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Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 13:45
I heard about a training outfit who is teaching a different way to change a magazine in an AR.

Supposedly (I say that because I wasn't in the class) one school is teaching a different way to replace a magazine: drop the empty mag, unlatch the bolt, insert the new mag, and then rack the slide and cycle the bolt.

This is done because the trainer says you cannot trust the bolt to strip a round out of the magazine from the locked open position.

Has anyone actually seen this specific technique being demonstrated? Has anyone seen an AR actually fail to properly feed from just pressing the catch on a new mag? It seems to me that if it happened very often, more schools would be demonstrating this technique.

I suspect this school is just trying to do things a different way so they can be unique and say they are pushing the envelope..... so to speak. It's not the way I was taught, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What say you?

If you have seen it demonstrated, please don't mention the school by name.

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 13:48
I heard about a training outfit who is teaching a different way to change a magazine in an AR.

Supposedly (I say that because I wasn't in the class) one school is teaching a different way to replace a magazine: drop the empty mag, unlatch the bolt, insert the new mag, and then rack the slide and cycle the bolt.

This is done because the trainer says you cannot trust the bolt to strip a round out of the magazine from the locked open position.

Has anyone actually seen this specific technique being demonstrated? Has anyone seen an AR actually fail to properly feed from just pressing the catch on a new mag? It seems to me that if it happened very often, more schools would be demonstrating this technique.

I suspect this school is just trying to do things a different way so they can be unique and say they are pushing the envelope..... so to speak. It's not the way I was taught, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What say you?

If you have seen it demonstrated, please don't mention the school by name.

The only time I have seen a round fail to feed when the bolt catch was pressed was due to some kind of outside malfunction. Magazine with 31 rounds in it, bad bolt, worn out action spring, mag not inserted all the way, etc. Using the technique described wouldn't have helped with any of those.

Sounds like a good way to add plenty of time to your reload, IMO.

Edit: I'd love to hear this instructor explain what's so different about a bolt released by the release catch, and one released by pulling the charging handle to the rear and letting go. I can see more potential for user error in the latter, honestly.

cesaros
12-02-2012, 14:02
The only time I have seen a round fail to feed when the bolt catch was pressed was due to some kind of outside malfunction. Magazine with 31 rounds in it, bad bolt, worn out action spring, mag not inserted all the way, etc. Using the technique described wouldn't have helped with any of those.

Sounds like a good way to add plenty of time to your reload, IMO.

Edit: I'd love to hear this instructor explain what's so different about a bolt released by the release catch, and one released by pulling the charging handle to the rear and letting go. I can see more potential for user error in the latter, honestly.


Agreed.

After firing thousands of rounds, and reloading hundreds of times with my beat to hell M4...Ive never had a round not load when releasing the bolt. However I HAVE had a round fail to load when racking.

Not to mention, using this instructors technique wastes alot of time...you're trying to correct a problem that probably wasn't ever there.

edit: We do use this method when loading a new magazine BETWEEN different courses of fire...but NEVER during a course of fire.

KalashniKEV
12-02-2012, 14:05
1) That sounds slow, complex, cumbersome, foolish, and unnecessary.

2) Anything trained through thousands of repetitions can become fast-er. (See Israeli empty chamber one handed draw throw your hand out to the side technique).

3) It is likely just another proprietary technique that instructor hopes will differentiate him from the rest of the crowd... sometimes they are pretty good techniques ("urban prone" craze), sometimes they are cumbersome and foolish (7-step shoulder transition technique).

Getting training from a reputable instructor insulates you from this nonsense... most of the time...

Matthew Courtney
12-02-2012, 14:14
I am always cautious when someone claims to be using a technique that makes their training better than everyone else's training. Better methods do evolve, but they tend to get wrung out by several groups over time. With respect to this technique, unless I misunderstood, one is complicating what has always been a simple and reliable method of reloading an AR.

K. Foster
12-02-2012, 14:41
As someone else said, this guy is just trying to be different. I would not teach that and I don’t know any reputable instructor that does.
I know at least one school that teaches to pull the charging handle all the way to the rear to release the bolt, rather than use the bolt latch. The philosophy being, this gives you a little more spring pressure by fully retracting the BCG. I’m not saying I buy into this but it is being taught.
The method I use and taught, before I retired, was to just hit the bolt latch. Simple and effective.

Brian Brazier
12-02-2012, 14:52
Sounds like someones trying to make a name for themselves, and not in a good way. Too many unnecessary steps, and a good way to have a failure. I am no expert but why overcomplicate a simple procedure? Drop the mag, insert new magazine, hit the bot release.

MrMurphy
12-02-2012, 16:04
Idiocy is still idiocy.

btaylor
12-02-2012, 18:19
So, what is the "proper" method?

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 18:25
So, what is the "proper" method?

I guess "proper" depends who what class you are taking, or what agency is training you.

Push the mag release button, insert new magazine, if the bolt locked back, disengage the catch, mostly demonstrated by slapping with the heel of an open hand.

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 18:29
Push the mag release button, insert new magazine, if the bolt locked back, disengage the catch, mostly demonstrated by slapping with the heel of an open hand.

Alternate: Press mag release, strip empty magazine from mag well, drop empty in dump bag/pouch, grab fresh mag, insert to mag well, and hit bolt release.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Warp
12-02-2012, 18:32
So, what is the "proper" method?

If the bolt is locked back...with off hand, acquire the new magazine while trigger hand releases empty/old magazine. Generally that spare/new magazine is carried so that grabbing it puts your thumb across the spine/back of the mag and your fingers across the front of the mag (if on your belt at 3 or 9 o'clock, or similar, this means bullets point to the rear in the mag holder). Bring your off hand/new magazine up and insert it into the mag well. Then some people use their off thumb to press the bolt release, some use their palm to smack the bolt release, some use a BAD lever, etc.

Travis Haley: Speed Reloads - YouTube

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 18:36
Edit: I'd love to hear this instructor explain what's so different about a bolt released by the release catch, and one released by pulling the charging handle to the rear and letting go. I can see more potential for user error in the latter, honestly.

