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smokin762
12-08-2012, 18:22
As I have stated before, I am new to reloading. I own the Lyman Manual and the Hornady Manual. Some things are a little unclear to me. For example, which manual do I want to go by when using Accurate No. 5 Powder with Hornady 230gr. FMJ-RN bullets for reloading .45 ACP?

The other day, I loaded up my first batch to take to the range. I went with the data from the Lyman Manual except I didnít use their recommendation of going with an OAL of 1.272Ē. I decided to go with an OAL of 1.253Ē. This was the same measurement as the UMC factory loaded ammunition that I already had on hand. This measurement chambered nicely for both my Glock 30 and 36 and did not enter the rifling before it was supposed to.

I know I probably shouldnít have done this especially since I am new to reloading but I know how I am. I will always wonder what it is like. I went with the max powder charge from the Lyman manual. The Lyman manual max powder charge for AA No.5 is 8.2 grains. While the Hornady manual states a max charge for AA No.5 is 7.9 grains.

I now donít feel like the max charge is needed. I am glad I got that over with. I now want to reduce the charge and test that ammunition to see how accurate it is. My goal is to reload reliable and accurate ammunition.

The 25 Yard target may not be the best of shooting but I am hoping with reloading, Iíll get better.

If anybody has any tips please fill me in. :wavey:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1704&pictureid=6157

Target at 21 Feet.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1702&pictureid=6155

Target at 25 Yards.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1703&pictureid=6156

DoctaGlockta
12-08-2012, 19:10
You are brand new to reloading so for your very first rounds you started with a max charge and a shorter OAL :dunno:

When you say 'I will always wonder what it is like?' Do you mean possibly blowing up your glock and hurting yourself?

At least you did this with the 45acp.

Welcome to the funny farm.

Colorado4Wheel
12-08-2012, 21:39
Never ever do that again. Always start low, work it up, watch for pressure signs. You we're over Max by a decent amount. You got lucky. Don't tempt fate again.

Smoker
12-08-2012, 21:51
Excellent advice above, take it seriously..

smokin762
12-08-2012, 21:52
You are brand new to reloading so for your very first rounds you started with a max charge and a shorter OAL :dunno:

When you say 'I will always wonder what it is like?' Do you mean possibly blowing up your glock and hurting yourself?

At least you did this with the 45acp.

Welcome to the funny farm.

If the max load is in the manual, then wouldnít that be considered to be a safe load? I donít see how it would be a problem. I would understand if I went over the max charge, then that would be considered to be unsafe and irresponsible.

From what I have read about before I start this project, .45 ACP is a good caliber to start with because it is a little more forgiving with pressures. That is why I started with it first. Now, I know more is not always better.

smokin762
12-08-2012, 21:57
Never ever do that again. Always start low, work it up, watch for pressure signs. You we're over Max by a decent amount. You got lucky. Don't tempt fate again.

Please explain how I was over pressure. The Hornady manual says to have a C.O.L. of 1.230" while the Lyman manual states it should be at 1.272".

sig357fan
12-08-2012, 22:26
Published reloading data is designed to be safe in modern firearms of good manufacture in good working condition, now that being said, the data can’t account for the variables that come into play when components are mixed and matched with what each individual reloader uses.

Had you used a different powder/cartridge combination with less user friendly characteristics, a max charge with a short COL could have resulted in a far less pleasant experience.

The best practice in reloading is begin with the starting load data and work up in 0.1/0.2 increments, loading a handful of rounds at each increment to evaluate for function and accuracy. Once you’ve reached your function/accuracy goal, there really isn’t any reason to go further.

If you get to max without any signs of over pressure and still haven't reached your function/accuracy goal, then change a component and start the process over. I know, I know, it’s time consuming, but, I’ve more time than fingers and want to keep it that way.

Just the way I see it.


Sig357fan

attrapereves
12-08-2012, 22:59
Are you sure you're reading the load data correctly? Accurate Arms load data lists 7.8gr as their minimum and 8.7gr as their max.

I got decent accuracy with a 230gr Zero FMJ bullet over 8.0gr of AA#5 with an OAL of 1.250", but found it unusually dirty. I think it's because AA#5 seems to shoot better with loads near max. Since I was just looking for a standard velocity range load, I stick with AA#2 because it burns cleaner.

smokin762
12-08-2012, 23:31
Are you sure you're reading the load data correctly? Accurate Arms load data lists 7.8gr as their minimum and 8.7gr as their max.

I got decent accuracy with a 230gr Zero FMJ bullet over 8.0gr of AA#5 with an OAL of 1.250", but found it unusually dirty. I think it's because AA#5 seems to shoot better with loads near max. Since I was just looking for a standard velocity range load, I stick with AA#2 because it burns cleaner.

I donít have the Accurate Manual. I didnít notice one at the book table at the gun show. I just picked up the Lyman and Hornady Reloading Manuals.

Now I am really confused. :faint:

The Hornady manual states for AA#5 with Hornady 230 gr. FMJRN start powder charge of 6.5 gr. Max powder charge of 7.9 gr.

The Lyman manual states for AA#5 with a 225 gr. FMJRN start powder charge of 6.6 gr. Max powder charge of 8.2 gr.

You say the Accurate manual says with a 230 gr. FMJRN and AA #5 is start powder charge of 7.8 gr. and the max powder charge is 8.7 gr.?

m2hmghb
12-09-2012, 00:15
The reloading manuals list recipes that are put into THEIR specific receivers and barrels. Now you don't know if the barrel is loose or tight chambered so that right off the bat can cause a pressure issue. In addition you don't know if YOUR barrel might be loose or tight chambered, if the rifling is tight or loose, if there is a burr in the barrel, if the throat is tight, if the manufacturer's lot of powder was revised from the manual, if the bullet was lengthened and so on. Those are only a FEW of the variables.

Now let me explain a bit about pressure, the shorter your over all length the higher the pressure. Some powders will flash differently depending on how short the load is, up to all the powder going off at once instead of in a controlled fashion.

The MAX loads listed in the manual are the maximum they suggest FOR THEIR receiver and barrel combination based upon pressure testing. If there is a problem in your firearm, say the barrel is tighter then normal so the burn characteristics of the powder change, you can have an over pressure situation which can be catastrophic. Think of the start and max loads as green light red light, you hit max you don't go above that, but you start at green because it's safe.


Because of the differences in each company's test equipment and also in the way they chose to share the data that is why you get the differences in loads. In addition the way the bullet is constructed plays a big role. Each manufacturer has a different bullet length and that length will vary from batch to batch to get the weight to the correct point.


Reloading is like baking, you follow the recipe within the guidelines experimenting within them to get the final result you want. If you don't follow the recipe your cake might be overleavened or it might be a hockey puck.

Colorado4Wheel
12-09-2012, 00:33
You took a recipe. Used the Max charge and then shortened the OAL. That makes it over Max. You don't get to borrow another recipes oal and just plug it in. Follow the recipe. Work it up. Go longer not shorter, lighter not heavier and work things up slowly.

fredj338
12-09-2012, 01:23
All manuals are diff because they have slightly diff components & all have diff test platforms. So the wise move is to take avg starting data & work up from there. What you are doing, starting w/ max data, is reloading suicide. Go back to the books, read them again, you missed the part about using starting data or reducing max loads 10% & starting there.
OAL, noobs really get this messed up. Keep in mind, OAL IS ALWAYS BULLET & GUN SPECIFIC! I don't care what a manual says, Lyman is a good expample. They quote SAAMI max OAL, which may or may not work, depends on which manuf RNFMJ & which test platform. You MUST make sure the bullet fits your barrel & magazine. SO making dummy rounds & trying them in your removed barrel is prudent.
Again, DO NOT use max data, I don't care whos book it's in. It is safe in that exact test platform & that is not yours. So you ALWAYS work up to max data in 1/10gr increments, never loading more than 10rds to test. This isn't rocket science but you can seriously mess things up going too fast & not understaning the process. Reloading manuals are guides, not gospel. Slow down, do some add'l research before you become another one of those Darwin projects I keep hearing about. A KB is not a fun thing, at least that is what I hear, I have managed to avoid them by prudent reloaidng practices.

F106 Fan
12-09-2012, 01:44
The Accurate Arms Reloading Manual lists:

No.5 230 NOS FMJ 7.8 816 8.7 927 19,300 1.250


If you want to quote the AA data, then fine. Your load is well under max (if you are loading 8.2 gr) and there is probably nothing wrong with your OAL.

You should always check to see that the bullet doesn't impact the rifling. I have always loaded to 1.250" for 230 gr FMJ and LRN as well as 200 gr LSWC.

Hornady is usually pretty light on their loads. Speer is usually a good deal heavier. Unfortunately, Speer doesn't list a load for your combination either.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

Richard

Kentguy
12-09-2012, 07:27
Smokin762,

These other guys have given you tons of great advice so I will not re-hash that, however what I have found went testing my ammo is; The "Max" load does not always produce the most accurate load. If you (as stated) start low and test up you'll find some powders actually will give you better results at a lower than max charge.

Another tip here is when shooting/testing your loads try this, shoot a quantity (1 clip) off a table from some sort of gun rest. This will take any movement from your hand out of the picture, than repeat with (1 clip) in a standing free hand position. This will give you a "feel" for the round - firing, kick and most importantly the speed at which you can re-acquire your target.

