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nuclear g17
01-13-2013, 16:05
British Army buys 25,000 Gen4 G17 Pistols. Glock is 500,000 guns behind and has 875,000 mags on back order. Many new contracts overseas.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-army-buys-glock-17-1528571

tonyparson
01-13-2013, 16:19
British Army buys 25,000 Gen4 G17 Pistols. Glock is 500,000 guns behind and has 875,000 mags on back order. Many new contracts overseas.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-army-buys-glock-17-1528571

Where did you get your numbers about Glock being 875,000 mags on back order and 500,000 guns behind??

AustinTx
01-13-2013, 16:31
I thought this was yesterday?

nuclear g17
01-13-2013, 16:33
I just went to the factory. That is how far they are behind.

HGxyz
01-13-2013, 16:40
Maybe that's why the G32 I ordered in February arrived in December.

UKarmr
01-13-2013, 16:49
Well I don't know about your side of the pond, but we are expecting delivery of all of them prior to April. The initial 2000 for train the trainer & maintainer courses arrived in Dec

unit1069
01-13-2013, 18:19
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.

What exactly is it that makes a Glock G-17 "more deadly" than the Browning Hi Power?

jeremy1
01-13-2013, 18:45
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.

What exactly is it that makes a Glock G-17 "more deadly" than the Browning Hi Power?


So true. I love my Glocks but that is some media hype to say that it is more deadly. A better capacity and lighter weight is about it. On my last tour most of the Brits I met had newer mark III's. still a fine pistol

FLAHOTROD
01-13-2013, 18:52
That's the same kind of thinking that makes an"assault rifle" more dangerous than any other type of rifle. Just plain and simple ignorance.

unit1069
01-13-2013, 18:56
So true. I love my Glocks but that is some media hype to say that it is more deadly. A better capacity and lighter weight is about it. On my last tour most of the Brits I met had newer mark III's. still a fine pistol

Yes, a "progressive" media blitz to demonize firearms, especially any high-capacity handgun or rifle. Funny how the Browning escaped the politically-correct "10-round minimum" jihad currently underway, but then editors understand how to manipulate public opinion given that the MI-5 invented the push poll in 1940.

I do think like you the G-17 may be an improvement insofar as capacity and weight but as far as "deadly", well ... , ... that's just nonsense.

im413
01-13-2013, 19:05
Maybe this why I can't find a G17 Mag to save my soul.

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M 7
01-13-2013, 20:45
Glock is 500,000 guns behind and has 875,000 mags on back order.

Glock personnel told you this? Whoa. :shocked:

tcallre
01-13-2013, 20:57
Makes good sense. The GP35 is well beyond it's life, needs expensive maintenance and is due for replacement. The G17 is rugged, light weight, proven design, easy to train on, combat accurate, and even though the Brits may pay a pretty penny for them, economical. This platform should last them a long time. If I were king this is the choice I'd make.

G36_Me
01-13-2013, 22:24
If this is true, then a good choice.

ChrisJn
01-13-2013, 23:59
British Army buys 25,000 Gen4 G17 Pistols.........

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-army-buys-glock-17-1528571

For 9,000,000.
At current exchange rates that is $576 per pistol! Poor British tax payer ripped off again.
Just to let my fellow Brits know, LE and Military here in USA can buy them for $399 as an individual

UKarmr
01-14-2013, 00:00
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.

What exactly is it that makes a Glock G-17 "more deadly" than the Browning Hi Power?

The paper quoted isn't exactly high brow reading....
There was a trial process that included
Sig P226
Glock gen 3 (possibly why one poster saw them in use)
Glock gen 4
Beretta PX
Brownings current Version
Steyr M9
S&W M&P
HK P30

The Gen 4 won the trial outright.

UKarmr
01-14-2013, 00:03
For 9,000,000.
At current exchange rates that is $576 per pistol! Poor British tax payer ripped off again.
Just to let my fellow Brits know, LE and Military here in USA can buy them for $399 as an individual

That figure isn't just the purchase price, it includes initial training package, spares package, ancillaries such as spare magazines, cleaning kits, holsters etc

bigred0383
01-14-2013, 00:11
There was another article about this that said they made the switch because they felt the Browning's were not as reliable as they used to be.

Riiiiiight.

ChrisJn
01-14-2013, 00:24
There was another article about this that said they made the switch because they felt the Browning's were not as reliable as they used to be.

Riiiiiight.

Hey, nothing wrong with the Browning but have to admit old technology compared to Glock

bigred0383
01-14-2013, 00:33
Hey, nothing wrong with the Browning but have to admit old technology compared to Glock

I am sure it's an a great think from an armorer's standpoint. Repairs, inventory, etc.

Great from a training standpoint as well.

But come on, after no major design changes in what...50 years (when they went to an external extractor), all of a sudden BHP's became unreliable?

Just be honest, for ease of use and cost savings its a no brainer, so why oversell it?

Rustin
01-14-2013, 00:41
Hey, nothing wrong with the Browning but have to admit old technology compared to Glock


The Glock is not exactly advanced technology. It uses the same browning linkless tilting barrel and a similar double stack magazine based on the browning.

It holds 4 more rounds, but also has a bigger grip which many can't get a proper hold on.

The Glock is lighter due to polymer but Glock did not pioneer the use of polymer.Polymer just seems to be the preference today.

Also striker fired pistols go way back to the luger.

Both are great. I prefer the Glock but the BHp is not very far behind.

BicycleDay43
01-14-2013, 01:27
It's funny too because the news reports on the story are going on about how, 'the Glock is an advanced handgun with THREE safeties! PERFECT for the British Army!'. I hope they give several safety classes to the troops over there. I can see some AD's in the future...


-BD43

Foxtrotx1
01-14-2013, 01:44
That is a lot of brass to the face.

Hopefully they wear safety glasses when training with those pistols.

Lior
01-14-2013, 02:04
What exactly is it that makes a Glock G-17 "more deadly" than the Browning Hi Power?


The ability to carry four more cartridges in its magazine.

FNFAN
01-14-2013, 02:11
Well that's exciting! Since they're "less deadly" maybe we can get our political folk to mass import the kinder, friendlier P35's at a discount price.

Where's that link to the "petition" site? :)

brisk21
01-14-2013, 08:10
The Glock is not exactly advanced technology. It uses the same browning linkless tilting barrel and a similar double stack magazine based on the browning.

It holds 4 more rounds, but also has a bigger grip which many can't get a proper hold on.

The Glock is lighter due to polymer but Glock did not pioneer the use of polymer.Polymer just seems to be the preference today.

Also striker fired pistols go way back to the luger.

Both are great. I prefer the Glock but the BHp is not very far behind.

That must be why so many agencies still use the Hi-power........:whistling:

Scrappy
01-14-2013, 08:57
The Sig P226 tactical with 20 rds would be more deadly then the G17? LMAO

JBP55
01-14-2013, 11:10
The Sig P226 tactical with 20 rds would be more deadly then the G17? LMAO

Does that make the G17 with a G18 33 round magazine more deadly than the Sig? :cool:

Scrappy
01-14-2013, 11:40
Does that make the G17 with a G18 33 round magazine more deadly than the Sig? :cool:

Yeah maybe he should of added that in
.lol

AustinTx
01-14-2013, 13:53
I am sure it's an a great think from an armorer's standpoint. Repairs, inventory, etc.

Great from a training standpoint as well.

But come on, after no major design changes in what...50 years (when they went to an external extractor), all of a sudden BHP's became unreliable?

Just be honest, for ease of use and cost savings its a no brainer, so why oversell it?

The BHP has always had an external extractor.

Browning is always credited with the link-less tilting barrel but the HP came along 6-8 years after J. Browning died. Don't know why it matters.

Mike-M
01-14-2013, 21:52
The BHP has always had an external extractor.

Absolutely not. The original BHP (and the Inglis versions) had an internal extractor very similar to that used on M1911 pistols.

The external extractor was incorporated in the BHP in 1962.

AustinTx
01-14-2013, 22:12
Absolutely not. The original BHP (and the Inglis versions) had an internal extractor very similar to that used on M1911 pistols.

The external extractor was incorporated in the BHP in 1962.

My Belgium Browning had an external extractor. It must have been made after 1962, it looked older than that.

im413
01-14-2013, 22:28
British Army buys 25,000 Gen4 G17 Pistols. Glock is 500,000 guns behind and has 875,000 mags on back order. Many new contracts overseas.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-army-buys-glock-17-1528571

Maybe Glock will start cranking our more American Made Weapons and Mags to meet demand.

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ChiTownPicaro
01-14-2013, 22:44
Hopefully in the near future the Glock 17 will be adopted by the US military. I doubt it will happen but man I do love the Glock. I would love a Hi-Power but to me the Glock 17 is the premier combat pistol.

judgecrater
01-14-2013, 22:52
Makes good sense. The GP35 is well beyond it's life, needs expensive maintenance and is due for replacement. The G17 is rugged, light weight, proven design, easy to train on, combat accurate, and even though the Brits may pay a pretty penny for them, economical. This platform should last them a long time. If I were king this is the choice I'd make.
The beauty of the Glock is in its simplicity. Not to mention all but a few parts can be replaced for under $15 each, drop in.

UKarmr
01-15-2013, 13:40
Parts costs, and failure rate was a consideration.
I've lost count of the roll pins I've replaced in the firing pin shroud on the P226.

jcal0820
01-15-2013, 13:49
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/11/british-forces-afghanistan-glock-pistols

Excerpt from the (British) article above:
"..he described the decision to equip British troops with the weapon as a "massive step forward". He explained that with the Browning, a soldier had to undo the holster flap, flick the safety catch and draw a bullet from the magazine before firing a shot."

The old SOP of keeping your duty weapon, esp. if just a sidearm, in Green/Amber status is pointless, on the FOB or not. Condition Red is the only appropriate status while in a combat zone. Period.

"The Glock has built-in safety catches, and the pistol can be kept fully loaded with a round in the chamber even when it is in the holster."

At least the Brits now understand this, esp. in light of the rash of Insider Attacks. Hopefully, its brothers across the pond do as well.

MarcDW
01-15-2013, 14:04
Hopefully in the near future the Glock 17 will be adopted by the US military. I doubt it will happen but man I do love the Glock...

I hope the US military goes back to the .45.
So either they take the G37 or go to the HK45.

Foxtrotx1
01-15-2013, 14:32
I hope the US military goes back to the .45.
So either they take the G37 or go to the HK45.

Why? Soldiers can barely shoot with the 9mm. Why give them less rounds with decreased barrier penetration at a more expensive training cost?

UKarmr
01-15-2013, 14:34
Last time I was in Iraq, we went everywhere in pairs, armed, with no mag inserted. Sooo if attacked, draw, load, cock and fire.
Thankfully, I believe the SOP is now that whenever you are in a FOB you are loaded and made ready, decocked (Sig), hence in the last attack the Afgani individual only managed to kill 1 and injure 6 prior to being hit and killed himself, training now includes shoots such as being sat at a table no body armour/ helmet, pistol holstered. Engage targets on whistle blast etc.

In NI in the mid 90's I carried my HP made ready, however due to the safety being rubbish we used to put it to half cock putting a seatbelt between the hammer & firing pin.
Actions on was to draw and pull hammer to rear, got quite slick after a while practising!

Steel Head
01-15-2013, 14:45
That is a lot of brass to the face.

Hopefully they wear safety glasses when training with those pistols.
While the BTF is gettin old I still:rofl:
It does look like they are prepared.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo186/yellowheap/E662C097-90D9-4406-B59A-BE71938EE65B-6139-0000184494853673.jpg

UKarmr
01-15-2013, 15:22
While the BTF is gettin old I still:rofl:
It does look like they are prepared.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo186/yellowheap/E662C097-90D9-4406-B59A-BE71938EE65B-6139-0000184494853673.jpg

Ah yes, we have police, then we have transport police, then near the bottom of the pile we have HM prison service.
The most unarmed force in uk!

MarcDW
01-15-2013, 15:48
Why? Soldiers can barely shoot with the 9mm. Why give them less rounds with decreased barrier penetration at a more expensive training cost?

Because the 9mm FMJ is not a stopper as the .45 is.
These 2mm of FMJ make a difference!

ChiTownPicaro
01-15-2013, 17:19
Because the 9mm FMJ is not a stopper as the .45 is.
These 2mm of FMJ make a difference!
I agree but I think us not using Hollow-Points is the bigger problem. If the US was using hollow-points would it be an issue for you? I agree with you but I do feel that if I am in a combatzone with a pistol and a rifle, I will be using the rifle. Either way I still prefer the Glock over other service pistols.

Foxtrotx1
01-15-2013, 18:04
I agree but I think us not using Hollow-Points is the bigger problem. If the US was using hollow-points would it be an issue for you? I agree with you but I do feel that if I am in a combatzone with a pistol and a rifle, I will be using the rifle. Either way I still prefer the Glock over other service pistols.

45 hollow points would suffer penetration issues against steel targets.

For example, the FBI's use of the .38 super in favor of the .45. Car doors stopped the .45 much of the time.

How does this apply now? Well, many of the third world countries we might go to war with these days use mild steel helmets. Same story. Not to mention shooting people in cars, through doors ect.

UKarmr
01-16-2013, 14:05
And the fact that the military don't use hollow points anyway kind of moots the point. (Certain SF excepted of course)

MarcDW
01-16-2013, 16:15
A new thinking has to become the base of our decisions.
The time of when countries honored war conventions are simply said over.
A US POW today will be tortured and most likely murdered in front of a video camera and before the body is cold it's all over the internet! :steamed:

While we will keep to be a civilized nation and not lowering ourself to these levels, we should ask ourself if we should still follow outdated rules like "not inflecting more injury then necessary" to the enemy.
This definition by itself is vague.
So maybe the US Military should start to use HP ammo (which would end the stopping problem with the 5.56 as well) and just save the money!

Foxtrotx1
01-16-2013, 17:38
And the fact that the military don't use hollow points anyway kind of moots the point. (Certain SF excepted of course)

Can you name an SF group using hollow points?

AustinTx
01-16-2013, 18:02
Can you name an SF group using hollow points?

I can't name any SF, but:

The Russian 5.4539mm has an air space, under the point, of the bullet. It makes a wound channel pretty much like an HP. The gelatin block shots, that I've seen, made a pretty bad channel. The bullet nose sorta folds over, to the side and causes the bullet to start tumbling. I read somewhere, that the 7.62 x 39mm was made the same way, at one time.

I don't know, of any war the US has declared, since 1945.

AustinTx
01-16-2013, 18:05
Ah yes, we have police, then we have transport police, then near the bottom of the pile we have HM prison service.
The most unarmed force in uk!

I think he was referring to the face shields. Brass-To-the Face (BTF) thing, maybe not.

PAHLAVAN
01-16-2013, 22:51
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.

What exactly is it that makes a Glock G-17 "more deadly" than the Browning Hi Power?

I read the Hi Powers were becoming increasingly difficult to maintain due to age.

MarcDW
01-17-2013, 00:11
...
The Russian 5.4539mm has an air space, under the point, of the bullet. It makes a wound channel pretty much like an HP. The gelatin block shots, that I've seen, made a pretty bad channel. The bullet nose sorta folds over, to the side and causes the bullet to start tumbling. I read somewhere, that the 7.62 x 39mm was made the same way, at one time...

This was actually a manufacturing error and not all bullets even of the same lot have it.
In the 80's there was actually even an UN investigation about this, claiming that Russia (using this ammo in Afghanistan) violated the Geneva Convention.

The problem with these bullets is, that they are unstable in flight and start tumbling, which if they hit a target in this form has far greater results.
You have to see that the 5.45 has a quite long projectile.
To my information it however never changed in flight it's shape.

Later manufactured 5.45 does not have this manufacturing error anymore.

UKarmr
01-17-2013, 14:09
Can you name an SF group using hollow points?

I don't know of any, I just assumed that some SF units may use it for hostage rescue work.

As to the HP getting difficult to maintain, that's very true, I've used/ repaired some rattly old guns.

Slobo
01-27-2013, 17:16
Note thumb safety added above mag release to meet MOD requirement. Looks like Gen3, not Gen4 as tested.

4095fanatic
01-27-2013, 19:52
For 9,000,000.
At current exchange rates that is $576 per pistol! Poor British tax payer ripped off again.
Just to let my fellow Brits know, LE and Military here in USA can buy them for $399 as an individual

They might have meant the DEAL was worth 9m, which would include spare parts, training, warranty/repair agreements, etc. IIRC agreements like that can add value up to 50% of what the pistol itself costs.

Tiro Fijo
01-27-2013, 20:54
Note thumb safety added above mag release to meet MOD requirement. Looks like Gen3, not Gen4 as tested.


Glock could make a lot of money if they marketed that here for the Nervous Nellies. Call it the Israeli Carry Model!!

:rofl:

ChrisJn
01-27-2013, 21:35
They might have meant the DEAL was worth 9m, which would include spare parts, training, warranty/repair agreements, etc. IIRC agreements like that can add value up to 50% of what the pistol itself costs.

Yes, I understand. UKarmr made just that point much earlier in the thread.

UKarmr
01-28-2013, 02:52
Note thumb safety added above mag release to meet MOD requirement. Looks like Gen3, not Gen4 as tested.

I believe that's an old picture from a few years back, I think the Norwegians have those.
I can confirm we are purchasing Gen 4's with no extra safety devices

EODLRD
01-28-2013, 04:57
I read the Hi Powers were becoming increasingly difficult to maintain due to age.

Good. They can ship them to the US. I am sure there are a lot of us that would buy them.

AustinTx
01-28-2013, 22:24
This was actually a manufacturing error and not all bullets even of the same lot have it.
In the 80's there was actually even an UN investigation about this, claiming that Russia (using this ammo in Afghanistan) violated the Geneva Convention.

The problem with these bullets is, that they are unstable in flight and start tumbling, which if they hit a target in this form has far greater results.
You have to see that the 5.45 has a quite long projectile.
To my information it however never changed in flight it's shape.

Later manufactured 5.45 does not have this manufacturing error anymore.

"To my information it however never changed in flight it's shape."
That is a strange sentence.

Not a manufacturing error. Airspace in the nose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.45%D739mm

Quote:
"The Soviet original military issue 5N7 cartridge variant introduced in 1974 are loaded with full metal jacket bullets that have a somewhat complex construction. The 3.2 g (49.4 gr) boattail projectile has a gilding-metal-clad jacket. The unhardened steel core is covered by a thin lead coating which does not fill the entire point end, leaving a hollow cavity inside the nose. The bullet is cut to length during the manufacturing process to give the correct weight. The 5N7 uses a boattail design to reduce drag and there is a small lead plug crimped in place in the base of the bullet. The lead plug, in combination with the air space at the point of the bullet, has the effect of moving the bullet's center of gravity to the rear; the hollow air space also makes the bullet's point prone to deformation when the bullet strikes anything solid, inducing yaw. The brown-lacquered steel case is Berdan primed. Its 39.37 mm (1.55 in) length makes it slightly longer than the 7.6239mm case which measures exactly 38.60 mm (1.52 in). The primer has a copper cup and is sealed with a heavy red lacquer. The propellant charge is a ball powder with similar burning characteristics to the WC 844 powder used in 5.5645mm NATO ammunition. The 5N7 cartridge weight is 10.75 g (165.9 gr)."

I have seen this same info in other publications.

MarcDW
01-28-2013, 23:40
...I have seen this same info in other publications.

The trouble of Wikipedia is, that it is not always accurate.
After the Berlin Wall came down, the West German Army (Bundeswehr) came in possession of large amounts of AK47/74 and Millions of rounds of ammo from the NVA (East German Army) which was "honorably integrated" into the Bundeswehr.
I was at the time at the Infantry School in Hammelburg where the AK74 rifle/ammo was tested.
The interesting fact was, that the East German produced ammo did not have this flaw.

AustinTx
01-29-2013, 18:40
The trouble of Wikipedia is, that it is not always accurate.
After the Berlin Wall came down, the West German Army (Bundeswehr) came in possession of large amounts of AK47/74 and Millions of rounds of ammo from the NVA (East German Army) which was "honorably integrated" into the Bundeswehr.
I was at the time at the Infantry School in Hammelburg where the AK74 rifle/ammo was tested.
The interesting fact was, that the East German produced ammo did not have this flaw.

The trouble, with gun dealers is that they are not always accurate, from my personal experience.

Where is your proof that it is a flaw? You seem to be in East Germany. I said it was Russian ammo, not East German. IOW it's Soviet, or Russian. I don't claim anything about E Germany.

Have it anyway you like, I'm done.

MarcDW
01-30-2013, 06:26
... You seem to be in East Germany. ...
No and if you read my post you would know better.

The 5.45 "tumbling bullet" first came up when Russia in the 80's was in Afghanistan using the AK74.
Since it was impossible to get any 5.45 ammo or AK74's all you had where the results on victims.
Also the 5.45 "tumbling bullet" fell just in line with the "evil empire" and all the other war crimes Russia committed in Afghanistan including dropping these toy like looking bombs.
The UN and even more the media was all over this and people like you still go by what the media in those days published.

One problem with "tumbling bullets" is, that they are getting inaccurate after 80-90 yards, to the point that targets at 150 yards would be hard to hit.
One thing the Russian military did not want.

...I'm done.
That is obvious.

Tiro Fijo
01-30-2013, 10:24
...One problem with "tumbling bullets" is, that they are getting inaccurate after 80-90 yards, to the point that targets at 150 yards would be hard to hit.
One thing the Russian military did not want.


That is obvious.


The bullets tumbled AFTER hitting a dense medium such as flesh, Einstein. :wavey:

You just lost all credibility. :upeyes:

MarcDW
01-30-2013, 10:33
No, the bullet gets in flight unstable and starts tumbling.
Also as I said before, this was not with every bullet since the Russians had better and worse lots.
Other then you brilliant people, I tested this already 25 years ago.