Barnes 155 gr TAC-XP data? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Barnes 155 gr TAC-XP data?


Andrew Wiggin
01-07-2013, 14:25
What do you know about loading for this bullet? I have 800-X, AA9, and AA7.

Andrew Wiggin
01-08-2013, 11:29
So I did what I should have done in the first place and just called Barnes. Guy told me he had some data for the 155gr in 10mm that hasn't been published yet and just emailed over the .pdf. Duh. Velocities seem a little low but we'll see how everything pans out. I'll work some up, chrono, and gel test and report back in my gel test thread.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9777/barnes10mm155grdata.jpg

* the carat indicates the most accurate load.

The .pdf also includes 125 gr and 140 gr data. If you want it, IM me and I'll email the .pdf over to you.

gofastman
01-10-2013, 21:26
I have "heard" the magic powder for the Tac XP bullets in 10mm is blue dot

_The_Shadow
01-10-2013, 21:58
If I ever get the 155 TAC XP bullets I'd go with 8.4 grains of IMR800X based off other research given the long length of this bullet!

Buski
01-31-2013, 16:05
Wow Andrew, those are some REALLY moderate velocities Barnes gave you.

Andrew Wiggin
02-04-2013, 10:48
Buski, a 155 gr TAC-XP is longer than a 200 gr XTP. That means a much longer bearing surface than lead core 155 gr bullets in .400".

_The_Shadow
02-04-2013, 12:28
Besides the bullet being a long bearing surface the fact that the bullet as seated to the normal 1.250" or 1.26o" places this longer bullet deeper into the casing, this is where the powder needs to be adjusted, for pressures.

As the powder is being compressed by the bullet or there is less room the pressures start to increase. There were some test with 9mm bullet that were seated just 0.020" deeper which resulted in pressures increassing to almost double that of the same load.

The same is true with the all copper bullets due to their extra length, copper is lighter than lead cored of the same weight! Therefore powder charges need adjusting to avoid pressure spikes.

TAC-XP 10mm bullet lengths...
125grain = 0.624"
140grain = 0.682"
155grain = 0.733"

Buski
02-07-2013, 17:35
I know:supergrin:

..thankyou though, for reminding me & everyone of the size/bearing surface issues.

I would think, that a 1300 fps 10mm load would be pressure moderate enough to publish.

They're "really" playing it safe or they simply don't have anyone, on staff, w/10mm experience..or both.

Good shooting

Andrew Wiggin
03-08-2013, 07:44
Buski, looks like you're right about that. Buffalo Bore advertises 1,400 fps for their 155 gr TAC-XP. I'd like to get this thing moving better. Not necessarily BB velocity but I'd definitely like to get 1,300 fps. Anybody have any idea of sources of data that might make me feel better about pushing this? Shadow, have you dissected one of the BB copper rounds?

_The_Shadow
03-08-2013, 08:36
Andrew, I haven't taken down any of the BB 155 TAC-XP or other rounds to date. It would be interesting...If I recall, BB used Power Pistol in some of their other loadings.

Andrew Wiggin
03-08-2013, 08:57
Okay, thanks.

Here's the link, in case anyone is interested: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=272

Buski
03-16-2013, 08:26
Andrew,

I ended up, w/a Blue Dot load.

After a bit of cautious experimentation, I found that the bullet works best, in terms of velocity, w/155gr 10mm load powders.

I used load data, from the Hornady 7th edition handbook of cartridge reloading, as a starting point/reference.

Did some "hill-billy" terminal ballistics testing (ie wet phone books & 1 gal milk jugs filled w/water). Using that "media", the 155gr Barnes, did as well..and in some cases "better" than the 200gr XTP @ 1250 fps.

I have yet to take a hog w/the Barnes; though, I did take a doe w/the bullet last yr., fired from my 6" KKM barreled G20. I did not recover the bullet.

Best wishes & good shooting.

dm1906
03-17-2013, 12:00
Andrew,

I ended up, w/a Blue Dot load.

After a bit of cautious experimentation, I found that the bullet works best, in terms of velocity, w/155gr 10mm load powders.

I used load data, from the Hornady 7th edition handbook of cartridge reloading, as a starting point/reference.

Did some "hill-billy" terminal ballistics testing (ie wet phone books & 1 gal milk jugs filled w/water). Using that "media", the 155gr Barnes, did as well..and in some cases "better" than the 200gr XTP @ 1250 fps.

I have yet to take a hog w/the Barnes; though, I did take a doe w/the bullet last yr., fired from my 6" KKM barreled G20. I did not recover the bullet.

Best wishes & good shooting.

I don't think it's very effective on large hogs at any significant distance. My son took a 350# sow about a month ago with his Mech Tec .40 S&W, which sends them at about 1400 FPS. I load the same bullet to 1500 FPS from my G20 with 5.2" LWD barrel (not ported). The results weren't stellar or decicive, other than getting the kill. The story is HERE (http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-hunting/my-son%27s-first/). Anyway, at 1400 FPS (muzzle), they were all pass-through with no spectacular exits. They didn't appear to expand, at all, through 12-16" of tissue. Shooting them through 12" water or gel, they do. I suspect the tough hide fouled the bullet's design. They also won't expand after shooting through hardened targets, like glass, plywood or metal. I've considered pushing them to 18-1900 FPS with the .38-40, just to see if higher velocity would change the performance. I hate using the bullets, and do it only out of necessity (CA buzzard area).

Buski
03-17-2013, 19:56
DM,

So far, all my hog kills w/the 10mm have been DRT (ie Dead Right There).

-250 lb sow w/a handloaded Double Tap 200 gr Lead WFNHC bullet: 6" Glock 20

-100 lb sow w/a handloaded 200 gr Hornady XTP: Glock 29

I believe the Barnes bullet has great potential, in the 10mm. Maybe this weekend, I'll get a shot or 2 off @ some hogs.

I stopped, @ 1400 fps, out of a G20 w/a KKM standard length comped barrel w/a 19 lb Wolff recoil spring & guide rod. 1500 fps is "smoking", out of a 5.2" barrel.

What powder are you using?

Good shooting.

dm1906
03-17-2013, 22:45
No doubt. That was my experience as well, until we were forced to unleaded bullets in 2008. When they piled up, they stayed there. I haven't shot a hog since Barnes bullets, but have had success with other game and pests (coyotes, ferrel dogs, possum(splat!), and others I won't mention).

The powder is Blue Dot for the 10mm. I couldn't get there with any other. Barnes' recomendations leave a lot to be desired, for sure. Other published loads don't do much better. Maybe acceptable for SD, but little else, IMO. I spent about $100 on bullets alone getting there. I did the same with other calibers, .40SW, .357M, .41M, and .44M. The 155's are NOT a good choice for the .40SW, but that's what I had on the shelf, and my son needed some. That one got HS-6.

By "comped", do you mean the G20C type barrel, with the ports in the middle of the barrel? If so, you may do a LOT better without the comp, and probably nearer to the loads I shoot. The comp gives up a lot of velocity, for the same barrel length. Ported barrels (ports near the muzzle) tend to lose less. I intend, at some time in the near future, to send my LWD 5.2" in to Magna-Port for a traditional port job done. I don't like the single verticle ports, like LWD and others are selling as "ported" these days.

Buski
03-18-2013, 03:05
"Comped", as in KKM comped barrel.:supergrin:

Good shooting.

capn jeff
06-29-2013, 15:37
I don't have a whole lot of data yet, but I just started loading the barnes 155gr Tac-XP in 40 s&w for my Glock 22 gen 4. I've got a KKM stainless barrel. After a bunch of informal research I came up with test load of Win WST 4.6gr and seated the bullet to achieve a coal of 1.128- 1.131. It chambers fine in the glock and cronied at just under 900fps. This is a slightly compressed load as the bullet is very long. I wouldn't use a powder that requires a whole lot of compression unless you're very daring. Inspected the casings and found no evidence of over pressure and the cartridge ejected normally. I'll probably up the load slowly (.2gr) after a little more testing, to try to get the velocity up a bit. Hope this helps.

dm1906
06-30-2013, 02:44
If you are using the Barnes bullets out of necessity (such as CA hunting) or SD, you'll have to do a LOT better than that. They don't expand at that velocity. Even at 1300 FPS, they don't, reliably. I load my 10mm to 1500+, and they expand, explosively, but are fairly benign below 1400. My son took a 350# hog a few months ago with his .40SW Mech Tech (1320 FPS), and all 4 neck and jowl shots were through and through, pin holes. We won't be using this round again for hunting pigs or medium game. The XPB bullets expand at a much lower velocity, but not available in .40. I use the XPB bullets for .41M and .44M, and they expand too soon at max velocity (~1700 FPS). No win with these things, but they're all we have if they are necessary.

I use the 155 gr. for .38-40, and they do very well up to nearly 2,000 FPS. Poor accuracy and too much fragmentation above about 1950 FPS, but explosive performance up to about 2050 FPS, which is where I stopped. I'm not sure what Barnes intended with these, but none of the published loads are worth a damn. Armored targets, such as glass, wood and steel, and they are no better than a solid. Good penetration, but NO expansion.

dm1906
06-30-2013, 02:55
Also......

WST should be limited to the lighter/smaller calibers. It is a very good powder in light rounds, such as .380 and .38 SPL, extremely economical and easy to use, but not a good powder for anything resembling high power. It is a very lofty powder (larger volume per charge, which makes it easier to measure small charges), but it's MUCH too fast for high pressure rounds. It's great for .40SW, .45ACP, .38SPL, 9mm and such target loads, but not much else. It's an absolute flop with .44 Spl and .45LC (too great case capacity, I think). It'll never be a performer for other loads, such as .40SW, 10mm, or any magnum load. It's a limited use target shotgun powder, and does very well there.

capn jeff
06-30-2013, 04:42
It sounds like you have a lot more experience with these than I do. I will be experimenting with slowly increasing the charge to up velocity. Right now I don't have another powder I can use so I may just use these for some rather expensive plinking. Thanks.

capn jeff
06-30-2013, 05:17
What powder would you reccomend for this combo to achieve the kind of velocities you're talking about? These bullets seat so deep in the case that there is not much room left without a whole bunch of compression. I ordered 1 box of factory ammo using this bullet to get some idea of what can be achieved with the 155gr tac xp. I'll let you know what I find out.

dm1906
06-30-2013, 09:29
Expensive plinkers is right. Loaded rounds will run about a buck a piece, DIY. Store-bought are generally about double that.

The problem with getting performance from them, as you're finding out, is the case capacity. The Barnes 155 is about the least practical bullet for a .40SW. It's longer than a 200 gr. XTP, so you'll run out of case capacity long before you get respectable performance from otherwise ideal slow powders, and over pressure with fast "target" type powders (such as WST). WST is one of the least practical powders because of its loft/density. I use a lot it because it is very economical, requiring a lower charge weight at a greater case fill for target/plinker rounds with 180 gr. cast lead (4.3 gr.), and the cases are nearly full with that load at 1.125", and published pressure is above 34K.

Your 4.6 gr. load, even at a longer 1.135" COAL is probably at or beyond maximum pressure now. About 5 grains is max for a 155 gr. jacketed bullet, and you lose a lot of the pressure cushion as the bullet gets longer, regardless of the with weight. If you're already compressing the powder, you've gone too far. The powder compresses very well physically, but the pressures will leave the linear scale exponentially compared to pre-compression. You may not ever get a pressure warning from almost to too much, even at .2 gr. increments in this situation.

Just about any powder slower than WST is better. I've used W231 with modestly respectable results, and much better with Unique and HS-6. AA-5, Autocomp and 800X are also acceptable performers. Barnes recommends Silhouette and Longshot, but they didn't do very well with my tests. Inspect your fired cases very closely. Watch for the slightest indication of a smile, which was the first pressure indicator (before flattened primers) in the tests I did.

If you are using Barnes bullets because you want to, or need to, I suggest getting the 125 gr, which seem to be more available. It's less bullet mass, but they allow a lot more case capacity, which really helps with performance options. You aren't gaining anything with a heavier bullet, if you can't get the velocity to make it perform. I hate these bullets, but they are my only handgun option for hunting in CA. I wouldn't use them if I didn't have to.

capn jeff
06-30-2013, 13:47
I really appreciate all the info. I spent quite some time trying to find a formula that would work for these and didn't find much. I guess I need to look at changing powders. It's tough to get what you need these days. All the powder and bullets are either out of stock or back ordered. Anyway, that's how I wound up with this stuff. Just trying to make it work. The present load of 4.6 gr isn't pushing the bullet fast enough for it to perform. I have a few loaded with 4.8gr of the wst already. I'll fire off a few and then check to see what the velocity is and whether there are any signs of over pressure. From what you're telling me it sounds like that's about as far as I should go with this powder. There has to be a combination that works if they're making factory loads with this bullet.

Andrew Wiggin
07-01-2013, 09:31
There has to be a combination that works if they're making factory loads with this bullet.

Not necessarily. There are endless examples of factory loads that are ridiculously ineffective. We can start with the gimmicky stuff like Xtreme Sock !!!11!!one!!! (you have to yell when you say it) or Grizzly, etc. Then there are loads like some of the Z-max or Critical Defense loads from Hornady that are high quality ammunition, just not well suited for personal defense. Or Federal's continued use of Hi-Shok and Hydrashok bullets in defensive ammunition, despite the fact that those bullets have repeatedly been proven to be unreliable through clothing. They also produce the outstanding HST but have decided not to discontinue the less effective bullets for some reason.

Hopefully, some day Shadow will be able to do a pull-down of the BB load. Even then, we have no way of knowing for sure if the BB load is over pressure.

SDGlock23
07-02-2013, 07:55
I really appreciate all the info. I spent quite some time trying to find a formula that would work for these and didn't find much. I guess I need to look at changing powders. It's tough to get what you need these days. All the powder and bullets are either out of stock or back ordered. Anyway, that's how I wound up with this stuff. Just trying to make it work. The present load of 4.6 gr isn't pushing the bullet fast enough for it to perform. I have a few loaded with 4.8gr of the wst already. I'll fire off a few and then check to see what the velocity is and whether there are any signs of over pressure. From what you're telling me it sounds like that's about as far as I should go with this powder. There has to be a combination that works if they're making factory loads with this bullet.

Since you have a KKM bbl, I'd be on the lookout for Power Pistol, Longshot and 800x. As others have said, the bullet is very long for it's weight but with a good barrel and the right powder I'm sure you could get at least 1200 from your G22 using the powders I mentioned. WST is for light target style loads, good powder but not the powder you want for max velocity.

capn jeff
07-02-2013, 12:01
thanks, I'll give that a try.

capn jeff
07-06-2013, 17:51
I fired a few of the 4.8gr WST loaded cartridges and basically there was no difference from the 4.6. They went out at right around 900fps. There was no indication of over pressure and they were very accurate. I haven't pulled the bullets from my target yet. It captures everything below 2500 fps. Once I get them I'll have some idea as to whether they are expanding or not. My next test will be with some WSF that I have laying around. I'll let you know.

dm1906
07-06-2013, 18:38
Not really surprised with the 4.8 gr. load. At 900 FPS, it's about as threatening as a .38 Spl. WST does very well for .38 Spl target loads, BTW.

WSF will be a much better powder, but still less than ideal. Still target grade.