....so I used TiteGroup for the first time [Archive] - Glock Talk

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FLIPPER 348
12-02-2012, 16:49
....using the loading data on the can for 158g .38sp, 3.8 grains over a small pistol primer.

Out of the psitol (6" dan wesson) they shot fine.

Out of the Timberwold (18" barrel rifle), starting with the 1st round more then 1/2 of the 20 rounds squibbed.

Is this a pistol only powder??

SJ 40
12-02-2012, 17:06
You don't say whether your bullet is a cast of jacketed but just a quick look at Hodgdons data shows 3.8 for cast as the maximum load.
Their 158 gr. jacketed load shows 3.9 grs. as the maximum load .
Your starting load was at or near max.check your load data again. SJ 40

FLIPPER 348
12-02-2012, 17:12
I used HSM plated bullets and they recommend using load data for cast bullets. The powder had the info right on the can so I thought I'd be good2go. It's a great load in the pistols for plinking though! ....just not the rifle

Three-Five-Seven
12-02-2012, 17:18
I just got home from a match where lots of guys were using less Titegroup than you report in 20" and longer rifles without a problem. Many hundreds of action shooters use a lighter load than you report all year long with great success in rifles. So, Titegroup clearly works in rifle length barrels. Some of our guys use 26" barrel rifles with less Titegroup than you without a hint of a problem.

I guess that leads me to suspect something is wrong with your scale, powder measure, or primers. The load is solid.

Definitely get to the bottom of this because it is potentially very dangerous to deal with squibs.

I shot 3.8 grains for a while. Went down to 3.2 and started having problems with primers backing out. I use 3.5 grains now and that runs great in the pistols and the rifles I use (USFAs, Rugers, Uberti 1973 Winchester clones). I have used this load in all three of my 38/357 20" barrel rifles and have never had any event even approaching a squibb. I only shoot lead bullets.

I'll say it again -- are you absolutely, positively sure you had 3.8 grains of powder in those loads??? Is there any way you can think of that you might have made an error in weighing or measuring??? Do you have more than one powder scale??? Have you calibrated your scales??? Do you have any rounds left that you can pull down to double check the charge weight (on another scale, obviously)???

I have caught myself more than once over the years seeing the digit I was looking for on a scale rather than the one that actually was in front of me. 2.8 grains of Titegroup might well stick a bullet in a rifle barrel, and 1.8 absolutely would. I always write the charge weight I'm after on a 3x5 card with a black Sharpie and put it in front of the scale when I'm loading (in that fashion). It has saved me more than once from making a mistake.

I hope these comments help. Please keep us posted.

Please describe your scale(s) to us and your procedure for calibrating them/it so we can better understand your loading process. Also, if you were using a powder measure, please describe it and your procedure for cleaning and maintaining it.

sig357fan
12-02-2012, 17:21
first off, what do yuou mean by "squibbed"?

did the primer fire but the bullet didn't clear the barrel or did the primer not fire at all?

if the primer didn't fire the first attempt, did you try a second time?

if the primer didn't fire at all in the rifle, did you try them in your revolver?

sig357fan

F106 Fan
12-02-2012, 17:30
If you don't have check weights for your scale, you might want to think about them. I like to check my scale with a weight very near the charge weight.

Calibration weights for digital scales are worthless for checking anywhere near the load weight.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=check+weights

What kind of scale are you using?

Richard

FLIPPER 348
12-02-2012, 17:35
I'm using a Hornady GS-1500 scale with calibration weight. It works just fine for W296 and Bluedot .357mag loads.

By 'squibb' I mean that the bullet did not clear the barrel, lots of smoke upon opening the action so there was powder






I'll say it again -- are you absolutely, positively sure you had 3.8 grains of powder in those loads??? Is there any way you can think of that you might have made an error in weighing or measuring??? Do you have more than one powder scale??? Have you calibrated your scales??? Do you have any rounds left that you can pull down to double check the charge weight (on another scale, obviously).

