what country has most individual Freedom? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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canis latrans
11-30-2012, 20:35
objectively, speaking.

Nestor
11-30-2012, 20:45
You may enjoy different kind of liberties in different countries.
This is my biggest discovery connected with the immigration.

czsmithGT
11-30-2012, 21:10
objectively, speaking.

Depends on what kind of freedom you mean. If you mean mob criminals free to ply their trade as long as they bribe the police it may be Russia. if you mean free to live on foodstamps and welfare without ever contributing a single thing to society, it would probably be USA. If you mean free to start with nothing and work your way to a successful life it would also probably be USA, at least for now. In the future, maybe not so much.

HollowHead
11-30-2012, 21:16
Until the legal drinking age goes back to a relaxed 18, it isn't the USA. HH

RonS
11-30-2012, 21:45
Thailand. If you have money you are free to do pretty much whatever you want and can pay for.

9jeeps
11-30-2012, 21:49
Mars! Getting there is a bit on the tough side.

czsmithGT
11-30-2012, 21:53
Mars! Getting there is a bit on the tough side.

Not really. All you need is a passport, visa, and letter of invitation from a permanent resident.

Slug71
11-30-2012, 21:55
If you mean free to start with nothing and work your way to a successful life it would also probably be USA, at least for now. In the future, maybe not so much.

Not so much now I think. Times have definitely changed.

Slug71
11-30-2012, 21:57
Until the legal drinking age goes back to a relaxed 18, it isn't the USA. HH

Not too mention that even T.V here is extremely censored compared to other countries.

UtahIrishman
11-30-2012, 22:40
I'll go out on a limb and say Alaska

devildog2067
11-30-2012, 23:41
Not so much now I think. Times have definitely changed.

They haven't changed that much. Someone willing to work hard can still make a damn good life for themselves.

Slug71
12-01-2012, 00:04
They haven't changed that much. Someone willing to work hard can still make a damn good life for themselves.

Absolutely. But I think that applies to many other countries too.

IndianaMatt
12-01-2012, 00:27
I'll go out on a limb and say Alaska

:thumbsup:

*ASH*
12-01-2012, 00:32
well its not this country for sure


nobody owns nothing , you pay taxes , on everything if you dont they take it .

everyone in this country is renting til they die

gale155
12-01-2012, 00:40
I would have said certain areas in Honduras, but attorneys have nixed that idea for now:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/04/honduran-judges-reject-model-cities

stevelyn
12-01-2012, 01:10
I'll go out on a limb and say Alaska

But "Oh" you say, "Alaska isn't a country, it's a state."

And I say you're right, but one of these days we will be.

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 05:21
objectively, speaking.

Hong Kong is the most economically free thanks to years of benign neglect under British rule.

The less populated, less developed and poorer the country the more freedom (with a lot of exceptions of course for brutal dictators etc).

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 05:33
The more people chant about their freedom and how free they are, the more loudly I hear their chains rattling. George Orwell

Do not mistake the false freedoms of same sex marriage and legal marijuana with our surveillance and high tax society.

If you are working the majority of the year to pay taxes you are not free.

When every move or financial transaction you make is monitored you are not free.

Rustin
12-01-2012, 07:32
What about switzerland?

Walter Bishop
12-01-2012, 10:27
Somalia is a libertarian dream land. No government to restrict your freedoms at all. But there are a few downsides....

G-34
12-01-2012, 10:35
When every move or financial transaction you make is monitored you are not free.




how is one monitored when they use cash? off the top of my head all i can come up with is a reciept that would link you to the purchase or what have you, but still that cash makes you anonymous

HollowHead
12-01-2012, 10:45
When every move or financial transaction you make is monitored you are not free.

Pure nonsense. HH

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 11:05
What about switzerland?

Switzerland is a great place to live, but it's a huge nanny state as well. (Also it's quite racist)

I got written a ticket once for not having a registration sticker on my bicycle.

treeline
12-01-2012, 11:10
If you mean free to start with nothing and work your way to a successful life it would also probably be USA, at least for now. In the future, maybe not so much.

