What would you have done? . . . [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Rixtoy1
01-10-2013, 21:38
In today's Wichita Eagle - Yesterday, a woman was in the drive-up at MCDonalds in Wichita and (long story short) a big SUV with blacked out windows pushes its way into line from the side in front of her, words are exchanged and she bumps the SUV. Driver (female) gets out and throws a crowbar at her windshield, hits it and doesn't break. The victim decides to get the Hell out of Dodge (well, wichita) and backs up to try and get away - a guy steps out of the rear of the sUV with a shotgun - pumps it- and blast her car door from 10 feet as she is pulling away. Door is peppered, but no glass break or injuries. So this question - my wife and I both carry legally and in the car. We talked it over and "think" if we could flee when the guy pulls the gun, that would be choice 1, but if we couldn't back up and he points the shotgun, you have no choice but to take him out. We are new at this - opinions? BTW - she had the license plate (really?) and they picked up the dude and his girlfriend at their house 3 hours later after a confrontation.

Annoyinglylongname
01-10-2013, 21:56
Anytime you can get away without shooting, its the right thing to do. Macho BS aside

JLeephoto
01-10-2013, 22:04
Dude with the long name nailed this one right out of the gate. The purpose of a defensive firearm is to extricate ones self from danger. Sounds like in this case the gas pedal was a better tool.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

HKLovingIT
01-10-2013, 22:35
1. Avoid.
2. Deescalate.
3. Get the hell out of dodge if you can do so safely without endangering yourself or the people you are responsible for.
4. Never go outside the house at night to investigate that strange noise.
5. Read this article: http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp
6. Read this web site: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
7. Buy this book:

Amazon.com: Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry (9781440232671): Massad Ayoob: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Gqfoh9sEL.@@AMEPARAM@@51Gqfoh9sEL

8. Always wear your hat and insist that others do as well.

Tiro Fijo
01-10-2013, 23:52
Facts:

http://www.kwch.com/news/crimewatch/kwch-jab-police-looking-for-shooter-in-drivethru-rage-incident-20130109,0,2842371.story


Real blue ribbon winners, this pair.

HarleyGuy
01-11-2013, 00:21
I think back to what an instructor told me years ago about being prepared to get punched in a fist fight, to get cut in a knife fight, or to get shot in a gun fight.

If you can safely exit a situation where gun(s) are pulled, do so as quickly as possible.

If you have no option, then you have no option but to attempt to protect yourself by any means possible, including lethal force with a firearm.

A handgun (regardless of caliber) is not an even match in firepower to a long gun (rifle or shotgun).

SouthernBoyVA
01-11-2013, 04:31
First, never be party to any antagonizing efforts by some jerk; do not help escalate the situation. Second, if you can get away then do so... even if you are not required by law to retreat. Remember, just because you are in the right and armed doesn't mean you are going to win in a deadly confrontation. Third, if there is no escape and you're faced with a deadly threat, stop that threat with whatever means are at your disposal. Guy gets out of a vehicle with a firearm and fires at you, if you're close enough, use your vehicle and ram him if possible. If not and you have your own firearm, use it (this can be difficult in a vehicle).

Point is, try your best to not be part of a problem. If you see something developing, be prudent, use your head, and apply common sense. Deadly force is the last response you want to use but if you must, use it with deliberation and purpose.

dosei
01-11-2013, 05:19
I would have:
Not "exchanged words"
Not bumped their vehicle with my own

Thus:
Nothing news-worthy would have happened...and that's a good thing.

Rixtoy1
01-11-2013, 05:32
Thanks all - well done.
I am encouraged by the lack of "Cowboy Up" bravado . . .
And, I suspect this same question has been asked before, but I didn't get pummeled for asking the question.

Now, Part II-
If you are in a third car, and the shotgun guy blasts through an open window to mortally wound the driver of the second car - how does this change your response? Seriously, - if you feel you are at potential risk , do you act? - or, only when it is your life on the line (again, I am sure this is covered in some of the referenced materials - my apologies).

HKLovingIT
01-11-2013, 05:39
Thanks all - well done.
I am encouraged by the lack of "Cowboy Up" bravado . . .
And, I suspect this same question has been asked before, but I didn't get pummeled for asking the question.

