNC machines, HVAC and all sorts of other things. It's not your grandfather's vo-tech.

John

byf43
11-30-2012, 13:17
I went to a vocational school, for high school.

To get in there, you had to have a 3.50 GPA.

Here are the trades that were offered:
Technical -
Computer Programming/Data Processing
Electronics
Printing
Drafting

Building Trades -
Carpentry
Brick Laying/Masonry
Industrial Electricity (Home/office wiring)
A/C - Refrigeration

Auto trades -
Auto mechanics
Welding
Machine Shop
Maintenance & Repair

Miscellanous -
Nursing
Cosmetology
Food Preparation (Restaurant style/amounts)
Business (Administration) Courses


I took the technical trades.
Came out of high school with a trade. Still working in it, 40 years later.
I know some of my friends that were in the academic section of the school, that were still living at home, sponging off Mom/Dad after college, with no jobs.


Look at it this way. . . .
Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or politician.:wavey:




I have no regrets.

JohnBT
11-30-2012, 13:21
Joe Cowen's vo-tech class (Greater Altoona Career & Technology Center) makes & sells rifle rests every year to raise money. I suppose there is still a waiting list. I have one of the older fixed top models and one with a windage top.

http://team40x.com/member/cowan.html

Flying-Dutchman
11-30-2012, 13:33
I took the technical trades.
Came out of high school with a trade. Still working in it, 40 years later.
I know some of my friends that were in the academic section of the school, that were still living at home, sponging off Mom/Dad after college, with no jobs.

Look at it this way. . . .
Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or politician.:wavey:




I have no regrets.
A lot of contractors I know are richer than most white collar workers (including lawyers).

Most people should be in Vo-Tech.

The Vo-Techies had a jump on life; started families sooner, grew up faster.

And then there is the student loan bubble…is college for most worth it?

Hauptmann6
11-30-2012, 13:51
Should the "state" (actually the cities, towns and counties here) be involved in non-essential education???


I would think that this is more essential education that spitting out yet more kids for college prep that will never be successful in college. They will leave school with skills they can use to get a job strait from school and will pay more in taxes due to them having skills. I wish it would have been an option when I went.

sr556m9
11-30-2012, 14:01
That sounds like a really kick ass job.

Rabbi,

I do love my job. Unfortunately, everyday it becomes less and less about teaching and more about meeting initiatives for the college that have absolutely nothing to do with the classroom experience of the students. Working with students is the very best part of my job. Colleges are EXTREMELY political places to work. Factor in the "academic" and "college professor" types and it is even worse. Teaching in the classroom is like a mini vacation from all of the other work.

The instructors of the academic subjects look down on those who teach trades. Also, the administration of the college is ridiculously disconnected from the way industry works. It seems like those of us who teach trades are constantly fighting to justify our existence, even though our students are getting good jobs that pay extremely well when they complete our programs (I just found out the other day that one of my students who graduated last May got a job as a robot programmer getting paid $23 an hour to start. He is 21 years old and only one example of many). It really is sad. I have contemplated heavily lately about returning to industry and leaving education behind.

sr556m9

smokeross
11-30-2012, 14:18
I started a scholarship fund last year that helped 2 students from our local high school attend trade school. That said, I feel that there are many students in public schools that would benefit from being removed from said school and taught a trade. I'm thinking specifically of some local mouth breathers who only get promoted grade to grade based on sporadic attendance. They are a distraction to the other students, and the 'education' they are currently getting (or not) will do them no good in the world they are going to be living in.

Dennis in MA
11-30-2012, 15:01
"Is that the government's job?"

As much as the school teaching keyboarding and computer skills to the college bound so they can write papers and learn to do office work.

The vo-tech students these days are using computers to diagnose cars, run CNC machines, HVAC and all sorts of other things. It's not your grandfather's vo-tech.

John

Touché.

Wow. Sometimes government works! Even here in MA. Lol

glockdoc21
11-30-2012, 15:03
In this country right now, liberal arts college educated guy cant get a job and if he does it pays 35K a year. Skilled labor guy, be that plumber, machinist, skilled oifield hand... that guy can get a 60K plus job all over the place.



read my mind...

inthefrey
11-30-2012, 15:07
what! And have some kid actually learn to use his or her hands palms-down instead of palms-up? What would the gub'ment say?!