It's not true now. You're describing social mobility and the USA isn't even in the top 5. It's the Scandinavian countries that have the highest mobility, largely due to cheap education and healthcare. Even if you're born dirt poor, you have a much better chance of making more than your parents if you're born in Scandinavia than the USA. Of course that means you'll be paying a buttload of taxes so social mobility comes at the expense of your freedom to keep your earnings.

Every developed nation has accounts of people who started with nothing and became rich, invented something amazing or became preeminent in their field. That includes natives and immigrants. At one point we were one of the only places people could go to get affordable land, the dream of many early immigrants. After WW2 we were the only ones with any money. We no longer have an agrarian economy and Europe is no longer under rationing. Two of the things that made us the place people went to succeed no longer matter.

Edit: I don't want to overstate my case. The USA still has opportunities for anyone and is still a popular choice for immigrants at all levels.

czsmithGT
12-01-2012, 11:37
It's not true now. You're describing social mobility and the USA isn't even in the top 5. It's the Scandinavian countries that have the highest mobility, largely due to cheap education and healthcare. Even if you're born dirt poor, you have a much better chance of making more than your parents if you're born in Scandinavia than the USA. Of course that means you'll be paying a buttload of taxes so social mobility comes at the expense of your freedom to keep your earnings.

Every developed nation has accounts of people who started with nothing and became rich, invented something amazing or became preeminent in their field. That includes natives and immigrants. At one point we were one of the only places people could go to get affordable land, the dream of many early immigrants. After WW2 we were the only ones with any money. We no longer have an agrarian economy and Europe is no longer under rationing. Two of the things that made us the place people went to succeed no longer matter.

Edit: I don't want to overstate my case. The USA still has opportunities for anyone and is still a popular choice for immigrants at all levels.

I wonder how long that will remain true for the Nordic countries? Each of them has a population less than New York City (except Sweden which is slightly larger but not by much) and historically they have been fairly ethnically homogeneous compared to the US. It seems this is changing as immigration there increases, so will things still be as rosy in another generation?

snowbird
12-01-2012, 13:23
You may enjoy different kind of liberties in different countries.
This is my biggest discovery connected with the immigration.

I think you're right, Nestor.

While serving in the US Army in Korea, I heard the Beatles sing to some Western leftist who wanted a "revolution", "you'd better free your mind instead". I liked it.

Gallium
12-01-2012, 13:24
Freedom is closely tied (loosely proportional) to money and somewhat inversely proportionate to fame/notoriety. Bill Gates is "free".

Freedom can also have an element to race. Warren Buffet in Nigeria - not so free. Wesley Snipes post prison and $15M in liquid assets in the same place - much freer.

Last, freedom is definitely tied to your health and wellbeing, and if you live in a place that can sustain both. What use is it being in Padogdia (where you are totally free), but you can't find a doctor when you need one?

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 16:03
how is one monitored when they use cash? off the top of my head all i can come up with is a reciept that would link you to the purchase or what have you, but still that cash makes you anonymous
Cash is discouraged by the Government. All deposits over $10K trigger a report to the IRS. Even significantly lower amounts can trigger a report if the bank suspects you of smurfing.

If you are stopped with a large amount of currency expect to prove it is not ill gotten gains or have it seized; guilty until proven innocent when it comes to carrying cash.

A free country would allow you to deposit $100K in currency without worry.

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 16:43
Pure nonsense. HH
Care to elaborate?

Around here I am scanned and photographed everywhere I go.

A township cop often sits at an intersection close by my house.

He scans tens of thousands of plates. If you have a suspended license and the car belongs to you, you will be walking for a year.

You are tracked by your phone.

What you post or view on the internet can be used against you if it ever came to that.

There is nothing sinister about it as long as the government is our friend.

LAWDOGKMS
12-01-2012, 16:45
Switzerland is a great place to live, but it's a huge nanny state as well. (Also it's quite racist)

I got written a ticket once for not having a registration sticker on my bicycle.

And so is the US...unbelievably racist against whites..

I know, I know, supposedly minorities can't be racist...B.S.!

Diversity, so often mentioned, is nothing but a PC way to say anti-white..

I've been to Switzerland, and it's an unbelievably clean, pristine, civilized country with unbelievable natural beauty and a noticeable lack of "trashy people"...

