Does anyone make training ammo that fails on purpose? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Adams454
12-23-2012, 22:26
I'm thinking someone should make a line of ammo specifically for defensive training schools like Gunsite, etc. Maybe figure out how to load 10 rounds or so per 100 in a mixed bag with either dud primers, or barely enough powder to exit the barrel, but not cycle the gun. Of course it would have to be clearly marked for training only. But it seems like the random failures would actually help during a defensive course.

I'm sure you would have to figure out how to minimize the liability, like maybe anodize the brass red or something. But I'm thinking there wouldn't be a lot of liability because the only people buying it would know what it's for.

The reason I came up with the idea is because the guns I shoot regularly are so reliable, I don't get a lot of clearance practice. I've had my G27 for 5+ years and never had it jam.

HollowHead
12-23-2012, 22:32
Why not just stick a .40 SnapCap in the stack? That's what they did in the Personal Protection course I took. HH

Adams454
12-23-2012, 22:36
I was thinking that would too off the person being trained. They would be looking for it in that mag. That's why I was thinking all the ammo should look the same.

Ohio Copper
12-23-2012, 22:40
Have someone else load all of your mags and add in a few snap caps.

Turn around and do 20 push-ups then stand and engage targets from contact distance. Each time you have a FTF; tap, rack and assess!

We do this in training every now and again and it's amazing that some folks panic.

Work the damn problem and stay in the fight!

Evosil98
12-23-2012, 22:42
Snap caps has worked for me. But sometimes i have to close my eyes when i load my mags so I don't know which round it is.

smokin762
12-23-2012, 22:42
I vote for the snap caps too. Easier to identiy in a stressful situation.

HollowHead
12-23-2012, 22:44
Turn around and do 20 push-ups then stand and engage targets from contact distance.

You've never seen the guys at my range, have you? :rofl: HH

Steve in PA
12-23-2012, 22:47
I mix dummy plastic rounds in my magazines all the time. I vary where the dummy round will be; second, third, next to last, etc. After loading the mags, I'll not look at them while putting them into my mag pouch. Yes, I know I loaded them with dummy rounds, but I have no idea where they are in a given mag.

Like the other poster mentioned, have someone else load your mags.

Kchur00
12-23-2012, 22:47
Bought a bullet puller and made my own dummy rounds from live ammo.

Mix them around in some ammo without looking and load a magazine before target practice. Just keep count of how many you mixed in.

UtahIrishman
12-23-2012, 22:51
When I took the Appleseed course we had someone else load our mags with dummy rounds. It worked pretty well.

HollowHead
12-23-2012, 22:53
Bought a bullet puller and made my own dummy rounds from live ammo.

Mix them around in some ammo without looking and load a magazine before target practice. Just keep count of how many you mixed in.

With my luck, I'll come up on one of my dummies when I need a real one most. You can't mistake red plastic... HH

Steve in PA
12-23-2012, 22:54
I sure hope you pulled the primer or fired it before reassembling the round.

A live primer will have enough force to lodged a bullet in your barrel. Been there, done that when I first started reloading. My one and only squib load in over 20 years of reloading (knock on wood).

stevelyn
12-23-2012, 22:55
I think purposely manufacturing defect ammo, even if it's clear that there are defective rounds for training purposes is a bad idea. A squib could be disasterous.

Use snap-caps and have someone else load the mags.

samurairabbi
12-23-2012, 22:56
The possibility of a hangfire in one of the "hot" training rounds would nix your idea. When doing action drills with snapcaps in a live ammo mag, SOMEONE on the line must know when the next round will be a dummy; an immediate action drill in training on a hangfire is dangerous.

Ohio Copper
12-24-2012, 00:19
You've never seen the guys at my range, have you? :rofl: HH

If you're going to carry a gun and act in the defense of yourself and your family you should be in some sort of okay physical condition.

I'm not talking the elderly women carrying their husbands roscoes in their purse either.

NIB
12-24-2012, 01:06
I'm thinking someone should make a line of ammo specifically for defensive training schools like Gunsite, etc. Maybe figure out how to load 10 rounds or so per 100 in a mixed bag with either dud primers, or barely enough powder to exit the barrel, but not cycle the gun. Of course it would have to be clearly marked for training only. But it seems like the random failures would actually help during a defensive course.

I'm sure you would have to figure out how to minimize the liability, like maybe anodize the brass red or something. But I'm thinking there wouldn't be a lot of liability because the only people buying it would know what it's for.

The reason I came up with the idea is because the guns I shoot regularly are so reliable, I don't get a lot of clearance practice. I've had my G27 for 5+ years and never had it jam.

Very bad idea because there is no formula that would guarantee that the bullet will exit and not cause a squib.

sum-dum-guy
12-24-2012, 01:31
If you preload multiple mags when you go to the range, just stick them randomly into a couple of the mags. So you don't know which mag has them or where they will be in the mag.

M2 Carbine
12-24-2012, 01:46
I load cases with only a primer, no bullet.

One way or the other I'll load the dud into the student's gun.

Here's how it goes, like a couple months ago with a lady student..

The student is shooting a 38 revolver that I had loaded.
She shoots twice, then the third time there's just a "pop". The student looks at me.
I say nothing.
The student pulls the trigger again and the next round fires.
I tell the student, "Shooting is over. I have to take you to the hospital. You fired the gun with a bullet stuck in the barrel from that dud round.".
Then we reviewed what she had already been told about a bullet being stuck in the barrel from a dud or squib load.


I have seen experienced shooters try to chamber a fresh round with a bullet stuck in the barrel, after firing a squib, or no powder load.
I stopped them by yelling, "Don't fire, you have a bullet stuck in the barrel".
The experienced shooter and another, near by, very experienced shooter did not believe me until they checked the barrel.
They asked me, "How did you know?"
I told them, "I heard the primer fire".


This is one reason I'm not a big fan of Tap, Rack and Fire.
It can be, Tap, Rack and Kaboom.


.

MadMonkey
12-24-2012, 01:48
"Now was this a training round or not... wish I hadn't accidentally dropped it into my good ammo..."

railfancwb
12-24-2012, 02:37
Buy bulk packs of .22LR and use in an appropriate clone or adapter. That will give ample failure clearing practice.

HerrGlock
12-24-2012, 02:57
Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills :)

Hauptmann6
12-24-2012, 04:19
Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills :)

That I've never had a problem with. The ONLY dud I've ever had was a winchester white box just after my frame upgrade. I was in the middle of a shoot. And I didn't tap rack bang. I waited dropped the mag and field stripped checked the barrel and went on.

Gallium
12-24-2012, 04:21
...

Turn around and do 20 push-ups then stand and engage targets from contact distance. Each time you have a FTF; tap, rack and assess!
...

Respectfully, he didn't say he wanted to work on his CPR/AED skillz. :tongueout::tongueout:

I don't think any 2 out of 3 of the YOUNG MEN (under 45) at my range(s) could knock out 12 pushups and live to talk about it. I myself once fancied the thought of doing 5 in a row, ....but a man has gotta know his limits. :supergrin:


And in agreement with you, in case it was missed: SNAP CAPS. Especially in a gun with tight tolerances (ie, 1911) after a few uses of snap caps, those snap caps really start binding up the action in ways unexpected (failures to feed, extract). 22LR dummy rounds also exhibit this, after a couple of primer strikes they get out of round and are harder to extract from the gun.

- G

Bren
12-24-2012, 06:13
I'm thinking someone should make a line of ammo specifically for defensive training schools like Gunsite, etc. Maybe figure out how to load 10 rounds or so per 100 in a mixed bag with either dud primers, or barely enough powder to exit the barrel, but not cycle the gun. Of course it would have to be clearly marked for training only. But it seems like the random failures would actually help during a defensive course.

NRA sells orange tipped dummy rounds - dummies have been used in training since long before you were born. I make my own, sometimes. it is both dangerous and pointless to make them blend with real ammo - if you want to be surprised, let someone else load your magazines, do it without looking, or, in a revolver, load one and spin the cylinder without looking. I have done plenty of training with randomly loaded dummies. In fact, in my NRA law enforcement instructor school, we randomly loaded dummies in our magazines pretty much all week.

No, you haven't discovered a new idea.

Bren
12-24-2012, 06:16
Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills :)

I don't usually choose S&B, but I have fired thousands of rounds of it in Glocks and never had a malfunction.

It mostly malfunctions on my Dillon when I try to reload their brass.

Patchman
12-24-2012, 06:26
Why not just stick a .40 SnapCap in the stack? That's what they did in the Personal Protection course I took. HH

Have someone else load all of your mags and add in a few snap caps.

Work the damn problem and stay in the fight!

Snap caps has worked for me. But sometimes i have to close my eyes when i load my mags so I don't know which round it is.

I vote for the snap caps too. Easier to identiy in a stressful situation.


Snap caps. Either have someone load your mag, or load it yourself with eyes closed.

But just knowing you're going to get a ammo malfunction, your mind is already thinking "tap & rack."

smokin762
12-24-2012, 06:31
I would also think on a manufacture’s standpoint, to make intention dummy rounds that look like real rounds, would be a liability problem for them. In this sue happy society that we live in all it would take, as one poster pointed out, for a person to mix their dummy rounds in with their live ammunition.

Chonny
12-24-2012, 06:38
Get someone to load 1000 9mm rounds and have 10-15% of them without primers and randomly load them in mags.

That is a decent training idea I hadnt thought of.

Sure you know youre doing malfunction drills but its better than nothing.

Kchur00
12-24-2012, 06:49
I sure hope you pulled the primer or fired it before reassembling the round.

A live primer will have enough force to lodged a bullet in your barrel. Been there, done that when I first started reloading. My one and only squib load in over 20 years of reloading (knock on wood).

Yes, I made sure to do this then tested them all before practicing with them. :thumbsup:

series1811
12-24-2012, 06:50
Not a new concept. When we were practicing failure drills with our pistols and with our ARs, we would randomly load dummy rounds into our magazines, and then exchange magazines with the agent next to you, to simulate unexpected FTFs to practice drills.

I don't know where they got the rounds, but they looked like the regular ones, except the primers looked different.

series1811
12-24-2012, 06:51
Not a new concept. When we were practicing failure drills with our pistols and with our ARs, twenty years ago, we would randomly load dummy rounds into our magazines, and then exchange magazines with the agent next to you, to simulate unexpected FTFs to practice drills.

I don't know where they got the rounds, but they looked like the regular ones, except the primers looked different.

Gallium
12-24-2012, 06:54
Not a new concept. When we were practicing failure drills with our pistols and with our ARs, twenty years ago, we would randomly load dummy rounds into our magazines, and then exchange magazines with the agent next to you, to simulate unexpected FTFs to practice drills.

I don't know where they got the rounds, but they looked like the regular ones, except the primers looked different.

How did you folks work on getting a double burst when only one shot was expected? :tongueout:

series1811
12-24-2012, 07:04
How did you folks work on getting a double burst when only one shot was expected? :tongueout:

It works for drills in semi-auto as well as select fire.

pmcjury
12-24-2012, 08:23
If you want your dummy rounds to look the same as your real ammo put some silicone in the primer pocket and load just a bullet. For training purposes it will look close enough but there is no possibility of a squib load and you can tell the difference if need be

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2

Cavalry Doc
12-24-2012, 08:34
I like to stick a piece of empty brass in the stack. Usually ends in a piece of brass out of battery, good clearing drill.

series1811
12-26-2012, 07:07
How did you folks work on getting a double burst when only one shot was expected? :tongueout:

I just realized what you meant. Oops! :supergrin:

Kingarthurhk
12-26-2012, 07:55
Why not just stick a .40 SnapCap in the stack? That's what they did in the Personal Protection course I took. HH

Yup. Get a group of snap caps, and randomly load your range magazines. That way while you are shooting you can see if you are attacked by the flinch monster and you can learn the art of "tap, rack, reaccess" Some places say, "reengage" But I am not a fan of that, if the threat is stopped why would you "reengage"?

There is nothing like a type 3 failure, where you have to lock the slide back, and rip out the magazine source and insert a fresh magazine. Though, that drill is hard to do without a nice hard double feed.

I guess, if you own an XD .45 Service model, you can do that without snap caps.:rofl:

Gallium
12-26-2012, 07:57
I just realized what you meant. Oops! :supergrin:


Figure I'd let it sit out there for a couple of days before I said anything. :wavey:

soflasmg
12-26-2012, 08:30
Put some fired brass in the mags randomly.

Will induce some good malfs, some will feed some will stovepipe etc... .

Good drill.

Kingarthurhk
12-26-2012, 08:32
Snap caps. Either have someone load your mag, or load it yourself with eyes closed.

But just knowing you're going to get a ammo malfunction, your mind is already thinking "tap & rack."

Eyes closed doesn't work that well, as there is a distinct feeling of plastic. What does help is handful of each and just throw them in the magazines as quickly as possible. Then take the range magazines out the next day. You won't remember where you put them.

Mrs.Cicero
12-26-2012, 09:15
Take some snap caps, a half dozen mags, and load half of them with all good ammo, and half with snap caps and good ammo in various orders. Toss mags in range bag, withdraw them randomly and use them. Problem solved.

I don't want bad ammo that looks like good ammo. Murphy will mix it up at the worst possible moment.

series1811
12-26-2012, 09:21
Figure I'd let it sit out there for a couple of days before I said anything. :wavey:

Life is crazy around the holidays around here. I'm luck if I make any sense at all. :supergrin:

Gallium
12-26-2012, 09:50
Eyes closed doesn't work that well, as there is a distinct feeling of plastic. What does help is handful of each and just throw them in the magazines as quickly as possible. Then take the range magazines out the next day. You won't remember where you put them.

I humbly submit (and I am only quoting yours because it is one of the most recent posts on the matter), that if anyone loads mags with live + dummy rounds, and when they "load and make ready", are they are actively in the process of shooting they know where the dummy rounds are,

1. The drill isn't set up correctly
2. The shooter (irrespective of the level of training) is not concentrating enough on the front sight, or threat, or finding cover etc.

Using dummy rounds to catch flinching only underscores the hidden problem - flinching is a clear indication of a lack of concentration, which is particularly critical for new shooters and for any type of discriminating precision shot.

:cool:

johnd
12-26-2012, 10:03
http://www.stactionpro.com/

real ammo cases for training as described here

Spiffums
12-26-2012, 10:32
Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills :)

Or Wolf/Tula! :rofl:

Seriously I get 1 outta every 50 rounds. Not that it's a biggy I just do the TDB and Im back to making racket!

Kingarthurhk
12-26-2012, 11:00
I humbly submit (and I am only quoting yours because it is one of the most recent posts on the matter), that if anyone loads mags with live + dummy rounds, and when they "load and make ready", are they are actively in the process of shooting they know where the dummy rounds are,

1. The drill isn't set up correctly
2. The shooter (irrespective of the level of training) is not concentrating enough on the front sight, or threat, or finding cover etc.

Using dummy rounds to catch flinching only underscores the hidden problem - flinching is a clear indication of a lack of concentration, which is particularly critical for new shooters and for any type of discriminating precision shot.

:cool:

Flinching is a subconcious thing and needs to be caught. The natural human reaction is to flinch because their is an explosion going off in your hand.

Snap caps will catch you flinching. They will teach you emergency drills. Beyond that, that is all they are good for.

NEOH212
12-26-2012, 11:15
Does anyone make training ammo that fails on purpose?

Wolf or Winchester White Box should fit the bill. :whistling:

A6Gator
12-27-2012, 07:15
Buy bulk packs of .22LR and use in an appropriate clone or adapter. That will give ample failure clearing practice.

Especially with Remington gold rimfire ammo. You can spend all day trying to make it work...:supergrin: