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Phases
01-18-2013, 01:45
Update: Done! See this post (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19898810#post19898810).

Update 2: Screw it, got the G20 back (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20028607&postcount=103). So now 27, 30, 20. :P

=====Dang, no spoiler BBcode? Original post below=======

Ok, so I've posted an intro thread that will hopefully show up after moderator approval - which kinda gives a backdrop to this, but let me sum up.

I just bought a G20, my first Glock, and first handgun in two years. I went in with Home protection in mind - but had limited options and being how I'm the "I want it now and I want the baddest thing I can get" type guy - I bought the G20, THEN spent a couple days researching my concerns.

I know I know, fail on my part. I talked to the shop that sold it to me and they will help me sort through whatever I want to do so, anyway. Let me explain.

First let me say, I've read A LOT on here in the past few days. My brain is mush. I know there are really no general consensuses on either of the things I'm about to ask. Much is subjective, relative, all that good stuff.

So all I'm asking for are, well the same things I've seen a few theads on already, and read every post on - but would like to hopefully read some stuff geared toward me, even if it is the same.

I have kids, and a wife. I got this originally with home defense in mind. It would appear that, at least to some, the G20 is geared more for bears and boars than a couple guys coming in my back door. Do I mind overkill? Well no, I'm happy to be able to stop whatever I need to stop.

Am I concerned about this "over-penetration" debate? Well I was, quite a bit. Then I read a lot here, and the "missing is the bigger concern, and the bullet loses tons of strength for second hit" argument DID sooth things for me. I'd be lying if I said it still wasn't in the back of my mind, but I'm not extra concerned like I was when I first joined here this morning.

I joined with that issue in mind, but took a while to get approved, and much has happened since.

So, with that in mind, question #1 was, and I read on this too and I think have my answer but, what would everyone suggest a good round would be for this purpose? Obviously there is no holy grail or there wouldn't be options, with rounds or guns, but what do you all think? I would like a round that doesn't travel much after it would pass out the back of someone...typically/probably/likely. As in, barely make it to the wall if anything - yet still have enough power to drop someone when hit anywhere in the torso.

If no such thing exists, is there still a better option than what I got? Horandy 180gr XTP

(Rounds for this are pricey!)

That was my original concern. Well, then I got to thinking about CCW and you know, I think I decided I'm going to at least some times exercise that right once I get this permit in few weeks. I have an inside the belt holster coming.

But, it's HUGE. I went in today, he let me try his, and supposedly I'm getting a "better" one, at least one meant for the 20, and it felt alright. It was less obvious than when I just tried sticking it down my belt. But, unless this thing comes in and it's just miraculous, it's probably way to big for that, for me.

I don't want anyone to know. I would prefer my teen never finds out.

Anyone here carry a model that huge aruond my build.. 6", 190 or so lbs. regular build, bit of a gut. Is it absolutely impossible to not be obvious about it?

So, to this point, I've now started looking at the 27 and 30.

I also tried the G27 and G30 while I was there, in his CCW holster. The only other two options. And, they felt way better. Of course.

I've been researching G27 vs G30 all day. Crazily enough I'm now hoping I can get the support to just .. buy one and keep the G20 for camping trips or fun shooting, or... I may even one day try hunting. I've said I want to at least once. Plus, it would be great when I go out of town to leave her with something and take something a long.

Not sure that's going to happen though. So I'm faced with indecisiveness in the face of not even knowing what to research!

If I can purchase another, then I'd like opinions on G27 vs G30 for every day carry. I think, not sure, but I think the G27 is my choice since it is smaller, (big deal for me), and I can convert to 9mm, etc, and I wouldn't mind the round size since I have the G20 should I feel I need it.

But what of control and accuracy with that little guy? Many love the 30, but enough to have it bulge out more if I'm going for totally hidden?

If I can't purchase another, and she's only comfortable with one gun in the house (in the safe) well, I can respect that. But then I have a worse choice to make. Now I have to choose between the three and try to maximize my needs/wants.

- I'd like to carry, concealed. And be unnoticeable unless you're just looking for it. Not my style to have one of the outside the belt types. But realistically I just may never end up doing that. People we go out with or family or whatever may not be comfortable with it. But I'd like to.

- I'd like to stop whatever comes in the door. I'd like my wife to be able to stop whatever comes in the door. She is dainty. Not that it's hard to pull a trigger, it's ready to go in that safe.

- I'd like the range to be fun. I'd like to take down a polar bear if I ever head to the artic.

It feels like, just thinking about it, the 30 would be the best bet if I can only have one, what are the odds I'll run into a bear in my lifetime, but. anyway.

How do rounds cost for the 27/30 compared to the 20?

I know this is a bunch. And it's all.. well it's all just up to me really.. and I'm probably getting some eyeballs rolling at me but it's a big decision and I have a hard enough time buying ice cream. So, any and all input welcome. Also, I know me and I know me pretty well, I'm not patient enough to wait until I can fire them both to see how I feel about them. I will probably make a decision and buy then one day down the line trade out if I just hate what I got. Plus, if I hate it, the silver lining is the bottom line is home and personal defense and I'm fairly confident I don't care which one I get, it's going to do the job if I ever need it to.

p.s. I hated the Taurus cuz it took 8 billion pounds of pressure to pull the trigger.

Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks!

Edit: Ok, now we're settled - getting two. I think I will keep the 20 if we can find something she likes that I would carry for #2, otherwise, 20 might go back for a 30. Page four at this point..

