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smokin762
12-17-2012, 19:07
I want to reload some Plated 230gr. RN .45 ACP Bullets. I have Accurate No. 5 Powder and No. 7 Powder. I can't find any information for Plated bullets in the Accurate manual. I'm not sure if I should use the Lead Bullet information or not.

I bought the pack of Bullets at the Gun Show. They are labeled Frontier Bullets .45 ACP 230gr. TCJ.

The TCJ Bullet is not in the link from the Manufacture though. Maybe I'm missing it.:dunno:

http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/

Firecop203
12-17-2012, 20:12
You probably won't find any data for Plated bullets. Load them to the same specs as Lead bullets.

SARDG
12-17-2012, 21:39
I want to reload some Plated 230gr. RN .45 ACP Bullets...

I bought the pack of Bullets at the Gun Show...
I take it you hadn't read the many posts on GTR of ALL the caveats of new reloaders loading plated bullets - only one of which is that no data is available.

F106 Fan
12-17-2012, 21:59
Go to the bullet manufacturer's web site. You will find that you can load as high as mid-range for jacketed bullets as long as you stay under 1200 fps. But go read it for yourself, it's your gun that will be shooting the things, not mine!

Pay attention to what SARDG posted. Plated bullets are a PITA because the jacket is fragile, load data is nonexistent and they aren't cheaper than Precision Delta jacketed bullets.

In short, give them a pass...

Richard

smokin762
12-17-2012, 22:07
Go to the bullet manufacturer's web site. You will find that you can load as high as mid-range for jacketed bullets as long as you stay under 1200 fps. But go read it for yourself, it's your gun that will be shooting the things, not mine!

Pay attention to what SARDG posted. Plated bullets are a PITA because the jacket is fragile, load data is nonexistent and they aren't cheaper than Precision Delta jacketed bullets.

In short, give them a pass...

Richard

I bought 300 rounds of them. They were $15.00 per 100. I just wanted to try them. Would I be better off just buying lead until I get casting equipment?

F106 Fan
12-17-2012, 23:23
I bought 300 rounds of them. They were $15.00 per 100. I just wanted to try them. Would I be better off just buying lead until I get casting equipment?

You didn't say which gun you were using. There is a raging debate about using lead bullets in Glock barrels. You will find people who routinely change out the barrel to something like a KKM and other who have shot hard cast lead for years through the factory barrel.

I bought the KKM...

You can load up the plated bullets but keep the loading below mid-range for a similar jacketed bullet. When they are gone, go forth and sin no more!

Be very careful of your taper crimp. Don't crease the bullet. Make sure your load is moderate and the velocity below 1200 fps.

The vast majority of my reloads are lead. I am buying S&S casting and have used Bear Creek bullets. Both are excellent and neither seemed to foul my Glock barrel. But I still changed barrels...

I don't shoot my Glock very often but I still wanted to be able to shoot lead without worrying about cleaning the barrel mid-day.

Richard

fredj338
12-17-2012, 23:54
I bought 300 rounds of them. They were $15.00 per 100. I just wanted to try them. Would I be better off just buying lead until I get casting equipment?

Certainly not a bargain.:wow: Actual jacketed bullets from PD for $13.20/100, but ya gotta buy 2000 to get that price.
Load them as a lead bullet. Be careful to not over crimp. Then don't buy anymore, you actually got gunshow smacked at that price. Gotta shop better.:dunno:
http://www.precisiondelta.com/product.php
http://www.tjconevera.com/x4523rnplbu1.html
http://store.affordablebrassandbullets.com/catalog/product/2fe220783b43d7a86242ae6290ba1c68

smokin762
12-18-2012, 00:12
You didn't say which gun you were using. There is a raging debate about using lead bullets in Glock barrels. You will find people who routinely change out the barrel to something like a KKM and other who have shot hard cast lead for years through the factory barrel.

I bought the KKM...

You can load up the plated bullets but keep the loading below mid-range for a similar jacketed bullet. When they are gone, go forth and sin no more!

Be very careful of your taper crimp. Don't crease the bullet. Make sure your load is moderate and the velocity below 1200 fps.

