Reloader's advantage [Archive] - Glock Talk

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njl
12-02-2012, 15:14
I was at the range today doing some practice transitioning from one target to another. I was using up some 147gr X-Treme, two different loads, loaded to about 875fps and 915fps in my G17. They're both soft shooting minor PF loads.

Then I switched to my G30 and 185gr JHP. From the G30, these only do about 765fps. On the first trigger pull, there was a bang, but no recoil. I instinctively froze, thinking "did I just have a squib?", but then I saw I'd kicked up a cloud of dust in the berm behind the target. I guess this is how you know when your .45acp load is "soft enough"...when it feels like a squib compared to soft 147gr 9mm loads. :)

It made me think, using ammo like this at a match really is a huge advantage over someone using factory ammo (unless you hesitate during the match, wondering if you just squib'd)...and should it be allowed / should there be a power factor floor? The trouble is, if GSSF disallowed use of reloads, it'd be really tough to enforce, and it'd turn off a lot of the regulars. A PF floor means a chronograph stage, at least for all the people shooting non-factory ammo...and that's extra resources...and I also wonder how you'd be sure people shot the same ammo at the the match stages and chrono stage? Obviously, I've never been to a match where this is done...only heard about it.

SARDG
12-02-2012, 15:55
I've estimated that shooting reloads shaves perhaps 10%-15% off my times because of quicker follow-ups from little felt recoil. My 147 loads make PF+ (~130) so I am GTG with any competition requiring it and don't presume to go any lower in GSSF. Your .45s of course, would be short of Major.

I doubt if handloaders are shooting rounds with less than PF (in 9mil) at Glock matches because reliability (especially with Gen4s) goes down the tube with low PF, low-recoil rounds.

I shoot IDPA but have never been to a match where PF was checked. At GSSF matches it would be a nightmare. Enforcing "Stock" on Glocks is already impossible. That, and a GSSF Power Floor would then be two things subject to being checked, that would never be checked.

njl
12-02-2012, 16:21
What about all the unlimited guns with the milled slides and reduced power springs? I suspect they're shooting sub-minor.

SARDG
12-02-2012, 17:23
What about all the unlimited guns with the milled slides and reduced power springs? I suspect they're shooting sub-minor.
Mine has a compensator and won't run on my 147s. Using 124s at ~130 to run reliably. :dunno:

1RoundEye
12-02-2012, 18:38
My understanding at the official IDPA match where they enforce a power floor they don't make everyone chrono. They just at random walk up to a shooter and ask for the top three rounds off a couple of your magazine right before you're about to shoot a stage, and tell you to come by the chrono area at your leisure for verification.

I've heard stories of some hand loaders not making the floor in IDPA, and I've heard some factory loads will not even make minor in USPSA.

mike g35
12-02-2012, 19:06
What about all the unlimited guns with the milled slides and reduced power springs? I suspect they're shooting sub-minor.

If they're using compensators they're most likely running hotter than factory ammo. If not? Well.... It's UL, anything goes.


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SARDG
12-02-2012, 20:41
If they're using compensators they're most likely running hotter than factory ammo. If not? Well.... It's UL, anything goes.
Well, I didn't have to go hotter and found a nice reliable 124gr load at 1050 fps. Factory 124 Blazer I was shooting was running at 1190.

JTSmith
12-02-2012, 23:31
I've shot matches with Federal 115gr from Wally World, 147gr Xtreme over 3.5gr Power Pistol, 124gr Montana Gold over 4.5gr Power Pistol, and at the Mobile match, a combination of all 3:)

I know it's impossible to directly compare each match, but if I compare best times of each load, they are within about 3 seconds of each other, with the factory ammo posting the fastest time.

I think I started to rush myself trying to take advantage of the lessened muzzle flip, which has resulted in slightly lower times.

mike g35
12-03-2012, 05:10
Well, I didn't have to go hotter and found a nice reliable 124gr load at 1050 fps. Factory 124 Blazer I was shooting was running at 1190.

