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muscogee
12-11-2012, 18:55
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/krugman-robots-and-robber-barons.html

The American economy is still, by most measures, deeply depressed. But corporate profits are at a record high. How is that possible? Itís simple: profits have surged as a share of national income, while wages and other labor compensation are down. The pie isnít growing the way it should ó but capital is doing fine by grabbing an ever-larger slice, at laborís expense.

Increasingly, profits have been rising at the expense of workers in general, including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in todayís economy.

We donít talk much about monopoly power these days; antitrust enforcement largely collapsed during the Reagan years and has never really recovered.

It doesn't have to be this way.

countrygun
12-11-2012, 19:00
Oh, the rich have more than Muscogee, wait a second, I'll dial Whine-one-one and get you a Whaaaaaaambulance.


I am not going to scheme to take something away from somebody else to make my life seem better.

Atlas
12-11-2012, 19:02
:popcorn:


Increasingly, profits have been rising at the expense of workers in general, including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in today’s economy.

Well he makes the claim, but I do not see evidence cited..


About the robots: there’s no question that in some high-profile industries, technology is displacing workers of all, or almost all, kinds.

Which industries?
Is that a bad thing?
If so, how?

juggy4711
12-11-2012, 19:30
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/krugman-robots-and-robber-barons.html

It doesn't have to be this way.

When people and the government realize that taxes and regulations that increase costs on corporation only cause corporations to pass those costs on to consumers and employees rather than accept lower/non-increasing profits, and remove those taxes and regulations it won't be.

:popcorn:

Well he makes the claim, but I do not see evidence cited..

Which industries?
Is that a bad thing?
If so, how?

If you do not think computers, robots and other forms of automation have not reduced the need for employees in the last 60 years or so you would be wrong.

Is it a bad thing? Doesn't have to be, however that reduction in need for labor provided by people is exactly the reason Marx accurately predicted that folks would turn against capitalism and then push for change to socialism.

Doesn't matter if the slight is real or how detrimental it is, the unethical practices of capitalism, whether perceived or real are, combined with entitlements, the driving factor in the evolution of economies.

Yet another example of why Marx's teachings should be taken seriously as warnings rather than dismissed as hogwash.

evlbruce
12-11-2012, 19:42
Isn't Krugmann a punchline by now?

What we should be doing, according to Paul, is start bombing Mars and inflating our currency at 5% per year.

ETA: If business is making record profits, then why doesn't Team Krugman open up a firm and get while the gettin's good?

Atlas
12-11-2012, 19:51
...
If you do not think computers, robots and other forms of automation have not reduced the need for employees in the last 60 years or so you would be wrong.

Is it a bad thing? Doesn't have to be, however that reduction in need for labor provided by people is exactly the reason Marx accurately predicted that folks would turn against capitalism and then push for change to socialism.

Doesn't matter if the slight is real or how detrimental it is, the unethical practices of capitalism, whether perceived or real are, combined with entitlements, the driving factor in the evolution of economies.

Yet another example of why Marx's teachings should be taken seriously as warnings rather than dismissed as hogwash.

Automation creates far more jobs than it replaces.
It creates many, many production-line jobs that would not otherwise exist.

I've designed and commissioned automation systems for more than 30 years in more types of industries than I can remember.

In all that time, only once did a system I created or helped to create displace a worker..
It was an extremely hot, nasty, and dangerous job and the company moved that employee to a different task in the same facility.
He was quite happy about it, as he was the person with the lowest level of skill and education in the place.

I have personally created automation systems that on a single project made possible secure production jobs for more than 200 workers at once. That happened a few years ago in western New York state, where those jobs were very badly needed.

Many modern production processes could not be performed by human beings at all, regardless of skill, knowledge, or training.
Almost every one of those processes requires human beings though to perform associated tasks that make the business possible..
Those are human beings who have jobs in an industry that would not and could not exist without automation.


Without automation, a Toyota Corolla would cost about $70k.
How many workers would benefit from that?
Could Toyota compete and stay in business to provide work to tens of thousands of people if they had to charge $70k for a dumpy little Corolla?

.

PaulMason
12-11-2012, 19:59
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/krugman-robots-and-robber-barons.html

Quote:
The American economy is still, by most measures, deeply depressed. But corporate profits are at a record high. How is that possible? It’s simple: profits have surged as a share of national income, while wages and other labor compensation are down. The pie isn’t growing the way it should — but capital is doing fine by grabbing an ever-larger slice, at labor’s expense.
Quote:
Increasingly, profits have been rising at the expense of workers in general, including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in today’s economy.
Quote:
We don’t talk much about monopoly power these days; antitrust enforcement largely collapsed during the Reagan years and has never really recovered.


It doesn't have to be this way.

You need to learn how to read an article critically so you don't become manipulated.


"corporate profits are at a record high"
- from what date to what date?
- house builders?
- if a company is great at exporting, can't its great profits be from that and not at the expense of the worker?

Monopoly
- in a world market?
- if companies in the USA had a monopoly they would be able to raise prices. But they can't.

You should have seen the flaws in the article.

janice6
12-11-2012, 20:15
regarding Company profits and wages.

I broached this subject with my Director of Engineering one day and he said, "They (workers) vote with their feet".

Atlas
12-11-2012, 20:29
regarding Company profits and wages.

I broached this subject with my Director of Engineering one day and he said, "They (workers) vote with their feet".

This is exactly as it should be.

certifiedfunds
12-11-2012, 21:15
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/krugman-robots-and-robber-barons.html







It doesn't have to be this way.

muscogee, in your world as a statistics professor/oilfield worker, who starts companies and why?

Syclone538
12-12-2012, 11:02
On machines that displace workers...

Would it be better to dig a basement with a shovel or a track hoe?

Would it be better to ship stuff by hand or a semi truck?


We could have full employment by destroying all machines. It doesn't take much thought to realize that would be a bad thing to do.


Machines that displace workers free up those workers to do something that machines can not. We get more stuff for less work, making us all richer.






Tom Woods has some good stuff on youtube about the industrial revolution, but I don't have time to look for it right now.

Atlas
12-12-2012, 11:08
...
We could have full employment by destroying all machines. It doesn't take much thought to realize that would be a bad thing to do.
...

If by "full employment" you mean millions of people out digging up roots and collecting berries in a futile attempt to survive then I agree.

QNman
12-12-2012, 11:10
It's too bad us mortals have no opportunity to cash in on some of those record profits. You know, something like:

- buying stock
- starting up a competitor
- improving on an existing business model
- working through the ranks of the corporations to become one of the "robber barons"

Then, it might be fair...

ETA: hey, I have an idea... Start up a company yourself and don't worry about those pesky "profits". Make sure all the workers make more than their contemporaries do, increase their cost of living more than inflation each year, regardless of performance of either the employee or the business. You know, to "be fair". Your investors will clearly see what a great business owner you are and reward you accordingly.

Atlas
12-12-2012, 11:12
It's too bad us mortals have no opportunity to cash in on some of those record profits. You know, something like:

- buying stock
- starting up a competitor
- improving on an existing business model
- working through the ranks of the corporations to become one of the "robber barons"

Then, it might be fair...

:thumbsup:

QNman
12-12-2012, 11:19
... including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in todayís economy..

According to whom?

And apparently not.

Learning and improving your skillset starts on your first day of life and should not stop until the first day of your wake.

countrygun
12-12-2012, 11:46
[

".......including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in todayís economy."



http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/wrong.png

sbhaven
12-12-2012, 14:04
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/krugman-robots-and-robber-barons.html

It doesn't have to be this way.
Krugman, seriously? I think I'll just leave this (http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/paul_krugman_gives_up_1.html) here...

"Who is this Sean from Florida? He takes everything that [the] Professor [says] and shreds it, piece by piece. He shouldn't be allowed to post his comments on this blog since he seems to be winning all the debates. We progressives need to stick together and embellish our talking points without someone from the outside pointing out fallacies in our ideology." - latrina (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/europes-gap/?comments#permid=20)

:rofl:

brickboy240
12-12-2012, 15:54
Paul Krugman is a prisoner of leftist collectivist ideology and pretty much a joke in the economic world.

When people start quoting that guy....I go to sleep.

-brickboy240

barbedwiresmile
12-12-2012, 17:59
Muscogee, read Hazlitt. "Economics in One Lesson"

Bren
12-12-2012, 18:55
Increasingly, profits have been rising at the expense of workers in general, including workers with the skills that were supposed to lead to success in today’s economy.

Wow - so the guy who invested his money and took the risk to start a business, then gave a job to the worker he was not obligated to hire, who voluntarily acccepted the job he wasn't obligated to take or continue working at - that guy has been profiting "at the expense of" the worker?

Seems like the worker should have quit and gone to work for somebody not profiting...except you only keep a job if the employer is profiting.

Seems like the worker should quit whining and start his own business. If he can't do it, he need to STFU and apppreciate the guy who pays him to help him make a profit.

muscogee
12-12-2012, 19:11
Muscogee, read Hazlitt. "Economics in One Lesson"

Economist and all business colleges lost all creditably in 2008 when an MBA from Yale and his advisers ran out economy into the ground. Before that everyone was reading Good to Great. Let's talk about that. I met Collins and heard him speak.

countrygun
12-12-2012, 19:14
By my observation, he started this thread 24 hrs ago and hasn't returned. That spells T R O L L in my book.

I suggest that title (Troll) be the only proper response to any future threads of his.

Syclone538
12-12-2012, 19:55
Look into Austrian economics, and it all will make sense. Frederick Bastiat, Henry Haslet, Tom Woods, Peter Schiff, Ron Paul.

learnaustrianeconomics.com

QNman
12-12-2012, 21:46
Economist and all business colleges lost all creditably in 2008 when an MBA from Yale and his advisers ran out economy into the ground. Before that everyone was reading Good to Great. Let's talk about that. I met Collins and heard him speak.

Bush's fault - again (and still) - I see.

Well then it's a good thing we have a hack leftist columnist and a statistics professor / former oil man to set us all straight.

Care to reply to any of my suggestions on how the "exploited worker" might cash in on all this "robber-baron" stuff?

PS - I thought you voted for Bush? And liked him well enough to vote for McCain?

barbedwiresmile
12-13-2012, 13:32
Economist and all business colleges lost all creditably in 2008 when an MBA from Yale and his advisers ran out economy into the ground. Before that everyone was reading Good to Great. Let's talk about that. I met Collins and heard him speak.

I understand and partially agree. Allow me to explain further: there are no economists at Yale. There are only political hacks. A reading of actual economists such as Hazlitt (Mises, Hayek, Rothbard) will add to anyone's understanding of the issues that confront us.

muscogee
12-13-2012, 15:16
Bush's fault - again (and still) - I see.

Well then it's a good thing we have a hack leftist columnist and a statistics professor / former oil man to set us all straight.

Care to reply to any of my suggestions on how the "exploited worker" might cash in on all this "robber-baron" stuff?

PS - I thought you voted for Bush? And liked him well enough to vote for McCain?

Can't read? No wonder you don't get it.

QNman
12-13-2012, 18:16
Can't read? No wonder you don't get it.

Oh, I read just fine. But you're certainly right about one thing - I don't get it.

I guess that's a "no" on responding to my queries?