Edit: Seriously considering 29 SF with conversion barrel if I want to shoot light, and G20 mags with grip extender if I want the 15 round option. Seems a good idea, but what's the drawbacks? http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19891793#post19891793

FNFAN
01-18-2013, 02:03
My thoughts would be:

The 27 is going to have a smaller grip than the 30. May be much more comfy for the wife if she's petite. If you're looking for a 1 gun solution. The .40 with a 9mm conversion barrel gives you some options.

Speaking of the 1 gun thing. Please explain to your wife, they're firearms, not velociraptors that will breed and chase you through the house if you have a pair.

I'm unsure what the reference to your teen "not knowing" is. If he's mentally stable and of normal intelligence he should be shown how to use a firearm.

It appears you've done some research and are agonizing over the choices and I wish you the best of luck!

Phases
01-18-2013, 02:06
Thanks :) Long story with the teen. He's recently moved in and I'm afraid his mother will flip out and demand he goes back to the other side of the country.

I very much agree with you..

As for wife. You know.. two year old running around. Even in safes.. I can understand her concern.

Goodrich
01-18-2013, 02:13
G30s imo

DWARREN123
01-18-2013, 02:15
I have carried a G20 SF before and had no problems with a IWB from Don Hume leather products and one from Galco.
It is hard to conceal for some but can be done.
The Hornady ammo is good stuff but the G20 shines with reloads especially for hunting/range.
Smaller handguns mean smaller grips and I can not handle a pistol any smaller than a good size compact (G19).
Left the 40S&W/10mm because of hand problems but still like it. :supergrin:
Any and all firearms should/must be secured from folks and children who should not be handling them.

wacopolumbo
01-18-2013, 03:38
From what you've shared with us and being that the 20, 27 and 30 are your only options, I would go with the 30. Great gun for the range, with a 9rnd flush fit mag, it's great for carry. Of your 3 choices, it is the most versatile for your needs. Plus, you can use 13 rnd Glock 21 mags in it.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

elijah58
01-18-2013, 03:45
I have the G20 and I carry it as my vehicle weapon and carry a G33 .357 sig for CCW. I use the Galco ankle holster, I love this holster over my other IWB holsters. So my weapon is completely concealed the entire time that I am carrying. Not sure if you know but the G27 .40, G26 9mm and G33 .357sig, are all the same size and very easy to conceal. I have no way of concealing a weapon of that size on my person without it being seen. By the way, I am exactly same build, 6' 190lbs. On one last thing that I can say about this is the 27, 26 And 33 are known as the "baby Glocks" but don't let that fool you. These are still very deadly weapons, whether being used for home defense or CCW. If it were me I would keep the 10 and then buy another one for CCW, my personal preference is the G33, mostly because of the ballistics of this round over the other two. As far as the children, keep it in the safe when not used and keep the safe locked. Our children need to know everything they can about a gun while they are still young, they need to have respect for weapons of any type, and that can only come through you. As they will learn to respect everything that you have respect for.
Hope this helps,

Eli

Louisville Glocker
01-18-2013, 04:56
You're really not going to go wrong with any of your choices. I have fairly big hands, and yet the G26 (sub compact, same as G27) feels great for me AND, importantly, is very accurate for me. The G30 is known for its accuracy. I carry that one OWB with untucked shirt. (my G26 is my choice for IWB).

If you're not needing to tuck your shirt in, it is very easy to keep any of your options concealed. A trained pro might notice, but nobody else.

A decent holster and decent belt will do the trick.

mhmills
01-18-2013, 06:14
The g29 in 10mm is the same size as the g30 and will accept the longer mags of the g20. Then you would only have to purchase one caliber.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

ithaca_deerslayer
01-18-2013, 06:35
First let's get the accuracy stuff out if the way. There is no accuracy difference between them that anything but a mechanical rest would ever be able to tell, and even then it is slight and any particular Glock might be more accurate than another Glock, without the model mattering much.

My guess is your wife will like a 26 or a 19 the best. You will like a 26 or 27 for concealed carry better. Thus a 26 would be the one to fit both your needs. Then just use the 20 when you go polar bear hunting.

If she already shoots handguns well and you think recoil is no issue for her, then get the 27 instead of the 26, because I already know you want more power :)

Bruce M
01-18-2013, 06:49
For some/most of us the best way to get better with a handgun is to shoot it and/or take classes which involves... shooting it. Based on that 9mm has some slight advantage over the other calibers based on ammunition costs. Some here, more than a few, report shooting the Glock 26 better than the bigger 9mm Glocks.

RoyHinkley
01-18-2013, 06:55
Or get the 27 and a 9mm conversion barrel. That's what I'm doing for my wife, it will be her gun. I got the 29sf for myself.

wacopolumbo
01-18-2013, 07:59
How do rounds cost for the 27/30 compared to the 20?-

Both 40 and 45ACP will be cheaper than the 10MM, so you're good to go there.

BMiracletx
01-18-2013, 08:42
Well, if you want one gun, to not overpenetrate, and for your dainty wife to shoot... then a G20 in 10mm is NOT it. I would even say that a 27 or 30 is NOT it.

My wife is small... she is 5'1" and weighs about 105. She does not have the wrist strength that I do. She can not shoot any of my Glocks without getting stovepipes due to limpwristing. If you had to get a Glock for your wife to also be able to shoot, then I would say a 17. It is larger, less recoil, lighter recoil spring than anything you have mentioned which means she can cycle the slide. My wife does not have the hand grip or wrist strength to cycle the slide manually on my 19. A 17 she can get by with, but her short fingers have a hard time with the long Glock trigger pull.

