Dem Lawmaker: Obama Must 'Exploit' School Shooting To Get Gun Control [Archive] - Glock Talk

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snerd
12-15-2012, 14:58
Dem. Rep. Jerrold Nadler is at least being honest (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/14/dem-lawmaker-get-gun-control-obama-must-exploit-sh/) about how he, and no doubt many Leftists, would like to feast off an unthinkable tragedy and exploit it in order to pursue a nonsensical agenda that would ensure only bad guys have guns. Last night on "The Ed Show," Nadler openly called for President Obama to "exploit" the murder of 20 children, “I think we will be there if the president exploits it, and otherwise we’ll go on to the next.”

In his statement (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/14/Is-Obama-Already-Politicizing-Sandy-Hook-Shooting) to the country yesterday, while he wasn't specific about what action he intended to take, President Obama did make clear that action would be forthcoming. Obama also hinted that this action would be politically divisive when he warned that "meaningful action" would need to be taken "regardless of the politics."

As we all know this is a "never let a crisis go to waste" president and party. And what we now have is Nadler, a powerful Democrat, already eager to "exploit" raw emotions and the massacre of children in order to push an issue Democrats have considered politically untouchable since Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee, and along with it, the White House, during his 2000 presidential bid.http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/15/Dem-Lawmaker-Obama-Must-Exploit-School-Shooting

(http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/15/Dem-Lawmaker-Obama-Must-Exploit-School-Shooting)

snerd
12-15-2012, 15:00
Holder: "We Must Ask Ourselves Some Hard Questions"

"As a nation I think we have to ask ourselves some hard questions. We gather too often to talk about these kinds of incidents. We need to discuss who we are as a nation, talk about the freedoms that we have, the rights that we have and how those might be used in a responsible way. But for now I think we should concentrate on dealing with the situation in Connecticut and we are doing, and I said, the best we can at the Justice Department and throughout federal law enforcement."

Mr. Holder has not been one to hide his hatred of guns.http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/15/Holder-We-Must-Ask-Ourselves-Some-Hard-Questions

jakebrake
12-15-2012, 15:01
anyone willing to politicize this tragedy for either side, for any purpose should be electrocuted.....

yes, i mean that.

aircarver
12-15-2012, 15:01
Let's answer some hard questions about 'Fast and Furious' first ..... :steamed:

.

snerd
12-15-2012, 15:02
Media Sets Gun Control Narrative, Shuts Down Mental Health Debate
Not only are CNN and Soledad making sure Rep. Bono Mack pays a heavy price every time she brings up a solution inconvenient to their agenda (mental health, air marshals); they're also sending a not-too-subtle message to others that this is not what we are going to talk about. In other words, anyone who dares talk about anything other than gun control is going to get publicly whack-a-moled.

You've been warned, conservatives!

Like Rep. Nadler (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/15/Dem-Lawmaker-Obama-Must-Exploit-School-Shooting) and every other leftist in the country, CNN wants to make our country less safe through the taking of guns, because the overall goal is the same: to make us less self-reliant and more dependent on the government for everything -- including our own personal safety and our ability to protect our loved ones.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/12/15/Media-Sets-Gun-control-narrative

snerd
12-15-2012, 15:04
Bloomberg: Obama Must Take 'Immediate Action' Against Guns
With all the carnage from gun violence in our country, it’s still almost impossible to believe that a mass shooting in a kindergarten class could happen. It has come to that. Not even kindergarteners learning their A,B,Cs are safe. We heard after Columbine that it was too soon to talk about gun laws. We heard it after Virginia Tech. After Tucson and Aurora and Oak Creek. And now we are hearing it again. For every day we wait, 34 more people are murdered with guns. Today, many of them were five-year olds. President Obama rightly sent his heartfelt condolences to the families in Newtown. But the country needs him to send a bill to Congress to fix this problem. Calling for ‘meaningful action’ is not enough. We need immediate action. We have heard all the rhetoric before. What we have not seen is leadership – not from the White House and not from Congress. That must end today. This is a national tragedy and it demands a national response. My deepest sympathies are with the families of all those affected, and my determination to stop this madness is stronger than ever.http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/14/Bloomberg-politicizes-shooting

Yeah, that's the way we do things now. Immediately. No discussion. No hearings. No reason involved, just raw emotion. Issue another decree, o great messiah. Save us from ourselves.

concretefuzzynuts
12-15-2012, 15:08
Gun Control - Watch What Happens When Guns Are Banned. - YouTube

snerd
12-15-2012, 15:08
'Political Capital': NBC News Leaps To Exploit School Shooting

In the wake of recent shootings, from Aurora (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/07/aurora-police-chief-cautions-journalists-129608.html) to Kansas City (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/12/bob-costas-speaks-for-gun-control-150891.html), many have argued that it is not the time to talk about gun control.