This will give you a more realist picture as to how your reloads act/react in your pistol. The word "accuracy" is a bit subjective here, to some if you hit the broad side of the barn they consider that accurate, to others if you can not hit a knot in one of the pines which make up the barn than that round is not accurate... I think you understand what I'm driving at.

Also get in a habit or writing down your observations just after each test round is fired. sometimes the littlest things can be the most important when coming up with a really good round, unfortunately these observations can be soon forgotten as time passes... (believe me the older you get the more this becomes true).

Three words which are vital to reload;

Experimentation
Observation
Documentation - Always remember - The shortest pencil is better than the longest memory.

Just some off the cuff tips, good luck and be safe

smokin762
12-09-2012, 08:22
Smokin762,

These other guys have given you tons of great advice so I will not re-hash that, however what I have found went testing my ammo is; The "Max" load does not always produce the most accurate load. If you (as stated) start low and test up you'll find some powders actually will give you better results at a lower than max charge.

Another tip here is when shooting/testing your loads try this, shoot a quantity (1 clip) off a table from some sort of gun rest. This will take any movement from your hand out of the picture, than repeat with (1 clip) in a standing free hand position. This will give you a "feel" for the round - firing, kick and most importantly the speed at which you can re-acquire your target.

This will give you a more realist picture as to how your reloads act/react in your pistol. The word "accuracy" is a bit subjective here, to some if you hit the broad side of the barn they consider that accurate, to others if you can not hit a knot in one of the pines which make up the barn than that round is not accurate... I think you understand what I'm driving at.

Also get in a habit or writing down your observations just after each test round is fired. sometimes the littlest things can be the most important when coming up with a really good round, unfortunately these observations can be soon forgotten as time passes... (believe me the older you get the more this becomes true).

Three words which are vital to reload;

Experimentation
Observation
Documentation - Always remember - The shortest pencil is better than the longest memory.

Just some off the cuff tips, good luck and be safe

I did intend to use sand bags. After I unloaded everything from the car, I realized I forgot my sandbags. At that point, it was too late. I just did the best I could.

I did take a box of UMC factory loaded 230 gr. FMJRN. My intent was to compare them with my reloads. However, the pistol range started to fill up and I was getting frustrated waiting to change out my target.

I figured for sure, with it being 41 degrees outside and rainy that nobody would be there. I ended up using that box of factory ammunition on the Bowling Pins and got the heck out of there. I know the ammunition I reloaded did not have any different recoil than factory ammunition.

smokin762
12-09-2012, 08:53
The Accurate Arms Reloading Manual lists:


If you want to quote the AA data, then fine. Your load is well under max (if you are loading 8.2 gr) and there is probably nothing wrong with your OAL.

You should always check to see that the bullet doesn't impact the rifling. I have always loaded to 1.250" for 230 gr FMJ and LRN as well as 200 gr LSWC.

Hornady is usually pretty light on their loads. Speer is usually a good deal heavier. Unfortunately, Speer doesn't list a load for your combination either.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

Richard

Sweet, I made a copy of their Reloading Data. Thank you for posting that link.

The problem now is this is one more manual that does not have the same information. Now, I have 3 manuals to go by.

I get yelled at if I use the Lyman and Hornady manual, but everything is okay if I used the Accurate manual. So confusing. :faint:

As I stated in another thread this past week, I did check to make sure the bullet was not impacting the rifling.

I removed the barrels in my Glock 30 and 36. I then placed an empty case into the chamber as a reference point. I then measured the distance the case was protruding from the chamber side of the barrel. I then inserted a UMC factory loaded bullet and measured it. After that, I did the same thing with a dummy bullet. I got the same measurement with all three.

After this, I looked down the barrel with a factory loaded bullet and a dummy bullet and could see the edge of the brass case. For me, this was a sign the bullet was not entering the rifling.

Iíll re adjust my seating die for the OAL measurement of 1.250Ē. I had thought if I made the OAL length a little long it would have reduced any pressures, making it a little safer with the max charge of powder.

I know, in an earlier thread this week, you stated to dance with the one you brought to the party. With all the data, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around all this. :dunno:

Kentguy
12-09-2012, 10:01
Smokin762,

Let me offer one other piece of advise if I may; One thing about reloading that was told to me when I began was that the act of putting together a bullet is very easy, that science behind it takes some serious understanding & homework. There are no short-cuts!

Numbers differ from manual to manual based on several reasons, one such item is the method they use and the barrel type/length used to test their loads. Longer barrels will produce faster velocities, so find out what they used and factor that in accordingly.

Develop your own method of gathering informing, and working up loads, and stick with it. Consistency is the name of the game, If not, than your findings will be all over the board and ultimately unsafe.