But... what does she keep in her bedside drawer? A Beretta 92fs with an 18-shot MecGar Optimum magazine for 18+1 capacity. She can shoot the CRAP out of that pistol, even with the larger gripdiameter. She thumbs the hammer back for first shot, or uses 2 fingers for the double action pull. Plus the Beretta is loss tolerant to limpwristing. It plain WORKS for her. As much as I love Glocks, they dont work for my DAINTY wife. I have had several friends looking for home protection guns for their wives. After hearing my story, having ntheir wives shoot the different guns, both of their wives picked the 92fs.

Just my thoughts... Sorry GLock Guys... before you flame me, remember, a gun that doesnt work for the intended purpose is useless. She is comfotable and shoots that gun well and she feels safe with it.

Phases
01-18-2013, 09:26
Hey guys, thanks for all the great replies. I should have been more clear I think about the wife. She will probably never fire whatever I get but maybe once or twice at the range so she'll actually know what it feels like. Then, never again unless she needs to. Which will hopefully be never, surely not more than once.

If more than once, I bet the once would convince her to get her own. ;)

...so a 'good gun belt.' Is this just, a really thick belt that can hold the weight and tension of you pulling out the gun, or is there more to it? I have a couple super serious belts but they're certainly not marketed as gun belts.

As mentioned, I go back and forth a lot, but I think at the moment I've decided if I keep the 10, I'll get a 27. If I can't, I'll go 30.

But that could change by the time I'm done reading any replies on my intro thread. ;)

SDGlock23
01-18-2013, 09:40
The 10mm isn't geared for bears and such, it's a service cartridge, not a big bore revolver. It will have a slight edge over the .40 or .45, but nothing drastic. Over penetration is a concern with just about any cartridge, not just the 10mm. All Glocks will easily punch hole through somebody and keep on going, depending on ammo. If you're looking to limit the likelihood, get a lighter weight bullet like a 135gr or 155gr, and your best option there is Underwoods ammo. Even with the 135gr, I've heard from people who have shot deer with it in both the .40 and 10mm and the bullet almost completely penetrate the deer.

The G27 is going to conceal the easiest since it's the smallest. I also feel the .40 is more efficient from a shorter barrel than the .45 is. You can drop in a factory G33 barrel and shoot 357 Sig in it, or a conversion barrel (aftermarket) and shoot 9mm from it.

You can also buy a .40 S&W and/or a 357 Sig barrel (aftermarket) for your G20 10mm, they drop in and use your existing G20 magazines and lets you shoot the G20 for less, the 10mm isn't exactly popular or abundant.

The .40 and .45 both have a much broader range of ammo options than the 10mm for sure. If you don't already have a .45, I'd suggest a G27 .40, that way if you do get a .40 barrel for your G20, you can share ammo.

cajun_chooter
01-18-2013, 09:45
I prefer the G19.. (may be the reason I own 3 of them)
as far as home safety... you have to be the judge of who
knows about your pistol.. better be safe than sorry. .. i grew up with guns in my dad's house... he taught us from a VERY early age about guns... i knew well to NEVER handle a weapon without my dad supervising..
good luck on your decisions..

wacopolumbo
01-18-2013, 09:50
But... what does she keep in her bedside drawer? A Beretta 92fs with an 18-shot MecGar Optimum magazine for 18+1 capacity. She can shoot the CRAP out of that pistol, even with the larger gripdiameter. She thumbs the hammer back for first shot, or uses 2 fingers for the double action pull. Plus the Beretta is loss tolerant to limpwristing. It plain WORKS for her. As much as I love Glocks, they dont work for my DAINTY wife. I have had several friends looking for home protection guns for their wives. After hearing my story, having ntheir wives shoot the different guns, both of their wives picked the 92fs.

My wife is a Beretta fan too. She has a 92FS for the bedside and a 92FS Compact for the purse. She also has a PX4 compact and a Nano but keeps going back to the 92s. It's interesting to know she's not the only one.

Beretta makes a fine weapon. I've got a 92G and 92G Compact Type M. I love 'em, but they rarely see the light of day.

sugarcreek
01-18-2013, 09:55
I have a 30SF and a 26. Both carried IWB. The 26 is a bit smaller, and lighter, both carrying 10 rounds. Either are concealable. Weight loaded and a smaller gun are considerations.

I hope you can shoot both, and see which one you like. Good luck.

Phases
01-18-2013, 10:09
Just a few various halfway decent looking ranges in my area, and looked at inventory online when I could. None have the 27 OR 30 for rent. I'm a little surprised.

HKLovingIT
01-18-2013, 10:25
I would personally go 9mm with a G26 or G19 in Generation 3, if staying in the Glock family. There are also other good choices like the S&W M&P Compact in 9mm, etc.

The G20 is pretty big for CCW for most people in a lot of situations. YMMV.

A lot depends on your body, the holster, the belt, your comfort level with carrying it, how you dress, where you go, where you work, what you do, etc. A lot of people have more than one firearm because not every firearm is the best solution for every situation. The G20 might work out fine for you hiking through the woods, but might be too big for your daily commute or trip to the grocery. I can't answer that, only suggest.

In terms of shooting it, I don't know what your personal experience with firearms is or your comfort level, but if you are considering that your wife may need to use it, it might be too much gun.

Also, I would just point out, and not to be a jerk, but just to point out, that if the plan is to try to convince her to shoot it one or two times and then only for her to use it in an emergency, that's not a good plan at all.

If you're coming up with a plan for personal protection for your family and home, the whole family needs to be part of the plan. That means adequate safety measures where the little kids are concerned. (safe, lock, etc.) Training for you, the wife and your teen if your teen is responsible. Plus having a firearm that your wife could truly handle in an emergency is a good thing to look at. [Also don't neglect layered protection like an alarm system, exterior lighting, an alarm dog, etc.]