But as the death toll from today's tragic shooting in Netwown, Conn., was rising, MSNBC and others in the media spurned that familiar refrain.

MSNBC’s Alex Wagner said the elementary school shooting will hopefully offer “some political capital” to reform gun laws.

“It is hopefully — we say this every single time we cover one of these things — a line in the sand,” Wagner said. “There has got to be some kind of measurable change, some kind of reaction. One would hope that there will be some political capital to reform the way in which we handle gun and gun violence in this country.”

Throughout the show, Wagner and her panel discussed gun violence and gun control. MSNBC contributor and Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart added shortly after Wagner's comments that if Friday’s violence “doesn’t sear the consciousness of political leaders from the president on down, I don’t know what will.”

On "Andrea Mitchell Reports," NBC's David Gregory noted that “the politics have stalled" on the issue.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/12/14/MSNBC-Leaps-To-Politicize-Shootings

snerd
12-15-2012, 15:18
Gun Control: Piers Morgan Wants To Eviscerate The 2nd Amendment
“Only way forward for America is a national gun policy, same (much tougher) laws for everyone. No assault weapons for civilians, period,” Morgan wrote, before following it up by laying out a plan to disarm the American public. Morgan called for a “minimum 3 references” and “detailed vetting over 6-8 weeks.” He also claimed that no one under 25 should have a gun, and neither should “ANYONE with ANY mental health history whatsoever.” Morgan finishes by stating that “No American needs more than one firearm at home to protect themselves under 2nd Amendment.”http://marketdailynews.com/2012/12/14/gun-control-piers-morgan-wants-to-eviscerate-the-2nd-amendment/

snerd
12-15-2012, 15:20
Willie Nelson: "A lot of guns ... there's no need for civilians to own those ... those are for military"
Two weeks removed from the 2012 general election, Nelson admits that he didn't make it to the polls, but is happy with the choice America made:

"I'm glad he [Barack Obama] got reelected. I think he has a lot of things in his favor the things that he has ran on. The women all believe in the things that he's talking about. The blacks and the Hispanics and the women. And if you've got those three things on your side, you're going to win," says the author of "Roll Me Up and Smoke Me When I Die." "I really felt like Obama was going to win, that he didn't really need one more vote, that he had already had it sewn up."
http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/26/willie-nelson-on-the-arms-debate-a-lot-of-guns-theres-no-need-for-civilians-to-own-those-those-are-for-military/?hpt=pm_t2

Drilled
12-15-2012, 15:34
Politicians stay out of our lives!

Kirishiac
12-15-2012, 15:42
I don't know if an AWB is coming, because it would have to get through the House of reps too. Something does need to be done, because with the general status/attitude/dividedness of the country some unstable people will likely continue to commit violence. I would rather the republicans make some clear mental health laws of what can/can't be done to patients who have access to weapons than be forced into severe gun restrictions when another tragedy happens and nothing was done.


Does Ex post facto legislation protect us as gun owners in anyway?

Jeff82
12-15-2012, 15:55
That school was already a gun free zone. How's that workin' out for ya?

muscogee
12-15-2012, 17:09
National news became propaganda yesterday. I quit watching. Currently I'm reduced to watching old zombie movies.

Ruble Noon
12-15-2012, 17:13
anyone willing to politicize this tragedy for either side, for any purpose should be electrocuted.....

yes, i mean that.

The leftist's started before the bodies hit the floor.

i agree with you though.

Snowman92D
12-15-2012, 17:18
That school was already a gun free zone. How's that workin' out for ya?

Legislation must be passed to hold those who mandate 'gun free zones' legally and financially responsible for failing to protect those they have compelled to disarm.

THAT's the legislation we should be talking about.

Flintlocker
12-15-2012, 17:31
So, what's the solution? Arming teachers in schools? How should they carry? Concealed or open? What happens when something goes wrong like when a teacher leaves the gun in a desk or a student attacks and disarms the teacher? And what happened to your opinion of teachers- don't you largely consider them overpaid and incompetent?

snerd
12-15-2012, 17:37
National news became propaganda yesterday. I quit watching. Currently I'm reduced to watching old zombie movies.
I'm opting for the home shopping channels. Finishing up some Christmas shopping.

beforeobamabans
12-15-2012, 17:48
The CT Medical Examiner has stated that all the victims were shot more than once and that everyone was shot with the "assault" rifle. That about guarantees a new AWB.

Kirishiac
12-15-2012, 19:07
does anyone know what guns were used?

jakebrake
12-15-2012, 19:10
National news became propaganda yesterday. I quit watching. Currently I'm reduced to watching old zombie movies.

what channel?

at the moment wipeout is on tru t.v.

hogfish
12-15-2012, 19:41
anyone willing to politicize this tragedy for either side, for any purpose should be electrocuted.....

yes, i mean that.

