Gen 4 question on recoil assembly [Archive] - Glock Talk

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tercel89
01-16-2013, 04:44
Will a regular (gen 3 ) recoil spring assembly work in a Gen 4 G19 , 17,22,23 ?

Angel King
01-16-2013, 05:03
No, the hole in the front of a gen4 slide is too large and a gen3 RSA will pass through it.

tercel89
01-16-2013, 05:14
No, the hole in the front of a gen4 slide is too large and a gen3 RSA will pass through it.

Ok thanks

cciman
01-16-2013, 10:06
Yes you can. You will need a washer adapter for the front of the slide. These can be found on ebay or elsewhere. Yes and it does change ejection behavior.

Will a regular (gen 3 ) recoil spring assembly work in a Gen 4 G19 , 17,22,23 ?

voyager4520
01-16-2013, 11:06
Here's one such adapter washer that will allow you to use a Gen3 recoil assembly in a Gen4:
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=155988&CAT=737

Many manufacturers make their own such adapter washers.

I found this idea rather interesting though, an aftermarket guide rod with a single recoil spring made to fit a Gen4:
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=820780&CAT=737

Angel King
01-16-2013, 14:56
I wasn't aware of this. I would however think twice about doing this. The newer, post July 2011 RSA's work fine as intended.

It seams to me these aftermarket adaptations were a result of companies jumping on the gen4 RSA issue bandwagon and trying to make a quick buck before Glock fixed the issue.

Today, I don't see the need.

cciman
01-16-2013, 17:10
The NEED is if you intend to "tune" your RSA's with different spring weights, or if you are experiencing BTF issues, or if you want to shoot 115 gr. like the Gen3's do.

AND/OR go to a single solid metal rod system (titanium, tungsten, stainless)

Aftermarket springs are much better quality springs than the flat Glock springs, and they are cheap once you have invested in the rod.

There is no advantage of the Gen4 TRIPLE spring RSA over a traditional single spring/rod setup-- single rod and spring makes it simpler, less prone to fail.

There are a few posts where the double system has binded or locked up.

Angel King
01-16-2013, 17:17
Thanks for the explanation.

sgt rock
01-16-2013, 18:02
The NEED is if you intend to "tune" your RSA's with different spring weights, or if you are experiencing BTF issues, or if you want to shoot 115 gr. like the Gen3's do.

AND/OR go to a single solid metal rod system (titanium, tungsten, stainless)

Aftermarket springs are much better quality springs than the flat Glock springs, and they are cheap once you have invested in the rod.

There is no advantage of the Gen4 double spring RSA over a traditional single spring/rod setup-- single rod and spring makes it simpler, less prone to fail.

There are a few posts where the double system has binded or locked up.

No advantage at all ? not one ? can you provide some data to back that up ?

nraman
01-16-2013, 19:14
My Gen 4 G22 has a softer recoil than my Gen 3 did. I consider it an advantage.

cciman
01-16-2013, 19:25
NO, can you provide data the other direction, other than anecdotes of perceived recoil reduction, and cool factor. A single spring recoil assembly works just as well as the double, there are no advantages that I can conceive in a handgun, just downsides as mentioned in the post.

"Perceived" recoil is not eligible. Don't get me wrong- I do own gen 4 guns, as well as G26, G30, and G29, I know what the recoil feels like compared to my single spring guns-- but I don't perceive the TRIPLE recoil spring giving any advantage...more points for disadvantage than advantage.

No advantage at all ? not one ? can you provide some data to back that up ?

AustinTx
01-16-2013, 20:13
Yes and it does change ejection behavior.

That is very interesting. I would not have thought, there would be any difference assuming the springs are the same strength.

Angel King
01-16-2013, 20:38
CCI, the reduced recoil is not perceived. At least in my two examples. It's noticeable.

cciman
01-16-2013, 20:44
The Gen4 Glock 19 spring is not the same "strength" as the Gen3 Glock 19 single spring. Because it is also a TRIPLE spring assembly (3 springs), the physics are slightly different also - as discovered by the initial problems with the G4 Glock 19.

It is quite the complex spring assembly. but sometimes simple is better :whistling:.

Again with a washer adapter, and a aftermarket rod, one has the ability to vary the spring characteristics IF one were having ejection issues.

That is very interesting. I would not have thought, there would be any difference assuming the springs are the same strength.

cciman
01-16-2013, 20:50
Sorry, I don't notice a recoil difference between my Gen4 and my Gen3 (stock springs) guns. How are you sure its not the grip feel affecting your perception?

CCI, the reduced recoil is not perceived. At least in my two examples. It's noticeable.

ram1000
01-16-2013, 20:57
I'm guessing that Glock is using the dual spring assembly because it allows a wider range of effect whereas it is the best of both worlds: on the one hand it can handle heavier loads than a single spring while at the same time being able to handle softer loads since two springs don't have to be the same rate. Like I said just a guess but seems credible in terms of physics.
BTY I am using an adapted SS rod and single spring assembly from the Glockstore. So far no negative effects but I have only ran a box of FMJ through the gun. I went this route because I intend to use 45 Super in the gun occasionally, and also replaced the barrel with a LW threaded barrel.

Angel King
01-16-2013, 21:06
Sorry, I don't notice a recoil difference between my Gen4 and my Gen3 (stock springs) guns. How are you sure its not the grip feel affecting your perception?

That's why I played it safe by saying my examples of the Gen3 and 4 G22. Maybe not all. And not speaking of the 9mm. Just .40

As far as how I know, you'll just have to take my word for it. Been shooting the gen3 for ten years or so and shot the gen4 today back to back.

It's physics, a very simplified view is, the harder that slide slams back, the more felt recoil. Just pull back both slides and see which one requires more force. Both being new springs.

But, the other side of the coin is, the heavier spring needs a more stout grip to function and can make an ammo sensitive gun.

nraman
01-17-2013, 10:22
NO, can you provide data the other direction, other than anecdotes of perceived recoil reduction, and cool factor. A single spring recoil assembly works just as well as the double, there are no advantages that I can conceive in a handgun, just downsides as mentioned in the post.

I assume that you can provide data that a single spring works just as well as a double.

I have no doubt that it made a difference in the G22. Many forum members reported the same.
It is not anecdotal when you loose the snappiness inherent in the G22 Gen 3.

cciman
01-17-2013, 11:02
It is counterintuitive: if you read most tutorials on recoil spring, stronger springs give MORE shooter perceived recoil. It is a common mistake that shooters to go to a 'heavier" spring when shooting heavier loads for the purpose of "reducing" recoil. You only go to a heavier spring to preserve the gun mechanicals-- on a Glock this is irrelevant, on a tuned 1911, that might make more sense.

Spring considerations do not occur in a vacuum- but must take into consideration the ammo load. The LIGHTER the spring the WIDER the ammo variation tolerance (ie less probability of ammo cycling failure). The lighter the spring, the farther the brass flies. (Makes it harder for handloaders to find - thus they may want to go to a heavier spring to tune where their ejected brass lands).

The heavier the spring, the more important the ammo load factors into the cycling (ie narrower ammo variation tolerance, the higher the probability of ammo cycling failure). The heavier the spring the shorter the ejection trajectory. Too strong and the brass just barely rolls out or hits you in the face--- worse case gun fails to cycle. This is evident in Glock's recent foray into the multi spring "improvement".

Here is a simple article: http://www.custom-glock.com/springtech.html You can google more if you want more.

The subject on recoil is quite complex. Psychology has as much to do with it as physics. We are conditioned to move our hands arms and shoulders even when the gun does not even go off-- this contributes to the recoil-- this is seen in simple FTF drills (load a dummy round somewhere in a magazine). We are conditioned by hollywood and ourselves. If you shoot 1000 rounds of .40SW in a weekend course- the recoil at the beginning of the weekend is very stout compared to the end of the weekend-- where you don't notice the gun going off.

Changing the grip texture or grip size makes a large difference in perceived recoil. This is where Glock should have stopped.

cciman
01-17-2013, 11:11
Back to the subject: Yes you can run a Gen 3 RSA in a Gen4, with an adapter device (machined washer).

If you are one of those with a chronic BTF or 115gr failure to cycle Gen4 problem, this is the first thing I would do. That's just my opinion.

nraman
01-17-2013, 11:56
Spring considerations do not occur in a vacuum-

You keep talking about "the spring" even though the Gen 4 is not a spring, it is an assembly of about three springs IIRC.
Springs of three different lengths, diameter, wire size, each designed with a specific purpose.
I believe that one other benefit from the new RSA is a more positive breach lockup, it seems that the Gen 3 has less power at the end of the travel as the slide goes forward.

cciman
01-17-2013, 15:12
We are all talking with theoretical terms, and assuming that the RSA "strengths" are different, where in fact they may behave identically. ??Who knows??

To really tell if there is a difference between the Gen4 and Gen3 RSA, one needs to dyno the RSA. You need a spring dynometer, and graph the pressure vs. length. Need a mechanical engineer here to answer this one.
I am assuming the gunspring makers like Wolf have done this. Also, i would assume that the gun manufacturer does the proper R&D to pick the best RSA for the widest range of shooters and ammo.

Snapper2
01-17-2013, 19:04
I have a compact gen4 that I want to fine tune to shoot softer reloads in. I bought the adapter washer and a compact ISMI single spring.I fired a magazine full to function test it and had no problems. But after double checking the slides full movement I'm finding it doesn't go back to meet the frame on its rearward travel. The only thing I can figure from this is the spring is fully compressed and stacking. The frame is not absorbing the impact, the barrel's lug and bushing are. Shooting hot loads in the set up will wind up breaking something.:dunno: Maybe the lug?

Angel King
01-17-2013, 19:14
I think part of the problem is that the Glocks are just work tools. Meant to be used with full power duty or self defense ammo for military, cops or civilians who want to protect themselves. They normally work with other loads because they're that good. But let's not forget their intended purpose in life. I can see why low power loads can give people trouble.

cciman
01-17-2013, 20:41
Does the bushing sit flush on the inside of the slide, mine does. Not sure I am understanding your description. Normally where the Glock frame impacts the slide on recoil is that plastic semi-lunar area in front of the forward frame rails at the rear of the dust cover, hits the slide ledge that holds the front of the spring. Trying to do this by hand with my stock Gen4 9mm, it is almost impossible to make the metal contact the plastic (I'm not strong enough).

I have a compact gen4 that I want to fine tune to shoot softer reloads in. I bought the adapter washer and a compact ISMI single spring.I fired a magazine full to function test it and had no problems. But after double checking the slides full movement I'm finding it doesn't go back to meet the frame on its rearward travel. The only thing I can figure from this is the spring is fully compressed and stacking. The frame is not absorbing the impact, the barrel's lug and bushing are. Shooting hot loads in the set up will wind up breaking something.:dunno: Maybe the lug?

Snapper2
01-17-2013, 20:50
Not sure I am understanding your description. Normally where the Glock frame impacts the slide on recoil is that plastic semi-lunar area in front of the locking block just rear of the dust cover, hits the slide ledge that holds the front of the spring. Trying to do this by hand with my stock Gen4 9mm, it is almost impossible to make the metal contact the plastic (I'm not strong enough).
First I took the recoil spring out then installed the slide back on the frame with just the barrel in it. Pulled the slide all the way back till it stops on the frame. Then marked the frame with a pencil. I then did the same with factory RSA installed. It matched up with my witness mark. Not so with the adapter and gen3 ISMI spring installed. The slide stopped about 1/8" short.

Snapper2
01-17-2013, 20:59
Does the bushing sit flush on the inside of the slide, mine does.
No it sticks out about 1/16" or so. I "fixed" this by filing two sides on the adapter where it doesnt touch the frame on the sides. I've already cut 5 coils off the spring trying to make it fit. It does now but i'm not sure how strong it is. It still closes the slide doing a recoil function test.

cciman
01-17-2013, 21:42
Just for giggles, I put with my Gen3 RSA with bushing into the Gen4. You are correct, my bushing is not flush either-- BUT there is a flange on the head of the stock Gen4 RSA that is the same diam and thickness as the bushing when installed.

I compared the slide travel with both RSA's installed-- they are not different. The only difference from you, is I am using stock Glock spring in the Gen3 RSA.

Brass Stacker made my adapter and recoil rod. On observation, the rear flange of the Gen3 RSA is slightly smaller in diam than the Gen4. When seated fully in the Gen4 barrel recess, it is slightly angled. I am not sure if this is of any functional significance, since the RSA moves around during firing, and likely self centers under recoil. (The Glock will fire normally with just a spring, without a recoil rod).

Snapper2
01-17-2013, 21:59
Just for giggles, I put with my Gen3 RSA with bushing into the Gen4. You are correct, my bushing is not flush either-- BUT there is a flange on the head of the stock Gen4 RSA that is the same diam and thickness as the bushing when installed.