The vast majority of my reloads are lead. I am buying S&S casting and have used Bear Creek bullets. Both are excellent and neither seemed to foul my Glock barrel. But I still changed barrels...

I don't shoot my Glock very often but I still wanted to be able to shoot lead without worrying about cleaning the barrel mid-day.

Richard

I put KKM barrels in all my Glocks a few years ago. Recently, I bought a Glock 36. I checked KKMís site, they donít have a barrel for it.

I intend to use lead in all my handguns. I would really like to use lead in my 16Ē AR 9mm but I donít know if that would be a problem, so I will wait on that until I have read something that shows itís okay first. Then Iíll still be hesitant about it.

For now, I want to use lead in my G30 and G36.

The Accurate manual states with a 5Ē barrel for AA#5.

230gr. RNFMJ start load 7.8gr. of 816 fps with a Max of 8.7gr. at 927 fps. C.O.L of 1.250Ē.

230gr. Lead Bullet start load of 7.7gr. of 852 fps with a Max load of 8.5gr. at 968 fps. C.O.L. of 1.230Ē.

With the different lengths, it seems a little confusing. I just donít know if it would be safe to go by the Lead Data and use the 1.250Ē length. I know that length chambers fine in both of my Glocks.

SARDG
12-18-2012, 08:35
I tend to look at reloading as less of an experiment and exercise in mixed futility and failures, and more as an exercise in efficiency and economics. If you stick with bullets or other components that are widely used, you will find data. Call me too efficient, but my very first bullet order, before I had loaded a single round in my life, was 3000 MG 147 CMJs. Research (before purchase) is your friend and I was confident from my research that I could come up with a workable load using that bullet and my chosen powder - and I have. No compromises either - the load works perfectly after I fine-tuned a couple of parameters based on my guns.

It would be my suggestion that new reloaders (like me, for that matter) stick with popular, common components for which data is available; no plated bullets, and that they seat and crimp separately. Leave those extra challenges for later in your reloading career. Begin buying in bulk the moment you are comfortable with a developed load. And like I said, I rolled the dice and bought nearly everything in bulk before the first round dropped off the press - but... I over-researched prior to that.

F106 Fan
12-18-2012, 09:12
I put KKM barrels in all my Glocks a few years ago. Recently, I bought a Glock 36. I checked KKMís site, they donít have a barrel for it.

I intend to use lead in all my handguns. I would really like to use lead in my 16Ē AR 9mm but I donít know if that would be a problem, so I will wait on that until I have read something that shows itís okay first. Then Iíll still be hesitant about it.


I don't think there are too many people suggesting lead bullets in a gas operated rifle.



For now, I want to use lead in my G30 and G36.

The Accurate manual states with a 5Ē barrel for AA#5.

230gr. RNFMJ start load 7.8gr. of 816 fps with a Max of 8.7gr. at 927 fps. C.O.L of 1.250Ē.

230gr. Lead Bullet start load of 7.7gr. of 852 fps with a Max load of 8.5gr. at 968 fps. C.O.L. of 1.230Ē.

With the different lengths, it seems a little confusing. I just donít know if it would be safe to go by the Lead Data and use the 1.250Ē length. I know that length chambers fine in both of my Glocks.

1.250" is the standard length for a 230 gr RN of any type. I even use if for my LSWCs. It's longer than 1.230" so the pressure will be a little bit lower. The criteria, and the things you should check, are simple: Does it fit the magazine? Does it chamber? More important, does the bullet not hit the rifling? Make sure when you drop the bullet in the chamber that it will spin on the casemouth and that the bullet doesn't drag on anything.

The SAAMI standard for .45 ACP OAL is in the range of 1.190" to 1.275" but that says nothing about how reloaders can determine if the pressure is below the max.

I would probably start at the minimum charge of 7.8 gr (AA #5) and work up to somewhere around 8.2 gr for a plated bullet. As long as the gun cycles and the round is accurate, additional powder isn't a goal.