The Left is using it to argue for gun control, and the Right is using it bring more God into government. :yawn:

jakebrake
12-15-2012, 19:45
The Left is using it to argue for gun control, and the Right is using it bring more God into government. :yawn:


neither side, should be using this to further any agenda. period. end of statement.

and **** anyone that feels now is the time. don't care what the agenda. gun grabbers, bible thumpers. doesn't matter.

evlbruce
12-15-2012, 20:13
When has it not been? There's always a media circus to national tragedy, may as well have a couple of hawkers selling policy.

sbhaven
12-15-2012, 20:50
The CT Medical Examiner has stated that all the victims were shot more than once and that everyone was shot with the "assault" rifle. That about guarantees a new AWB.
CT already HAS an assault weapons ban (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm). :whistling:

If anything is proposed it will be worse than CT's current AWB or the previous sunsetted federal AWB.

gunowner1
12-15-2012, 21:00
Quick questions for those of you who are more politically adept than I am. Would the individual states be able to still have laws that go against the Feds? If Florida decides not to enforce a new AWB would they get away with it?

jakebrake
12-15-2012, 21:10
does anyone know what guns were used?

a glock and a sig.

muscogee
12-15-2012, 21:39
So, what's the solution? Arming teachers in schools? How should they carry? Concealed or open? What happens when something goes wrong like when a teacher leaves the gun in a desk or a student attacks and disarms the teacher? And what happened to your opinion of teachers- don't you largely consider them overpaid and incompetent?

Posted in another thread. http://ht.ly/g7IhD

muscogee
12-15-2012, 21:43
a glock and a sig.

And an AR 15, M4 or Bushwhacker, depending on who you listen to.

hogfish
12-15-2012, 21:44
Quick questions for those of you who are more politically adept than I am. Would the individual states be able to still have laws that go against the Feds? If Florida decides not to enforce a new AWB would they get away with it?

AFAIK, Federal trumps State. With restrictions, State may restrict more. :dunno:

Gunnut 45/454
12-15-2012, 22:06
Flintlocker
The solution is for you anti-gun folks to migrate to GB, Aussy, or some other country that doesn't allow guns! Then we Americans will clean out the criminals by actually EXECUTING THEM ie actually enforcing the death penalty!! You ******* have created these gun free zones and yet people are still deing! The school shooting was committed by a criminal- he murdered an stole the firearms used! I agree with the above post! The legistlators and public entities that create these "gun free zones' must be held accountable for the security of the public inside these areas! Any crime that happens inside those area's they must be sued into oblivion for allowing it!:steamed:

QNman
12-15-2012, 22:39
Posted in another thread. http://ht.ly/g7IhD

I am in serious jeopardy of beginning to like you.... :supergrin:

Seriously, we don't see eye to eye on a lot. But we are in full agreement on this issue.

:cheers:

jakebrake
12-15-2012, 22:41
And an AR 15, M4 or Bushwhacker, depending on who you listen to.

the bushwacker model 223, or ak 15, or the obvious ak47 was left in the car.

all done with a glock and a sig.

Flintlocker
12-16-2012, 00:16
Posted in another thread. http://ht.ly/g7IhD

Interesting but Ayoob overlooks a major point: Israeli gun laws. These laws are very strict.

It is forbidden in Israel to own any kind of firearm, including air pistols and rifles, without a firearms license. Israel Defense Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces) officers honorably discharged with the rank of non-commissioned officer, reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander, ex-special forces enlisted men, retired police officers with the rank of sergeant, retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander, licensed public transportation drivers transporting a minimum of five people, and full-time dealers of jewellery or large sums of cash or valuables, Civil Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Guard_%28Israel%29) volunteers, and residents of militarily strategic buffer zones considered essential to state security are eligible for licenses allowing them to possess one handgun. Reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander are also eligible for licences allowing them to possess one rifle. Licensed hunters may possess one shotgun, and licensed animal-control officers are allowed to possess two rifles. Civil Guard snipers may possess one rifle. To legally own a gun as a souvenir, prize, inheritance, or award of appreciation from the military, an individual must first present proper documentation that they are about to receive it. Permits for gun collectors are extremely rare, and typically only given to ex-high-ranking officers. To obtain a gun license, an applicant must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, have no criminal record, be in good health, have no history of mental illness, pass a weapons-training course, and be over a certain age (20 for women who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 21 for men who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 for those who did not complete military service or civil service equivalent, 45 for residents of East Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem)). Gun licenses must be renewed every three years. Firearms permits are given only for personal use, not for business in the firearms sale. Permit holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges.Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Israel

These laws would have, in all likelihood, legally stopped Lanza's mother from owning the guns that Adam Lanza stole. These laws also would have made it much more difficult or impossible for Loughner, Holmes, Cho and virtually other mass killer of the past 20 years to own firearms of any sort.