If you already know this then just circular file this.

Use a standard such as duplicating factory loads; For example since you posted about .45 ACP loads, these are the numbers from a .45 ACP factory +P load.
Hornady "Custom" Ammunition (Factory Ammo)
230g XTP HP +P
Velocity - Box listed @ 950 fps / 887.6 fps my 5 shot average @ 75 degrees
OAL - 1.230"
Test Gun - Glock model 21 w/4.60" barrel

Take their velocity numbers now go to your reloading manual, If you want to use Hornady's or some others thats fine, find the section which lists 230g bullets, look for a powder you have on the shelf, in your case AA#5. The test charges will increase along with the velocity. With your "standard" factory numbers you can compare factory velocity to the velocity listed and corresponding charge weight(s) listed in your manual.

This method will give you a firm footing on which to start working up your loads. In this case the Hornady manual does not give you charge weight that will match (or exceed) the factory +P load... which is GOOD! But like book ends you have a clear idea of where the factory loads are, and where you should start and end.

Ask lots of questions... everyone here has a great deal of experience and knowledge and can be of a great value to you as you work through your own reloading experience.

I hope this helps.

F106 Fan
12-09-2012, 10:24
The problem now is this is one more manual that does not have the same information. Now, I have 3 manuals to go by.

I get yelled at if I use the Lyman and Hornady manual, but everything is okay if I used the Accurate manual. So confusing. :faint:


That is what makes this reloading thing so complicated. There just isn't one nationally standardized set of load data. A lot of it has been lawyered up and dumbed down. Some of it has been tested but not with your gun. Sometimes I wonder where the **** it came from!

Does it seem reasonable to search through every manual looking for the biggest MAX? Beats me! What does seem reasonable is to start on the low side, incrementally step up the load and stop when the chronograph says you have reached some magic point (if your looking for YOUR max) or you hit a sweet spot in accuracy (if that is the goal) or recoil. But it's the 'start low' thing that is important!

If you take successive chronograph readings and for every increase in powder, there is a reasonable increase in velocity, you can step it up again. If, for an increase in powder, there is either no increase or a much larger increase, then you are at or over the top. Always within the limits of the data, of course!

Only the 10mm and 9mm Major guys are pushing clear off the page. Well, back when wheel guns roamed the earth, so did the .357 and .44 Mag folks. Many a gun has been destroyed and it shows no signs of stopping any time soon.

The idea that you can tell anything by 'reading' primers is debunked starting on page 59 of Speer #14. Federal primers flatten in a wind storm, others may maintain their shape up through a 20% overcharge. Of course, if the primer is pierced or the magazine blows out the bottom of the gun, you may have gone too far.



Iíll re adjust my seating die for the OAL measurement of 1.250Ē. I had thought if I made the OAL length a little long it would have reduced any pressures, making it a little safer with the max charge of powder.

I know, in an earlier thread this week, you stated to dance with the one you brought to the party. With all the data, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around all this. :dunno:

Don't set the bullet back on my account! Most of the data I have shows a 230 gr as 1.250". It's what I have always used. The thing is, I haven't changed my load since the early '80s. I haven't done much experimentation on .45 ammo. It goes bang, the velocity makes power factor and, if I do my part on the front sights, the bullet goes where I want. Good enough...

I don't find pistol ammo interesting. Once I have a load, I leave it alone. As a result, I don't spend a lot of time pouring over manuals looking for some quirk in the data. For rifle ammo, I spend a lot of quality time with Sierra.

We all make choices in this reloading thing. Some choices are better than others.

Richard

RustyL
12-09-2012, 11:03
A good thread. I'm new to reloading...well...I have purchased everything I need to get started. I'm getting my room set up and hopefully by the end of the month I will be ready to practice what I have been learning.

Thanks for everyones honesty and willingness to discuss your experiences and knowledge on this subject.

Kentguy
12-09-2012, 11:19
RustyL,

Welcome to the wonder world of reloading.

Please feel free to post any questions you might have, someone in here will have an answer for you or at least be able to point you in the right direction.

attrapereves
12-09-2012, 11:20
In my Nosler manual, they list their minimum at 7.5gr (740fps) and the max at 8.5gr (840fps) out of a 5" barrel with 1.200" as OAL. This data is slightly slower compared to Accurate's. Even with this, their min and max charges are fairly similar.

Your reloads should have been great. As I said before, I saw no signs of overpressure with my 8.0gr loadings out of a G30. I clocked these reloads at about 850fps out of my Glock 30. I just found them to be slightly dirty. I believe this is due to the fact that 8.0gr is near minimum and I find AA powders to burn dirty when loaded near minimum.

When working up charges, load up 3 to 5 rounds in 0.2gr increments, maybe starting mid way between min and max. Just see which ones you like the best and shoot accurately with.

SARDG
12-09-2012, 11:22
A good thread. I'm new to reloading...well...I have purchased everything I need to get started. I'm getting my room set up and hopefully by the end of the month I will be ready to practice what I have been learning.

Thanks for everyones honesty and willingness to discuss your experiences and knowledge on this subject.
As long as you've purchased plated bullets and a combined seat/crimp die, you should be GTG... :shocked:

NO, if you haven't already, don't do either.

smokin762
12-09-2012, 12:06
[/SIZE][/FONT]

That is what makes this reloading thing so complicated. There just isn't one nationally standardized set of load data. A lot of it has been lawyered up and dumbed down. Some of it has been tested but not with your gun. Sometimes I wonder where the **** it came from!

Does it seem reasonable to search through every manual looking for the biggest MAX? Beats me! What does seem reasonable is to start on the low side, incrementally step up the load and stop when the chronograph says you have reached some magic point (if your looking for YOUR max) or you hit a sweet spot in accuracy (if that is the goal) or recoil. But it's the 'start low' thing that is important!

If you take successive chronograph readings and for every increase in powder, there is a reasonable increase in velocity, you can step it up again. If, for an increase in powder, there is either no increase or a much larger increase, then you are at or over the top. Always within the limits of the data, of course!

Only the 10mm and 9mm Major guys are pushing clear off the page. Well, back when wheel guns roamed the earth, so did the .357 and .44 Mag folks. Many a gun has been destroyed and it shows no signs of stopping any time soon.

The idea that you can tell anything by 'reading' primers is debunked starting on page 59 of Speer #14. Federal primers flatten in a wind storm, others may maintain their shape up through a 20% overcharge. Of course, if the primer is pierced or the magazine blows out the bottom of the gun, you may have gone too far.

[SIZE=3]

Don't set the bullet back on my account! Most of the data I have shows a 230 gr as 1.250". It's what I have always used. The thing is, I haven't changed my load since the early '80s. I haven't done much experimentation on .45 ammo. It goes bang, the velocity makes power factor and, if I do my part on the front sights, the bullet goes where I want. Good enough...

I don't find pistol ammo interesting. Once I have a load, I leave it alone. As a result, I don't spend a lot of time pouring over manuals looking for some quirk in the data. For rifle ammo, I spend a lot of quality time with Sierra.

We all make choices in this reloading thing. Some choices are better than others.

Richard

[FONT=Calibri]Right now, I donít have a Chronograph. That will have to come later.

If I chose to go with the Powder manufactures data, would that be safe? It does not list the Hornady FMJRN bullet for the No. 5 Powder. Only the No.7 lists the Hornady 230gr. XTP. Which I also have. The bullet not the No. 7 Powder.

The Accurate Powder manual that I down loaded this morning states,

No.5 230 NOS FMJ Start Load: 7.8 gr. Max Load: 8.7 gr. C.O.L. 1.250Ē.

According to this information, I am slightly over on the C.O.L. by.003 and .4 gr. Over the Start Load: 7.8 gr.

smokin762
12-09-2012, 12:20
In my Nosler manual, they list their minimum at 7.5gr (740fps) and the max at 8.5gr (840fps) out of a 5" barrel with 1.200" as OAL. This data is slightly slower compared to Accurate's. Even with this, their min and max charges are fairly similar.

Your reloads should have been great. As I said before, I saw no signs of overpressure with my 8.0gr loadings out of a G30. I clocked these reloads at about 850fps out of my Glock 30. I just found them to be slightly dirty. I believe this is due to the fact that 8.0gr is near minimum and I find AA powders to burn dirty when loaded near minimum.

When working up charges, load up 3 to 5 rounds in 0.2gr increments, maybe starting mid way between min and max. Just see which ones you like the best and shoot accurately with.

I wish I would have remembered my sandbags. The loads I went with didnít act or recoil any different than the factory loaded UMC ammunition I shot. It wasnít any louder and the guy next to me didnít complain any. All my brass landed in the same area as it always does. Over my right shoulder just to the right of where I stand.

You know, I am new to reloading. But I think I understand what you are saying about in the middle. I have said this to a couple of reloaders and all of them get ticked and get an attitude with me. Then they get snappy with me and say in the middle of what.

I would expect seasoned reloaders would understand that youíre talking about mid-range of the Min and Max Powder charge. This is one of the reason I stopped asking some question. The looks are like daggers when you donít know all the terminology.

F106 Fan
12-09-2012, 12:40
Right now, I don’t have a Chronograph. That will have to come later.

