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Jonesee
12-23-2012, 09:05
I took my Florida CCW class yesterday, here are some observations:

25 students in a class that normally handles 5 according to the instructor. If you didn't have a paid reservation, they had to turn you away. They were at capacity.

Of the 25 students, at least 4 admitted to never having shot a gun of any type before.

The class consisted of a 1 hour video, then 1 hour on basic handgun safety, 30 minutes Q and A, and then gun range certification.

Range certification was hitting an 8"x11" sheet of paper 3 times at 15' as best I could tell you got up to 6 shots to accomplish it.

At least 4 failed to certify.

My final observations:
There were some idiots in the class. Almost half the class did not have the skill set or exhibit the maturity to CCW.

I expected more from the class. Any idiot could pass it and some idiots did. One guy actually asked if it was OK to shoot someone in the back from 30' away. Yeah, that type of idiot. And he is now certified.

NMGlocker
12-23-2012, 09:10
whaaaa....

mac66
12-23-2012, 09:15
On the other hand, just about anyone can pick up a handgun and shoot it without any training or instruction what so ever. Heck even a three year old can figure out how to make it go bang so having a little training is better than nothing. That guy who asked about shooting someone in the back at least asked, and now he knows which makes him qualified. :whistling:

I am convinced that 80% of all humans are idiots. 10% are just clueless and only the other 10% have a clue. In spite of that the human race has managed to survive and thrive for thousands of years. Go figure :dunno:

But even idiots have rights and I don't think they should have to pay for a class to own or carry a pistol.

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 09:15
whaaaa....

I'm not crying. Just calling it like I see it.

Diesel McBadass
12-23-2012, 09:23
My class even the new shooters were shooting well. There focus was on safety and accuracy and instructors were great. Everyone could hit a man sized target at 50 feet even a woman with a bersa 380 who'd never shot before.

I notced some things though: People wth nylon holsters hated them, leather was popular polymer the most loved.

People liked consistent triggers over hammer fired. Hammer fired guns did the best on scores once in single action.

Ruger sr40 mags are impossible to load.

Riverkilt
12-23-2012, 09:24
Took my CCW class a couple years ago when nothing was in the news. About 16 of us. What struck me was how serious everyone was - and that all but one of us was OLD...like at least in their 40s. There was one young man in his mid 20s. Concealed carry is the answer for us olde geezers once we get too old to fist fight...or get so olde we look "easy" to the punks. Instructors were LEO and dead serious. Range time we had to fire 100 rounds each. Don't recall any score requirements but we all did well.

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 09:34
Average age in my class was probably 30-35. A couple of them were early 20s. One of the young guys dozed off and the instructor handled it in a cool but effective way.

One guy asked in you can CCW in a bar. The instructor said no. Basically the guy said that was where the scary guys are and the instructor told him to stay out of the F'n bar then. The class broke up laughing.

fireguy129
12-23-2012, 09:35
damn, you actually paid for that class??

Geezer Glide
12-23-2012, 09:42
Sounds like the instructor was just taking money and handing out permits.

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 09:47
damn, you actually paid for that class??

I'm not retired military so it was required. I read somewhere my hunter certification courses I've taken over the years would have worked. (I was grandfathered in, but I took it each time my 3 sons had to go through it). But for $60 I figured I would learn about the carry laws and maybe keep me out of trouble somewhere down the road.

The only thing I got from the class was a clarification about having a drink while carrying. (It is legal as long as you are not impaired). You can go in a restaraunt that serves alcohol, but can't sit in the bar area. You cannot go into a stand alone bar.

And clarification on imprinting. (It is not allowed in Florida, but an inadvertent slip doesn't count. Like your shirt lifting if you reach for something. )

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 09:49
Sounds like the instructor was just taking money and handing out permits.

Instructor was actually a great guy. Very knowledgable. I think he did what was required by the state. I'm not blaming him for the idiots in class or the requirements of the class. He had to teach to the lowest level in the class and that was pretty low.

OhioGlock90
12-23-2012, 09:57
I took my class in October. It was 12 hours long!!!! Te legal consult that came in did his best to scare away people who should be there. For about an hour he told us stories of how we can go to jail and ruin our lives. The qualification was a joke here to. About the same size target. You had to hit in the circle 10 times with no misses however you had as many times as it too to get that. I went with a friend who honestly didn't deserve to qualify but she spend enough time trying and she did. I have since spent a lot of time I the range with her teaching her proper techniques the best I can

Carrys
12-23-2012, 09:59
I expected more from the class. Any idiot could pass it and some idiots did.



I understand you.

Your feelings are 'bout the same as many I've heard over the years. But you and they should/must understand something......the class is a familiarization class only, it's not a "training" type of class. Those come later and must be sought out and paid for on one's own.

A CCW class is only for one thing, so that a student can show their ability to properly handle, load, and fire their gun, nothing more.

I know many folks have expected more out of it, but that was their fault. Proper training is something altogether different. It takes much longer and cost quite a bit more. 'Tis well worth it if ya ask me, but I'm speaking from over thirty years of that advanced training. I'll not try to brag and list it all.

But it was absolutely worth it. The class is for familiarization only. To prove to the State one won't shoot their foot off, ya know?

So do your self a favor and try not to confuse the CCW class with "training", eh?:wavey:

Z71bill
12-23-2012, 10:00
I have posted this before -

My first CHL class had a guy that we legally blind.

He could see his hand if front of his face - but that is about it.

I was a lane over from him while he qualified.

He passed - with a little help - guy standing behind him on the longer shots - telling him higher - to the right - OK fire.

He was at home and some thug broke in - beat the snot out of the 80+ year old and took whatever valuables he had - left him basicly for dead.

He still had visible bruises on his face -

I was at the same range a few months after the class and saw him practicing - his grandson was with him - helping him reload and set up targets.

He had made the decision that if the BG comes back he was not going down again without a fight.

If some thug breaks in to his home again - I would put my money on the old guy.

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 10:01
I understand what you are saying. But some of these people are clearly not prepared to CCW safely. They will be a hazard to themselves or others. But they will be carrying...

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 10:04
Sounds like he needs a short barreled shotgun. You dont need CCW to protect yourself in your house. And you don't need to be very accurate with a shotgun loaded with 00 or 000 buck.

Cybercowboy
12-23-2012, 10:04
My wife and I, along with our 21-year-old nephew and four friends all did the CCW class here in Missouri about three weeks ago. The class was completely full, and the instructor had to do a morning and afternoon range session due to the number of people (about 26 I think.) The age range was pretty well distributed, and everybody qualified easily including two of my friends who had zero prior experience. My wife is very experienced while I am not as experienced but have shot many times and we have owned guns since we first got married 26+ years ago.

The classroom portion was about 3 hours long, mainly a PowerPoint-style presentation with Q&A. The range session was about 4 hours and we were required to fire 50 rounds through a revolver and about 100 more through whatever other type of semi-auto pistol you wanted to use. I brought a really old .22 Ruger semi-auto my brother-in-law loaned us but only shot about 20 shots through it just for kicks (only one mag for it and it was a ***** to load.) Also brought a Glock 21, a Ruger .38 LCR, and S&W .357 revolver. I wanted to make sure the other people in the class that I knew had enough guns to use because most did not have a revolver.

The instructor had a few guns available for people who only had one type, including a cowboy-style revolver that was apparently ridiculously accurate because everybody I saw use it was getting tiny little groups. We had to shoot at a man-sized target from about 25 feet, and it was very easy.

I saw somebody there with a modern Ruger .22 target pistol and liked it so much I bought one, along with a Glock 26. Glad I bought them before all the madness hit.

certifiedfunds
12-23-2012, 10:04
I assert that most people who get their permit never actually carry or do so only briefly.

dvrdwn72
12-23-2012, 10:13
Some at the public range are scary enough. Thats why I lease some land to shoot.

tous
12-23-2012, 10:15
Yes, we should only let tier one operators take the various concealed carry classes. :upeyes:

And, none of us was ever inexperienced and nervous. We were all born with a 1911 in hand, a spare magazine in our diaper and the shooting skills of Jason Bourne. We should certainly disparage anyone we deem inferior to our personal warrior skills and it would demean us and break the code to actually talk to them and maybe help them out learning how to do what we are all so wonderful at.