So if you're looking for the example in Israel, don't look at their Civil Guard, look at their gun control laws.

muscogee
12-16-2012, 07:54
Interesting but Ayoob overlooks a major point: Israeli gun laws. These laws are very strict.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Israel

These laws would have, in all likelihood, legally stopped Lanza's mother from owning the guns that Adam Lanza stole. These laws also would have made it much more difficult or impossible for Loughner, Holmes, Cho and virtually other mass killer of the past 20 years to own firearms of any sort.

So if you're looking for the example in Israel, don't look at their Civil Guard, look at their gun control laws.

We don't have to do everything Israel does. I see no evidence the laws you mention would make it impossible for a mass murder to commit mass murder. That's a pipe dream. Samson killed 40 PHilistines with the jawbone of an ass.

Cavalry Doc
12-16-2012, 08:18
So, what's the solution? Arming teachers in schools? How should they carry? Concealed or open? What happens when something goes wrong like when a teacher leaves the gun in a desk or a student attacks and disarms the teacher? And what happened to your opinion of teachers- don't you largely consider them overpaid and incompetent?

Teachers are professional teachers. If you want to stop this sort of thing, you need to hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus.

Maybe some would be adequate at aiding in a proactive defense, but I would bet most aren't. Teachers should be trained to close the large bars on their doors to prevent entry into their classrooms, and where the safest place to huddle is in the room.

The only real solution when some nutcase decides to shoot up kids, is making it impossible for him to reach them.

Instead, expect an AWB without a grandfather clause, increasing taxes, increasing red tape, even heard one proposal to make all semi-auto's class III weapons.


So, I have to ask, think Barry will be going for gun control now? Aren't you happy he won?

Cavalry Doc
12-16-2012, 08:22
CT already HAS an assault weapons ban (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm). :whistling:

If anything is proposed it will be worse than CT's current AWB or the previous sunsetted federal AWB.

That is not being talked about much.

No gun signs and rules do not stop maniacs, physical security does.

cowboywannabe
12-16-2012, 08:28
law suit against the school district/city for failure to protect those children.

QNman
12-16-2012, 09:17
That is not being talked about much.

No gun signs and rules do not stop maniacs, physical security does.

I have begun sharing this with anti's I know who (of course) immediately jumped to making ALL handguns illegal. Most do not like the idea of armed security, but I was surprised at the number who were willing to discuss it as a possibility.

I also pointed out that NO gun law would have prevented this tragedy, as this person never bought or owned the guns in question - he stole them - from his mother, who was the first victim.

Sam hit it on the head earlier in this thread. We need to stop playing defense with just stating why we won't tolerate more gun laws and put this one into perspective for those who just jump to the immediate conclusion that if only guns were harder (or impossible) to get, this wouldn't have happened. We need to play offense (in an unoffending manner) and fast.

Armed security within a school is certainly a reasonable suggestion. A plainclothes cop posted at this school may have made all the difference in the world.

Allowing teachers with a CCW and additional training would be a great step too - but somehow making this a requirement is folly. Many teachers are left of center, and would have great objections to this.

QNman
12-16-2012, 09:18
Quick questions for those of you who are more politically adept than I am. Would the individual states be able to still have laws that go against the Feds? If Florida decides not to enforce a new AWB would they get away with it?

Seems to work with weed possession in places like Colorado...

Ruble Noon
12-16-2012, 09:27
Teachers are professional teachers. If you want to stop this sort of thing, you need to hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus.

Maybe some would be adequate at aiding in a proactive defense, but I would bet most aren't. Teachers should be trained to close the large bars on their doors to prevent entry into their classrooms, and where the safest place to huddle is in the room.

The only real solution when some nutcase decides to shoot up kids, is making it impossible for him to reach them.

Instead, expect an AWB without a grandfather clause, increasing taxes, increasing red tape, even heard one proposal to make all semi-auto's class III weapons.


So, I have to ask, think Barry will be going for gun control now? Aren't you happy he won?

I know several teachers that are proficient with firearms, have their carry permits and would like to carry on campus but the state wants these people and the children they teach to remain potential victims.
Force being met with force is what stops these killers and for this to happen the people that so choose need to have their tools of force on hand.

Cavalry Doc
12-16-2012, 09:40
I know several teachers that are proficient with firearms, have their carry permits and would like to carry on campus but the state wants these people and the children they teach to remain potential victims.
Force being met with force is what stops these killers and for this to happen the people that so choose need to have their tools of force on hand.

I'm sure that no politician will be very successful in getting teacher carry rights passed on campus. Not anytime soon anyway. It would be refreshing to see someone try.