Richard

smokin762
12-18-2012, 10:48
I tend to look at reloading as less of an experiment and exercise in mixed futility and failures, and more as an exercise in efficiency and economics. If you stick with bullets or other components that are widely used, you will find data. Call me too efficient, but my very first bullet order, before I had loaded a single round in my life, was 3000 MG 147 CMJs. Research (before purchase) is your friend and I was confident from my research that I could come up with a workable load using that bullet and my chosen powder - and I have. No compromises either - the load works perfectly after I fine-tuned a couple of parameters based on my guns.

It would be my suggestion that new reloaders (like me, for that matter) stick with popular, common components for which data is available; no plated bullets, and that they seat and crimp separately. Leave those extra challenges for later in your reloading career. Begin buying in bulk the moment you are comfortable with a developed load. And like I said, I rolled the dice and bought nearly everything in bulk before the first round dropped off the press - but... I over-researched prior to that.

Ya, I get what you are saying about the bullet manufacture and powder data. When you buy unknown components, it becomes a pain to find information for it. I have been figuring this one out also.

I want to buy casting equipment. I have decided to get Lyman molds for lead bullets. In their manual, they use a reference number with the bullet from their mold and it contains the loading data with the powders that I want to use. Everything is there in black and white. For me, it simplifies things.

I have already been going through all my reloading manuals and have been cross referencing all the components with the powder that I want to use. If the manuals donít have the data, then Iíll buy the components that match up with that data, word for word until I get experience.

As far as the plated bullets, I thought the plated bullet would reduce leading. Iím not going to think about it anymore.

smokin762
12-18-2012, 11:00
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I don't think there are too many people suggesting lead bullets in a gas operated rifle.

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1.250" is the standard length for a 230 gr RN of any type. I even use if for my LSWCs. It's longer than 1.230" so the pressure will be a little bit lower. The criteria, and the things you should check, are simple: Does it fit the magazine? Does it chamber? More important, does the bullet not hit the rifling? Make sure when you drop the bullet in the chamber that it will spin on the casemouth and that the bullet doesn't drag on anything.

The SAAMI standard for .45 ACP OAL is in the range of 1.190" to 1.275" but that says nothing about how reloaders can determine if the pressure is below the max.

I would probably start at the minimum charge of 7.8 gr (AA #5) and work up to somewhere around 8.2 gr for a plated bullet. As long as the gun cycles and the round is accurate, additional powder isn't a goal.

Richard

[FONT=Calibri]The 9mm AR works as direct blowback. All the pistol caliber ARís I am aware of do not have a gas tube. My concern was the 16Ē of barrel length. Not sure if that was to long for a lead bullet and most likely causing it to get up to higher velocities.

Thank you, I never thought about spinning the loaded bullet in the chamber, checking for resistance.

Iíll go with the Start load of the RNFMJ data.

Thank you. :wavey:

Colorado4Wheel
12-18-2012, 11:28
As far as the plated bullets, I thought the plated bullet would reduce leading. Iím not going to think about it anymore.:

Properly loaded plated will not lead at all.

F106 Fan
12-18-2012, 11:34
The 9mm AR works as direct blowback. All the pistol caliber ARís I am aware of do not have a gas tube. My concern was the 16Ē of barrel length. Not sure if that was to long for a lead bullet and most likely causing it to get up to higher velocities.

Thank you, I never thought about spinning the loaded bullet in the chamber, checking for resistance.

Iíll go with the Start load of the RNFMJ data.

Thank you. :wavey:

I didn't know that! Blowback...

There are a lot of people shooting lead bullets in rifles and I don't see why 9mm would be an exception. OTOH, I don't have any load data for such a thing.

Somebody around here will have done it!

Richard

SARDG
12-18-2012, 11:37
...As far as the plated bullets, I thought the plated bullet would reduce leading. Iím not going to think about it anymore.
So will jacketed - but there is data for, and fewer issues with, jacketed.

smokin762
12-18-2012, 11:43
So will jacketed - but there is data for, and fewer issues with, jacketed.

For me the issue is, at the club I belong to they will only allow members to shoot at metal reactive targets with lead only. It’s kind of getting old for me using .22lr only for this purpose. I want to practice this with my CCW guns as well.

smokin762
12-18-2012, 11:49
I didn't know that! Blowback...

There are a lot of people shooting lead bullets in rifles and I don't see why 9mm would be an exception. OTOH, I don't have any load data for such a thing.

Somebody around here will have done it!

Richard

Ya, my RRA 9mm AR, the upper receiver is not even drilled for a gas tube. My Spikes Tactical dedicated .22lr Upper is drilled for a gas tube. Both rifles are gas blow back.

At my club, I know they have Cowboy shoots with pistols and pistol caliber lever action carbines, I can only assume they use lead. I never asked them. :dunno:

F106 Fan
12-18-2012, 17:41
For me the issue is, at the club I belong to they will only allow members to shoot at metal reactive targets with lead only. Itís kind of getting old for me using .22lr only for this purpose. I want to practice this with my CCW guns as well.


Even plated bullets have some kind of jacket. It's not much but it is still a jacket.

I shoot lead because I am cheap! OTOH, my grandson will NEVER shoot lead, by edict! So I load FMJ for him. Since we both shoot .45 ACP, it's no big deal. The load and the OAL are the same.

FWIW, lead will splash back quite a ways. I was shooting 12 gauge slugs at a metal plate 50 yards down range and managed to get a teardrop shaped piece of splashback in my leg. I had to go have it removed which involved lying my *** off about how it happened.

Wear those safety glasses!

Richard

smokin762
12-18-2012, 18:04
This evening, I started loading the plated bullets. I started off with dummy loads, I went with the jacketed bullet data first. No primers or powder. I wanted to check them in the chamber first.

I didnít feel comfortable with the length of C.O.L. at 1.250Ē. As suggested by F106 Fan, check to see if the loaded bullet will turn freely in the chamber. It did not. At that point, I decided to use the lead bullet data instead. It states to use a C.O.L. of 1.230Ē. I adjusted for that.

Using the Accurate Manual as my source, I went with the load data for the 230gr. lead bullets with AA# 5. I loaded up a total of 100 rounds. I did this because I have 2 different Glocks chambered in .45 ACP. I wanted to test each load with 10 rounds in each gun.

1st 20 rounds, 7.7gr.
2nd 20 rounds at 7.8gr.
3rd 20 rounds at 7.9gr.
4th 20 rounds at 8.0gr.
5th 20 rounds at 8.1gr.

At any point, if I notice any problems, I will not continue with the next load. I will bring them home and take them apart.

SARDG
12-18-2012, 18:55
I didnít feel comfortable with the length of C.O.L. at 1.250Ē. As suggested by F106 Fan, check to see if the loaded bullet will turn freely in the chamber. It did not. At that point, I decided to use the lead bullet data instead. It states to use a C.O.L. of 1.230Ē...
I load 230gr MG CMJ (which look a lot like FMJ) in my G30 at 1.259 with no issues. Are you certain that the loaded cartridge woudn't turn freely in the chamber? How's your crimp? Did you use a Sharpie on the bullet (or around the crimp for that matter) to see where something may be rubbing in the chamber?

SARDG
12-18-2012, 19:06
For me the issue is, at the club I belong to they will only allow members to shoot at metal reactive targets with lead only. Itís kind of getting old for me using .22lr only for this purpose. I want to practice this with my CCW guns as well.
Gosh, I luv my club... Class 3 weapons, Tannerite, jacketed bullets at steel (though no JHP). I'm an RO there and open my own pocket range when I want to shoot or use my chrono... I've got the world on a string, sitting on a rainbow... :faint:

smokin762
12-18-2012, 19:35
I load 230gr MG CMJ (which look a lot like FMJ) in my G30 at 1.259 with no issues. Are you certain that the loaded cartridge woudn't turn freely in the chamber? How's your crimp? Did you use a Sharpie on the bullet (or around the crimp for that matter) to see where something may be rubbing in the chamber?

No. I didnít know about the sharpie thing. Iíll have to give that a try. It makes sense. I couldnít find anything in the accurate manual about crimping.

I did check both the Hornady and Lyman manuals though. If I am doing this right, in the diagram on the first page of both manuals, it shows the crimp is to be set at .473 for the .45 ACP bullets. I am there.