It's on my top 5 list of places to retire if I can afford to..

And I don't think the Swiss are racist, they just want to keep their country the way it is...which we are failing at miserably..

Nestor
12-01-2012, 16:46
I think you're right, Nestor.

While serving in the US Army in Korea, I heard the Beatles sing to some Western leftist who wanted a "revolution", "you'd better free your mind instead". I liked it.

You see, I never realized that before I left Poland.
In many ways the Poles are more free than the Canadians and vice-versa. Just a fact of life.

DanaT
12-01-2012, 16:48
What about switzerland?

Dont try and do laundry after 10pm.

Dont park into your assigned parking space backwards.

Dont try and drive more than 10kmh under the speed limit.

DanaT
12-01-2012, 16:50
Switzerland is a great place to live, but it's a huge nanny state as well. (Also it's quite racist)

I have never had a problem with race in CH.

janice6
12-01-2012, 16:55
No all inclusive answer to this.

Totally depends on your interpretation of "freedom".

I bet some middle East countries consider themselves more free than you because they have to practice what they purport to believe in.

First, ask what people believe being free means. Everyone will say something different.

To me it means I want to be able to do what I want. Many will not let me do this.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 17:44
And so is the US...unbelievably racist against whites..

This is so far from the truth, it's literally laughable.

I work in a professional services firm, primarily with industrial goods clients. I visit corporate boardrooms and manufacturing facilities all the time. I'm almost always the only not-white-person there.

Yes, I think "diversity quotas" are stupid and yes, they do occasionally discriminate against white people. But to think that the US is "racist against whites" is just insane.

I've been to Switzerland, and it's an unbelievably clean, pristine, civilized country with unbelievable natural beauty and a noticeable lack of "trashy people"...

I lived in Switzerland.

And I don't think the Swiss are racist

No?

I used to stand in front of this every day at the bus stop

http://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/no-slug/23fa612e15551fe230185e5d0aa31e3a.jpg

They said that the "black sheep" wasn't intended to be racist, it's just a figure of speech, but this poster was right next to it

http://jillkurek.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/hands.jpg

Kinda hard to argue with.

A few stories for you:

1) I was in a coffee shop with a friend waiting for a concert to start once when a guy came up to us and asked if I do kung fu. Never saw him before.

2) I was walking down the street with some friends, and I had a guy come up to me and say "Nii hao." He acted all confused when I didn't say anything back to him. My Swiss friends that I was with didn't understand either. "He was just trying to be polite to you--he thought you might be Chinese." I don't walk up to random white people and try to greet them in Irish, or Swedish, or Russian.

3) I was with several girls in a bar, and this guy came and started trying to chat them up. He didn't get far with them but he didn't want to leave so he starts talking to me. He asked where I was from and I said "I'm an American" and he said "No, you're not." I asked him what the hell he meant and he pulled the corners of his eyes back with his fingers and said "they don't have these in America."

Like I said, I lived there. I know. I had a black roommate who got searched when he went across the border at least once a week for five years.

, they just want to keep their country the way it is...which we are failing at miserably..
Things change. That's how the world works. America has always changed as new people have come. People said the same kinds of things about every wave of European immigration, from the Irish to the Russian Jews to the Germans who came fleeing the turbulence of the Weimar Republic.

DanaT
12-01-2012, 17:52
I used to stand in front of this every day at the bus stop

http://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/no-slug/23fa612e15551fe230185e5d0aa31e3a.jpg

They said that the "black sheep" wasn't intended to be racist, it's just a figure of speech, but this poster was right next to it

http://jillkurek.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/hands.jpg

What I find hard to be believe about that general story is if you were standing near the top one around CERN you were either in the Canton of Vaud or Geneva. Neither of those areas are mixed language.

I would only really believe that both posters were next to each other in the Biel/Bienne train station.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 17:56
What I find hard to be believe about that general story is if you were standing near the top one around CERN you were either in the Canton of Vaud or Geneva. Neither of those areas are mixed language.


I thought it was fairly obvious that I just did a google image search for the posters; I didn't attempt to find the correct language versions of both. You are correct in deducing that these internet images are not the actual, literal posters I was standing in front of.

