Are 401ks at risk now? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Landmonster
12-01-2012, 10:20
This is a serious question. Are private 401ks at risk now... of some sort of government confiscation or re-distribution plan?

How can we tell? And when will it be too late to protect yourself if the government does decide to confiscate such plans?

tous
12-01-2012, 10:24
When the hippie socialists get around to conficating private property, your 401k account, there will be no place where they can't get it.

You didn't build it and what's yours is really theirs.

JBnTX
12-01-2012, 10:28
Obama is considering the nationalization of private retirement accounts like 401Ks and IRAs.

They would all be placed in one big pot and the money then allocated out as needed.

Of course, the government would confiscate more than their share.
Which would then bankrupt the system, just like social security.

If you're over age 59 1/2, take the money out and pay the tax,
while tax rates are still low.

Then put half in gold/silver and put half into cash.
Take possession of the gold/silver half and bury it in your back yard.
Put the cash in your mattress.

Once double digit inflation hits and bank savings accounts are paying 9-10 percent, like they did in the 1970's, then put the cash in the bank.

Let the gold/silver set. Use it last.

..

Landmonster
12-01-2012, 10:30
Right now I don’t know if there is anything to be scared about... yet.

We can’t control or predict the future, so the best course of action is probably to continue preparing the best we can based on the information we have at hand.

This means to continue making investments based on current tax laws, while being mindful of possible changes. Personally, I am preparing for retirement by investing in my 401k and IRA, and I am also investing in taxable (non-retirement) investments when I can.

I don’t think it’s wise to let fear and unsubstantiated rumors drive one’s investments and retirement planning. On the other hand... there's a lot of crap happening in the USA that I never thought would happen.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 10:31
Not one shred of evidence of this other than the tin-foil conspiracy theorists.

I could write a dissertation on why not. In another post I practically did.

Landmonster
12-01-2012, 10:31
Obama is considering the nationalization of private retirement accounts like 401Ks and IRA.

They would all be placed in one big pot and the money then allocated out as needed.

Of course, the government would confiscate their share also.

Do you have any sources on this?

What if a person has like $300k saved, vs. a guy who has $15k saved? Would it just be distributed equally to them both?

aircarver
12-01-2012, 10:34
Do you have any sources on this?

What if a person has like $300k saved, vs. a guy who has $15k saved? Would it just be distributed equally to them both?

... From each, according to his ability...

....to each, according to his needs ... :whistling:

.

tous
12-01-2012, 10:35
Do you have any sources on this?

What if a person has like $300k saved, vs. a guy who has $15k saved? Would it just be distributed equally to them both?

You apparently don't underdstand modern hippie socialism. 'Their' funds will be allocated based one's lack of ability for critical thinking, how much free stuff you are already receiving from the goverment and whether you are a member of a public service employee union.

The more you take, they more they'll give you until they run out of other people's money to steal.

M&P15T
12-01-2012, 10:36
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Good Lord!!!

We need some tinfoil hats in these parts!!!

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 10:37
Do you have any sources on this?

What if a person has like $300k saved, vs. a guy who has $15k saved? Would it just be distributed equally to them both?

Yes, Please.

Post a a reliable source... Please.
(hint... there isn't one)

meathead19
12-01-2012, 10:40
Not one shred of evidence of this other than the tin-foil conspiracy theorists.

I could write a dissertation on why not. In another post I practically did.

Really??? They forced Obummer care down our throats....who says they won't come after something else they want?

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 10:41
The scum politicians have run up the debt to the point where they will have no choice but to sieze the 401k's. This will be the last ditch effort to kick the can down the road. If you don't think it will happen then apparently you don't know that obama won the election. The deadbeats won. We are in an economic death spriral.

M&P15T
12-01-2012, 10:43
The scum politicians have run up the debt to the point where they will have no choice but to sieze the 401k's. This will be the last ditch effort to kick the can down the road. If you don't think it will happen then apparently you don't know that obama won the election. The deadbeats won. We are in an economic death spriral.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I really had no idea that Chicken Little joined G.T.

JBnTX
12-01-2012, 10:44
Do you have any sources on this?

What if a person has like $300k saved, vs. a guy who has $15k saved? Would it just be distributed equally to them both?

Do a Google search, it's all over the internet.

401(k) IRA Nationalization *** Quietly Moves Forward - YouTube

Mark Levin interviews Dr Ghilarducci about nationalizing 401K's (Part 1) - YouTube

..

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 10:45
Really??? They forced Obummer care down our throats....who says they won't come after something else they want?


That is speculation not evidence.

Here is the difference:

I can speculate you wear women's panties and a tutu at night.
But, I have no evidence of it.

JBnTX, this applies to you also. Evidence is not a blog or commentary.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 10:46
Not one shred of evidence of this other than the tin-foil conspiracy theorists.


I don't think we're anywhere near a point where the government could just confiscate our 401k's, but I can easily see the tax code being "changed" to effectively steal a big chunk of it.

Ragnar
12-01-2012, 10:48
We can’t control or predict the future

Actually, we had the opportunity to control the future but blew it by re-electing Obama.

As for predicting it, we will get more of what we just had for the last 4 years.

I put nothing beyond the Obama regime, including confiscatory tax rates or practices.

aircarver
12-01-2012, 10:50
They have an insatiable need for money, and will seek it wherever it is ...

.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 10:51
I don't think we're anywhere near a point where the government could just confiscate our 401k's, but I can easily see the tax code being "changed" to effectively steal a big chunk of it.



DD, exactly. You are a man with a rational thought process.

427
12-01-2012, 10:52
http://nation.foxnews.com/public-pension-funds/2011/05/23/watch-out-feds-could-seize-your-private-retirement-savings

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49976741

meathead19
12-01-2012, 10:54
That is speculation not evidence.

