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cowboy1964
12-11-2012, 08:07
The numbers are mind numbing.

The Treasury will record a deficit of $292 billion for the first two months of fiscal year 2013, CBO estimates - $57 billion more than the shortfall recorded in the same period last year. Revenues rose by $30 billion (or 10 percent), but outlays increased by $87 billion (or 16 percent)

In other words, spending is just increasing increasing increasing.

How much is $292 billion? It's $608 per month for every person in this country over 18. That's just the INCREASE in the debt. Just add it to the $68,000 every person over 18 already owes.

:wavey:

rj1939
12-11-2012, 08:47
You will likely get more of the same from our own debt junkie Benji tomorrow.

rj1939
12-11-2012, 08:53
:popcorn:

I'm just watching the stupidity unfold...........and wondering how long they can kick the can.

series1811
12-11-2012, 09:56
It's okay. Obama is just going to tax the rich to fix this.

Hey, his plan will raise 700 billion (over the next ten years). That's enough, right? :rofl:

http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/04/doing-math-president-obamas-plan-to-tax.html

TheExplorer
12-11-2012, 09:57
And there's so much more to go!

pugman
12-11-2012, 10:19
It's okay. Obama is just going to tax the rich to fix this.

Hey, his plan will raise 700 billion (over the next ten years). That's enough, right? :rofl:

http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/04/doing-math-president-obamas-plan-to-tax.html

If the federal government seized every penny the 400 billionaires in this country have....every house, car, piece of art, stock, bond, bank account, etc. and sold it they would net around $1.4 trillion dollars; this wouldn't cover the deficit spending from 2010

Amongst the many problems of the federal government is they don't have the ability to plan or spend according to any sort of budget. Look at 2010

2.381 Trillion Budgeted vs. 2.165 Trillion received

3.552 Trillion Budgeted vs. 3.721 Trillion Spent

In other words, they took in less then they planned on and spent more they expected.

My company just released a report which quoted the federal government's concern "The federal government projects that national health spending will rise from $2.8 trillion to $4.8 trillion over the coming decade, accounting for nearly 20 percent of the U.S. economy"

Medicare's budget is expected to hit nearly $1 trillion dollars by 2020 in hopes of keeping all the baby boomers alive; its supposed to be insolvent by 2023-2025 depending on whose numbers you want to believe. In order to maintain its levels of service to those on Medicare - taxpayers will need to pay in an additional $7500's each. My wife and I don't have a spare $15K laying around.

What will be interesting is what will be the lynch pin which breaks. What will be more interesting is who shoots first...the Fed or the American people.

One of the main causes of the French Revolution was the bankruptcy of the monarchy. A second was the high taxes put to the poor to maintain the lifestyles of the wealthy...of course here its simply the opposite.

CitizenOfDreams
12-11-2012, 10:22
It would be scary if that debt was ever meant to be paid off. In reality, "292 billion" is just a meaningless abstract number.

aircarver
12-11-2012, 10:28
It's okay. Obama is just going to tax the rich to fix this.

Hey, his plan will raise 700 billion (over the next ten years). That's enough, right? :rofl:


So y'think he's going to "unexpectedly" run short ? ... :shocked:

.

pugman
12-11-2012, 10:44
It would be scary if that debt was ever meant to be paid off. In reality, "292 billion" is just a meaningless abstract number.

Which is the reason why when you hear about how the federal government has paid rent on a space they haven't occupied in fifteen years to the tune of $16 million dollars its meaningless. I would bet anything this is just more corruption where some Senator or Congressman's buddy owns the property.

The federal government could just as well say 292 gazillion and it means as much.

Ruble Noon
12-11-2012, 12:15
"The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion"

Out of a population of 315 million, presently only 115 million Americans have full time, non-government funded jobs.

What could go wrong?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-09/fiscal-cliff-and-constitution-crisis

JBnTX
12-11-2012, 12:30
There's only one solution to debt debt debt debt debt debt debt,
and that's tax tax tax tax tax tax tax.

...and not just the rich, but everybody and everything.

Ruble Noon
12-11-2012, 12:35
There's only one solution to debt debt debt debt debt debt debt,
and that's tax tax tax tax tax tax tax.

...and not just the rich, but everybody and everything.

:shakehead:

aircarver
12-11-2012, 12:40
Successive generations are gonna be picking our nursing homes .... :alex:

(A cardboard box is gonna be lookin' good ... :frown:

.