Fort hood is still a gun free zone. If you can't trust soldiers that have legal CHL's, who can you trust?

The world is what it is. I have no faith that common sense and workable solutions will be implemented.

Cambo
12-16-2012, 09:50
Let's put it out there Flintlocker, what gun control would you like to see? Don't ignore this, I want to know.

Ruble Noon
12-16-2012, 09:55
I'm sure that no politician will be very successful in getting teacher carry rights passed on campus. Not anytime soon anyway. It would be refreshing to see someone try.

Fort hood is still a gun free zone. If you can't trust soldiers that have legal CHL's, who can you trust?

The world is what it is. I have no faith that common sense and workable solutions will be implemented.

I know. They would rather have the police investigate after the fact rather than have someone with the capability of stopping or minimizing the carnage. Hell, my son can't even carry a pocket knife to school. I always carried one and even had a couple of teachers borrow it to open a package. My step dad took his gun to school during hunting season as did most of the boys in his class as they hunted on the way to and from school. When they got to school they unloaded them and stacked them in the closet until it was time to leave.

Gunnut 45/454
12-16-2012, 10:00
Flintlocker
So your for not allowing anyone to own a firearm that hasn't served in the military or is a ex-cop! I guess you need to turn your guns in cause I'm sure you never served and your certainly not a cop. Since only 10% of American have served in the military and are a cop or ex-cops then 90% of Americans can't be allowed to own or carry! Remember Isreal has MANDATORY service requirement of two years! So 90% or better of there population has been trained and are allowed to carry/own a firearm! :rofl:

QNman
12-16-2012, 10:02
I know. They would rather have the police investigate after the fact rather than have someone with the capability of stopping or minimizing the carnage. Hell, my son can't even carry a pocket knife to school. I always carried one and even had a couple of teachers borrow it to open a package. My step dad took his gun to school during hunting season as did most of the boys in his class as they hunted on the way to and from school. When they got to school they unloaded them and stacked them in the closet until it was time to leave.

I am sorry to say... That America is long dead. Hell, very few kids hunt anymore. Most think meat comes from the grocery store.

mj9mm
12-16-2012, 10:06
That school was already a gun free zone. How's that workin' out for ya?

:agree: the feel good society comes up with pretty little signs

mj9mm
12-16-2012, 10:08
I know several teachers that are proficient with firearms, have their carry permits and would like to carry on campus but the state wants these people and the children they teach to remain potential victims.
Force being met with force is what stops these killers and for this to happen the people that so choose need to have their tools of force on hand.

this should be a logical answer to the problem, but liberals don't think logically, they overthink a problem right to the point of being mush.

steveksux
12-16-2012, 10:09
anyone willing to politicize this tragedy for either side, for any purpose should be electrocuted.....

yes, i mean that.The Left is using it to argue for gun control, and the Right is using it bring more God into government. :yawn:

neither side, should be using this to further any agenda. period. end of statement.

and **** anyone that feels now is the time. don't care what the agenda. gun grabbers, bible thumpers. doesn't matter.Bingo, couldn't have said it better myself.


That school was already a gun free zone. How's that workin' out for ya?


CT already HAS an assault weapons ban (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm). :whistling:

If anything is proposed it will be worse than CT's current AWB or the previous sunsetted federal AWB.Again, QFT, QED, checkmate, asked and answered. An AWB clearly wouldn't have prevented this because CT had precisely that, in order to prevent precisely this sort of tragedy. They even went so far as to outlaw murder just in case the AWB wasn't enough. Obviously AWB, and any law for that matter, are not magical talismans that prevent the lawless or simply madmen from committing mayhem. End of story. We should be banging this drum louder and louder as the anti gunners start waving the bloody flag.

a glock and a sig.

And an AR 15, M4 or Bushwhacker, depending on who you listen to.Correct, from what I read, an AR was also used.

We don't have to do everything Israel does. I see no evidence the laws you mention would make it impossible for a mass murder to commit mass murder. That's a pipe dream. Samson killed 40 PHilistines with the jawbone of an ass.Maybe we should send Huckabee to Afghanistan along with the Dem referenced in the OP's article... :rofl: Double the jawbones, double the firepower. He's one of the first major (*******) political figures on the right to wave the bloody flag to promote his pet agenda. He's as bad as anyone on the left doing the same to promote gun control.

Randy

steveksux
12-16-2012, 10:29
Gun bans clearly won't work, but I'm not also very hopeful that armed teachers would work either. Anyone really think that these professional teachers (who can't teach little Johnny to read at grade level) will be very effective as amateur SWAT commandos armed with a handgun and no body armor against a crazed gunman with an AK or an AR? You better post retired SEALs at the schools if you expect good results if your plan is deploying handguns vs rifles.