Maybe she will be just fine with the 10 mm. But I'm guessing if you get her out to the range and put some full house 10mm loads in that and have her shoot it, that will be the last time she goes shooting with you for a long while. Also, as many guys here will tell you, if the wife or GF is just completely not interested, you have an uphill battle to start with.

If she is "afraid" of firearms, as many people who are not familiar with them or have no background might be, then a professionally run training class on basic handgun safety and shooting that you take together would be a very good start.

I suggest to you this book before you spend any more money on hardware:

Amazon.com: Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry (9781440232671): Massad Ayoob: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Gqfoh9sEL.@@AMEPARAM@@51Gqfoh9sEL



I would keep the G20 [I wouldn't mind having one] but I would look into a G26 or G19 for everyday use. Also consider a .22 like the Ruger SR22 or a steel .22 revolver is a good starter gun for a wife or kid with no shooting experience or little inclination. There is no recoil, it's fun and practice is cheap. In a pinch a .22 beats the heck out of a cell phone and hope. Later on, if she has the inclination you can step up to something bigger for her.

I personally like the G26 for carry and the G17 for home.

I wouldn't get too caught up in caliber at this point other than examining what is affordable, available, reliable and that your family members can operate effectively. Later on when you are experienced pistoleros you can examine the finer points of the effectiveness of .357 Sig versus .40 versus 10mm, etc.

Also consider, can you shoot this firearm in this caliber one handed, with your non-dominant hand? An emergency scenario might mean you are not able to have a perfect stance and two handed grip, etc. You might have a phone or kid in one hand or be fending off someone. Just more food for thought.

BMiracletx
01-18-2013, 10:52
My wife is a Beretta fan too. She has a 92FS for the bedside and a 92FS Compact for the purse. She also has a PX4 compact and a Nano but keeps going back to the 92s. It's interesting to know she's not the only one.

Beretta makes a fine weapon. I've got a 92G and 92G Compact Type M. I love 'em, but they rarely see the light of day.

Haha... good to know there are more similar stories!

Phases
01-18-2013, 12:02
So after making my case, letting her thing on it, then talking today - she's only comfortable with one in the house right now. Makes me sad, but I get it and it's her house to, so I'm not going to push it further (right now :P).

SO. the debate now is to keep the 20, or swap for the 27 or 30. She'll only fire any once or twice a year, at my request, just so she is familiar. No matter the gun I'm sure if she needed it, she could get the rounds out regardless of what I pick.

It just comes down to what I should get for me, at this point, I think. I really really want to keep the 20. But it has so much going against it. Hard to CCW, and expensive at the range. I can't figure out if I just want the bad boy because it's a bad boy, or if it's because I want a full size, not a sub compact. 15 +1 rounds? 10mm? Come on, who doesn't want that if they can only have 1?

But the others would conceal so much better.

The worst of it, I'm at the mercy of what he has in stock. At the moment its the 27 and 30. Tomorrow it may be no glocks at all. I know, what's the rush, order what you want, all that stuff - but this guys been good to me, helped me a lot and is willing to work with me to make me happy, so I'd like to give him the sale.

Looks like I have a lot of internal back and forth to do, not sure I can get much more outside help. Still, I'm here to get input so if you want to give it, go for it.

The good news is, no matter what I settle on, it's going to be great and I'm going to be able to protect my family with something other than a sword or kitchen knife should Mr. Crazy come busting in our door, too - which was and is my #1 priority. And she'll be perfectly able to pull that trigger regardless of size, while aiming at whoever she needs. Put that 2 year old on the line, she'll do it fine. I wouldn't if the entire clip went into someone that threatened him if she wasn't certain baddy was down for good.

Thanks all for the replies, good community you have here.

Edit:I had assumed for some reason these were all Gen 4s, but they're not. They are all Gen 3s. Don't really care that much but, bummer. I guess the only bit that I'd be concerned about is the " the new GLOCK dual recoil spring assembly substantially increases the life of the system." part.

I don't for see myself shooting all that much though. I'm sure a 3 will still last me till I'm done with it.

BMiracletx
01-18-2013, 14:29
If stuck to choose bwtween a 20, 30, or 27... I would take the 30.

Seriously?
01-18-2013, 16:30
You need three.

Two 9mms and the 10mm.

Get the 26 for carry......the 19 for wife, home and sometimes carry......and the 20 for Bear.

The 26 can use mags from the 19 if needed. That's handy.

Wear some good Cabela's pants (and shorts for summr) and you can carry the 26 in a front pocket with a cheap pocket holster. Perfectly comfortable and undetectable.

The ammo for the 9mms will be cheap and you can practice a lot and the skill will carry over to your bear gun.

Good luck.

Pilotdude3407
01-18-2013, 17:16
Not much has been said about this so I am going to say it.

Regardless of what gun you have, if your wife wants to use it then she better shoot a lot more than "once or twice a year". From how you have described your wife, yourself, and your set up...here is what I am in visioning...

Bad guy comes in the house...now your wife will have to go get the gun out of the safe (wherever that is), throw a magazine in it (since being safety conscious, I wouldn't think you would leave it any other way), chamber a round (really don't see you having one chambered already), pointing and shooting at said bad guy...all while being hopped up on fear and adrenaline. On top of this, the last time she touched the gun was upwards of 6 months to a year prior. In my book, that is scary. I don't foresee her getting to even chambering a round much less getting one off....muuuccchhh less hitting said bad guy.