I don't have to take the classes in Texas, I just show them a photo of my Ranger tattoo and a pistol target with 2,000 .357 SIG shots in one small hole at 100 yards. Yes, I am that good, thus, it is my sworn duty to sneer at anyone that cannot meet my high standard. I generally just call them idiots or noobs and nudge an ex-Navry SEAL and remark that they shouldn't be able to shoot, much less buy a pistol because they're beginners.

At no time will I lower myself to aid such and perhaps make the shooting sports enjoyable for them. No, they need to be put in their place.

:upeyes:

<--- spent four years as a Texas CHL instructor

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 10:20
OK.

At what point did you fail someone and determine they are not qualified to CCW?

Diesel McBadass
12-23-2012, 10:21
my main instructors were a former marine who spent a lot of tme training afghani police and now does training here and a current swat officer. About 300 rounds on the range.

Mix of young and old, one older couple in 50s, a guy in his 40s, and several people my age. Most were interested in concealed carry, 1 justed wanted to learn to shoot.

RonS
12-23-2012, 10:24
Average people have the right to defend their liberties, lives and famlies too.

4Rules
12-23-2012, 10:54
I'm not crying. Just calling it like I see it.

Would you be willing to read this book?

More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Gun Control Laws, 3rd Edition
By John R. Lott, Jr.
http://www.gunlaws.com/images/Photo/MGLC.jpg

If you do read it, I'd like to see this thread updated when you have done so, because, by then, you might "see it" differently.

NMGlocker
12-23-2012, 10:57
OK.

At what point did you fail someone and determine they are not qualified to CCW?
At the point they fail to meet the standards set forth by the state.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Florida law states that the applicant must safely handle and discharge a firearm.
If they can recite and demonstrate the 4 Rules and pull the trigger, I'd certify them.
Period, end of sentence.

btw: I am a state certified CCW instructor and would gladly give up my lucrative side job instructing classes if this state would go Constitutional carry, no permit required.

Z71bill
12-23-2012, 10:58
Sounds like he needs a short barreled shotgun. You dont need CCW to protect yourself in your house. And you don't need to be very accurate with a shotgun loaded with 00 or 000 buck.

The guy was well over 80 - very weak - frail - I doubt he could even pick up a shotgun.

IIRC he was shooting a Bersa in .380 -

gjk5
12-23-2012, 11:03
I took the most intensive class I could find, 16 hours and 300 rounds each of live fire. I actually went to learn rather than just get a CCW permit. The live fire portion was five hours and 5 instructors for about a dozen attendees.

Sounds like you instructor did not do their job AT ALL, if four relatively able bodied people out of that class could not hit that target at that range, the teacher sucked.

There are rubber stamp CCW classes, and I do not have a problem with that, but I personally would not do it, nor do I suggest it to anyone.

I set up a private CCW class in my office, just for the women. I have 23 signed up so far, gonna have a guy come do it in the conference room (probably at least twice0 and then take them to the range.

Sgt127
12-23-2012, 11:03
Sounds like he needs a short barreled shotgun. You dont need CCW to protect yourself in your house. And you don't need to be very accurate with a shotgun loaded with 00 or 000 buck.

I would argue he needs a revolver. Because the only time he should shoot is when he is within touching distance of the threat. Maybe at that range he will be able to feel if its his son..the meter reader...his wife...his dog....

itisbruno
12-23-2012, 11:11
Not everyone is fortunate to have a person in their family who has at least basic firearm handling skills show them the ropes.

I started my niece and nephew out on safe firearm handling and skills when they were 8. They "hated" me, as I would make them recite the 4 rules prior to touching the firearm, sometimes we would be at the range for hours. I tried to drill it into their heads.

On 12/29 my niece takes her qualification class.

Hopefully the folks in your class will make range trips more often and hone their skills, but kudos for them for having the courage to do what many will not, take responsibility for their own safety.

Upgrayedd
12-23-2012, 11:21
I've been shooting since I was a kid. Had my ccw permit since 2001. Over the years, the most dangerous situation I've been in was the time spent on the range during my ccw class. Class of 30 with half firing a gun for the first time. When the first idiot shot straight down into the floor, I asked to leave and was told I could, but wouldn't get my certificate. I spent the rest of the range time standing directly behind the person teaching the class. He did not like it one bit, but I figured it was the safest place around. Couldn't get out of there fast enough. Saw several shots that hit the ceiling and walls. I'm talking about missing a target by 30 feet when the target is ten feet in front of the shooter. Everyone passed the class. I'm all for ccw, but if you have a nd on the range while trying to prove you are safe, you should get kicked out.

dwhite53
12-23-2012, 11:33
I too was shocked at how poor some of the people in my class were on the range test. One girl had a revolver she had just bought and honestly couldn't even pull the trigger on. Thought it was broken till the instructor had no problem with it.

