Safety Way To Store Bulk Primers... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kwesi
12-03-2012, 10:53
I was reading a V-V Reloading Guide and they state:

"Do not store primers in bulk. Doing so will create a bomb! Bulk primers will very likely mass detonate. The blast of a few hundred primers corresponds to a hand grenade in a room"!

I have thousands stored in my office furniture most of which are in the cardboard as shipped. I keep the powder in the same room but inside a closet.

What is the safe way?

F106 Fan
12-03-2012, 11:29
http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/storage.html

Of course the idea that a reloader needs far less than 10,000 primers is ludicrous!

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_201-Primers.pdf

FWIW, there is also a limit to the amount of powder than be stored in a residential occupancy. I believe it is 20#.

Richard

ModGlock17
12-03-2012, 11:30
I am not sure how they would define "bulk". I've seen pictures in the old days where they'd keep a cup full of them in a glass jar. They would move and collide with each others as you move the jar. Is that considered bulk?

In the semiconductor industry, we'd ship stored micromachined chips in tubes. It would be fine if the chips were encased in plastic, but not ceramic housing. Simple collision from one ceramic package to another, in a plastic tube, was documented in the thousands of G-force, which subsequently destroys internal parts of the chip.

So in a glass jar, I can see the danger of sloshing around bare primers inside.

I'd like to think we've gotten smarter over the years.

Primers are now sold in plastic trays, which cushion them from shock. I would think that is deemed safe and adequate enough to be shipped by UPS and couriers. So unless they are stored on train cars, the worst handling of them is over as soon as they got to your hand.

Another issue to ponder, is if primers are so dangerous then everytime you drop a round on a ceramic floor that round would go off !!! But they don't, to my experience, not that I'd drop them for fun...

Cheers

dhgeyer
12-03-2012, 11:39
That is kind of alarming, isn't it! I've got about 4000 in the original boxes in my desk drawer. Yikes!

I suppose I could place each 100 primer pack in a different place around the house, and then try to find them when I need them. Kind of like an Easter egg hunt. Nah.

I could buy packs of primers one or two at a time when I need them. With that Dillon progressive press downstairs: Nah.

I could solve the problem completely by storing them immersed in oil. Nah.

I could build a bomb proof container of some kind, and put them all in there. Nah.

I could install a sprinkler system in the house. Actually that might not be a bad idea. In addition to the primers, I've got a bunch of propellent powders around. I'll do that when I get a round tuit. Nobody has given me one yet.

Not coming up with any real good ideas here. Maybe someone else has a good answer. Sorry.

F106 Fan
12-03-2012, 11:51
There are very specific legally binding storage requirements. NFPA sets the requirements and the Unifrom Fire Code incorporates the requirements. Cities and counties (and states) then pass laws or ordinances that require compliance the the various Uniform codes (as locally amended).

Here is the NFPA document:
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=49510

It's not that there aren't rules, it's that reloaders don't know about them and wouldn't care much about them even if they did know.

What? The Fire Department is going to inspect your house? Before you have a fire? Not in this country!

Even UPS has limits to how much can be carried on a single truck. I don't have any idea how Powder Valley schedules their shipments. Nor do I have any idea what their storage facility looks like. But it must be impressive!

Richard

Kentguy
12-03-2012, 12:04
Kwesi,

All ways keep them in their original shipping/packing containers. Now matter where you store them it must be in a cool dry place (same as powder). The "primer cabinet" is a great idea but some folks don't have the room or $$$ to spend, if you do go for it.

For small amounts an ammo can(s) will work best

Whatever method you choose I would recommend using a dehumidifier in the room or at the very least purchase some of these; Amazon.com: Silica Gel Desiccants Packets - 7/8" X 1 1/2" - 1 Gram Packs - 20 Packets of Silica Gel - Dry-Packs Brand!: Home & Kitchen@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TFEDeHL-L.@@AMEPARAM@@31TFEDeHL-L

Keep them with your primers in storage, remember besides an open flame moisture is your primers (and powders) worst enemy!

JBnTX
12-03-2012, 12:14
Store primers?
I shoot them, I don't collect them.

dkf
12-03-2012, 12:33
A storage cabinet is strongly recommended. A cabinet should be solidly constructed of 1" thick lumber to delay the transfer of heat to the contents in the event of a fire. or other mishap.A storage cabinet made out of combustable material is a must.:faint:

I would not pay any attention to the article. Stick the primers in an ammo can with one of those silica gel packs to store long term.