You seem like you are willing to do research. If you are serious about this, then what you need to do is get your wife involved...get her over the fear of guns by taking her and having her professionally trained and then having her shoot. Here is a tidbit for you. I barely want to muster up proficiency shooting with my 27. After 100+ rounds, it really wears on your hand. Your wife will hate it and then not want to shoot it. A 9mm is an excellent round and will drop most anyone coming through your door. I would get a 19 or a 26 and get her used to it. I would then get a bedside safe with finger cut outs so you can retrieve your pistol in the dark. You should already have a round chambered so when you pull it out, it is ready to go. You can't have someone wondering if there is a round in the chamber...remembering to rock the slide, yada yada yada. If bad guy comes in and you aren't there, it should be roll over, get the gun, go to side of the bed farthest from the door, sit on the floor with the bed between you and the door, point the gun at the door while calling 911 and laying out anyone who enters...period. It should be that easy.

I highly encourage you to look into REAL home defense strategies and not throwing the gun in a safe in some closet on the top shelf with magizine away from it. If you want home defense, then prepare for it, train for it, and execute it. If you start compromising with her on the basis of safety, and not getting her trained, prepared and un afraid of guns, then in reality if there was an intruder in your home, all of you don't stand a good chance. As harsh as this post sounds, I am not bashing on you or your wife, but trying to explain how the real world works. Guns are neat and everyone loves their own opinions and they sound good on paper, but really look at this from a tactical and logistical standpoint. Good luck to you. Sounds like you are on the right track...you just need to tweak it some. Good luck.

Phases
01-18-2013, 17:24
I'm familiar with the real world, trust me :) That's why we're doing this to begin with.

We have it in a floor safe, in the walk-in bedroom closet that has its own lockable door. It will be loaded, chambered. It's a three number spin combo. right left right. It's kept spun and hit the first number, spun past the second once, and waiting to hit it again.

Plan, should she need it, run in closet, move dial left a little to #2, right to #3. Open, grab, pull off IWB holster, fire/wait/whatever.

We've gone over it, we both like it and feel good about it. We have #1 code in a easy to see place with some movement of items in case we mess up and in panic don't remember. I think we'll put all three in another easyish place to find just in case.

She doesn't want to shoot at all, other than if she ever needs to. The fire once or twice a year thing is me wanting to help with her confidence of "remembering" what it feels like, that she needs to hold it tight, etc.

I hear you thought, and do appreciate the post. Didn't sound harsh, just blunt. I'm good with blunt.

9mmpara
01-18-2013, 17:27
I say go for a G19 too I have 3 and they are the best for ccw holds 16rds and 9mm is cheap to buy.

Phases
01-18-2013, 17:33
Well, this guy has been good to me, I'd like to get one of the items he has in stock, as he can't really get anything else right now, and I'd like to give him business. 27, 30SF, 20SF. I have a few days to decide.

Fear Night
01-18-2013, 18:26
I vote for the Glock 30. It is my favorite Glock and an absolute tack driver.

9mmpara
01-18-2013, 18:45
I say go for the G30 also then if that is what he has in stock.I have a G30 and really like it.I carry it often ccw.

Pilotdude3407
01-18-2013, 18:51
As previously stated...I'm a 27 guy. I would take that gun to war.

HKLovingIT
01-18-2013, 22:29
Well, this guy has been good to me, I'd like to get one of the items he has in stock, as he can't really get anything else right now, and I'd like to give him business. 27, 30SF, 20SF. I have a few days to decide.

If there are truly no other purchase locations or options in your area I would lean towards the G30. But, that's just an opinion. I think of the choices you list its shooting characteristics would be the most tolerable for all the users you have that might need to use it.

No one doubts your instincts or your wife's instincts to protect the family. I think we're just suggesting tweaking the plan and incorporate the wife into it more if you can convince her. I know that can be a tough hill to climb but I really believe if you guys could swing taking a basic handgun class together that would be a great thing.

I still say seek out a 9mm even if you have to go elsewhere to find it, but you do what you gotta do and what you think will work best for you guys.

There is no question a 10 mm is effective as far as handguns go but is it the most practical selection given the totality of your home defense parameters and the various personnel in the home that may be called upon to employ it with the level of training or shooting experience they have or are willing to acquire at this time? That's the big question to kick around for you to think on.

Like other guys have said you have to plan for your worst case. Say it's 2:00 am, you're away on business, two guys kick in the door, your wife is roused from sleep and is trying to secure the kids, dial 911, and engage two guys with a full size 10 mm one handed that she's fired once or twice in the last year. I don't know about that. Bad guys don't stand still and sometimes they shoot back. Sometimes they are inside quiet before you know it. Sometimes they attempt to lure you outside. (Never go outside to investigate that strange noise in the dead of night.)

Gotta layer and plan. Sufficient outside lighting, solid doors and locks, windows and patio doors secured, alarm system with panic button, kids instructed what to do, etc. Security is about layers. The last and least desirable one being you crouched in a bedroom with a gun in hand and some meth head outside your bedroom door.

If your other layers defeat them before they get in or make you an unappealing target so the situation never even occurs to start with, you win. The gun is the last line when everything else has gone wrong.

Check out that book I listed earlier. The author runs the go ask the expert self defense forum on here. His other books are well worth a read also. You can also post your question regarding your firearms options in that forum and get his take. Never hurts to have some expert advice.

Wishing you and yours the best,

HK

AustinTx
01-18-2013, 23:22
I'm familiar with the real world, trust me :) That's why we're doing this to begin with.

She doesn't want to shoot at all, other than if she ever needs to. The fire once or twice a year thing is me wanting to help with her confidence of "remembering" what it feels like, that she needs to hold it tight, etc.



Maybe, you shouldn't buy a pistol, with a plastic frame. Steel framed guns aren't as prone to limp wristing. She HAS to learn to shoot, or you shouldn't even give her the safe combination.

gommer
01-19-2013, 00:24
Ok....