This is the kind of guy who seems to feel he is above explaining anything he does. Having trained with him before, I doubt he is going to do much explaining.

I don't get it either. What is the difference between the force dropping the bolt from locked back, and being racked by the shooter. Plus, it seems to me it could introduce opportunities to fail. If the shooter is rattled and doesn't get a good cycle of the bolt, and that charging handle can be hard to grab in a hurry, then shooter adds even more time.


I was curious because I don't even believe in a "tactical reload" with a sidearm. IMO, the average civilian who just engaged hostile targets and needs to reload, won't have the dexterity to pull a magazine between the ring and pinky fingers, and then insert the new mag while holding the used mag. If he trains that way, and starts fumbling the process, now his focus is on the mag change process. I don't set myself up for that failure. If I just had to shoot, any mag change is an emergency. I scan for more threats while moving, drop the mag, insert the new mag, move, scan, sul, move. I've had a lot of interesting interactions with instructors over that point. And have been DQ'ed from a lot of matches.

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 18:44
If you have seen it demonstrated, please don't mention the school by name.


I added this to the OP because I didn't want schools being slammed without being represented in the thread to explain their perspective, or the failures that caused this line of thinking.

BUT. Being the opinionated hard headed guy I am, if I paid money for a 2 or 3 day school, and this is the kind of thing they were teaching, I would start to wonder if I wasted my money.

Warp
12-02-2012, 18:48
This is the kind of guy who seems to feel he is above explaining anything he does. Having trained with him before, I doubt he is going to do much explaining.

I don't get it either. What is the difference between the force dropping the bolt from locked back, and being racked by the shooter. Plus, it seems to me it could introduce opportunities to fail. If the shooter is rattled and doesn't get a good cycle of the bolt, and that charging handle can be hard to grab in a hurry, then shooter adds even more time.


I was curious because I don't even believe in a "tactical reload" with a sidearm. IMO, the average civilian who just engaged hostile targets and needs to reload, won't have the dexterity to pull a magazine between the ring and pinky fingers, and then insert the new mag while holding the used mag. If he trains that way, and starts fumbling the process, now his focus is on the mag change process. I don't set myself up for that failure. If I just had to shoot, any mag change is an emergency. I scan for more threats while moving, drop the mag, insert the new mag, move, scan, sul, move. I've had a lot of interesting interactions with instructors over that point. And have been DQ'ed from a lot of matches.

I don't usually train tactical reloads with magazine retention, either. Most of the time I am carrying a single pistol and no spare magazine, anyway, so reloads are a moot point...but if I do have a spare (rifle or pistol), and actually somehow find myself in a situation where I might reload, I'll just give up the rounds remaining and go to a fresh mag.

I think the chances of botching the reload, potentially at the cost of being able to shoot back when you need to, or at the cost of situation awareness, is greater than the chances of going through all of the rounds in the new magazine and needing more.

I've received training that included tac reloads, and I do practice them from time to time, but not really with the intention of employing them.

cowboy1964
12-02-2012, 19:20
This is stupid. Mags are harder to insert and are more prone to not being fully inserted if the bolt carrier is forward. Same as with some pistols with the slide forward.

No thanks.

samurairabbi
12-02-2012, 19:22
That instructor is adapting a pistol reload technique to his AR reload method..

Pulling the slide back, rather than hitting the release, DOES gain reloading "energy" by picking up the benefit of the additional spring compression gained by pulling the slide back that extra fraction of an inch. In the shorter travel of a handgun slide, that extra spring energy would make a greater proportional difference than in the longer total travel of a slide loading a rifle round.

My initial thought, as someone mentioned earlier, is that he wants his training method to be "distinctive" from other methods.

Warp
12-02-2012, 19:23
This is stupid. Mags are harder to insert and are more prone to not being fully inserted if the bolt carrier is forward. Same as with some pistols with the slide forward.

No thanks.

That's a good point. If the bolt is locked back and you need to put a new mag in, it is easier and more consistent to do so with the bolt back. Much, much less likely to insert the magazine only to have it drop to the ground when you let go of it and move the rifle.

cowboy1964
12-02-2012, 19:31
disengage the catch, mostly demonstrated by slapping with the heel of an open hand.

And as Clint Smith says (I'm paraphrasing): "you wasn't in Vietnam so stop doing that".

Gunnut 45/454
12-02-2012, 19:34
Most of the time I carried in the Mil we had to carry chamber closed full mag incerted. Unless we were in a hot area, live training, or executing in training senerio. So much easier just to drop the mag, incert full mag an hit bolt release. Especially when your in a two way range!:supergrin: If it doesn't go bang, tap rack fire! Actually now that I veiwed the Haley vid I do the swing the thumb up while sliding the mag in more then the slap!

GSSF17
12-02-2012, 19:34
What say you?



Crap. Extra time and action = Going around your arse to get into your front pocket, basically.

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 19:54
I think the chances of botching the reload, potentially at the cost of being able to shoot back when you need to, or at the cost of situation awareness, is greater than the chances of going through all of the rounds in the new magazine and needing more.

It's said the way you train is the way you'll fight. And we often hear the story of the CHP officer killed with a handful of empty brass because he was used to picking up his brass when he emptied the cylinder....

So how many civilians who flub the "tactical reload" will say "f it" and get the new mag in, as compared to fumbling it with, trying to get it right, because that's they way they trained? Also, how many people who drop the used mag before they get the new mag in, will be more focused on recovering the dropped mag, then seating the fresh mag?

IMO, there are just too many variables. Like this whole drop the bolt, replace the mag, and cycle the action bit.

As for a closed bolt preventing the proper seating of the fresh mag, isn't that why so many trainers advocate 28 rounds instead of 30?

Warp
12-02-2012, 19:57
It's said the way you train is the way you'll fight. And we often hear the story of the CHP officer killed with a handful of empty brass because he was used to picking up his brass when he emptied the cylinder....

So how many civilians who flub the "tactical reload" will say "f it" and get the new mag in, as compared to fumbling it with, trying to get it right, because that's they way they trained? Also, how many people who drop the used mag before they get the new mag in, will be more focused on recovering the dropped mag, then seating the fresh mag?