I took the first set of 5 dummy rounds I made after my adjustments and took them apart with a bullet puller. I gave it 4 hard blows to the cement until they came loose. I checked the bullets for any shaving. I didnít see any.

smokin762
12-18-2012, 19:45
Gosh, I luv my club... Class 3 weapons, Tannerite, jacketed bullets at steel (though no JHP). I'm an RO there and open my own pocket range when I want to shoot or use my chrono... I've got the world on a string, sitting on a rainbow... :faint:

The club that I belong to right now, is only 17 minutes from my house. Itís not a bad place. The club leases the land from some guy. The owner inherited the land from his parents. Heís a real Richard if you know what I mean. From time to time he whines and complains about all sorts of things.

Three weeks ago while I was at the pistol range, one of the club officials was there complaining to us members about dumb stuff. I told him, go tell the owner to kick the club out. Then he can puff up his chest and brag to everybody how second amendment friendly he is. After that, he can try to figure out what to do with land that floods out from time to time and that has lead in it from the past 60 years. My guess nothing. :dunno:

There is a club about 45 minutes from my house, which has plenty of different ranges on it. They even have a 600 yard rifle range. They are also F/A friendly. I am going to see if I can join it early next year.

Taterhead
12-18-2012, 20:06
No. I didnít know about the sharpie thing. Iíll have to give that a try. It makes sense. I couldnít find anything in the accurate manual about crimping.

I did check both the Hornady and Lyman manuals though. If I am doing this right, in the diagram on the first page of both manuals, it shows the crimp is to be set at .473 for the .45 ACP bullets. I am there.

I took the first set of 5 dummy rounds I made after my adjustments and took them apart with a bullet puller. I gave it 4 hard blows to the cement until they came loose. I checked the bullets for any shaving. I didnít see any.

Quick suggestion: The end grain of a piece of lumber works really well for kinetic pullers.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Plated bullets can be very finicky. If you are not seeing "bite" from your case mouth on your pulled bullets, and if they pass the "plunk" test in your chamber, then you are probably good to go as far as crimp goes. Seating and crimping plated bullets in separate steps gives some good assurances too that you will not abuse the plating.

Fred was right that these were not a bargain. You were by no means totally hosed, but you can certainly do better. Precision Delta has great prices. If you don't have the budget to order 2000 at a time, then PowerBond bullets work great too. They can be had in quantities of 500 for comparable prices. You use regular FMJ data for those according to Matt @ PowerBond. Order those direct from PowerBondbullets.com. I've run thousands of them this year in 10mm and 40 S&W with great results. I have seen no difference in performance vis-a-vis traditional jacketed bullets.

I feel fortunate that my club is open to virtually whatever. Pistol pits, conex pits, rifle, benchrest, small bore, shotgun. Lots of fixed steel and reactive steel targets. Long range rifle firing positions to fixed steel gongs out to 2200 yards if needed (for the .50 & .338 boomers). Often I will have the whole place to myself unless a match of some sort is running. Great facility.

SARDG
12-18-2012, 20:06
No. I didnít know about the sharpie thing. Iíll have to give that a try. It makes sense. I couldnít find anything in the accurate manual about crimping.

I did check both the Hornady and Lyman manuals though. If I am doing this right, in the diagram on the first page of both manuals, it shows the crimp is to be set at .473 for the .45 ACP bullets. I am there.

I took the first set of 5 dummy rounds I made after my adjustments and took them apart with a bullet puller. I gave it 4 hard blows to the cement until they came loose. I checked the bullets for any shaving. I didnít see any.
.473 is the SAAMI spec. Are you familiar with and have you checked the SAAMI site? Your crimp should straighten out the bell, not hold the bullet in the case. 4 blows isn't unusual but (particularly) if you are using plated bullets, you need to be certain that your pulled bullets don't exhibit any cracking/scaring of the plating. They should be essentially smooth where the crimp was.

Are your rounds seating into the chamber all the way with 1.250? I would think that they should - and if not, there may be a crimp (or resizing) issue. If you hold the side of the caliper up to the side of the case, and into a light, the case should be straight, case mouth to head. Regardless of a little light shining through, Glocks have comparatively huge chambers and should fully seat in the barrel. If you are using an aftermarket barrel, things get dicey. Do the 1.250 rounds pass a ker-plunk test? The round should drop into the chamber with a nice ker-plunk sound.