Home protection and carry and two different worlds in my OPINION.

So, to your question 1 - on ammo:

Bonded. BONDED. You'd think you were hiring a contractor, but no - bonded is the only thing you can really look for.

Why is bonded important? Bonded, and this isn't perfect, bonds the copper jacket to the lead core. What this does is forces expansion, in theory.

Mass produced products aren't perfect, right? We all know that. But, the copper jacket on a hollow point bullet serves to pull the lead core apart in all directions when it's BONDED. In terms of physics, this means the bullets energy is released faster. This would also mean the bullet would have less penetration.

REALITY: If you miss, the bullet will pierce drywall several times but likely stop or became far less lethal after penetrating a stud. Tile means little, I've seen this in person a few times.


My Dad always told me; Don't point a gun at something that wouldn't be ok to destroy. Because that's what guns do, they destroy.

More important than the bullet or gun you are using is PLANNING. Think about your home, how someone would break in - don't leave any entrace out! I once thought my business was locked solid. The crooks brought a sledge hammer and busted through the brick wall. No joke.

I felt like an idiot.

When someone is in your home - where will you position yourself. What will you do? These are important things to think about - FAR more important than your choice of firearm alone.

It's taboo in society today, but it is LIFE in very rural areas. It's important, and it's shouldn't be taboo. Talk to your wife about it, talk to your kids about it. Burglers, rapists, and murderers are real. Make a plan.

Where do your kids go. What does your wife do. What happens if you lose? What do they do then... Do you have a dog? Alarm? I'm not saying obsess about it - but make it a priority. You only have to plan once. Rehearse a few times over a month and then make it a bi-annual thing.

I live in a split floor plane. My wife and I are on one side of the home on the main level with 4 entrances and our children are on the other end of the house on the second level with 2 potential entrances (though extremely unlikely).

They have a plan of where to go. I have a plan of what I do. My wife has a safe place to go and a hard-line phone and a throw-away phone in the same 'safe' room. Keep an eye on slickdeals.net for non-contract phones. You can pick these up for $20 or so and never buy a SIM for them. All newer cells can dial 911 whether they are active or not. It's good in case the physical lines to the home are cut.

If I 'lose', my wife and kids are all safe - I won't lose quietly so they are alerted and have safe rooms to go to.

Safe rooms should take a normal person with a crow bar 15 minutes or more to get into. This can be as simple as a steel framed door with a dead bolt and reinforced interior walls. I know it's not going to stop a bomb - but for the majority of thugs that'd be a dead end. You can't be prepared for everything - and that's where I've set my limits. You can do more or less.

I've found people tend to do things based on life experiences. My life experiences have led me to this place. I know there are people close to me here who think I am half-nuts for doing these things. My wife sometimes questions it, even. She knows WHY I do these things, but until you experience evil - it's hard to understand. And I understand and respect that.




That long babble aside... to the rest. For a concealed carry - G27 is a great gun. Arguably one of the best handguns you can conceal. I personally lean more towards the G26. I know some say just get the 27 and swap barrels and mags - but I'm a proponent of KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid. I like 9mm and I like more rounds. The baby glocks are more accurate than you would think. That's PERSONAL, obviously. Some folks just can't shoot glocks. I came from 1911's and my migration into striker fire pistols was painful and full of blame. Everyone's fault that I couldn't hit jack but my own - and you'll see a lot of that on the internet.

That's another thing I saw in your question...

DO NOT... I repeat, do NOT go LOOKING for problems that are not there. Form your own opinion and gain your own experience first. IF you have a problem, THEN research solutions. Guns, cars, toys, diets, whatever -- if you LOOK at any product you WILL find problems. Whether they are real or not, well --- who knows. But if you look hard enough people have a strange way of making problems real when they aren't.


In the end, the best gun to have is the gun YOU believe is the best to have. Because when it comes down to the moment you need it - how you perform with that gun will have very little to do with conscious and intentional thought. You will be reacting, and your body will do what your body does. Some people are incredibly stable, others not. I would STRONGLY advise seeking local classes on defense. Most give some level of understanding on how you will react in a crisis situation.

Me, I tend to become extremely calm. Which isn't always a good thing. It really depends on the situation. I don't know why I react that way, I often wish I could change it. Shortly after I shake uncontrollably. (as the adrenaline drops)

Learn your limits, plan around them.

There's that planning again!

I'm no expert, either. This is the internet, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. If you're like most people, though - you have your own ideas of what is right and you're looking for justification of those ideas.

unit1069
01-19-2013, 00:42
I feel your pain, but don't panic. The G-20 is a powerful caliber but the platform you chose will accept .357sig, .40S&W, and 9X25 Dillon callibers. Instead of rushing out to buy another pistol stop and think about your choices that the wife has input with.

The G-20 had a lot of good options so look closely at them before jumping into something else.

Phases
01-19-2013, 00:49
Hey guys, thanks again :)

She's shot with me before, but only once. This was ten years ago but my point is she's at least not terrified of it, and she's said not against it this go around. I'm sure she'll take the safety course with me if I said I wanted her to. When I signed up I asked if she wanted to and she said she didn't know, then later just kinda said nah. If I stress safety, I'm sure she'll be game.

I really really want to keep this 20 but, I do want to be pretty hidden in CCW and I do want to run minimal risk of getting a gun I don't like, control wise. I figure 30 is a good compromise.

Either way I can sell if I need and re-buy, consider it a research-fail on my part if I need to, and pay the couple hundred in losses. As I've mentioned, I'm not trying any before I buy. None of our ranges that I've called yet have had any of the three. Shocking, I thought they'd at least have the 30. Plus, I only have until early next week to decide before this one is mine with no full price swap option, and I'm jammed packed till then.