The more gas you produce (the more powder you burn in other words) the more efficient your compensator. That's why powders like HS6 and AutoComp are so popular. You can run a comp without going heavy on the gas but your gun won't run as flat as it would if you went heavy.


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chemcmndr
12-03-2012, 09:15
Using "bunny fart" reloads can definitely be an advantage in GSSF. I remember one match this past year I had to use a 147 grain subsonic reload whose recipe I stole from one of the other shooters because I didn't have enough time to load my usual loads before the match. It's an extremely soft recoiling round and IIRC, only about 850 fps. Coincidentally, that was the same match that I took first place in Am. Civ. Coincidence? I don't know.

The funny thing is; the shooter I took the 147 gr. load from uses that load in GSSF and quickly went from Am. Civ. to master in a matter of 2-3 matches. I've also heard from some others that shoot USPSA with him that he has worked up a load that meets PF in his gun, and uses that to chrono with, but will run the match with his light loads...

njl
12-03-2012, 09:35
The funny thing is; the shooter I took the 147 gr. load from uses that load in GSSF and quickly went from Am. Civ. to master in a matter of 2-3 matches. I've also heard from some others that shoot USPSA with him that he has worked up a load that meets PF in his gun, and uses that to chrono with, but will run the match with his light loads...

He must have some skill. Low recoil loads help...but they can't get you to master, much less in 2-3 matches, if you're not already pretty good.

mbree
12-03-2012, 12:08
.....

The funny thing is; the shooter I took the 147 gr. load from uses that load in GSSF and quickly went from Am. Civ. to master in a matter of 2-3 matches. I've also heard from some others that shoot USPSA with him that he has worked up a load that meets PF in his gun, and uses that to chrono with, but will run the match with his light loads...

For USPSA, he is cheating and should be called on it. When chrono stations are run correctly, the RO or RM running the station should select the rounds from the shooters belt and/or bag and not allow the shooter to select them.

Faster recovery or lower recoil will help a skilled shooter improve their times to some degree, but this does not justify cheating or gaming the system.

Cheating says a lot about someone's character. To some degree, we are placing our safety in the hands of every shooter at a match. I don't trust cheaters, so why would anyone want to shoot with someone they can't trust?

chemcmndr
12-03-2012, 13:07
He must have some skill. Low recoil loads help...but they can't get you to master, much less in 2-3 matches, if you're not already pretty good.

Oh, he does have skill, I know he practices a lot, nearly every day.

For USPSA, he is cheating and should be called on it. When chrono stations are run correctly, the RO or RM running the station should select the rounds from the shooters belt and/or bag and not allow the shooter to select them.

Faster recovery or lower recoil will help a skilled shooter improve their times to some degree, but this does not justify cheating or gaming the system.

Cheating says a lot about someone's character. To some degree, we are placing our safety in the hands of every shooter at a match. I don't trust cheaters, so why would anyone want to shoot with someone they can't trust?

I don't personally shoot USPSA because I'm not fond of their setups and the philosophy behind it. A few of our mutual friends that do shoot USPSA have thought about blowing the whistle on him. I know he also would use a G34 lower with a G17 upper when shooting Am. Civ. at GSSF, and I think our friends were going to get him for that as well. I think this guy's personal goal is to be the best USPSA shooter, so I don't know.

When we do other informal competitions, and we set them up in a more practical situation, and less like a USPSA setup, he doesn't seem to do any better or worse than the rest of us.

Alexd29
12-03-2012, 13:48
I use the same loads for Gssf and uspsa. 3.3 gr n320 147 gr xtreme. 1.135 oal. none of my ammo has failed to make pf at at uspsa matches. although i did come close once. 126.5 at west PA sectional this year.(the exact same ammo made. 133 pf on chemcmmdrs chrono 2 days before the match)

I dont load "special" ammo for gssf or the chrono at uspsa. the problem i was having was my standard deviation. i was making the ammo on a loadmaster and my oal was all over the place. i have since gone to a 650 and my oal is much more consistant. I still use the exact same recipe for uspsa and gssf. Last chrono was 130.5 pf.

I will admit, after western pa, before the next chrono i measured the oal on several cartridges and picked ten that were all 1.135 or 1.136.