Atlas
12-11-2012, 13:51
... because we looked the other way while the government ignored the inconvenience of Article 1, Section 10 of the constitution.
Over time the result was inevitable.

Those smart guys who assembled the constitution discussed all of this for two years or so before instituting the best solution possible.
They understood the dangers of uncontrolled government spending.

JBnTX
12-11-2012, 14:29
:shakehead:

Do you think that's not true?

Obama is getting ready to bury this country in massive tax increases on everybody and everything.

Does ":shakehead:" mean you don't believe it, or does it mean you favor those tax increases?

Ruble Noon
12-11-2012, 15:50
Do you think that's not true?

Obama is getting ready to bury this country in massive tax increases on everybody and everything.

Does ":shakehead:" mean you don't believe it, or does it mean you favor those tax increases?

:shakehead: This is because there is no need to worry about paying the debt our politicians have racked up. Our debt won't be paid because it cannot be paid. Besides, the majority of the debt that we are now accruing is debt owed to ourselves, debt that we can default on.

JBnTX
12-11-2012, 16:08
:shakehead: This is because there is no need to worry about paying the debt our politicians have racked up. Our debt won't be paid because it cannot be paid. Besides, the majority of the debt that we are now accruing is debt owed to ourselves, debt that we can default on.


Obama won't let that stop him, from raising taxes.

engineer151515
12-11-2012, 16:31
What this President has done will be judged by future enslaved generations as immoral.

There is only one possible outcome when we make slaves of our grandchildren.

Rebellion.

I predict default. Future generations will refuse to pay.

certifiedfunds
12-11-2012, 17:02
There's only one solution to debt debt debt debt debt debt debt,
and that's tax tax tax tax tax tax tax.

...and not just the rich, but everybody and everything.

Wrong.

Skyhook
12-11-2012, 17:14
Laid a bit of self-imposed 'shock-n-awe' on one of my liberal/progressive associates today.

Asked her what the projected debt is to be.. $16 Trillion, says she with out a flutter of the eyelid.

And, what is the present population of the USA, I asked? About 315 Million, says she.

Ok, I said, now divide that $16 Trillion by 315 Million.. what you will get is the amount of the debt each and every American owes.

Out came the wee electronic device... OPEN went the eyes :shocked:... discussion closed.

certifiedfunds
12-11-2012, 17:17
Laid a bit of self-imposed 'shock-n-awe' on one of my liberal/progressive associates today.

Asked her what the projected debt is to be.. $16 Trillion, says she with out a flutter of the eyelid.

And, what is the present population of the USA, I asked? About 315 Million, says she.

Ok, I said, now divide that $16 Trillion by 315 Million.. what you will get is the amount of the debt each and every American owes.

Out came the wee electronic device... OPEN went the eyes :shocked:... discussion closed.

Except every American doesn't owe it. Only a small % of us owe it.

Otherwise I'd like to settle up now please.

Skyhook
12-11-2012, 17:23
Except every American doesn't owe it. Only a small % of us owe it.

Otherwise I'd like to settle up now please.


Good point... I wish now I had pointed out to her that roughly 50% of Americans do not actually pay much if any tax.

aircarver
12-11-2012, 17:37
Good point... I wish now I had pointed out to her that roughly 50% of Americans do not actually pay much if any tax.

That's exactly why they view it as our problem ... :steamed:

.

juggy4711
12-11-2012, 18:01
There's only one solution to debt debt debt debt debt debt debt,
and that's tax tax tax tax tax tax tax.

...and not just the rich, but everybody and everything.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3BhBBVLKCw5YGxdGPfZD2IlRNYa5XvKMWnAVdu9ZUb4_dCcAA

pugman
12-11-2012, 18:12
""The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion"

Depending on who you want to believe...other sources have numbers much worse than yours.

Debt Clock puts unfunded liabilities north of $121 trillion

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Laurence Kotlikoff, a former Reagan advisor, put the number around $211 Trillion.

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/06/139027615/a-national-debt-of-14-trillion-try-211-trillion

The federal government's net worth at the end of 2011 was a negative $70 trillion..or about $220K per citizen or $660K per tax paying citizen...you and your wife have a spare 1.2 million hanging around.

The numbers at this point are meaningless since default seems to be the only solution at this point. Some feel we could print/inflate our way out of it....but I think default will more likely happen or people will just no longer accept dollars for payment having the dollar crash.

