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beforeobamabans
12-14-2012, 10:54
Fox news reporting 26 dead, 18 of them children.

Newtown, CT elementary school. Shooter is confirmed dead.

Gunnut 45/454
12-14-2012, 11:05
Shooter possibly from NJ? Long way to go to shoot up a school!! Smacks of terrorist act since NJ is a haven for Mussy's- unconfirmed of course we'll see as we get more info.
Just sick any way you cut it ! Prayers to those families affected!:crying:

eb07
12-14-2012, 11:08
report is father of one of the kindergartners.... but he is only 20.... so he had the kid at 15?

jeanderson
12-14-2012, 11:13
And to all who will be responding to the inevitable rants from the lefties for gun control, let them know about the knife attack in central China today that wounded 22 kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?npt=NP1

There are crazies everywhere.

beforeobamabans
12-14-2012, 11:14
Andrea Mitchell and MSNBC are already in full gun control mode.

Sveke
12-14-2012, 11:18
About 40 mins from my house.

Had a Glock and a SIG.

For everyone's knowledge, town is a mix of rural and middle class suburbs.

Sent from my Gimp Grouper

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 11:25
I hate sounding like a heartless a-hole but:

That's impossible! There's laws that prevent people from bringing guns on to school property! That man should have been repelled from the school by the magical force of the "law" if he had a gun on him! </sarcasm>

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 11:37
It's another sad day for human kind.

A lot of the early reports are going to be wrong, which is the nature of things like this. Deepest sympathies for those effected.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 11:39
I hate sounding like a heartless a-hole but:

That's impossible! There's laws that prevent people from bringing guns on to school property! That man should have been repelled from the school by the magical force of the "law" if he had a gun on him! </sarcasm>

When the law and threat of repercussions fail, it's time to take an honest look at real physical security, including the ability to respond to force with greater force.

beforeobamabans
12-14-2012, 11:43
When the law and threat of repercussions fail, it's time to take an honest look at real physical security, including the ability to respond to force with greater force.

Very well said, Doc.

Is it time for for those of us who know and understand guns to insist that our teachers and school administrators arm themselves?

JFrame
12-14-2012, 11:55
Horrible -- absolutely horrible...

I am utterly opposed to gun control -- but I can see how incidents like this can generate such knee-jerk reactions (especially in those who are so inclined to begin with).

The most efficacious policy would seem to be to arm and train the teachers/staff (the ones who want to do it voluntarily).


.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 12:05
Very well said, Doc.

Is it time for for those of us who know and understand guns to insist that our teachers and school administrators arm themselves?

I'd prefer dedicated armed security. I'd vote for an increase in property tax for that.

Latest news says he had a .223 rifle too. It'll be a while before the details come out.

kirgi08
12-14-2012, 12:08
No words will be enough.'08.

GlockWheeler
12-14-2012, 12:12
I'd prefer dedicated armed security. I'd vote for an increase in property tax for that.

Latest news says he had a .223 rifle too. It'll be a while before the details come out.

Agreed. I would definitely support armed security as a majority of teachers I have met in our local schools tend to be rabidly anti-gun in general. Sad to say, but things are not the way they used to be, even when I went to school as a kid. It is what it is, and I fear this crap is only going to get worse as time goes by.

Paul7
12-14-2012, 12:14
One more reason to homeschool.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 12:18
Horrible -- absolutely horrible...

I am utterly opposed to gun control -- but I can see how incidents like this can generate such knee-jerk reactions (especially in those who are so inclined to begin with).

The most efficacious policy would seem to be to arm and train the teachers/staff (the ones who want to do it voluntarily).


.

It would be completely understandable if any of the parents of children in that school, especially those killed, if they were not very pro RKBA or owners of scary black rifles themselves, became aggressive supporters of an AWB.

I know my scrary black rifle will never be used by me to hurt innocents. Unfortunately, a few pieces of excrement ruin things for many others.

This is a tragedy, and some never let a tragedy go to waste. I will be shocked if an AWB isn't being pushed hard by the end of the day, and legislation proposed within a month or sooner.

jeanderson
12-14-2012, 12:20
First, this is a horrible tradgedy - 18 children killed right before Christmas. Innocence has been lost forever. This was an elementary school. The families (and maybe the country) will never be the same.

Longer term, I smell real trouble here for us... Fox News reporting Glock and Sig Sauer 9mm handguns recovered and that the gunman had a .223 rifle. The vitriol from the anti-gun crowd will be unrelenting.

JFrame
12-14-2012, 12:34
I know my scrary black rifle will never be used by me to hurt innocents. Unfortunately, a few pieces of excrement ruin things for many others.

This is a tragedy, and some never let a tragedy go to waste. I will be shocked if an AWB isn't being pushed hard by the end of the day, and legislation proposed within a month or sooner.

First, this is a horrible tradgedy - 18 children killed right before Christmas. Innocence has been lost forever. This was an elementary school. The families (and maybe the country) will never be the same.

Longer term, I smell real trouble here for us... Fox News reporting Glock and Sig Sauer 9mm handguns recovered and that the gunman had a .223 rifle. The vitriol from the anti-gun crowd will be unrelenting.


Agree and agree...


.

Rally Vincent
12-14-2012, 12:44
Terrible. This will be the extra fuel that's gets the ball rolling home on the next AWB. Then who knows after that.

Gunnut 45/454
12-14-2012, 12:46
Sounding more and more like a Murder /suicide. Just some sick MFer that hated life and decided to go out in a blaze of fire. Just unfortunately just more evidence of the moral decline of our country! Sad very sad!:crying:

Fear Night
12-14-2012, 12:51
Since we can't talk about politics anymore in the GNG thread, I'm assuming we can do so here ...

Let's discuss how the situation that occurred today could be prevented in the future.

We already know how the anti's are going to react. They will want a nationwide AWB at the very least (even though CT already has a statewide AWB). The government's hand will be forced to do something to attempt to prevent this from happening again. Maybe they will try to tighten security at all public schools? My bet is that they go after guns.

For the pro-gun side, what is our defense? Do we allow elementary school teachers to carry handguns inside classrooms? Could a CCW or on-site police officer be able to respond quickly enough to help out, assuming the shooting is occurring away from their location? I'm not buying it.

I really have a bad feeling about this one. Mainly because we have no reasonable pro-gun solution to attempt to fix this problem.

Chronos
12-14-2012, 12:56
One more reason to homeschool.

No kidding.

Reflect for a moment that any action now taken by the school -- except empowering individuals, which the media will never support -- will tend to make the school a worse, more prison-like environment. Armed security guards and metal detectors will probably end up being the choice.

The school had already recently beefed up security, so there is basically no choice (other than teacher empowerment) except to turn it into a prison now. Here's a letter describing the security protocol at the school:

Our district will be implementing a security system in all elementary schools as part of our ongoing efforts to ensure student safety. As usual, exterior doors will be locked during the day. Every visitor will be required to ring the doorbell at the front entrance and the office staff will use a visual monitoring system to allow entry. Visitors will still be required to report directly to the office and sign in. If our office staff does not recognize you, you will be required to show identification with a picture id. Please understand that with nearly 700 students and over 1000 parents representing 500 SHS families, most parents will be asked to show identification.

Doors will be locked at approximately 9:30 a.m. Any student arriving after that time must be walked into the building and signed in at the office. Before that time our regular drop-off procedures will be in place. I encourage all parents to have their children come to school and return home on the bus and to remain in school for the entire school day. The beginning and ending of our school day are also important instructional times and therefore we want all our students to reap the benefits of full participation in our program.

We need your help and cooperation for our system to work effectively. Our office staff is handling multiple tasks. Though they will work diligently to help you into the building as quickly as possible, there may be a short delay until someone can view you on the handset and allow you to come in electronically. There are times during the day when office personnel are on the telephone, addressing student concerns, or in the copy room; there are other times when only one person is in the front office. Please help our staff by identifying yourself and provide your childís name.

Keep in mind we will be following our district guidelines which may need revision once we test the system.

Please know your involvement continues to be critical to our schoolís effectiveness and your childís success. We continue to encourage and value your presence in our classrooms and are counting on your cooperation with the implementation of this safety initiative.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Hochsprung

jeanderson
12-14-2012, 13:01
I really have a bad feeling about this one because we have no reasonable pro-gun solution to fix this problem.
My fear exactly! 26 dead, 18 children. Doesn't get much worse than that.

Anything said in defense of gun rights will be shouted down, no matter how wrong or how stupid. But nowadays, stupid seems to win the argument.

DOC44
12-14-2012, 13:07
My fear exactly! 26 dead, 18 children. Doesn't get much worse than that.

Anything said in defense of gun rights will be shouted down, no matter how wrong or how stupid. But nowadays, stupid seems to win the argument.

and elections.:upeyes:

Doc44

beforeobamabans
12-14-2012, 13:09
Obama speaks in five minutes. Will he be restrained or take the gloves off?

Gunman has been identified. He was on a mission to kill his mother who was teaching the kindergarten class.

Gunnut 45/454
12-14-2012, 13:10
jeanderson
Yep we'll see it begin with Obamamoa's getting in front of the camera today! There is no way to stop this type of crime. Totally a criminal act done by the lone crazy! We can't have a cop on every corner, in every school. What's the answer? There is none! Just another senseless killing spree!:steamed:

Chuck TX
12-14-2012, 13:13
Just sickening.

When the law and threat of repercussions fail, it's time to take an honest look at real physical security, including the ability to respond to force with greater force.

Agreed, Doc. When it comes to airlines and schools we could learn a little from the Israelis. The PC issue with that is it greatly raises the bar for many positions that are currently occupied by folks who probably couldn't meet the loosest of standards. I fear that effective pragmatic solutions will not be advocated for over more of the same knee-jerk delusional laws.

cowboy1964
12-14-2012, 13:17
Smacks of terrorist act since NJ is a haven for Mussy's- unconfirmed of course!

How about not making any comment like that then?

Geezus.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 13:19
Any mention of the police response time?

beforeobamabans
12-14-2012, 13:21
Obama: "We have been through this too many times...We're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this regardless of the politics..."

Chronos
12-14-2012, 13:21
I really have a bad feeling about this one. Mainly because we have no reasonable pro-gun solution to attempt to fix this problem.

Well, it's not like the anti's have a reasonable solution, either. Reductions in violent crime follows gun liberty, not gun control.

Chronos
12-14-2012, 13:22
Obama: "We have been through this too many times...We're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this regardless of politics..."

Agree -- abolish the underperforming and dangerous public school system.

snerd
12-14-2012, 13:25
Obama: "We have been through this too many times...We're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this regardless of politics..."
Oh yeah. Mr. End Run and rule by Executive Order Obama will definitely not hold back on this. The only question is will there be anyone of courage up there to stand up to him?! Never let a crisis go to waste.

Condolences to the victims and their families. Would that there was even one armed citizen nearby to have prevented or minimized this tragedy.

ETA: and when he said regardless of politics, he meant regardless of the Constitution.

Gunnut 45/454
12-14-2012, 13:32
cowboy1964
Well I did say it was conjecture on my part! And as the info has come in to clearify the situation I may have been hasty in my assumption! Now that we've learned it is just some sick MFer that hated his life and decided he was going to kill as many as he could before taking his own life.

As predicted the "Never let a crisis go to waste" POTUS said we will persue meaningful measures to correct this problem!

Dogpatch06
12-14-2012, 13:32
And to all who will be responding to the inevitable rants from the lefties for gun control, let them know about the knife attack in central China today that wounded 22 kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?npt=NP1

There are crazies everywhere.

None of the 22 kids who got stabbed in china died.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 13:35
None of the 22 kids who got stabbed in china died.

By all means, please feel free to be the first to give up your guns now.

Gunnut 45/454
12-14-2012, 13:43
Dogpatch06
So are you running to turn your firearms into police! Cause it sounds like you want to be the first inline to do so! This scumbag that did these criminal acts woulds have used any means to do what he did the fact that he used a firearm to commit these crimes means nothing! Changes nothing!:faint:

JFrame
12-14-2012, 13:51
None of the 22 kids who got stabbed in china died.

If it's a death count you want, here's one in Japan -- a single kitchen knife-wielding maniac killed eight children and seriously wounded 13 more, plus two teachers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre


.

Gundude
12-14-2012, 13:55
No kidding.

Reflect for a moment that any action now taken by the school -- except empowering individuals, which the media will never support -- will tend to make the school a worse, more prison-like environment. Armed security guards and metal detectors will probably end up being the choice.

The school had already recently beefed up security, so there is basically no choice (other than teacher empowerment) except to turn it into a prison now. Here's a letter describing the security protocol at the school:

Our district will be implementing a security system in all elementary schools as part of our ongoing efforts to ensure student safety. As usual, exterior doors will be locked during the day. Every visitor will be required to ring the doorbell at the front entrance and the office staff will use a visual monitoring system to allow entry. Visitors will still be required to report directly to the office and sign in. If our office staff does not recognize you, you will be required to show identification with a picture id. Please understand that with nearly 700 students and over 1000 parents representing 500 SHS families, most parents will be asked to show identification.Is that for real? Sounds like it's already a prison.

dbcooper
12-14-2012, 13:59
My bet;

AWB, capacity restriction (my guess is 5) and purchase restrictions will be added to any bill to avert the fiscal cliff.

The public is going to clamour for some sort of law and the left will oblige. The rash of shootings of late will undo every gain we have made over the last 20yrs.

Dogpatch06
12-14-2012, 14:02
If it's a death count you want, here's one in Japan -- a single kitchen knife-wielding maniac killed eight children and seriously wounded 13 more, plus two teachers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre


.

You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

Kentak
12-14-2012, 14:03
Shooter possibly from NJ? Long way to go to shoot up a school!! Smacks of terrorist act since NJ is a haven for Mussy's- unconfirmed of course we'll see as we get more info.

That's your very first theory, huh? You need help. Seriously.

JFrame
12-14-2012, 14:06
You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

What are you arguing -- that eight deaths do not constitute a mass murder? Or that there is some tolerance level of deaths at which an object should be deemed "okay," and becomes unacceptable at some other arbitrary number?


.