I'll tell you, I use a case gauge. Generally (like always), if it fits a gauge, it'll fit any Glock chamber (not necessarily feed though). Conversely... if it fits a Glock barrel, it may not fit a SAAMI gauge or other manufacturer's barrel.

SARDG
12-18-2012, 20:10
The club that I belong to right now, is only 17 minutes from my house. Itís not a bad place. The club leases the land from some guy. The owner inherited the land from his parents. Heís a real Richard if you know what I mean. From time to time he whines and complains about all sorts of things.
...
Did you hear that Richard? Now what does that mean??? :rofl:

SARDG
12-18-2012, 20:15
Where's unclebob - he usually has at least 2 cents worth regarding this stuff?

smokin762
12-18-2012, 20:21
Did you hear that Richard? Now what does that mean??? :rofl:

Nothing to do with F106 Fan. Honest. :embarassed:

smokin762
12-18-2012, 20:32
.473 is the SAAMI spec. Are you familiar with and have you checked the SAAMI site? Your crimp should straighten out the bell, not hold the bullet in the case. 4 blows isn't unusual but (particularly) if you are using plated bullets, you need to be certain that your pulled bullets don't exhibit any cracking/scaring of the plating. They should be essentially smooth where the crimp was.

Are your rounds seating into the chamber all the way with 1.250? I would think that they should - and if not, there may be a crimp (or resizing) issue. If you hold the side of the caliper up to the side of the case, and into a light, the case should be straight, case mouth to head. Regardless of a little light shining through, Glocks have comparatively huge chambers and should fully seat in the barrel. If you are using an aftermarket barrel, things get dicey. Do the 1.250 rounds pass a ker-plunk test? The round should drop into the chamber with a nice ker-plunk sound.

I'll tell you, I use a case gauge. Generally (like always), if it fits a gauge, it'll fit any Glock chamber (not necessarily feed though). Conversely... if it fits a Glock barrel, it may not fit a SAAMI gauge or other manufacturer's barrel.

Yes, I dropped the first set of rounds into the chamber and it was in all the way. However, I shined a flashlight down the muzzle end of the barrel, I swear it looked like the bullets where touching the land part of the rifling. I couldnít see past it.

Once I seated the bullet to the 1.230Ē depth, I could see the brass edge of the case mouth with the round in the chamber of both guns. There wasnít any binding while trying to turn the round while it was in the chamber.

My Glock 36 has the OEM barrel. My Glock 30 has a KKM barrel.

When I removed the bullets from the case, they showed no sign of damage from crimping. Maybe, I should tighten them up to see how far I can go before I get to that point. :dunno:

smokin762
12-18-2012, 20:39
Quick suggestion: The end grain of a piece of lumber works really well for kinetic pullers.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Plated bullets can be very finicky. If you are not seeing "bite" from your case mouth on your pulled bullets, and if they pass the "plunk" test in your chamber, then you are probably good to go as far as crimp goes. Seating and crimping plated bullets in separate steps gives some good assurances too that you will not abuse the plating.

Fred was right that these were not a bargain. You were by no means totally hosed, but you can certainly do better. Precision Delta has great prices. If you don't have the budget to order 2000 at a time, then PowerBond bullets work great too. They can be had in quantities of 500 for comparable prices. You use regular FMJ data for those according to Matt @ PowerBond. Order those direct from PowerBondbullets.com. I've run thousands of them this year in 10mm and 40 S&W with great results. I have seen no difference in performance vis-a-vis traditional jacketed bullets.

I feel fortunate that my club is open to virtually whatever. Pistol pits, conex pits, rifle, benchrest, small bore, shotgun. Lots of fixed steel and reactive steel targets. Long range rifle firing positions to fixed steel gongs out to 2200 yards if needed (for the .50 & .338 boomers). Often I will have the whole place to myself unless a match of some sort is running. Great facility.

Thanks for the tip with the lumber.

I didnít have any sign of damage on the bullets after they were pulled.

I have the Dillon 650. The seating and crimping is two different stations.

At some point, I want to start casting my own lead bullets. First, I need to get this reloading part down though. I donít want too much on my plate. :embarassed: