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collim1
12-11-2012, 19:51
Rock River Arms A4 20" shooting Hornady Steel Training 55FMJ BTHP @ 100yds from a sandbag.

I was getting 4in groups. What would be considered good? I wasn't exactly happy with that.

bigmoney890
12-11-2012, 20:00
Good is a relative term, but i'd say good would be around 1.5 MOA which would equate to about 1.5" at 100yards. Maybe your gun just doesn't like that round? I've generally heard good things about RRA's accuracy. Maybe buy a could different boxes of all different types of bullet weights and manufacturers and see if you can get your group down some.

Let us know what you can get in down to!

faawrenchbndr
12-11-2012, 20:22
Ammo
Sights
Shooter
Target

All play a part. 3" is rather normal with off the shelf ammo.
Most shooters will get 1-1.5" groups with a typical scope.
I'm not familiar with your skill set, but I would say your grouping
is on par for a new shooter.

Magelk
12-11-2012, 20:46
Good is a relative term, but i'd say good would be around 1.5 MOA which would equate to about 1.5" at 100yards. Maybe your gun just doesn't like that round? I've generally heard good things about RRA's accuracy. Maybe buy a could different boxes of all different types of bullet weights and manufacturers and see if you can get your group down some.

Let us know what you can get in down to!


With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:

Matthew Courtney
12-11-2012, 20:51
We have tested Hornady Steel Match in a S&W Sport and a Colt 6920. They shot over 3 moa with 3 of the 4 groups fired. Those rifles average about 1 moa and 1.5 moa respectively with the 8 loads that they like best, so I think it is fair to say that the Hornady steel match may not be the most accurate ammo. Here is a link to our data- http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=331824886911074&set=pb.257763294317234.-2207520000.1355280171&type=3&permPage=1

bigmoney890
12-11-2012, 21:07
With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:


oops. :embarassed:

collim1
12-11-2012, 21:35
so I think it is fair to say that the Hornady steel match may not be the most accurate ammo. Here is a link to our data- http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=331824886911074&set=pb.257763294317234.-2207520000.1355280171&type=3&permPage=1

I have suspected the ammo is not the most accurate ammo out there, but it is at the moment THE BEST ammo as it is free, supplied by my LE agency. Some of the guys reported better accuracy with the Federal AE223 they used to supply, but they bought a pallet of the Hornady as they got a better deal on it.

Only SWAT guys are allowed to carry rifles on patrol, I was just tagging along with my personal AR to get some trigger time with free ammo this morning.

And I am new to AR's, this is my first AR and I've only had it a few weeks, this was the third time I have shot it.

The good news is it has been 100% reliable for over a thousand rounds. It got 500rds through it today.

MajorD
12-11-2012, 21:38
With premium match grade ammo a good quality iron sighted ad can shoot under minute of angle in the hands of a skilled shooter.
At camp perry national matches it is not unheard of for top shooters with iron sights to shoot groups under 5 inches at 600 yards.
At 100 yards an iron sight rifle ( again given a top quality rifle with premium ammo) sub 1 inch groups are possible. It takes lots of practice and trying different ammo( usually hand loads) to get there. I have personally witnessed a top shooter shoot a sub 2 inch group with irons at 300 yards

MajorD
12-11-2012, 21:41
With your combination of ammo you should be able to approach under 3 inches with irons.

MrMurphy
12-12-2012, 06:43
A typical ironsighted AR, a properly built one to gov't specs is still only expected to be a 2-3 MOA rifle.

While your groups aren't pretty, as you said, you're new to the AR. I could probably do better, but I've been shooting irons of all types for nearly thirty years, and the AR platform or related (M1, M14, M1 carbine, M249, M240) for anywhere from 5-20 years, so I'm quite familiar with them.

Given a good lot of ammo, properly built rifle and a decent shooter, 1-2 MOA is pretty good for most guys with irons.

Using a match built rifle, a special small aperature, handloaded, heavy long bullets single loaded, a guy at Camp Perry shot minute of angle at 1,000 yards with an AR.

That's a 10" group at 1,000 yards. Still inside the chest of an average man.

Scopes don't help you shoot better, they reduce the complexity of what's going on (single focal plane) and help you SEE better. Back in the day, guys in the national/international shooting comps with irons and good eyesight did some insane things with rifles and irons. Quigley Down Under is a movie, but not far off what some guys pulled off.

Gunnut 45/454
12-12-2012, 10:49
Yep better ammo might tighen that up to 2-3" but 4" at 100 is not bad. On a good day I can average around 2.5" but the eyes just are not what they use to be!:supergrin:

fnfalman
12-12-2012, 11:20
With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:

With iron sights AND generic ball ammo? That's damn good!!!

cowboy1964
12-12-2012, 15:08
Seeing better = shooting better, assuming I do my other parts correctly.

Big Bird
12-12-2012, 15:57
Its hard to say as you have no baseline for that rifle and that load. Could be really good could be pretty mediocre.

Nobody is going to hold an iron sighted rifle to 1 MOA across the course. Not even a match rifle with match sights shooting match ammo. The 10 ring on an NRA HP target is about 2 MOA and the X ring is about 1 MOA. In ten years of shooting at hundreds of matches, regional matches, Rocky Mountain Long Range chapmionships, and Camp Perry I've never ever seen a perfect score of 800 points which would mean the person held the rifle to 2 MOA for 80 shots--certainly not any perfect x counts.

Now I've cleaned a stage at 200, 300 and 600 yards before where I shot 200 out of 200 possible points. And I've seen a few people shoot a perfect 20 count X ring in a given stage of a match. But we are talking REALLY rarified air here and not something the average person could do and frankly the top rifle shots in the country could not repeat that performance any time they wanted to.

You don't need to take my word for any of this. The scores of the National Highpower Matches are published for all to see on the NRA competitions website. The dimensions of the NRA HP targets are available for all to examine. Show me a perfect score? Ever? When you do that means that guy held his rifle to 2 MOA. Perfect X count? That means he held it to 1 MOA. Never been done that I've seen in the history of the sport.

collim1
12-12-2012, 16:35
Thanks for the replies. I wasn't expecting MOA groups, just thought I should be able to get tighter than 4". 4" was my best, I certainly shot some bigger than that.

I need to put a scope on it and see what she's capable of.

What's a good match load for a 20" AR with a 1:9 barrel?

Matthew Courtney
12-12-2012, 16:37
Thanks for the replies. I wasn't expecting MOA groups, just thought I should be able to get tighter than 4". 4" was my best, I certainly shot some bigger than that.

I need to put a scope on it and see what she's capable of.

What's a good match load for a 20" AR with a 1:9 barrel?

69gr SMK aka Sierra Match King.

Batesmotel
12-12-2012, 17:09
Yep better ammo might tighen that up to 2-3" but 4" at 100 is not bad. On a good day I can average around 2.5" but the eyes just are not what they use to be!:supergrin:

With my colt my groups have gone from 1-2 inch to 3-4 inch. Gun hasn't changed, my eyes have. :steamed:

smokin762
12-12-2012, 17:29
With my colt my groups have gone from 1-2 inch to 3-4 inch. Gun hasn't changed, my eyes have. :steamed:


I could tell my groups have been changing lately. Last week, I went to get my eye’s checked. Yep, I need new glasses.

The interesting thing is, on the sheet of paper they had me fill out before my eye exam, it had a place for you to fill out what your hobbies are and what you need your glasses tailored around.

This would be nice for target shooting and gun matches if needed.

Magelk
12-12-2012, 17:48
With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:

With iron sights AND generic ball ammo? That's damn good!!!


Really really super damn good!!!!

MarkCO
12-12-2012, 18:18
Hornady Steel Match is NOT generic ball ammo. While my handloads are all under 1 MOA for 5 shots, the Steel match is running about 1.5 MOA in my ARs and nothing worse than 2.2 MOA.

A mil-spec set of sights are going to open that up some until you have a lot of trigger time and learn the techniques. The top Iron sight shooters are using filed down, aftermarket or globe sights with precision inserts to increase the repeatabilty of the sighting system.

There are not a lot of people that can hold better than 1 MOA and few rifles that shoot better than 1 MOA. Add that together with stack-up and most people are going to be shooting 3 to 4 MOA for groups of 5 or more rounds.

You are doing fine for staritng out. :cheers:

Jason D
12-12-2012, 18:22
I would say not.

I would still expect at least an 1" to 1.5" at 100 yards with factory plinking ammo.
I have two 20" Bushmaster rifles that I bought pre2k. One is my DCM match rifle and the other is your standard 20" Hbar XM15. The DCM gun has a 1X8 barrel free-floated and the XM15 your standard 1X9 Bushmaster barrel.

Both guns have turned in groups of 1" with decent factory stuff, but are sub MOA with my match handloads. I would expect yours to do much better with a decent match type load. Something with a 75-77 grain bullet perhaps. My one in nine really liked the Hornady A-Max bullets.

Jason D
12-12-2012, 18:27
Hornady Steel Match is NOT generic ball ammo. While my handloads are all under 1 MOA for 5 shots, the Steel match is running about 1.5 MOA in my ARs and nothing worse than 2.2 MOA.

A mil-spec set of sights are going to open that up some until you have a lot of trigger time and learn the techniques. The top Iron sight shooters are using filed down, aftermarket or globe sights with precision inserts to increase the repeatabilty of the sighting system.

There are not a lot of people that can hold better than 1 MOA and few rifles that shoot better than 1 MOA. Add that together with stack-up and most people are going to be shooting 3 to 4 MOA for groups of 5 or more rounds.

You are doing fine for staritng out. :cheers:

I was lucky enough to specify the sights on my DCM gun, as I had them build it. A smaller aperture helps in Match shooting. The XM15 is now a close copy of the DCM with the addition of NM sights and a hooded aperture.

cowboy1964
12-12-2012, 20:04
Using a match built rifle, a special small aperature, handloaded, heavy long bullets single loaded, a guy at Camp Perry shot minute of angle at 1,000 yards with an AR.

That's a 10" group at 1,000 yards. Still inside the chest of an average man.

The Camp Perry 1000 yard target is six feet square and has a 20 inch bullseye (10 ring).

Cole125
12-12-2012, 20:06
Using iron sights a 4 inch group is not bad at all, in my opinion.

Keoking
12-12-2012, 20:40
Using iron sights a 4 inch group is not bad at all, in my opinion.

I agree. If you need to shoot someone farther out than 100 yards, sneak up on him a little.

Warp
12-12-2012, 20:45
Rock River Arms A4 20" shooting Hornady Steel Training 55FMJ BTHP @ 100yds from a sandbag.

I was getting 4in groups. What would be considered good? I wasn't exactly happy with that.

I would want better than that. I would want 4 MOA from a field position, and I would expect more off of sandbags. 2.5 MOA, let's say, off of bags.

collim1
12-12-2012, 21:25
I would want better than that. I would want 4 MOA from a field position, and I would expect more off of sandbags. 2.5 MOA, let's say, off of bags.

Sounds like I need to practice. .223 is so darn expensive I dont get to shoot near as much as I would if I could afford 250rds a week at ~.46 per round.

Warp
12-12-2012, 21:28
Sounds like I need to practice. .223 is so darn expensive I dont get to shoot near as much as I would if I could afford 250rds a week at ~.46 per round.

Yeah, prices have gone haywire over the last month.

I had 1k rounds of PMC Bronze .223 with UPS on election day...$336/1k delivered. Then 1k of Federal XM193 for $396 shortly thereafter.

Not today...not today.

ithaca_deerslayer
12-12-2012, 23:11
Rock River Arms A4 20" shooting Hornady Steel Training 55FMJ BTHP @ 100yds from a sandbag.

I was getting 4in groups. What would be considered good? I wasn't exactly happy with that.

4" iron at 100 yards seems good to me.

I'm new to irons, too. Doubt I could do better, likely way worse with some fliers.

But I'll give it a try :)

Knighj1
12-17-2012, 13:42
ammo
sights
shooter
target

all play a part. 3" is rather normal with off the shelf ammo.
Most shooters will get 1-1.5" groups with a typical scope.
I'm not familiar with your skill set, but i would say your grouping
is on par for a new shooter.

bawahahahahhaha

Warp
12-17-2012, 19:03
bawahahahahhaha

True, new shooters are unlikely to be capable of 4" groups at 100 yards with iron sites.

Many new shooters won't even be able to create a 'group'

trigger45
12-30-2012, 09:12
1.5 inch is what I do all day on mine.in fact I don't want a scope on mine. If I could do it over I'd have bought a 20 inch a2 or a1 instead of a flat top.

azbuckeye
12-30-2012, 10:17
Give it time.....With more practice your groupings will improve.

trigger45
02-25-2013, 22:00
Just looked at my rifle again in the pix still looks darn good.

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Ruggles
02-25-2013, 23:30
We were taught to shoot the A2 using iron sights (carry handle) at man sized silhouettes from up to 500 yards. Even at 19 years olds that was tough to see, no way these days I could do it. I think the best I managed was 8 of 10 in the black back then. That was general issue rifles and ammo, and really pissed D.I. behind us :)

Today I stick to 100 yards with irons, much easier on the old eyes :)

trigger45
02-26-2013, 21:20
I just want to shoot 300 yards.

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rv4driver
03-02-2013, 09:29
National Match sights will bring groups down from those likely with standard sights, but may not be the best idea for a duty rifle. The Match rear is a very small aperture, and the front sight post is narrower. That makes for more precision, but is harder to acquire quickly.

The one thing that using a scope shows you, is how much your heartbeat moves the crosshairs! You can hardly see that with iron's. So, there's things happening you don't even know about.

Then, of course, there's:
practice
practice
practice...

If you can find the ammo!

CigarandScotch
03-02-2013, 10:10
I would be satisfied with that grouping with standard irons. I recently changed to a narrower post with a ball on top (my eyes are getting old, too) and that allows me to do much better at 100 yards. Instead of 4-5" groups I can concentrate on the post better and achieve 2-3". Still practicing, though.