Score this IDPA Stage 1 target. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ADK_40GLKr
12-13-2012, 11:37
After String 4 of Stage 1, the Classifier Course of Fire reads:

*** Hits below the head area should be pasted before shooting
String Five ***


This wasn't done to this target, but assuming the 2 higher -1's were the head misses where 3 head shots were required, how would you score this target.

Very basic stuff, I know, but the scoring was challenged, and the ruling made a difference in Classification.

(The rest of the story to follow, after I see a consensus.)

RJ 71
12-13-2012, 11:51
Sounds like it should have been a reshoot of the classifier.

Jim Watson
12-13-2012, 11:56
RJ is right, procedure was not followed and Stage 1 should be reshot.

By your assumption, it is scored -12, but should be applied only if someone were looking at the target and saw the two shots pulled down from head to body actually land.

ADK_40GLKr
12-13-2012, 12:28
RJ is right, procedure was not followed and Stage 1 should be reshot.

By your assumption, it is scored -12, but should be applied only if someone were looking at the target and saw the two shots pulled down from head to body actually land.

OK, then let's say it looked like this after string 4: Which pair of holes do you paste if you didn't see the hits - the minus "1" or the "0".

ADK_40GLKr
12-13-2012, 12:58
Right or wrong, it's been our custom at practice, to score the Stage 1 targets after the stage is finished, and not paste up after string 4

My friend doing the scoring counted the target (in post 1) as -14, and I asked him how he got that, counting - as Jim Watson did - minus 12. He said "No, you paste the "0" shots, not the "-1's". I accepted his interpretation at the time.

Working on improving with my G38, I ended up with a score of 210.13. Scoring that target as a -12 would have shaved 1 point off my score leaving me just barely within the "Marksman" limits.

Yeah, it was "unofficial" and just a game, anyway, but we're trying to simulate a match so we can handle better when we actually compete. I was THAT close. I suppose disagreeing with the RO would get me a "procedural" anyway.

ADK_40GLKr
12-13-2012, 13:08
RJ is right, procedure was not followed and Stage 1 should be reshot.

By your assumption, it is scored -12, but should be applied only if someone were looking at the target and saw the two shots pulled down from head to body actually land.

So, if you don't see where the misses landed, the correct procedure is to paste the better shot? And my friend was right. (I just couldn't find any interpretation of this in the rules.)

Well, either way, I'm NOT satisfied with my performance, and will continue working on improving.

waktasz
12-13-2012, 14:16
Down 12. Definitely not down 14.

RJ 71
12-13-2012, 16:50
For the sake of practice, I'd score the target -12. Your friend saying you lose 2 zeros reminds me of the bullseye league I used to shoot in. If there was more than 10 holes in the target you lost one of your best hits so if you had 10x and a 9 you got scored as 99 not 100 for the target. The idpa rules don't address that situation other than to reshoot the stage iirc. Don't have the rule book in front of me at the moment. Keep practicing and enjoy.

Jim Watson
12-13-2012, 17:24
When shot for actual classification, the scorekeeper should be watching the target to see where errant head shots go. The SO should be watching the shooter for safety and proper procedure.

For casual shooting or using the Classifier as part of a match, the principle of giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt applies. If he misses the head but hits the paper, the least doubt is that the hits closest to the head were intended for the head.

The only time I would take away a zero would be if excess shots were fired. If there were 11 hits on that target, I would assume the extra was fired as a makeup and was a zero.

waktasz
12-14-2012, 06:43
Right. The only time you take off the best hit is when there are extra shots. It doesn't matter if the extra shot was a 0 or not, you take of the best hit anyway, that's the rule.

HK Dan
12-14-2012, 13:29
guys, the two head shots landing on the body ARE "extra shots" Paste the -0 and -14 is how I read it.

Regarding re-shoots, no there is no reason for a re-shoot unless the problem was caused by an equipment malfunctionon the stage. According to the rules, he has to re-shoot the whole 30 round stage, and not just a single string, too.

waktasz
12-14-2012, 14:01
Nope, that's not right. They are not extra shots unless the shooter fired 12 rounds.

RJ 71
12-14-2012, 17:26
A reshoot can be granted due to equipment malfunction or mental malfunction. Not pasting the target before shooting the next string. Would probably qualify as a mental malfunction especially since pasting is necessary to correctly score the next string. The shooter would be required to reshoot the 30 round course of fire. Not just that string.

PEC-Memphis
12-14-2012, 17:34
Regarding re-shoots, no there is no reason for a re-shoot unless the problem was caused by an equipment malfunction on the stage.

As long as the classifier is not a competitive match, re-shoots of a stage are permissible if the SO doesn't follow the CoF procedure (such as not pasting the errant headshots), if there is a equipment (stage equipment or firearm) malfunction or mental shooter errors.

The purpose is to provide an "accurate classification".

According to the rules, he has to re-shoot the whole 30 round stage, and not just a single string, too.

Yes.

ADK_40GLKr
12-15-2012, 21:43
Looks like this would apply to Classifier, and my score is -14.

B. Limited Vickers Count.
(For use when shooting standard exercises or when targets will be engaged multiple times before scoring)

Same as Vickers Count described above EXCEPT the number of shots you can fire on any string is limited to the number specified in the course description. Any extra shots will incur a procedural penalty of three (3) seconds per string and one of your highest scoring hits will be deducted from your point score for each extra shot fired. Limited Vickers scoring is used to allow multiple strings to be fired without having to score the targets after eachstring of fire, thus making the stage run quicker. Limited Vickers should ONLY be used to score Standard Exercises courses and is not suitable for Scenario stages.

ADK_40GLKr
12-15-2012, 22:27
This discussion on IDPA forum seems to give us some direction here.

We should identify which body hit was a head miss, and we should tape them before string 5. (Even WITH Limited Vickers Scoring)

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/reply/53216/Classifier-Scoring-Question#reply-53216

jr05
12-16-2012, 07:54
You guys should have just taped, or more easily, just kept track of points down before shooting the head shots...

Not being an actual classifier, I would give it a -12 and be done with it. Doesn't change your time that much, 1 second in a non match setting, regardless of if you are are right on the line between two classes.

You should be shooting to improve your time, don't even look at the class breakdown.

HK Dan
12-20-2012, 12:48
If you are supposed to have 7 body and 3 heead hits, how is 9 body hits not getting treated like extra shots? Suppose he was -3 on 1 or 2 of his body shots, do you paste up the -3s? No, you call them extras and paste up 2 of his -0 shots. They ARE extra hits, even though the round count is right,the hits are not.

waktasz
12-20-2012, 13:18
I don't know what else to tell you except that you're interpreting it wrong, at least as how it applies to the IDPA classifier.

PEC-Memphis
12-20-2012, 17:23
If you are supposed to have 7 body and 3 heead hits, how is 9 body hits not getting treated like extra shots? Suppose he was -3 on 1 or 2 of his body shots, do you paste up the -3s? No, you call them extras and paste up 2 of his -0 shots. They ARE extra hits, even though the round count is right,the hits are not.

They are not extras, they are missed heads, the missed head were supposed to be pasted by the SO. If the SO didn't follow the proper procedure the benefit goes to the shooter.

If three (3) of shots on the string that called for the body shots landed -3, and the three (3) head shots landed -0 (body), you don't get to substitute the missed head shots (in the -0 body zone) for the three (3) -3 body shots.

ADK_40GLKr
12-22-2012, 21:48
We're watching,
now, and noting where the errant*headshots*go. It was a learning experience for all of us at the club.