DanaT
12-01-2012, 17:58
I thought it was fairly obvious that I just did a google image search for the posters; I didn't attempt to find the correct language versions of both. You are correct in deducing that these internet images are not the actual, literal posters I was standing in front of.

No, I took you seriously that "this poster was right next to it".

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 18:01
No, I took you seriously that "this poster was right next to it".

The French language versions of the two posters were right next to each other.

LAWDOGKMS
12-01-2012, 21:46
This is so far from the truth, it's literally laughable.

I work in a professional services firm, primarily with industrial goods clients. I visit corporate boardrooms and manufacturing facilities all the time. I'm almost always the only not-white-person there.

Yes, I think "diversity quotas" are stupid and yes, they do occasionally discriminate against white people. But to think that the US is "racist against whites" is just insane.



I lived in Switzerland.



No?

I used to stand in front of this every day at the bus stop

http://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/no-slug/23fa612e15551fe230185e5d0aa31e3a.jpg

They said that the "black sheep" wasn't intended to be racist, it's just a figure of speech, but this poster was right next to it

http://jillkurek.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/hands.jpg

Kinda hard to argue with.

A few stories for you:

1) I was in a coffee shop with a friend waiting for a concert to start once when a guy came up to us and asked if I do kung fu. Never saw him before.

2) I was walking down the street with some friends, and I had a guy come up to me and say "Nii hao." He acted all confused when I didn't say anything back to him. My Swiss friends that I was with didn't understand either. "He was just trying to be polite to you--he thought you might be Chinese." I don't walk up to random white people and try to greet them in Irish, or Swedish, or Russian.

3) I was with several girls in a bar, and this guy came and started trying to chat them up. He didn't get far with them but he didn't want to leave so he starts talking to me. He asked where I was from and I said "I'm an American" and he said "No, you're not." I asked him what the hell he meant and he pulled the corners of his eyes back with his fingers and said "they don't have these in America."

Like I said, I lived there. I know. I had a black roommate who got searched when he went across the border at least once a week for five years.


Things change. That's how the world works. America has always changed as new people have come. People said the same kinds of things about every wave of European immigration, from the Irish to the Russian Jews to the Germans who came fleeing the turbulence of the Weimar Republic.

The signs are anti-immigration of the masses..

Switzerland is very smart..and we could learn from them..but i'm afraid it's too late for us..we're already in a downward spiral.

Switzerland is very restrictive with incoming immigrants and only takes "skilled" immigrants..very smart!

When you take in mass amounts of unskilled immigrants like we are, they burden the system and we end up paying for their medical, food, housing..

WOW! That's exactly what's happening here now, and why every year I take home less and less of my paycheck!

As to your encounters:

Sounds like people trying to be friendly and strike up a conversation with you to me..

Got a chip on your soldier?

I don't find any of that racist..

Did someone call you a chink, tell you to get lost and you're not welcome here, tell you that you couldn't ride the white bus?

I find increasingly that non-whites are so overtly hyper-sensitive that someone simply speaking to them or recognizing that they're different is construed as racism.

The closest you come in your examples to racism is the guy commenting on your asian eyes.. If I saw you in switzerland, I wouldn't assume you were american either, but an asian vacationing in europe..

America is a white-european built country, and historically, until recently you don't "look like an american" if you have asian-eyes..

Too many times I've seen familiar "outrage" by mexican guys that were born here in the US and are offended when someone expects them to speak spanish but they can't..

I find that ridiculous.. If you look like a mexican, most people expect that you're a mexican, and if you look like an asian, expect that people are going to assume you're from asia..

Nothing to get offended about..

Henry's Dad
12-01-2012, 22:11
Slightly off-topic, but George Mason does a nifty ranking of rating freedom in the 50 states:

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 23:10
The signs are anti-immigration of the masses..

There are literally white hands and black hands reaching into the box.

I don't find any of that racist..

Well, I think we just found your problem.

Did someone call you a chink, tell you to get lost and you're not welcome here, tell you that you couldn't ride the white bus?

So it's only racism if I can't ride the white bus?

Once segregation ended I guess racism was over, then. Good to know.