Now, Part II-
If you are in a third car, and the shotgun guy blasts through an open window to mortally wound the driver of the second car - how does this change your response? Seriously, - if you feel you are at potential risk , do you act? - or, only when it is your life on the line (again, I am sure this is covered in some of the referenced materials - my apologies).

As I said, read this article: http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

Rixtoy1
01-11-2013, 05:49
As I said, read this article: http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

I now have - very well written.
Thanks.

Clay1
01-11-2013, 06:12
Agree with all of the "get out of there responses". Now the question was what would have been a logical choice if you could NOT get out of there.

A weapon, is a state of mind more than it is the hardware. In this case I don't think that I would be trying any fast draw with my 9mm, but you have available a two thousand pound plus ram rod. You are in the car already don't forget that sometimes you can use the gas pedal more effectively than the trigger.

GRIMLET
01-11-2013, 07:15
I agree to evacuate the area if you can.

If that isnt an option, in this situation, hit the gas and pin the shotgun shooter in between vehicles. If he still has control over the shotgun and is a threat, then draw and act appropriately.

If you are the third car in line and the shotgun shooter is racking and aiming the shotgun laterally at the evacuating vehicle, do you do the above or duck and cover or both?



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DWARREN123
01-11-2013, 08:40
As a civillian always try to get away and/or take the situation to a lower level.
Having said that, when you can not do the suggested thing protect yourself and those you love.

HKLovingIT
01-11-2013, 10:16
Agree with all of the "get out of there responses". Now the question was what would have been a logical choice if you could NOT get out of there.

A weapon, is a state of mind more than it is the hardware. In this case I don't think that I would be trying any fast draw with my 9mm, but you have available a two thousand pound plus ram rod. You are in the car already don't forget that sometimes you can use the gas pedal more effectively than the trigger.

If you can't get out of there, take cover. I'm assuming the scenario you postulate is that you are not being specifically targeted but are witnessing something. As you say though, if you are in a running car, your options to get the hell out of there are dramatically increased in most cases. That doesn't mean running people over but if you have to bump through a fence or hop a curb to get out of the danger zone, press ze gas pedal man.

Bruce M
01-11-2013, 11:36
... We talked it over and "think" if we could flee when the guy pulls the gun, that would be choice 1, but if we couldn't back up and he points the shotgun, you have no choice but to take him out. ....



I agree that leave if you can safely is usually the best choice and almost always the less expensive choice.

I also think it pays to remember that good guys do not always prevail in a gun fight. Sometimes one can only try to "take him out" but not be successful in that.

RadarP3C
01-11-2013, 14:39
Wow, times are crazy when you have to preplan an escape route while in a drive through line just in case. :shocked:

robhic
01-11-2013, 16:56
There was an incident around here about 2-3 years ago. Mother and son in drive thru at Arbees. Guy jumps in car attempting a carjack.

Son is packing. Shoots the would be carjacker and all is right with the world. It was during the day so you just never know. A drive thru! You can't be too careful.

dosei
01-11-2013, 17:24
Wow, times are crazy when you have to preplan an escape route while in a drive through line just in case. :shocked:

Wake up and stop living in condition white...sheesh, it's a lesson I learned and took to heart as a little kid (complements of the school bullies) almost 40 years ago (growing up in a small Mennonite farming town in the midwest).

SilverBullet_83
01-11-2013, 17:50
You said she bumped the SUV and then this confrontation occured? If I have read that right, then her swlf defense excuse would have been torn apart.

steveksux
01-11-2013, 17:54
You said she bumped the SUV and then this confrontation occured? If I have read that right, then her swlf defense excuse would have been torn apart.
Yeah, words exchanged and then bumping the car complicates the self defense theory.

She really taught them a lesson though! :rofl:

You kind of give up the right to be a dick to people when you're carrying, even when they deserve it, you should strive to be the bigger person.

Randy

ScottieG59
01-11-2013, 19:32
This is a no win situation since it can be easily said that neither side was clean on this. If one is to feel "disrespected" and gets angry when someone cuts into line and bumps the other car, who is to say if it is or is not an attack on the occupants.