The Maggy
12-14-2012, 14:08
Confirmed: Fox News and MSNBC may have just ruined a young man's life.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FBQnMb.jpg&h=AAQFKPApW&s=1
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2aU1B.jpg&h=TAQF5FKXvAQEQk4KbCUl1AYfRJwq1T0q4IiflRV900-k6TQ&s=1

In a race to out-scoop other infotainment sources, it seems some people have forgotten how to do their job.

They even pulled the kid's facebook pic while he was posting that he was on a bus going home from work.

Chesafreak
12-14-2012, 14:11
If you search twitter for #NRA you'll see some very angry people blaming the NRA for this shooting. The death of these children will be the tipping point to banning anything that looks like an assault rifle or at least limit magazine capacity. I can see a day coming where we have to use revolvers and lever action rifles while criminals have black market Glocks, AK's, and AR's.

Armchair Commando
12-14-2012, 14:11
You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

Cars/Cigarettes/Alcohol are more deadly than both, What's your point?

dbcooper
12-14-2012, 14:12
If you search twitter for #NRA you'll see some very angry people blaming the NRA for this shooting. The death of these children will be the tipping point to banning anything that looks like an assault rifle or at least limit magazine capacity. I can see a day coming where we have to use revolvers and lever action rifles while criminals have black market Glocks, AK's, and AR's.

It looks that way to me, see above

muscogee
12-14-2012, 14:13
And to all who will be responding to the inevitable rants from the lefties for gun control, let them know about the knife attack in central China today that wounded 22 kids.

It's been going on all afternoon. We might as well get ready for a fight on this.

Skyhook
12-14-2012, 14:14
You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

You, sir/madam/confused, are just & simply a big old liberal/progressive tool.

Here we sit, choked-up, teary-eyed and collapsing beneath the grief of an horrific act committed by a madman and YOU get into full anti-gun blather.

I'd advise you to turn to crap, but I'd be late.:shakehead:

mj9mm
12-14-2012, 14:17
I would like to suggest that their "No Guns" signs weren't big enough, what else could it be. he wanted to kill someone and he obviously was not going to be stopped. i would suggest our culture is more driven by our so called "entertainment" media's, violence permiates our theaters, televisions and computer/gaming systems. many children are allowed to numb their senses on deplorable and graphic violence for years. just my opinion...

Dogpatch06
12-14-2012, 14:19
Cars/Cigarettes/Alcohol are more deadly than both, What's your point?

Thats some pretty solid logic there.

So if the guy walked into the classroom with a carton of Camels, how many of the kids do you think he could have killed??

snerd
12-14-2012, 14:22
Tammy Bruce

"Victims families must love watching their dead loved ones being used as political props hours after being murdered"

http://bit.ly/SqiVDy (http://t.co/LLqtrUbk)

Fear Night
12-14-2012, 14:23
If you search twitter for #NRA you'll see some very angry people blaming the NRA for this shooting. The death of these children will be the tipping point to banning anything that looks like an assault rifle or at least limit magazine capacity. I can see a day coming where we have to use revolvers and lever action rifles while criminals have black market Glocks, AK's, and AR's.
That is crazy. Only about 1 out of every 15 or 20 is defending gun ownership. The rest are blaming guns, the NRA, and even all gun owners. They say WE are responsible for this tragedy. Most are also including Obama's feed begging him for an all out ban.

To sum it up:
"Your 2A rights should be voided to save the children."

muscogee
12-14-2012, 14:25
Is that for real? Sounds like it's already a prison.

It's more like a boot camp and is becoming like 1984. Northside ISD in San Antonio is going to issue ID with radio frequency transmitters to the students so they can track the student's movements throughout the day. Your tax dollars at work, and it won't do anything to prevent tragedies like we're discussing here.

Other than schools becoming more like prisons, I don't see any way to prevent this. Of course, that will require more money and will do nothing to enhance education.

snerd
12-14-2012, 14:26
Dear Jesus,

It's a good thing you were born at night. This world sure seems dark. I have a good eye for silver linings. But they seem dimmer lately.

These killings, Lord. These children, Lord. Innocence violated. Raw evil demonstrated.

The whole world seems on edge. Trigger-happy. Ticked off. We hear threats of chemical weapons and nuclear bombs. Are we one button-push away from annihilation?

Your world seems a bit darker this Christmas (http://www.christianpost.com/topics/christmas/). But you were born in the dark, right? You came at night. The shepherds were night shift workers. The Wise Men followed a star. Your first cries were heard in the shadows. To see your face, Mary and Joseph needed a candle flame. It was dark. Dark with Herod's jealousy. Dark with Roman oppression. Dark with poverty (http://www.christianpost.com/topics/poverty/). Dark with violence.

Herod went on a rampage, killing babies. Joseph took you and your mom into Egypt. You were an immigrant before you were a Nazarene.

Oh, Lord Jesus, you entered the dark world of your day. Won't you enter ours? We are weary of bloodshed. We, like the wise men, are looking for a star. We, like the shepherds, are kneeling at a manger.

This Christmas, we ask you, heal us, help us, be born anew in us.

Hopefully,
Your Children



Max Lucado (http://www.christianpost.com/news/max-lucados-prayer-in-response-to-conn-school-shooting-86681/cpt)

(http://www.christianpost.com/news/max-lucados-prayer-in-response-to-conn-school-shooting-86681/cpt)

oldman11
12-14-2012, 14:28
Check this out. Another poster on another forum found this. I just copied it to this forum. I'd like to hear how restricting guns would have prevented this mass killing at the school.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Oh gosh, here is something else from another poster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

I'm sure a gun ban would have stopped that also, right?

You libtards make me sick to my stomach. If you want to live in a communist country, why don't you just move to one?

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 14:28
Any mention of the police response time?

Within minutes is all I have seen.


The old saying is true, when your life depends on what is going to happen in the next few seconds.....

Strong physical security (layered) with the ability to provide an overwhelming response to attack. I would strongly recommended dedicated and trained security force. Sounds like a good jobs program for returning Veterans.

frank4570
12-14-2012, 14:28
You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

Taking guns away from non-criminals won't actually do anything. Street gangs have fully automatic weapons in spite of the fact that they are banned without authorization from the govt.

jeanderson
12-14-2012, 14:30
The death of these children will be the tipping point to banning anything that looks like an assault rifle or at least limit magazine capacity.
Two 9mm hanguns, Glock & Sig Sauer, also recovered at the scene. These nuts will be after all semi-automatic weapons of any kind with any magazine capacity.

In other news, check out your favorite ammo source... Just noticed stocks on 1000 round cases of 9mm dropping quickly at LuckyGunner.com.

countrygun
12-14-2012, 14:34
You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

The 9/11 attackers racked up a large number without guns.

A gun wasn't the primary weapon of Timothy McVeigh

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 14:35
Obama speaks in five minutes. Will he be restrained or take the gloves off?

Gunman has been identified. He was on a mission to kill his mother who was teaching the kindergarten class.

I will post a reply I had made elsewhere but sadly was not able to maintain... maybe here?

You have nothing to indicate the killer's mother abused and molested him. Nothing, no "data", no facts, nothing. I am not ignoring anything "at [my] peril." You made a sickening, disrespectful, and at this point, totally unfounded accusation against a victim of a mass murder. You have demonstrated, repeatedly, that you lack even shreds of decency, humility, and empathy, so please, don't lecture me about imperiling fellow citizens. Rant off.

Actually I do have many things to indicate the potential of abuse. The fact that you don't want to consider this very real possibility is rather frightening.

http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1997/05/bg1115-the-child-abuse-crisis
http://www.cwsor.org/impact.htm
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/child-abuse/impact-on-arrest-victimization.htm

The evidence is there. Then I can add in my own personal experiences but that is as much as I wish to say in a public forum. I will continue with my other evidence and that is the mother was specifically targeted as were her students. This is indicative of vengeful behavior.

Now is my prose accurate? Is is true? I don't know yet, but as more details come out and as we learn more about what lead up to this senseless killing then my hypothesis can be tested and debunked or validated.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 14:37
Within minutes is all I have seen.


The old saying is true, when your life depends on what is going to happen in the next few seconds.....

Strong physical security (layered) with the ability to provide an overwhelming response to attack. I would strongly recommended dedicated and trained security force. Sounds like a good jobs program for returning Veterans.

Then there's your defense against the gun-grabbers. In the time it took for the police to respond, 26 lives were snuffed out. Could an armed individual have stopped him at the principal's office, where this all started? He/she definitely would have had a better chance.

Also, the fact that there are already laws that should have stopped this from happening. New laws will be just as (in)effective, but cost taxpayer dollars.

bigleaf
12-14-2012, 14:42
I hate sounding like a heartless a-hole but:

But there you go, anyway.

frank4570
12-14-2012, 14:43
I'm mostly concerned this will have far reaching consequences when it is time for a new supreme court justice. We only won by one vote with the Heller case.

I may have to donate to the NRA and GOA.

pipedreams
12-14-2012, 14:44
Check this out. Another poster on another forum found this. I just copied it to this forum. I'd like to hear how restricting guns would have prevented this mass killing at the school.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Oh gosh, here is something else from another poster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

I'm sure a gun ban would have stopped that also, right?

You libtards make me sick to my stomach. If you want to live in a communist country, why don't you just move to one?

Here is another one that just happened.

"Beijing (CNN) -- Twenty-two primary school children were wounded in a knife attack Friday in central China, authorities said"
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?npt=NP1

The human race is a disgrace, it is sad but you can't ban everything.

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 14:45
I'm mostly concerned this will have far reaching consequences when it is time for a new supreme court justice. We only won by one vote with the Heller case.

I may have to donate to the NRA and GOA.

It does, the implications are staggering. This may be what throws the mettle to the kettle and we see if there is a ban which could catalyze insurrection. Or we may just bleat the way the British did into slavery to the state.

Baba Louie
12-14-2012, 14:48
Never let a good crisis go to waste.

Query? How does one get pro-active in regards to the tragedy that occurred today?

Cite the Israeli method of schoolmarms being former IDF and armed? Not gonna fly in todays America.

Eliminate or make it illegal having sons who kill family members (see Cain v. Abel for a very very early version)? Nope, impractical and/or religious overtones

Fight against any upcoming soon to be proposed legislature banning or prohibiting arms of any or a specific type to stop the killing of innocent babies... and be labeled a pro baby-killer? Wait a minute. Pro-Baby killer... innocent babies... Nope, better abort that idea. For the children.

Trained K9s at each school door to sniff out firearms or ammunition as part of the School Police? Sniff, wag tail, pass thru friend v. Sniff ??? Bark, Bite down hard?

or just B.O.H.I.C.A.?

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 15:01
No kidding.

Reflect for a moment that any action now taken by the school -- except empowering individuals, which the media will never support -- will tend to make the school a worse, more prison-like environment. Armed security guards and metal detectors will probably end up being the choice.

The school had already recently beefed up security, so there is basically no choice (other than teacher empowerment) except to turn it into a prison now. Here's a letter describing the security protocol at the school:

Post 9/11 in Germany, my kids rode the bus with a Soldier with a loaded m16 on the bus, and one or two loaded gun trucks with the bus. Our housing complex was surrounded with razor wire and roving armed soldiers. For the first couple of weeks, we had a 240B machine gun emplacement 6 feet off of my ground floor balcony. We used to go out on cold nights to take soup and hot chocolate to the guards. My kids turned out ok. But they understand that you fight force with force, not rules and "no gun" signs.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 15:01
Fight against any upcoming soon to be proposed legislature banning or prohibiting arms of any or a specific type to stop the killing of innocent babies... and be labeled a pro baby-killer? Wait a minute. Pro-Baby killer... innocent babies... Nope, better abort that idea. For the children.

I see what you did there... :tongueout:

Chronos
12-14-2012, 15:07
Post 9/11 in Germany, my kids rode the bus with a Soldier with a loaded m16 on the bus, and one or two loaded gun trucks with the bus. Our housing complex was surrounded with razor wire and roving armed soldiers. For the first couple of weeks, we had a 240B machine gun emplacement 6 feet off of my ground floor balcony. We used to go out on cold nights to take soup and hot chocolate to the guards. My kids turned out ok. But they understand that you fight force with force, not rules and "no gun" signs.

Force is exactly what is being proposed by the MSM right now -- only it just so happens to be force against the innocent.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 15:12
Force is exactly what is being proposed by the MSM right now -- only it just so happens to be force against the innocent.

That is a strategic and tactical error.

Gun free zones and a disarmed populace is part of the problem, not the solution. The only question I have now is will we even be offered a grandfather clause or if the order will be to turn them in.

jeanderson
12-14-2012, 15:16
...My kids turned out ok. But they understand that you fight force with force, not rules and "no gun" signs.
:thumbsup: Well said!

fuzzy03cls
12-14-2012, 15:20
You can scream laws & guns & nra bs all day. The fact is this was 20 little kids. Barley past age 5. This IS going to change gun laws. There's no way around it. It's teh trigger.... I was one of the biggest naysayers of any new laws being addressed...before this happen. The public will be demanding the laws in numbers...just watch.

No matter what facts come out in how the guy got the guns, how unstable he was, how the signs were missed, will all be ignored because 20 little kids 5 years old were slaughtered.

GAFinch
12-14-2012, 15:20
Two 9mm hanguns, Glock & Sig Sauer, also recovered at the scene. These nuts will be after all semi-automatic weapons of any kind with any magazine capacity.

In other news, check out your favorite ammo source... Just noticed stocks on 1000 round cases of 9mm dropping quickly at LuckyGunner.com.

A later report cited an M4-style AR and a Glock 10mm being used, both registered to his mom.

countrygun
12-14-2012, 15:24
Post 9/11 in Germany, my kids rode the bus with a Soldier with a loaded m16 on the bus, and one or two loaded gun trucks with the bus. Our housing complex was surrounded with razor wire and roving armed soldiers. For the first couple of weeks, we had a 240B machine gun emplacement 6 feet off of my ground floor balcony. We used to go out on cold nights to take soup and hot chocolate to the guards. My kids turned out ok. But they understand that you fight force with force, not rules and "no gun" signs.


This illustrates the problem with our society that creates soft targets . The proper response to violence against the innocent is for the innocent to stop it with their own violence. We used to understand that in this Country but, sadly, today, the society wants rules to keep others from harming them. They cannot even grasp that rules do not stop those of evil intent, (Hint: not obeying the rules is a sign of the bad guys). It is no longer "how do we stop them in their tracks" but "what words can we put on paper that will stop them"

sheriff733
12-14-2012, 15:38
Prayers sent to all affected by this tragedy.

Glad I'm a life member of the NRA. They're going to need the support this time.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 15:38
Another mass casualty event in a gun free zone.

rvanpelt
12-14-2012, 15:47
What a horrible, hideous, attack on the most innocent people of our world, our kids! What is happening to our society?



My thoughts and prayers of sympathy go out to the parents, grand parents, school staff and friends of all those affected at this very difficult time.
Sincerely,
Rod van Pelt
Retired school teacher

Fear Night
12-14-2012, 15:54
Anybody ready for a quick history lesson?

The Dunblane School Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre) played a significant role in shaping the gun laws the United Kingdom has today. This shooting caused a massive public outcry on the private ownership of guns. This incident single-handedly destroyed handgun rights in the UK.

fuzzy03cls
12-14-2012, 15:59
yep......O in"tears" on TV, all the go home & hug your kids bs,....All being played into it.

countrygun
12-14-2012, 16:01
It is being reported that the shooters brother has said he suffered fron Aspergers syndrome. To put it basically (I have a stepdaughter who is autistic) it is part of the autism scale and it causes a lack of empathy and ability to relate to the feelings of others, sort of a sociopathy, and with the noted rise in the diagnosis of autism in children, I can't help but wonder.

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 16:06
Anybody ready for a quick history lesson?

The Dunblane School Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre) played a significant role in shaping the gun laws the United Kingdom has today. This shooting caused a massive public outcry on the private ownership of guns. This incident single-handedly destroyed handgun rights in the UK.

I pointed this out in another thread... the same type of event is what disarmed the Australians as well. Now the only fundamental difference between both those nations and ours is our Constitution and it's recognition of our innate rights.

I realize that may not be enough to stop a massive push by the anti's (which is already in full swing and gaining steam) and as I have stated before if this does start to favor the anti's I would suspect a very violent and rapid push back from a segment of the nation.

The ramifications of this tragedy are massive... to not discuss them and how to curtail the damage done to all sides is ludicrous.

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 16:07
It is being reported that the shooters brother has said he suffered fron Aspergers syndrome. To put it basically (I have a stepdaughter who is autistic) it is part of the autism scale and it causes a lack of empathy and ability to relate to the feelings of others, sort of a sociopathy, and with the noted rise in the diagnosis of autism in children, I can't help but wonder.

In light of this my original hypothesis would seem to not be holding up. Interesting.

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 16:11
Don't care if you like this guy or not... but he's on the money...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2h1QNTQDnoU

IvanVic
12-14-2012, 16:29
Shooter possibly from NJ? Long way to go to shoot up a school!! Smacks of terrorist act since NJ is a haven for Mussy's- unconfirmed of course we'll see as we get more info.
Just sick any way you cut it ! Prayers to those families affected!:crying:

You really are a troll. You're as bad as any left wing jackass that will immediately try to politicize this tragedy.


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English
12-14-2012, 16:29
It does not actually matter whether the shooter was abused by his mother or was a simple nut case or even a religious extremist nut case. These events have happened before and will happen again. The Dunblane murders were done with a Browning 9mm and a 357 Magnum revolver. He killed most in one class with 9mms and then made sure of killing himself with the 357. The simple fact was that he could have killed far more with Molotov cocktails, say three to five classrooms from which none would have survived since the noise would have been less alarming.

Since these events happen in countries with very restricted access to firearms it is clear that anti firearms laws do not stop this problem. It is even more ttrue that the problem will not be stopped in the USA by restrictive laws because the number and durability of existing unregistered firearms is so great.

What is clear, thanks to the experience of the USA, is that the only way to prevent almost all such future events is to allow anyone to carry a firearm anywhere at all. So far, all or almost all such events in the USA have taken place in firearm free zones which then form resitance free killing zones for the perpetrators of these crimes. Not all of these criminals can be considered to have identical motivations but it is obvious that they want to kill some large number rather than just one or two. This particular man did not just want to kill his mother but lots of children as well. Some want to commit suicide before there is a risk of being caught alive. Some wish to be killed by others. Some wish to appear in court. The consistent thing is that they all wish to remain alive long enough to kill lots of individuals and places where numbers of armed people can be expected is not a good way to achieve that.

Such a policy would not be a guarantee that these things would not happen again but the psychological economincs are simple. The greater the risk of failure, the greater the disinclination to act. By making it easy for these people to attain their goal and get away with it, whether than means commiting suicide at a moment of their own choice, being killed by others when they have killed enough or simply surrendering to police forces they know will not kill them when they have killed enough, gun free zones reduce their risk and so encourage them to act.

As guns exist they cannot be made to cease to exist. The only way to limit their wrongful use is by the probability of overwhelming counterforce of rightful use of guns ranged against them.

The guilty people in this situation are the anti gun people. Without them, very few such events would happen.

English

SIG-SOG
12-14-2012, 16:33
Isn't mental illness the problem here. Seems until people focus on the real problem things like this will continue by some means.

English
12-14-2012, 16:39
One of the most important lessons of the Dunblane massacre is that the decent and gentlemanly shooting community refused to put up a defence. In contrast an anti gun committee of a handful of people with secret funding with some nice flower like name swung into high power action. They dominated the media, which was only too happy to be dominated, and the result we all know. They, and the media, were totally dishonest in their campaign. You in the USA should not expect anything less. The antis control most of the mainstream media, but at least now the internet makes that less powerfull than it was 15 years ago. What you must not do is hold back from debate as a sign of respect because they will have none and your decency will never be recognized.

English

snerd
12-14-2012, 16:42
Isn't mental illness the problem here. Seems until people focus on the real problem things like this will continue by some means.
I'm not following you. Are you implying someone in their right mind could do this?

QNman
12-14-2012, 16:46
You had to go back 10 years for that.

Do you think his death-count would have been higher or lower with a gun instead of a kitchen knife?

Is it really something you folks want to argue...that guns are no more deadly than knives?? I would love to hear your reasoning.

WTF are you even doing on a gun board? If you're not a gun owner, or at least understand the second amendment, do yourself a favor and buzz off.

QNman
12-14-2012, 16:48
It's been going on all afternoon. We might as well get ready for a fight on this.

Yup.

We don't agree on much, musky, but I will gladly stand by your side to fight what is inevitably coming.

Chuck TX
12-14-2012, 16:58
That is a strategic and tactical error.

Gun free zones and a disarmed populace is part of the problem, not the solution. The only question I have now is will we even be offered a grandfather clause or if the order will be to turn them in.

Hope you're wrong.

Not that logic matters to the people who want everyone to be defenseless, but CT has an AWB. IIRC it never did sunset. A "new" AWB won't change anything and clearly didn't prevent an attack by a sicko.

QNman
12-14-2012, 17:00
You can scream laws & guns & nra bs all day. The fact is this was 20 little kids. Barley past age 5. This IS going to change gun laws. There's no way around it. It's teh trigger.... I was one of the biggest naysayers of any new laws being addressed...before this happen. The public will be demanding the laws in numbers...just watch.

No matter what facts come out in how the guy got the guns, how unstable he was, how the signs were missed, will all be ignored because 20 little kids 5 years old were slaughtered.

Humpf.

I, for one, will not lie down that easily. Sorry.

I have three boys and 11 nieces and nephews. I truly empathize with the parents, and I pray each day for my children to come home safe, whole and healthy.

But I understand that living in a free society sometimes has a dark side.

I also understand those guns didn't drive themselves to that school and shoot those children - a nutjob did that. A nutjob who took his own life rather than face the consequences of his actions. Laws don't stop nutjobs - they just change their trajectory.

This nutjob could have just as well made a McVeigh-style bomb, could have brought a hammer or a sword or a really sharp knife, or could simply have started whacking kids with a bat. Would the carnage have been reduced? Who knows... maybe, maybe not.

Either way, we cannot legislate enough to guarantee our kids safety. All we can do is guarantee that our rights as individuals of the greatest country in the history of Earth will end - first with the second, then the others. And the only ones who will truly be safe will be the crooks and politicians.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 17:10
It does not actually matter whether the shooter was abused by his mother or was a simple nut case or even a religious extremist nut case. These events have happened before and will happen again. The Dunblane murders were done with a Browning 9mm and a 357 Magnum revolver. He killed most in one class with 9mms and then made sure of killing himself with the 357. The simple fact was that he could have killed far more with Molotov cocktails, say three to five classrooms from which none would have survived since the noise would have been less alarming.

Since these events happen in countries with very restricted access to firearms it is clear that anti firearms laws do not stop this problem. It is even more ttrue that the problem will not be stopped in the USA by restrictive laws because the number and durability of existing unregistered firearms is so great.

What is clear, thanks to the experience of the USA, is that the only way to prevent almost all such future events is to allow anyone to carry a firearm anywhere at all. So far, all or almost all such events in the USA have taken place in firearm free zones which then form resitance free killing zones for the perpetrators of these crimes. Not all of these criminals can be considered to have identical motivations but it is obvious that they want to kill some large number rather than just one or two. This particular man did not just want to kill his mother but lots of children as well. Some want to commit suicide before there is a risk of being caught alive. Some wish to be killed by others. Some wish to appear in court. The consistent thing is that they all wish to remain alive long enough to kill lots of individuals and places where numbers of armed people can be expected is not a good way to achieve that.

Such a policy would not be a guarantee that these things would not happen again but the psychological economincs are simple. The greater the risk of failure, the greater the disinclination to act. By making it easy for these people to attain their goal and get away with it, whether than means commiting suicide at a moment of their own choice, being killed by others when they have killed enough or simply surrendering to police forces they know will not kill them when they have killed enough, gun free zones reduce their risk and so encourage them to act.

As guns exist they cannot be made to cease to exist. The only way to limit their wrongful use is by the probability of overwhelming counterforce of rightful use of guns ranged against them.

The guilty people in this situation are the anti gun people. Without them, very few such events would happen.

English

Good post, English.

These things have happened and will continue to happen and the only way to minimize the carnage is for someone to neutralize the killer.

TxGun
12-14-2012, 17:16
I have to agree with the several others who have voiced this same general sentiment: This awful tragedy will bring a push for more gun control like we have seldom, if ever, seen. This will trigger an all-out assault on the 2nd Amendment and it will be unrelenting. Since those who cherish the Constitution, and traditional American values seem to be approaching minority status in this country, this terrible event is likely to portend a very difficult fight. To many, the Constitution is a "living document", subject to society's whims and traditional values are simply the antiquated ideas of those who refuse to change and embrace the brave new (socialist) world.

Heartfelt condolences and deepest sympathies to all those affected by the actions of this madman today.

snerd
12-14-2012, 17:17
....... These things have happened and will continue to happen and the only way to minimize the carnage is for someone to neutralize the killer.
I just don't know why it's so hard for some folks to understand. When will we get serious about protecting our kids?


http://i46.tinypic.com/33duond.jpg

SIG-SOG
12-14-2012, 17:19
I'm not following you. Are you implying someone in their right mind could do this?

What do you mean?

dbcooper
12-14-2012, 17:20
Thats some pretty solid logic there.

So if the guy walked into the classroom with a carton of Camels, how many of the kids do you think he could have killed??

All of them, just over a longer span of time

BobbyS
12-14-2012, 17:23
The big question is: whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

PhotoFeller
12-14-2012, 17:28
You, sir/madam/confused, are just & simply a big old liberal/progressive tool.

Here we sit, choked-up, teary-eyed and collapsing beneath the grief of an horrific act committed by a madman and YOU get into full anti-gun blather.

I'd advise you to turn to crap, but I'd be late.:shakehead:

Skyhook-

Please reread your post. You criticize someone for an anti-gun post while disregarding the grief of this horrific event, yet you say nothing about the many posts that focus coldly, callously on pro-gun comments.

I suppose we should expect such behavior on a gun forum, but it disappoints me, as a father, and as grandfather of five granddaughters in elementary school, that we immediately start worrying about our guns before all other considerations.

Call me a liberal, ***hole or any other name that seems to fit. I'm only thinking about the families of the victims today. Shame on all of you whose concerns about our precious guns transcend our loss as a country of the many victims, a fear about going to school millions of kids may now feel, and all the other consequences of this incident.

snerd
12-14-2012, 17:28
What do you mean?
You said mental illness wasn't the problem.

magman687
12-14-2012, 17:31
I hate sounding like a heartless a-hole but:

That's impossible! There's laws that prevent people from bringing guns on to school property! That man should have been repelled from the school by the magical force of the "law" if he had a gun on him! </sarcasm>

Love it...

Prayers for the families of the victims

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Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 17:34
Skyhook-

Please reread your post. You criticize someone for disregarding the grief of this horrific event, yet you say nothing about all the foregoing posts that focus coldly, callously on pro-gun comments.

I suppose we should expect such behavior on a gun forum, but it disappoints me, as a father, and as grandfather of five granddaughters in elementary school, that we immediately start worrying about our guns before all other considerations.

Call me a liberal, ******* or any other name that seems to fit. I'm thinking about the families of the victims today. Shame on all of you whose concerns about our precious guns transcend our loss as a country of the many victims, a fear about going to school millions of kids may now feel, and all the other consequences of the incident.

The shame will come when those who are focused on mourning wake up to a new America where their rights were signed away... and they did nothing, while those who regret the loss understand that the time for mourning is after the future rights are secured.

I dunno, maybe I am a calloused vet, but my experience has been if my team mate is dead and the fight is raging on and increasing in intensity... I don't have time to worry about them. The living need my focus. But that's me.

And that is one reason why we are focused on our rights. Our children are not dead and in order to protect them we must defend the rights we have or we lose even bigger.

SIG-SOG
12-14-2012, 17:38
You said mental illness wasn't the problem.

I thought I said it is, and it is. And what really pisses me off is how this nutjob got access to these guns. If owned by a family member it was their fault for not securing them. I AM against gun control but I also would secure my guns away from kids, disturbed or mentally I'll people, etc. Sorry, but we need to practice our own control so the gov won't need to. I heard the guns were owned by the mom. Really? Maybe she or her other son is responsible. How did the nutjob learn to shoot? Really, a guy known to have aspargers disease. I'm pissed about this and the anti gun ****heads. Maybe my opinion will change as I'm just pissed.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 17:38
. Shame on all of you whose concerns about our precious guns transcend our loss as a country of the many victims, a fear about going to school millions of kids may now feel, and all the other consequences of this incident.

I'm sure that you are busily contacting all the politicians and media heads that were calling for gun control as soon as the shooting stopped.

The Maggy
12-14-2012, 17:38
Within minutes is all I have seen.


The old saying is true, when your life depends on what is going to happen in the next few seconds.....

Strong physical security (layered) with the ability to provide an overwhelming response to attack. I would strongly recommended dedicated and trained security force. Sounds like a good jobs program for returning Veterans.

In Oklahoma, at least, there is always, at a minimum, one uniformed officer on every school campus whenever class is in session. It is always the same officer or officers. They work with the school to design a procedure for lock downs. This officer directs any emergency response at his school because he is the most familiar with the layout and lock-down procedures. Short of having machine gun nests at the ends of the hallways, that is about as good as it gets.

With all of the security that this school supposedly had in place, I am shocked that they didn't have an officer stationed there.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 17:41
In Oklahoma, at least, there is always, at a minimum, one uniformed officer on every school campus whenever class is in session. It is always the same officer or officers. They work with the school to design a procedure for lock downs. This officer directs any emergency response at his school because he is the most familiar with the layout and lock-down procedures. Short of having machine gun nests at the ends of the hallways, that is about as good as it gets.

With all of the security that this school supposedly had in place, I am shocked that they didn't have an officer stationed there.

We have them in Kansas too.

Magelk
12-14-2012, 17:44
http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr183/dyno-byte/IsraeliTeachersArmed.jpg

barbedwiresmile
12-14-2012, 17:46
Ironic that when someone has a gun and is hurting people, the cops are called to bring...guns. Why not cut out the middleman?

snerd
12-14-2012, 17:49
I thought I said it is, and it is. And what really pisses me off is how this nutjob got access to these guns. If owned by a family member it was their fault for not securing them. I AM against gun control but I also would secure my guns away from kids, disturbed or mentally I'll people, etc. Sorry, but we need to practice our own control so the gov won't need to. I heard the guns were owned by the mom. Really? Maybe she or her other son is responsible. How did the nutjob learn to shoot? Really, a guy known to have aspargers disease. I'm pissed about this and the anti gun ****heads. Maybe my opinion will change as I'm just pissed.
Ah, my mistake. I misread it.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 17:49
This illustrates the problem with our society that creates soft targets . The proper response to violence against the innocent is for the innocent to stop it with their own violence. We used to understand that in this Country but, sadly, today, the society wants rules to keep others from harming them. They cannot even grasp that rules do not stop those of evil intent, (Hint: not obeying the rules is a sign of the bad guys). It is no longer "how do we stop them in their tracks" but "what words can we put on paper that will stop them"

The guns are out there. Pandora's box has been opened.

Since they are out there, the response should be an aggressive response that counters the threat, not one that creates a disarmed populace.

With the dweeb in the White House that we have , and the milquetoast republicans in the house, that will probably not be the response we see.

The Maggy
12-14-2012, 17:50
Call me a liberal, ***hole or any other name that seems to fit. I'm only thinking about the families of the victims today. Shame on all of you whose concerns about our precious guns transcend our loss as a country of the many victims, a fear about going to school millions of kids may now feel, and all the other consequences of this incident.

It all comes down to what are you willing to sacrifice to feel safe?

I, personally, will not be willing to sacrifice my safety so some people up in CT can feel safer. Yes, this was a tragic event, there is no question about it; but you want us to quiet the talk over gun control while Obama was on TV mere hours ago talking about gun control. The left is already moving, the right would be stupid to sit quietly for a few days before they start pushing back.

whoops dude
12-14-2012, 17:56
Remember that columbine happened in 1999 while the AWB was still in effect. For this fact, antis will reason that an AWB isn't enough. Be prepared for an all out attack on firearm ownership period. My heart is torn and broken for the families affected by this senseless tragedy. May God send the Holy Spirit to comfort them in this holiday season and in the future.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 17:57
Hope you're wrong.

Not that logic matters to the people who want everyone to be defenseless, but CT has an AWB. IIRC it never did sunset. A "new" AWB won't change anything and clearly didn't prevent an attack by a sicko.

An AWB ban with a turn in will be floated. No way to see how that will turn out at this moment.

I am heartbroken by today's events, and empathizing with the parents. Evil has visited this country today, and I am afraid the response will not be strategically or tactically coherent.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 18:00
I just don't know why it's so hard for some folks to understand. When will we get serious about protecting our kids?


http://i46.tinypic.com/33duond.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTka8TeRvEuo06GBrgJLkLRlk9gswzwJvwD3bjd1obrKdD9_1qj1GLmgmEYbg

JFrame
12-14-2012, 18:01
Skyhook-

Please reread your post. You criticize someone for an anti-gun post while disregarding the grief of this horrific event, yet you say nothing about the many posts that focus coldly, callously on pro-gun comments.

...



Photofeller -- I believe that is the point of the Political Forum -- to discuss the political ramifications of events, from the most mundane to the most tragic. Many people on this thread are acknowledging the horror of the event, but given the nature of this forum, are also viewing it from a 2A concern (as are myriad leftists all over the MSM, from the opposing aspect).

I abstained from making any political commentary on a comparable thread on the GNG forum. But here, it is fair game -- and from what I can tell, that is the intent of this forum.


.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
12-14-2012, 18:02
The shame will come when those who are focused on mourning wake up to a new America where their rights were signed away... and they did nothing, while those who regret the loss understand that the time for mourning is after the future rights are secured.

I dunno, maybe I am a calloused vet, but my experience has been if my team mate is dead and the fight is raging on and increasing in intensity... I don't have time to worry about them. The living need my focus. But that's me.

And that is one reason why we are focused on our rights. Our children are not dead and in order to protect them we must defend the rights we have or we lose even bigger.

Excellent post. I see some GNGers with doubts and also second guessing themselves. The political opposition was already mobilizing this afternoon and you can bet that their meeting rooms will be full on Monday morning. It's no time for 2A supporters to be on their heels, only to be pushed over.

It's obvious that today's events are tragic and evil. We all agree to that. Saying that "this is no time for politics" is naÔve, emotional, and defeatist. It's all politics. The emotional appeals by the 2A opposition will be a difficult barrage to withstand under the best of conditions. Look how many people agreed to curtailment of their liberties because they fell for emotional and illogical appeals immediately after September 11. That was a short decade ago, and people still have the shortest of memories.

Don't let it happen again. It is actually during these emotional barrages that your logical support of 2A must be the most vigilant.

Wake_jumper
12-14-2012, 18:07
Blame the gun... too easy. Of course, what else could it be?

What should be done is to look at what passes as entertainment.

How many times did the shooter "kill" while playing video games?
How many times did the shooter see killings on TV and at the theater?

The line between fantasy and reality is blurred in many who are not mentally stable or are simple minded.

No one will dare to question the entertainment industry. It is too easy to blame the gun.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 18:08
The big question is: whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

It's always been my rule to return fire. It's rude not to. It's like being waved at and not waving back. It's just rude.



If I had precognition, I wish I would have been outside that school today. This would have never happened.

QNman
12-14-2012, 18:11
How many of the Bill of Rights will we relinquish in the name of "safety"?

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 18:16
How many of the Bill of Rights will we relinquish in the name of "safety"?

None for I.

Cavalry Doc
12-14-2012, 18:22
How many of the Bill of Rights will we relinquish in the name of "safety"?


In the next 2 months, just one more.


I am heartbroken over the events of today. But I see the pathway of the anti-gun crowd.

I give them a +60/40 chance of success.



Many people, knowing I am a "gun nut" have asked me about assault weapons to purchase in the past few weeks.

My advice, buy a rifle and shotgun with pretty wood stocks. You don't want your gun to even appear to be an assault weapon. A Remington 700 with a nice scope and a pretty black walnut stock won't likely be part of he first ban/turn-in.


Good luck to all. I'm going to have to consider all of this in my canoe out on the lake tomorrow, when I am doing my weekly gun cleaning.

fuzzy03cls
12-14-2012, 18:29
Looks more & more like this nut used the guns his mother owned to do this. Well no gun laws would have prevented this guy from stealing them.

Glock20 10mm
12-14-2012, 18:38
In the next 2 months, just one more.


I am heartbroken over the events of today. But I see the pathway of the anti-gun crowd.

I give them a +60/40 chance of success.



Many people, knowing I am a "gun nut" have asked me about assault weapons to purchase in the past few weeks.

My advice, buy a rifle and shotgun with pretty wood stocks. You don't want your gun to even appear to be an assault weapon. A Remington 700 with a nice scope and a pretty black walnut stock won't likely be part of he first ban/turn-in.


Good luck to all. I'm going to have to consider all of this in my canoe out on the lake tomorrow, when I am doing my weekly gun cleaning.

If they go for it it will be an all out ban with restricted registration. You can bet much like jolly ol' England. All pistols will be banned, if we are lucky break open shot guns will be allowed, but must be kept either with the police or a local armory. To be checked out.

No, no more rights are to be lost not without a fight. I don't care the odds, but I am damn sick and tired of restraint and compliance when all it's done is emboldened our enemies within. It's time to stand and stand fast or fall into complete oppression.

PhotoFeller
12-14-2012, 18:39
Photofeller -- I believe that is the point of the Political Forum -- to discuss the political ramifications of events, from the most mundane to the most tragic. Many people on this thread are acknowledging the horror of the event, but given the nature of this forum, are also viewing it from a 2A concern (as are myriad leftists all over the MSM, from the opposing aspect).

I abstained from making any political commentary on a comparable thread on the GNG forum. But here, it is fair game -- and from what I can tell, that is the intent of this forum.


.

You are so right. I was expressing my opinions in the wrong place. My apologies. Thanks for reminding me.

Wraith
12-14-2012, 18:49
No, no more rights are to be lost not without a fight. I don't care the odds, but I am damn sick and tired of restraint and compliance when all it's done is emboldened our enemies within. It's time to stand and stand fast or fall into complete oppression.

I sincerely hope that this is the action all of us take as a stand against the stupidity that will be waged against us.

IceAxe
12-14-2012, 19:00
We've backed up too many times when our freedom and liberty have been intruded upon. Most of us also know what history has shown happens when an already oppressive regime disarms the populace.

Don't try it.

sheriff733
12-14-2012, 19:19
So, I just thought of something.

Obama gets on TV and holds a press conference about this tragedy earlier today and tears up during it and says his heart is broken, (as is mine, yours, and the rest of the country's.) He says we have endured too many of these and too much loss of life (which we have) and we need to get together and come up with something of a solution, regardless of politics (the constitution is what he meant.)

Anybody but me find it terribly ironic that he is terribly distraught by this, as any normal person is, but he's pro abortion?

May God be with the victims and their families.

QNman
12-14-2012, 19:30
None for I.

Nor I, sir. At least not without a fight (politically - not physically).

rgregoryb
12-14-2012, 19:31
now is the time to grieve, the issues involved will certainly be discussed soon. I have grandchildren this age, I can not imagine the families' pain. But we will have to defend our rights because of this madman.

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 19:32
And to all who will be responding to the inevitable rants from the lefties for gun control, let them know about the knife attack in central China today that wounded 22 kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?npt=NP1

There are crazies everywhere.

I don't think we should use that China attach as a foil against anti-gun calls. It is an easy straw man. They will conclude (rightfully) that in the China attack, 22 were wounded; NOT killed.

QNman
12-14-2012, 19:33
In the next 2 months, just one more.


I am heartbroken over the events of today. But I see the pathway of the anti-gun crowd.

I give them a +60/40 chance of success.



You are an optimist in my book. I've never been a conspiracy nut, nor a doomsday, chicken-little type. But I'm genuinely concerned.

Many people, knowing I am a "gun nut" have asked me about assault weapons to purchase in the past few weeks.

My advice, buy a rifle and shotgun with pretty wood stocks. You don't want your gun to even appear to be an assault weapon. A Remington 700 with a nice scope and a pretty black walnut stock won't likely be part of he first ban/turn-in.


Good luck to all. I'm going to have to consider all of this in my canoe out on the lake tomorrow, when I am doing my weekly gun cleaning.

I hear you, friend. Here's to hoping your canoe doesn't capsize. :cheers:

QNman
12-14-2012, 19:35
I don't think we should use that China attach as a foil against anti-gun calls. It is an easy straw man. They will conclude (rightfully) that in the China attack, 22 were wounded; NOT killed.

The argument is not the number of casualties - that argument is a loser for our side.

The REAL argument - the one we win because it is based in fact - is that once our enumerated rights within the BOR begin to fall, it is a short and sure trip to all being lost.

QNman
12-14-2012, 19:37
We've backed up too many times when our freedom and liberty have been intruded upon. Most of us also know what history has shown happens when an already oppressive regime disarms the populace.

Don't try it.

I don't know about ya'll, but... I have my tipping point too. A point at which I would be willing to fight by any means necessary. But while that point may be far off, it will not be one I would willingly post on the interwebs.

ModGlock17
12-14-2012, 19:42
Through Columbine and all events that followed in schools to date, American Gov't still have not learned that schools are the least defended institution in this country.

They don't even have a security guard. Worst than that, those of us who CCW are prevented to do so on school property. Even if we responded to an event and become the white knights, fat prosecutors like Angela Corey will hang us afterward.

IvanVic
12-14-2012, 19:43
Ironic that when someone has a gun and is hurting people, the cops are called to bring...guns. Why not cut out the middleman?

Totally agree when you're referring to adults, but kindergartners can't carry handguns. You can't really ever stop something like this, although armed security at the school might have saved some lives.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 19:46
So, I just thought of something.

Obama gets on TV and holds a press conference about this tragedy earlier today and tears up during it and says his heart is broken, (as is mine, yours, and the rest of the country's.) He says we have endured too many of these and too much loss of life (which we have) and we need to get together and come up with something of a solution, regardless of politics (the constitution is what he meant.)

Anybody but me find it terribly ironic that he is terribly distraught by this, as any normal person is, but he's pro abortion?

May God be with the victims and their families.

Unless you are a total monster devoid of feelings, how can you not be moved by the deaths of so many children in this manner. Gee, are you saying that Obama should not be moved? Is it any wonder the right lost the election? Human beings have feelings, Unbelievable! There should be some controls not no controls at all on who can posses a firearm.

Dude, 20 kids are dead, shot to death. My God!

Before you assume I am an anti gun person, I am not. I am a gun owner, reloader, and CCW holder.

QNman
12-14-2012, 19:52
So, I just thought of something.

Obama gets on TV and holds a press conference about this tragedy earlier today and tears up during it and says his heart is broken, (as is mine, yours, and the rest of the country's.) He says we have endured too many of these and too much loss of life (which we have) and we need to get together and come up with something of a solution, regardless of politics (the constitution is what he meant.)

Anybody but me find it terribly ironic that he is terribly distraught by this, as any normal person is, but he's pro abortion?

May God be with the victims and their families.

One political hot-button at a time, there skippy...

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 20:04
I don't know about ya'll, but... I have my tipping point too. A point at which I would be willing to fight by any means necessary. But while that point may be far off, it will not be one I would willingly post on the interwebs.

Help me understand, how many kids deaths are too many? How many kids should die before you and others like you would ask that something be done? I am hearing threats of (you know what you are saying) rebellion, over what? Reasonable laws to keep guns out of the hands of wack-o-doodles like this child killer? Pick your battles, but I cannot believe you are choosing to protect this killer.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:06
Unless you are a total monster devoid of feelings, how can you not be moved by the deaths of so many children in this manner. Gee, are you saying that Obama should not be moved? Is it any wonder the right lost the election? Human beings have feelings, Unbelievable! There should be some controls not no controls at all on who can posses a firearm.

Dude, 20 kids are dead, shot to death. My God!

Before you assume I am an anti gun person, I am not. I am a gun owner, reloader, and CCW holder.

Sheriff has a valid point.

Total number of abortions in the United States 1967-2011: 54,900,000

http://www.movementforabetteramerica.org/abortionindex.html

ModGlock17
12-14-2012, 20:06
Unless you are a total monster devoid of feelings, how can you not be moved by the deaths of so many children in this manner. Gee, are you saying that Obama should not be moved? Is it any wonder the right lost the election? Human beings have feelings, Unbelievable! There should be some controls not no controls at all on who can posses a firearm.

Dude, 20 kids are dead, shot to death. My God!

Before you assume I am an anti gun person, I am not. I am a gun owner, reloader, and CCW holder.

I think what he is saying is that he doesn't buy the acting job.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:08
Help me understand, how many kids deaths are too many? How many kids should die before you and others like you would ask that something be done? I am hearing threats of (you know what you are saying) rebellion, over what? Reasonable laws to keep guns out of the hands of wack-o-doodles like this child killer? Pick your battles, but I cannot believe you are choosing to protect this killer.

Am I understanding you correctly?

What do you propose should be done?

ModGlock17
12-14-2012, 20:08
Here's a solution:

Dump the Dept of Education and use that money for security guards for schools.

akroguy
12-14-2012, 20:08
If it's a death count you want, here's one in Japan -- a single kitchen knife-wielding maniac killed eight children and seriously wounded 13 more, plus two teachers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre


.

Tim Mcvey killed 168 people, including 19 children, and injured 450 others with fertilizer, diesel fuel and a Ryder truck.

Ban trucks, fertilizer and fuel? Sick people are everywhere. One cannot overcome evil by running from it. You must NEUTRALIZE it. IMMEDIATELY.

fuzzy03cls
12-14-2012, 20:15
Yeah right....You all talk big... lets see what you do when it does matter in real life. Lets see you march on Wash, or Cap hill, protest, lets see you guys fight like you say. And lets see this small small small segment change anything that the big wheels powers that be have planned to happened.
how can you not be moved by the deaths of so many children in this manner.
I'm not. Honestly.... It's a tragedy, & it's not right I agree. I'm not heartless or cold...I'm just not shocked this happened. It was only a matter of time. I'm surprised it's shocked the gun community. This world is rough, Not just the US, but all over.

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 20:19
What do you propose should be done?


Stop protecting crazy people getting their hands on guns.

Understand that common since laws are not a threat.

Understand that people are going to be moved by this level of violence, especiallyso when this level of violence is against kids.

Stop appearing behaving like uncaring machines and start appearingbehaving like caring human beings.

mj9mm
12-14-2012, 20:21
sounds to me like the brainiacs who came up with Fast and Furious will be writing away our Constitutional Rights. they couldn't control their well thought out plan, now they won't have a plan

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:22
Help me understand, how many kids deaths are too many? How many kids should die before you and others like you would ask that something be done? I am hearing threats of (you know what you are saying) rebellion, over what? Reasonable laws to keep guns out of the hands of wack-o-doodles like this child killer? Pick your battles, but I cannot believe you are choosing to protect this killer.

Am I understanding you correctly?

If you think I am saying that no matter how many laws are passed and no matter how many restrictions are put on millions of law-abiding citizens there will still be tragedy; if you think I am saying that there has never been a "reasonable" amount of gun control that wouldn't change the fact that mentally disturbed individuals will always commit atrocities, regardless of how many rights we willingly surrender; then you understand me correctly.

I know my limits - I and I alone. What I was and what I am saying is that proudly displaying a brazen attitude about insurrection over the unknown may be overstepping a bit, particularly on a public forum.

There may be an issue I'd be willing to die for. There may be one you are willing to die for. But for the life of me, I wouldn't brazenly state as much on an open forum. When the time comes - if, indeed, it ever does - proclaiming such openly only invites more dissent and enhances the probability that the threshold will be met.

I'm curious - what would YOU consider "reasonable"? What "reasonable" measures could have mitigated this tragedy?

427
12-14-2012, 20:24
Stop protecting crazy people getting their hands on guns.Who is protecting crazy people?

Understand that common since laws are not a threat.
Define "common sense laws."

BTW, how many laws did this whack job break?
Understand that people are going to be moved by this level of violence, especially so when this level of violence is against kids.OK

Stop appearing to be uncaring machines and start appearing to be caring human beings.What are you talking about?

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:24
Stop protecting crazy people getting their hands on guns.
Understand that common since laws are not a threat.
Understand that people are going to be moved by this level of violence, especially so when this level of violence is against kids.
Stop appearing to be uncaring machines and start appearing to be caring human beings.

What common sense laws do you propose and how do you know who the crazy people are before they carry out an act like this?

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:26
Stop protecting crazy people getting their hands on guns.
Understand that common since laws are not a threat.
Understand that people are going to be moved by this level of violence, especially so when this level of violence is against kids.
Stop appearing to be uncaring machines and start appearing to be caring human beings.

Again, I ask... what "common sense" measures would have prevented this? Crazy people pass for "normal" every day. How do you stop ALL of them from getting their hands on guns?

To answer your earlier question - one is too many. The question isn't how many are "too many", but what do you propose we do about it?

mj9mm
12-14-2012, 20:26
Tim Mcvey killed 168 people, including 19 children, and injured 450 others with fertilizer, diesel fuel and a Ryder truck.

Ban trucks, fertilizer and fuel? Sick people are everywhere. One cannot overcome evil by running from it. You must NEUTRALIZE it. IMMEDIATELY.

:agree:that should be enough said, but reasoning will not be allowed

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:27
What common sense laws do you propose and how do you know who the crazy people are before they carry out an act like this?

Answer: You can't.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:28
Answer: You can't.

Gpruitt seems to think you can.

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:29
Gpruitt seems to think you can.

I anxiously await his reply.

vettely
12-14-2012, 20:29
Stop protecting crazy people getting their hands on guns.

Understand that common since laws are not a threat.

Understand that people are going to be moved by this level of violence, especiallyso when this level of violence is against kids.

Stop appearing behaving like uncaring machines and start appearingbehaving like caring human beings.


What new all powerful perfect law do you propose be added to the already 1000+ laws all ready in effect? Why do you think more legislation/government is going to free us of evil while not enslaving us.

evlbruce
12-14-2012, 20:29
I'm not. Honestly.... It's a tragedy, & it's not right I agree. I'm not heartless or cold...I'm just not shocked this happened. It was only a matter of time. I'm surprised it's shocked the gun community. This world is rough, Not just the US, but all over.

This.

The world is a big place where many terrible things happen. I don't recall many posting when a school bus was destroyed by a train in Egypt, or when schools full of children collapsed in China. In today's tragedy just like the disasters in Szechuan and Manfalut, existing laws and/or procedures where in place yet did nothing to prevent the events from happening as the laws where not obeyed and procedures where not followed.

frank4570
12-14-2012, 20:31
Anybody but me find it terribly ironic that he is terribly distraught by this, as any normal person is, but he's pro abortion?

.

This is the political forum and we are talking about an elementary school slaughter and gun control.

You are looking for an abortion discussion in religious issues. Not even close.

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:32
Perhaps when we quit pretending we live in a bubble, where crazy doesn't happen... perhaps when we prepare for this eventuality, we can prevent it. More gun laws will prevent nothing.

ClydeG19
12-14-2012, 20:35
Need some help. I can't find any stats on Australia, which someone I'm engaging in a 2a debate is portraying as a gun free utopia. What have you got?

Jonesee
12-14-2012, 20:37
In a perfect world, you could seperate Crazy from Guns.
In this world however, you just can't

Time will tell but in this instance, and a lot of facts are yet to come out. It would seem at this juncture, there should have been a solid gunsafe between this troubled young man and the guns.

Sadly, you can't hold mom accountable because it appears she was the first one to realize it.

427
12-14-2012, 20:39
Need some help. I can't find any stats on Australia, which someone I'm engaging in a 2a debate is portraying as a gun free utopia. What have you got?

Just google "gun crime australia".

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 20:43
Again, I ask... what "common sense" measures would have prevented this? Crazy people pass for "normal" every day. How do you stop ALL of them from getting their hands on guns?

To answer your earlier question - one is too many. The question isn't how many are "too many", but what do you propose we do about it?

Common since is to place traffic lights in specific intersections, to put stop signs at other intersections. But, accidents happen, even at controlled intersections. Of course, things will happen. Who is asking for perfection? Perfection does not exist in this world, but we do what we can do. If there are things we can do, we should. Those actions (laws) may not prevent all bad things, but that should not prevent us from doing what we can do.

I am not all wise, but doing nothing is behaving all stupid.

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:43
Just google "gun crime australia".

Wait... this can't be right... I got over 35 MILLION hits, the first page of which shows INCREASES in gun crime. UNPOSSIBLE!

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 20:45
Stop protecting crazy people getting their hands on guns.

Understand that common since laws are not a threat.

Understand that people are going to be moved by this level of violence, especiallyso when this level of violence is against kids.

Stop appearing behaving like uncaring machines and start appearingbehaving like caring human beings.


I don't believe you'll find anybody who will argue that people like this should not own guns. It absolutely is what needs to be done. The question then becomes "How?" It is when this question is asked that you run into problems.

How do you regulate what a person thinks? How do you differentiate a person who is going to commit a crime from a person who just needs some consoling? It's already a hot button issue that the government is trying to classify our returning veterans as "too volatile" to own guns.

The answer, unfortunately, is that there is no way to identify those individuals. We are left, then, in a reactionary state. We can either react by doing nothing, or we can do something. We can provide for better security for our children... But that's not the prevailing thought, is it? The reaction of the "civilized" and "educated" mind is to enact further legislation. Legislation which can and will trample on the rights of good and free men. But, the mind that uses "common sense" says that the problem is one with security, and therefore the security in these areas needs to be enhanced either with a uniformed force, or a civilian force.

Remember, "those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither."

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:46
Common since is to place traffic lights in specific intersections, to put stop signs at other intersections. But, accidents happen, even at controlled intersections. Of course, things will happen. Who is asking for perfection? Perfection does not exist in this world, but we do what we can do. If there are things we can do, we should. Those actions (laws) may not prevent all bad things, but that should not prevent us from doing what we can do.

I am not all wise, but doing nothing is behaving all stupid.

You have no common SENSE ideas because there aren't any. The tragic reality is that disturbed people do horrible things.

There IS no "common SENSE" law that can prevent - or even mitigate - this sort of tragedy. Except possibly a quick and well placed shot to the cranium of the disturbed individual when they try to commit these atrocities.

427
12-14-2012, 20:49
Common since is to place traffic lights in specific intersections, to put stop signs at other intersections. But, accidents happen, even at controlled intersections. Of course, things will happen. Who is asking for perfection? Perfection does not exist in this world, but we do what we can do. If there are things we can do, we should. Those actions (laws) may not prevent all bad things, but that should not prevent us from doing what we can do.

I am not all wise, but doing nothing is behaving all stupid.

What "common sense laws" do you propose?

How many laws did the whack job break today? Any of those laws, including multiple counts of murder stop the guy?

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:49
Human nature is to look for a "bogie man" to blame. We MUST have a "target" for our outrage. It's natural. Particularly in the emotional aftermath of such an unspeakable evil.

Wise men stop and take a breath before taking action. Fools rush headlong into the "blame game", trying to "do something", ANYTHING, convinced they are better doing anything rather than do nothing.

When a wise man presents an idea that may have actually had a positive effect on this horrible outcome, I'll listen. But even that needs to be weighed against the rights of the individual and the protection offered by having firearms.

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 20:50
What new all powerful perfect law do you propose be added to the already 1000+ laws all ready in effect? Why do you think more legislation/government is going to free us of evil while not enslaving us.

Who said anything about perfection? That is a strawman statement. There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Should that mean we should do nothing?

Are you saying we should do nothing?

Wraith
12-14-2012, 20:51
You can never outlaw free will and the free will of those who are mentally/socially unstable therefore you can never stop senseless tragedy no matter how many laws you create to stop those that would obey those laws anyway.

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:51
Who said anything about perfection? That is a strawman statement. There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Should that mean we should do nothing?

Are you saying we should do nothing?

I, for one, am saying let's not do "something" just to avoid doing nothing.

427
12-14-2012, 20:53
Who said anything about perfection? That is a strawman statement. There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Should that mean we should do nothing?

Are you saying we should do nothing?

What, specifically, should be done?

You said we need "common sense laws", what are they? Lets hear them.

Wraith
12-14-2012, 20:53
I, for one, am saying let's not do "something" just to avoid doing nothing.

Exactly

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:53
Common since is to place traffic lights in specific intersections, to put stop signs at other intersections. But, accidents happen, even at controlled intersections. Of course, things will happen. Who is asking for perfection? Perfection does not exist in this world, but we do what we can do. If there are things we can do, we should. Those actions (laws) may not prevent all bad things, but that should not prevent us from doing what we can do.

I am not all wise, but doing nothing is behaving all stupid.

Common sense would tell you that people are less likely to go on a shooting spree in a place where they would in turn be shot.
Common sense would tell you that gun free zones attract crazy shooters like a light attracts a moth.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:55
Who said anything about perfection? That is a strawman statement. There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Should that mean we should do nothing?

Are you saying we should do nothing?

We should definitely do something. Eliminating gun free zones would be a good start as would increasing the number of people carrying guns.

Ruble Noon
12-14-2012, 20:57
You can never outlaw free will and the free will of those who are mentally/socially unstable therefore you can never stop senseless tragedy no matter how many laws you create to stop those that would obey those laws anyway.

Exactly. The lawless do not care about laws.

GAFinch
12-14-2012, 20:58
This is the political forum and we are talking about an elementary school slaughter and gun control.

You are looking for an abortion discussion in religious issues. Not even close.

You don't think the issue of murdering helpless innocent babies isn't relevant to this discussion of helpless innocent children being murdered?

QNman
12-14-2012, 20:59
You don't think the issue of murdering helpless innocent babies isn't relevant to this discussion of helpless innocent children being murdered?

No. It's not.

I am pro-life. But this is not the discussion here.

whoops dude
12-14-2012, 21:01
Need some help. I can't find any stats on Australia, which someone I'm engaging in a 2a debate is portraying as a gun free utopia. What have you got?I did quite an extensive report on the right to have guns in the U.S. versus other countries gun ban. Gun crime statistics are kind of moot. Look at statistics of all crimes committed and you could argue how having a means of self defense (firearms) could have prevented these.

clint curtis
12-14-2012, 21:05
Register mentally ill people, and give that list to the background check people.

Gpruitt54
12-14-2012, 21:11
What "common sense laws" do you propose?

How many laws did the whack job break today? Any of those laws, including multiple counts of murder stop the guy?

You know as much about any laws broken as I do.

What I am asking is why all the hand wringing at the very thought of visiting current gun laws.

In this single forum, we have seen the typical fretting, threats of rebellion, and paranoid delusions that this President, this African American President is going to take our guns. I ask you, is this not something that Congress alone would have the power to do? Congress writes laws, not the President. So, what is the hand wringing about? Oh, of course, politics, race, and axe grinding. Nothing more!

QNman
12-14-2012, 21:12
Register mentally ill people, and give that list to the background check people.

Who do you register? Anyone who's ever met with a psychiatrist? Anyone on Zoloft?

Many - dare I suggest MOST - mentally ill folks who end up shooting up schools and theaters don't "register" or seek help from professionals.

It's a nice idea... until you apply it to reality.

QNman
12-14-2012, 21:13
You know as much about any laws broken as I do.

What I am asking is why all the hand wringing at the very thought of visiting current gun laws.

In this single forum, we have seen the typical fretting, threats of rebellion, and paranoid delusions that this President, this African American President is going to take our guns. I ask you, is this not something that Congress alone would have the power to do? Congress writes laws, not the President. So, what is the hand wringing about? Oh, of course, politics, race, and axe grinding. Nothing more!

Ah, of course... injecting race into the equation.

Not all those you project your thoughts onto are white. Don't let the avatar fool you.

427
12-14-2012, 21:20
You know as much about any laws broken as I do.

What I am asking is why all the hand wringing at the very thought of visiting current gun laws. To what end? What law(s) new or otherwise would've stopped what happened today? You keep dodging the question with non answers.

In this single forum, we have seen the typical fretting, threats of rebellion, and paranoid delusions that this President, this African American President is going to take our guns.The Obama is on record for a new ban. To me, his race is irrelevant.
I ask you, is this not something that Congress alone would have the power to do?The congress can do that. Executive branch can legislate through a number of means through, for example executive orders, and reclassification of firearms.
Congress writes laws, not the President.The president signs them into law.
So, what is the hand wringing about? Oh, of course, politics, race, and axe grinding. Nothing more!OK, now what?


Now I'll ask again; What laws, new or otherwise, would've prevented what happened today?

countrygun
12-14-2012, 21:23
Register mentally ill people, and give that list to the background check people.

I would like to take you seriously, but that would be an insult to your intelligence, so I choose to think you were being facetious.

50 Cent
12-14-2012, 21:29
Again, I ask... what "common sense" measures would have prevented this? Crazy people pass for "normal" every day. How do you stop ALL of them from getting their hands on guns?

To answer your earlier question - one is too many. The question isn't how many are "too many", but what do you propose we do about it?


Sounds like he stole the guns from his mom - who he then offed. Background checks / mental checks couldn't have stopped that.

50 Cent
12-14-2012, 21:31
I sincerely hope that this is the action all of us take as a stand against the stupidity that will be waged against us.



Agreed - maybe its time to have a rally or march - A MILLION gunman MARCH and then wink at the antis to see what they want to do.

But realistically with Congress in Republican hands - heck the Senate in Reid's hands as much as I hate him he's no Brady - NO changes are coming.

QNman
12-14-2012, 21:32
You know as much about any laws broken as I do.

What I am asking is why all the hand wringing at the very thought of visiting current gun laws.

In this single forum, we have seen the typical fretting, threats of rebellion, and paranoid delusions that this President, this African American President is going to take our guns. I ask you, is this not something that Congress alone would have the power to do? Congress writes laws, not the President. So, what is the hand wringing about? Oh, of course, politics, race, and axe grinding. Nothing more!

By the way - as to the POTUS and his powers... I am not admonishing only the POTUS. Any congressman is suspect here.

QNman
12-14-2012, 21:34
Agreed - maybe its time to have a rally or march - A MILLION gunman MARCH and then wink at the antis to see what they want to do.

But realistically with Congress in Republican hands - heck the Senate in Reid's hands as much as I hate him he's no Brady - NO changes are coming.

I hope you're right... but I never thought Obamacare would pass either. I also thought (and hoped) the GOP congress would pass a budget, or fight tax hikes - but I leave that for another thread.

Bottom line - I trust none of them.

frank4570
12-14-2012, 21:35
In this single forum, we have seen the typical fretting, threats of rebellion, and paranoid delusions that this President, this African American President is going to take our guns.

Racism?? Why in the world do you start with the racist crap?

427
12-14-2012, 21:39
Sounds like he stole the guns from his mom - who he then offed. Background checks / mental checks couldn't have stopped that.

I'm just curious, if true, why mom had a 10mm. It seems a little odd to me.

Just speculation on my part, but perhaps the weapons were not hers but one of her son's. Again, speculation on my part.

Lockback
12-14-2012, 21:39
Register mentally ill people, and give that list to the background check people.

On a day in which I've read a staggering number of stupendously ridiculous suggestions, this post is climbing up the charts ... and rather quickly.

vettely
12-14-2012, 21:44
Who said anything about perfection? That is a strawman statement. There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Should that mean we should do nothing?

Are you saying we should do nothing?
Your right, the world is not perfect. Man is not perfect. Man's laws are not perfect. Thw world is full of evil. Basically s'h-t happens and that's part of life.

Equivalent tragedies happen throughout the world, if not by firearms, by accidents, explosions, poisonings, stabbings, drownings, famine, disease, war.. Need I go on?

So, no, we should not do anything as far as restricting our freedoms and liberty. It is sad, it sucks, but its reality.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 21:45
In this single forum, we have seen the typical fretting, threats of rebellion, and paranoid delusions that this President, this African American President is going to take our guns. I ask you, is this not something that Congress alone would have the power to do? Congress writes laws, not the President. So, what is the hand wringing about? Oh, of course, politics, race, and axe grinding. Nothing more!

Nobody has said anything about this president's race here. So it's definitely not about race. Besides that, the Democrats have more blood on their hands when it comes to the "race" issue than Republicans.

Oh wait... I forgot my role... When I offer an opinion different than yours you're supposed to cry "Racist!" And I'm supposed to cower and run away while I piss my pants. Sorry.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 21:56
Register mentally ill people, and give that list to the background check people.

Sure. Why not. It's not like a government could use that information to rid itself of undesirables. I mean, it hasn't happened before.... like, in the 1930s... in Germany.... with homosexuals...

CanMan
12-14-2012, 22:03
It would seem at this juncture, there should have been a solid gunsafe between this troubled young man and the gun.


And the winner is ^

Mom should have been the first one to realize her cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs kid's problems. Even if she was in denial, it was incumbent on her to prevent his access to firearms. She certainly paid the ultimate price for her lack of foresight. Unfortunately a lot of others did too.

countrygun
12-14-2012, 22:06
On a day in which I've read a staggering number of stupendously ridiculous suggestions, this post is climbing up the charts ... and rather quickly.

It is amazing that he managed to include so much stupidity and ignorance in one simple post, isn't it?

TactiCool
12-14-2012, 22:07
Racism?? Why in the world do you start with the racist crap?

Actually, gun control and racism are closely related, historically speaking.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/scholarly/racistroots.htm

clint curtis
12-14-2012, 22:09
Who do you register? Anyone who's ever met with a psychiatrist? Anyone on Zoloft?

Many - dare I suggest MOST - mentally ill folks who end up shooting up schools and theaters don't "register" or seek help from professionals.

It's a nice idea... until you apply it to reality.

If a person is "different" they by law should be checked out. Most teachers know when a kid might need help....give the schools some legal authority to set up an evaluation with a professional.

Register them all. If they want to buy a gun, they first have to be cleared by the court system.

It looked like there were 100 LE with ar15's.......their assault rifles did't kill anyone. The scum bag nut job was the problem.

Hef
12-14-2012, 22:16
Any mention of the police response time?

The Newtown PD are a bunch of bungling idiots. I am sure it took forever.

Kablam
12-14-2012, 22:18
And the winner is ^

Mom should have been the first one to realize her cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs kid's problems. Even if she was in denial, it was incumbent on her to prevent his access to firearms. She certainly paid the ultimate price for her lack of foresight. Unfortunately a lot of others did too.

That pretty much places the blame on someone other than the shooter doesn't it? Bad direction to go. Mom didn't hurt anybody, she was a victim. Is that hard to understand?

frank4570
12-14-2012, 22:27
If a person is "different" they by law should be checked out.

A staggering number of people. Starting with war veterans.

427
12-14-2012, 22:28
If a person is "different" they by law should be checked out. Most teachers know when a kid might need help....give the schools some legal authority to set up an evaluation with a professional. I'm sure there a lot of people who were "different" in their youth that have turned out fine.

I went to a Catholic school. I wore black, listened to metal, and was defiant. I'm sure that if the standards of today were used when I was in school, I'd probably be "different" enough to be put on one of those lists. Yeah, no.

Register them all.Lets have a kid who's "different" go around with a scarlet letter for the rest of his/her life.

If they want to buy a gun, they first have to be cleared by the court system. Wouldn't a shrink have to declare them sane - doctor's excuse?

It looked like there were 100 LE with ar15's.......their assault rifles did't kill anyone. The scum bag nut job was the problem.

QNman
12-14-2012, 22:36
If a person is "different" they by law should be checked out. Most teachers know when a kid might need help....give the schools some legal authority to set up an evaluation with a professional.

Register them all. If they want to buy a gun, they first have to be cleared by the court system.

It looked like there were 100 LE with ar15's.......their assault rifles did't kill anyone. The scum bag nut job was the problem.

Well, the problem there is the "problem children" can pass as normal. Ted Bundy was passed off as "normal" every day. Jeffrey Dahmer too.

Any indication that ANYONE thought this lunatic was mentally unstable? Time will tell, I suppose, but not necessarily.

And again, I say... many of those responsible for this type of atrocity aren't diagnosed. So who do you register?

clint curtis
12-14-2012, 22:39
Well I guess there is no solution....scum bag nut jobs will be owning guns. Run for cover.

QNman
12-14-2012, 22:52
Well I guess there is no solution....scum bag nut jobs will be owning guns. Run for cover.

Or... fire back.

If you have another solution, you have an audience.

ballr4lyf
12-14-2012, 22:58
Well I guess there is no solution....scum bag nut jobs will be owning guns. Run for cover.

Not unless we can start predicting the future with a high level of reliability. Until then, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

countrygun
12-14-2012, 23:35
If a person is "different" they by law should be checked out. Most teachers know when a kid might need help....give the schools some legal authority to set up an evaluation with a professional.

Register them all. If they want to buy a gun, they first have to be cleared by the court system.

It looked like there were 100 LE with ar15's.......their assault rifles did't kill anyone. The scum bag nut job was the problem.

Lets just start with "what are your standards going to be"? Then we have the sticky problem of people like the ACLU who have this silly notion about taking peoples rights to contend with. What about someone who just lost their family and may be clinically depressed? How about a woman with PMS? Maybe women, in general shouldn't be allowed to own guns? Just exactly where is this magic line?

We can move on to another area of concern. "How come people like that can drive a car? Do you know how many foot-pounds of energy they have at their disposal?

By the way who is checking up on the "experts" who would now have the power to deprive people of their Constitutional rights? How do we know that they don't have some mental defect that causes them to fear guns or perhaps a political predilection to disarm the society? Suppose they think "that anyone who wants to own a gun is crazy", and they are the ones with the power to make that decision?

.
.
.
.
.

Simple sounding solutions to complex problems, especially when they center around "Let's make it somebody else's responsibility" rarely work effectively or as intended.

Taphius
12-14-2012, 23:46
Lets just start with "what are your standards going to be"? Then we have the sticky problem of people like the ACLU who have this silly notion about taking peoples rights to contend with. What about someone who just lost their family and may be clinically depressed? How about a woman with PMS? Maybe women, in general shouldn't be allowed to own guns? Just exactly where is this magic line?

We can move on to another area of concern. "How come people like that can drive a car? Do you know how many foot-pounds of energy they have at their disposal?

By the way who is checking up on the "experts" who would now have the power to deprive people of their Constitutional rights? How do we know that they don't have some mental defect that causes them to fear guns or perhaps a political predilection to disarm the society? Suppose they think "that anyone who wants to own a gun is crazy", and they are the ones with the power to make that decision?

.
.
.
.
.

Simple sounding solutions to complex problems, especially when they center around "Let's make it somebody else's responsibility" rarely work effectively or as intended.

Yeah...our schools have students lining up for the bus outside or outside for the pledge of allegiance. A speeding car will create a far worse scene.

Freedom isn't for the faint of heart

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

Chronos
12-14-2012, 23:49
The one thing everyone here should know absolutely is that more violence/coercion against the innocent is not a solution. It would be an absolute travesty if this kind of violence were used as an excuse for coercion of innocent people -- and it is exactly what the MSM-political complex are pushing for RIGHT NOW, because it is exactly in times such as this that reason flies out the window.

domin8ss
12-14-2012, 23:59
I definitely hugged my son a little tighter tonight when my wife brought him home. He's my only child, and is 2 years old.

Today has been rough for me. Rarely do I cry. Today I have cried a lot. Not only for the children, but for the Danbury Hospital staff too. It hits home for me.

Like many, I have internalized this tragedy. What if this was my son that was shot and killed. Since his school is right across the street from a hospital I know he would be taken there. Problem is, my wife is the Pediatric Clinic Nurse Manager. She would obviously try to rush to my sons bedside if he were brought in, but due to conflict of interest they would try to keep her separated. Add to that the Danbury hospital was locked down. It's foreseeable to anticipate that I wouldn't be allowed in for my wife or son. How do you handle that?

Of the children that were shot only a few were taken to the hospital. 2 of which died. Imagine being that parent that knows their child suffered before succumbing to their injuries. That child likely only wanted mommy and daddy while in immense pain.

As a parent and a gun owner I understand there was a failure somewhere that allowed this to happen. I don't know if this is fact, but I have heard the guns used at the elementary school in CT today were registered to the parents of the shooter. This makes you wonder how the shooter obtained them. In my opinion, there is a liability here with the gun owners. Somebody was able to obtain their weapon, and kill them with it. As responsible owners we try to never let this happen. I think I can speak for all of us when I say everybody on this forum does not want to be a part of something like this tragedy. This is a reminder to be accountable for our weapons at all times.

Before today my wife had the spare key to my gun safe. That is no longer the case. Not only will she never use one of my guns because she's mortified by the noise, but she also leaves her keys laying around in random places throughout the house. I view this as negligence. For the safety of my family and others, I now have all keys pertaining to my weapons hanging from the same ring as my car keys. Why my car keys? Because they are all on a caribbeaner dangling from my belt loop. They only time they are not on me is when I'm asleep at night. At that time they are in my night strange right next to me.

Although my son is only 2 years old today and cannot use a key or a gun, I fear the day he can. As a parent I want to keep him safe at all times. Not only for his safety, but the safety of others. I don't want to be the person who finds out the hard way that my weapon was negligently obtained and used in a crime, especially one that lila innocent people.

I ask everybody on this forum to reassess how their weapons are secured and handled. Is there something we could be doing better to avoid something similar to todays tragedy from hitting closer to home? If so, I encourage you to do it.

I'm not anti-gun. I am not blind to the fact that the recent mass killings involving guns have all occurred in states that voted blue (Wisconsin, Connecticut, Illinois, Oregon, Colorado, etc.). These states all have stricter gun control laws. I do not favor gun control legislation, just gun control and safety among private gun owners. We, as a nation, do not need bans on assault rifles, to outlaw the sale of handguns, or anything else that impedes with the 2nd Amendment. We just need more responsible ownership and education.

Right now I teach my 2 year old that I'd he sees a gun it is not a toy. He should not touch it, but should go tell an adult. When he is old enough for Cub Scouts I will consider enrolling him in gun safety courses. This is what I can do to help ensure that members of my own family do not effect yours in retires similar to the tragedy that has occurred in Connecticut today. All I ask is you do the same.

Will you do this with me?

Happypuppy
12-15-2012, 00:06
I hope this data will be of use when showing why we are pro guns and self defense



Data from the SAF and others. There are 1.2M defensive gun uses per year.
There are only 14,000 homicides.


Mass shootings prevented by use of guns (civilian)
http://www.volokh.com/2012/12/14/do-civilians-armed-with-guns-ever-capture-kill-or-otherwise-stop-mass-shooters/

FBI UCR 2011 all violent crimes are down again ( a long trend)
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/june/crimes_061112/crimes_061112

To keep it in perspective

1992 Tot Pop. 255m. Murders Tot. 24,000

2011 Tot Pop. 311m. Murder Tot. 14,000

GAFinch
12-15-2012, 00:45
I ask everybody on this forum to reassess how their weapons are secured and handled. Is there something we could be doing better to avoid something similar to todays tragedy from hitting closer to home? If so, I encourage you to do it.

Freedom and personal responsibility certainly go hand in hand.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 01:41
We should definitely do something. Eliminating gun free zones would be a good start as would increasing the number of people carrying guns.
I have had an ongoing debate with the columnist in our local paper about gun control. We each tend to trot out the well-worn arguments pro and con. His Saturday morning column is filled with the heart-wrenching emotion we all feel but like Obama concludes with "we just have to do something!"

Inspired by some of the comments in this thread, I got a constructive idea that perhaps the gun community can get behind. As a conservative, I have resisted any and all tax increases I've ever seen. One of my foundational political beliefs is that government is too big, has too much money, uses it's money (read power) to impinge my rights and therefore should not raise taxes. But I told this to my friendly adversary at the newspaper: Society should be willing to defend its most precious resources. I believe it is wrong and illogical to make our schools targets by making them gun-free zones. Therefore, I will gladly support a property tax increase that goes directly to providing adequate armed security in each school in our district (note that my children are grown). Just, please, don't use this tragedy to restrict my liberty in the misguided belief that you are improving your security.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 01:47
You don't think the issue of murdering helpless innocent babies isn't relevant to this discussion of helpless innocent children being murdered?

No. It's not.

I am pro-life. But this is not the discussion here.

I do find it ironic and hypocritical that the gun-control crowd bemoaning the loss of "innocent lives" in this tragedy are the same folks who turn their backs on the murder of millions (yes, millions) of the innocent unborn with their "pro-choice" politics.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 01:55
The Newtown PD are a bunch of bungling idiots. I am sure it took forever.

I'm not in a position to pass judgment on this statement but, by all reports, as soon as the Newtown PD realized what they were up against, they called in the State Police.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 02:03
I I am not blind to the fact that the recent mass killings involving guns have all occurred in states that voted blue (Wisconsin, Connecticut, Illinois, Oregon, Colorado, etc.). These states all have stricter gun control laws.
This is a very interesting observation...

sharpshooter
12-15-2012, 02:20
Flipping thru channels and saw Geraldo spewing lies on the O'Reilly show. Geraldo said the gunman used "extended magazines", wore a "bullet proof vest", and wore "camouflage" clothing.

False. False. False. O'Reilly did not correct him.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 02:26
Flipping thru channels and saw Geraldo spewing lies on the O'Reilly show. Geraldo said the gunman used "extended magazines", wore a "bullet proof vest", and wore "camouflage" clothing.

False. False. False. O'Reilly did not correct him.

Oh, you can just smell the magazine capacity restrictions coming only this time, they won't stop at ten. 5 or 6 would be my guess. I also saw one guy explaining to the public that there really is no difference between automatic and semi-automatic because you can pull the trigger so fast on a semi that in effect, it becomes an auto.

happyguy
12-15-2012, 03:45
Those little children depended on the adults to keep them safe and the adults failed them.

Every one of those adults who survived should be asking themselves why they didn't stop the carnage and what they should have done differently.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Cavalry Doc
12-15-2012, 04:17
Here's a solution:

Dump the Dept of Education and use that money for security guards for schools.

Sign me up for that one.

Cavalry Doc
12-15-2012, 04:20
I don't believe you'll find anybody who will argue that people like this should not own guns. It absolutely is what needs to be done. The question then becomes "How?" It is when this question is asked that you run into problems.

How do you regulate what a person thinks? How do you differentiate a person who is going to commit a crime from a person who just needs some consoling? It's already a hot button issue that the government is trying to classify our returning veterans as "too volatile" to own guns.

The answer, unfortunately, is that there is no way to identify those individuals. We are left, then, in a reactionary state. We can either react by doing nothing, or we can do something. We can provide for better security for our children... But that's not the prevailing thought, is it? The reaction of the "civilized" and "educated" mind is to enact further legislation. Legislation which can and will trample on the rights of good and free men. But, the mind that uses "common sense" says that the problem is one with security, and therefore the security in these areas needs to be enhanced either with a uniformed force, or a civilian force.

Remember, "those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither."

Odd, but news reports show the guns were owned by his mother. It would be interesting to learn more of the history.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 04:24
Here's what the real world is saying...

My wife is a nurse at a surgery center. She is surrounded by well-educated women. She called me five minutes after arriving at work this morning to tell me the CT shooting was all anyone was talking about. They are nearly unanimous in wanting "those handguns banned". One nurse was crowing how her husband sent 20 messages to her congressman to do just that. This is not exactly NYC around here.

X-ray 4N6
12-15-2012, 04:26
Every one of those adults who survived should be asking themselves why they didn't stop the carnage and what they should have done differently

It's not that black and white, one teacher kept several children safe in a bathroom by keeping them still and quiet. To those children's parents that teacher did everything right.
This isn't about the teachers, or gun free zones or the guns themselves.
It is about the "essence" of what made that 20 year old go off the rails. We have had these mass shootings in the UK also, and after the last one David Cameron made the observation that you can't legislate against someone going off the handle.

The question is what do you do when there is an increasing trend in these mass shootings? Especially after this last one which is perceived to be particularly evil and imbued with tremendous sadness and rage at the killing of these kids.

How did Adam Lanza get to the place he was, mentally? That's what I want to know, and that is the key to reducing these incidents in my opinion.

Cavalry Doc
12-15-2012, 04:31
Not unless we can start predicting the future with a high level of reliability. Until then, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Layered physical security. Checkpoints at the entrance to the parking lot, limit entrances. Ability to bar doors from inside. Fire doors doubling as locked area sequestration devices.

Armed overwatching of traffic control points, quick reaction force on site, armed and with superior body armor. Arming teachers? Maybe. Most aren't gun people, but if they took a class similar to the armed airline pilots, that could work out.

Layered PHYSICAL security and an armed response capability would work.

Doubt that will be tried.

Cavalry Doc
12-15-2012, 04:34
I'm not in a position to pass judgment on this statement but, by all reports, as soon as the Newtown PD realized what they were up against, they called in the State Police.

Time will tell, but also heard they didn't waste time entering, unlike Virginia tech where they waited a long time to go in, as shots were being fired.

Very unfortunate, and illustrative of how an on site force is needed.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 04:36
Layered physical security. Checkpoints at the entrance to the parking lot, limit entrances. Ability to bar doors from inside. Fire doors doubling as locked area sequestration devices.

Armed overwatching of traffic control points, quick reaction force on site, armed and with superior body armor. Arming teachers? Maybe. Most aren't gun people, but if they took a class similar to the armed airline pilots, that could work out.

Layered PHYSICAL security and an armed response capability would work.

Doubt that will be tried.
I'd love to have you in charge of security for our school district!

I'm thinking about a federal government response and I'm seeing a school TSA type agency where the unemployed are put to work for $12/ hr, put on a fine show for the folks, hassle everyone on a day-to-day basis only to cut and run when the SHTF?

Cavalry Doc
12-15-2012, 04:39
Those little children depended on the adults to keep them safe and the adults failed them.

Every one of those adults who survived should be asking themselves why they didn't stop the carnage and what they should have done differently.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

That's a little over the line of common sense and good thought process. I'm not a ninja, a double O spy, or special ops, but I've been in a scrap or two. I am completely inadequate while unarmed against a man armed as this.

Some may have tried, we don't know yet, and may never know.

There is ONE guy at fault here.

happyguy
12-15-2012, 04:48
It's not that black and white, one teacher kept several children safe in a bathroom by keeping them still and quiet. To those children's parents that teacher did everything right.

It was by the grace of God he didn't go in the bathroom and kill them all. Do you seriously believe a fit 20 year old can't kick in a bathroom door?

This isn't about the teachers, or gun free zones or the guns themselves.

I disagree. This is about keeping our children as safe as we can. There will always be evil people and if you value liberty there will always be some among us in our society.

It is about the "essence" of what made that 20 year old go off the rails. We have had these mass shootings in the UK also, and after the last one David Cameron made the observation that you can't legislate against someone going off the handle.

This should be about what the grownups do. How they respond and why they hide under the desk or in the bathroom waiting for help that comes too late.

The question is what do you do when there is an increasing trend in these mass shootings? Especially after this last one which is perceived to be particularly evil and imbued with tremendous sadness and rage at the killing of these kids.

How did Adam Lanza get to the place he was, mentally? That's what I want to know, and that is the key to reducing these incidents in my opinion.

I'm not saying I don't care how he got to the point he did, but I am saying is once he did reach it, your point is moot. When he started shooting it should have been a call to action. But that's not what we are about, is it?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

happyguy
12-15-2012, 04:59
That's a little over the line of common sense and good thought process. I'm not a ninja, a double O spy, or special ops, but I've been in a scrap or two. I am completely inadequate while unarmed against a man armed as this.