I find increasingly that non-whites are so overtly hyper-sensitive that someone simply speaking to them or recognizing that they're different is construed as racism.

I am the farthest from being sensitive about my "race" as anyone you'll ever meet. I was born in the US. I married a white woman (twice). I barely speak Korean.

I've only ever felt treated differently because I'm not white once or twice in my entire life in the US (even as a schoolkid). Asians don't really experience much racism here. That's why/how it was so noticeable when I lived in Europe.

If I saw you in switzerland, I wouldn't assume you were american either, but an asian vacationing in europe..

First of all, Geneva is the European headquarters of the UN, the location of several international NGOs, and the site of CERN. There are all kinds of people from all kinds of places walking around there all the time.

Secondly--the point is, it doesn't matter where I'm from. I'm in Geneva. Unless you hear me speaking another language, why would you try anything other than French?

When you see an Asian person on the street in the US, do you try talking to them in Chinese? Korean? No, you start with English unless you hear them speaking something else. If you see someone who looks Hispanic do you default to Spanish? No.

Too many times I've seen familiar "outrage" by mexican guys that were born here in the US and are offended when someone expects them to speak spanish but they can't..

I find that ridiculous.. If you look like a mexican, most people expect that you're a mexican

Do you speak German? French? Norwegian? Those are "white people" languages, right?

Besides--what does a "Mexican" look like? Mexico has people descended from escaped African slaves, indigenous Indians, and white colonial Europeans all living there.

and if you look like an asian, expect that people are going to assume you're from asia.

Maybe you do.

Almost no one has ever assumed that about me, ever, anywhere in the world. Even in Asia, oddly enough--I walk and dress like an American.

Only in Switzerland and some places in Eastern Europe has that ever happened to me.

Bruce M
12-02-2012, 05:10
Somalia is a libertarian dream land. No government to restrict your freedoms at all. But there are a few downsides....


Good point - total freedom for me to do anything I want also means total freedom for someone else to to whatever they want which may not be what I want. Total freedom may not be completely wonderful in an unstable society without the systems, facilities, professions, etc. we may need for a good life. I am sure one does not have to worry about reporting a $10000 cash deposit to the bank in alot of places; but one might need to worry if the bank will be there when it comes time for a withdrawal.

Bren
12-02-2012, 05:31
Until the legal drinking age goes back to a relaxed 18, it isn't the USA. HH

Yeah, that's the important measure of freedom.:upeyes:

Let me guess, you recently turned 18?

Most freedom was Somalia, a few years ago. Most freedom in a reasonably safe place is the USA - sadly, as much as we have lost, the entire civilized world has lost more.

snowbird
12-02-2012, 06:22
Things change.

This is true.

And change isn't always for the better, especially when 'political correctness' is involved.

Question: do you think TSA agents at U.S. airports, in the name of 'diversity' and 'no-profiling', should spend equal amounts of time pawing in a 90-year-old white spinster's bloomers as they might with the 20-year-old, bearded Yemeni madrassah alumnus?

glockski
12-02-2012, 06:28
how is one monitored when they use cash? off the top of my head all i can come up with is a reciept that would link you to the purchase or what have you, but still that cash makes you anonymous
Try to purchase a new car with cash

DanaT
12-02-2012, 07:24
DD. There is one thing that you are somewhat being deceptive about. The posters, are at a minimum overtly racist and probably openly racist. But what you are being deceptive about are those are political posters asking someone to vote for an initiative. Almost all laws are direct vote so to pass anything anti-immigration they need to get it through a direct vote.

You would have to admit that if there was a direct vote of an anti-immigration bill introduced into the USA, you would see racist posters in the USA also. So saying a country is racist based upon political posters, even if the posters do exist, is somewhat deceptive.

mac66
12-02-2012, 09:36
Back on topic,

If you subscribe to the idea that liberty/freedom is the consequence of less government control then anarchy is the ultimate freedom. Somalia, or other countries without any effective government, therefore may be the freest country.

On the other hand, as we see in Somalia, you may be free from government control but not from the warlords who are often more repressive than a government. They have the power, they make the rules and you have no recourse except get a bigger army than they have.