QNman
12-11-2012, 18:14
There's only one solution to debt debt debt debt debt debt debt,
and that's tax tax tax tax tax tax tax.

...and not just the rich, but everybody and everything.

No, that's not the ONLY solution... there are others.

My bet is on hyperinflation and severe devaluation of our currency, the resultant dropping of the dollar as the world's currency standard (further devaluing the dollar), and finally, an attempt to change our style of governance resulting in far less freedom (you know, in exchange for work and bread).

Atlas
12-11-2012, 18:26
No, that's not the ONLY solution... there are others.

My bet is on hyperinflation and severe devaluation of our currency, the resultant dropping of the dollar as the world's currency standard (further devaluing the dollar), and finally, an attempt to change our style of governance resulting in far less freedom (you know, in exchange for work and bread).

I'm betting they will ultimately resort to extreme inflation, but not hyperinflation.

That's because hyperinflation can only be sustained for 2 or 3 years max. After that, everyone just walks away from a currency that has been gang-raped and left for dead.

Our real budget problems extend far into the future beyond 3 years... Socialist inSecurity and Medicare especially.
Those obligations extend 40 - 50 years down the road.

The econ brainiacs at the Federal Reserve understand all this quite well.

When we're deep into the pain of extreme inflation (20%+ ?) it will feel "hyper" anyway.
It's gonna be interesting.

QNman
12-11-2012, 18:39
I'm betting they will ultimately resort to extreme inflation, but not hyperinflation.

That's because hyperinflation can only be sustained for 2 or 3 years max. After that, everyone just walks away from a currency that has been gang-raped and left for dead.

Our real budget problems extend far into the future beyond 3 years... Socialist inSecurity and Medicare especially.
Those obligations extend 40 - 50 years down the road.

The econ brainiacs at the Federal Reserve understand all this quite well.

When we're deep into the pain of extreme inflation (20%+ ?) it will feel "hyper" anyway.
It's gonna be interesting.

Good point... either way, it will be significant devaluation of our currency. And either way, it will hurt, and the lower class will suffer the most - regardless of the tax rate on "the wealthy".

pugman
12-11-2012, 18:44
I'm betting they will ultimately resort to extreme inflation, but not hyperinflation.

That's because hyperinflation can only be sustained for 2 or 3 years max. After that, everyone just walks away from a currency that has been gang-raped and left for dead.

Our real budget problems extend far into the future beyond 3 years... Socialist inSecurity and Medicare especially.
Those obligations extend 40 - 50 years down the road.

The econ brainiacs at the Federal Reserve understand all this quite well.

When we're deep into the pain of extreme inflation (20%+ ?) it will feel "hyper" anyway.
It's gonna be interesting.

No, that's not the ONLY solution... there are others.

My bet is on hyperinflation and severe devaluation of our currency, the resultant dropping of the dollar as the world's currency standard (further devaluing the dollar), and finally, an attempt to change our style of governance resulting in far less freedom (you know, in exchange for work and bread).

It will never get this far...

Medicare will exceed $1 trillion by 2022 or double in the next ten years...

http://www.fiercehealthfinance.com/story/cbo-medicare-medicaid-spending-double-2020/2012-03-14

The federal government is historically very optimistic when it comes to income.

2000 tax revenues were $2.025 Trillion
ten years later in 2010 2.162 trillion

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

If you really want to laugh (or be very scared)...look at what they are estimating by 2017...nearly double 2010's tax receipts?

The point is expenses ARE increasing much faster than revenues.

We will never get to the point of hyperinflation where a gallon of gas costs $50 or a loaf of bread $10...

People will no longer start accepting it and it will simply collapse.

I wonder what color the new money will be?

Atlas
12-11-2012, 18:56
It will never get this far......

I wonder what color the new money will be?

You're correct of course.

About 20 years ago I attended an informal meeting of some folks who were concerned about this.
OK... it was a "constitutional study group", aka a tax-protest group.

They had a guest in his late 50's who was from some east European nation, don't remember where.
He told us to always be on alert for any new currency design, such as different color bills etc.

He said that the typical pattern in many eastern nations had been to introduce the new bills at an exchange of 1-to-1, then in 2 or 3 weeks late on a Friday afternoon announce that on Monday the rate would be 10-to-1, or worse.

Something to consider..