I suppose the teacher will shoot less innocent people by accident than the gunman will on purpose, and he will likely slow down the gunman for a few minutes before getting mowed down, so its not a total loss.

I don't see the schools arming teachers with assault rifles to even the odds.

Somehow I don't see teachers signing up for essentially a suicide mission.

The best you can hope for in that plan is to slow down the gunman momentarily, before the teacher gets mowed down. Most of these gunmen kill themselves eventually when cornered, so there even may be some cases where the gunman mistakes the lone teacher for a superior force and decides to end it.

Real security takes real professionals with real training and real weapons. That takes real money, which isn't going to be budgeted. The alternative is half assed alternatives which will yield half assed results. Unfortunately that is the reality we will be facing in the days and years to come.

Randy

steveksux
12-16-2012, 10:37
Most think meat comes from the grocery store.Yeah, we were talking about where to go for our holiday lunch at work, someone suggested to make sure there was a vegetarian option.

I said I didn't think that was a good idea. I'm not hungry enough to eat a whole vegetarian by myself, and besides, what would the vegetarians in the office eat?

Randy

kirgi08
12-16-2012, 10:46
Teachers are professional teachers. If you want to stop this sort of thing, you need to hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus.

Ayep.

Maybe some would be adequate at aiding in a proactive defense, but I would bet most aren't. Teachers should be trained to close the large bars on their doors to prevent entry into their classrooms, and where the safest place to huddle is in the room.

The only real solution when some nutcase decides to shoot up kids, is making it impossible for him to reach them.

Instead, expect an AWB without a grandfather clause, increasing taxes, increasing red tape, even heard one proposal to make all semi-auto's class III weapons.


So, I have to ask, think Barry will be going for gun control now? Aren't you happy he won?

Ayep and No.

That is not being talked about much.

No gun signs and rules do not stop maniacs, physical security does.

Granted,however in this touchie/feely society PC wins the day.

law suit against the school district/city for failure to protect those children.

Ayep,even if those touchie-feelie types don't understand the facts that views and sloth are what leads ta these type of incidents.

Seems to work with weed possession in places like Colorado...

A wee bit broad my friend.

I know several teachers that are proficient with firearms, have their carry permits and would like to carry on campus but the state wants these people and the children they teach to remain potential victims.
Force being met with force is what stops these killers and for this to happen the people that so choose need to have their tools of force on hand.

This nation should follow Israeli policy on this.

I'm sure that no politician will be very successful in getting teacher carry rights passed on campus. Not anytime soon anyway. It would be refreshing to see someone try.

:sad:

Fort hood is still a gun free zone. If you can't trust soldiers that have legal CHL's, who can you trust?

Every US soldier,no matter the post should be armed 24/7.Fort Hood should be an example.

The world is what it is. I have no faith that common sense and workable solutions will be implemented.

You Sir are correct,the PC chiggers are stuck deep.

I am sorry to say... That America is long dead. Hell, very few kids hunt anymore. Most think meat comes from the grocery store.

I ain't ready ta quit yet,we ain't dead yet.We hunt/fish/garden and barter.We are passing it on ta our children.

We are however in a maelstrom.'08.

hogfish
12-16-2012, 11:48
Teachers are professional teachers. If you want to stop this sort of thing, you need to hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus.

Maybe some would be adequate at aiding in a proactive defense, but I would bet most aren't. Teachers should be trained to close the large bars on their doors to prevent entry into their classrooms, and where the safest place to huddle is in the room.

The only real solution when some nutcase decides to shoot up kids, is making it impossible for him to reach them.

Instead, expect an AWB without a grandfather clause, increasing taxes, increasing red tape, even heard one proposal to make all semi-auto's class III weapons.


So, I have to ask, think Barry will be going for gun control now? Aren't you happy he won?

If we're not going to allow teachers to carry, I guess we must expect to pay higher taxes to "hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus."

kirgi08
12-16-2012, 12:15
We got plenty of Vets that need a job.'08.

Cavalry Doc
12-16-2012, 12:25
If we're not going to allow teachers to carry, I guess we must expect to pay higher taxes to "hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus."

I'm not opposed to allowing proficient and willing teachers to carry. But that doesn't stop things from happening. Layered physical security does, large bars on classroom doors offer bullet resistant closure. Fire doors could be made to lock when activated offering area sequestration. Single controlled entrances to the building, bullet resistant locks. Maybe getting buzzed in has you walk through a metal detector, and you would still need to be buzzed through a second door to gain entry to the building. This area should have armed overwatch, capable of repelling an armed invader. Controlled entrance to the parking lot, Log in and Log out at the guard shack, guard shack is also overwatched by armed personnel with capability to engage threats at a distance, and if I had my way, with weapons capable of stopping a vehicle with an engine compartment strike.

Arm the teachers. That's OK with me. But it is not enough if you want to really stop this.


Yep, that will cost money. Nothing is ever free.

QNman
12-16-2012, 13:50
A wee bit broad my friend...

Was intended tongue in cheek... should have added a smiley.

:tongueout:

QNman
12-16-2012, 13:51
If we're not going to allow teachers to carry, I guess we must expect to pay higher taxes to "hire people that are dedicated to layered physical security and defense of the campus."

That's actually a tax I would vote for.

kirgi08
12-16-2012, 14:10
Was intended tongue in cheek... should have added a smiley.

:tongueout:

:miff: :impatient:

n00bs.'08. :sad:

hogfish
12-16-2012, 15:36
I'm not opposed to allowing proficient and willing teachers to carry. But that doesn't stop things from happening. Layered physical security does, large bars on classroom doors offer bullet resistant closure. Fire doors could be made to lock when activated offering area sequestration. Single controlled entrances to the building, bullet resistant locks. Maybe getting buzzed in has you walk through a metal detector, and you would still need to be buzzed through a second door to gain entry to the building. This area should have armed overwatch, capable of repelling an armed invader. Controlled entrance to the parking lot, Log in and Log out at the guard shack, guard shack is also overwatched by armed personnel with capability to engage threats at a distance, and if I had my way, with weapons capable of stopping a vehicle with an engine compartment strike.

Arm the teachers. That's OK with me. But it is not enough if you want to really stop this.


Yep, that will cost money. Nothing is ever free.

Good. It just 'sounded' like the tipical polititian's answer of: 'It doesn't go far enough, so I'm against it'. :)

Cavalry Doc
12-16-2012, 16:06
Good. It just 'sounded' like the tipical polititian's answer of: 'It doesn't go far enough, so I'm against it'. :)

Oh, trust me, I believe in layers. An 85% solution today beats the hell out of a 100% solution tomorrow, after something bad has happened.

The easy and quick stuff should start right now. Physical bars on classrooms, so that they can be barred from the inside. They can be cheap, but should be bullet resistant designs. I can imagine a few.

Then hire the guards, train them in hostage negotiation and rescue, CQB, and trauma management. They should be a cross between a paramedic, security guard, and FBI HRT member. This may be prejudiced, but psychologically stable recent Veterans seem perfect for this kind of mission.

Then put up the fences, guard shacks, evaluate potential off campus sniper sites and plan counters. Keep building until it seems impenetrable, but never stop planning. I'd have a team that is well trained at breaching hard targets evaluate the physical security as an accreditation exam.

Kids. I really hate seeing kids hurt. I have the images of several children that I have cared for in the past that I will never forget. That does not shut me down, it makes me motivated to protect them.

hogfish
12-16-2012, 17:07
Oh, trust me, I believe in layers. An 85% solution today beats the hell out of a 100% solution tomorrow, after something bad has happened.

The easy and quick stuff should start right now. Physical bars on classrooms, so that they can be barred from the inside. They can be cheap, but should be bullet resistant designs. I can imagine a few.

Then hire the guards, train them in hostage negotiation and rescue, CQB, and trauma management. They should be a cross between a paramedic, security guard, and FBI HRT member. This may be prejudiced, but psychologically stable recent Veterans seem perfect for this kind of mission.

Then put up the fences, guard shacks, evaluate potential off campus sniper sites and plan counters. Keep building until it seems impenetrable, but never stop planning. I'd have a team that is well trained at breaching hard targets evaluate the physical security as an accreditation exam.

Kids. I really hate seeing kids hurt. I have the images of several children that I have cared for in the past that I will never forget. That does not shut me down, it makes me motivated to protect them.

Sounds good. It would be great if active duty personel could be trained to do this. :wavey:

Drjones
12-16-2012, 20:59
neither side, should be using this to further any agenda. period. end of statement.

and **** anyone that feels now is the time. don't care what the agenda. gun grabbers, bible thumpers. doesn't matter.


That's a noble sentiment, but it's also akin to not voting because you don't 120% agree with either candidate; one is going to win, regardless.

You can either sit on the sidelines and watch a new ban pass, or you can start pressuring lawmakers to resist the hysteria.

Feinstein already has a new ban drafted, we need to start writing letters NOW.

Drjones
12-16-2012, 21:00
Oh, trust me, I believe in layers. An 85% solution today beats the hell out of a 100% solution tomorrow, after something bad has happened.

The easy and quick stuff should start right now. Physical bars on classrooms, so that they can be barred from the inside. They can be cheap, but should be bullet resistant designs. I can imagine a few.

Then hire the guards, train them in hostage negotiation and rescue, CQB, and trauma management. They should be a cross between a paramedic, security guard, and FBI HRT member. This may be prejudiced, but psychologically stable recent Veterans seem perfect for this kind of mission.

Then put up the fences, guard shacks, evaluate potential off campus sniper sites and plan counters. Keep building until it seems impenetrable, but never stop planning. I'd have a team that is well trained at breaching hard targets evaluate the physical security as an accreditation exam.

Kids. I really hate seeing kids hurt. I have the images of several children that I have cared for in the past that I will never forget. That does not shut me down, it makes me motivated to protect them.



You seriously want to - literally - turn our public schools into prisons?

Cavalry Doc
12-17-2012, 07:34
You seriously want to - literally - turn our public schools into prisons?

Not prisons. Prisons are designed to keep bad guys in, this is to keep bad guys OUT.

My kids had a lot of close contact with equipment that was deployed around our home, on their busses, and in their school. M16's, roving guards, M9 paladins, gun trucks, and they are well adjusted.

Do you want to stop this from happening again or not? If not physical security improvements, what ideas do you have.

ModGlock17
12-17-2012, 07:39
anyone willing to politicize this tragedy for either side, for any purpose should be electrocuted.....

yes, i mean that.

Guns, on the wrong hands, will kill.

Executive power, on the wrong hands, will kill.

Kool-aid, on the wrong hands, will kill. (Jonestown)

Religion, on the wrong hands, will kill.

This stuff doesn't know gender, political parties.

ModGlock17
12-17-2012, 07:44
And an AR 15, M4 or Bushwhacker, depending on who you listen to.

I believe the question was "which guns were used" ?

The Bushwhacker was in the car.

ModGlock17
12-17-2012, 07:49
Here's an opportunity for the partisan president to:

1. make Reps sound like an anti-children group, if they were to oppose any ban he proposed. Trust me, history shows he wouldn't miss this chance.

2. RE-CLASSIFY semi-automatics handguns as Assault Weapon, and ban them without Rep Congress (dare the Rep to reverse it!).

sbhaven
12-17-2012, 09:00
I believe the question was "which guns were used" ?

The Bushwhacker was in the car.
No. Reports (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/nyregion/sandy-hook-school-shooting-in-newtown.html?_r=0) since yesterday are that a shotgun, some are saying it was either a Benelli or Saiga, was found in the car. There is video of it, below, and you can clearly see a shotgun shell being ejected.

The CT medical examiner has stated (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/15/15932666-conn-school-massacre-victims-all-shot-multiple-times-chief-medical-officer-says?lite), two days ago, that all were shot multiple times with a rifle. Reports are now that a Glock 10mm, Sig 9mm and the Bushmaster AR were found in the school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc

jeanderson
12-17-2012, 09:12
CT already HAS an assault weapons ban (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm). :whistling:

If anything is proposed it will be worse than CT's current AWB or the previous sunsetted federal AWB.
A great point... that will be completely overlooked in the upcoming AWB debate in Congress.

The coming AWB will do nothing to deter crazies like this.

sbhaven
12-17-2012, 10:25
A great point... that will be completely overlooked in the upcoming AWB debate in Congress.

The coming AWB will do nothing to deter crazies like this.
There are of course many issues overlooked and or ignored, by those who are calling for more gun control. There were a whole slew of existing state firearm statutes that were violated before and during the murder spree.

Obviously the first is CT's AWB (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm). Then there is the CT statute that limits people under 21 (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap529.htm#Sec29-34.htm) using or possessing handguns. Then there is no weapons on school grounds (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap952.htm#Sec53a-217b.htm) issue. The fact that one needs to be 21 to obtain a pistol permit (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap529.htm#Sec29-28.htm) and that you cannot legally carry a handgun (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap529.htm#Sec29-35.htm) without that permit. That stealing firearms (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap952.htm#Sec53a-212.htm) is a felony. As is general criminal use (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap952.htm#Sec53a-216.htm) of a firearm. That transporting a loaded firearm in a vehicle (http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/Chap529.htm#Sec29-38.htm) is illegal. That murder is illegal (various state statutes (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap952.htm) on murder, manslaughter, assault). CT is ranked #5 (http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/stateleg/scorecard/2011/2011_Brady_Campaign_State_Scorecard_Rankings.pdf) behind NY, MA, NJ an CA in gun control laws according to the Brady bunch.

Upwards of 40+ state firearm laws alone were violated by the murderer before and during his rampage. The liberal solution? More laws limiting and or banning access to firearms...
http://granitegrok.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/liberal-logic-101-TavisSmiley.jpg

All their talk of a gun ban will do is cause another run on AR, AK, Glock, Sig, shotguns, magazines, and a host of other firearms and their accessories. Even if a ban is passed there will be 10's of thousands more firearms and their accessories sold before the ban takes effect that will be added to the 10's of millions of existing firearms already in the hands of the citizens.