It would suffice to say that the farther you are from central control/government the more freedom you tend to have regardless of the country you live in.

DanaT
12-02-2012, 09:39
Back on topic,

If you subscribe to the idea that liberty/freedom is the consequence of less government control then anarchy is the ultimate freedom. Somalia, or other countries without any effective government, therefore may be the freest country.

On the other hand, as we see in Somalia, you may be free from government control but not from the warlords who are often more repressive than a government. They have the power, they make the rules and you have no recourse except get a bigger army than they have.

It would suffice to say that the farther you are from central control/government the more freedom you tend to have regardless of the country you live in.

By definition, if a warlord makes the rules its is not anarchy. It is a different form of govt.

RonS
12-02-2012, 09:53
I'll see if I can locate the Jeff Cooper piece on the difference between liberty and freedom.

Somalia has a weak government. That is just what you don't want, you want a strong, effective government that is limited by a constitution and laws to only doing what you want it to do.

We had that and pissed it away during the Civil War and Great Depression. Now we have a government with few limits that is overreaching itself. Once the time comes when they totally fail to do what the people need and expect from it we can scrap it and start over. The odds on that being an improvement make playing the Powerball look good.

The slave of a careless master may have a lot of freedom, but still no liberty.

RedsoxFan4Lyfe
12-02-2012, 10:33
I think that "freedom" is what our parents and grandparent grew up with here in America. I think that "freedom" is what America used to be.

I still believe we are more free than most other countries, but to what extent I do not know. There are more and more government restrictions and monitoring of everything that we do. There is definitely a change in America, and not for the better in my opinion. Even in the last ten years, as a relatively young man of 34 years of age I am personally horrified at some of the things I have seen and am currently seeing.

The entitlement mindset and the handout segment of this country are literally killing us financially. It goes with a certain political ideology which I won't begin to go into, but many here will know to what I am referring I am sure.

We need less government, less taxes and more free market in this nation if it is to be saved. Sadly I just don't see that happening. There are far too many people on the handout train. Far too many people feel they are literally OWED something. I'll never know how one can have such a mindset. My mother and father were both very hard working people. We grew up with very little, and my parents would not even consider a handout. The shame was too great. Their pride was too high. Handouts were for other people, not them. We had what was earned, not what was given to us. That mindset is all but dead it would appear.

America as we know it and knew it may soon be gone forever.

If this country is to be saved and made great again then they need to get an immediate handle on spending, handouts and benefits spending, and illegal immigration as well. Sad as it is, there are too many people here and not enough jobs to sustain us all it would seem. If there are 30 MILLION illegals here as some estimate then that is a massive drain on resources that we just can't absorb. Something needs to be done. Sadly, nothing will be done is what I fear. :crying:

HollowHead
12-02-2012, 10:38
Care to elaborate?

Around here I am scanned and photographed everywhere I go.

A township cop often sits at an intersection close by my house.

He scans tens of thousands of plates. If you have a suspended license and the car belongs to you, you will be walking for a year.

You are tracked by your phone.

What you post or view on the internet can be used against you if it ever came to that.

There is nothing sinister about it as long as the government is our friend.

Every single illustration above is directly a result of choices you have made on your own volution. People select their level of freedom. HH

HollowHead
12-02-2012, 10:51
Yeah, that's the important measure of freedom.:upeyes:


Actually, the bump to nineteen and then twenty-one in the early eighties was the pivotal event in America's downward slide in personal freedoms. It was the start of this whole, "But, but, but think of the children!" mentality. HH

Bruce M
12-02-2012, 11:15
Oddly I would have thought the Gun Control Act of 1968 was the pivotal event. Or maybe the Social Security Act in 1935 was the turning point. Or maybe the Eighteenth Amendment in 1919 was the pivotal event, if alcohol is going to be the barometer. Maybe the Sixteenth Amendment was the turning point. But I am unconvinced that raising the drinking age is the critical juncture in changes in our personal freedoms, especially since we also tried the whole Prohibition thing a few decades before we messed with the drinking age.

Slug71
12-02-2012, 11:50
Most freedom in a reasonably safe place is the USA - sadly, as much as we have lost, the entire civilized world has lost more.

I disagree.