If you have a good size house fire the primers, powder, ammo and everything is going to go up. Good luck trying to stop it even if you put it in a safe. Safes will get hot inside also. I figure if you want safety find another hobby.

FullClip
12-03-2012, 12:42
When was the last time there was a story in your local papers about a house blowing up due to improper primer storage??:dunno:


Think that a meth lab gone bad makes the headlines a lot more often.:supergrin:

fredj338
12-03-2012, 13:10
When was the last time there was a story in your local papers about a house blowing up due to improper primer storage??:dunno:


Think that a meth lab gone bad makes the headlines a lot more often.:supergrin:

Yes, proper storage is required. Putting them in a locked metal ammo can is not a good idea. In a firem that becomes a bomb as the priemrs start to cook off. Better is a wooden storage locker. There are legal limits to what one can store in their res but it isn't going to be checked until you have the fire & things start going bang. Powder burns, so is far safer to store. Still, there are rules when you go over 25#. Again, a wooden locker, separate from the primers, is the best way.
Just be smart about it. Keep primers in original packaging. Don't store them near the furnace or in an attic space. If yo uhave a fire & can warn the fire dept, do so. It's alrady going to be ugly.

Kwesi
12-03-2012, 13:23
Very interesting perspectives! It was the hand grenade analogy that got my attention.

Kwesi
12-03-2012, 13:25
Kwesi,

All ways keep them in their original shipping/packing containers. Now matter where you store them it must be in a cool dry place (same as powder). The "primer cabinet" is a great idea but some folks don't have the room or $$$ to spend, if you do go for it.

For small amounts an ammo can(s) will work best

Whatever method you choose I would recommend using a dehumidifier in the room or at the very least purchase some of these; Amazon.com: Silica Gel Desiccants Packets - 7/8" X 1 1/2" - 1 Gram Packs - 20 Packets of Silica Gel - Dry-Packs Brand!: Home & Kitchen (http://www.amazon.com/Silica-Gel-Desiccants-Packets-Dry-Packs/dp/B004FC5VT4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1S14XSO817FHK&coliid=IMRFIYORHS7BN)

Keep them with your primers in storage, remember besides an open flame moisture is your primers (and powders) worst enemy!

I use the ones that are reusable. They come in a rectangular this can. When the crystals change color you put them in the oven around 350*.

fredj338
12-03-2012, 13:25
Very interesting perspectives! It was the hand grenade analogy that got my attention.

That i sprobably an exageration. It would depend on how they went off. Bundle 300 together in a small closed space, maybe. 300 in an opern container would be very bad, but not a handgrenade. The idea of 1000 thrown into a glass jar as some old timers used to do scares the crap out of me, but then I tend to be careful with this stuff.

G29Reload
12-03-2012, 13:30
You can store more than that but fire regs recommend building a wooden locker to keep them in.

I do believe 20 lbs is the limit you can transport in a car. The only time i ever exceeded that i think was when i moved.

F106 Fan
12-03-2012, 13:31
A storage cabinet made out of combustable material is a must.:faint:

I would not pay any attention to the article. Stick the primers in an ammo can with one of those silica gel packs to store long term.

If you have a good size house fire the primers, powder, ammo and everything is going to go up. Good luck trying to stop it even if you put it in a safe. Safes will get hot inside also. I figure if you want safety find another hobby.


Actually, a 1" thick wooden cabinet is recommended for all kinds of flammable materials. Paints, solvents, powder and probably primers (I'm not sure about the primers but I am absolutely certain about the rest).

The NFPA has a construction plan detailing how the corners are to be made and so on. Wood is a good material. It won't stop the fire forever but it will hold it back long enough for the Fire Department to do their thing.

And the fire resistant paint helps!

There's a brief discussion of the construction requirements here:
http://www.ehs.psu.edu/help/info_sheets/flammable_liquid_storage_cabinet_faq.pdf

Richard

ModGlock17
12-03-2012, 15:06
Keep 'em at the in-law's house. There! Problem solved.

LOL

shotgunred
12-03-2012, 19:16
I just do it the same way the gun shops do. In their own packages on a shelf.

Three-Five-Seven
12-03-2012, 20:31
I always get wrapped around my own axle when this topic comes up. I get very concerned about my own situation. I worry and ask myself "what if?"

