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floorburn_21
01-08-2013, 18:58
I used the search function here and on the GATE section without finding what I wanted.

I would like to do an SBR (in addition to my 6920 and 6.8)at some point. With the way things are right now, I haven't bought another lower, I've just been spending money on ammo for the closet. Hopefully that dies down but who knows.

It is my understanding that I could either buy a lower and register it (6 months and $200), THEN have it engraved, or buy a lower from a class three dealer, and play the waiting game to bring it home then.

My question is, are there benefits to either? I'm assuming buying the lower, paying the stamp, and getting it engraved would be cheaper but I am not sure.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

WoodenPlank
01-08-2013, 19:03
I used the search function here and on the GATE section without finding what I wanted.

I would like to do an SBR (in addition to my 6920 and 6.8)at some point. With the way things are right now, I haven't bought another lower, I've just been spending money on ammo for the closet. Hopefully that dies down but who knows.

It is my understanding that I could either buy a lower and register it (6 months and $200), THEN have it engraved, or buy a lower from a class three dealer, and play the waiting game to bring it home then.

My question is, are there benefits to either? I'm assuming buying the lower, paying the stamp, and getting it engraved would be cheaper but I am not sure.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Price works out about the same, IMO.

Buying a complete factory SBR means you get a warranty on the full rifle. Given that some SBRs can be a bit finicky, this can be a good thing. A complete factory SBR also will have a higher resale value, since your name won't be plastered on it.

Building off a stripped lower lets you pay for parts over time, and build it with the exact parts you want from the beginning. The engraving is an extra cost and headache, though.

floorburn_21
01-08-2013, 19:29
Thanks Plank

chemcmndr
01-08-2013, 19:32
Plank about hit the nail on the head. All of my SBR's are on F1's so I've been able to build them as pistols and play with them while the paperwork was pending. Getting them engraved isn't too terrible. I was able to find a trophy shop that did excellent work for a very good price. However, you run the risk doing it that way. I've had another trophy shop do a terrible job compared to the others.

Big Bird
01-08-2013, 19:41
Price works out about the same, IMO.

Buying a complete factory SBR means you get a warranty on the full rifle. Given that some SBRs can be a bit finicky, this can be a good thing. A complete factory SBR also will have a higher resale value, since your name won't be plastered on it.

Building off a stripped lower lets you pay for parts over time, and build it with the exact parts you want from the beginning. The engraving is an extra cost and headache, though.


BTW, did you ever get your LMT SBR up and running?

WoodenPlank
01-08-2013, 19:45
BTW, did you ever get your LMT SBR up and running?

Yep! The busted BCM bolt arrived at BCM on a Monday, and I had a spiffy new replacement carrier on Friday, complete with extra goodies. Been running like a champ ever since.

Big Bird
01-08-2013, 19:58
Yep! The busted BCM bolt arrived at BCM on a Monday, and I had a spiffy new replacement carrier on Friday, complete with extra goodies. Been running like a champ ever since.

Good for you. That will teach you to buy a BCM BCG in the future. My ole' non-milspec semi-auto Bushamster BCG rund my LMT upper perfectly:tongueout:

Just kidding...Just kidding:supergrin:

LA_357SIG
01-08-2013, 20:03
You could just SBR an existing lower. Get it engraved first (has to be .003" deep) and then submit a Form 1. You would be using the original manufacturer's serial number and you can wait 6 months until you get the tax stamp back to buy an upper... or get an existing barrel cut down.

You could even buy a complete AR Pistol (Less than 12") SBR the lower and put a carbine stock on it when the stamp clears. You could use it the whole time as a pistol while you wait.

WoodenPlank
01-08-2013, 20:11
You could just SBR an existing lower. Get it engraved first (has to be .003" deep) and then submit a Form 1. You would be using the original manufacturer's serial number and you can wait 6 months until you get the tax stamp back to buy an upper... or get an existing barrel cut down.

You could even buy a complete AR Pistol (Less than 12") SBR the lower and put a carbine stock on it when the stamp clears. You could use it the whole time as a pistol while you wait.

This is probably the best way to go if you are doing a Form 1.

floorburn_21
01-08-2013, 21:04
You could just SBR an existing lower. Get it engraved first (has to be .003" deep) and then submit a Form 1. You would be using the original manufacturer's serial number and you can wait 6 months until you get the tax stamp back to buy an upper... or get an existing barrel cut down.

You could even buy a complete AR Pistol (Less than 12") SBR the lower and put a carbine stock on it when the stamp clears. You could use it the whole time as a pistol while you wait.

Any idea on what a pistol runs usally? Kind of hard to price check with the market...:upeyes: I have a Colt and a Bison Armory. I want quality but I don't need another 2k rifle either. And by the way, I knew you guys would help me out. Thanks again. :wavey:

RWBlue
01-08-2013, 21:13
There one more thing about doing your own Form1. Lets assume that legislation passes and no more NFA stuff can be made. Then you have a KABOOM. The lower is buggered up. Technically as the manufacturer of the gun you can fix it any way you want.

WoodenPlank
01-08-2013, 21:18
Any idea on what a pistol runs usally? Kind of hard to price check with the market...:upeyes: I have a Colt and a Bison Armory. I want quality but I don't need another 2k rifle either. And by the way, I knew you guys would help me out. Thanks again. :wavey:

Been a while since I priced any. You can always build a pistol off a stripped receiver, though.

wct097
01-09-2013, 09:16
A couple points of clarification, based on my knowledge and research of the subject.


It is my understanding that I could either buy a lower and register it (6 months and $200), THEN have it engraved,

You have to engrave it when manufacturing the SBR. Most people do this BEFORE getting the stamp back.

or buy a lower from a class three dealer, and play the waiting game to bring it home then.

By definition, a SBR is only an SBR when it has a stock and barrel installed. There is no such thing as a "SBR Lower" as it wouldn't be under the pervue of the NFA being that it is simply a Title 1 firearm receiver at that point.

I'm not saying that a dealer has never transferred a "SBR lower" before, but legally the SBR has to match the description on the Form 4. If it doesn't have a barrel, then the caliber, OAL, etc wouldn't match the actual weapon being transferred.

RWBlue
01-09-2013, 12:26
1. You have to engrave it when manufacturing the SBR. Most people do this BEFORE getting the stamp back.



2. By definition, a SBR is only an SBR when it has a stock and barrel installed. There is no such thing as a "SBR Lower" as it wouldn't be under the pervue of the NFA being that it is simply a Title 1 firearm receiver at that point.


I don't know about these items.

1. I seem to remember a case where someone DIDN'T mark their SBR with their name and it went to court. I believe, the decision was, it is registered to the serial number and the serial number is there, so they are good to go.

2. Once a machine gun always a machine gun, right. Once a rifle always a rifle. So if I have a SBR, and reconfigure it to be a pistol or a regular rifle, it is still a SBR, correct? So if I take my SBR configured to be a pistol to a state that doesn't allow SBR, now I am illegal?

chemcmndr
01-09-2013, 15:26
I don't know about these items.

1. I seem to remember a case where someone DIDN'T mark their SBR with their name and it went to court. I believe, the decision was, it is registered to the serial number and the serial number is there, so they are good to go.

2. Once a machine gun always a machine gun, right. Once a rifle always a rifle. So if I have a SBR, and reconfigure it to be a pistol or a regular rifle, it is still a SBR, correct? So if I take my SBR configured to be a pistol to a state that doesn't allow SBR, now I am illegal?

As far as #1, I couldn't tell you. Most in law enforcement are not this up to speed on the NFA and all of the nuances about it, although I have all of mine engraved just to be sure.

For #2, that's not 100% true anymore. The ATF recently ruled that (at least in the case of an AR-15) if you start from a virgin stripped lower receiver, you can first build it into a pistol configuration, then at some point later, put a stock and 16"+ barrel on it (non-NFA rifle), then take it back to a pistol configuration without violating any laws. However, if the receiver is first built into a rifle, it must be registered to put a shorter barrel on it, even if you were to switch it to a pistol configuration.

As far as transferring an SBR AR-15 lower... True that it is not in an NFA configuration when just a lower, but the serial number is still on file with the ATF. Really all you're doing when you file the form 1 is register a serial number and the configuration you intend to build the firearm in. Once it is built, you can reconfigure it any way you please. The ATF only asks that you inform them of any permanent change. I'd be willing to bet money that if you were to try and file a Form 4 to transfer an SBR with a 7" 9mm barrel that was originally papered on a Form 1 as a 11.5" 5.56, it would be denied since the caliber and length don't match what's on file with the ATF. Since the AR is such a modular platform, no barrel/caliber change is really "permanent".

wct097
01-09-2013, 17:15
I don't know about these items.

1. I seem to remember a case where someone DIDN'T mark their SBR with their name and it went to court. I believe, the decision was, it is registered to the serial number and the serial number is there, so they are good to go.

I personally spoke with an employee at the NFA branch and was told that the lower had to be engraved. I asked for clarification as I did not really want to engrave and wanted to be sure (a) that I had to, and (b) what exactly needed to be engraved.


2. Once a machine gun always a machine gun, right. Once a rifle always a rifle. So if I have a SBR, and reconfigure it to be a pistol or a regular rifle, it is still a SBR, correct? So if I take my SBR configured to be a pistol to a state that doesn't allow SBR, now I am illegal?

Machine guns aren't SBRs.

If you install a 16" barrel on your SBR you can sell it to someone else as a title 1 weapon, making it no longer an SBR.

From the ATF:


Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html

wct097
01-09-2013, 17:19
The ATF only asks that you inform them of any permanent change. I'd be willing to bet money that if you were to try and file a Form 4 to transfer an SBR with a 7" 9mm barrel that was originally papered on a Form 1 as a 11.5" 5.56, it would be denied since the caliber and length don't match what's on file with the ATF. Since the AR is such a modular platform, no barrel/caliber change is really "permanent".

Exactly. If you have stripped lower that was registered on a Form 1 with an 11.5" 5.56 barrel, what are you going to put on your Form 4? Are you going to lie and state that you're transferring an 11.5" 5.56 SBR, or are you going to state that it has no barrel and no longer matches the Form 1?

RWBlue
01-09-2013, 18:03
I have been looking for this for a while.
http://s149.beta.photobucket.com/user/Donr101395/media/ATFengravingletter.jpg.html

WoodenPlank
01-09-2013, 18:41
I personally spoke with an employee at the NFA branch and was told that the lower had to be engraved. I asked for clarification as I did not really want to engrave and wanted to be sure (a) that I had to, and (b) what exactly needed to be engraved.



Machine guns aren't SBRs.

If you install a 16" barrel on your SBR you can sell it to someone else as a title 1 weapon, making it no longer an SBR.

From the ATF:



http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html


You can only do this once it is removed from the NFA registry.

wct097
01-09-2013, 20:46
You can only do this once it is removed from the NFA registry.

Not according to the ATF:

A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html

...which really goes to my original point that you can't transfer an "SBR lower" as it's no longer an SBR.

vettely
01-09-2013, 20:55
When I did it I just considered it as "being married" to my lower receiver. The lower receiver only.

wct097
01-09-2013, 21:14
When I did it I just considered it as "being married" to my lower receiver. The lower receiver only.

Kinda where I am. I can't imagine selling off my (form 1 pending) SBR lower as either a title 1 firearm or an SBR. It's got my name engraved on it, so it's not going anywhere.

chemcmndr
01-09-2013, 21:26
Exactly. If you have stripped lower that was registered on a Form 1 with an 11.5" 5.56 barrel, what are you going to put on your Form 4? Are you going to lie and state that you're transferring an 11.5" 5.56 SBR, or are you going to state that it has no barrel and no longer matches the Form 1?

Well, let's say that you build a 11.5" 5.56 SBR, and then at some point, get rid of the upper and go to a 7" 9mm. If you go and try to transfer it, and put 7" and 9mm on the F4, the ATF will deny it because it doesn't match what is in their database. You haven't broken the law because the ATF only requests that you notify them of the change, and even then it isn't permanent.

I guess what I was merely getting at was that, yes, you are correct in that selling an SBR lower sans upper receiver no longer constitutes transferring an SBR, but the ATF would still approve a transfer if you used the same information on the F4. If the buyer wanted to buy an SBR lower, but wanted to use a different upper on it, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to go that route.

wct097
01-09-2013, 21:32
I guess what I was merely getting at was that, yes, you are correct in that selling an SBR lower sans upper receiver no longer constitutes transferring an SBR, but the ATF would still approve a transfer if you used the same information on the F4. If the buyer wanted to buy an SBR lower, but wanted to use a different upper on it, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to go that route.

True. You could work a way around it, but legally, you'd have to transfer the gun as described on the form 4. If you and the seller had an agreement for you to give the upper to the seller after the transfer, effectively selling you just the lower as a SBR, you'd probably be good. All you'd need to do is notify the ATF of the change after you took possession.

If you were simply transferring a stripped lower as an SBR using the original configuration on the Form 4, you'd have to lie when signing that form. While I'm unsure what, if any, penalty there is for that action, I wouldn't suggest finding out the hard way.

I would not, however, want to be the dealer selling a "SBR Lower" when the ATF came by to inspect the inventory and found a Form 4 pending SBR that didn't match the Form 1/3/4 it was currently transferred on.

jbotstein1
01-10-2013, 04:08
I know nobody knows as of now, but in light of the future promised/threatened legislation, if I were to submit a couple of form 1s on 2 stripped lowers I have now, would that still be considered before any sort of AWB if there is one?

I hope I don't get this thread off track as it's full of good info. I can start a new thread if need be. Thanks.

wct097
01-10-2013, 05:15
I know nobody knows as of now, but in light of the future promised/threatened legislation, if I were to submit a couple of form 1s on 2 stripped lowers I have now, would that still be considered before any sort of AWB if there is one?

I hope I don't get this thread off track as it's full of good info. I can start a new thread if need be. Thanks.

I don't think anyone can say with any certainty. If a new AWB came down similar to the old AWB, I would guess that any currently owned firearms would be grandfathered as "pre-ban" and thus not covered by the new AWB. Technically the stripped lowers would probably need to be assembled prior to the ban going into effect, but the burden of proof that they were not would be pretty high for a receiver manufactured well before the ban.

That said, the gun grabbers learned a lot about how people worked around the last ban, so I doubt we'll see a similar ban come into effect. It'll probably be much worse and considerably broader. The best bet is to fight it tooth and nail rather than to plan to deal with it.

wct097
01-10-2013, 11:23
I know nobody knows as of now, but in light of the future promised/threatened legislation, if I were to submit a couple of form 1s on 2 stripped lowers I have now, would that still be considered before any sort of AWB if there is one?

I hope I don't get this thread off track as it's full of good info. I can start a new thread if need be. Thanks.

If you want a couple SBRs eventually, go ahead and send in the Form 1s. Best case scenario, when you're ready to build you already have your stamps and can just do it. Worst case, an ban happens and you get your money back because they haven't processed them prior to the ban.