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barta
01-01-2013, 10:48
Has anyone else been thinking about this?

For years I have carried my pistol off duty/concealed carry-whatever. We've planned mentally/physically for the armed confrontation when we are out minding our own business but with all that is going on worldwide, I have been seriously thinking about the possibility of taking on multiple threats. A while back I started carrying an extra mag or mags and not only thinking in my mind where the threat could come from and what I'm going to do about it, but where are the "threats" going to come from and how do I react first-which could mean success or failure.

I switched from carrying my Glock 17 and started carrying my Glock 36 but with this scenario, I'm starting to go back to my Glock 17 as I can have 35 rnds on my person with just one extra mag-potentially.

Just curious if anyone else has given this any thought.

SCmasterblaster
01-01-2013, 10:58
I carry a G17 with 33 rounds of 9mm 115gr +p+ load also. It is a very reliable piece. :supergrin:

Bruce M
01-01-2013, 13:08
Some qualification courses for off duty handguns are exactly the same as for on duty guns and include shooting at multiple targets and having to reload during the qualification.

HKLovingIT
01-01-2013, 14:39
Has anyone else been thinking about this?

For years I have carried my pistol off duty/concealed carry-whatever. We've planned mentally/physically for the armed confrontation when we are out minding our own business but with all that is going on worldwide, I have been seriously thinking about the possibility of taking on multiple threats. A while back I started carrying an extra mag or mags and not only thinking in my mind where the threat could come from and what I'm going to do about it, but where are the "threats" going to come from and how do I react first-which could mean success or failure.

I switched from carrying my Glock 17 and started carrying my Glock 36 but with this scenario, I'm starting to go back to my Glock 17 as I can have 35 rnds on my person with just one extra mag-potentially.

Just curious if anyone else has given this any thought.


For a good while.

Reading the news around here and the police blotter seems to indicates that a large chunk of violent street crime in the cities close to where I live is perpetrated by more than one assailant.

If I take out of consideration incidents that happen in known "bad" neighborhoods, I can also see that it has spread to daylight incidents in formerly "nice" areas.

Such as, the downtown business and government district where all the court offices, banks, restaurants, etc. are located in the closest medium city to me. That area was super "safe" a couple years ago. Now, not so much.

Seems to be an ever increasing number of these types of incidents right in the middle of the work day. Increase in "pack attacks", etc. that are violent. Street robberies where the victim complies and gets shot anyway. Even some carjackings in broad daylight. Haven't seen that in a while.

Food for thought and definitely worth thinking about what to do.

First thing to do in my mind is that common sense indicates, at least for me, that those areas, if they continue to deteriorate, get added to the list of "bad" places that one should not go. Does that suck? Yep. But it's not my job to police those areas and as I don't live in them I have no reason to be there unless business takes me there.

So, I would rather take my business, lunch money and shopping money elsewhere that has a decreased chance of a negative situation when it is possible for me to do so.

For example, anyone want to hang out at the Inner Harbor in Baltimore after dark during the summer much? Not me. Same could be said for a lot of urban places these days that while never truly safe by any means, a few years ago were not seemingly so out of control.

Is that "surrendering" those areas to thugs and letting lawlessness prevail? I don't see it that way. I'm not a police officer and I have no obligation to pacify those areas. I do have an obligation to me and my family not to place us in areas or situations where bad things have a higher or high likelihood of happening when I have a choice. So I, and I think many others, vote with their feet and wallets.

When enough people with money to spend abandon going to such formerly "nice" areas, perhaps the city rulers will get the hint and get serious about providing law enforcement with the budget and man hours to do what needs doing. As long as the local gov in the municipalities around me only pay lip service, underfund law enforcement and continue to allow things to deteriorate, I will simply withdraw my business and moola from their city. I don't think I'm alone in that.

If they let the thugs run roughshod in the daylight streets, I don't see how they can reasonably expect to attract tourists, new businesses and workers. Which of course hurts their tax revenues, etc. I guess it's one of those situations where nothing will change until the pain of not changing exceeds the "pain" required to implement change and make the effort to improve the situation.

Sorry, I might have gone in a different direction of discussion with this, but it's part of what I've been thinking about on this whole topic

In terms of personal preps, it's one of the main reasons behind my rationale that the 9mm makes the best sense for me. I'm also thinking along the same lines as you with some of the issues you raise. I don't know that I have answers other than awareness and avoidance and trying to use common sense.

If I see three under privileged members of society hanging around the elevator entrance of the parking garage and my spidey sense goes off, I would be a fool to just march over there amongst them and enter the lion's den. Am I chicken? I don't think so. Others may call it different.

Let's face it, if you park your car around 12:00 PM and are walking from the garage to the restaurant where you have a lunch meeting and three thugs confront you in an armed attack/robbery, it's a pretty crappy situation. Avoid the situation if at all possible, even if that means high tailing it out of there or scratching that area off your list of places to go have lunch.

What to do indeed...

4Rules
01-01-2013, 14:47
I've been thinking that carrying two magazines is probably better than carrying just one.

mglindo
01-01-2013, 14:50
Just read a story today that mentioned that since the police are flooding crime areas in the city, that the criminals are starting to go to the suburban areas where there is less police protection. http://personalliberty.com/2013/01/01/crime-increasing-in-americas-suburbs/

The Fed
01-01-2013, 14:56
I'm thinking my .380 isn't enough gun. Of all of the self-defense shootings last year I can only one where it was enough to stop the perp.

About staying away from bad areas, Tampa has few :). Florida Avenue, Nebraska Avenue, Armenia Avenue. All areas you would be dead caught there at night.

F350
01-01-2013, 15:24
Has anyone else been thinking about this?

For years I have carried my pistol off duty/concealed carry-whatever. We've planned mentally/physically for the armed confrontation when we are out minding our own business but with all that is going on worldwide, I have been seriously thinking about the possibility of taking on multiple threats. A while back I started carrying an extra mag or mags and not only thinking in my mind where the threat could come from and what I'm going to do about it, but where are the "threats" going to come from and how do I react first-which could mean success or failure.

I switched from carrying my Glock 17 and started carrying my Glock 36 but with this scenario, I'm starting to go back to my Glock 17 as I can have 35 rnds on my person with just one extra mag-potentially.

Just curious if anyone else has given this any thought.

For many years now I have carried a Para-Ordnance P-14 (5" 13+1 1911 .45) and 2 extra mags. Yea I have thought about it.

SCmasterblaster
01-01-2013, 15:53
I've been thinking that carrying two magazines is probably better than carrying just one.

I carry a single G17 mag in my back pocket, and it is quite a load.

barta
01-01-2013, 16:43
I know a local higher up in the Sheriff's Office who carries one on his ankle and hip with one in his pocket everywhere he goes. The line from The Unforgiven movie about not getting killed by lack of shooting back comes to mind.

I'm glad to hear people are seriously considering this. We need to be a more pro-active society rather than the same knee jerk society that we have become. I recently saw a pic of an Israeili elementary school teacher with a rifle slung while escorting her children on a fieldtrip. They know what it means to play for keeps.

Deployment Solu
01-01-2013, 19:51
My EDC weapon and mags I carry off-duty is the same as on duty. Three spare mags of 20 rds. (yes, it is a FNH 5.7 pistol). The bad guys don't care if you are on shift or on your own!!!!

HarleyGuy
01-01-2013, 21:06
My EDC weapon and mags I carry off-duty is the same as on duty. Three spare mags of 20 rds. (yes, it is a FNH 5.7 pistol). The bad guys don't care if you are on shift or on your own!!!!

I haven't bought a new handgun in several years but the FNH 5.7x28 sure caught my eye.
However, my concern of overpenetration for concealed carry, and it being too expensive for "plinking" convinced me to pass on it.
Should I reconsider?

For about a year I've been slacking, only carrying a Kel-Tec .32 pocket pistol as opposed to my G-27 Glock or Kimber Ultra so I guess I need to reconsider that also.

fastbolt
01-02-2013, 11:17
Some qualification courses for off duty handguns are exactly the same as for on duty guns and include shooting at multiple targets and having to reload during the qualification.

Not uncommon. ;)

These ought to include (at least upon occasion) not only transitioning among 1, 2 or even multiple Threat Targets, but require the person qualifying on the course to correctly identify Non-Threat/No-Shoot situations (hostages, unarmed 'surprise' persons, plainclothes/UC cops, etc).

Full-size picture targets can be found for this purpose. The full color targets can make it surprisingly more difficult at times (color shading, bright distracting colors, blending, shadows, etc).

Having to navigate a course of fire in reduced/low light, moving among light & shadow, can impress upon someone the importance of having & controlling a light source (hand held flashlight).

The multiple Threat and/or Non-Threat targets may require shooter movement in order to "encounter" and see them, too.

Judgement and good decision-making (which requires good awareness & observation) is essential & critical.

Back when we carried 6-shot revolvers we "planned" for encountering the potential of more than a single armed "threat", or attacker. Awareness, mindset, tactics and a good foundation skillset.

When we transitioned to hi-cap 9mm's some folks liked the idea of not having to load (reload) as quickly. Granted, also going from carrying 18 to 43 total rounds on the gun belt made some folks feel better. Just having the ability to make more & faster "misses" isn't a good thing, though.

It's not the capacity. Not exclusively, anyway. It's the shooter.

I finished my career carrying an issued compact 9+1 .40 for while, and then a compact 7+1 .45 (another guy really wanted to carry the little .40, and they were out of inventory at that moment, so I arranged to exchange mine for his issued .45). I didn't feel any less equipped or prepared carrying the compact guns versus the "duty size" 11+1 & 8+1 versions.

Someone wanting to "prepare" might consider investing in more training. ;) It's just all about caliber or capacity.

railfancwb
01-02-2013, 11:29
Anyone familiar with Robert A Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil"? One of the subthreads has "abandoned areas" in the cities where law enforcement has given up and people are on their own. Interestingly the rich people use sociopath killers from the prisons paroled to them as bodyguards.


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fastbolt
01-02-2013, 11:45
I'm thinking my .380 isn't enough gun.

Depends (of course).

During a couple of in-service training classes last year I listened to a number of instances where a cop was able to employ a secondary/backup .38 or .380 to successfully stop 1, 2 and even 3 attackers. Placement & close range seems to have been involved.

In one instance, where an off-duty deputy sheriff encountered an armed robber at a convenience store, the deputy was reported to later remark something to the effect that the 5-shot capacity of his .38 snub would be a cause for concern if involved in an extended shooting incident. Obviously.

On the other hand, the ubiquitous 5-shot snub has been successfully used to stop those 1, 2 or even 3 armed attackers ... and I can remember the same thing said when 6-shot duty revolvers were commonly carried. Depends ... on the revolver shooter and the circumstances.

Most of the experienced firearms instructors I know who often carry either a 5-shot .38 or one of the small 6 or 7-shot .380s have often said that they realize the capacity of their diminutive off-duty weapons pretty much restricts them to being able to effectively use them against only 1-2 attackers.

Naturally, missing the intended threat target, and/or realizing poor shot placement, can reduce the usefulness and effectiveness. Of course, the same thing can also be said of larger caliber weapons that still only have 7-9 round capacities, too.

As I've said in other posts, I've often carried one of my several J-frames as off-duty (and now retirement) weapons. They obviously wouldn't be my first choice for "primary" duty weapons, back when I was being continually dispatched to reported troublesome situations, or managing a daily caseload that constantly put me in places and situations where persons might be suspected of criminal activities and being armed.

Nowadays? I still carry one of my 9's, .40's or .45's, depending on my planned activities and areas of travel, but I still carry one of my J's more often than not ... and I've even added a Ruger LCP .380 to my retirement CCP weapons. (Once the little LCP demonstrated its surprising inherent practical accuracy in my hands, and that it was reliable with 3 different types of hollowpoints I might use. ;) )

So ... "preparing" for "multiple threats"?

Still the same training, practice, maintenance of mindset and considering the practice & application of tactics as back when I was working. The "equipment" is the lesser part of that "preparation" ... just speaking for me.

vafish
01-02-2013, 15:46
Has anyone else been thinking about this?

.....

Just curious if anyone else has given this any thought.

Only for the last 11 or so years.

I stopped carrying a g36 and started carrying a g17 for the extra capacity. Now I carry a g23 as a compromise.


posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.

Dogbite
01-02-2013, 19:38
I manage a pawn shop, and I carry a G23 and a reload. Many times I will carry a bug as well. I often think about multiple attackers. Many times bad guys come in pairs. Its very common. I usually keep several shotguns loaded and at the ready as well. Well I am away from the shop, I am ultra aware of anyone coming near me.

collim1
01-03-2013, 09:13
I stopped carrying my jframe off duty as a primary due to concerns from multiple attackers and being caught in the middle of an active shooter scenario.

I started carrying a P239 9mm with a spare mag instead of the jframe with a speed strip. I realize the P239 is still not a capacity monster, but it carries 9 in the gun with 8 in a spare mag compared to the 5 and 5 in the jframe.

Practice is the number key. If you dont practice your body's natural tendency to get tunnel vision will be hard to overcome.

Practice shooting two and three targets that are staggered in distance and not set right next to each other. Also practice scanning left and right and behind you when the shooting stops (maintain muzzle downrane when doing so). Practice reloading when the threat is not visible and never reholster an empty gun!

Having three targets set up with three different mixed visible indicators is good as well. Have one target have a number on it, another have a shape, and another be colored. Have your range partner call the cue and fire on that target. It makes you identify the target while trying to shoot. When you get better start calling out multiple targets in rapid succession.

Anything you can do to make you identify and fire on multiple targets quickly will help adjust you to identifying multiple threats.

Its harder than it sounds, and its good practice.

People's idea of the normal threat is changing due to recent events. The one attacker from 7 yards or less scenario still needs to be practiced, but imagine a suspect armed with a rifle shooting inside walmart from distances longer than 25yds away. It changes the way you need to be training.

A Glock 34 with 3 spare mags sounds like a great choice for that scenario, the question is can you carry it daily concealed?

Lior
01-03-2013, 09:29
People who shoot pistols competitively may be in a good position to think about this issue. One disadvantage that shooting matches have compared to real life is that in matches the other targets do not run away after you shoot down the first.

What I am alluding to is to get into the shooting sports to learn target acquisition and switching under some amount of stress. Given that and decent situation awareness and combat mindset, most semiauto pistols should serve you well enough for you to survive the day.

cowboy1964
01-03-2013, 09:44
"Multiple threats" and "multiple mags" are two distinct, yet slightly overlapping topics. You should always have a spare mag even if you knew you would only ever face one attacker wielding a club. The mag in the gun can get dumped (accidentally, or trying to clear a jam. etc).

The Retired Sarge
01-03-2013, 10:07
For years I naturally carried two spare magazines on uniformed duty. Off duty I always carried one spare mag. With the increase of incidents such as flash mobs and the "knockout king game" I am back to carrying 9mm for capacity with two spares at all times and upped my training. It is sad that as violence increases the political response is to limit our means of defense. Bill

SCmasterblaster
01-03-2013, 10:37
Anyone familiar with Robert A Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil"? One of the subthreads has "abandoned areas" in the cities where law enforcement has given up and people are on their own. Interestingly the rich people use sociopath killers from the prisons paroled to them as bodyguards.


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I am glad that that is a work of fiction, not real life.

janice6
01-03-2013, 10:55
Everybody thinks of this.

Every scenario with multiple assailants, that require more ammunition to be carried, can be expanded to even more assailants requiring even more rounds, to absurdity.

You have to decide at what point you simply cannot realistically engage that many BG's at once. Determine at what point you simply take as many with you as you can. it may get to this. Your best bet may be to just cut and run. No problem with being smart.

Accuracy, attitude and intelligence will get you farther than "just more ammo".

When on "car trips", I have a G27 available for "backup".

FireForged
01-03-2013, 12:19
I have 5 shots of 38 special, 2 at the primary threat and 3 more to help me get away.