Then, I remember that there are four vehicles in the garage attached to my house that (combined) have over fifty gallons of gasoline in them. And, I realize that would create a lot more problems than my "arsenal" would if the worst happened any my house caught fire.

dkf
12-03-2012, 20:42
Actually, a 1" thick wooden cabinet is recommended for all kinds of flammable materials. Paints, solvents, powder and probably primers (I'm not sure about the primers but I am absolutely certain about the rest).


We never use wood cabinets or any of that crap out in industry and OSHA came through regularly. Flammables were stored in steel cabinets (made especially for storing flammables) with removable plugs for the firemen to stick a hose into.(like in your link) Notice they are NOT made of wood.(gee I wonder why) The same heat that would make paint bubble on the steel cabinet will burst the wood cabinet into flames.

I actually have one at home they were throwing away at work. http://www.securallproducts.com/securall.asp?from=http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=flammable+storage&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35&to=flammable.htm

Primers in an ammo box are not under pressure or compressed in any way. There is airspace and when/if the primers go off the latch will fail and any blast will most likely go upward. One could argue the box could actually help contain the blast.

When was the last time there was a story in your local papers about a house blowing up due to improper primer storage??:dunno:


Well then what would all the worry warts worry about? I can already see in the near future bright shiney blue Dillon primer and powder storage cabinets. Would sell like hotcakes.

fredj338
12-04-2012, 00:11
We never use wood cabinets or any of that crap out in industry and OSHA came through regularly. Flammables were stored in steel cabinets (made especially for storing flammables) with removable plugs for the firemen to stick a hose into.(like in your link) Notice they are NOT made of wood.(gee I wonder why) The same heat that would make paint bubble on the steel cabinet will burst the wood cabinet into flames.
.
If this were true, why does NFPA call for a wood storage locker for powder? Yes, I have seen metal & even concrete ones, but for the home owner, a wood footlocker works, is lockable & easily moved if needed during a fire. Maybe someone will sacrafice say 5K primers in a 30cal steel ammo can in a firepit & report back to us. It won't be me, not for $100 worth of primers.

DWARREN123
12-04-2012, 02:25
I keep mine in a old plastic medicine bottle, if I have any. Easy to store and does not take up a lot of space.

dkf
12-04-2012, 03:21
If this were true, why does NFPA call for a wood storage locker for powder? Yes, I have seen metal & even concrete ones, but for the home owner, a wood footlocker works, is lockable & easily moved if needed during a fire. Maybe someone will sacrafice say 5K primers in a 30cal steel ammo can in a firepit & report back to us. It won't be me, not for $100 worth of primers.

A wood cabinet is still better than nothing and is identifiable as a storage device and most homeowners make stuff of wood. The NFPA probably is under the assumption that powder is highly succeptable to sparks from static electricity which has not really been found to be the case. I would bet most people that will see that 1" requirement will go out and buy some finished 1x10 or 1x12 and end up with a 3/4" thick piece of wood to make a cabinet out of. Several years inside that wood box will be nice and dry.

I thought 5k primers would be chump change for you Fred. You really don't need to blow 5k primers to test, it can be scaled down with a smaller container. For long term primer and powder storage I am more concerned with keeping moisture out so into an ammo box and into a cabinet or under the bench is fine for me. In a fire I figure they are a lost cause no matter what.

Fear Night
12-04-2012, 05:43
Yes, proper storage is required. Putting them in a locked metal ammo can is not a good idea. In a firem that becomes a bomb as the priemrs start to cook off.
Wouldn't the same logic apply for loaded ammo? Having a few thousand rounds of ammo stored in a .50Cal Ammo Can is going to be a nice bomb as well.

F106 Fan
12-04-2012, 07:32
We never use wood cabinets or any of that crap out in industry and OSHA came through regularly. Flammables were stored in steel cabinets (made especially for storing flammables) with removable plugs for the firemen to stick a hose into.(like in your link) Notice they are NOT made of wood.(gee I wonder why) The same heat that would make paint bubble on the steel cabinet will burst the wood cabinet into flames.


Not too many examples of gun powder being stored in industry. It's mostly just paints and lubricants. Nevertheless we used metal flammable storage cabinets as well.

However, you are technically wrong about wood storage lockers. There's a reason that they are legally acceptable and in many cases recommended: They are designed by experts who understand fire.

It's pretty difficult to get a flat sheet of plywood starting to burn. The fire retardant paint blisters and helps protect the wood and the cabinet only needs to delay the fire for a few minutes (probably 10 at most), just long enough for the fire department to get water on it.

We're not talking about house paint. Intumescent paint is designed for the specific purpose of protecting the substrate:
http://www.flamort.com/images/FLAMORT_PAINT.pdf

Notice that the requirement is for 1" of wood. Not 1/2" or 5/8" or 3/4" but a full 1". The corner rabbetting eliminates a straight path through the joints. The cross screwing makes the joints structurally sound (as does the rabbetting). High quality hinges and a 3 point door latch keep the cabinet closed. Like all fire rated cabinets, the door must be self-closing. This design was engineered by experts, it is NOT an Internet design.

The design is fully NFPA approved.

Richard

unclebob
12-04-2012, 08:03
If memory severs me right a powder storage container should be made out of 1Ē solid core wood, the seams are made that if the powder starts to burn and builds up pressure inside of the box the seams give way to release the pressure. The container is mounted on non-rubber wheels. With nonmetal handles for pulling the container out of the house. What was recommended was a rope.
No I have not made this type of container. Yes I had a house fire and if the fire department was about two minutes later I could be able to tell you first hand of what would have happened if the fire had reached the reloading room

ModGlock17
12-04-2012, 10:36
Wouldn't the same logic apply for loaded ammo? Having a few thousand rounds of ammo stored in a .50Cal Ammo Can is going to be a nice bomb as well.

That's what I tried to point out earlier. If primers are that sensitive, dropping a cartridge on ceramic tile would set it off.

We'd have primers go off at every reloading station. Rounds would go off often at Police Academy, LOL !


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unclebob
12-04-2012, 10:50
I know of a 40mm round that was dropped and hitting the tarmac setting off the round. Did the primer hit something on the way down? I donít know I was not on the load crew that night. When it comes to explosives nothing is 100% for sure.

stevelyn
12-05-2012, 04:24
I just keep everything on open storage shelves where I can find it.

My primers are in their original containers. If they go off it'll be more like a string of firecrackers going off than than a bomb. The powder will be a hiss and a whistle as it burns.

I think the V-V warning you read is a bit overly lawyered.

F106 Fan
12-05-2012, 07:50
That's what I tried to point out earlier. If primers are that sensitive, dropping a cartridge on ceramic tile would set it off.

We'd have primers go off at every reloading station. Rounds would go off often at Police Academy, LOL !


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And yet, primer tubes on loading presses have been known to chainfire with somewhat disastrous results.

Richard

jmorris
12-05-2012, 08:01
I don't keep them in a glass jar but if my house burns down I have more to worry about than 70 or 80 thousand primers going off.

If even one set of my Oxy/act tanks went off in the shop, it would be gone, what's a few primers.


That being said I keep the 50 BMG, other bulk loaded ammo and powders along with primers within a few steps from a window. Would chunk it out the window if I could or just tell the firemen to watch this one, if I couldn't.

ModGlock17
12-05-2012, 09:00
Hold a primer in the slingshot thumb pad, and let it go at a rocky wall. Be sure to stand far away. That could be fun!


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sellersm
12-05-2012, 12:48
I know of a 40mm round that was dropped and hitting the tarmac setting off the round. Did the primer hit something on the way down? I donít know I was not on the load crew that night. When it comes to explosives nothing is 100% for sure.

^^^This! Stuff happens, not everything follows the laws of physics as they're supposed to, and lawyers are alive & well in this nation. If everything that could happen, really did happen, then none of us would be here talking about it, would we?

unclebob
12-05-2012, 13:08
^^^This! Stuff happens, not everything follows the laws of physics as they're supposed to, and lawyers are alive & well in this nation. If everything that could happen, really did happen, then none of us would be here talking about it, would we?

What are you saying that never happened?

fredj338
12-05-2012, 13:10
Wouldn't the same logic apply for loaded ammo? Having a few thousand rounds of ammo stored in a .50Cal Ammo Can is going to be a nice bomb as well.

Except that the roudns are contained so one detonating would not likely set of a chain reaction. Primers are that sensative. Why you can ship primed brass or ammo w/o a HM fee, they don't consider them explosives if contained.:dunno:

ModGlock17
12-05-2012, 13:27
Contained ?? Primer indirect contact with powder, in a round, is contained?? The same as the Jumbo Shrimp oxymoron.

Kentguy
12-05-2012, 14:01
Read through the posts once again and there is a lot of really good suggestions here however, it seems to me that if you start spending money preparing for every possible contingency that could happen to your primers/powder... you'll never have enough money to even buy any primers or powder anyway!

Just use your common sense - storing in bulk is fine as long as you keep your inventory away from excessive heat and moisture. They are not going to spontaneously combust just because you happen to have 10K-20K or whatever stored in one spot.

If you are just not comfortable with storing large amounts of the stuff - Just don't buy that much!

sorry for the rant... :rant: Bad day.

Fear Night
12-05-2012, 14:25
For the people that store them in Ammo cans, wouldn't it be sufficient to just unlatch the lid? The seal should have enough contact to keep out most moisture, and if any still got in, some desiccant stored inside would absorb it. If the primers inside the can happen to combust, the lid would easily fling open to release the pressure.

unclebob
12-05-2012, 14:31
The same as the Jumbo Shrimp oxymoron.

I think that would depend on where you live for it to be called an oxymoron. Here it means a large shrimp, shrimp that you eat. Most people around here would not even think shrimp as being a small something. Shrimp means shrimp.

ModGlock17
12-05-2012, 14:49
I think that would depend on where you live for it to be called an oxymoron. Here it means a large shrimp, shrimp that you eat. Most people around here would not even think shrimp as being a small something. Shrimp means shrimp.

Really!

And some here are accepting the proposition that Primers are same as Grenades ! LOL

Seriously, You guys are good sports. I'm just having fun with you guys here.

sellersm
12-05-2012, 15:18
What are you saying that never happened?

I was referring to the hyped 'fear' that something horrible will happen, as instigated by the 'slip and fall' attorneys, since it's probably those attorneys (or people in corporations afraid of lawsuits from those attorneys) that created such restrictions in the first place...

I mean, really, if all these things are that dangerous and bad for us, how did we ever survive this long as a species?

cajun_chooter
12-05-2012, 15:43
i think that article is just trying to make news... i don't see any difference between bulk primers or bulk loaded ammo..

anyway... i have been stocking up on primers, power & bullets...and i prolly have more than 10,000 primers :shocked:

unclebob
12-05-2012, 16:40
And some here are accepting the proposition that Primers are same as Grenades !

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q281/Unclebob46/Reloading%20bench/100_0861.jpg

This is what less than 100 small pistol primers can do that are in a semi confined space. Yes if you have enough primers in a confined space, and had a way to detonate them you could get the effect of a hand grenade.
I emailed my granddaughter for her to ask her husband what would happen if you put primers and also loaded ammo in ammo cans and if they caught on fire what would happen. He is in the Army EOD. My expertise was just for 5 years loading bombs, rockets, and missiles etc. on airplanes. Then 19 years as a gunner on the AC-130 gunship. Well see if he answers back.
No I did not set them off. A friend of mine did.

ModGlock17
12-05-2012, 21:08
This is what less than 100 small pistol primers can do that are in a semi confined space. Yes if you have enough primers in a confined space, and had a way to detonate them you could get the effect of a hand grenade.

.

A little physics here: the felt power (intensity) of an explosion is reduced by a factor of 4 every time you double your distance from the point of an explosion.

You can Google something like "intensity over 4 pi r square" if you're into it. It's a three-dimensional description of a sphere's surface, as a function of radius from the center of that sphere. We use it to measure, for example, the power of an antenna signal as you move away from that antenna station.

Let's make it simple here. That exploded tube was likely to have a radius of a quarter inch, assume that for now. It got busted by say 100 primers.

Double that radius to Half-inch. Not much, right? Then the intensity of that explosion is reduced by a factor of 4.

Double again, to One-inch radius. The intensity, felt intensity, of that explosion is reduced by a factor of 16.

Double again, to a 2-inch container tube. It is reduced by a factor of 64. Then you won't have a busted container, just a little spat. Nothing like, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like a HAND GRENADE.

Moral of the physics story: give some space, not much space, and a primer exploding power is nothing but an annoyance.

FYI, there is a lot more explosive power in a finger sized fire cracker ...

Now, more relevant to your excellent service to our country (and I mean that!). I'm sure you know about M.O.A.B., right? The 10 ton bomb wasn't much of a development. Do you know why? Refer to physics. Intensity reduces so fast as you gain distance from the point of explosion. Distance is your best friend.

In fact, for kill power, you're better off dropping 10 1-ton bombs 1/8th mile from each others than to drop 1 10-ton bomb in a single location. That's the only way of mitigating the reduction of power due to distance. So in this sense, the cluster bomb was a more useful development than MOAB.