-


I hope these comments help. Please keep us posted.





yes
-no
-no
-yes
-no, I only loaded up 30

Three-Five-Seven
12-02-2012, 17:47
I sez: "Are you absolutely, positively sure you had 3.8 grains of powder in those loads?"

You sez: yes


For the record, I would never answer yes to that question.

You're probably a better man than I, but tentativeness will help us get to a solution more quickly.

FLIPPER 348
12-02-2012, 17:53
I am positive I had had 3.8 according to my scale. I will borrow a friend's scale to verify. I checked every load as I was only loading up 30 or so.

RustyFN
12-02-2012, 18:01
Is this a pistol only powder??

No. I use it with 125 grain jacketed bullets and shoot them out of my Marlin 1894 lever action rifle. Never had a problem.

FLIPPER 348
12-02-2012, 18:04
What powder load are you using??


FWIW- the Timberwolf has an aggressive 6 grove barrel

Three-Five-Seven
12-02-2012, 18:23
FWIW- the Timberwolf has an aggressive 6 grove barrel

Well, if the charge weight isn't the problem, then the barrel is the next suspect. I don't really know what a "Timberwolf" is. If the barrel is constricted, undersized, or if by "aggressive" you mean it has unusually high lands, then there might be a problem. But, a 3.8 grain load of Titegroup is a 1000 fps+ load out of a rifle. (probably more like 1300+ fps). So it is hard to imaging something slowing that down to the point where it wouldn't clear the barrel.

Did you see pressure signs in your brass after the squibbs? That's a lot of pressure to contain without other indicators in the brass.

Also, at what point in the barrel did the bullets stop??? Does the gun have a dovetail rear sight??? A dovetail front sight??? Any other external stress points that might refer to a constriction in the bore??? (Marlins were notorious for having "choke" points in their bores at the sight locations). See anything when you shine a light through it???

RustyFN
12-02-2012, 18:42
What powder load are you using??


FWIW- the Timberwolf has an aggressive 6 grove barrel

Titegroup for 357 mag, I didn't see load data for 38 spcl. I'm using 7 grains which is close to the start load according to my Speer manual.

Three-Five-Seven
12-02-2012, 18:53
Titegroup for 357 mag, I didn't see load data for 38 spcl. I'm using 7 grains which is close to the start load according to my Speer manual.

We're talking about a 158 grain bullet. Hodgdon shows 5.0 grains as MAXIMUM for that bullet in the 357 magnum.

Titegroup has a very steep pressure curve and is dangerous if overcharged. It is meant for light to medium loads and does not achieve magnum velocities.

unclebob
12-02-2012, 19:15
I would suggest reading the write up in the Speer Manual on the 38 spl. Yep with that light of load with an 18 barrel you are going to get squib loads according to what was written.

FLIPPER 348
12-02-2012, 19:40
That's exactly what I think is the case here. I will use the Titegroup with the HSM plated bullets for pistol plinking only. I hear the combo is good with .45acp.

thanks for the help y'all

shotgunred
12-03-2012, 20:29
We're talking about a 158 grain bullet. Hodgdon shows 5.0 grains as MAXIMUM for that bullet in the 357 magnum.

Titegroup has a very steep pressure curve and is dangerous if overcharged. It is meant for light to medium loads and does not achieve magnum velocities.

Every powder is dangerous if overcharged.
Fast powders are safer If used in powder puff loads. We recommend using it for light loads and try to steer new reloaders from it. A lot of competition shooters use it for major power factor. Yes a few blow up their guns every year and then go get another gun an keep going. I like red dot in the 38 special myself. Which I believe is faster than tightgroup. But it completely burns up in my 4 inch barrel.

F106 Fan
12-03-2012, 21:10
I'm using a Hornady GS-1500 scale with calibration weight. It works just fine for W296 and Bluedot .357mag loads.


That's a $26 electronic scale. In the view of MANY around here, no electronic scale under $100 is worth a darn. Regardless of how it is branded. We might be wrong but that's the current thinking.

