Gun ban debates cleared my head on abortion issue. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Gunhaver
12-19-2012, 07:53
And the FB gun control debates continue... This time with a major opinion shift on my part. My latest post,

"It is with deep regret that I have to say that I've changed my mind about the abortion issue. First I was told by my church that it was wrong and why, and I simply accepted that without question as most children accept their church's stance on every issue. Then the atheism kicked in and brought with it many more leftist views. I "understood" that a woman's body was her domain (and women never missed an opportunity to remind me of that "fact" when the issue came up) and the choice was hers. But it wasn't until today that I realized the flaw in that argument. The flaw is in ignoring the responsibility that a woman has to maintain in order to retain that right. It's no different than 2A rights being contingent on not being a repeat offender or freedom of speech being contingent on not constantly shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

I have been completely ignoring the aspect of responsibility requirements regarding woman's domain over her body as a "right" while I was becoming so adept at pointing those requirements out for all other rights. This one slipped right past me while I was happily bleating along with all my lefty friends about how insane the right was in their opinions on the issues.

Today while thinking and arguing about this gun control issue I reiterated for the 100th time the importance of completely removing the R2BA from individuals that showed a lack of ability to handle that right responsibly rather than passing laws that further restricted everyone's rights as a lazy reactionary measure. Then it hit me... Why wasn't that a factor in the abortion issue? Why was the left ignoring this obvious flaw in their ironclad argument? But, but, but... the right has all the hypocrites and ****ty analogy makers, right?

So as I tend to do, I whipped up an analogy in my head to thought experiment with the concept a bit and it hit me.

Ladies, your body is an island under your complete domain and control. That much is sure and I feel that strongest in the fact that the concept of slut shaming confounds me. I blame a woman for wanting to have sex as much as I blame myself for the same and considering the much greater risks that women take by giving in to those desires than men do, when I slide into home plate it generally results in a "Thank you so much for choosing me to share your body with me." type feeling rather than the, "Yeah, I nailed that whore!" attitude that a lot of guys have.

So take that concept of your body as an island in your ownership and follow it to it's logical conclusion. IF you are responsible for what comes in because it affects you THEN you are also responsible for what comes out when it affects others much like environmental law insists. Take it a step further in line with the concept of pregnancy and imagine that she made a bad choice that resulted in another human being winding up stranded on her island with no means of leaving for 9 months. Now she is logically responsible for allocating her resources to keep that person alive and healthy until such time that they can get away to the mainland and have a chance of finding other means of support. They didn't come voluntarily to her island. She put them there by force through her own irresponsibility and if she doesn't want to ensure their survival then she's really no better than a murderer.

There IS a life ended with abortion. The rationalization is always made that the loss is a small one because the life had barely gotten started and the woman's choice is more important. By that logic the 20 children murdered in Connecticut is a smaller tragedy than if it had been 20 more adults but people sure aren't acting that way because deep down inside, whatever their stance on abortion or firearms, they under stand the tragedy of a life cut short before it really even got started is worse than a life cut short after it's had a chance to enjoy life for a while.

Everyone understands that concept. It's the whole reasoning behind "women and children first" except that it should really be children first and then women with men being a distant third.

And I really don't mind coming in a distant third on the life importance spectrum but if that's my fate then get your greasy ****ing mits dripping with hidden logical fallacy off my guns and high capacity magazines because I might need everything I can get to hold up the rear someday."

wprebeck
12-19-2012, 17:58
If you truly mean it, I'm glad to hear this. Very glad.

Gunhaver
12-19-2012, 19:04
I really wouldn't joke around about something like this.

beforeobamabans
12-19-2012, 19:55
Confirms my happiness at not having a FB account.

GAFinch
12-19-2012, 19:57
Conservative/religious people truly don't hold positions just to be mean to people. Self-control and responsibility are essential for functioning societies.

Gunhaver
12-19-2012, 20:10
Conservative/religious people truly don't hold positions just to be mean to people. Self-control and responsibility are essential for functioning societies.

No, but they do hold positions because they're uninformed, usually intentionally so. I don't care why the wrong are wrong. I only care that they're wrong.

Sneegrl
12-19-2012, 20:59
.....

jlavallee
12-19-2012, 22:57
Are we seriously having this discussion? Of course a life is ended, I doubt many question that but the focus is on when life starts and if the woman has the right to end that life based on her right to her own allocation of resources.

If you as many on this board do that life (because they believe an imaginary man in the clouds allocates a soul) at conception or because the components are there, then we have an aweful lot of poor souls that never adhere and are "natural" abortions. To those folks, some things like the morning after pill is murder.

On the other side you have people stating that the mother has supreme right and can abort at any time before birth.

To me and I suspect many, abortion is the one issue I tolerate from the bible thumping crowd but I've never had anyone convince me that either extreme is correct. If a woman carries a pregnancy for an extended period and decided to abort, I accept her right to supreme rule over her body but also she has now changed her mind on an earlier "contract" of sorts and part of being free is accepting responsibility for your actions.

On the other side, a microscopic fertilized egg is just the make up needed for life and without the bible nonsense, I see no issue with causing that embryo to be rejected. Couples having fertilized eggs implanted don't name them, they insert a few and hope one takes.

For me, the point of life is in there somewhere but as long as neither extreme is taken, why not let people decide for themselves? People argue over a 1 month abortion but don't say squat when our military bombs unquestionably "living" people without declared war. And some on the other side state that it is fine to abort a 5 month term but we should never own a gun because we might harm someone..

I don't see how the OP came to any new information. If taken to the ultimate ending, then a pre existing life is chosen over a potential one and in cases where a complication is likely to place the mother at risk, an abortion is preferred of only one can be saved. Taken to the end logical place, a person having self individual ownership trumps all else so if the fetus cannot survive without the mother or alternate means, it's a hard line to suggest the state has any say.

No other issue comes close in having merit on both sides and difficulty determining the answer. Anyone on the right who says we have a right to militarily kill in a proactive manner or anyone on the left that says a woman has no responsibility to a late term abortion but does to "provide" for social programs is easy to laugh at and like most, are hypocrites.

Government involvement in the middle is not going to help. about half or more of the people can be sold on anything if the propaganda is good. For vast majority of the remainder, good ideas backed up well sell easily, bad ones need to be forced.