Naturally I agree with the layers concept, and we're pretty good about it. Lots of outside lighting, locked doors, creaky floors :P. No alarm system though, and at this point she is not okay with more than one in the house. I don't get it, 1 in the safe is no less dangerous than 2 in the safe, but it's her house too and I'm thankful enough she agreed to the one - she's been against it for a couple years now.

We've thought real good about the layout of the house, what is most likely, etc etc. The bedrooms side of our ranch house is on a slope, no one is coming in those windows. Our neighborhood is a good neighborhood, sorta tight layout, most people with front lights on, including us. Our front door is thick. We figure anyone trying to get in will go around back. The only options on the non elevated side of the house are the back door/window in the den (end of house), and the big ass sliding door in middle.

We don't suspect breaking the sliding glass would be the plan, so we figure the den is the very much most likely point of entry. So, no matter where in our rectangle one floor house we are, we would head right for the bedroom. Should the glass door be the choice, we're either already in the bedroom, or can go either direction. Bedroom, or to den, out door and to a neighbors.

I really think minus a security system and more than one gun - we're doing real well with our plan.

:)

My biggest question now is which to settle with.

It stinks because I'm super indecisive in nature, and each time I watch a few vids on the 27, or the 30, or the 20, or CCW in general, or with any of those sizes, I end up convinced I know what to get - then it changes a bit later.

I appreciate it guys, I'm sure you get this a lot and are frustrated with us inexperienced guys who rush into something and don't test fire first and all that, so thanks for keeping me company while I go through it.

- I love the size of the 20, the feel in my hand. It feels great, and hold many rounds. I think it would be good for me, and fun on the range. I'm 50/50 on CCW with it. I think I want to make CCW a part of my lifestyle. I wish I knew how much I cared about the cost of ammo to shoot, I don't think much, but I do know it's pricey in comparison.

- I love the size of the 27 for CCW. I love that I can get an extender for grip if needed, swap barrels, all that stuff. Not sure I'd do either. I wonder when shooting if it will be TOO small for me to like control. But who knows, people seem to love it on youtube.

-The 30, can't argue. Seems a fair compromise of both. I feel like that's where this is headed. The thought, though, is that in practice the biggest and maybe only real use will come from me. And I really like the 20, it's awesome. Yet I want to be comfortable CCW,and it just seems the 27 is best for that.

:\

We're waiting for the holster for the 20 to come in to see how it feels and how I like it, then Ill have the choice to return for full price, (if he'll let me do so with the big safety sticker ripped off the box). But the invitation won't extend past that and I can't shoot it first. Nor find a place or the time to shoot it or anything in the meantime.

This is what happens when someone jumps into a buy. Worst case, I end up with something I find out I don't like to shoot and/or carry, sell it used, buy new, lose a couple hundred dollars. Hope it doesn't come to that but that's the price of being a dumbass and I'll pay it if I need to.

unit1069
01-19-2013, 01:05
I really really want to keep this 20 but, I do want to be pretty hidden in CCW and I do want to run minimal risk of getting a gun I don't like, control wise. I figure 30 is a good compromise.

Where do you live? Describe your environmental surroundings and perhaps some GT members can provide some focused advice.

Phases
01-19-2013, 01:09
Nashville. Typical sub-urban neighborhood from circa 1970. Brick homes, some 30 feet apart, some 40, I guess.

The more I watch and read abuot CCW though, the more I realize .. most people aren't looking at you like that. They aren't thinking, let's look for a bulge or crease, then let's wonder what all it could be. Which really helps.

Fear Night
01-19-2013, 07:44
-The 30, can't argue. Seems a fair compromise of both. I feel like that's where this is headed. The thought, though, is that in practice the biggest and maybe only real use will come from me. And I really like the 20, it's awesome. Yet I want to be comfortable CCW,and it just seems the 27 is best for that.
You are trying to force fit a gun to be the perfect option for both CCW and HD. The best solution is to buy one gun for each purpose. I do agree the G30 is a good compromise for both, but it may make more sense to keep the G20 for HD and get a single stack 9mm for CCW.

If that is not an option, then go with the gun that you can shoot better. I think you will be hard pressed to find somebody that can quickly group better with the G20 or G27 over the G30. The 30 is such a sweet shooter, with very predictable recoil, no "snap".

SDGlock23
01-19-2013, 08:28
If you're looking at one Glock to cover HD and CCW, the best all around do-everything size is the G23. Big enough for good capacity (13+1) but small enough of effectively CCW with ease. Ammo is widely available too. I have heard the .40 is more available than 9mm or .45 right now since everybody is stocking up like mad.

However, I noticed you said that you want to stick with this particular guy so your options aren't that broad, it's either the G27 or G30. Between those two, and I've had both, it's a tough call. The G30 is bigger than the G27 for sure, it's wider (thicker) and heavier. On the plus side, it holds 10+1 and the recoil is EASY. The G30 will recoil less than the G27.

The G27 wins in terms of concealability. It's smaller, lighter, thinner and still holds 9+1 rds of .40. In terms of power, don't get too caught up about one being vastly superior to the other, 10mm included. The 10mm is nice, but ammo is expensive and hard to come by (it's not exactly popular), whereas the .40 and .45 are popular and you have a much broader selection of ammo and bullet styles for them. All three will get the job done in the power dept.

Chances are the G30 will cost a little more than the G27, the .45's and 10mm's are larger framed than .40 cal Glocks. Take into consideration price of ammo and the availability of it. The 10mm loses there. The .40 and .45 win in that category, slight edge to the .40.