If I chose to go with the Powder manufactures data, would that be safe? It does not list the Hornady FMJRN bullet for the No. 5 Powder. Only the No.7 lists the Hornady 230gr. XTP. Which I also have. The bullet not the No. 7 Powder.



This is where judgement comes to play. And it is why everybody says to work up slowly.

You might assume that all 230 gr FMJ bullets are the same. Well, they aren't. The bullet profile plays a big part. Some bullets have a fairly blunt nose with a longer skirt (more barrel drag) and some have a more rounded nose and a shorter skirt. I have noticed quite a difference between Winchester, Precision Delta and Zero bullets - all 230 gr FMJ. Since I am nowhere near MAX, I load them all the same and it seems to work out. But that's just for my loads.

There is very little similarity between an XTP and a RN bullet. The weight may be the same but the XTPs are hollow-point versus round nose. One might assume that an XTP bullet is a little longer and, therefore, expect the OAL to be a little longer. I haven't checked...

I have always used the powder manufacturer's data. It's just that Speer and Hornady have such nice manuals. I prefer the Hodgdon site because they give a MIN/MAX whereas Alliant gives only a MAX and says to start 10% below. But no real data about what a MIN load might do.



The Accurate Powder manual that I down loaded this morning states,

No.5 230 NOS FMJ Start Load: 7.8 gr. Max Load: 8.7 gr. C.O.L. 1.250”.

According to this information, I am slightly over on the C.O.L. by.003 and .4 gr. Over the Start Load: 7.8 gr.

Oddly, my Nosler manual doesn't even discuss a 230 gr FMJ.

If you are happy with AA#5 and you accuracy is acceptable, it seems like you should be GTG. You are nowhere near MAX.

Richard

smokin762
12-09-2012, 12:56
It seems a chronograph is an important tool for reloading. I think Iíll make this purchase when I can. Maybe this will help me make decisions with what charge to use.

RustyL
12-09-2012, 12:58
I appreciate that, right now I trying to secure 100 sq. ft. for my project. The wife has 2000 sq. ft. to use as she wishes. I figure I would clear this room out and paint, been wanting to put new flooring in it too, so I'm going to DEMAND at least that much space for my own...:whistling:

I'm sure I will be asking some dumb *** questions before long but, as long I die with all my fingers, I'm cool with that.



RustyL,

Welcome to the wonder world of reloading.

Please feel free to post any questions you might have, someone in here will have an answer for you or at least be able to point you in the right direction.

PCJim
12-09-2012, 22:00
I appreciate that, right now I trying to secure 100 sq. ft. for my project. The wife has 2000 sq. ft. to use as she wishes. I figure I would clear this room out and paint, been wanting to put new flooring in it too, so I'm going to DEMAND at least that much space for my own...:whistling:

I'm sure I will be asking some dumb *** questions before long but, as long I die with all my fingers, I'm cool with that.

Don't let SWMBO see that word "DEMAND" in your post. We all understand, she definitely will not. :dunno:

Fear Night
12-10-2012, 08:56
I will try not to bash you OP, but anybody else new to reloading needs to learn from this.

Listen up, before you ever load your first batch of ammo, read all the relevant chapters in your reloading manual. In fact, read them TWICE. That's right, I want you to read your manual twice before you ever even think about seating your first round.

After reading the Lyman manual, for instance, you will know that they clearly state more than once that you should ALWAYS start at the "minimum" or "starting" charge. Then, slowly work your way up from there as you experiment with shooting your reloads. In fact, Lyman actually calls the "minimum charge" the "starting charge" in their load data. Is that clear enough for where your first batch of ammo should start?

That is all. Be safe :wavey:

fredj338
12-10-2012, 14:38
You know, I am new to reloading. But I think I understand what you are saying about in the middle. I have said this to a couple of reloaders and all of them get ticked and get an attitude with me. Then they get snappy with me and say in the middle of what.

I would expect seasoned reloaders would understand that youíre talking about mid-range of the Min and Max Powder charge. This is one of the reason I stopped asking some question. The looks are like daggers when you donít know all the terminology.

I mentioned this before, you still don't seem to understand. All companies use diff test platforms & slightly diff comp. So you can NOT expect to just look up the max load & go with that, regarldess of whos data you use. It may work or you may end up in a mess.
So having 3-4 diff manuals, avg the start & max, use that & work up. I recommend 0.1gr increments w/ powders faster than Unique. No more than 0.2gr w/ powders slower than W231. Fast pistol powders build pressure quickly. especially in small volume cases like 9mm & 40.

actionshooter10
12-10-2012, 22:20
Sweet, I made a copy of their Reloading Data. Thank you for posting that link.

The problem now is this is one more manual that does not have the same information. Now, I have 3 manuals to go by.

I get yelled at if I use the Lyman and Hornady manual, but everything is okay if I used the Accurate manual. So confusing. :faint:

As I stated in another thread this past week, I did check to make sure the bullet was not impacting the rifling.

I removed the barrels in my Glock 30 and 36. I then placed an empty case into the chamber as a reference point. I then measured the distance the case was protruding from the chamber side of the barrel. I then inserted a UMC factory loaded bullet and measured it. After that, I did the same thing with a dummy bullet. I got the same measurement with all three.

After this, I looked down the barrel with a factory loaded bullet and a dummy bullet and could see the edge of the brass case. For me, this was a sign the bullet was not entering the rifling.

I’ll re adjust my seating die for the OAL measurement of 1.250”. I had thought if I made the OAL length a little long it would have reduced any pressures, making it a little safer with the max charge of powder.

I know, in an earlier thread this week, you stated to dance with the one you brought to the party. With all the data, I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around all this. :dunno:

Your original post stated:

The other day, I loaded up my first batch to take to the range. I went with the data from the Lyman Manual except I didn’t use their recommendation of going with an OAL of 1.272”. I decided to go with an OAL of 1.253”. This was the same measurement as the UMC factory loaded ammunition that I already had on hand. This measurement chambered nicely for both my Glock 30 and 36 and did not enter the rifling before it was supposed to.

I know I probably shouldn’t have done this especially since I am new to reloading but I know how I am. I will always wonder what it is like. I went with the max powder charge from the Lyman manual. The Lyman manual max powder charge for AA No.5 is 8.2 grains. While the Hornady manual states a max charge for AA No.5 is 7.9 grains.

You got "yelled at" because you went with the max load from the Lyman manual and then reduced the OAL.

The max load was safe with the 1.272" OAL Lyman recomended. When you reduced the OAL to 1.253", you increased the pressure of round past the safe max that Lyman tested.

You can't take the max load from one manual and the OAL from another and get a safe result.

If you use one manual, use it only. If you want to use another manual, use everything from that manual. DO NOT mix info from different manuals.

fredj338
12-11-2012, 01:24
Your original post stated:



You got "yelled at" because you went with the max load from the Lyman manual and then reduced the OAL.

The max load was safe with the 1.272" OAL Lyman recomended. When you reduced the OAL to 1.253", you increased the pressure of round past the safe max that Lyman tested.

You can't take the max load from one manual and the OAL from another and get a safe result.

If you use one manual, use it only. If you want to use another manual, use everything from that manual. DO NOT mix info from different manuals.

No it is NOT necessarily safe. That is the point. Their test platform is not your gun. So any published max load should ALWAYS be worked up to. Regardless of the OAL issue, even if you used exact components & put them together exactly the same, you are shooting them in your gun, not a universal receiver. A Glock is not a S&W is not an XD, etc. So you always work up max loads, always. Otherwise, there will be an unhappy incident, gauranteed.:whistling: You might squeek by loading 45acp this way, but get into the 40 or 357sig or rifle rounds, uh baby, look out.

fredj338
12-11-2012, 01:32
It seems a chronograph is an important tool for reloading. I think I’ll make this purchase when I can. Maybe this will help me make decisions with what charge to use.

A chrono is a useful tool, but use it incorrectly & it can actually be worse than not using one. My buddy started reloading, bought all the gear, even a chrono. I walked him thru the process, got him up & running then he calls me & tells me he blew a case head out. Has trying to reach the vel in his short bbl 9mm Kahr, that the Hornady manual said he should be getting, just kept adding powder. Hornady tests in a 4" M39, that was never going to happen w/ a 3" Kahr.
So understanding the process, how powder burn rates & case volumes affect pressures, all this has to be take into account. Even if you had a 4" M39, chances are you could hit pressure signs & be 50fps short of the book data. Why, because ALL guns are diff.:dunno: If you want to just plug & play, stick to loads just off starting data. That will at least keep all your parts together.

actionshooter10
12-11-2012, 20:16
No it is NOT necessarily safe. That is the point. Their test platform is not your gun. So any published max load should ALWAYS be worked up to. Regardless of the OAL issue, even if you used exact components & put them together exactly the same, you are shooting them in your gun, not a universal receiver. A Glock is not a S&W is not an XD, etc. So you always work up max loads, always. Otherwise, there will be an unhappy incident, gauranteed.:whistling: You might squeek by loading 45acp this way, but get into the 40 or 357sig or rifle rounds, uh baby, look out.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

That is what I meant to say.

That was the "best case" safe load and he intentionally exceeded it.

Kentguy
12-12-2012, 08:45
Smokin762..."It seems a chronograph is an important tool for reloading. I think I’ll make this purchase when I can. Maybe this will help me make decisions with what charge to use."

Chronographs are indeed a useful if not vital tool that every reloading should have. Even if it takes some time to scrap the money together for one, I would keep it on the top of your short list of equipment to buy. Without one you can reload, but you never really know just where you are at with your loads. You will only have "someone else's numbers" and not what that load is doing out of your gun!

Velocity & Pressure are extremely important elements in the reloading process. Whatever you can do or read to wrap your head around these elements please do so!

Check out fred's blog on OAL & Pressure;
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=256

Most of your reloading manuals have a chapter on the pressure and the effects of OAL, Powder charge weight, etc.

All of this will help you in developing a much safer and more accurate round. The longer I do this the more I come to affirm that their are no short cut in this game! Remember all of us are not manufacturing candy canes here (like the Christmas reference :supergrin:) but live ammunition.

Good luck and be safe.

F106 Fan
12-12-2012, 09:23
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

That is what I meant to say.

That was the "best case" safe load and he intentionally exceeded it.

The thing is, it was only a MAX load in one reference manual. There are others...

Fact is, the load is only middle-of-the-road in the Accurate Powder manual and the OAL is right on the money. If you believe Accurate data...

The problem with Hornady data is that it has been lawyered up beyond credibility. I like the manual and I use it a lot but the loads are almost always on the light side when compared to something like Speer or a powder manufacturer publication. And it's not like Hornady is close, it is often the case that their MAX load is just barely a MIN in other publications. I think I'm about to leave the Hornady manual behind.

Neither Speer nor Hornady provide any pressure data so it's not possible to compare loads of similar velocities. At least the Accurate publication shows pressure for the MAX loads.

One thing that Accurate does say is that they test their loads in test barrels. You can pretty well bet you won't match their velocity numbers in a real handgun.

Richard

fredj338
12-12-2012, 14:33
Even if they provide pressure data, it is in that exact platform. It will never be the same in your firearm. So posting pressrues can actually be dangerous to a noob that thinks, "well I can go jsut a bit higher as I still have not reached max pressure". That is the issue, you do NOT know what max pressure is in YOUR gun until you find it. Often that is too late.
I have a beautiful custom 280 that is very accurate but I could not reach anything near book vel, even accounting for bbl length, iwith certaqin powders before running into pressure signs. So books are a guide, even if they post pressure numbers. Treat them as such, your gun is the final word.

F106 Fan
12-12-2012, 14:49
Even if they provide pressure data, it is in that exact platform. It will never be the same in your firearm. So posting pressrues can actually be dangerous to a noob that thinks, "well I can go jsut a bit higher as I still have not reached max pressure". That is the issue, you do NOT know what max pressure is in YOUR gun until you find it. Often that is too late.
I have a beautiful custom 280 that is very accurate but I could not reach anything near book vel, even accounting for bbl length, iwith certaqin powders before running into pressure signs. So books are a guide, even if they post pressure numbers. Treat them as such, your gun is the final word.

I was thinking more along the lines that I could get a certain velocity with X pressure using some powder and the same velocity at a lower Y pressure using a different powder.

It's true that I won't get the same velocity. I never do. And I don't worry about the absolute value of the pressure, only how one load relates to another. Some powders get velocity with less pressure than others.

With Hornady or Speer, I have no idea what kinds of pressure are being generated so I can't make that comparison.

The Hodgdon site gives the pressure at both MIN and MAX while the Alliant site gives nothing.

So, I tend to use powders that Hodgdon sells with the exception of a little Alliant Bullseye and Unique.

I'm a retired engineer - I want numbers! I may not understand them but I want to see them.

Richard

fredj338
12-12-2012, 16:33
I was thinking more along the lines that I could get a certain velocity with X pressure using some powder and the same velocity at a lower Y pressure using a different powder.

It's true that I won't get the same velocity. I never do. And I don't worry about the absolute value of the pressure, only how one load relates to another. Some powders get velocity with less pressure than others.

With Hornady or Speer, I have no idea what kinds of pressure are being generated so I can't make that comparison.

The Hodgdon site gives the pressure at both MIN and MAX while the Alliant site gives nothing.

So, I tend to use powders that Hodgdon sells with the exception of a little Alliant Bullseye and Unique.

I'm a retired engineer - I want numbers! I may not understand them but I want to see them.

Richard

That is how I read the tables, but noobs will think just over max is safe. In most instances, over max produces a pressure spike, at least with faster powders. So for exp reloaders, pressure data is helpful. For noobs, it can be, as long as they understand what is going on & how powder burn rates affect pressures, etc. Many will look at the SAAMI max, determiine the max load listed is below that & happily load right there w/o working up. There are few absolutes in reloading, that can not be expressed enough to a noob reloader.

SCmasterblaster
12-13-2012, 14:50
You are doing very well Smokin762.