IMO, there are just too many variables. Like this whole drop the bolt, replace the mag, and cycle the action bit.

As for a closed bolt preventing the proper seating of the fresh mag, isn't that why so many trainers advocate 28 rounds instead of 30?

Absolutely.

Yes, that is why so many (virtually all who are in-the-know, I think) download to 28 rounds with USGI mags. PMAGs can be loaded to 30 rounds, though some people still load them to only 28. But even with 28 in the mag it's still easier to seat on an open bolt. It shouldn't be a problem, but it's just one more slight little advantage to add to the "open bolt" advantage column.

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 19:59
And as Clint Smith says (I'm paraphrasing): "you wasn't in Vietnam so stop doing that".

I imagine in that stressful situation, Clint will very easily find that little catch button with his little thumb or finger. As for Rooster Rugburn, maybe not so much. It was told to me the reasoning was it is easier to hit with the heel of your hand, than finding it and contacting it with a single finger.

Warp
12-02-2012, 20:03
I imagine in that stressful situation, Clint will very easily find that little catch button with his little thumb or finger. As for Rooster Rugburn, maybe not so much. It was told to me the reasoning was it is easier to hit with the heel of your hand, than finding it and contacting it with a single finger.

I can see that.

I've also seen (I think in the video I linked earlier) that under stress you might cup your hand and manage to miss.

I have seen both methods used effectively.

Personally I've chosen to go with the thumb method. I do it before I fully remove my hand from the magazine, so it is pretty consistent because my hand is indexed on the magazine so, relative to where my thumb starts, the bolt catch/release is always in the same spot. It's barely any less sure than the people who use their thumb to release the slide on a semi auto pistol (though personally I use an over-hand method for that)

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 20:04
Most of the time I am carrying a single pistol and no spare magazine, anyway, so reloads are a moot point...but if I do have a spare (rifle or pistol), and actually somehow find myself in a situation where I might reload, I'll just give up the rounds remaining and go to a fresh mag.

Of all the videos I've ever seen of self defense shootings, be it a jewelry store, gas pump, or c-store, after the first shot from the intended victim, the rest of the pack go from 0-15mph in about 2 steps. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I've never seen one that I can remember. It seems they want a victim and a quick score, not a fight. I would imagine 1 magazine is enough.

Warp
12-02-2012, 20:06
Of all the videos I've ever seen of self defense shootings, be it a jewelry store, gas pump, or c-store, after the first shot from the intended victim, the rest of the pack go from 0-15mph in about 2 steps. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I've never seen one that I can remember. It seems they want a victim and a quick score, not a fight. I would imagine 1 magazine is enough.

Yes.

This comes up from time to time in carry issues (not that I would know anymore, RussP ran me out of there) and on other forums, and I haven't yet seen anybody point out an actual real life civilian self defense shoot where the good guy reloaded their pistol...or ran out of ammo and thus lost.

Sure, more ammo is good, and a spare mag is more ammo + a spare in case of malfunction...but the odds of needing a spare mag do indeed seem to be very, very low

WoodenPlank
12-02-2012, 20:17
Yes.

This comes up from time to time in carry issues (not that I would know anymore, RussP ran me out of there) and on other forums, and I haven't yet seen anybody point out an actual real life civilian self defense shoot where the good guy reloaded their pistol...or ran out of ammo and thus lost.

Sure, more ammo is good, and a spare mag is more ammo + a spare in case of malfunction...but the odds of needing a spare mag do indeed seem to be very, very low

Yup. I carry a spare in case of malfunction, and sometimes two just because. If I have burned through 13 rounds of 357SIG, im probably screwed no matter what.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

samurairabbi
12-02-2012, 20:19
I would imagine 1 magazine is enough.
I offer the 1992 Reginald Denny situation as a plausible exception to such a rule.

If Denny had been armed, he probably avoids the injuries he suffered, either by using his weapon or by scaring off his attackers without firing. But even after this hypothetical happy outcome, he would still be stuck in the middle of an insurrection. Would a single handgun mag be enough reserve for someone in the middle of a riot?

Warp
12-02-2012, 20:22
I offer the 1992 Reginald Denny situation as a plausible exception to such a rule.

If Denny had been armed, he probably avoids the injuries he suffered, either by using his weapon or by scaring off his attackers without firing. But even after this hypothetical happy outcome, he would still be stuck in the middle of an insurrection. Would a single handgun mag be enough reserve for someone in the middle of a riot?

Maybe. Maybe not. I doubt guys would be climbing into the truck after guy #1 falls/climbs back out with holes in him.

I may not carry a spare magazine (rarely, anyway) but I do keep spare magazines in the vehicles.

Rooster Rugburn
12-02-2012, 21:38
I offer the 1992 Reginald Denny situation as a plausible exception to such a rule.

If Denny had been armed, he probably avoids the injuries he suffered, either by using his weapon or by scaring off his attackers without firing. But even after this hypothetical happy outcome, he would still be stuck in the middle of an insurrection. Would a single handgun mag be enough reserve for someone in the middle of a riot?

Two shots into one bad buy, the rest scatter, Denny gets in his truck and gets out of the hood. Knowing not to stop the next time, run any and every red light, and be ready to pop another couple rounds.

I live and operate in the Mid South area. Situations like that do not occur in this area because of the probability of the potential victims being armed. Even though the mayor and PD will do their best to rationalize the bad behavior and protect the criminals from armed law abiding citizens, their efforts mean nothing when state law allows lethal force at the point of contact. After contact, all the mayors and PD efforts cannot undo what state law allows to be done. I wonder how different the LA riots would have been if Kalipornia had shall issue laws.

I typically carry two spares, sometimes one. But I just don't think I would need more than the original.

G19g4
12-03-2012, 00:01
Alternate: Press mag release, strip empty magazine from mag well, drop empty in dump bag/pouch, grab fresh mag, insert to mag well, and hit bolt release.

Alternate with retention: Check breach, grab fresh mag, form an L-shape using empty mag as vertical leg, press mag release, strip empty magazine, load new mag (push then pull), stow empty mag, and hit bolt release.
Sounds difficult, but is very quick and smooth with practice.

Warp
12-03-2012, 00:06
Alternate with retention: Check breach, grab fresh mag, form an L-shape using empty mag as vertical leg, press mag release, strip empty magazine, load new mag (push then pull), stow empty mag, and hit bolt release.
Sounds difficult, but is very quick and smooth with practice.

You take your hand away from the rifle, making a round trip to and from your belt (or wherever you stow the empty mag), with the gun unable to fire because the bolt is still locked back?

Or was that list not quite in chronological order?

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 00:35
If someone is trying to kill me so enthusiastically that I am having to reload my AR, I am not going to try and catch and stow the depleted mag before getting back to the business of destroying my adversary's ability to kill me.

G19g4
12-03-2012, 00:46
You take your hand away from the rifle, making a round trip to and from your belt (or wherever you stow the empty mag), with the gun unable to fire because the bolt is still locked back?

Or was that list not quite in chronological order?

Retention is rarely used in situations where hard cover is unavailable. Releasing the bolt is done just before shouldering your rifle. Economy of motion.

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 01:10
Retention is rarely used in situations where hard cover is unavailable. Releasing the bolt is done just before shouldering your rifle. Economy of motion.

Let me make sure I understand. For the sake of economizing motion, I am going to wait until my support side hand has grasped a magazine and brought it up under the gun before I eject the depleted mag, then I am going to catch the depleted mag and lock the slide back before I insert the fresh mag. My next move will be to stow the depleted mag, before I charge my rifle by hitting the bolt release.

That somehow is more efficient than hitting the mag release as my support side hand brings the fresh mags comes up to the rifle and inserts it. On a tactical reload, the rifle does not need to leave the shoulder and the bolt does not need to be released. It was never locked back because I never ran dry. A properly executed tactical reload leaves me with one round in the rifle for about 1/2 second. The partially depleted magazine falls and the fresh mag is inserted. The rifle can stay shouldered and oriented toward the threat or my zone of fire.

G19g4
12-03-2012, 01:26
Let me make sure I understand. For the sake of economizing motion, I am going to wait until my support side hand has grasped a magazine and brought it up under the gun before I eject the depleted mag, then I am going to catch the depleted mag and lock the slide back before I insert the fresh mag. My next move will be to stow the depleted mag, before I charge my rifle by hitting the bolt release.

That somehow is more efficient than hitting the mag release as my support side hand brings the fresh mags comes up to the rifle and inserts it. On a tactical reload, the rifle does not need to leave the shoulder and the bolt does not need to be released. It was never locked back because I never ran dry. A properly executed tactical reload leaves me with one round in the rifle for about 1/2 second. The partially depleted magazine falls and the fresh mag is inserted. The rifle can stay shouldered and oriented toward the threat or my zone of fire.

Reload with retention and a tac reload are different, as you have very well outlined. I couldn't agree with you more brother.
When did rifles have slides?

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 01:31
After rereading a few posts, I think some folks are confusing two types of reloads.

1. Emergency reload - begins when one is locked back on an empty chamber. Trigger finger hits mag release while support hand gets fresh mag, inserts it, and hits bolt release.

2. Tactical reload - begins during a brief break in the fight when rifle is loaded with partially depleted mag. Support hand retrieves fresh mag and trigger finger hits mag release as support hand brings fresh mag up to the rifle, then the support hand inserts fresh mag.

Both emergency and tactical reloads may be complicated by adding movements to retain the depleted mag. Outside of actions conducted by a fireteam, it would not likey be advisable to conduct reloads with retention. Somebody has to keep their eyes on the enemy throughout the engagement, and unless you have a team, that somebody is you.

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 01:36
Reload with retention and a tac reload are different, as you have very well outlined. I couldn't agree with you more brother.
When did rifles have slides?

Heck, now I am confused...... So, to help me understand, why are we trying to retain the empty magazines? The only guys I know who do that are forward deployed Marines and other major league door kickers.

G19g4
12-03-2012, 01:49
Heck, now I am confused...... So, to help me understand, why are we trying to retain the empty magazines? The only guys I know who do that are forward deployed Marines and other major league door kickers.

Resources are scarce. You want to fight another day? You can't lose your magazines.

TangoFoxtrot
12-03-2012, 04:48
I heard about a training outfit who is teaching a different way to change a magazine in an AR.

Supposedly (I say that because I wasn't in the class) one school is teaching a different way to replace a magazine: drop the empty mag, unlatch the bolt, insert the new mag, and then rack the slide and cycle the bolt.

This is done because the trainer says you cannot trust the bolt to strip a round out of the magazine from the locked open position.

Has anyone actually seen this specific technique being demonstrated? Has anyone seen an AR actually fail to properly feed from just pressing the catch on a new mag? It seems to me that if it happened very often, more schools would be demonstrating this technique.

I suspect this school is just trying to do things a different way so they can be unique and say they are pushing the envelope..... so to speak. It's not the way I was taught, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What say you?

If you have seen it demonstrated, please don't mention the school by name.

Not a technique I'm going to be using anytime soon.

M&P15T
12-03-2012, 04:57
Resources are scarce. You want to fight another day? You can't lose your magazines.

Resoursces AREN'T scarce. There's deals on magazines everywhere.

The chance that any of us will actually use our AR in a SD/HD situation? Very, verrrry small.

The chance that we do get in an HD/SD situation, and 30 rounds aren't enough? Way, waaaaay smaller. Something close to zero.

"Living to fight another day"? Hell, 99.999% of us will never have to fight any day, much less a second.

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 06:44
Resources are scarce. You want to fight another day? You can't lose your magazines.

So, immediately after you empty a mag in self defense, your thoughts are going to be about the $10 that the magazine costs, not about legal bills, criminal charges, or the fact that someone was/is trying to kill you?

K. Foster
12-03-2012, 08:09
Alternate with retention: Check breach, grab fresh mag, form an L-shape using empty mag as vertical leg, press mag release, strip empty magazine, load new mag (push then pull), stow empty mag, and hit bolt release.
Sounds difficult, but is very quick and smooth with practice.

No offence, but that is wrong! Trying to retain empty and worthless magazines only serves to take you focus away from the fight. Leave it on the ground. It is now evidence for LEO’s. If you were referring to some end of the world situation, just pick it up after you’ve won the fight.

Big Bird
12-03-2012, 08:15
Resources are scarce. You want to fight another day? You can't lose your magazines.

Magazines are expendable wear items.

In a firefight they get thrown away like yesterday's newspaper.

MrMurphy
12-03-2012, 09:30
Retaining mags became an issue after Somalia IIRC, when from what I remember, an attempt to resupply became a situation of 'we have ammo on stripper clips, but no magazines" situation or something like that.

Tactically speaking, it makes sense to retain at least a few empty/partial mags for that situation. For home defense, no, drop it and keep doing your thing. If you're on a battlefield, it's a possible issue, defending your house, less so.

M&P15T
12-03-2012, 10:03
Magazines are expendable wear items.

In a firefight they get thrown away like yesterday's newspaper.

I was watching some incredible videos of MARSOC guys fighting in Afghanistan. They littered the ground of their fighting position with spent mags. I would imagine they grabbed them back up before they moved on.

They also carry extra mags in their (The North Face) back packs. That video started in the middle of a fight, and the guy wearing the helmet cam (surely a Go Pro HD) was grabbing extra mags from his pack and stuffing them into his pouches. In other similar videos I have seen the same guy(s) do re-loads from an empty mag, letting them drop to the ground, and tactical/retention re-loads.

Lots of other interesting things to see in this video. They are using SOPMOD BlockII M4A1s, with the DDM4RISII rails, Elcan Spectre optics, M230s, PEQ15s, Surefire M600s...those have to be 13+lb rifles. They are also using a mixture of USGI mags and PMAGS. Despite all of the crap hanging off the front of their rifles, the barrels are free-floated.

I believe the guy whose face you can see in the still below, is named Dolphin. He died, not in combat, but because some ignorant ass Aghan electrician wired their quarters incorrectly and killed three MARSOC Marines in an electrical fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwDxpST8EU8&feature=share&list=PL8C37447F5C26EE55

G19g4
12-03-2012, 11:08
http://youtu.be/gs4E91iQZas

G19g4
12-03-2012, 11:15
In home defense, speed reload.
http://youtu.be/Hx0JzYcwUiY

fnfalman
12-03-2012, 11:47
Supposedly (I say that because I wasn't in the class) one school is teaching a different way to replace a magazine: drop the empty mag, unlatch the bolt, insert the new mag, and then rack the slide and cycle the bolt.

This is done because the trainer says you cannot trust the bolt to strip a round out of the magazine from the locked open position.


Granted that my military combat riflery training is twenty years out of date, but I don't think that the M16's family design had changed much hence. So, I think that it's pretty safe for me to say that this instructor is FOS.

The gun was designed to feed the first round from a bolt hold open position.

Can you do it otherwise? Of course you can, but it doesn't mitigate the fact that the gun was designed to take the first round from a bolt hold open position. If your gun can't reliably chamber a round from this position, then all the racking in the world isn't going to solve a mechanical issue.

fnfalman
12-03-2012, 11:48
And as Clint Smith says (I'm paraphrasing): "you wasn't in Vietnam so stop doing that".

I was in Vietnam, so I think I'll go on slapping the bolt release lever.

Big Bird
12-03-2012, 15:25
Retaining mags became an issue after Somalia IIRC, when from what I remember, an attempt to resupply became a situation of 'we have ammo on stripper clips, but no magazines" situation or something like that.

Tactically speaking, it makes sense to retain at least a few empty/partial mags for that situation. For home defense, no, drop it and keep doing your thing. If you're on a battlefield, it's a possible issue, defending your house, less so.

Its called actions on the objective. SOP is to consolidate and reorganize:

Cross level ammo, reorgnize, resupply etc.

Picking up mags in the middle of a firefight is stupid. You don't have the ammo or time to reload them. The ammo you bring is already in magazines.

When the fighting stops you go back and police them up if possible.

K. Foster
12-03-2012, 16:13
http://youtu.be/gs4E91iQZas



This proves two things.
1. Just because you have a video, doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. He does an extremely poor job of demonstrating it.
2. Just watching you tube videos is not the best way to learn.

On the other vid, he’s doing an emergency or empty gun reload. Not a speed reload. He does, however, do the emergency reload correctly. Hope this helps.

G19g4
12-03-2012, 17:01
This proves two things.
1. Just because you have a video, doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. He does an extremely poor job of demonstrating it.
2. Just watching you tube videos is not the best way to learn.

On the other vid, he’s doing an emergency or empty gun reload. Not a speed reload. He does, however, do the emergency reload correctly. Hope this helps.

Agreed. The first video was hilarious to watch! Posted it to prove a point, that the retention method is indeed used.
The second, speed reload must go by different names. The concept is still the same, getting your primary up ASAP without retaining the empty mag.

btaylor
12-03-2012, 17:15
Thanks everyone for posting proper technique. I'm still learning. Will take a class eventually.

K. Foster
12-03-2012, 17:20
The second, speed reload must go by different names. The concept is still the same, getting your primary up ASAP without retaining the empty mag.

A speed reload is simply ejecting a partial mag (not retaining it) and inserting a fresh one without working the slide or bolt. Not something I’d recommend for most situations.:thumbsup:

Matthew Courtney
12-03-2012, 17:41
This proves two things.
1. Just because you have a video, doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. He does an extremely poor job of demonstrating it.
2. Just watching you tube videos is not the best way to learn.

On the other vid, he’s doing an emergency or empty gun reload. Not a speed reload. He does, however, do the emergency reload correctly. Hope this helps.

What struck me as particularly troubling is that the shooter/demonstrator put the empty mag in the same pouch that the full mag came from. Mixing one's empty mags with one's full mags during a fire fight does not seem to be a good idea.

WoodenPlank
12-03-2012, 17:43
What struck me as particularly troubling is that the shooter/demonstrator put the empty mag in the same pouch that the full mag came from. Mixing one's empty mags with one's full mags during a fire fight does not seem to be a good idea.

Agreed - Partial mags, yes. Empties, no.

expatman
12-03-2012, 17:47
I can't understand why there is such a big discussion over this stuff. My basic view is, if I still feel in danger after a mag dump then I do a speed reload and continue on. I keep doing that as needed until I feel it is safe for me to retain my mag when I need to reload or top off. Pretty simple to me.

cesaros
12-03-2012, 18:16
carry a dump pouch on your vest or belt. Problem solved.

I throw empties in it, as well as stuff I can't secure quick enough.

KalashniKEV
12-03-2012, 19:22
When the fighting stops you go back and police them up if possible.

You mean like an Easter Egg hunt?

You need a better SOP:

http://www.thebeijingshop.com/images/TMC%20Foldable%20Dump%20Pouch%20Multicam%20.jpg

G19g4
12-03-2012, 21:08
I can't understand why there is such a big discussion over this stuff. My basic view is, if I still feel in danger after a mag dump then I do a speed reload and continue on. I keep doing that as needed until I feel it is safe for me to retain my mag when I need to reload or top off. Pretty simple to me.

Great point! ... I like the variety of members that contribute to this discussion.

Rooster Rugburn
12-03-2012, 21:14
Thanks everyone for posting proper technique. I'm still learning. Will take a class eventually.

Think about it though. If you went to the school I am referring to, look at what a bad habit they would get you started with. It wouldn't be a bad idea to ask around about training, and read a few class reviews on some of the boards.

I think in this specific situation, it is pretty obvious that this technique is less than ideal, even if you haven't had any training at all.


To extend the discussion, I wonder if the instructor pushing this technique is making up failure histories to prove the need to switch to his way? Anyone can say, "I've seen too many bolts fail to properly strip a round from a magazine when dropped from the open position, and since we started this technique, it hasn't happened once".

Rooster Rugburn
12-03-2012, 21:22
I can't understand why there is such a big discussion over this stuff. My basic view is, if I still feel in danger after a mag dump then I do a speed reload and continue on. I keep doing that as needed until I feel it is safe for me to retain my mag when I need to reload or top off. Pretty simple to me.

There is a big discussion because if you take this certain class, you might not get a certificate validating your training. Undocumented training doesn't exist. If you get an instructor who takes pride in being an ass, refusal to adopt his technique is an affront to his expertise. You can always do it in the class, to keep him happy, and then revert back to the other way after. But it seems like that would be a waste of the training time and money.

I use a modified Weaver stance. I once took an advanced pistol class where the instructors were more interested in making me use modern iso like they did, than allowing me to build on the training I had already taken, and the habits I had already developed. I always felt that training was largely wasted.

expatman
12-03-2012, 21:33
I was speaking more to the industry in general. But thank you.

K. Foster
12-03-2012, 22:11
What struck me as particularly troubling is that the shooter/demonstrator put the empty mag in the same pouch that the full mag came from. Mixing one's empty mags with one's full mags during a fire fight does not seem to be a good idea.

Agreed.

KalashniKEV
12-03-2012, 22:14
I once took an advanced pistol class where the instructors were more interested in making me use modern iso like they did, than allowing me to build on the training I had already taken

Well if you're going to sign up for instruction and then blow off the instructor... why not save a bunch of cash and spend the weekend shooting drills in the technique you're comfortable with?

:dunno:

G19g4
12-03-2012, 22:17
carry a dump pouch on your vest or belt. Problem solved.

I throw empties in it, as well as stuff I can't secure quick enough.

Yes! Why leave "breadcrumbs" for others to find when your trying to get the F out of there?
(Note: This is not related to home defense)

Warp
12-03-2012, 22:29
Well if you're going to sign up for instruction and then blow off the instructor... why not save a bunch of cash and spend the weekend shooting drills in the technique you're comfortable with?


This is why people suggest researching the school/instructor(s) first, so that you can avoid this.

Not everybody realizes there is instruction that might actually set you backwards, unfortunately

WayaX
12-03-2012, 22:31
I've been trying to figure out how to respond without calling the whole technique stupid...but in the end, it is just stupid.

From a purely civilian standpoint, I'm dropping the mag and counting it as disposable, inserting a new source of ammo, hitting the bolt release, and continuing on. The extra manipulations actually increase the chance of an error. Magazines are easier to insert on an open bolt, and you don't risk riding the charging handle. I can also see that situations could arise where retaining and empty mag may be warranted, but for me, it isn't. If you must retain an empty, don't put it in with fulls (or partials).

And I'm very open to trying whatever the trainer wants to teach, but I do have to draw the line somewhere. If an instructor wanted to teach this technique, I would seriously question his credentials. If all the other material was really good, I may put up with it, but chances are, if something like this shows up, the rest is most likely crap, too. However, little things, like when I've had a class where the instructor was dead set that my HK slide release lever was a slide stop lever and it should never be used as a release, I complied for the class. In the end, you aren't going to develop a permanent habit from a single day. Though this is different from the instructor teaching a bad technique.

G19g4
12-03-2012, 23:53
2. Tactical reload - begins during a brief break in the fight when rifle is loaded with partially depleted mag. Support hand retrieves fresh mag and trigger finger hits mag release as support hand brings fresh mag up to the rifle, then the support hand inserts fresh mag.

A speed reload is simply ejecting a partial mag (not retaining it) and inserting a fresh one without working the slide or bolt. Not something I’d recommend for most situations.:thumbsup:

"Will the real slim shady please stand up?"
All joking aside, this is called a tactical reload.

btaylor
12-04-2012, 00:41
It wouldn't be a bad idea to ask around about training, and read a few class reviews on some of the boards.



Absolutely. That's why i'm here. :supergrin:

surf
12-04-2012, 04:06
The method posted in the initial post is absolutely ridiculous. It is as ****ing stupid as performing a tactical reload on a pistol then racking the slide and ejecting the round that was chambered.

- Just because someone is an instructor, trainer, has their own company, yada, yada, means squat this day in age. There are so many fly by night companies that have popped up in order to jump on the current trend it is sickening to see the absolute amounts of crap that is out there. Granted there are genuinely great trainers hitting the scene and there is a lot of good information that we have gleaned over the last decade plus, but the sheer amount of idiots out there is staggering. There are far too many quality and vetted training organizations to go ahead and pay some questionable person or company money to obtain training from.

- Just because someone has a youtube channel means absolutely squat. It is easy for a professional, or highly trained / skilled shooter to pick out the idiots, but to an untrained or unskilled shooter, they are easily duped.

- A skilled instructor or shooter can have someone do a draw from a holster, have them fire a simple 10 shot drill, have them perform an empty reload at the end and know almost all they need to know about a shooters familiarity, comfort level, understanding of basic fundamentals, weapons handling, safety and ultimately, their overall proficiency in regards to a firearm. Similar concepts can be applied to a rifle. Hell I can look at a quick video of someone performing to include the target after and it will generally say all that I need to know.

- A reload with retention is NOT retaining an empty magazine when the weapon has gone into slide lock or when the bolt has locked to the rear on an empty chamber. A reload with retention is similar in concept to performing a tactical reload where there is still partial ammunition left in the magazine and we do a magazine swap to top off the weapon. The magazine is retained and since it is partial it can be placed back in a rearward magazine pouch position etc, just not back in our primary magazine reload position unless if that is all we have left. This concept is so that the shooter only manipulates one magazine at a time.

- A tactical reload is generally reserved for very specific situations however it can be a valuable tool when applied in the appropriate manner in the correct situation.

- We should not be stowing mags in up close situations where the treats are active. Finish the action then retrieve your mags when there are no longer any other IMMEDIATE THREATS. Time, distance, concealment and / or cover and type engagement may however allow for a rifleman to retain mags before the threat ceases however retention should not be in mag pouches if avoidable.

- If you look at a technique as a whole and look at large test groups, such as units or larger, etc, you start seeing general observations of trends. In general, under stress, palm slapping the bolt release definitely generates more failures to chamber rounds than other well practiced techniques. I had this discussion with the fella in the posted video many years ago. Most people can hit a mag release button, there is no reason that they cannot be as successful with a button the same size in a good location to release the bolt. But I also will add that if something works for you and your situation, good on you.

- There is a big difference in being skeptical of a technique or method and not wanting to train it as it may be a sheer waste of time and ingrain some bad habits. If it is utter rubbish from a mechanical standpoint on the actual operation of the rifle, that it lacks efficiency and there is no sound reasoning, explanation AND vetted testing as to why the manipulation be performed in that manner from tactics standpoint, it seems pretty obvious. Just like any hypothesis or theory.

- Now if someone does not wish to change something that they perform because they are used to something else, well that may be a personal choice and good on them. However if there is a technique or method of doing something that has a proven track record of a clear performance advantage over another technique with a wide variety of shooters, from novice up to and including professionals in all realms of firearms related worlds, then that is also "a clue".

Now if there is some type of physical limitation that does not allow a shooter to change then that is one thing. However not wanting to change to something new because of ones own level of comfort, is something completely different. Again physical limitations aside, the desire to seek training IMO should be about becoming a better, well rounded shooter, no matter your shooting genre and this often includes allowing yourself to be taken or pushed out of your comfort level in order to make performance gains. And yes sometimes we take two steps backwards with something new before taking many strides forward beyond where we once were. It isn't the flaw in the technique, rather the initial lack of proficiency on the part of the shooter until the technique is understood and performed well. Could I make someone who uses a less effective technique better than they already are at performing that less effective technique? Sure can. Could they IMO, be leaps and bounds ahead of where they were by perhaps learning alternate methods that are based around sound principles? Sure do.

Rooster Rugburn
12-04-2012, 05:19
but chances are, if something like this shows up, the rest is most likely crap, too.


And there it is. How many other commonly accepted and proven techniques are also going to be nixed because they want to be different. I think "commonly accepted" are that way for a reason.

It makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Big Bird
12-04-2012, 06:43
You mean like an Easter Egg hunt?

You need a better SOP:

http://www.thebeijingshop.com/images/TMC%20Foldable%20Dump%20Pouch%20Multicam%20.jpg


That's why they give you Privates and Spec 4's. :tongueout:

Matthew Courtney
12-04-2012, 08:56
"Will the real slim shady please stand up?"
All joking aside, this is called a tactical reload.


Different competitive and training entities call the same reloads by different names.

G19g4
12-04-2012, 13:29
In an effort to lay the reloading with retention to rest, the following statements must be understood.
1. There is a time and a place where this technique applies, defending your home from bad guys is not one of them. For home defense, no, drop it and keep doing your thing. If you're on a battlefield, it's a possible issue, defending your house, less so.Holding down a fixed position warrants you're not actively egressing towards safety. Leaving anything behind, especially live rounds that could be used against you, is huge!
2. Body position during a reload is also a factor. Quickly and forcefully pullout your empty magazine when the rifle is sideways because you're trying to get as low as possible.
3. Loading a fresh mag before securing the empty is critical, the less time the weapon is empty the better. In regards to the bolt still locked back while you're stowing the empty mag and you see a threat that spit second, it's simple, send the bolt home and engage the threat.

(Note: Personally, I'd use a pistol loaded with hollow-point before considering a rifle for room-to-room home defense.)

M&P15T
12-04-2012, 13:33
(Note: Personally, I'd use a pistol loaded with hollow-point before considering a rifle for room-to-room home defense.)

I sure as hell wouldn't, given the choice.

For SD/HD, a pistol will work, but they're no where near as effective at stopping a fight as a 5.56MM at close range. Plus my AR has a light and Eotech for fast target aquisition and identification.

G19g4
12-04-2012, 13:41
I sure as hell wouldn't, given the choice.

For SD/HD, a pistol will work, but they're no where near as effective at stopping a fight as a 5.56MM at close range. Plus my AR has a light and Eotech for fast target aquisition and identification.

To each his own, I guess. I'm more in favor of being fast and light. Also, its hard to sleep with an 8 lbs rifle hidden under your mattress.

M&P15T
12-04-2012, 13:45
To each his own, I guess. I'm more in favor of being fast and light. Also, its hard to sleep with an 8 lbs rifle hidden under your mattress.

Fast & light?

Well.....o.k.......

I don't keep any firearms under my matress. Even when I lived in the ghetto, my HD firearm (pistol at the time) sat on the nightstand.

I get the impression you live at home, and try and keep your firearms hidden from your parents.

G19g4
12-04-2012, 13:52
Touché... Their names are Uncle Sam and Aunt Hillary.
But this is a magazine technique discussion. Lets try to stay on subject.

G19g4
12-04-2012, 14:00
I don't use smiley or winky faces so it might be difficult to see when I'm being overly sarcastic.

Warp
12-04-2012, 18:46
To each his own, I guess. I'm more in favor of being fast and light. Also, its hard to sleep with an 8 lbs rifle hidden under your mattress.

Ignoring the fact that I see home defense and clearing your house as two different things...what's so hard about keeping a rifle ready?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/20120926_195501_zps9acb4706.jpg

faawrenchbndr
12-04-2012, 19:41
.........

(Note: Personally, I'd use a pistol loaded with hollow-point before considering a rifle for room-to-room home defense.)

You need to do a bit of research on firearms ballistics & structure
impacts.

(Note: Personally, I'd use a carbine loaded with hollow-points before considering a pistol for room-to-room home defense.)

MAC702
12-04-2012, 19:54
This is stupid. Mags are harder to insert and are more prone to not being fully inserted if the bolt carrier is forward. ....

This.

What small extra energy advantage gained by the extra buffer compression is more than negated by this disadvantage.

And even if the extra buffer compression was deemed worthy of consideration, there is still no need to drop the bolt before inserting the new magazine.

mjkeat
12-04-2012, 21:43
Fast & light?

Well.....o.k.......

I don't keep any firearms under my matress. Even when I lived in the ghetto, my HD firearm (pistol at the time) sat on the nightstand.

I get the impression you live at home, and try and keep your firearms hidden from your parents.

Not that I disagree w/ you but you have no room to talk crap to anyone.

G19g4
12-05-2012, 01:39
You need to do a bit of research on firearms ballistics & structure
impacts.

(Note: Personally, I'd use a carbine loaded with hollow-points before considering a pistol for room-to-room home defense.)

Someone should start a new thread on pistols versus rifles for home defense. If there is one, let me know.

cesaros
12-05-2012, 01:54
You need to do a bit of research on firearms ballistics & structure
impacts.

(Note: Personally, I'd use a carbine loaded with hollow-points before considering a pistol for room-to-room home defense.)

wierd..in every CQB shoot-house scenario Ive been apart of, a handgun was always better to use.

Matthew Courtney
12-05-2012, 03:54
wierd..in every CQB shoot-house scenario Ive been apart of, a handgun was always better to use.

Why was the handgun better?

samurairabbi
12-05-2012, 04:50
Someone should start a new thread on pistols versus rifles for home defense. If there is one, let me know.

Include shotguns; three-ways are kinky!

M&P15T
12-05-2012, 07:23
Not that I disagree w/ you but you have no room to talk crap to anyone.

Yeah?? Why's that?

mjkeat
12-05-2012, 10:41
wierd..in every CQB shoot-house scenario Ive been apart of, a handgun was always better to use.

I agree with Greg on this. I much prefer an AR over a handgun. I can do everything with the AR that I can do with the handgun then some.





Yeah?? Why's that?

Do you really have to ask?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

expatman
12-05-2012, 12:08
wierd..in every CQB shoot-house scenario Ive been apart of, a handgun was always better to use.

Not sure what you do for a living but maybe some more scenarios are in order.

All of the training I have received, although specialized, has placed the rifle/carbine over the pistol due to it being the most casualty producing weapon. The pistol, of course has its place in "short" rooms and other places that are hard to maneuver but the long gun is king IMHO.

There are many different classes out there but I would never go pistol over carbine.

Mayhem like Me
12-05-2012, 12:13
This.

What small extra energy advantage gained by the extra buffer compression is more than negated by this disadvantage.

And even if the extra buffer compression was deemed worthy of consideration, there is still no need to drop the bolt before inserting the new magazine.

Not only that the additional drag of the charging handle may actually give less velocity to the BCG.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

fnfalman
12-05-2012, 13:21
Yeah?? Why's that?

Because you haven't had "professional" training?

Mayhem like Me
12-05-2012, 14:27
wierd..in every CQB shoot-house scenario Ive been apart of, a handgun was always better to use.

HUH?

did they all take place in attics or crawlspaces?

surf
12-05-2012, 21:43
wierd..in every CQB shoot-house scenario Ive been apart of, a handgun was always better to use.I would question your CQB experiences, those training with you, or providing you instruction. There is a time and place for a pistol, even in CQB, however there is a reason that people who go through doors for a living, who are going after the bad people, use long guns as their primary weapons. Heck even if they chose a pistol caliber, they still tend to be shoulder mounted weapons.

MrMurphy
12-06-2012, 07:27
I'd take an MP5A3 or an Uzi before a pistol. And I would (very definitely) take an M4 before either of them. SMGs are handy, but they're max, 100m guns and my personal experiences with CQB meant we could go from 1m to 200m and still be inside a building in some cases. Anywhere you can fit with a pistol in a standard shooting stance, I can fit with an M4 and body armor. There's a few specific cases a 9mm would work where a rifle wouldn't.... but those are few.

Mayhem like Me
12-06-2012, 10:20
There's a few specific cases a 9mm would work where a rifle wouldn't.... but those are few.

Very very very very few......:cool:

MajorD
12-06-2012, 10:45
Even when the bolt locks back my method is to insert new mag tug down on mag to ensure it is locked in grab charging handle and release. My theory is doing this the bolt is pulled back a little further so there is a little more spring pressure pushing the round into the chamber. Doing it with the bolt closed makes it very hard in some rifles to lock a fully loaded mag in so that doesn't make sense to me. I don't feels using the by release is bad if that is your thing.when training up for Iraq our instructors did suggest hitting the release with your fist rather than just a finger- more of a gross motor movement and that does make sense to me