When the legal process runs its course, there is no way to know how it will go since there is no clearly defined aggressor and defender. There are just angry people.

The smart thing is to avoid the situation and deescalate things quickly. It may mean running away. If you do not give yourself options, you would have to fight it out and hope for the best, but counting on an understanding justice system is foolish.

If you are not 100% clearly the defender, you will be facing a tough road ahead.

Bren
01-11-2013, 20:15
In today's Wichita Eagle - Yesterday, a woman was in the drive-up at MCDonalds in Wichita and (long story short) a big SUV with blacked out windows pushes its way into line from the side in front of her, words are exchanged and she bumps the SUV. Driver (female) gets out and throws a crowbar at her windshield, hits it and doesn't break. The victim decides to get the Hell out of Dodge (well, wichita) and backs up to try and get away - a guy steps out of the rear of the sUV with a shotgun - pumps it- and blast her car door from 10 feet as she is pulling away. Door is peppered, but no glass break or injuries. So this question - my wife and I both carry legally and in the car. We talked it over and "think" if we could flee when the guy pulls the gun, that would be choice 1, but if we couldn't back up and he points the shotgun, you have no choice but to take him out. We are new at this - opinions? BTW - she had the license plate (really?) and they picked up the dude and his girlfriend at their house 3 hours later after a confrontation.

If you are in your running car and there is a guy with a shotgun standing a few feet away, your car is the most powerful weapon there, unless you can't turn enough to hit him with it.

RussP
01-11-2013, 21:32
If you are in your running car and there is a guy with a shotgun standing a few feet away, your car is the most powerful weapon there, unless you can't turn enough to hit him with it.NEVER EVER pull so close behind a car that you cannot maneuver out of danger.

Tiro Fijo
01-11-2013, 22:44
NEVER EVER pull so close behind a car that you cannot maneuver out of danger.


True, but to go around exposes your vulnerable flank. In Hollywood a real "operator" would have done a one handed (weak hand) Mozambique while simultaneously executing a Texas J. :whistling: :supergrin:

SouthernBoyVA
01-12-2013, 04:11
NEVER EVER pull so close behind a car that you cannot maneuver out of danger.

True. The rule of thumb is you want to be able to see the entire vehicle stopped in front of you. I allow a little more space than that just for escape.

Rixtoy1
01-12-2013, 05:36
True, but to go around exposes your vulnerable flank. In Hollywood a real "operator" would have done a one handed (weak hand) Mozambique while simultaneously executing a Texas J. :whistling: :supergrin:

Umm, I think a "one handed Mozambique" is illegal in Kansas . . . at least, in public . . .

A6Gator
01-12-2013, 08:32
True. The rule of thumb is you want to be able to see the entire vehicle stopped in front of you. I allow a little more space than that just for escape.

Never any closer than not being able to see the bottom of the rear tires.

Mr Spock
01-12-2013, 21:24
Thanks all - well done.
I am encouraged by the lack of "Cowboy Up" bravado . . .
And, I suspect this same question has been asked before, but I didn't get pummeled for asking the question.

Now, Part II-
If you are in a third car, and the shotgun guy blasts through an open window to mortally wound the driver of the second car - how does this change your response? Seriously, - if you feel you are at potential risk , do you act? - or, only when it is your life on the line (again, I am sure this is covered in some of the referenced materials - my apologies).


In RE: the first question - as others have said, she was a fool for getting into an argument and a complete moron for bumping the car.

If I am in the third car and I see these two arguing/yelling at each other, and bumping each others' cars, and then shooting at one another, my reaction would be to GTFO of my car ASAP so I'm not a sitting target, put at least an engine block between me and either of the cars, and get out of there/call 911 as the situation permitted. Your scenario describes the shooter not as someone on a rampage, but just as someone with a serious bone to pick with one specific person, with whom they were arguing, and who just hit the shooter's car intentionally. As the third car I know not whether there is history between these two, this was ongoing, or whether this was some sort of drug/crime hit, and I'm not going to risk my life, right to carry, or freedom with that many unknowns, facing superior firepower (I would only have my CCW pistol against a man who has already deployed a shotgun).

SCmasterblaster
01-14-2013, 12:43
If someone points a shotgun at MY car, he/she get shot, several times.