Redheadhunter21
11-30-2012, 15:39
I just graduated from high-school 3 years ago, I was lucky enough to go to a HS that was built on to a pre-existing vocational center. Coming out of middle school I was forced to make a choice on which program I wanted to take during high school. Instead of pointless electives like basket weaving and teachers aid( granted if your an art major, or education major that might help) my elective classes where spent in the vocational side of the school. Many different trades there from general mechanics, cosmetology, culinary arts, engineering, computer tech, to nursing(what I chose to go into).

Now most of the programs allowed students to graduate with a certain certification relating to their program. I had two CNA, and LPN. Now most students graduated and where able to find a job with there certifications others chose to get more education in college to allow for advancement in there field.

Should the government pay for it???

Why not you're sending us to HS for free anyways, why not allow us schooling that will help us give back to our economy. Most of my friends that went to a regular HS are finished with a general AA and either looking for a job or haven't made up there mind what they want to do. Me I'm 21 and almost done with becoming a Registered Nurse and I'm a year behind where I could have been.

Why send someone to school to waste their time and everyone's money when you can start them off in a career, wether it be a simple trade( not saying skilled labor is below anything else) or jump starting them into college with experience in a field of study.


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czsmithGT
11-30-2012, 16:59
Should the government pay for it???

Why not you're sending us to HS for free anyways, why not allow us schooling that will help us give back to our economy. Most of my friends that went to a regular HS are finished with a general AA and either looking for a job or haven't made up there mind what they want to do. Me I'm 21 and almost done with becoming a Registered Nurse and I'm a year behind where I could have been.

Why send someone to school to waste their time and everyone's money when you can start them off in a career, wether it be a simple trade( not saying skilled labor is below anything else) or jump starting them into college with experience in a field of study.


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I agree with you- it makes a lot of sense for public schools to teach skills that will be valuable to kids when they go out into the world. College and beyond is the right path for some but certainly not all.

Averageman
11-30-2012, 17:47
I went to a party with my ex wife the ObGyn one time.
Room full of Doctors, the one other guy in the room dinking a beer out of a bottle and I started talking. Come to find out he took Vo-Tech HVAC classes when he returned from Viet Nam in 69. Turned out he owned and operated about a half dozen shops in the Austin area. Drove a shop truck to the party and was a country as a gravey covered bisket.
He probobly could have bought and sold everybody in the room, just your average guy with common sense and the will to achieve.

Huaco Kid
11-30-2012, 18:25
If we were accepted, we got to attend an off-campus tech school for half a day in our Junior and Senior year. I enjoyed, and was good at, science and math. I didn't give a hoot about any other classes and didn't give them any effort at all.

I went for the auto mechanics and due to the emergence of electronics in cars, I learned the basics and turned that interest into an engineering degree.

If not for the tech school, I would've likely been a drop-out.

havensal
11-30-2012, 18:37
I went to vocational school for two years in HS. Best move of my HS career. Basically made my first year of college a review. 4.0 all year.


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MoCop
11-30-2012, 18:45
Colllege is great but it's not for everyone. In many cases, vocational training will benefit a young person more than a college degree.

This. It helped me quite a bit back in my HS days. At the time I was not ready for college and learning carpentry skills in the votech classes gave me an idea of what I wanted to do after high school (at that time anyway). Plus, it helped get my foot in the door at a very good job with an apprenticeship after I graduated.

Jim in MI
11-30-2012, 19:05
OK, first lets say you are OK with the idea of public education....

why shouldn't welding, carpentry, cooking, electronics, auto repair, ect be taught? Heck, throw gunsmithing and bamboo fly rod making in as well

Now, having a 14 year old kid decide "college isn't right for me I just want to take shop classes" or "I am going to be a lawyer and will never get my fingers dirty so I won't take Votech classes" would be a huge mistake. How the heck does a 14 year old know what they want?

Carpenters and mechanics would benefit from all the math classes they could handle, as well as business classes, accounting, writing, computers, ect

College prep kids could learn that electricity isn't just the thing that comes out of outlets, and learn what magnets and copper do when they spin around each other. Just for fun have them make a trebuchet (sp?)

How many of you know 50 year old carpenters, mechanics, plumbers, act? Their bodies are shot, and they blew all of their money on trucks, boats, and snowmobiles and wish they would have gone to school for a cushy sit on your butt job. They don't retire as much as they end up on disability.

The 50 year old doctor can explain the physics of how electrons behave but they can't change a light switch in their house, and they wished they knew how to weld so they wouldn't have to deal with Obamacare.

If I could go back to high school I think I would have taken 2 years of electronics, and skipped the spanish and latin. But I was a kid and knew everything and stayed as far away as the stoner Votech goons as I could.

inthefrey
12-02-2012, 08:23
OK, first lets say you are OK with the idea of public education....

why shouldn't welding, carpentry, cooking, electronics, auto repair, ect be taught? Heck, throw gunsmithing and bamboo fly rod making in as well

Now, having a 14 year old kid decide "college isn't right for me I just want to take shop classes" or "I am going to be a lawyer and will never get my fingers dirty so I won't take Votech classes" would be a huge mistake. How the heck does a 14 year old know what they want?

Carpenters and mechanics would benefit from all the math classes they could handle, as well as business classes, accounting, writing, computers, ect

College prep kids could learn that electricity isn't just the thing that comes out of outlets, and learn what magnets and copper do when they spin around each other. Just for fun have them make a trebuchet (sp?)

How many of you know 50 year old carpenters, mechanics, plumbers, act? Their bodies are shot, and they blew all of their money on trucks, boats, and snowmobiles and wish they would have gone to school for a cushy sit on your butt job. They don't retire as much as they end up on disability.

The 50 year old doctor can explain the physics of how electrons behave but they can't change a light switch in their house, and they wished they knew how to weld so they wouldn't have to deal with Obamacare.

If I could go back to high school I think I would have taken 2 years of electronics, and skipped the spanish and latin. But I was a kid and knew everything and stayed as far away as the stoner Votech goons as I could.

:goodpost:

Parental influence plays a BIG part in the career decision making process a "child" makes. A parent can PUSH a child into a career choice that is not right for them. They blow hugh amounts of money only to find out it's not what makes them happy and end up really frustrated.

BTW, I'm 53 and learned how to TIG weld recently. Rather good at it now! I can also replace a car engine and do board-level electronic repair. However, that last skill has been replaced by board-swap!:supergrin:

Trades are good for some kids but not for others.

lakota169
12-02-2012, 20:33
My nephew is an instructor here. He teaches a fire fighting course. Many of his students go on to become firemen and EMT's after graduation.

http://www.evit.com/future-students/Programs.cfm

Cubdriver
12-02-2012, 20:58
I went to a state Voc-tech beginning in 1979. At that time there were north of 750 kids taking the entrance exam for something less than 200 slots. I went from there to a technical college for a two year engineering degree, and it's served me well ever since. Seeing as the .gov is already paying for education, they might as well pay for something that works, at least to some extent!

-Pat

Peace Warrior
12-02-2012, 22:16
IMHO, most vocational schools are good for those students between the 70 and 85-ish IQ range. Some higher IQ students make the schools and courses like Architectural Drawing fly on each year. I loved shop class in Middle School and enjoyed shop class in High School as well. I only started admitting to being a nerd around 1995 or so.

ETA: Anyone know anyone who actually failed a vocational course? Not me... :whistling:

byf43
12-03-2012, 06:38
ETA: Anyone know anyone who actually failed a vocational course? Not me... :whistling:

Yes. . . . . me.

I intentionally failed the final exam in the Computer Programming/Data Processing class at my VoTech High School.

You see, my Dad (My he Forever Rest in Peace) TOLD me that I was going to be a computer programmer.

Look at some of these posts in this thread.

How many 14-16 year old kids (especially boys!) actually LISTEN to their parents????

This one (points at himself!) sure didn't!!!!!!!!

I was passing the class with an "A".
I didn't want to mess with programming boards, alpha/numeric data cards & keypunch machines, sorters, IBM 1130 computers, all my life.

In my sophomore class (1st year of high school, when I was a kid), I wanted to work with my hands.

I passed "Printing" with an "A". My Dad was a printer, but, he said that he wanted me to have a better life than he had.

I passed "Electronics" with an "A". (Too darned lazy to keep up with Math, though."

I passed "Drafting" with an "A". (Instructor was a PITA, and slept most of the time.)

So. . . . I did NOT want computer programming/data processing.

I intentionally 'cheated' on my final exam.
I 'acted' like I was looking over the shoulder of a girl sitting next to me, while using jumpers and programming a 'board'.
(She was actually copying my computer board!)
The teacher came by, collected my written test and computer boards, and wrote "0" on my test!!

OH!!!!!!!! Happy Day!!!!!