But the important thing is that you realize that the calibration weight is useless. Sure, it allows for a test at full range but you aren't weighing charges anything like full range. You want to check the scale against, perhaps, 4 grains of check weight.

You absolutely must have check weights:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=check+weights

They would be even more important with a $26 electronic scale.

Richard

FLIPPER 348
12-03-2012, 22:47
I ran 18 more thru the revolver during lunch today, great load. The scale works well for my needs. i do dowel check each load before sending it thru the turret.

Colorado4Wheel
12-03-2012, 22:52
Cheap scales. Gotta love them. (that was sarcasm). Get a calibration weight set. With out one how could you possibly know how well it actually works.

Are you trickling onto that scale by any chance.

SCmasterblaster
12-13-2012, 14:37
HTG is definitely a pistol-only powder.

fredj338
12-13-2012, 17:59
HTG is definitely a pistol-only powder.

Doesn't even do that well.:upeyes: Sorry couldn't resist.:supergrin:

Kentguy
12-13-2012, 18:37
I have never used Titegroup, on Hodgdon's burn rate charge it is #14 just behind Alliant Bullseye #13. I have purchased quite a bit of Bullseye and am still trying to use this up. I like it but I think if I need a fast burning powder I will pick up something like WST.

fredj338
12-13-2012, 19:20
I have never used Titegroup, on Hodgdon's burn rate charge it is #14 just behind Alliant Bullseye #13. I have purchased quite a bit of Bullseye and am still trying to use this up. I like it but I think if I need a fast burning powder I will pick up something like WST.

A far better decision.:supergrin: It's not so much the burn rate, it's the tiny volume of powder. Stupid really, but Hogdon sells tons of it.

Hoser
12-14-2012, 08:15
I spoke with a cowboy shooter at the range the other day. He uses TG a lot in his cowboy rifles.

He said you need more crimp. The problem is not just a TG problem. It happens when shooting fast burning powders like it.

However blaming the powder is always a solid choice. Even more so when it is TG.

gwalchmai
12-14-2012, 09:51
I like TG OK, and have used it in .45 ACP, .44 MAG, 9mm, .38 and .357. One must be careful about double charges, of course.

One must be careful about double charges, of course. ;)

fredj338
12-14-2012, 16:19
I spoke with a cowboy shooter at the range the other day. He uses TG a lot in his cowboy rifles.

He said you need more crimp. The problem is not just a TG problem. It happens when shooting fast burning powders like it.

However blaming the powder is always a solid choice. Even more so when it is TG.

I used to load 3K 45colt a month for CAS. I used RD, even faster than TG, never had issues w/ getting a bullet down the bbl of anything. Of course, I probably ran it hotter than many CAS do, still, I can easily blame TG for a lot of things including, but not limited to; global warming, trouble in the middle east, poverty, the list is endless.:supergrin:

FLIPPER 348
12-23-2012, 14:05
A far better decision.:supergrin: It's not so much the burn rate, it's the tiny volume of powder. Stupid really, but Hogdon sells tons of it.



For good reason it seems as they will be selling more to me.

fredj338
12-23-2012, 15:08
For good reason it seems as they will be selling more to me.

No, for no good reason, but you are welcome to it.:wavey:

FLIPPER 348
12-23-2012, 15:13
'for no good reason' to you perhaps

Dude, why do you have such a hard-on for TG??

SARDG
12-23-2012, 15:29
...Dude, why do you have such a hard-on for TG??
Oh, just ignore Fred... I do. :supergrin: I've used TG, but now use N320 which is also a fast powder - never an issue... yet. It's a good idea of course, to pay attention to what you're doing, and have a press where it meters well. I use 320 in 9mil but also in a .45 load and you can just about fit a pound of those fast powders in a .45 case - or so it seems. :shocked:

FLIPPER 348
12-23-2012, 15:36
he is from so-cal so I understand the bitterness

I like a soft shooting .45acp round. The potential for a double charge is there though as the cases are huge!