I compared the slide travel with both RSA's installed-- they are not different. The only difference from you, is I am using stock Glock spring in the Gen3 RSA.
Ok thanks. I ordered a stock gen3 recoil spring so I'll just use it when it gets here. I've read somewhere that the compact ISMI springs were too long and just wanted to measure for myself. It looked different to me than stock when installed. I was using a stock plastic guide rod that I pulled the end off.

cciman
01-17-2013, 22:09
http://s5.postimage.org/tp31mosib/DSC_0006.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/tp31mosib/)

http://s5.postimage.org/tmj5zuour/DSC_0002.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/tmj5zuour/)

http://s5.postimage.org/b5or918wj/DSC_0003.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/b5or918wj/) http://s5.postimage.org/53h4ijkgj/DSC_0004.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/53h4ijkgj/) Slide is NIB'ed by CCR Refinishing.

http://s5.postimage.org/y4lgry4wj/DSC_0005.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/y4lgry4wj/)

You can click on this for larger images: http://postimage.org/gallery/1m4d16bo/

cciman
01-17-2013, 22:20
Snapper,
Try a Wolf recoil spring-- they come in different powers, and are round springs.

You do need to use a different rod. http://brassstacker.com/recoil-guide-rods/
Wolf sells theirs too.

Snapper2
01-17-2013, 22:30
Nice finish. CCR does do a good job. The stock spring does look like a better fit. The spring I installed looks more like a slinky when installed. About two curves. I'm afraid to use a steel guide rod now. If a spring does stack there is no give. Its barrel lug against end slide with a rigid piece of steel in between. At least a plastic guide rod could bend a little. I cant afford that happening while shooting with a 357sig barrel in my g23.

Snapper2
01-17-2013, 22:32
Snapper,
Try a Wolf recoil spring-- they come in different powers, and are round springs.

You do need to use a different rod. http://brassstacker.com/recoil-guide-rods/
Wolf sells theirs too.
I might give Wolf a try.:cool: Thanks for the link.

cciman
01-17-2013, 22:47
http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=5#109

caveat: These are NON-captured springs for noncaptured rods.

AustinTx
01-18-2013, 22:00
cciman,
Thanks for the fine pic.

AustinTx
01-18-2013, 22:11
You keep talking about "the spring" even though the Gen 4 is not a spring, it is an assembly of about three springs IIRC.
Springs of three different lengths, diameter, wire size, each designed with a specific purpose.
I believe that one other benefit from the new RSA is a more positive breach lockup, it seems that the Gen 3 has less power at the end of the travel as the slide goes forward.

That may be true, but GEN3, Glock 9mm pistols could eject the cases properly and I haven't seen any trouble with "positive breech lockup". If a GEN3, has lockup problems, use a 20# spring.

If recoil is a problem, with a 9mm pistol, a person should drop back to a caliber that they are comfortable with.

nraman
01-19-2013, 11:46
If recoil is a problem, with a 9mm pistol, a person should drop back to a caliber that they are comfortable with.


Recoil can be fun at the range but it is a negative in a defense gun where speed in follow up shots may be critical. If a spring changes the way recoil feels it is an advantage.
At least for some people. The Rambo, SEAL, Merc types are of course another story.

cciman
01-20-2013, 10:32
Update:
I called Wolf and Brasstacker today:

Wolf springs are intended to be used with a noncaptive rod (like a Sig or a 1911- the rod and spring are not one piece-- rod is there just to install the spring). You can do this with an OE rod with the head cap off or buy one of their rods. Good for easy changes, and loaders. Harder to take in and out. Probably not the way to go with a Gen4 slide.

Brasstacker recommends using a flat ISMI spring (or Glock flat) with their captive rods. They do not have extensive experience using the Wolf on their rods. They have never had to cut their ISMI spring to fit.Snapper,
Try a Wolf recoil spring-- they come in different powers, and are round springs.

You do need to use a different rod. http://brassstacker.com/recoil-guide-rods/
Wolf sells theirs too.

AustinTx
01-20-2013, 19:27
Recoil can be fun at the range but it is a negative in a defense gun where speed in follow up shots may be critical. If a spring changes the way recoil feels it is an advantage.
At least for some people. The Rambo, SEAL, Merc types are of course another story.

The only time, you do feel recoil is at the range. It's always there, you just won't notice, too much other important stuff, like being shot at, maybe, going on.

Shoot a deer, with a rifle, you won't feel the recoil and probably won't hear the shot.

nraman
01-20-2013, 19:28
The only time, you do feel recoil is at the range. It's always there, you just won't notice, too much other important stuff, like being shot at, maybe, going on.

Shoot a deer, with a rifle, you won't feel the recoil and probably won't hear the shot.

Quite true but you still want fast recovery between shots.