The girl that was looking at my test. . . .the instructor's daughter!!!!!:supergrin:

Dennis in MA
12-03-2012, 09:54
IMHO, most vocational schools are good for those students between the 70 and 85-ish IQ range. Some higher IQ students make the schools and courses like Architectural Drawing fly on each year. I loved shop class in Middle School and enjoyed shop class in High School as well. I only started admitting to being a nerd around 1995 or so.

ETA: Anyone know anyone who actually failed a vocational course? Not me... :whistling:

30 years ago, this was certainly the case around here.

Although, it seems the local Aggie doesn't offer any AP level courses and I'm not sure they even offer languages. ???? I dunno how they stay accredited with no language option.

airmotive
12-03-2012, 10:21
I like the post that VoTec should be the base for a high school education. It would benefit everybody. In order to get your diploma, you had to be able to frame out a house, sweat a pipe, repair a microwave or install a circuit breaker panel.
That way, the kids who never intended to go to higher education had an employable skill, and the kids who do intend to get a college education have an employable skill to help pay for their education. This also has the added benefit of freeing up the student to major in women's studies or poetry or whatever...the person still has job skills even if their college major is not in high demand.

The country still needs poets. And poets have to eat. A vocational education allows a person to major in what he wants to study, while still being able to feed himself.

The fact is, the vast majority of jobs that require a college education don't require any college-obtained knowledge. The degree requirement is simply a hurdle to weed out the non-starters. Only a few careers actually NEED a college education...engineering come to mind.
An airline pilot doesn't need college....except to get the job interview.

Dennis in MA
12-03-2012, 13:10
If find this thread very much opposed to the "you need college to make $" thread we had a few months ago. I think at times, I was told the only way to make more money was to get more education, regardless of ability or aptitude.

Funny place, GNG.

Glockgeezer
12-03-2012, 14:15
I taught vocational auto mechanics and heating & A/C in high school and jr. college for 35 yrs. In high school it was a dumping ground for LD & BD 's, then they came back to jr. college to learn a trade. Part of the problem with public education is that you can't get rid of a disruptive kid for anything short of murder, but a few disruptive kids can destroy the learning system for everyone. About the time I retired, the power of discipline was taken away from classroom teachers and replaced with time-outs and detentions. The same genius's who started that are probably the same ones who figure more gun control laws will stop criminals from using guns.
I still run into former students who thank me for kicking their butts to straighten them out.

CBennett
12-03-2012, 15:57
Honestly, that sound more useful than normal public high schools

There is a shortage of skilled blue collar labor.

^^ agreed. some kids just know what they want to do and its in some vocational trade..Our neighbor was always a "Car Guy" or kid at the time. He knew what he wanted to do when he "grew up" and that was to restore and fix up old cars(specifically Muscle Cars). He went to a vacational school that was part of the school for auto repairs/body work...he also took either AM or PM classes just like any other student at the HS(you were eiter AM or PM Vo-Tech and took your Math,Science,English,Social Studies,Gym opposite times...He got great at it and now works for a famous restoration shop and one of their head guys...

Same for a friend that knew because his family had a lot of people in the profession he wanted to be a HVAC guy...same deal...Took the VO-Tech HVAC classes and is now a successful owner of a HVAC business and doing quite well(both make at least 4-5X what I do a year)


Do i realize they get a bunch of burnouts/rejects/retards also...sure but to be honest if you can show you are in it(i think you should have to show a interest and maintain a decent GPA in the Vo-Tec areas to qualify to keep going to a Vo-Tec part of school)...im all for Vo-tech if worked right

volky
12-03-2012, 19:25
I went to a vokie. The first year they rotated us around to carpentry, auto, machine shop, and electronics. I wanted electronics, since I had been reading related magazines for at least 5 years. I went in with a good understanding of what it entailed, and many questions.

After high school I signed up for DEVry tech electronic engineering course. Math was not my strong point, and I struggled. dropped out after two years. Went on to computer programming school where upon graduation was told if you don't have a college degree, it may be difficult to find work. That statement is so very true.

So I went with with alarm company doing installs and service. Now I just service the high end customers and love it! Every once in a while, I'll use some info from my past to help solve a problem. Money??I should pull mid 70's this year. Never would have made it this far with regular HS and college.

Jim in MI
12-03-2012, 19:40
If find this thread very much opposed to the "you need college to make $" thread we had a few months ago. I think at times, I was told the only way to make more money was to get more education, regardless of ability or aptitude.

Funny place, GNG.

If my kids tell me they want to be plumbers, carpenters, gunsmiths, ect....

I am sending them to college for a degree in business, finance, or accounting, then they can go and join the trades.