We're even talking people shooting .22 rimfire couldn't hit squat.

If you fail the shooting part of the NC class you should not be allowed to re-apply to take the class until you can prove you've gotten some training and can actually pass the shooting test.

I pulled a shot and put it about 4 inches out of the center of my group. I felt inadequate.

All the Best,
D. White

tous
12-23-2012, 11:35
OK.

At what point did you fail someone and determine they are not qualified to CCW?

Students failed if:

They exhibited unsafe firearm handling
They didn't have the minimum score on the written test
They didn't have the minmum score on the shooting test

I understood that folk new to pistol shooting would be nervous. If they had trouble operating the firearm such as filling the magazine and reloading (we did a lot of reloading,) stance, grip and sight picture I would help them, but I didn't delay the rest of the class.

If they swept me or another student, loaded or not, immediate fail.

tous
12-23-2012, 11:38
Not everyone is fortunate to have a person in their family who has at least basic firearm handling skills show them the ropes.

I started my niece and nephew out on safe firearm handling and skills when they were 8. They "hated" me, as I would make them recite the 4 rules prior to touching the firearm, sometimes we would be at the range for hours. I tried to drill it into their heads.

On 12/29 my niece takes her qualification class.

Hopefully the folks in your class will make range trips more often and hone their skills, but kudos for them for having the courage to do what many will not, take responsibility for their own safety.

'bruno, if you have spent much time on public ranges or in competitions, you know that gun people are by and large, very friendly and more than happy to help out the other fellow, no?

That is the attitude we need so that shooting sports has a future, not the 'look at that idiot' mindset.

If a feller is just ornery, I move on. Plenty of nice people to help out.

Dan_ntx
12-23-2012, 11:39
I renewed my Texas CHL last year and it was similar... The cop teaching the class strung it out for 8 hours that his daughter had killed herself with his gun when she was 10...but dropped hints the whole time so most of us knew it was coming. It definitely impacted what he considered important information to teach and I know the first timers in that class walked out thinking proper storage of firearms was incredibly important...not that it isn't, but the focus was defiantly on storage more than concealment or situations where you might use your weapon.

The course of fire was a joke...I am confident I could pass by throwing bullets at the target.
The guy directly on my left had 6 FTFs in a row...passed
The WW2 vet in the other shooting group that dropped his pistol...twice...passed.
The girl who was dragged there by her parents and slept through (no exaggeration) 80% of the class...passed.

I'm glad they are interested in legal gun ownership...but these are the people that forget they have a gun in their luggage or leave it in the bathroom at a home Depot.

One funny moment was when the instructor had been dropping hints that safe gun storage was one of his hot buttons had a near screaming match with a nit wit tinfoil hat wearing student who proudly admitted to stashing loaded guns all over his house...just in case. Back and forth they traded jabs about why it was unsafe...but bad guys are everywhere...but someone could get hurt...but there is no time to get in a safe...etc. Then the bomb was dropped that his daughter found his duty weapon and killed herself...long silence, instructor near tears...."well you just didn't hide it good enough!"... Lunch break!

Btw, he passed.

It cost about $300 to get your CHL in Texas and around $200 to renew it. It would be nice if they had more of an emphisis on training. I can spent that much on a shooters program with an instructor and be much more proficient and capable...it would be nice if TX would waive a few fees if I completed an approved course...but I'm dreaming.

Z71bill
12-23-2012, 11:45
A lady at my CHL RENEWAL (she already had a CHL) load the cartridges into the magazine backwards - then couldn't figure out why she couldn't rack the slide.

She ask for the instructor to help figure it out -

Took him about .1 of a second.

IMHO he should have failed her -

He did fail one guy that refused to follow his shooting commands -

He said - LOAD 5 rounds - shoot ONE ROUND each time I say fire - DO NOT SHOOT ALL 5 ROUNDS - ONE ROUND AT A TIME

Ready FIRE - BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM :cool:

So he goes over and chews the guy out - then explains if he does it again he will fail him.

Tells us to load 5 more rounds - and fire ONE ROUND each time he says fire - DO NOT SHOOT ALL FIVE ROUNDS

Ready FIRE - BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM :rofl:

Told the guy to pack up and leave the range. :steamed:

itisbruno
12-23-2012, 12:02
'bruno, if you have spent much time on public ranges or in competitions, you know that gun people are by and large, very friendly and more than happy to help out the other fellow, no?

That is the attitude we need so that shooting sports has a future, not the 'look at that idiot' mindset.

If a feller is just ornery, I move on. Plenty of nice people to help out.

I concur, friendly advice is much better than degrading admonishment.

The niece cracked me up hard when I took her to the range last weekend to pratice on multiple firearms to pick one to qualify with.

I gave her a selection of a SIG SP2022, a Sig P228, and a G30.

Out of the three, she did best with the G30.

She did however, have a brain fart moment. I carry G21 13 rounders in the G30, and on her first magazine load and insertion of the G30, she held the firearm pointed downrange, smacking the crap out of the bottom of the mag trying to get it to "fit."

I was in tears before I explained her that a 13 round mag extends from the bottom of the G30 grip, because it was designed for a 10 round mag.

She turned red as a beet.

Bless her little heart ...

:supergrin:

I have a G30 locked, boxed, and locked to take to class with her. If she qualifies, I will replace the HiPoint C9 I bought for her to use when she was 12 that sits in my safe with a G30 for a graduation gift.

Kingarthurhk
12-23-2012, 12:30
There were some very "special" people in the CCL course I took too. A great deal of them didn't know their firearm, how to handle a jam, or figure out that the breach can take a chunk out of your hand.

Fortunately, there were no wheeling around lasering everyone with the muzzle. That was my father's CCL experience of duck everytime the lady with the loaded gun had a question.

I blame this on a lack of gun culture in our society.

tous
12-23-2012, 12:41
I blame this on a lack of gun culture in our society.

Then continue and augment the gun culture.

I doubt that the folk that were mis-handling their firearm were doing it intentionally, no? They didn't know.

They didn't know.

Help them know.

How many folk have been soured on the shooting sports because of some galoot made them feel unwelcome and stupid?

Don't be that guy.

:wavey:

Kingarthurhk
12-23-2012, 12:44
Then continue and augment the gun culture.

I doubt that the folk that were mis-handling their firearm were doing it intentionally, no? They didn't know.

They didn't know.

Help them know.

How many folk have been soured on the shooting sports because of some galoot made them feel unwelcome and stupid?

Don't be that guy.

:wavey:

I was the quiet guy, just watching in disbelief.

Now, when people ask for help, I am more than willing to lend a hand. I am that guy. I taught my wife to shoot and fend for herself. I was asked for help by a non-guntoter at work, and offered my time, use of my personally owned weapon, ammo, and time.

tous
12-23-2012, 12:47
I was the quiet guy, just watching in disbelief.

Now, when people ask for help, I am more than willing to lend a hand. I am that guy. I taught my wife to shoot and fend for herself. I was asked for help by a non-guntoter at work, and offered my time, use of my personally owned weapon, ammo, and time.

:thumbsup:

Good for you, amigo.

:wavey:

MikeNH
12-23-2012, 12:56
NH has no class but when I moved to Michigan it seemed pretty obvious that having past experience shooting I was in the minority. People seemed fixated on trivial details but at least they asked questions. But the instructors were good about making the class something everyone could benefit from. I ended up doing the qualification another day so I don't know how others did though.

cowboy1964
12-23-2012, 14:36
One guy actually asked if it was OK to shoot someone in the back from 30' away.

Well, if it's a clean shoot, it's a clean shoot. If it isn't, it isn't. I don't see the problem. It's certainly a valid scenario.

cowboy1964
12-23-2012, 14:39
Yet there are tons of people that will argue that since "bear" is a right, the government has no place even making us prove basic competency or require a single days worth of training.

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 14:50
Well, if it's a clean shoot, it's a clean shoot. If it isn't, it isn't. I don't see the problem. It's certainly a valid scenario.


