AN ARMY OUTGUNNED Physics Demands A New Basic Combat Weapon [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : AN ARMY OUTGUNNED Physics Demands A New Basic Combat Weapon


Anglin_AZ
01-04-2013, 00:28
It looks like I may be building my next AR on a 6.5 caliber platform. Interesting read.

http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20120831_art004.pdf

TactiCool
01-04-2013, 00:46
This article reminds me of that old .280 intermediate round the Brits developed in the late '40's. 'Murica wasn't interested at the time.

AK_Stick
01-04-2013, 00:46
Not going to happen

Harper
01-04-2013, 01:04
Not going to happen

Why not? It sounds like a good cartridge. It'd be decent for deer hunting too.

NIB
01-04-2013, 01:26
Any caliber change would have to encompass all of NATO no matter how much anyone thinks NATO is outdated. Whatever anyone thinks of NATO, we still have many friendly nations under it. Just because it works fine in the AR platform doesn't mean it will work in the various other NATO rifles. The SA-80 comes to mind which took years as well as for H&K to uncluster pluck it. Plus the budget will no longer be there for any new caliber, rifle, or sidearm for years to come.

Ragnar
01-04-2013, 03:56
Not going to happen

Correct. We are so married to the AR and its 5.56mm round that we can't just drop it.

General MacArthur had the same issue when the M1 Garand was being developed. The rifle was designed for a new .276 cartridge but there were vast stocks of .30-06 ammunition sitting around and he ordered the Garand to be made in .30 cal.

mrmedina
01-04-2013, 05:01
Military has talking this game for ten years+. I just believe that the old (DOD)guard won't allow anything but M-16s. But the new thinking is a different weapon and caliber.

Remember the US Army only allowed Springfield Trap-door single shot rifles. But Sitting Bull and friends showed that was a mistake.

Bren
01-04-2013, 05:08
An Army Outgunned? That will come as news to the Army. A gun guy or two in the Army want a cooler new gun. That's about all.

If they want to change the tactics and marksmanship training to go along, then they might be headed somewhere.

m2hmghb
01-04-2013, 05:37
The M1 Garand was in .276 Pedersen and held 10 rounds, Douglas MacArthur ordered it redesigned in 30-06 to simplify logistics as well as make use of available war stocks and manufacturing capabilities. The same holds true of the 5.56. With the advent of OTM bullets being approved by JAG there is a decent round available for longer ranges. The Army will never wholly switch to a new caliber, but certain units may, special forces have been experimenting with things like this for a while now.

BlackPaladin
01-04-2013, 06:09
Simply going to restate NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. 2 times a year the military lackies say they want to evaluate some new wing ding rife and cartridge. They never actually buy any of them, they just like to play with the test products.

GlockinNJ
01-04-2013, 06:26
I just read about LWRCI's Six8 in GNA. Sounds like it was made to answer this call.

http://www.lwrci.com/articles/SGNLWRCsix8.pdf

But I agree that it's probably easier to colonize Mars than change the primary weapon/caliber of the US military. The retooling of production facilities and equipment and associated systems would be enormous and not something Uncle Sam is willing to undertake, especially now that we are facing massive cuts in the DoD budget.

The .223 works good enough.

KalashniKEV
01-04-2013, 07:17
Physics demands it!

...too bad no one else does.

Next...

M&P15T
01-04-2013, 08:03
Let's worry about producing enough 5.56, before we go running off half cocked about another "new" cartridge.

Let's get civilian supplies of M193 rolling smoothly first.

aircarver
01-04-2013, 08:12
Seems to me ballistics figured little in the adoption of 5.56 ...


Logistics ruled: How many rounds can you cram in a boxcar ?

.

KalashniKEV
01-04-2013, 08:32
Logistics ruled: How many rounds can you cram in a boxcar ?



They still do... and always will.

SC Tiger
01-04-2013, 08:47
The M1 Garand was in .276 Pedersen and held 10 rounds, Douglas MacArthur ordered it redesigned in 30-06 to simplify logistics as well as make use of available war stocks and manufacturing capabilities. The same holds true of the 5.56. With the advent of OTM bullets being approved by JAG there is a decent round available for longer ranges. The Army will never wholly switch to a new caliber, but certain units may, special forces have been experimenting with things like this for a while now.

I have heard the US Military had 1 billion rounds of .30-06 in stock at that time. When you think of it like that and figure in that this was right before WWII I believe, keeping the same caliber made sense.

BigDeeeeeeee
01-04-2013, 09:02
6.5 mpc, 5.56 based case, same bolt, same magazines, same capacity. :dunno:

http://sskindustries.com/6-5-mpc

harlenm
01-04-2013, 09:12
.300 blackout, just need a new barrel in current ARs.

banger
01-04-2013, 09:16
Why won't it happen?

Quite literally MILLIONS of M-16 rifles in service.

BILLIONS on rounds in armories across the Globe.

Dozen of countries wedded to the 556 platform.

Millions of magazines, spare parts and accessories and spares in inventory.

Countless dollars to obsolete what is considered by many to be a perfectly adequate system.

I just don't see it happening.

Lastly, if you look at the tables provided in the initial article, the new caliber simply does not offer a compelling enough reason to warrant a system wide re-arm.

Sorry.

A closing thought, further consider that the nation is already over 16 TRILLION Dollars in debt...Where would the money come from?...The Chinese...

brisk21
01-04-2013, 09:26
6.8 SPC seems like a good solution to me. Then let me have all the 5.56!!!

cowboy1964
01-04-2013, 09:42
I thought the DI issue was pretty much moot these days? Even if it isn't, the AR has piston systems available. Has nothing to do with caliber.

collim1
01-04-2013, 10:27
Makes no darn sense to me, they are killing and maiming our boys left and right with IED's full of old lead wheel weights, ball bearing, and broken glass yet heaven forbid we shoot back with a 75g Hornady TAP round.

Ban IED's cause they cause undue suffering and see if our enemy gives a rat's butt.

AK_Stick
01-04-2013, 11:29
.300 blackout, just need a new barrel in current ARs.

The blackout is a great round for shooting surpressed, but it's performance suffers even more than 5.56 as range extends.

ray9898
01-04-2013, 13:19
Not going to happen. The 5.56 fills the role nicely. I don't even want to think of the cost of replacing every rifle in service, replacing the stock of spare parts along with all the 5.56 rounds in armories around the world.

AK_Stick
01-04-2013, 13:34
If they really wanted a new round, they would have adopted the 6.8 instead, after they'd purchased thousands of rifles and tons of ammo, they gave it up.

countrygun
01-04-2013, 13:44
Seems to me ballistics figured little in the adoption of 5.56 ...


Logistics ruled: How many rounds can you cram in a boxcar ?

.

I can remember my Dad, when the military started the 5,56 adoption process. He pointed out that Melvin Johnson (who invented the rifle that was the Garand's biggest competition) had developed a "22'' by necking down the .30 carbine round. If the Army wanted a special light gun for romping in the jungle they could just rebarrel all the carbines to the .22 Johnson round use the same mags and all the rest. Might even be able to reduce the rate of fire from the M-2s ferocious level as well.

Dad figured it was too practical to do it that way.

SunsetMan
01-04-2013, 13:47
Anyone know which has become more popular from a civilian standpoint, 6.8 or 6.5?

Rabbi
01-04-2013, 13:52
There really doesnt exist any novel and/or value based ways to send 5.56 down range and that is what we are going to be shooting people with for a while to come.

AK_Stick
01-04-2013, 14:08
Anyone know which has become more popular from a civilian standpoint, 6.8 or 6.5?

6.8 is the leading alternate caliber.

300 blk out is quickly catching up.

6.5 is probably number 3.

nursetim
01-04-2013, 14:30
If anything HWSNBN will switch the Armed Forces to less than lethal ammo so we don't hurt bad people to badly.:upeyes: be happy we still have a lethal weapons platform whatever the caliber.

TSAX
01-04-2013, 14:37
Changing from the 5.56 cartridge will happen, maybe not in my lifetime but when we do it will be moving to these options :supergrin:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMivH3Hq1q8DZNrOEifuZXVqik02g-30ijm66Z8mBj4PVYydK8 (http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbo=d&biw=801&bih=565&tbm=isch&tbnid=1Xmiordz3TIcmM:&imgrefurl=http://www.startyournovel.com/2012/07/what-can-gene-roddenberry-teach-you.html&docid=rQeZQ_eezVYPjM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-biy1zxoms8k/UA17msGD1WI/AAAAAAAACRo/Z9rkSnk44vk/s1600/g-rodd_phasers2.jpg&w=1030&h=766&ei=ekvnUJPPFLHliQKMv4CYCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=181&vpy=168&dur=2087&hovh=194&hovw=260&tx=158&ty=100&sig=108810756754553796892&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=201&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:160)




:50cal:

Snowman92D
01-04-2013, 15:07
Why won't it happen?

Quite literally MILLIONS of M-16 rifles in service.

BILLIONS on rounds in armories across the Globe.

Dozen of countries wedded to the 556 platform.

Millions of magazines, spare parts and accessories and spares in inventory.

Countless dollars to obsolete what is considered by many to be a perfectly adequate system.

I just don't see it happening.

Lastly, if you look at the tables provided in the initial article, the new caliber simply does not offer a compelling enough reason to warrant a system wide re-arm.

Sorry.

A closing thought, further consider that the nation is already over 16 TRILLION Dollars in debt...Where would the money come from?...The Chinese...

:goodpost:

EdTracker
01-04-2013, 16:05
There really doesnt exist any novel and/or value based ways to send 5.56 down range and that is what we are going to be shooting people with for a while to come.

The two closest things that I have read about...

Binary propellent ammunition (think superformance ammo) on steroids. Secondary propellent requires peak pressures from primary propellent to ignite, this mellows out the pressure spike. Significantly increased velocity in shorter barrels.

Semi-caseless ammunition. Basically only the base of the cartridge is brass the rest is an injection molded propellent. Case-less ammo was already tested but improved variants have already improved upon the concept. Lighter weight ammo, less cost

Snaps
01-04-2013, 16:12
So the army is outgunned, it's cool the Marines are on the same side