Here is the difference:

I can speculate you wear women's panties and a tutu at night.
But, I have no evidence of it.

JBnTX, this applies to you also. Evidence is not a blog or commentary.

We get it....you love the dear leader. :faint:

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 10:58
We get it....you love the dear leader.

Let me ask you a serious question: why would you post something so stupid?

Jonesee has only posted a couple of lines in this thread. None of them even begin to talk about President Obama (who I assume is the "dear leader" you mention). There is absolutely no evidence of any kind that he "loves" the "dear leader."

Why would you jump to that conclusion?

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 10:58
We get it....you love the dear leader. :faint:


Nope, I didn't vote for him

What I do is use rational well thought out logic to offset irrational speculation and baseless commentary as fact. (Even on GNG)

The OP asked an honest question. DeviDog and I gave him a honest, rational, answer.

meathead19
12-01-2012, 11:00
Let me ask you a serious question: why would you post something so stupid?

Jonesee has only posted a couple of lines in this thread. None of them even begin to talk about President Obama (who I assume is the "dear leader" you mention). There is absolutely no evidence of any kind that he "loves" the "dear leader."

Why would you jump to that conclusion?

Sorrrrry.....Geez, you can love dear leader too.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 11:02
They have an insatiable need for money, and will seek it wherever it is ...

But 401ks aren't "money."

Mine is in a broker-administered account, and it's in equities. Equities are stock certificates. In order to convert them to cash, it's necessary to sell them.

If I decide to pull my money out of my 401k, the brokerage house sells the stock and gives me the money. No big deal.

If EVERYONE decided to pull their money out of their 401k... there wouldn't be anyone to sell the stocks to. Stock prices would crater.

It's not possible to convert all of the nation's 401ks into cash.

On the other hand, the reason we're all locked into 401k accounts is that they're tax advantaged. I put pre-tax money into mine and I can't touch it until I'm retirement aged without paying a penalty. When I pull it out I'll get taxed. Therefore, the government could easily steal my money by "changing" the tax code between now and then. I can think of dozens of effective ways to do so: they could institute a sliding tax rate on 401k balances, for instance (the more in your account, the higher % of taxes you pay).

That's different from simple confiscation of 401k accounts.

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 11:09
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I really had no idea that Chicken Little joined G.T.

rather than counter anything I said you call me chicken little. so tell me mr economics, how do we balance the budget, pay down the debt and not touch SS,medicare and obamacare? If you think the path we are on is sustainable you are either insane, have a very low IQ or die hard democrat. Our unfunded liabilities are $120,000,000,000,000. The total of world GDP is around 65 trillion. Just tell me where will we get the money?

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 11:11
Once again: 401ks are NOT MONEY. Try reading my post (the last post on the previous page).

meathead19
12-01-2012, 11:17
rather than counter anything I said you call me chicken little. so tell me mr economics, how do we balance the budget, pay down the debt and not touch SS,medicare and obamacare? If you think the path we are on is sustainable you are either insane, have a very low IQ or die hard democrat. Our unfunded liabilities are $120,000,000,000,000. The total of world GDP is around 65 trillion. Just tell me where will we get the money?

You're wasting your time trying to talk any sense into these kind of folks.

It's all semantics....confiscating, taking, stealing. One way or another, they'll go after it.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 11:24
You're wasting your time trying to talk any sense into these kind of folks.

It's all semantics....confiscating, taking, stealing. One way or another, they'll go after it.

Still looking for a factual citation being posted that supports a plan to confiscate 401K's.

Pretty simple request if it exists.
(but remember the difference in speculation and evidence...)

4 glocks
12-01-2012, 11:25
The Goverment gets about 30% of it now when you cash it out. I could see them raising the tax on them.

JBnTX
12-01-2012, 11:26
Still looking for a factual citation being posted that supports a plan to confiscate 401K's.

Pretty simple request if it exists.
(but remember the difference in speculation and evidence...)

Google is your friend.

M&P15T
12-01-2012, 11:30
rather than counter anything I said you call me chicken little. so tell me mr economics, how do we balance the budget, pay down the debt and not touch SS,medicare and obamacare? If you think the path we are on is sustainable you are either insane, have a very low IQ or die hard democrat. Our unfunded liabilities are $120,000,000,000,000. The total of world GDP is around 65 trillion. Just tell me where will we get the money?

People have already highlighted how incoherent your ideas are, but you refuse to listen. So why, exactly, would I bother trying?

Look, there's no doubt we are in a ****-load of trouble, no doubt at all. But, if the Federal Government were to get to the point of desperation that they were boldly, litterally , stealing from us, they wouldn't be around for long.

Can you imagine a more unifying action than the Government stealing people's retirement funds? Democrats and Republicans and everyone in-between would go ape-****. Revolution would happen.

They know this, they're not that stupid.

May they start taxing 401ks? Sure. Steal them? LOL!! No.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 11:33
Google is your friend.

You claimed it JB, you own the statement. Prove it.

I will give you a hint though, it doesn't exist outside blogs and political commentary.

But please enlighten me. I am always willing to admit I am wrong and learn something new.


You took ownership of the fact. Prove it.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 11:34
It is certainly possible for the tax advantages associated with a 401K changing in a negative way, but this other talk doesn't even make practical sense.

meathead19
12-01-2012, 11:37
It is certainly possible for the tax advantages associated with a 401K changing in a negative way, but this other talk doesn't even make practical sense.

Neither does Obummer care, but it happened.

Russ in PA
12-01-2012, 11:37
It is certainly possible for the tax advantages associated with a 401K changing in a negative way, but this other talk doesn't even make practical sense.