SARDG
12-23-2012, 15:52
he is from so-cal so I understand the bitterness...
I think they let Fred out of the state once in a while though. Something like parole... :whistling:

FLIPPER 348
12-23-2012, 16:00
I escaped in 84


...back when you could have fun out in the local boonies with ARs stuff!

fredj338
12-23-2012, 18:44
he is from so-cal so I understand the bitterness

I like a soft shooting .45acp round. The potential for a double charge is there though as the cases are huge!

Well the list of reasons is a long one, but you just stated the biggest problem, a double charge is way too easy in a larger case. Throw in it burns hotter than any current pistol powder, almost worthless for lead bullets for that reason, but mostly it's the small volume per weight. Just a stupid idea by Hodgdon, but then they have had other bad ideas too, like naming their Clays series the way they did.:upeyes: So it's just my mission to turn noobs to "better" powder choices after they get the bad advice form the LGS. Feel free to ignore me, Sardg does.:supergrin:
BWT, "escaping" to Oregon is just Kalifornia light. Give Oregon another 10yrs, it will be jut like this place.

FLIPPER 348
12-23-2012, 19:18
Well the list of reasons is a long one, but you just stated the biggest problem, a double charge is way too easy in a larger case.


Double charges are not a problem for me as I have good 'attention to detail' skills. TG sells well even with your valued opinion it seems.

As for Oregon being like CA, hardly. It would take 100 years for this lovely part of the snowy high desert to be anything like that cesspool down there.

SARDG
12-23-2012, 19:19
.... Feel free to ignore me, Sardg does.:supergrin:
Ah gee, now I feel really bad, Fred... :crying:

FLIPPER 348
12-23-2012, 19:26
It's good to know there are reloading-snobs just as there are 1911 snobs!

It's all good. But I wonder if I should run my other reloading powder preferences by fredj338 before I load up any more ammo??

SARDG
12-23-2012, 19:33
...It's all good. But I wonder if I should run my other reloading powder preferences by fredj338 before I load up any more ammo??
I think you should use N320. :tongueout:

Colorado4Wheel
12-23-2012, 22:32
TiteGroup is a very popular powder for a reason. It's biggest drawback is it's low volume. Besides that it has a very broad range for such a fast powder.

Now if I could just get people to stop using Unique. The world would truely be a better place.

klmmicro
12-23-2012, 22:47
Try switching to Unique...

Colorado4Wheel
12-23-2012, 22:59
Arrrggggg

fredj338
12-25-2012, 01:16
It's good to know there are reloading-snobs just as there are 1911 snobs!

It's all good. But I wonder if I should run my other reloading powder preferences by fredj338 before I load up any more ammo??

Feel free, you might learn something.:wavey: BTWm it's not reloading snobbery, it's reloading experience. Attention to detail is great, but everyone has a laps & loading powders that you can not readily ID as a double charge is just asking for that moment. Yet, there will be those that like to shoot a hot burning, sooty low volume powder because it save them 1/6 of a penny per round, the real reason most shooters use TG; it's cheap.

SARDG
12-25-2012, 08:41
...Yet, there will be those that like to shoot a hot burning, sooty low volume powder because it save them 1/6 of a penny per round, the real reason most shooters use TG; it's cheap.
Well, I don't care about no stinking (uh, literally, with TG) 1/6 cent per round as evidenced by my graduation to N320 - a great TG alternative.

Fred - did you notice how much I rally around N320? Just about to the extent that you dis TG. :tongueout:

fredj338
12-25-2012, 12:17
Well, I don't care about no stinking (uh, literally, with TG) 1/6 cent per round as evidenced by my graduation to N320 - a great TG alternative.

Fred - did you notice how much I rally around N320? Just about to the extent that you dis TG. :tongueout:
I here good things about it. I use some VV powders in rifles, but cost alone makes me shy for bulk handgun use. I would think it a lot like WST, maybe cleaner burning. Point, there are lots of pwoder choices, TG is just a poor one for most reloading chores IMO. That isn't going to change.