Also, i dont shoot everyday i try to go to the range twice a week during the competition season and dryfire as much as i can.

My goal is to continue to improve and be the best shooter i can. it saddens me that people think i am trying to cheat my way to becoming a better shooter. (on a side note it is completely legal to run a 17 upper on a 34 lower in AmCiv or masterstock).

You can give me your ammo loaded to nato spec and range rental glock 17, (as long as the sights are on), and shoot the gssf courses of fire and we can see how much ammo choice vs skill has on the outcome.

The time you put in at home, that no one sees, is what makes u look good on match day.
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ron59
12-03-2012, 15:11
Oh, he does have skill, I know he practices a lot, nearly every day.



I don't personally shoot USPSA because I'm not fond of their setups and the philosophy behind it. A few of our mutual friends that do shoot USPSA have thought about blowing the whistle on him. I know he also would use a G34 lower with a G17 upper when shooting Am. Civ. at GSSF, and I think our friends were going to get him for that as well. I think this guy's personal goal is to be the best USPSA shooter, so I don't know.


The statement of yours I bolded is perfectly legal. A G34 lower *is* a G17 lower, just installed under a different upper. It's made by Glock.

There is no requirement that the serial numbers match on frame/slide/barrel, just that they be made my Glock.

Alexd29
12-03-2012, 17:48
Using "bunny fart" reloads can definitely be an advantage in GSSF. I remember one match this past year I had to use a 147 grain subsonic reload whose recipe I stole from one of the other shooters because I didn't have enough time to load my usual loads before the match. It's an extremely soft recoiling round and IIRC, only about 850 fps. Coincidentally, that was the same match that I took first place in Am. Civ. Coincidence? I don't know.

The funny thing is; the shooter I took the 147 gr. load from uses that load in GSSF and quickly went from Am. Civ. to master in a matter of 2-3 matches. I've also heard from some others that shoot USPSA with him that he has worked up a load that meets PF in his gun, and uses that to chrono with, but will run the match with his light loads...

The load may only make 850fps in your G19, in my G34 the round always runs 885 to 925 depending on the chrono and temp.


Sorry for the thread drift, but i feel entitled to defend myself when people are throwing around accusations and attacking my character.

I do feel that reloads offer some advantage. Especially since you can shoot twice as much for the same money versus using factory ammo.

The most improtant thing for me is using the exact same load for all practice sessions as well as matches. When you have the exact same recoil impulse everytime, it helps with timing. I see the sights lift and fall the same everytime.

Most people who aren't shooters or are new shooters see skilled shooters firing two shots as quickly as they can at a target, and assume they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible to get the two shots off. In reality, it is actually two aimed shots. I see the sights lift, then when they return and i achieve the sight picture needed for the range of the target, then and only then do i pull the trigger a second time.

njl
12-03-2012, 20:22
The load may only make 850fps in your G19, in my G34 the round always runs 885 to 925 depending on the chrono and temp.



That's a good point. AFAIK, where PF matters, your ammo only has to make PF in a full size gun. If you're shooting a compact or subcompact with a shorter barrel, you will generally lose some velocity. That load that only does 765fps in my G30 actually does 820 in my G21...and actually, I'd remembered wrong. I just checked my log book, and from the G30, it only did 750fps (138pf) vs 817fps (151pf) in my G21.

At a 138pf, I think that is nearly as weak (at least in pf) as factory 9mm ammo.

drb1611
12-03-2012, 22:41
2012 IDPA GA STATE - unannounced, we had every shooter give up rounds from their first mag on their first stage to be chrono'd. Assured 100% coverage, but required 2 SOs dedicated to running a chrono station for most of the day.

