Warning about E15 gasoline AAA says--- [Archive] - Glock Talk

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lethal tupperwa
01-04-2013, 08:51
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/

paynter2
01-04-2013, 09:02
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/

I saw that interview last weekend - this morning I posted the link on another ethanol thread.

Toward the end of the video, the interviewer says you can find comparisons in mileage, between gasoline and ethanol, on the AAA web site. I could not find those comparisons.

Maybe another GT'er can find that and post a link?

John Rambo
01-04-2013, 09:04
E10 gasoline already eats away seals, especially in motorcycles where you don't pump as much and end up getting too much ethanol.

Putting ethanol in our gas was a horrible move and is going to cause more and more problems for us.

RenoF250
01-04-2013, 09:09
E10 gasoline already eats away seals, especially in motorcycles where you don't pump as much and end up getting too much ethanol.

Putting ethanol in our gas was a horrible move and is going to cause more and more problems for us.

Yes, my 2011 Hyundai says in the manual not to use more than E10. Thanks moron government.

coastal4974
01-04-2013, 09:20
I'm from the gubmint, I'm here to help. :wavey:

Reswob
01-04-2013, 09:23
This isn't news. Most of us have known ethanol was bad for your car ever since the hippies started pushing it a few years back.

blk69stang
01-04-2013, 10:31
I read something a while back about "washing" ethanol out of pump gas. The theory was that since ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts/absorbs water), that by adding water to the gasoline and mixing, the ethanol would bind to the water and then settle out, leaving ethanol free gasoline floating on the top.

The theory is sound, as I do exactly that same process when I make biodiesel at home (only I'm washing out it's cousin Methanol).

My only issue is the possibility of dissolving water into the gasoline that wouldn't settle out. With biodiesel, I have to "dry" the fuel to remove the dissolved water. With biodiesel, which doesn't readily evaporate, it's pretty easy to do- just heat the bioD and then increasing its surface area (usally by pumping the bioD through a sprinkler head or similar) so that the water can evaporate. Won't work with gasoline though, as the gasoline would evaporate more readily than the water.

Distill out the gasoline maybe? Chemical drying agent that would bond with the water and settle out?

Thoughts?

goldenlight
01-04-2013, 12:15
E10 gasoline already eats away seals, especially in motorcycles where you don't pump as much and end up getting too much ethanol.

Putting ethanol in our gas was a horrible move and is going to cause more and more problems for us.

In my state the farm lobby was trying to shove through a bill to require farking 20% Ethanol in ALL of the motor vehicle fuel sold in the state.:steamed::steamed::steamed:

The bill was defeated, but there will be another one in the current legislative session.:steamed:

elsolo
01-04-2013, 12:31
This isn't news. Most of us have known ethanol was bad for your car ever since the hippies started pushing it a few years back.

Don't blame the tree huggers on this one, using ethanol for fuel increases crude oil consumption and environmentalists are not promoting it.
Pimental, the Cornell scientist, has been required reading on the topic for 20 yrs.

Look at the giant corn and chemical lobby:
Monsanto, DuPont, ADM, etc.

They are making billions off this, at the expense of everybody else in America.

BigMoneyGrip
01-04-2013, 12:43
I read something a while back about "washing" ethanol out of pump gas. The theory was that since ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts/absorbs water), that by adding water to the gasoline and mixing, the ethanol would bind to the water and then settle out, leaving ethanol free gasoline floating on the top.

The theory is sound, as I do exactly that same process when I make biodiesel at home (only I'm washing out it's cousin Methanol).

My only issue is the possibility of dissolving water into the gasoline that wouldn't settle out. With biodiesel, I have to "dry" the fuel to remove the dissolved water. With biodiesel, which doesn't readily evaporate, it's pretty easy to do- just heat the bioD and then increasing its surface area (usally by pumping the bioD through a sprinkler head or similar) so that the water can evaporate. Won't work with gasoline though, as the gasoline would evaporate more readily than the water.

Distill out the gasoline maybe? Chemical drying agent that would bond with the water and settle out?

Thoughts?
I've never believed this. If you take out the ethanol, you're also taking out some of the octane. How much octane do you lose?

SC Tiger
01-04-2013, 13:12
E10 gasoline already eats away seals, especially in motorcycles where you don't pump as much and end up getting too much ethanol.

Putting ethanol in our gas was a horrible move and is going to cause more and more problems for us.

My Honda is the same way. Supposedly Honda (and Hyundai it appears) have determined that anything over 10% ethanol is bad for the car. Honda will not flex-fuel (ie approve Ethanol) in any of their cars for that reason.

lethal tupperwa
01-04-2013, 13:17
One car dealer has the instrument to measure ethanol (supposed to be 10% in this state)in the tank.

They have found some cars with 20% or more.

blk69stang
01-04-2013, 13:19
I've never believed this. If you take out the ethanol, you're also taking out some of the octane. How much octane do you lose?


Well, while I know what you're getting at (you mean it is reducing the fuel's anti-knock properties), the statement about losing "octane" is not exactly right.

Ethanol is resistant to "knocking", so removing it might reduce the "anti-knock index" of the remaining gasoline, thus reducing its octane RATING.

However, just for claritity's sake, "octane" is a chemical compound in gasoline, while "octane rating" describes the anti-knock properties of gasoline that are often influenced by the amound of "octane" (chemical) that is present in the gasoline. Ethanol is not "octane" per se, but because it has a higher autoignition temperature, it has a similar effect on gasoline as "octane" (chemical) does, thus adding ethanol will increase the "octane RATING" of gasoline.


Semantics aside, that is a good point that I did not consider. I would imagine though that the octane rating of washed fuel could not be reduced by more than the percentage of ethanol that was present to begin with. I.E., washing the ethanol out of E15 gasoline could not lower the octane rating more than 15%. In 87 octane, that would be 13 point decrease (theoretical max) making it come out to 74 octane. 93 hi-test would lose 14, bringing it to 79 octane.

These numbers are worst-case scenarios of course, and would only hold true for an "infinitely high anti-knock index" of ethanol, which of course it doesn't have.

Okay, my google-fu shows Ethanol with an "octane rating" of 99. So, lets let the math do the work for us. I used a weighted average calculator, and by my math it works out that in 87 octane E15, the remaining gasoline would be about 85 octane. In 93 hi-test E15, the remaining gasoline would be 92 octane.

So yeah, you'd lose a point or two of octane rating, but I think that it would be negligible. If you were really concerned about it, you could blend back in 15% 100LL AvGas (which is Ethanol-free, and roughly the same octane rating as Ethanol). Of course, the small amount of lead would wreck the catalytic converter, so this should be reserved for SHTF or pre-emissions vehicles.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 13:30
Okay, my google-fu shows Ethanol with an "octane rating" of 99. So, lets let the math do the work for us. I used a weighted average calculator, and by my math it works out that in 87 octane E15, the remaining gasoline would be about 85 octane. In 93 hi-test E15, the remaining gasoline would be 92 octane.


E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.

RenoF250
01-04-2013, 13:48
E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.

What?? I think it is pretty widely accepted that Ethanol reduces power/mileage.

elsolo
01-04-2013, 13:52
E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.


unless you have very high compression, does the above even make a difference?

What about the BTU difference?

Spiffums
01-04-2013, 14:33
I remember Dad bought a new 1986 Bronco II. That was the 1st year that all of them came with EFI. Raceway built a new station here that had Ethanol gas and it was always cheaper......even when gas was under a dollar a gallon. It burned out the injectors in the Bronco in about 8 months.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 15:07
What?? I think it is pretty widely accepted that Ethanol reduces power/mileage.

Those people that accept that are very wrong. Just because a lot of people accept something that is incorrect does not make it correct.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 15:10
unless you have very high compression, does the above even make a difference?

I am talking about making power. Dyanamic compression ratio is one of the ways to make that power and when higher octane equivalent fuel is needed. You wont make more power throwing 104 octane unleaded race fuel in your Prius.

What about the BTU difference?

You increase fuel supply by about 30% (which also increases the amount of alcohol the has a phase change making it even more effective at intake charge cooling)

DanaT
01-04-2013, 15:13
What?? I think it is pretty widely accepted that Ethanol reduces power/mileage.

So widely "accepted" that the Germans figured out in WWII that ethanol injection made more power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50

manfred the wonder d
01-04-2013, 15:42
!0 to 1 DanaT is from one of those states big into selling corn.

elsolo
01-04-2013, 15:50
I am talking about making power. Dyanamic compression ratio is one of the ways to make that power and when higher octane equivalent fuel is needed. You wont make more power throwing 104 octane unleaded race fuel in your Prius.



You increase fuel supply by about 30% (which also increases the amount of alcohol the has a phase change making it even more effective at intake charge cooling)

Since this thread was about pump gas, I thought we were talking about street cars that don't run 14:1 compression or heat soaking power adders.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 15:54
Since this thread was about pump gas, I thought we were talking about street cars that don't run 14:1 compression or heat soaking power adders.

E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.

How many Prii need 104 04 octane unleaded?

But, you still make more power (assuming the EFI is programmed to take advantage of E85) even without high compression and/or boost. The EMS can be much more agressive with timing with any high octane equivalent fuel and the latent heat of evaporation.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 15:56
!0 to 1 DanaT is from one of those states big into selling corn.

Lets bet $1M then.

When are you wiring me my money?

I like E85 because it is $3/gal race fuel instead of about $8/gal for 104 unleaded. And it still makes more power than 104 unleaded.

elsolo
01-04-2013, 16:04
So widely "accepted" that the Germans figured out in WWII that ethanol injection made more power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50

What in the world does methanol/water injection for forced induction engines with too high of an intake charge temperature have anything to do with the topic at hand?

You take a car made to run on gas, run it with 15% ethanol, it will make less power.

Flying-Dutchman
01-04-2013, 16:04
This is another example of Government against the will of the people.

No one wants this s#$% especially in 2 stroke engines plus it is a total scam as it takes more energy to make than it produces.

Not to mention the increased cost of food.

The Fed
01-04-2013, 16:05
OK, I have a high compression engine (10.5) that also has a turbocharger. On top of that I have an aftermarket ECU tune which REQUIRES 93 octane. If I use one of the "ethanol treatment" products out there, like the Sta-Bil one that does not "preserve" gasoline will it lower my octane? The performance tune (which adds 50% more boost) will not allow the timing to back up enough to prevent detonation.

MulletLoad
01-04-2013, 16:09
Total crap destroyed untold numbers of outboards and boat tanks and fuel systems since it was introduced as a Presidential Primary welfare subsidy.

Too bad somebody didn't catch some corn farmer in front of his $50K truck for a YouTube video chanting, "I gots Obama corn, I gots Obama corn, I'm voting Obama because he gives me money fo' my corn, everyone around here gets money fo' their corn". (I know it's the same with repubs)

czsmithGT
01-04-2013, 16:16
E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.

You can make somewhat more power on a modified street car engine, but you get much worse mileage because of the lower energy content per gallon. E85 without ethanol subsidies from the government makes no economic sense whatsoever.

czsmithGT
01-04-2013, 16:20
My Honda is the same way. Supposedly Honda (and Hyundai it appears) have determined that anything over 10% ethanol is bad for the car. Honda will not flex-fuel (ie approve Ethanol) in any of their cars for that reason.

Honda makes flex fuel cars for sale in Brazil.

czsmithGT
01-04-2013, 16:23
I read something a while back about "washing" ethanol out of pump gas. The theory was that since ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts/absorbs water), that by adding water to the gasoline and mixing, the ethanol would bind to the water and then settle out, leaving ethanol free gasoline floating on the top.

The theory is sound, as I do exactly that same process when I make biodiesel at home (only I'm washing out it's cousin Methanol).

My only issue is the possibility of dissolving water into the gasoline that wouldn't settle out. With biodiesel, I have to "dry" the fuel to remove the dissolved water. With biodiesel, which doesn't readily evaporate, it's pretty easy to do- just heat the bioD and then increasing its surface area (usally by pumping the bioD through a sprinkler head or similar) so that the water can evaporate. Won't work with gasoline though, as the gasoline would evaporate more readily than the water.

Distill out the gasoline maybe? Chemical drying agent that would bond with the water and settle out?

Thoughts?

You are paying for the ethanol in E10. Washing it out and throwing it away would be economically unsound.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 16:25
You can make somewhat more power on a modified street car engine, but you get much worse mileage because of the lower energy content per gallon. E85 without ethanol subsidies from the government makes no economic sense whatsoever.

E85 uses about 25-30% more fuel UNLESS you use it in a lean burn condition (which you can because of the high octane equivalent). So, if I want 105 octane equivalent fuelm I can spend around $3 a gallon, and assuming using 35% more, I am spending the equivalent of $4 per gallon gasoline. 104 octane unleaded costs around $8/gallon.


How does it not
1) make economic sense to use a fuel that costs half as much
2) use a fuel that is readily available

So, the solution to reasonably priced, high octane equivalent fuel is E85.

Lastly, if I were worried about consumption, I would be driving a Prius.

JDennis
01-04-2013, 16:42
You can make somewhat more power on a modified street car engine, but you get much worse mileage because of the lower energy content per gallon. E85 without ethanol subsidies from the government makes no economic sense whatsoever.

You will only make more power in a modified street motor with higher compression (whether piston, or forced induction) A motor with 9:1 vs 11:1 + makes the difference in octane. A lower compression motor will make more power on 87 than 93. On high compression motors has to do with the flash point of the fuel depending on octane. A high compression motor on a low octane will cause the fuel in the chamber to pre-ignite do to the higher cylinder pressure. On higher octane with lower flash point will ignite at proper time creating maximum volumetric efficiency. Ethanol blends are more corrosive and harder on components where raw fuel contacts such as pumps, injectors and lines. E85 is a great alternative for the hotrodder but need proper seals and materials that wont be destroyed by the ethanol. Also the burn rate is faster so need roughly 15-20% more fuel. I run my centrifugal blown street mustang on e-85. Almost 900 hp to the tires and 2.60 or so per gallon. Race fuel i would get about 14mpg, I am at 10-11 depending on the season with e-85. Definitely saves money to run E-85

DanaT
01-04-2013, 16:54
You will only make more power in a modified street motor with higher compression (whether piston, or forced induction) A motor with 9:1 vs 11:1 + makes the difference in octane.

You are forgetting how much more aggressive timing can be used. This helps most engines especially at low RPM.

paynter2
01-04-2013, 17:48
Lets bet $1M then.

When are you wiring me my money?

I like E85 because it is $3/gal race fuel instead of about $8/gal for 104 unleaded. And it still makes more power than 104 unleaded.

Hey Dana - before we plunk down the $1M. I would like you to show me some closed loop testing between E10 and 100% regular, 87 octane, gasoline.

Can you come up with those numbers? I'm talking about using the same car with a quart or 1/2 gallon or what ever of fuel - running on the same track on the same day. Who goes the farthest and by how much.

Ethanol manufactures and scientists at land grant universities and ethanol industry talking heads won't provide me with that information. I wonder why?

I'm thinking that test has been done - many times. Why don't we see those results? I'm not talking about theoretical results here... I'm talking measurable results. Real world results. I wonder why we never see such a thing... Don't you think that if E10 was producing similar mileage that we would be inundated with results?

Where's the beef?

JDennis
01-04-2013, 18:00
You are forgetting how much more aggressive timing can be used. This helps most engines especially at low RPM.

That is true depending on the cam centerline and overlap. Depending on those specs, advancing timing to "create" power will be lost or fighting against pressure bleed off. Those specs are critical. Its why big power can be made with a lift rule roundy round engine. Everything has to work within a window for a fire fueled big air pump.

JDennis
01-04-2013, 18:27
Hey Dana - before we plunk down the $1M. I would like you to show me some closed loop testing between E10 and 100% regular, 87 octane, gasoline.

Can you come up with those numbers? I'm talking about using the same car with a quart or 1/2 gallon or what ever of fuel - running on the same track on the same day. Who goes the farthest and by how much.

Ethanol manufactures and scientists at land grant universities and ethanol industry talking heads won't provide me with that information. I wonder why?

I'm thinking that test has been done - many times. Why don't we see those results? I'm not talking about theoretical results here... I'm talking measurable results. Real world results. I wonder why we never see such a thing... Don't you think that if E10 was producing similar mileage that we would be inundated with results?

Where's the beef?


I am a freak about numbers and have some real world results. I had a flex fuel Titan. Over 2 years, i check my mileage every fill up. Go to the same 2 gas stations 90% of the time. On E-85 vs E-10 over 2 years, the cost benefit was 39 cents difference. 38 cents and some change was the break even point. I use the same pumps, auto shut off, and let my car warm up for 1 minute give or take, check tire pressure, ect. Anything more than 40 cents difference i ran E-85 in the truck, less E-10. I work 6 days a week and only tracked my normal routine. If i made other trips off the beaten path I didn't count those tanks. The intersting part was when I traded that truck for a non flex fuel titan with same ratios and all I picked up just over 1.3 mpg on E-10 which I can only account to the fuel pump, injector and ecu differences. I imagine the parameters on those will make a difference set up for a more specific fuel.

czsmithGT
01-04-2013, 19:02
E85 uses about 25-30% more fuel UNLESS you use it in a lean burn condition (which you can because of the high octane equivalent). So, if I want 105 octane equivalent fuelm I can spend around $3 a gallon, and assuming using 35% more, I am spending the equivalent of $4 per gallon gasoline. 104 octane unleaded costs around $8/gallon.


How does it not
1) make economic sense to use a fuel that costs half as much
2) use a fuel that is readily available

So, the solution to reasonably priced, high octane equivalent fuel is E85.

Lastly, if I were worried about consumption, I would be driving a Prius.

It doesn't make economic sense for the 99.9% of drivers who don't use $8 a gallon 104 octane unleaded. Seems obvious.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 19:36
Hey Dana - before we plunk down the $1M. I would like you to show me some closed loop testing between E10 and 100% regular, 87 octane, gasoline.

Can you come up with those numbers? I'm talking about using the same car with a quart or 1/2 gallon or what ever of fuel - running on the same track on the same day. Who goes the farthest and by how much.

Ethanol manufactures and scientists at land grant universities and ethanol industry talking heads won't provide me with that information. I wonder why?

I'm thinking that test has been done - many times. Why don't we see those results? I'm not talking about theoretical results here... I'm talking measurable results. Real world results. I wonder why we never see such a thing... Don't you think that if E10 was producing similar mileage that we would be inundated with results?

Where's the beef?

Now you want to change the 10:1 bet on where I am from to something else?

DanaT
01-04-2013, 19:39
What?? I think it is pretty widely accepted that Ethanol reduces power/mileage.

Everyone EXCEPT engineers as at Ford.

The 5.0 in the F150 produces 360hp/380ft-lbs on Gasoline and 375hp/390ft-lbs on E85.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/09/2011-ford-f-150-50-liter-v-8-gains-power-burning-e85-ethanol.html

DanaT
01-04-2013, 19:41
That is true depending on the cam centerline and overlap. Depending on those specs, advancing timing to "create" power will be lost or fighting against pressure bleed off. Those specs are critical. Its why big power can be made with a lift rule roundy round engine. Everything has to work within a window for a fire fueled big air pump.

Modern engine management systems car do wonders varying timing, valve timing, lift, etc.

A 5.0 Coyote engine is much different than an old 5.0

DanaT
01-04-2013, 19:44
It doesn't make economic sense for the 99.9% of drivers who don't use $8 a gallon 104 octane unleaded. Seems obvious.

You must watch prices of E85 to Gasoline. Sometimes, E85 is $1 a gallon cheaper.

In general, the cheaper cost of E85 make that and E10 gasoline cost about the same to run on either fuel.

oldgraywolf
01-04-2013, 19:51
Two simple facts: Ethanol has less BTU/gallon than gasoline. Without government subsidies, we wouldn't be burning ethanol in our gasoline.

Yes, we can pull more horsepower out of an engine with ethanol than gasoline, but we have to burn more gallons to do it. IF ethanol could compete, without subsidies and favored treatment, on a cents per mile basis, it would make sense to burn it instead of gasoline or in a mixture with gasoline. As the situation is now, it's a burden on taxpayers.

tryn2hrd
01-04-2013, 19:57
E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.



BS Alert!

DanaT
01-04-2013, 20:15
As the situation is now, it's a burden on taxpayers.

At least I am getting a subsidy on my race fuel budget.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 20:22
BS Alert!

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0611_e85_ethanol_fuel_test/viewall.html

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x268/Mikeyspec/ShopProjectsandDynos/IMG.jpg
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2351459

JDennis
01-04-2013, 20:42
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0611_e85_ethanol_fuel_test/viewall.html

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x268/Mikeyspec/ShopProjectsandDynos/IMG.jpg
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2351459

Now your pulling out honda dyno sheets for comparisons :tongueout: I owned the GSR that vortech used for R&D on their centrifugal supercharger kit seems like ions ago. Honda don't care about no E-85 :tongueout: In all reality, my state is all about E-85 and Bio diesel for obvious reasons. But the price difference between E-85 and E-10 needs to be greater and most cars wont even have the proper equipment to run E-15 till current model year or later safely. Still will cost the average joe more to fill his tank unless the differentiation in price is greater.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 20:57
Now your pulling out honda dyno sheets for comparisons :tongueout:

How about there ones then?

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/250112-evoms-e85-dyno-sheet-1001-awhp-974-awtq.html

234mph EVOMS twin turbo 997 Porsche - The Texas Mile - March 2011 - YouTube

https://dragtimes.com/video-viewer.php?v=KZOyE2Bmw9M&feature

JDennis
01-04-2013, 21:27
How about there ones then?

Wasn't trying to knock the graphs. Hotrodders can benefit huge from E-85 import, deutch, or domestic. The point I am trying to make is the everyday average users won't and E-15 will ultimately cost more and everyone that doesn't own a newer car will suffer and pay more out of pocket.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 21:35
Wasn't trying to knock the graphs. Hotrodders can benefit huge from E-85 import, deutch, or domestic. The point I am trying to make is the everyday average users won't and E-15 will ultimately cost more and everyone that doesn't own a newer car will suffer and pay more out of pocket.

BUt many on this thread seem to think E85 doesn't make more power.

But leave me this one. I need ONE program where I get more money from govt subsidies than I pay in. At least I am screwing the govt workers, SS recipients, welfare recipients, etc. out of "their" govt money by making them subsidize my fuel.

JDennis
01-04-2013, 22:21
BUt many on this thread seem to think E85 doesn't make more power.

But leave me this one. I need ONE program where I get more money from govt subsidies than I pay in. At least I am screwing the govt workers, SS recipients, welfare recipients, etc. out of "their" govt money by making them subsidize my fuel.

In your run of the mill non-rodded E-85 vehicles there isnt a benefit or power increase. I tow a 8500lb trailer with my titan. I towed once
It once on E-85. Got 8.3 mpg and went through a entire tank from Des Moines to Council Bluffs, about 120 miles. We go that way often and the same trip on E-10 was just over 1/4 tank. Fuel consumption was greater which I would expect proportionate to the greater gvwr. But getting into the hills it definitely didnt pull as hard on E-85. Now granted had I customed tuned the factory ecu to maximize the E-85 numbers may have been better. But run of the mill safe factory tunes on a flex fuel won't net a power gain.

DanaT
01-04-2013, 22:30
In your run of the mill non-rodded E-85 vehicles there isnt a benefit or power increase. I tow a 8500lb trailer with my titan. I towed once
It once on E-85. Got 8.3 mpg and went through a entire tank from Des Moines to Council Bluffs, about 120 miles. We go that way often and the same trip on E-10 was just over 1/4 tank. Fuel consumption was greater which I would expect proportionate to the greater gvwr. But getting into the hills it definitely didnt pull as hard on E-85. Now granted had I customed tuned the factory ecu to maximize the E-85 numbers may have been better. But run of the mill safe factory tunes on a flex fuel won't net a power gain.

Look at the 5.0 coyote numbers for the F150 on gas vs e85 for a stock engine.

elsolo
01-05-2013, 01:08
BUt many on this thread seem to think E85 doesn't make more power.



Because for most cars on the road, it doesn't.

The average age of cars on the road is 10.8 yrs old.
It's great that Ford's newest high performance factory motor has the technology to make the best of ethanol blends, but most cars do not.

I don't hate e85, but it is unavailable here. If it was as available as the midwest, I would have built my last BBC with a whole lot more compression and run the government subsidized high octane fuel instead of 91 octane pump gas at 10:1 compression.

My daily driver is 11 yrs old, and is not going to appreciate 15% ethanol as it was not on the engineers minds when they designed it.

Flying-Dutchman
01-05-2013, 05:23
When I want alcohol I buy alcohol.

When I want gasoline, I should be able to buy gasoline.

Except for one special interest group no one wants watered down gas with ethanol with 2/3rds the energy of gasoline.

I know about octane and pinging but I should have a choice.

I used to buy non-ethanol gas for my power equipment but it is impossible to find anymore.

I cannot believe something this unpopular has survived this long.

lethal tupperwa
01-05-2013, 06:19
some Liberty Stations and 1 or 2 Gulf have gasoline only pumps

paynter2
01-05-2013, 06:25
some Liberty Stations and 1 or 2 Gulf have gasoline only pumps

Most of the stations in my area (N. MN) have 91 octane gasoline sans ethanol. It's supposed to be used for off-road applications only - sure...

I use it in my lawnmowers, outboard motors, chain saws, ATV, snowmobile, and everything else except my car and truck.

It's nice to have the option. I'm surprised that other areas of the country don't have the same choice.

SC Tiger
01-05-2013, 06:26
Honda makes flex fuel cars for sale in Brazil.

I did not know that. Not that it matters in the context of the debate, but I think the ethanol in Brazil is different somewhat. It is made from sugar cane, not corn. I would also bet that the Brazilians are better at making Ethanol than we are here.

Personally I would try to make it out of Kudzu (which is unkillable and will grow on rocks), Algae, non-food corn waste (husks, stalks, etc) or weeds. Basically things we can't eat. Heck you might even be able to use grass clippings.

I don't know that you could do it but if so, it would make a lot more sense than using foodstock.

walt cowan
01-05-2013, 06:28
we are the united states government and we are here to help you.

SC Tiger
01-05-2013, 06:28
Most of the stations in my area (N. MN) have 91 octane gasoline sans ethanol. It's supposed to be used for off-road applications only - sure...

I use it in my lawnmowers, outboard motors, chain saws, ATV, snowmobile, and everything else except my car and truck.

It's nice to have the option. I'm surprised that other areas of the country don't have the same choice.

A couple around here have that. I use it for non-car applications. However, when I'm filling the gas can I usually go ahead and fill the car as well...(there's no restrictions on using it here).

I knew of guy that supposedl used off-road diesel in his pickup all the time. It is illegal as heck but I don't know how he would get caught unless someone ratted him out.

SC Tiger
01-05-2013, 06:30
Because for most cars on the road, it doesn't.

The average age of cars on the road is 10.8 yrs old.
It's great that Ford's newest high performance factory motor has the technology to make the best of ethanol blends, but most cars do not.

I don't hate e85, but it is unavailable here. If it was as available as the midwest, I would have built my last BBC with a whole lot more compression and run the government subsidized high octane fuel instead of 91 octane pump gas at 10:1 compression.

My daily driver is 11 yrs old, and is not going to appreciate 15% ethanol as it was not on the engineers minds when they designed it.

This. The Keurnnegseig (sp) can make more power on biofuels than it does on normal gas. That does not make Ethano-laced gas work better in my Civic, my wife's Accord or my Silverado.

Atomic Punk
01-05-2013, 07:09
I read something a while back about "washing" ethanol out of pump gas. The theory was that since ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts/absorbs water), that by adding water to the gasoline and mixing, the ethanol would bind to the water and then settle out, leaving ethanol free gasoline floating on the top.

The theory is sound, as I do exactly that same process when I make biodiesel at home (only I'm washing out it's cousin Methanol).

My only issue is the possibility of dissolving water into the gasoline that wouldn't settle out. With biodiesel, I have to "dry" the fuel to remove the dissolved water. With biodiesel, which doesn't readily evaporate, it's pretty easy to do- just heat the bioD and then increasing its surface area (usally by pumping the bioD through a sprinkler head or similar) so that the water can evaporate. Won't work with gasoline though, as the gasoline would evaporate more readily than the water.

Distill out the gasoline maybe? Chemical drying agent that would bond with the water and settle out?

Thoughts?

you could try salt. not sure if it would work with gas. but apparently some refinerys use a salt column. big vertical pipe mostly full of salt. they slowly pump the diesel in from the bottom. any water in the fuel becomes salt water and sinks to the bottom.

oldgraywolf
01-05-2013, 07:17
I knew of guy that supposedl used off-road diesel in his pickup all the time. It is illegal as heck but I don't know how he would get caught unless someone ratted him out.

Off road diesel juice simply has a red dye added to it to mark it as fuel on which no road taxes have been paid. Commercial vehicles do get sampled in some locales, POVs virtually never. Same stuff as on road fuel.

SC Tiger
01-05-2013, 07:18
Off road diesel juice simply has a red dye added to it to mark it as fuel on which no road taxes have been paid. Commercial vehicles do get sampled in some locales, POVs virtually never. Same stuff as on road fuel.

That was my understanding as well. Assuming the fuel tank is the same basic setup I don't know how easily you could sample a diesel pickup's fuel on the side of the road.

lethal tupperwa
01-05-2013, 07:19
off road diesel has dye added to it

and just a small amount will color the whole tank.

You get caught when you are stopped a one of the temporary

check stations and the color of your fuel is checked.

oldgraywolf
01-05-2013, 07:28
That was my understanding as well. Assuming the fuel tank is the same basic setup I don't know how easily you could sample a diesel pickup's fuel on the side of the road.

Yeah, I can't even siphon fuel out of my tank because there's some sort of a baffle in the filler pipe. Commercials are a lot easier to sample as the tanks are usually a lot more accessible. The fines are pretty stiff if you get caught.

DanaT
01-05-2013, 07:31
Because for most cars on the road, it doesn't.

The average age of cars on the road is 10.8 yrs old.
It's great that Ford's newest high performance factory motor has the technology to make the best of ethanol blends, but most cars do not.

I don't hate e85, but it is unavailable here. If it was as available as the midwest, I would have built my last BBC with a whole lot more compression and run the government subsidized high octane fuel instead of 91 octane pump gas at 10:1 compression.

My daily driver is 11 yrs old, and is not going to appreciate 15% ethanol as it was not on the engineers minds when they designed it.

Yet that doesnt mean it doesnt make more power; it means that most cars are not engineered to take advantage of it. Two different statements.

DanaT
01-05-2013, 07:34
When I want alcohol I buy alcohol.

When I want gasoline, I should be able to buy gasoline.


What you want and what you are able to buy have not bearing on one another.

If I want a car without a cat, I should be able to buy it.

You will buy what the govt says you can buy. If they say you cant buy, you can't buy it.

BTW, if you WANT to buy 100% gasoline, you can. You buy race gasoline.

DanaT
01-05-2013, 07:36
I knew of guy that supposedl used off-road diesel in his pickup all the time. It is illegal as heck but I don't know how he would get caught unless someone ratted him out.

They dye the diesel a different color.

There is no performance difference. Diesel for off-highway use is for tractors/farm equipment/etc. The difference is it doesnt have the state and federal road taxes added to it. That is why it is illegal.

Bren
01-05-2013, 08:22
Let's see, I have seen evidence, repeatedly, that:

Ethanol take more gasoline to produce, than it replaces.

Diverting corn to ethanol production is creating higher prices for us and contributing to starvation in the third world.

Ethanol gets lower mileage than pure gasoline, so you increase the volume of gasoline, but you also increase the amount you have to brun for X miles.

Ethanol is hard on engines.

That's a pretty typical outcome for just about anything the liberals say is good for us.

paynter2
01-05-2013, 08:28
Let's see, I have seen evidence, repeatedly, that:

Ethanol take more gasoline to produce, than it replaces.

Diverting corn to ethanol production is creating higher prices for us and contributing to starvation in the third world.

Ethanol gets lower mileage than pure gasoline, so you increase the volume of gasoline, but you also increase the amount you have to brun for X miles.

Ethanol is hard on engines.

That's a pretty typical outcome for just about anything the liberals say is good for us.

Ethanol production uses vast quantities of fresh water. Where are the 'greenies' when we need them?

oldgraywolf
01-05-2013, 08:32
Let's see, I have seen evidence, repeatedly, that:

Ethanol take more gasoline to produce, than it replaces.

Diverting corn to ethanol production is creating higher prices for us and contributing to starvation in the third world.

Ethanol gets lower mileage than pure gasoline, so you increase the volume of gasoline, but you also increase the amount you have to brun for X miles.

Ethanol is hard on engines.

That's a pretty typical outcome for just about anything the liberals say is good for us.

That's a good summary, but don't blame the libs/green wienies. As another poster said earlier, look at Big Ag, including their suppliers. They're the ones who bought the congresscritters to fund all this happy horse****.

elsolo
01-05-2013, 08:45
Yet that doesnt mean it doesnt make more power; it means that most cars are not engineered to take advantage of it. Two different statements.

This thread was about pump gas and street cars.
Most street cars do not make more power with ethanol in it.

Theoretically, they could make more power on e85 if we all re-engineered our 10.8 yr old cars.

So are you arguing that most cars DO make more power on ethanol adjudicated fuels. (or simply that some cars COULD make more power on said fuel)?

DanaT
01-05-2013, 09:19
This thread was about pump gas and street cars.
Most street cars do not make more power with ethanol in it.

Theoretically, they could make more power on e85 if we all re-engineered our 10.8 yr old cars.

So are you arguing that most cars DO make more power on ethanol adjudicated fuels. (or simply that some cars COULD make more power on said fuel)?

Car that are engineered for E85 make more power on E85 than on gasoline.

A tesla doesnt make any additional power if you put E85 in it.

The other issue that is being ignored is emissions are lower with E85. People have learned that if a car wont pass emissions, add about a 1/4 tank E85 and it will likely pass.

DanaT
01-05-2013, 09:20
and contributing to starvation in the third world.

Isnt this a benefit for you since it is less enemies to fight us?

elsolo
01-05-2013, 09:26
Car that are engineered for E85 make more power on E85 than on gasoline.

A tesla doesnt make any additional power if you put E85 in it.

The other issue that is being ignored is emissions are lower with E85. People have learned that if a car wont pass emissions, add about a 1/4 tank E85 and it will likely pass.

Since this thread was started about e15 and it's effects on so many of the cars out there, I am not sure why you keep trying to argue how great e85 in a flex fuel car.

DanaT
01-05-2013, 10:14
Since this thread was started about e15 and it's effects on so many of the cars out there, I am not sure why you keep trying to argue how great e85 in a flex fuel car.

Because in a flex fuel car designed for alcohol, it has benefits.

paynter2
01-05-2013, 10:29
Because in a flex fuel car designed for alcohol, it has benefits.

That's probably true. Everything you posted, on this thread, is probably true. But, if ethanol is so good, why am I forced to buy it?

In a 'free' economy, why can't I make the decision of what I will burn in my car - a car that was designed to burn gasoline.

I think ethanol is the result of a very strong farm lobby - farmers initially got subsidized to produce the ****. They still are, subsidized, when the government forces me to buy the ****. And, both the state and federal governments get more gas tax due to the reduced mileage of the ****. That's why.

GrandlakeGar
01-05-2013, 10:33
My 07 Titan is a flex fuel vehicle. Per the owners manual E-85 will provide 30% less mpg, starting and idling problems at ambient temps above 90F and require oil changes at twice the normal frequency. This is no benefit to me.

Bren
01-05-2013, 11:38
My 07 Titan is a flex fuel vehicle. Per the owners manual E-85 will provide 30% less mpg, starting and idling problems at ambient temps above 90F and require oil changes at twice the normal frequency. This is no benefit to me.

And no benefit to the environment, oil reserves and prices, or anything else.