Colorado4Wheel
12-25-2012, 12:27
Well, I don't care about no stinking (uh, literally, with TG) 1/6 cent per round as evidenced by my graduation to N320 - a great TG alternative.

Fred - did you notice how much I rally around N320? Just about to the extent that you dis TG. :tongueout:

One thing I like about Solo 1000 is that it is very bulky. I don't know how good N320 is compared to solo in other regards. I have no complaints about solo but some people just don't like it.

WiskyT
12-25-2012, 16:54
I can understand the appeal of fast powders for certain applications. I use lots of Bullseye. I don't understand all the appeal of one vs another as they all do the same thing. That being said, Red Dot occupies nearly twice the case volume as TG. RD certtainly doesn't cost more than TG as Alliant powders typically are a little cheaper than Hodgdons.

I think if people realized the advantages of RD over TG, they would buy RD in the first place. When my 8# of BE is gone, I'll use RD from there on out.

Colorado4Wheel
12-25-2012, 17:06
I can understand the appeal of fast powders for certain applications. I use lots of Bullseye. I don't understand all the appeal of one vs another as they all do the same thing. That being said, Red Dot occupies nearly twice the case volume as TG. RD certtainly doesn't cost more than TG as Alliant powders typically are a little cheaper than Hodgdons.

I think if people realized the advantages of RD over TG, they would buy RD in the first place. When my 8# of BE is gone, I'll use RD from there on out.

Red Dot sounds a lot like Solo. Is it a single base.

WiskyT
12-25-2012, 17:40
Red Dot sounds a lot like Solo. Is it a single base.

No, RD is double base. When Dupont was broke up, Hercules took the DB products and Dupont took the SB products. New stuff might be different, but the old ones like RD, BE, Unique etc are all DB.

Colorado4Wheel
12-25-2012, 18:37
So isn't it better to use sb with lead?

WiskyT
12-25-2012, 18:42
So isn't it better to use sb with lead?

I doubt it. How many medals have been won at Camp Perry by shooters using BE?

Power burn rate is the issue with lead. Load them hot with a SB or DB powder and you'll get leading. Load them light with a SB or DB powder and you won't.

fredj338
12-25-2012, 19:40
I doubt it. How many medals have been won at Camp Perry by shooters using BE?

Power burn rate is the issue with lead. Load them hot with a SB or DB powder and you'll get leading. Load them light with a SB or DB powder and you won't.

I have probably shot up 32# of RD in light 45colt loads for CAS. I like the bulk in the big 45colt case. It worked fine. It is alos a good choice in 45acp but WST is a bit better, cleaner bruning & less smoke than RD w/ lead bullets.

WiskyT
12-25-2012, 19:46
I have probably shot up 32# of RD in light 45colt loads for CAS. I like the bulk in the big 45colt case. It worked fine. It is alos a good choice in 45acp but WST is a bit better, cleaner bruning & less smoke than RD w/ lead bullets.

I don't ever remember Gene and Roy ever worrying about smoke or clean burning. You really can't get any more virtuous than the guy that wrote "Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer".

Colorado4Wheel
12-25-2012, 19:58
I doubt it. How many medals have been won at Camp Perry by shooters using BE?

Power burn rate is the issue with lead. Load them hot with a SB or DB powder and you'll get leading. Load them light with a SB or DB powder and you won't.

I am talking about smoke production when shooting fast. Not bullseye shooting.

WiskyT
12-25-2012, 20:04
I am talking about smoke production when shooting fast. Not bullseye shooting.

Well, if I'm generating so much smoke that I can no longer see my front sight, I figure I'm not going to get out of there alive.

fredj338
12-25-2012, 21:32
SHoot faster Steve, then you are gone before the smoke becomes a problem.:50cal:

SARDG
12-25-2012, 23:32
One thing I like about Solo 1000 is that it is very bulky. I don't know how good N320 is compared to solo in other regards. I have no complaints about solo but some people just don't like it.
Never used Solo, but I'd be fairly certain that N320 is nowhere near as bulky Also, published load spread for 320 is about .5gr. in my 9mi load so there isn't much room for error there. A double charge would fill the 9mil case though - not true at all when I use it in a .45.

Very little smoke or flash though... and clean.

fredj338
12-26-2012, 10:25
Never used Solo, but I'd be fairly certain that N320 is nowhere near as bulky Also, published load spread for 320 is about .5gr. in my 9mi load so there isn't much room for error there. A double charge would fill the 9mil case though - not true at all when I use it in a .45.

Very little smoke or flash though... and clean.

IT's not that the powder must fill the case, but should fill the case enough that only a blind man can't tell it's a double. IMO, The perfect powder would fill the case to 90% w/ safe pressure @ a max load.

Colorado4Wheel
12-26-2012, 12:00
Never used Solo, but I'd be fairly certain that N320 is nowhere near as bulky Also, published load spread for 320 is about .5gr. in my 9mi load so there isn't much room for error there. A double charge would fill the 9mil case though - not true at all when I use it in a .45.

Very little smoke or flash though... and clean.

A double charge of Solo will overflow the case. It's probably a compressed load if you load it to 130pf in 9mm. It is very consistent as a compressed load.

fredj338
12-26-2012, 14:09
A double charge of Solo will overflow the case. It's probably a compressed load if you load it to 130pf in 9mm. It is very consistent as a compressed load.

As are most loads if pressures allow it. Why I don;t understand the concept of TG. A powder that will stand slight compression is almost always more accurate than a powder that floats around inside the case during ignition, rifle or handgun.:dunno:

FLIPPER 348
12-26-2012, 23:53
Why does it bother you so much that TG is popular??

SARDG
12-27-2012, 00:14
Why does it bother you so much that TG is popular??
Are you letting Fred get under your skin? :)

fredj338
12-27-2012, 02:08
Why does it bother you so much that TG is popular??
Yeah, some people can't handle being told they may not have made the best choice. That's cool though, free country.
Popularity has nothing to do with it. Unique is probably more popular than TG & I love me some Unique. No, It bothers me that reloaders, especially noobs, don't bother doing the research & just use what the LGS tells them or some guy from the local club. Still a free country & I'll give my opinion when I like as well. I have more than a little experience reloading & try to stear the noobs down the safe & sane path. Hey, your gun, your fingers, use what you like. If I disagree, deal with it.:wavey:

gwalchmai
12-27-2012, 05:33
One of my reloading buds loaded .357 with 5.0gr of TG on his first use of a Dillon 550. He loaded up 300 rounds. A few weeks later he blowed up his Model 65. Apparently one of the rounds had 10.0gr instead. I don't see this as TiteGroup problem so much as an inattention problem. He was talking while loading and probably missed his rhythm.

He sold the remaining rounds at a yard sale for $25. I happened to see them on the table and bought them and pulled them. NEVER fire rounds you buy at a yard sale... ;)

FLIPPER 348
12-27-2012, 23:26
Yeah, some people can't handle being told they may not have made the best choice. That's cool though, free country.
Popularity has nothing to do with it. Unique is probably more popular than TG & I love me some Unique. No, It bothers me that reloaders, especially noobs, don't bother doing the research & just use what the LGS tells them or some guy from the local club. Still a free country & I'll give my opinion when I like as well. I have more than a little experience reloading & try to stear the noobs down the safe & sane path. Hey, your gun, your fingers, use what you like. If I disagree, deal with it.:wavey:


Um, ok ........but what about my question??

FLIPPER 348
12-27-2012, 23:28
Are you letting Fred get under your skin? :)



Nah, just wondering why he has issues with a powder (s?) that other folk like to use and are happy with.

Colorado4Wheel
12-27-2012, 23:38
Why? Sometimes asking why just doesn't get you what you want.

fredj338
12-27-2012, 23:47
Um, ok ........but what about my question??

I thought I did but maybe there is a comprehension problem???

Colorado4Wheel
12-27-2012, 23:53
Post 24 and 34.