SARDG
12-04-2012, 00:03
I use the same loads for Gssf and uspsa. 3.3 gr n320 147 gr xtreme. 1.135 oal. none of my ammo has failed to make pf at at uspsa matches. although i did come close once. 126.5 at west PA sectional this year.(the exact same ammo made. 133 pf on chemcmmdrs chrono 2 days before the match)...
I use MG 147 CMJs and N320 and that's close to my load, except my G17 and G34 won't run with 3.3 and a jacketed bullet so I use 3.5 to make a safe PF in my G17. (I sometimes shoot the 17, sometimes shoot the 34 in IDPA, so normally use the 17 for chrono tests.) My 3.5gr loads run my Gen3 17 and 34 with the G17 clocked at 882fps and an SD of 11 from my Dillon 650, with that 3.5gr. NOW, I have introduced a Gen4 G17 and get occasional malfs with that load. My friend's Gen4 G17 with my loads... same thing. I am going back to where I once started with 3.6 and see how that goes with the Gen4s. I suppose the plated vs. the jacketed accounts for your 3.3gr working for you.

I also shoot the same load for every practice and for every match (GSSF, steel, IDPA). It has NEVER made one bit of sense to me to do otherwise.

As for temperature effects on N320, I've done some tests shooting 10-rnd strings with cartridges at 45 degrees F through 100+ F and the velocity difference was statistically insignificant ranging from 885 to 888. Just one more thing to like about N320.

chemcmndr
12-04-2012, 11:29
Ok, so going back through my chrono data. the 147 subsonics averaged 871 fps from a G17, 862 fps from a G19, and 927 fps from a 9" MP5. Chrono was 15' from muzzle and ambient temp was 25*F.



I do feel that reloads offer some advantage. Especially since you can shoot twice as much for the same money versus using factory ammo.

The most improtant thing for me is using the exact same load for all practice sessions as well as matches. When you have the exact same recoil impulse everytime, it helps with timing. I see the sights lift and fall the same everytime.

Most people who aren't shooters or are new shooters see skilled shooters firing two shots as quickly as they can at a target, and assume they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible to get the two shots off. In reality, it is actually two aimed shots. I see the sights lift, then when they return and i achieve the sight picture needed for the range of the target, then and only then do i pull the trigger a second time.

I would agree with all of this.

ede
12-09-2012, 08:49
For GSSF, or Steel Challenge I think the whole PF argument is silly and adds extra time and resources to running a match. I suspect shooting a light load may offer some degree of advantage but a good shooter is going to be a good shooter no matter the gun or load. I've never clocked my GSSF ammo since there's no point. I work on reliable function and maybe something that is accurate enough to hit inside an eight inch circle. The only 9mm I shoot in USPSA makes 170PF and is the same load I have been using in GSSF UL. My stock GSSF 9mm loads I've never clocked since it doesn't matter and I don't shoot the 9mm in USPSA. I suspect my GSSF loads make minor. My wifes 9mm GSSF loads are hotter because she isn't strong enough to lock her arms and wrist to shoot DP cap type loads. My .45 GSSF loads make 155PF.

I've done well in GSSF shooting .40 against 9mm shooters and my .40 loads were well above 125, but below 165 by 10-15.

If GSSF banned reloads my first thought would be how are they going to enforce it and my second thought is it's their game and they can make all the rules they want. My third thought would be that I'm not going to play anymore.

Don At PC
12-09-2012, 09:27
Well said Ede and I agree 100%. GSSF has no place for worrying about making a PF to be legal. As far as outlawing reloads and enforcing it I am sure there would be a large contingent of shooters that would leave, myself included. There are ways to deal with unreliable reloads used by a small number and no reason to punish those of us who make quality reloads. I doubt most could afford factory ammo to shoot the matches or a reasonable amount of practice.

Don

njl
12-09-2012, 18:57
Ede: 170pf 9mm? What the heck are you shooting?...and can you do it safely in a stock barrel or is that in an unlimited gun with an aftermarket (tighter chambered/better supporting) barrel?

Don: Unreliable reloads is a totally different issue...that'd be Reloader's Disadvantage. That reminds me of a shooter or shooters I had in Orlando last year. I can't remember if it was two different people or one, but there were lead reloads where not all were chambering, and lead reloads that were tumbling. It gets really tricky scoring a target when the hits are all over (some not present) and some of the hits are sideways (is that one sideways or two hits?).

I would expect a reloader with any sense would test their ammo before taking it to a match...but some obviously don't.