QNman
12-11-2012, 18:59
You're correct of course.

About 20 years ago I attended an informal meeting of some folks who were concerned about this.
OK... it was a "constitutional study group", aka a tax-protest group.

They had a guest in his late 50's who was from some east European nation, don't remember where.
He told us to always be on alert for any new currency design, such as different color bills etc.

He said that the typical pattern in many eastern nations had been to introduce the new bills at an exchange of 1-to-1, then in 2 or 3 weeks late on a Friday afternoon announce that on Monday the rate would be 10-to-1, or worse.

Something to consider..

Argentina anyone?

Atlas
12-11-2012, 19:12
It'll be interesting to hear what the Ben Bernak has to say tomorrow. :chatter:

QNman
12-11-2012, 19:38
It'll be interesting to hear what the Ben Bernak has to say tomorrow. :chatter:

$20 says it has something to do with more "quantitative easing". Or maybe, since the election is over, he won't? We can only hope.

jeanderson
12-11-2012, 20:06
One of the best ways I've heard recently of expressing the trouble we're in is this:

Every free-spending liberal loves to talk about the wonderful Clinton years, when there were actually budget surpluses. If, for each of the next 30 years, we had a surplus equal to the best of the Clinton years, we could pay back the total debt accumulated in just one year of Barack Obama.

We are way past the point of no return. When the inflationary effects of printing trillions of dollars kicks in and boosts the interest rate the government pays on the debt, the system will implode with lightning speed. Doubt that? 40% of the federal debt is in short-term notes of 12 months or less. Meaning they have to turn over trillions in debt every year!!!

Atlas
12-11-2012, 20:09
One of the best ways I've heard recently of expressing the trouble we're in is this:

Every free-spending liberal loves to talk about the wonderful Clinton years, when there were actually budget surpluses. If, for each of the next 30 years, we had a surplus equal to the best of the Clinton years, we could pay back the total debt accumulated in just one year of Barack Obama.

We are way past the point of no return. When the inflationary effects of printing trillions of dollars kicks in and boosts the interest rate the government pays on the debt, the system will implode with lightning speed. Doubt that? 40% of the federal debt is in short-term notes of 12 months or less. Meaning they have to turn over trillions in debt every year!!!


Sh-h-h-h!
You're scaring the citizenry.

certifiedfunds
12-11-2012, 20:12
Argentina anyone?

Oh no. Much more exciting than that. This is the worlds reserve currency!

QNman
12-11-2012, 20:41
Oh no. Much more exciting than that. This is the worlds reserve currency!

Yes, but for how much longer...

I find it hypocritical that we constantly deride China for manipulating its currency when it has become such the norm here.

TheExplorer
12-11-2012, 21:04
Taxing is the easy way out. The responsible thing to do would be to start going over all expenditures with a fine tooth comb, but that will never happen, so get ready for the tax man.

Atlas
12-11-2012, 21:07
Taxing is the easy way out. The responsible thing to do would be to start going over all expenditures with a fine tooth comb, but that will never happen, so get ready for the tax man.

Inflation is a tax...
Quite literally so.

Inflation is the favorite tax of governments because you cannot evade it and almost no one blames the government for it.

certifiedfunds
12-11-2012, 21:38
Taxing is not a way out. Folks need to get that out of their heads. You cannot tax your way out of this mess.

a. Increasing taxes does not necessarily increase revenue. It isn't a static system.

b. Increasing taxes has a cooling effect on the economy, decreasing the base and increasing reliance on social welfare programs (increasing deficit spending).

c. There is not enough taxation possible to cover this.

Cutting spending and reducing taxes -- Pro Growth. Growth is the only way.

Stopping the spending trajectory AND cutting taxes and regulation will allow the economy to grow, increasing revenues to the treasury.

The only way to change the spending trajectory is to cut Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and DOD.

Be careful though! Medicare cuts don't mean fewer people or fewer things covered. Medicare cuts mean they pay providers less. That's it.

Atlas
12-11-2012, 21:43
Taxing is not a way out. .

Tax is a means of control and social engineering, nothing else.


And you and I know quite well that we aren't "getting out of this mess"..

certifiedfunds
12-11-2012, 21:47
Tax is a means of control and social engineering, nothing else.




Thank you for pointing that out.

Taxation has nothing to do with funding government. There is zero correlation between taxation and spending.

These truly are evil people. Republicans and democrats both.

Atlas
12-11-2012, 21:50
...These truly are evil people. Republicans and democrats both.

And that is the precise, literal truth.

kirgi08
12-12-2012, 01:52
:shakehead: This is because there is no need to worry about paying the debt our politicians have racked up. Our debt won't be paid because it cannot be paid. Besides, the majority of the debt that we are now accruing is debt owed to ourselves, debt that we can default on.

It can be paid,it will cost around 50% of the populace though.'08.

TangoFoxtrot
12-12-2012, 05:37
The numbers are mind numbing.

The Treasury will record a deficit of $292 billion for the first two months of fiscal year 2013, CBO estimates - $57 billion more than the shortfall recorded in the same period last year. Revenues rose by $30 billion (or 10 percent), but outlays increased by $87 billion (or 16 percent)

In other words, spending is just increasing increasing increasing.

How much is $292 billion? It's $608 per month for every person in this country over 18. That's just the INCREASE in the debt. Just add it to the $68,000 every person over 18 already owes.

:wavey:
Yep 8 years of Bush policy really put us in a bind.

pugman
12-12-2012, 06:11
You're correct of course.

If I gave you Mrs Pugman's number would you call her :supergrin:

Yep 8 years of Bush policy really put us in a bind.

Point in fact: there has been deficit spending since 1931 and before - money was added to the debt every year from 1961-1997 except 1969. Face it, for all politicans its the only tool in the box left.

Until people realize "us vs. them" isn't Republicans vs Democrats but The Federal Government vs The tax paying population the American politican continues to win.

When was the last time you saw a former Senator, Member of Congress, President, etc losing an election or leaving office and ending up in the unemployment line; sure they get voted out but they always seem to land on their feet (aka they cash in their political favors).

A complete failure of the dollar won't be good for anyone...at this point its a mathematical certainity when combined with political greed and stupidity.

engineer151515
12-12-2012, 07:05
Yep 8 years of Bush policy really put us in a bind.

Obama managed it in less than 4

series1811
12-12-2012, 08:03
Yep 8 years of Bush policy really put us in a bind.

Voters said, "I don't think the deficit and debt could get any worse" than when Bush was President.

Obama said he would take that challenge and prove them wrong. He did.

aircarver
12-12-2012, 08:24
I didn't know BDS was a permanent affliction .... :shocked:

.

series1811
12-12-2012, 09:18
:shakehead: This is because there is no need to worry about paying the debt our politicians have racked up. Our debt won't be paid because it cannot be paid. Besides, the majority of the debt that we are now accruing is debt owed to ourselves, debt that we can default on.

One thing Ron Paul said I agreed with 100 percent was that there would be a de facto default on this debt by simply printing money to pay whatever part of it is actually paid.

Atlas
12-12-2012, 09:25
One thing Ron Paul said I agreed with 100 percent was that there would be a de facto default on this debt by simply printing money to pay whatever part of it is actually paid.

He knew this because he knows and understands there is no other possible alternative.


And, because it's a tried and true strategy of failed governments.

jeanderson
12-12-2012, 10:19
One thing Ron Paul said I agreed with 100 percent was that there would be a de facto default on this debt by simply printing money to pay whatever part of it is actually paid.





Actually, there is another way:
Make the rules for money market accounts so onerous that everyone moves their money into banks. There is a lot of talk right now about changing the NAV money market rules.
Nationalize the banks. Dodd-Frank rules are still being written which impose regulations so convoluted that small banks will be driven out of business, consolidating into a small number of really big banks. When they become "too big to fail", the government steps in and takes over.
Pass laws which require most, if not all, 401K holdings to be exclusively in U. S. Treasury bonds. There have been several hearings held on this very subject.
After all this, the government will have trillions of dollars to pay back debt and spend on new programs. Of course, we'll all be holding nothing but paper with the words "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government" - which won't be worth a damn.

Atlas
12-12-2012, 10:22
... Of course, we'll all be holding nothing but paper with the words "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government" - which won't be worth a damn.

Which will be the case either way...
at least it will for those left holding paper. :cool:

Skyhook
12-12-2012, 11:18
Yep 8 years of Bush policy really put us in a bind.


:shocked: You must not have received the latest from Debbie W. Does DC; it is Thomas Jefferson's fault, not Bush's.

(I just wish that DU would get its *stuff* together.):upeyes: