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jbailey8
01-04-2013, 21:59
Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One - YouTube

I wasn't impressed with this video and thought some of you may want to take a look. This was uploaded to youtube in 2010 and it was pretty biased. They take a police firearms instructor and put him in an active shooter situation as the attacker to see how average CCers will react. I like the idea as a training point, but the media spin is pathetic.

What's your thoughts?

APERS
01-04-2013, 22:16
In light of all the mass shootings in gun free zones/posted areas/posted buildings.. CCW is not effective where it is not allowed..? :sad:

Atomic Punk
01-04-2013, 22:19
the gloves and setup aside. most gunmen busting into a room dont know in advance who is armed, and exactly where they are.
the whole thing is just silly.

cowboy1964
01-04-2013, 22:23
This is an old story. Have been many threads here.

I don't care if anyone thinks it's ineffective or not.

lilmule
01-04-2013, 22:38
I think anyone is ineffective if the attacker has a firearm out and pointing at you,be silly to try to bring yours out unless you thought they would shoot anyway,then most likly both shot you twice since he had his out him once,with you having the biggest problem.
Last resort situation,distracted stand a chance,against other weapons stand a bigger chance,like ball bat at ten ft and you see it coming.
Carrying a gun does not mean you wont die,but stand a better chance of taking them with you or averting it all together.
Would it pay to stop a crime if it resulted in a gunfight,with others in the vicinity.
Assuming they are whacco yes, otherwise no.

Gray_Rider
01-04-2013, 22:42
Never faced with an active shooter situatuion, but I would beg to differ with the effectiveness of CCW for my part....I would have been in serious trouble w/o one on at least one occasion and I didn't even have to draw it. Hundreds of such situations like mine go down every month and everyone goes home safe. No shots fired, just the presence......

Gray_Rider

xmanhockey7
01-05-2013, 06:40
Don't even get me started about how B.S. this "news report" is. I bet I can make a video that shows the "CCW" holder to be a great to have. They'll even get the girl when the dust settles.

Bren
01-05-2013, 06:46
What's your thoughts?

It is ridiculous and proves nothing. My evidence? Time after time after time we post news articles of CCWers winning against bad guys who have drawn guns, superior numbers, surprise, etc.

It clearly works and it always has - that's why the police carry guns.

I'm a concealed carry permit holder - I'll bet I have more training and qualification, including more certifications as a law enforcement firearms instrutor than everybody in that video combined.

steveksux
01-05-2013, 07:47
I think it's interesting that these people are so clueless that they try to take on an armed intruder with simunitions rather than taking cover and fleeing.

Taking people who have never carried before, pretending they respond like the average ccwer seems rather dubious too.

Randy

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RussP
01-05-2013, 07:48
First, anything put out by VPC, the Violence Policy Center, http://www.vpc.org/index.htm, should not be considered a "news report."

VPC is an anti-firearm, anti-2nd Amendment group dedicated to disarming America.

Please go to their website before giving the video credibility.

steveksux
01-05-2013, 07:50
First, anything put out by VPC, the Violence Policy Center, http://www.vpc.org/index.htm, should not be considered a "news report."

VPC is an anti-firearm, anti-2nd Amendment group dedicated to disarming America.

Please go to their website before giving the video credibility.
Not their video, they merely stole it from news media.
It's a logical fallacy to shoot the wrong messenger... :rofl:
Randy


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RussP
01-05-2013, 08:40
Not their video, they merely stole it from news media.
It's a logical fallacy to shoot the wrong messenger... :rofl:
RandyClick on the YouTube link...does it not go to VPC Videos. They are promoting, endorsing the video. Stolen from ABC News? Yeah, and ABC News is the unbiased fair and balanced source for reporting on firearms?

As I said, rephrased, anything put out by, promoted by, endorsed by, used by VPC should not be considered accurate reporting of anything connected to firearms and their legal use.

robhic
01-05-2013, 09:32
OK, so I take a few people with MINIMAL (1/2 hour?) training, put gloves on their hands and then expect them to go, cold, into a life-or-death situation? Really? And this passes as fair journalism? What a crock!!!

What about they let them drive around in a new car for an hour or so and then give them a set of tools and tell them to take the engine out. What? Nobody could do that?

Well, that is what, to me, this "demonstration" of how ineffective weapons use is by comparison. GTFO!!!:steamed:

FireForged
01-05-2013, 09:42
if having a firearm in ineffective against a mad man with a gun then why do people call the police?

xmanhockey7
01-05-2013, 09:48
OK, so I take a few people with MINIMAL (1/2 hour?) training, put gloves on their hands and then expect them to go, cold, into a life-or-death situation? Really? And this passes as fair journalism? What a crock!!!

What about they let them drive around in a new car for an hour or so and then give them a set of tools and tell them to take the engine out. What? Nobody could do that?

Well, that is what, to me, this "demonstration" of how ineffective weapons use is by comparison. GTFO!!!:steamed:
Not to mention the "active shooter" knows exactly who to shoot because they're in on it and everyone in the class goes running past the shooter to do the door. Really? I'm betting there would be far more people ducking under the desk or sitting there frozen.

WhiskeyUnicorn
01-05-2013, 10:07
open carry would have prevented this...or a better holster...or if the "gunman" didn't know that guy was armed...

2-8 Marine
01-05-2013, 10:08
Pure and utter soya s**t.

Gunnut 45/454
01-05-2013, 10:36
OP then join the unarmed liberals and be a victim! If you can't or do not know how to employ deadly force don't carry! I for one do know how and when to employ deadly force and will every time it's required! Thats the difference! Sure there is alway the chance you will catch a round during a gun fight thats why it called a gun fight! The trick is to make the other guy bleed more!:whistling:

jbailey8
01-05-2013, 11:08
OP then join the unarmed liberals and be a victim! If you can't or do not know how to employ deadly force don't carry! I for one do know how and when to employ deadly force and will every time it's required! Thats the difference! Sure there is alway the chance you will catch a round during a gun fight thats why it called a gun fight! The trick is to make the other guy bleed more!:whistling: Uh.... I said I "wasn't impressed" by the video and then went on to say that the media spin was "biased" and "pathetic." I don't understand how that makes me a liberal.

I said I liked the idea of the scenario as a training tool. I was actually aggravated that the female (the only one to get any shots off) was criticized for "not standing in the right place."

I too am confident in my ability to put rounds on target and employ deadly force. Sorry that you misunderstood why I posted the video.



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IndyGunFreak
01-05-2013, 14:55
This is an old story. Have been many threads here.

I don't care if anyone thinks it's ineffective or not.

Pretty much. This is along the same lines as people saying "CCW reduces crime". Most states, see very little change in their crime rates after ccw passes (aside from normal variations, and crime has been on the downward trend for some time).

I don't care if crime doubles when CCW is passed.. if it's not CCW holders committing the crime, it's irrelevant.

dosei
01-05-2013, 16:34
Pretty much. This is along the same lines as people saying "CCW reduces crime". Most states, see very little change in their crime rates after ccw passes (aside from normal variations, and crime has been on the downward trend for some time).

I don't care if crime doubles when CCW is passed.. if it's not CCW holders committing the crime, it's irrelevant.

But one interesting thing to note...in the last 20 years, the violent crime rate has gone DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY according to FBI Stats (and one of the most significant trends in the last 20 years has been the rise of states passing shall-issue laws and the significant increases of people getting permits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ooa98FHuaU0#!

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

Funny isn't it...violent crime has been FALLING STEADILY as the number of states issuing permits and number of people getting permits has steadily been on the increase.

So, who here has been hearing any of this on the news...the steady drops in violent crime...???

dougader
01-05-2013, 17:03
I think it would have been great if they had brought that camera crew to my university. I would have sat there quietly until the"bad" guy came in the room and took aim at the gloved good guy. Then I would have squatted beside my desk, pointed my finger at him and yelled five times bang! bang! bang! bang! bang! You're dead!

If they asked what I thought I was doing, I would simply say: I'm the armed citizen you didn't know about. You're dead. If need be, I would have then opened my coat to show them the Glock 19 I carried every day at PSU.

Wouldn't they be surprised...

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Spiffums
01-05-2013, 18:12
Like Eastwood said on Heartbreak Ridge.........handy knowing where you gonna get ambushed.

IndyGunFreak
01-06-2013, 06:15
Funny isn't it...violent crime has been FALLING STEADILY as the number of states issuing permits and number of people getting permits has steadily been on the increase.

So, who here has been hearing any of this on the news...the steady drops in violent crime...???

I don't dispute crime has not been falling steadily for several years... I just don't like people saying it's "because of CCW". CCW may have an effect, but I'm sure there's a myriad of other issues that do as well.

Crime rates should be totally irrelevant to CCW Unless there's a massive jump in CCW'ers committing felonies, they're two unrelated issues in my opinion.

As for the news.. :rofl:

IGF

Lior
01-06-2013, 06:44
About statistics and polls:
Leading Questions - Yes Prime Minister - YouTube

RussP
01-06-2013, 07:25
I think it would have been great if they had brought that camera crew to my university. I would have sat there quietly until the"bad" guy came in the room and took aim at the gloved good guy. Then I would have squatted beside my desk, pointed my finger at him and yelled five times bang! bang! bang! bang! bang! You're dead!

If they asked what I thought I was doing, I would simply say: I'm the armed citizen you didn't know about. You're dead. If need be, I would have then opened my coat to show them the Glock 19 I carried every day at PSU.

Wouldn't they be surprised...

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)Actually, they would be very, very surprised. They'd be desperate to find out how you got through the screening process, too. :animlol:

RussP
01-06-2013, 07:35
But one interesting thing to note...in the last 20 years, the violent crime rate has gone DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY according to FBI Stats (and one of the most significant trends in the last 20 years has been the rise of states passing shall-issue laws and the significant increases of people getting permits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ooa98FHuaU0#!

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

Funny isn't it...violent crime has been FALLING STEADILY as the number of states issuing permits and number of people getting permits has steadily been on the increase.

So, who here has been hearing any of this on the news...the steady drops in violent crime...???Well, you might say that the fear of prosecution and lengthy hard time incarceration caused it, but, yeah, I think that might be wrong.

Would it be that traditional core family values are coming back. We can hope, but probably not.

Maybe it IS because more people are drawing their weapons when threatened resulting in no crime committed, or the attacker wounded or DRT. I mean, that's the way it is in some movies, right? There are movies that celebrate the use of firearms by average citizens to defeat crime, aren't there?

:dunno:

Arc Angel
01-06-2013, 07:43
I think it would have been great if they had brought that camera crew to my university. I would have sat there quietly until the"bad" guy came in the room and took aim at the gloved good guy. Then I would have squatted beside my desk, pointed my finger at him and yelled five times bang! bang! bang! bang! bang! You're dead!

If they asked what I thought I was doing, I would simply say: I'm the armed citizen you didn't know about. You're dead. If need be, I would have then opened my coat to show them the Glock 19 I carried every day at PSU.

Wouldn't they be surprised ...

While I like your style; and I'm fully aware that those kids in the video were, 'programmed to fail', (If the U.S. military taught recruits to handle firearms like that we'd all be speaking Arabic. :supergrin: ) I'm, also, surprised to notice you admit to frequently carrying a concealed pistol at Portland State University. Can you really do that?

steveksux
01-06-2013, 09:25
Click on the YouTube link...does it not go to VPC Videos. They are promoting, endorsing the video. Stolen from ABC News? Yeah, and ABC News is the unbiased fair and balanced source for reporting on firearms?

As I said, rephrased, anything put out by, promoted by, endorsed by, used by VPC should not be considered accurate reporting of anything connected to firearms and their legal use.No arguments from me, just messing with you, mixing metaphors. I'm sure ABC is no better than VPC on 2A issues...

Randy

steveksux
01-06-2013, 10:03
Well, you might say that the fear of prosecution and lengthy hard time incarceration caused it, but, yeah, I think that might be wrong.

Would it be that traditional core family values are coming back. We can hope, but probably not.

Maybe it IS because more people are drawing their weapons when threatened resulting in no crime committed, or the attacker wounded or DRT. I mean, that's the way it is in some movies, right? There are movies that celebrate the use of firearms by average citizens to defeat crime, aren't there?

:dunno:Hard to say which is correlation and which is causation.

If there was a breakdown by state/year as to how the stats are going down, is there a knee in the state/year where shall issue is approved? Has the crime rate dropped by a similar rate in the few states where CCW is rare, NY, DC, IL?

I would think it'd take a few years to show any effect, until the #s of permit holders increased over time.

There's an increasing number of articles in the local papers where robbers and permit holders run into each other, but Detroit is probably not representative of the country as a whole. And they probably make the papers because its out of the ordinary, there's a LOT of robberies that don't make the papers out here.

Its even possible the "war on drugs" has actually helped, by keeping potential muggers in prison on drug charges. :dunno:

I don't think the thought of running into a permit holder deters criminals any more than running into cops. They aren't good at risk analysis. And if they really thought running into permit holders was a problem, I think they'd change tactics and actually shoot rather than threatening to shoot at the outset of the robbery. Most of the robber/CCW encounters have surprise on the side of the CCWer, because they do NOT expect to run into a permit holder, allowing the CCWer to prevail.

Don't get me wrong, people absolutely ought to have the right to CCW so that the few who do happen to run into robbers have a fighting chance to control their own destiny.

I'm just not convinced that shall issue is behind the drop in crime rates.

Randy

RussP
01-06-2013, 10:11
I'm just not convinced that shall issue is behind the drop in crime rates.

RandyRandy, are you familiar with the various reports that between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 times a year (depends on the report) a firearm is used to stop or prevent a crime?

Would those numbers be the same if fewer people were carrying for self defense?

steveksux
01-06-2013, 10:18
Randy, are you familiar with the various reports that between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 times a year (depends on the report) a firearm is used to stop or prevent a crime?

Would those numbers be the same if fewer people were carrying for self defense?Point taken, those cases where no shots fired, displaying the weapon is enough to scare off the robber. That's really a shame, because they won't show up in any official stats, often no shots fired, no police report to file, so it's really hard to quantify accurately. When I say that, I'm not trying to dispute or downplay those numbers, they may well be accurate. For all I know those numbers may be too low, rather than inflated.

I have to wonder if a significant # of those may in fact not represent crimes prevented so much as crimes delayed, though. Junkies still need their fix, some other victim is going to get held up in short order, one who is not armed. Robbers are non-union, so they don't have to quit at a certain time, they'll look for another victim until they find one... ;)

Having said that, I'm all in favor of making sure I'm not the guy that gets robbed at that moment in time! :supergrin:

Also, let me be clear I'm not saying CCW has had NO effect on crime, clearly it's worked quite often in cases where robbers stumbled onto a CCWer. I'm just disputing how much of the drop in the crime rate is attributable to CCWers. I don't think there's enough of us out there to be solely responsible for it, there's too few of us out there, its still relatively rare when a robber runs into one of us. I think there's more going on than just us.

Randy

oldman11
01-06-2013, 10:28
The whole news report is a LIE, and we all know it. It's the Obama News Fallacy conjuring stories for the feeble-minded.

Hyena
01-06-2013, 10:34
If you carry responsible and take it serious, and you practice so that drawing and coming on target becomes muscle memory you won't get the gun caught in your shirt. You don't get that from a 15 minute "this is how you make a gun go boom" session. I was going through active shooter training on the day of Sandy Hook, and I amazed myself with how quickly I reloaded and got back on target. The reason is because I have trained and dry fired enough that it became automatic for me to do that when the gun was empty. It took time to get there. That's why this has no basis on reality.

RussP
01-06-2013, 10:55
I think there's more going on than just us.

RandyWhat constitutes that "more"?

countrygun
01-06-2013, 11:31
While I like your style; and I'm fully aware that those kids in the video were, 'programmed to fail', (If the U.S. military taught recruits to handle firearms like that we'd all be speaking Arabic. :supergrin: ) I'm, also, surprised to notice you admit to frequently carrying a concealed pistol at Portland State University. Can you really do that?

PSU is an interesting place with some unique issues.

Besides the fact that the campus is split in half by a city park (the park blocks) all of the streets and most of the sidewalks are city (public) property. There were also some buildings, at one time, that housed both public and University operations. For instance, the book store, which is a private entity but is in the campus and shares building with a restaurant.

On top of that it is the place for LEOs in the Portland Metro area to pursue continuing education opportunities.

I know, at one time, the University had a "If they have a permit, or are LE and permitted, we are fine with it" policy, but that was years ago and administrations change.

steveksux
01-06-2013, 11:48
What constitutes that "more"?Could be the get tough on crime measures that have been popular for so long, 3 strikes laws, war on drugs. Anything that keeps more criminals locked up longer.

Look at NYC, they also have had drops in crime, largely attributed to Guiliani's "broken window" policing model. Certainly not due to relaxed CCW laws.

I tend to be skeptical by nature, and tend to be even more skeptical of theories I'd love to be true, like "ccw reduces crime". I try to dig deeper because I assume I'm biased in favor of that theory.

I am not suggesting I am more likely to be right in this case than you. The jury is still out, IMO, just suggesting alternate theories, really. Stats are one thing, the tricky part is figuring out the reasons behind why the numbers end up as they are. Easier to establish correlations than causations.

Randy

RussP
01-06-2013, 12:24
Could be the get tough on crime measures that have been popular for so long, 3 strikes laws, war on drugs. Anything that keeps more criminals locked up longer.

Look at NYC, they also have had drops in crime, largely attributed to Guiliani's "broken window" policing model. Certainly not due to relaxed CCW laws.

I tend to be skeptical by nature, and tend to be even more skeptical of theories I'd love to be true, like "ccw reduces crime". I try to dig deeper because I assume I'm biased in favor of that theory.

I am not suggesting I am more likely to be right in this case than you. The jury is still out, IMO, just suggesting alternate theories, really. Stats are one thing, the tricky part is figuring out the reasons behind why the numbers end up as they are. Easier to establish correlations than causations.

RandyHard Times, Fewer Crimes (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870.html)

dosei
01-06-2013, 13:58
I don't dispute crime has not been falling steadily for several years... I just don't like people saying it's "because of CCW". CCW may have an effect, but I'm sure there's a myriad of other issues that do as well.

Well, you might say that the fear of prosecution and lengthy hard time incarceration caused it, but, yeah, I think that might be wrong.

Would it be that traditional core family values are coming back. We can hope, but probably not.

Maybe it IS because more people are drawing their weapons when threatened resulting in no crime committed, or the attacker wounded or DRT. I mean, that's the way it is in some movies, right? There are movies that celebrate the use of firearms by average citizens to defeat crime, aren't there?

:dunno:

I am not someone that thinks Shall Issue laws and the increase of responsible law abiding people carrying concealed weapons is "THE" reason for the drop. I am someone that rather adamantly believes that there are ALWAYS reasons...it never is solely because of "just one thing". There are always many contributing factors. I do, however, believe that it is one of the many contributing factors.

steveksux
01-06-2013, 14:22
Hard Times, Fewer Crimes (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870.html)Interesting..

I was one of those expecting a big explosion of crime from the economic downturn, but I was wrong. Even in Detroit most crimes are down. The one exception is homicides, unfortunately. That's mostly rival drug dealers and gang bangers settling disputes.

I agree with Dosei, there's a lot of factors, and certainly CCW is one of them.

Randy

countrygun
01-06-2013, 14:26
Interesting..

I was one of those expecting a big explosion of crime from the economic downturn, but I was wrong. Even in Detroit most crimes are down. The one exception is homicides, unfortunately. That's mostly rival drug dealers and gang bangers settling disputes.

I agree with Dosei, there's a lot of factors, and certainly CCW is one of them.

Randy

In Detroit everything that can be stolen has and criminals don't report it when stolen property is stolen from them.

steveksux
01-06-2013, 14:27
In Detroit everything that can be stolen has and criminals don't report it when stolen property is stolen from them.:rofl:

well, there is that... shouldn't you say criminals don't report stolen property when it is restolen from them?

Kind of like regifting for criminals...

Randy

ElectricZombie
01-06-2013, 15:58
IIRC, ABC eventually admitted that this scenario was a staged.

redbaron007
01-07-2013, 07:28
About statistics and polls:
Leading Questions - Yes Prime Minister - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)

Too funny!! And sadly...too correct!!

I am not someone that thinks Shall Issue laws and the increase of responsible law abiding people carrying concealed weapons is "THE" reason for the drop. I am someone that rather adamantly believes that there are ALWAYS reasons...it never is solely because of "just one thing". There are always many contributing factors. I do, however, believe that it is one of the many contributing factors.

It may not be the only reason, but it is easy to make it the MAIN reason.


:wavey:

red

RussP
01-07-2013, 08:06
:rofl:

well, there is that... shouldn't you say criminals don't report stolen property when it is restolen from them?

Kind of like regifting for criminals...

Randy:rofl::rofl:

Poohgyrr
01-07-2013, 13:38
My difficulty with the anti firearm folks is all the nonsense they keep spreading about and their refusal to engage in an open honest discussion.

Let's face it: If being a gun free zone actually prevented crime, then schools and prisons would be among the safest places in the USA.

Add all the local places that have strict gun control. Bernie Goetz would never have had to shoot the muggers attacking him. And the only movie theater to ban CCW in that CO town would never have had their poor unarmed movie patrons shot by that nutcase crook..

Drain You
01-07-2013, 18:49
I remember seeing that junk and discussing it online. Junk, that is all it is. I disagree with their uneducated method & hypothesis & so does the turd I had to deal with a few weeks ago.

SCmasterblaster
01-08-2013, 14:40
I think anyone is ineffective if the attacker has a firearm out and pointing at you,be silly to try to bring yours out unless you thought they would shoot anyway,then most likly both shot you twice since he had his out him once,with you having the biggest problem.
Last resort situation,distracted stand a chance,against other weapons stand a bigger chance,like ball bat at ten ft and you see it coming.
Carrying a gun does not mean you wont die,but stand a better chance of taking them with you or averting it all together.
Would it pay to stop a crime if it resulted in a gunfight,with others in the vicinity.
Assuming they are whacco yes, otherwise no.

I wouldn't miss my target mugger!