What is a clean shoot when you shoot someone in the back moving away at 30'. im sure there is a scenario, but i have to ask.

I will tell you the reitred cop that conducted the class said unequivocably, it would not be defensable.

if what you are saying is it is better that he ask now than do something stupid later, I agree with you.

bunk22
12-23-2012, 15:01
At least 4 failed to certify.

My final observations:
There were some idiots in the class. Almost half the class did not have the skill set or exhibit the maturity to CCW.

I expected more from the class. Any idiot could pass it and some idiots did. One guy actually asked if it was OK to shoot someone in the back from 30' away. Yeah, that type of idiot. And he is now certified.

Were we in the same class?? :supergrin: I did mine two years ago with similar results but it was more like 3/4 of the class did not have the skill set or maturity.

Jake Starr
12-23-2012, 15:03
I assert that most people who get their permit never actually carry or do so only briefly.


I am afraid that I would have to agree. And few get any advanced training.


But those that do get more training usually become serious about it and I am proud to have been part of their journey.

itisbruno
12-23-2012, 17:09
'bruno, if you have spent much time on public ranges or in competitions, you know that gun people are by and large, very friendly and more than happy to help out the other fellow, no?

That is the attitude we need so that shooting sports has a future, not the 'look at that idiot' mindset.

If a feller is just ornery, I move on. Plenty of nice people to help out.

My last public range trip, the guy in the lane next to me was shooting paper plates. I asked him if he would like one of my targets, and he said he didn't wanna spoil himself, his wife had him on a "tight budget."

It was my second trip to the range with my new XDS, he was admiring it, and I offered to let him fire a few rounds, he declined, citing his "tight budget" and not wanting to get to like new toys.

His wife showed up shortly after that, and he had her look at the XDS, and she feel in love. They both fired a few rounds thru it, and went into the shop to price one.

Most of my range trips are pleasant, and occasionally entertaining.

This thread did remind me to have my niece be cautious and observe the behavior of others for her own safety.

Lithium
12-23-2012, 17:24
(wow, has it been that long?) IIRC there were 6 people in my class, one person was a moron.

We all passed after the mandatory training (live fire and classroom) and I was surprised at the level of skill I saw.

20 years (and almost 7000 hours of training) later, yes, there are people who shouldn't have guns but it is all part of what makes America.

I have the same amount of rights as everybody else, no more, no less.

America is a free country.

PaladinFl
12-23-2012, 18:34
Never took the class. Just used my DD214 and read the state statutes several times.

Upgrayedd
12-23-2012, 19:40
What is a clean shoot when you shoot someone in the back moving away at 30'. im sure there is a scenario, but i have to ask.

I will tell you the reitred cop that conducted the class said unequivocably, it would not be defensable.

if what you are saying is it is better that he ask now than do something stupid later, I agree with you.

What if he's heading towards a rifle that's 31' away?

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 19:51
What if he's heading towards a rifle that's 31' away?


That wasn't the guy's question. It was about them turning their back and leaving after being confronted inside the home.

If he was going toward a gun, with my newfound knowledge, it would mean there was "imminent imminence" and you could act knowing that the situation was about to escalate to a potentially lethal level. You are not held to the standard of someone actually pointing a weapon at you if you can logically conclude the action is about to happen.

(see I was paying attention!!!)

Upgrayedd
12-23-2012, 19:58
That wasn't the guy's question. It was about them turning their back and leaving after being confronted inside the home.

If he was going toward a gun, with my newfound knowledge, it would mean there was "imminent imminence" and you could act knowing that the situation was about to escalate to a potentially lethal level. You are not held to the standard of someone actually pointing a weapon at you if you can logically conclude the action is about to happen.

(see I was paying attention!!!)

Good job! :wavey: Sounds like your class was better than mine. In my first class, in 2001 the instructor said, "Shoot 'em outside, drag 'em inside."

ithaca_deerslayer
12-23-2012, 19:58
Class we teach is 4hr safety and general handgun knowledge, but no live fire.

Generally because NYS is permit to possess, they don't want firing guns until after the permit. But there is no post-permit live fire requirement either.

itisbruno
12-23-2012, 20:00
Wow ... other than NY and VA, what other states do not require live fire to qualify?

ithaca_deerslayer
12-23-2012, 20:04
Then the bomb was dropped that his daughter found his duty weapon and killed herself...long silence, instructor near tears...."well you just didn't hide it good enough!"... Lunch break!
.
Hard to imagine going on after that.

Jonesee
12-23-2012, 20:04
Good job! :wavey: Sounds like your class was better than mine. In my first class, in 2001 the instructor said, "Shoot 'em outside, drag 'em inside."


35-40 years ago my grandparents' home in Oklahoma got robbed while they were away.

It pretty well unnerved my grandma that someone had broken in the house. She asked the county sherriff what to do if someone was breaking in the house. He told her to shoot them, drag them in the house and call him. He was dead serious.

Oklahoma isn't Illinois, New Jersey or New York...

Folsom_Prison
12-23-2012, 20:10
I took my class and the instructor was a former KCMO police officer. IMO he was pretty informative and to the point. Class was eight hours if I remember correctly including range time. I forget all the exact details.

There was probably about 20 folks in the class, you could get the vibe some of them really were not big gun people, hell at least three or four showed up and didn't even have their own pistol!

NEOH212
12-23-2012, 20:47
The Ohio CHL class I took years ago was pretty good. It was longer than the required minimum course though. I thought the instructors did a good job.

The instructors went through all the legal stuff first and made darn sure everyone in the class knew the legal end of having to use a firearm for self defense, including what you could expect after the fact.

Then we went into the gun safety and taught the class how to safely handle and operate a semi-auto handgun, a revolver and a pump action shotgun.

Then it was on to live fire. The instructors had everyone shoot to evaluate what their abilities were and worked with the ones that needed help and let us that were obviously not new to guns and shooting get into a group by ourselves and shoot under the watch of another instructor that gave us advanced instruction.

Everyone ended up passing in the class I took and they made sure by the time everyone left that they all could demonstrate competency of not only getting rounds on the paper, but be able to hit with some accuracy.

I also like the fact of how they separated us and worked with cover and different shooting positions, as well as how to clear malfunctions.

They did make it clear that they recommended that everyone in the class continue to seek more training and get to the range as often as possible. These guys were the real deal. No ego's, no chauvinist crap or big heads. They were very professional and exactly what I expected out of a top notch class.

I still shoot with one of the instructors from time to time. He's a really good fellow.

I've seen some other so called classes and I must say that I was highly disappointed with the level of instruction. Personally, I think if there is going to be a requirement on the level of instruction, it should be more like the class I took and not one of these short joke classes.

I don't feel a class should be mandatory in order to obtain a license to carry though. For that matter, we shouldn't need the license either.

:cool:

mortpes
12-23-2012, 21:38
The problem in Florida currently is there is a wide gap between the written law and the case law. People not following the legal trends are in trouble thinking they are OK in that they are following the written law. This gap will continue to widen as we go along. Currently you should not shoot unless you are not a party at all in the altercation. If it appears that the two of you are fighting and you upgraded to a gun then you are out. You should not shoot unless there is clear physical evidence of serious aggression such as a broken car window or broken door. So I suggest people consider the spirit of the law and not just the written words.

czsmithGT
12-23-2012, 23:12
I took my Florida CCW class yesterday, here are some observations:

25 students in a class that normally handles 5 according to the instructor. If you didn't have a paid reservation, they had to turn you away. They were at capacity.

Of the 25 students, at least 4 admitted to never having shot a gun of any type before.

The class consisted of a 1 hour video, then 1 hour on basic handgun safety, 30 minutes Q and A, and then gun range certification.

Range certification was hitting an 8"x11" sheet of paper 3 times at 15' as best I could tell you got up to 6 shots to accomplish it.

At least 4 failed to certify.

My final observations:
There were some idiots in the class. Almost half the class did not have the skill set or exhibit the maturity to CCW.

I expected more from the class. Any idiot could pass it and some idiots did. One guy actually asked if it was OK to shoot someone in the back from 30' away. Yeah, that type of idiot. And he is now certified.

This is pretty much the way it was at the mandatory CCW class I had to take many years ago when my state became a shall issue state. Most of the people who got their cert you wouldn't want to be around if they were carrying, not because they were bad people but because they were clueless about how to use a handgun.