The shooter was apparently untrained and alone yet he was able to murder 28 people. He was significantly outnumbered by unarmed men and women. Why are men and women of good character who are entrusted with the safety of our children unarmed when we see these tragedy's more and more? What is it in our psyche that makes us OK with this?

Some may have tried, we don't know yet, and may never know.

They are hero's if they did.

There is ONE guy at fault here.

I totally disagree with this and until we focus on stopping these kind of attackers in their tracks they WILL continue. The men and women who were in the best position to stop this attack were unarmed. There is plenty of blame/responsibility to go around on that one. It's a societal issue IMHO.

There is going to be a lot of hand wringing and nashing of teeth. There will be calls for more gun control and more government agents to protect us. Then there will be another mass shooting and the whole cycle will repeat itself. They will be unprepared and unable to take action just as they were here.

When the SHTF the people who are on scene are on their own until help arrives what...5 minutes later? How many cornered and unarmed people can you shoot in 5 minutes if you bring spare magazines? Sorry folks, you and/or your children are on your own, at least for awhile. That is one of those harsh facts of life that many parents don't seem to teach their kids anymore.

Edit: I think four armed teachers with minimal training, a plan, and determination could have made a big difference in the outcome.


Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

sheriff733
12-15-2012, 06:12
Unless you are a total monster devoid of feelings, how can you not be moved by the deaths of so many children in this manner. Gee, are you saying that Obama should not be moved? Is it any wonder the right lost the election? Human beings have feelings, Unbelievable! There should be some controls not no controls at all on who can posses a firearm.

Dude, 20 kids are dead, shot to death. My God!

Before you assume I am an anti gun person, I am not. I am a gun owner, reloader, and CCW holder.

You're right. I forgot how many children are members of this very board. Guess I shouldn't discuss adult issues, thoughts, and points of view with elementary students, such as yourself, here on GT. Now, back to your Justin Bieber action figures or whatever you kids are into these days.

One political hot-button at a time, there skippy...

It was just an observation. Didn't mean to overload anyone.

This is the political forum and we are talking about an elementary school slaughter and gun control.

You are looking for an abortion discussion in religious issues. Not even close.

I'm not. Just making an observation about the President (that means political.) Thanks for filling me in on what my intent was though.

Cavalry Doc
12-15-2012, 06:26
I'd love to have you in charge of security for our school district!

I'm thinking about a federal government response and I'm seeing a school TSA type agency where the unemployed are put to work for $12/ hr, put on a fine show for the folks, hassle everyone on a day-to-day basis only to cut and run when the SHTF?

I'd wait for them to ef up before crapping on the idea. Humans are hard wired to protect children. More likely they would risk themselves in the attempt. I've been involved in locking down housing areas in Germany post 9/11, including realizing the threat was in 3 dimensions. We padlocked all manhole covers from the top to keep that from being a point of entry along with numerous other measures.

This is an emotionally charged tragedy, and I suspect that people will act irrationally in response, it's what people do.

ModGlock17
12-15-2012, 06:26
Here's what the real world is saying...

My wife is a nurse at a surgery center. She is surrounded by well-educated women. She called me five minutes after arriving at work this morning to tell me the CT shooting was all anyone was talking about. They are nearly unanimous in wanting "those handguns banned". One nurse was crowing how her husband sent 20 messages to her congressman to do just that. This is not exactly NYC around here.

Hand guns are banned in schools ! That is why schools are the EASIEST targets, rather than Municipal Police stations.

Why am I stating the obvious ? Because some people, as you pointed out, got knee jerked response.

And that's likely why they voted blue.

steveksux
12-15-2012, 06:35
Sounding more and more like a Murder /suicide. Just some sick MFer that hated life and decided to go out in a blaze of fire. Just unfortunately just more evidence of the moral decline of our country! Sad very sad!:crying:Really? That's what you think? Are you referring to the moral decline of the same country whose citizens are universally decrying this as a senseless tragedy?

Seems everyone except the lunatic who did this has no trouble figuring out the morality involved.

Randy

steveksux
12-15-2012, 06:50
Isn't mental illness the problem here. Seems until people focus on the real problem things like this will continue by some means.

Its a combination of things. Mental illness is only one part of the puzzle. If reports are correct, the guns belonged to the mother. You can't let people with mental issues have access to your legally owned weapons.

Randy

RussP
12-15-2012, 07:04
Here's what the real world is saying...

My wife is a nurse at a surgery center. She is surrounded by well-educated women. She called me five minutes after arriving at work this morning to tell me the CT shooting was all anyone was talking about. They are nearly unanimous in wanting "those handguns banned". One nurse was crowing how her husband sent 20 messages to her congressman to do just that. This is not exactly NYC around here. Those 20 messages, full of emotional 'sound bites', might just have more influence than 50 factual, rational, truthful messages from anyone not toeing the anti-gun line.

Here is an excerpt from an article titled, "A Christmas Wish for Newtown and America" (http://lawenforcementtoday.com/2012/12/15/a-christmas-wish-for-newtown-and-america/).I wish that Americans would understand that politicians say things to get themselves elected that create divisions between fellow Americans, causing fear, hatred and distrust between them. I wish Americans would actually stop listening to political talking points and talk to each other like fellow human beings looking for solutions to the problems we face as individuals and as a country. America does best when we help each other out and politicians havenít solved too many problems here lately. I wish that when Americans witness a horrific event like mass shootings they are not directly impacted by, that rather than flinging blame or being overwhelmed and victimized that these events serve as reminders to connect with family and friends, as well as actually reach out to those hurting, not just talk about it.

Chesafreak
12-15-2012, 07:20
Here's Massad Ayoob's article about how to deter school shootings:
MassadAyoob: AGAINST MONSTERS http://t.co/iwbWyYUx

VC-Racing
12-15-2012, 07:22
The news agencies are running wild on the GC crap. In was watching them interview some retired SWAT Capt . who was saying people should be trained to defend themselves, not to run and hide and wait on the police. Then I think he was gonna say someone with a CCW could make a huge difference in a situation like this , but CBS edited the interview as he was gonna say it.....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

alwaysshootin
12-15-2012, 07:31
Here's Massad Ayoob's article about how to deter school shootings:
MassadAyoob: AGAINST MONSTERS http://t.co/iwbWyYUx

This!^^^^^^^^^

My very first thought was, how do they handle this in Israel? This "IS" the answer.

Ruble Noon
12-15-2012, 07:39
That's a little over the line of common sense and good thought process. I'm not a ninja, a double O spy, or special ops, but I've been in a scrap or two. I am completely inadequate while unarmed against a man armed as this.

Some may have tried, we don't know yet, and may never know.

There is ONE guy at fault here.

Maybe, maybe not.

Teacher tackles gunman, stops shooting spree



LITTLETON, Colo. Feb 24 2010 ĖAP The gunman was walking through a middle school parking lot and taking shots at students with a hunting rifle as terrified teenagers ran for their lives. He had just wounded two students and seemed ready to unleash more violence when a math teacher named David Benke sprung into action.


http://privateofficernews.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/teacher-tackles-gunman-stops-shooting-spree-www-privateofficer-com/

Sam Spade
12-15-2012, 07:44
Time will tell, but also heard they didn't waste time entering, unlike Virginia tech where they waited a long time to go in, as shots were being fired.

Very unfortunate, and illustrative of how an on site force is needed.

Please don't spread disinformation. As soon as VA police arrived they tried to enter. Finding the doors barricade, they went and found another entrance. Cho self-inflicted while still in possession of hundreds of rounds due to that entry. If you want the report, PM me an e-mail address.

Sam Spade
12-15-2012, 07:45
The reality is that "something" needs to be done. Americans, let alone Americans who re-elected Obama, will not stand for this attack on children without doing something.

If the gun community doesn't want to be the scapegoat that cleanses the sins of society, they had better offer an alternative action. Platitudes about the cost of freedom will not answer the mail. Applying 18th Century rural thought to a 21st Century urban issue will not work. Neither will anything that maintains the status quo. "Something" must be done. That's the reality of the landscape and the gun community has to operate in that reality.

I don't care if someone doesn't like it, or prefers the ideals of another time. I prefer those ideals, too. I'm telling you what *is*.

barbedwiresmile
12-15-2012, 07:45
We must be careful not to adopt the media's language here and allow them to again control the debate. Note use of the term "gun man" rather than "killer" or "muderer". As in, the "gun man" did this or the "gun man" did that.

What is a "gun man"? Do you own a gun? Does that make you a "gun man"? A potential "gun man"? If one is wearing the costume of state, and carrying a gun, I notice he is not referred to as a "gun man".

People who shoot uo schools or otherwise take innocent lives are killer. Not "gun men".

barbedwiresmile
12-15-2012, 07:50
The reality is that "something" needs to be done. Americans, let alone Americans who re-elected Obama, will not stand for this attack on children without doing something.


Ah yes. "Something". Translation: rights must be restricted. That what "do something" means. Well, that or money must be confiscated. in reality, what we should do is nothing: this year, millions of children went to hundreds of thousands of schools, nationwide, for 40-something weeks, with nary a hitch. Yesterday, in one of those hundreds of thousands of schools, there was a mass murder.

The argument that we must "do something" is akin to someone drowning in a public pool, being struck by lightening, or finding oneself homeless after an earthquake and then remarking how obvious it is that 'government' must 'do something'.

The only thing we must do is protect individual liberty: that scary, uncontrollable but blessed thing. Sadly, that is not the American way.

Ruble Noon
12-15-2012, 07:52
If a person is "different" they by law should be checked out. Most teachers know when a kid might need help....give the schools some legal authority to set up an evaluation with a professional.

Register them all. If they want to buy a gun, they first have to be cleared by the court system.



Holy Hell! :wow:

PaulMason
12-15-2012, 07:55
The news agencies are running wild on the GC crap. In was watching them interview some retired SWAT Capt . who was saying people should be trained to defend themselves, not to run and hide and wait on the police. Then I think he was gonna say someone with a CCW could make a huge difference in a situation like this , but CBS edited the interview as he was gonna say it.....

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

A good point that will not get coverage.

The passengers on the 9/11 planes - based upon past hijacking - were told to just sit and let everything play out - they would eventually be released.

PaulMason
12-15-2012, 07:56
I wonder what we would be talking about if the shooter was a jihad terrorist.

Ruble Noon
12-15-2012, 07:57
The reality is that "something" needs to be done. Americans, let alone Americans who re-elected Obama, will not stand for this attack on children without doing something.

If the gun community doesn't want to be the scapegoat that cleanses the sins of society, they had better offer an alternative action. Platitudes about the cost of freedom will not answer the mail. Applying 18th Century rural thought to a 21st Century urban issue will not work. Neither will anything that maintains the status quo. "Something" must be done. That's the reality of the landscape and the gun community has to operate in that reality.

I don't care if someone doesn't like it, or prefers the ideals of another time. I prefer those ideals, too. I'm telling you what *is*.

My wife works for a college. She and many others own guns and are proficient with them but they cannot carry on campus. This is what needs to be done, change the laws and allow those who don't want to be a victim to be armed.

PaulMason
12-15-2012, 08:03
If the gun community doesn't want to be the scapegoat that cleanses the sins of society, they had better offer an alternative action.

Here is what people can do:

When some says focuses on guns - change the focus to mental health care.

The shooter was mentally ill - why wasn't this identified and treated?

Read up on Obamacare and you will see that those in the mental health field are concerned that mental health care will be reduced.

QNman
12-15-2012, 08:12
As a parent and a gun owner I understand there was a failure somewhere that allowed this to happen. I don't know if this is fact, but I have heard the guns used at the elementary school in CT today were registered to the parents of the shooter. This makes you wonder how the shooter obtained them. In my opinion, there is a liability here with the gun owners. Somebody was able to obtain their weapon, and kill them with it. As responsible owners we try to never let this happen. I think I can speak for all of us when I say everybody on this forum does not want to be a part of something like this tragedy. This is a reminder to be accountable for our weapons at all times.

...

Although my son is only 2 years old today and cannot use a key or a gun, I fear the day he can. As a parent I want to keep him safe at all times. Not only for his safety, but the safety of others. I don't want to be the person who finds out the hard way that my weapon was negligently obtained and used in a crime, especially one that lila innocent people.

I ask everybody on this forum to reassess how their weapons are secured and handled. Is there something we could be doing better to avoid something similar to todays tragedy from hitting closer to home? If so, I encourage you to do it.

I'm not anti-gun. I am not blind to the fact that the recent mass killings involving guns have all occurred in states that voted blue (Wisconsin, Connecticut, Illinois, Oregon, Colorado, etc.). These states all have stricter gun control laws. I do not favor gun control legislation, just gun control and safety among private gun owners. We, as a nation, do not need bans on assault rifles, to outlaw the sale of handguns, or anything else that impedes with the 2nd Amendment. We just need more responsible ownership and education.

Right now I teach my 2 year old that I'd he sees a gun it is not a toy. He should not touch it, but should go tell an adult. When he is old enough for Cub Scouts I will consider enrolling him in gun safety courses. This is what I can do to help ensure that members of my own family do not effect yours in retires similar to the tragedy that has occurred in Connecticut today. All I ask is you do the same.

Will you do this with me?

Good post.

I have three sons. The youngest is five. The older two can recite the "ten rules of gun safety" (they're 10 and 12). They have been trained to handle a gun safely, first with toys, then with air guns, and finally with a 10/22. No offense is tolerated - any offense or disregard for any of the gun safety rules is immediate termination of gun rights, and resorts back to the toy (though this has never happened).

The youngest knows the one rule all young ones must know - "If you see a gun, it is not a toy. Do not touch it, do not allow others to touch it, and inform a grown-up immediately". He once asked me about a toy gun a friend brought (the gun was bright orange). I was proud.

All my firearms are in a safe. My safe is in a secure room, with closely spaces studs, 3/4-inch plywood, and a steel door with a deadbolt. The only key to the deadbolt is on my keychain (same reason as yours).

Why the "double layer" of security? Just in case... if I ever fail to engage one of the two locks properly, I almost certainly wouldn't fail on both.

I take gun security VERY seriously. I trust my kids, but they have friends over from time to time, and I do not know each of their respective training.

I invite each person to review their gun safety at their home and take it very seriously as well.