Perfectly stated.

Restless28
12-01-2012, 11:44
Taxation is theft at the barrel of a gun.

FullClip
12-01-2012, 11:45
I sure ain't a financial adviser, but I've got 5 more years before I can start drawing down on my 401Ks. I hope that the promises about the tax due on them when the time comes is kept.
In the mean time, I've stopped contributing to them and using the extra cash to invest in other things that I have immediate control over, can see and touch, not a paper statement sent 4 times a year.
Wise planning? I don't know, but I think I sleep a little better at night because of it.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 11:46
Neither does Obummer care, but it happened.

Obamacare did not nationalize privately held assets. According to Obama it was a fee/penalty, according to the Supreme Court it is a tax.

Has the government taken anything you own to pay for Obamacare? They will be taking income from you to pay for it, but again, that is taxation not nationalization of an asset.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 11:46
Neither does Obummer care, but it happened.

Obamacare is a horrible idea, but there are plenty of models around the world that show the path to implement it.

There is no practical way to nationalize 401ks. Read DDs posts, he is dead on. They aren't bank accounts.

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 11:48
MP15 your right the government has never stole anything and has always been honest and forthright with the people. my apologies.

meathead19
12-01-2012, 11:54
Obamacare did not nationalize privately held assets. According to Obama it was a fee/penalty, according to the Supreme Court it is a tax.

Has the government taken anything you own to pay for Obamacare? They will be taking income from you to pay for it, but again, that is taxation not nationalization of an asset.

I dont need the gov't to take anymore of anything from me....not hard to understand.

M&P15T
12-01-2012, 11:55
MP15 your right the government has never stole anything and has always been honest and forthright with the people. my apologies.

I think you joined GT thinking you were going to meet a bunch of ultra right-wing looneys that are sitting around cleaning their weapons waiting for an excuse to revolt against the Federal Government.

Sorry buddy.

JBnTX
12-01-2012, 11:55
You claimed it JB, you own the statement. Prove it.

You took ownership of the fact. Prove it.


Your proof will be when it happens.
Just remember you were warned.

Obama will confiscate every penny he can to pay for his spending, and your 401K is on the table.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 11:57
I dont need the gov't to take anymore of anything from me....not hard to understand.

I can agree with that.

I'm just raining on the misinformation parade today...

2bgop
12-01-2012, 11:58
Your proof will be when it happens.
Just remember you were warned.

Obama will confiscate every penny he can to pay for his spending, and your 401K is on the table.

What is going to do with the stocks he takes from 401ks? How does he turn stocks into cash?

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 11:59
Your proof will be when it happens.
Just remember you were warned.

Obama will confiscate every penny he can to pay for his spending, and your 401K is on the table.

OK, is it fair to call your claim "JB's 401K Nationalization Prediction" then?

We sure haven't seen a shred of proof.

To the OP: If you believe JB's prediction is well founded and accurate, you should sell your 401K assets, close your 401K plan, pay the penalty and taxes due as a start. After that, get more advice on GNG on what to do with what funds are remaining.

The mods can close this thread up. It is settled.

JohnBT
12-01-2012, 12:02
"Still looking for a factual citation being posted that supports a plan to confiscate 401K's."

There isn't any evidence. It's all some paranoid fantasy they've dreamed up or read about in somebody's paranoid scribblings.

czsmithGT
12-01-2012, 12:06
I don't think we're anywhere near a point where the government could just confiscate our 401k's, but I can easily see the tax code being "changed" to effectively steal a big chunk of it.

Yes, outright seizure of people's retirement 401K assets is not likely, at least not anytime soon. The social engineers do, however, have plans to make 401K go away in favor of GRAs. This would be a step towards allowing government control of your retirement assets. Could be they would "borrow" your money to meet their obligations much as Geithner "borrowed" federal employee retirement fund assets in the past.


http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/29/401k-foe-teresa-ghilarducci-the-most-dangerous-woman-in-america

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/treasury-to-tap-pensions-to-help-fund-government/2011/05/15/AF2fqK4G_story.html

Hawkeye16
12-01-2012, 12:18
You people are ridiculous. As someone that works with retirement accounts, there is zero possibility of that happening.

The money is held by companies and taking it would create a big hit to financials and possibly bankrupt companies that have a lot more than retirement accounts on their books.

There is absolutely zero possibility of your existing account being confiscated.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Hawkeye16
12-01-2012, 12:21
Your proof will be when it happens.
Just remember you were warned.

Obama will confiscate every penny he can to pay for his spending, and your 401K is on the table.

Your 401k isn't even "on the table" when you file bankruptcy. It is a protected asset that they can it touch, it is yours even if you have huge debts. You have no idea what you are talking about.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

2bgop
12-01-2012, 12:22
You people are ridiculous. As someone that works with retirement accounts, there is zero possibility of that happening.

The money is held by companies and taking it would create a big hit to financials and possibly bankrupt companies that have a lot more than retirement accounts on their books.

There is absolutely zero possibility of your existing account being confiscated.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Stop posting about crap you understand. It is totally possible, someone heard about it from someone else. Cash out and buy tomato seeds.

nmk
12-01-2012, 12:24
I think you joined GT thinking you were going to meet a bunch of ultra right-wing looneys that are sitting around cleaning their weapons waiting for an excuse to revolt against the Federal Government.

Sorry buddy.

Those types are here and they're easy to spot. When you challenge them on anything they post you are accused of loving Obama or being a closet socialist. It doesn't matter how inaccurate their posts were...

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 12:25
You people are ridiculous. As someone that works with retirement accounts, there is zero possibility of that happening.

The money is held by companies and taking it would create a big hit to financials and possibly bankrupt companies that have a lot more than retirement accounts on their books.

There is absolutely zero possibility of your existing account being confiscated.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)


Do tell

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 12:46
A more likely scenario is a heavy “fairness” tax on 401Ks.

They will call it the Social Security Preservation Act.

Of course this will end the 401K.

We will soon see if the House has some backbone to stop this runaway spending, but if we continue on the present course we will experience hyperinflation maybe in the next 5-7 years; nobody really knows exactly when it will hit other than it will hit.

At that point your 401K will be worthless.

Does anyone with a 10+ year timeline think this $16 Trillion debt and counting is going to all work out?

Everyone is playing a game of musical chairs making a paper fortune, but when the music stops the survivors will have already converted to hard assets.

Oh, and Argentina, Hungary, Ireland…raided retirement accounts.

After Obama Care was illegally rammed through and Obama rewarded with a second term all bets are off.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 12:52
After Obama Care was illegally rammed through and Obama rewarded with a second term all bets are off.

Wait, huh, what???
I thought the Supreme Court affirmed it and it was settled law?

Damn, I actually slept last night and something changed...

G-Lock808
12-01-2012, 12:54
But 401ks aren't "money."

Mine is in a broker-administered account, and it's in equities. Equities are stock certificates. In order to convert them to cash, it's necessary to sell them.

If I decide to pull my money out of my 401k, the brokerage house sells the stock and gives me the money. No big deal.

If EVERYONE decided to pull their money out of their 401k... there wouldn't be anyone to sell the stocks to. Stock prices would crater.

It's not possible to convert all of the nation's 401ks into cash.

On the other hand, the reason we're all locked into 401k accounts is that they're tax advantaged. I put pre-tax money into mine and I can't touch it until I'm retirement aged without paying a penalty. When I pull it out I'll get taxed. Therefore, the government could easily steal my money by "changing" the tax code between now and then. I can think of dozens of effective ways to do so: they could institute a sliding tax rate on 401k balances, for instance (the more in your account, the higher % of taxes you pay).

That's different from simple confiscation of 401k accounts.


While the majority of people will have a large allocation to equities in their 401k, cash can be held in a 401k.

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 12:57
Another way to look at this is the way healthcare was handled.

The government decided because 46 million did not have health insurance, the other 250 million with insurance needed to have their healthcare ruined.

When Social Security goes bankrupt (and it will, no tin foil needed) the takers desperate for money will vote to take 401Ks, or whatever they can to sustain the Government transfer payments.

Just like a drowning man will often pull the rescuer under and drown him too.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 13:00
While the majority of people will have a large allocation to equities in their 401k, cash can be held in a 401k.

True in principle. But in reality, not much is held in cash.

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 13:02
Another way to look at this is the way healthcare was handled.

The government decided because 46 million did not have health insurance, the other 250 million with insurance needed to have their healthcare ruined.

When Social Security goes bankrupt (and it will, no tin foil needed) the takers desperate for money will vote to take 401Ks, or whatever they can to sustain the Government transfer payments.

Just like a drowning man will often pull the rescuer under and drown him too.


So you are signing up for JB's "401K Nationalization Prediction"

This is how grassroots movements begin. One man with an idea that gains traction and grows.

HexHead
12-01-2012, 13:05
I don't think we're anywhere near a point where the government could just confiscate our 401k's, but I can easily see the tax code being "changed" to effectively steal a big chunk of it.

It would,be extremely easy for them to lower the Required Minimum Distribution age, and increase the percentages you must take out.

I foresee them making Roth IRA distributions taxable before going after IRA or especially 401k funds, looking to nationalize them.

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 13:10
Wait, huh, what???
I thought the Supreme Court affirmed it and it was settled law?

Damn, I actually slept last night and something changed...
The Democrats used an illegal reconciliation used only for budgets to ram Obama Care through using dead Ted Kennedy’s old vote. 60% do not want Obama Care.

Justice Roberts changed his mind at the last minute as he felt intimidated to do so.

Joe Biden said this was a big ‘effin deal and it was. This changed the whole tenor of the Country; after that all bets are off. Now that the gubbermint can force you to buy something they can do anything.

And the 2012 election affirmed the takers are in control; tyranny of the masses.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 13:12
Another way to look at this is the way healthcare was handled.

The government decided because 46 million did not have health insurance, the other 250 million with insurance needed to have their healthcare ruined.

When Social Security goes bankrupt (and it will, no tin foil needed) the takers desperate for money will vote to take 401Ks, or whatever they can to sustain the Government transfer payments.

Just like a drowning man will often pull the rescuer under and drown him too.

Buy how do you take them? They are primarily stock, what do you do once you take them. If we are the point where the fed gov takes the retirement of millions and millions, what do you think it will be worth? The answer is zero, there isn't a way to take them from people and convert them to cash.

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 13:13
To all you that say "it can't happen here", it is apparent you have never studied history. By chance did any of you own GM bonds or stocks? Was that done "by the book"? oh, I forgot "It can't happen here".

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 13:24
So you are signing up for JB's "401K Nationalization Prediction"

This is how grassroots movements begin. One man with an idea that gains traction and grows.
When CNBC has an article about the threat to 401Ks, it is on the radar screen.

As for me, I continue to play the musical chair game while the gettin is good but I am not planning on a normal retirement account by the time it is my turn. By that time the baby boomers will have depleted everything.

They will not nationalize 401ks but they will get the money somehow.

Inflation is the answer. It is the only answer for the Government at this point. It solves the problems of all debtors; underwater mortgagees, underwater students and the GOV being the largest.

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 13:25
To all you that say "it can't happen here", it is apparent you have never studied history. By chance did any of you own GM bonds or stocks? Was that done "by the book"? oh, I forgot "It can't happen here".
GM bond holders - evil.

Union officials - good.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 13:26
To all you that say "it can't happen here", it is apparent you have never studied history. By chance did any of you own GM bonds or stocks? Was that done "by the book"? oh, I forgot "It can't happen here".

Ok, I will ask you, no one else is going to answer me. How would the feds convert the stocks taken from everyone's 401k into cash? What would happen to the value of those stocks once confiscated by the feds?

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 13:31
Buy how do you take them? They are primarily stock, what do you do once you take them. If we are the point where the fed gov takes the retirement of millions and millions, what do you think it will be worth? The answer is zero, there isn't a way to take them from people and convert them to cash.
Just a valid rumor of 401k confiscation would cause such a run to tank the stock market and make 1929 a fond memory.

No, they will not take it but they will tax it. It is an unfair tax shelter of the “rich”.

The more fortunate among us must pay a little more to balance the budget.

After all, the .gov does not spend too much; it lets those greedy rich folks get away without paying their fair share.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 13:37
Just a valid rumor of 401k confiscation would cause such a run to tank the stock market and make 1929 a fond memory.

No, they will not take it but they will tax it. It is an unfair tax shelter of the “rich”.

The more fortunate among us must pay a little more to balance the budget.

After all, the .gov does not spend too much; it lets those greedy rich folks get away without paying their fair share.

That is much more realistic and absolutely doable, the crazy ass confiscation talk is ridiculous.

Flying-Dutchman
12-01-2012, 13:42
That is much more realistic and absolutely doable, the crazy ass confiscation talk is ridiculous.
And remember, the Republicans control the House. Nothing will happen to 401Ks unless the Democrats get a super majority. So we are safe for the next 2 years. Then look for gun control too, if the Dems win all three branches.

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 13:47
That is much more realistic and absolutely doable, the crazy ass confiscation talk is ridiculous.


If you can't figure out that taxing something is confiscation then I don't know what to tell you, college boy.

czsmithGT
12-01-2012, 13:49
Ok, I will ask you, no one else is going to answer me. How would the feds convert the stocks taken from everyone's 401k into cash? What would happen to the value of those stocks once confiscated by the feds?

How? How did Geithner "borrow" from a government employee retirement fund to skirt the debt ceiling limit?

http://nation.foxnews.com/debt-ceiling/2011/05/16/geithner-dipping-pensions-us-hits-debt-limit

"Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner has informed members of Congress that, with the U.S. government reaching its $14.3 trillion debt ceiling Monday, his department will have to turn to a string of last-resort measures so that the government can keep paying its bills. At the top of the list is a plan to suspend investments to two government employee retirement funds, while borrowing from one of them."

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 13:55
If you can't figure out that taxing something is confiscation then I don't know what to tell you, college boy.

You know you're talking to an idiot when they think "college boy" is an insult.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 13:58
By chance did any of you own GM bonds or stocks? Was that done "by the book"?

Yes, actually, it was.

Equity holders got wiped out. That's what happens in bankruptcy. That's what's SUPPOSED to happen. Equity is always subordinate to debt, debtholders get paid first.

The "government bailout" part was the part where the unions got to keep their pension funds.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 14:00
How? How did Geithner "borrow" from a government employee retirement fund to skirt the debt ceiling limit?

The "government employee retirement fund" isn't a 401k. People who save into FERS have the option of "investing" through TSP into a fund called the G fund, which is not equities. It's a type of government security that's essentially cash. That's why it could be raided.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 14:03
How? How did Geithner "borrow" from a government employee retirement fund to skirt the debt ceiling limit?

http://nation.foxnews.com/debt-ceiling/2011/05/16/geithner-dipping-pensions-us-hits-debt-limit

"Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner has informed members of Congress that, with the U.S. government reaching its $14.3 trillion debt ceiling Monday, his department will have to turn to a string of last-resort measures so that the government can keep paying its bills. At the top of the list is a plan to suspend investments to two government employee retirement funds, while borrowing from one of them."

Ok, so let's say the feds confiscate all the 401k's. They can take the cash that exists within the account, which is an extremely small percentage of the total assets. What do they do with the actual stock? How do they convert the stock into cash?

Taking cash, borrowed cash to be honest, and not paying into some fed workers retirement is not at all applicable to confiscating privately owned stock.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 14:09
You know you're talking to an idiot when they think "college boy" is an insult.

Funny part, he has no idea what I do for a living.

czsmithGT
12-01-2012, 14:33
Ok, so let's say the feds confiscate all the 401k's. They can take the cash that exists within the account, which is an extremely small percentage of the total assets. What do they do with the actual stock? How do they convert the stock into cash?

Taking cash, borrowed cash to be honest, and not paying into some fed workers retirement is not at all applicable to confiscating privately owned stock.

To be fair I never said the government will confiscate all 401Ks. What I believe is that they will eventually make investing in 401Ks untenable and instead drive people to invest in GRAs which the government will have as much control over as they have with Federal Retiree pension funds.

The Federal Government's thirst for money to spend (whether under Democratic or Republican control) is virtually unlimited.

RonS
12-01-2012, 14:34
Think of the effect of inflation on savings. You have $100,000 in an account. Now it will buy a house, in five years it will buy a truck, in ten it will buy a cheeseburger and small fries. They don't need to steal it to redistribute it, just make it worthless and keep giving away phones and food stamps and subsidized housing. Pretty soon everyone is equally poor.

cgwahl
12-01-2012, 14:39
My guess is, the worse that can or will happen is you can't invest in a 401k plan anymore. Whatever money you have in it already will stay there (since it is held in a brokerage) and will be taxed when you take it out.

Same with the worriers over ROTH IRAs not being tax free when you take it out. You have whatever you stuck in it, just can't add to it.


To do otherwise, would possibly cause riots.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 14:40
To be fair I never said the government will confiscate all 401Ks. What I believe is that they will eventually make investing in 401Ks untenable and instead drive people to invest in GRAs which the government will have as much control over as they have with Federal Retiree pension funds.

The Federal Government's thirst for money to spend (whether under Democratic or Republican control) is virtually unlimited.

That is very true, sometimes it is better than others, but the trend line is always headed north.

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 14:42
Funny part, he has no idea what I do for a living.


I was trying to be funny but the joke fizzed.

:rollsmiley:

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 14:50
So the bottom line is we have nothing to worry about. Our 401ks are safe and obama will bring us prosperity. Thanks guys,I feel better already.

flyover
12-01-2012, 14:54
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the old saw, "Where there is a will, there is a way."? No, the .Gov won't confiscate 401k's but don't think for a minute that they won't tax the living daylight out of them.

czsmithGT
12-01-2012, 14:57
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the old saw, "Where there is a will, there is a way."? No, the .Gov won't confiscate 401k's but don't think for a minute that they won't tax the living daylight out of them.

Every one gotta pony up their "fair share".

G29Reload
12-01-2012, 15:11
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Good Lord!!!

We need some tinfoil hats in these parts!!!

Its for real and has been discussed on the floor of the House.

Levin did a story on this the other night.

It would take the House to do it, so not for the forseeable future.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 15:11
So the bottom line is we have nothing to worry about. Our 401ks are safe and obama will bring us prosperity. Thanks guys,I feel better already.

Where in the 4 pages of this thread did anyone say that?

hammerkill
12-01-2012, 15:38
Where in the 4 pages of this thread did anyone say that?


You said the gov can't sieze our 401Ks. Devil dog said I was an idiot so I concede to you're superior intellects. You win the debate, I lost. Instead of getting huffy and puffy about it you should be proud. I got taken down a peg.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 15:40
You said the gov can't sieze our 401Ks. Devil dog said I was an idiot so I concede to you're superior intellects. You win the debate, I lost. Instead of getting huffy and puffy about it you should be proud. I got taken down a peg.

Got it.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 15:47
Instead of getting huffy and puffy about it you should be proud. I got taken down a peg.

"Huffy and puffy"? You're acting like a child. My 9-year-old is more mature than that.

No one said or implied that our 401(k)s are fine or that Obama will bring us prosperity. In fact I spend quite a bit of time worrying about the government figuring out a way to screw me out of my retirement savings.

What I and some others have said is, "screwing me out of my retirement savings" isn't as simple as "stealing" or "nationalizing" private retirement accounts. It doesn't--can't--work that way. Retirement accounts are not, generally, just piggy banks. It's more complicated than that.

In some ways that's scarier, since the more complicated a government scheme to steal our savings is, the less likely it will be recognized for what it really is.

Having someone point out to you that the truth is more complicated than you want it to be shouldn't result in a childish tantrum. Why do you want to be that guy?

Jonesee
12-01-2012, 15:55
Its for real and has been discussed on the floor of the House.

Levin did a story on this the other night.

It would take the House to do it, so not for the forseeable future.

Pull it out of the Congressional Record and prove it or it didn't happen.
No one has proven it yet. Take your best shot.

Everything discussed on the floor of the house becomes part of the record. It should be easy for you.

Here, I will give you a head start:
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.php

Blogs and political commentaries don't count.

dino1
12-01-2012, 15:59
"Well we just have to pass the law to see what's in it" remember that one???

I can't wait till we move from "income" taxes to "wealth" taxes, that should shut warren buffet up.

There's not enough income out there to fund the .gov, so soon I think they will come looking at wealth, property, ect.

Ragnar
12-01-2012, 16:03
Buy how do you take them? They are primarily stock, what do you do once you take them. If we are the point where the fed gov takes the retirement of millions and millions, what do you think it will be worth? The answer is zero, there isn't a way to take them from people and convert them to cash.

You don't have to "take" them. Simply raise fees and taxes on withdrawals.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 16:09
You don't have to "take" them. Simply raise fees and taxes on withdrawals.

Yes clearly, that is not what people were claiming. The thought that each of these accounts has something in it of value if taken en masse by the gov what I am talking about.

There are literally countless ways for the feds to squeeze more money out of us. My point is confiscating hundreds of billions in privately held stock is not one of them.

Z71bill
12-01-2012, 16:10
But 401ks aren't "money."

Mine is in a broker-administered account, and it's in equities. Equities are stock certificates. In order to convert them to cash, it's necessary to sell them.

If I decide to pull my money out of my 401k, the brokerage house sells the stock and gives me the money. No big deal.

If EVERYONE decided to pull their money out of their 401k... there wouldn't be anyone to sell the stocks to. Stock prices would crater.

It's not possible to convert all of the nation's 401ks into cash.

On the other hand, the reason we're all locked into 401k accounts is that they're tax advantaged. I put pre-tax money into mine and I can't touch it until I'm retirement aged without paying a penalty. When I pull it out I'll get taxed. Therefore, the government could easily steal my money by "changing" the tax code between now and then. I can think of dozens of effective ways to do so: they could institute a sliding tax rate on 401k balances, for instance (the more in your account, the higher % of taxes you pay).

That's different from simple confiscation of 401k accounts.

Don't forget about estate taxes -

Plus they will "means" test social security - the GOP supports doing this NOW - the democrats don't like means testing because they think if not everone is going to get a check - or if your check will be reduced - that in the long run social security would lose critical support. Then it would be easier to cut it.

Say you have $1 million in retirement accounts when you retire at 67.

Guess you will be planning on getting ~~ $5K a month is SS & medicare benefits ---

So - what if the government says - gee - this guy did it right - he worked hard & saved -but he has a million - so screw him!

MAKE YOU TAKE OUT - in this made up example $60K per year -

Since that is already the amount SS would pay - your SS payment is ZERO.

Did they just confiscate your 401K? I would say yes. Using your own money to pay you what you are entitled to through SS. CLASSIC! Since it is also means tested - you will not only pay income tax on the 401k withdrawal (you need to do this already) but it pushes you into a higher tax bracket on your other (interest, dividend & capital gain income)

Having money saved in a retirement account could in fact end up giving you LESS money to actually spend.

devildog2067
12-01-2012, 16:14
Did they just confiscate your 401K? I would say yes. Using your own money to pay you what you are entitled to through SS.

I'm 31 years old. I fully expect to receive zero dollars from Social Security; I think it will be completely insolvent by the time I retire.

2bgop
12-01-2012, 16:18
I'm 31 years old. I fully expect to receive zero dollars from Social Security; I think it will be completely insolvent by the time I retire.

I am a few years older than you, not only do I expect to receive no social security, I am sure I will have to keep paying in the max for many years to come. I think I am right at the age of those who will pay in most of their productive years, but will miss out on the "benefit".

Z71bill
12-01-2012, 16:19
You can't use current economic situation to determine what the government will do - you must look at this from the correct perspective.

Say in 2025 interest rates on C- negative outlook rated :cool: US government debt is 15% and we are adding $5 trillion a year to our $60 trillion national debt.

The IMF just cut us off and there is now a fence on the border with Mexico and Canada - not to keep them out of the USA - but to keep us from going there.

Riots in the streets - food shortages - hospitals closed -

You think the US government will respect your 401K? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Z71bill
12-01-2012, 16:22
I'm 31 years old. I fully expect to receive zero dollars from Social Security; I think it will be completely insolvent by the time I retire.

You will still get SS - it is just that the money they use to pay you will be the money you have saved in your 401K.

Patchman
12-01-2012, 16:29
Glad I went with a civil service job with a retirement pension, and never contributed one cent into any 401K. And as my lawyer advised just this past Thursday, "spend down, spend down." After retirement, I will have no issues with collecting food stamps and whatever other .gov benefits that are out there that I would qualify for. I figured I earned it.

coastal4974
12-01-2012, 16:37
Did anyone really think they would stop after getting your healthcare money? :rofl:

The socialist party has been eyeing retirement accounts since at least Clinton. THey say it's "costing" them too much to continue with the "mistake" of this tax deduction. Whistle past the graveyard all you want but if you're under 50, you will have to contribute to my generation. You shouldn't be so greedy anyway. :wavey:

Rooster Rugburn
12-01-2012, 16:49
I'm 31 years old. I fully expect to receive zero dollars from Social Security; I think it will be completely insolvent by the time I retire.

It won't be insolvent, because it is an entitlement program that buys votes for the major parties. Neither the demoRATS or repubicans have the will to let it fail, so taxes will go up, and payouts will go down.

The reason you won't see any benefits is because you will be "means tested" out. There will be amounts of retirement savings that politicians will determine makes you ineligible for payouts.

There are idiots here who think taxing benefits and restricting COLA bonuses is a way of means testing. It's not. What I'm talking about is you being completely denied any payouts because you have $XXX in a 401k, a mutual fund, or have an employers pension plan. People like us will still be taxed, but benefits will be reserved for the hoards of illegals given amnesty, and those on government assistance who never paid into the system. The "truly needy" in the eyes of the government.

It will be sugar coated to sound "fair", being dressed up like "rich people like Warren Buffet and Mitt Romney don't need the benefits". But in reality, it won't be restricted to millionaires and billionaires.

Socialism Security was always intended as redistribution, and to prevent generational wealth building. If the government does steal our 401k funds, and gives us 3% interest, and a payout determined by how much was stolen from us, whatever you get will NOT be able to be passed on to your heirs. You'll get a check until you die. .GOV keeps the rest. And that is the very reason for Socialism Security.

Now we have nearly half the population taking handouts, and supports a socialist government. The socialists are empowered like never before, and they are not even trying to hide their intentions. Socialism is no longer a dirty word. Leftists are openly advocating adopting European Socialist taxes and taxation policies.

It would be wise to reduce your 401k deductions to whatever amount your company matches, then put the difference in an after tax mutual fund or the stock market. The socialists think that your 401k is theirs because you haven't paid tax on it.

Luckily, we still have divided government, so it will be another 2 years before the socialists can act on their plans. Hopefully, the US House will still be in repubican hands in 2016.

Anyone who doesn't think the US government lead by the democrats wouldn't or couldn't move to take your 401k, is seriously deficient in brain matter. Google "Kelo v. City of New London". They won't "steal" your funds, because they will reimburse you with socialism security payouts during your retirement, as long as you live. But again, you won't be able to pass it down to your heirs. That's how they get around it.

Eminent domain requires compensation. In the eyes of the SCOTUS, as long as you are compensated for your losses, it is all nice and legal. As exampled by the Kelo decision mentioned above.

Notice how the left is starting to openly discuss the idea. More and more people are more and more dependent on government, and more and more people will support it. After all, voters with a 401k are a significant minority, and are not a "federally protected group".

M2 Carbine
12-01-2012, 16:52
Are 401ks at risk now?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a serious question.

And this is a serious answer.

EVERYTHING you own is subject to be taken from you, even your freedom, in one way or the other.

Put it this way, obama and the federal government gave itself the power to arrest and indefinitely detain US citizens, with NO charges and without a trial or even a lawyer.
Obama Announces Detaining Americans for Future Crimes that Have Not Been Committed - YouTube

If THEY can so completely disregard your Constitutional rights, THEY can and will do anything that they want.

Restless28
12-01-2012, 16:58
And this is a serious answer.

EVERYTHING you own is subject to be taken from you, even your freedom, in one way or the other.

Put it this way, obama and the federal government gave itself the power to arrest and indefinitely detain US citizens, with NO charges and without a trial or even a lawyer.
Obama Announces Detaining Americans for Future Crimes that Have Not Been Committed - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o276WIlU21E)

If THEY can so completely disregard your Constitutional rights, THEY can and will do anything that they want.

Rand Paul led the fight against this. The Senate killed this, IIRC, ironically with sponsorship from Feinstein.

Rooster Rugburn
12-01-2012, 17:00
Put it this way, obama and the federal government gave itself the power to arrest and indefinitely detain US citizens, with NO charges and without a trial or even a lawyer.

Bush started it with Jose Padilla. But it was okay with most here because Padilla was a suspected "terrorist", and Bush was just trying to keep US safe.

Then there is the PATRIOT Act.

A lot of conservatives tried to get Bush to force Dr. Tom Sell to be charged, or released, but Bush didn't seem too interested.


IOW, we can't just blame Obama.

coastal4974
12-01-2012, 17:07
Your 401k isn't even "on the table" when you file bankruptcy. It is a protected asset that they can it touch, it is yours even if you have huge debts. You have no idea what you are talking about.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Really? Is that what happened to the old GM share holders? :dunno:

M2 Carbine
12-01-2012, 17:19
Rand Paul led the fight against this. The Senate killed this, IIRC, ironically with sponsorship from Feinstein.
Good.

I've seen such as this but I haven't seen where it was actualy changed.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/02/rep_jeff_landrys_legislation_b.html

IOW, we can't just blame Obama.
One of the things I hold against Bush but, what Bush did or didn't do doesn't mean squat now.
obama is in the White House and he wanted and signed the legislation.

Z71bill
12-01-2012, 18:01
The first warning shot on - they are coming for your 401K will be when they agree that we need a ONE YEAR ONLY - OPTION on year two and three if blablabla :upeyes::rofl: Wealth Tax

It will be small - my guess something the .25% on assets over $10 million less than $25 million - and .5% over $25 million - targeted at "financial assets" like stocks & bonds.

There will be all sorts of exceptions - so some connected rich will have loop holes designed specifically for them.

Then the wealth tax is proclaimed to be a success - becomes permanent - then the caps get reduced (or inflation take you there anyway)


THEY DON'T NEED THAT MONEY will become the common cry from polititians.

deputy tom
12-01-2012, 18:10
Up theirs! Mine is worth $54.00 and they won't let me quit or dissolve it until I reach a certain age or quit the job. They can have it. tom.:steamed:

dino1
12-01-2012, 18:13
Sure they won't take your 401K because it's just stock that's worth nothing.......................until you own over 50 percent of the stock. After you take all of the stock you control the company, handing out bennies to the workers, putting your cronnies on the board ect there by ensuring repeat democrat voters.

Why take by force when you can just nationalize 401K's there by taking over every publicly owned company.

meathead19
12-01-2012, 18:43
It won't be insolvent, because it is an entitlement program that buys votes for the major parties. Neither the demoRATS or repubicans have the will to let it fail, so taxes will go up, and payouts will go down.

The reason you won't see any benefits is because you will be "means tested" out. There will be amounts of retirement savings that politicians will determine makes you ineligible for payouts.

There are idiots here who think taxing benefits and restricting COLA bonuses is a way of means testing. It's not. What I'm talking about is you being completely denied any payouts because you have $XXX in a 401k, a mutual fund, or have an employers pension plan. People like us will still be taxed, but benefits will be reserved for the hoards of illegals given amnesty, and those on government assistance who never paid into the system. The "truly needy" in the eyes of the government.

It will be sugar coated to sound "fair", being dressed up like "rich people like Warren Buffet and Mitt Romney don't need the benefits". But in reality, it won't be restricted to millionaires and billionaires.

Socialism Security was always intended as redistribution, and to prevent generational wealth building. If the government does steal our 401k funds, and gives us 3% interest, and a payout determined by how much was stolen from us, whatever you get will NOT be able to be passed on to your heirs. You'll get a check until you die. .GOV keeps the rest. And that is the very reason for Socialism Security.

Now we have nearly half the population taking handouts, and supports a socialist government. The socialists are empowered like never before, and they are not even trying to hide their intentions. Socialism is no longer a dirty word. Leftists are openly advocating adopting European Socialist taxes and taxation policies.

It would be wise to reduce your 401k deductions to whatever amount your company matches, then put the difference in an after tax mutual fund or the stock market. The socialists think that your 401k is theirs because you haven't paid tax on it.

Luckily, we still have divided government, so it will be another 2 years before the socialists can act on their plans. Hopefully, the US House will still be in repubican hands in 2016.

Anyone who doesn't think the US government lead by the democrats wouldn't or couldn't move to take your 401k, is seriously deficient in brain matter. Google "Kelo v. City of New London". They won't "steal" your funds, because they will reimburse you with socialism security payouts during your retirement, as long as you live. But again, you won't be able to pass it down to your heirs. That's how they get around it.

Eminent domain requires compensation. In the eyes of the SCOTUS, as long as you are compensated for your losses, it is all nice and legal. As exampled by the Kelo decision mentioned above.

Notice how the left is starting to openly discuss the idea. More and more people are more and more dependent on government, and more and more people will support it. After all, voters with a 401k are a significant minority, and are not a "federally protected group".

Well said....But it still won't sink in for some/most.