G30: bigger and heavier than G27, holds 1 extra cartridge, more expensive (gun and ammo for it), and it will shoot very easy (.45 recoil is as easy as it gets, second only to the 9mm). Very effective.

G27: designed as a CCW pistol, lighter and thinner than the G30 and you only lose 1rd capacity. Less expensive (gun and ammo) but will recoil a little more than G30. Also very effective.

Both are very accurate too, and that's from personal experience. This rings true with others who have owned them.

If you haven't already, go to youtube and look up Hickok45. He often says two of his favorite Glocks are the G23 and G27. He has a number of videos for each, and probably a few for the G30 too.

Phases
01-19-2013, 09:37
If you haven't already, go to youtube and look up Hickok45. He often says two of his favorite Glocks are the G23 and G27. He has a number of videos for each, and probably a few for the G30 too.

Oh yea, I've been all over youtube, and have watched several of his. He has a few for the 20 too..

Macbooklover91
01-19-2013, 10:36
I am a relatively new shooter. I plan to CCW here pretty soon and I got a gen4 Glock 19 for these reasons (maybe this can help you decide for your wife, teenager and yourself)

-I needed something reliable that in the case I ever find myself in a bad place, bad weather and bad surroundings it better fire, and keep on firing.
-> okay so I'm getting a Glock (lol not my only choice but its a good one)

-I want something without an external safety. (My thought being if its not on my person in a holster it's not loaded and its locked up. And if its on my person I want to be able to draw, aim, fire.)
-> again looks like any Glock will work

-I want something I can affordably shoot but will still have enough punch for defense.
-> 9mm Glock. 17,19, or 26. The ammo is plentiful and not too hard on the wallet.

-I want something I can easily conceal (I'm 5' 10" ~175lbs)
-> okay the 17 is out. I'm thinking 19 or 26. Although the 19 maybe seems a little big?

-I want something I can go to the range with and actually shoot.
-> Glock 19 it is. It's more comfortable to hold and to fire. And with a good holster it's not too big.

For me the Glock 19 is the right size. Big enough for there to be less recoil (let's face it though. It's 9mm with a double spring. There's no recoil for most people) big enough to pack 15 rounds (as long as you aren't in CA or now NY) and still small enough to be able to conceal appendix or at 4 o clock for most people (don't small of back carry, please! I've heard stories of guys going down on the ice or when in a fight with a suspect that are paralyzed now. It's just not worth it.) again though concealment is all about the right holster. I ordered a bravo concealment DOS iwb holster that should be coming soon that works for me. You see what works for you. Take your time. Try other people's guns. I shot the ruger lc9 and didn't like it. I live in mn and I felt like with gloves on I didn't have a good hold on the gun. It disappeared in my hands. The LCP even more so. All of this talk from other people can help but it's nothing compared to getting a few boxes of ammo in different calibers, few cases of beer (for AFTER the range) and calling up some friends and getting in a range day. Try all their guns. See what you like, BRING YOU WIFE! See what she likes. Then talk about it afterwards. Maybe she wants one thing but you want the other. So check your budget and see if you can make it worth. For me as long as these laws don't screw anything up my glock 19 is something I plan on passing down the family. A well made (and maintained) gun will out last you.


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F106 Fan
01-19-2013, 11:05
I would be willing to bet that the first shot your wife takes out of that 10mm will be her last.

Big guns aren't fun to shoot and light, big guns are less so.

You mentioned overpentration and going through walls is a serious consideration if you miss the target. And, fact is, you will probably miss! Why should you be any different than the LEOs who get in a gun fight at 3' to 10' and run through a couple of magazines with no hits. It happens!

If you want your wife to shoot at all, I would recommend a HEAVY 9mm. Given that you are in the Glock frame of mind, a 17 or even a 34 would be my suggestion. Something that starts out with little recoil and as large a weapon as possible.

The 17 is suitable for CCW although a 19 would be better. It might even be possible that your wife would like the 19. I don't know, I haven't shot one.

In fact, the only Glock I have ever shot is my G21SF and, recoil wise, it's comparable to my 1911s.

All the folks who praise their higher caliber weapons and how smooth they shoot are experienced shooters. There's nothing fun about big bore for new shooters; the noise, the smoke, the recoil, the torque on their wrist. Everything is a negative! For a first time shooter, I would stick to 9mm and I would probably buy wimpy Federal ammo from Wally World. That ammo might not cycle well in a Glock - bummer...

Since I know that a newer Glock will have a problem with wimpy ammo, I would buy almost anything else. Then too, I would stay away from polymer guns because shooting heavy guns is more fun than shooting light guns. Maybe not as nice for CCW but better to shoot. The nicest 9mm I ever shot was a Browning High Power. But they have the dreaded external safety... So, I guess it would have to be a Sig. We have a few and they are heavy enough to be fun to shoot.

None of the above helps you and just muddies up the water. I was going to skip this thread but I decided to make the point that the 10mm is a huge mistake for a new shooter.

Richard

OhioGlock90
01-19-2013, 11:06
G30S


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Arc Angel
01-19-2013, 11:47
:upeyes: This is, probably, the most potentially lethal discombobulated gun thread I've ever read, anywhere, anytime, on the, 'Idiotnet'. (And, that's saying a lot!) :freak: Two pages of this stupidity; and nobody seems to think that anything is wrong! Everyone is, 'motoring along' turning out, presumably, helpful replies for someone who clearly doesn't have a clue; and is only ill-prepared to own and handle a gun.

Do an old gunman a favor, will ya, pal. Take that round out of the chamber. Then, lock that Glock back up where even your wife can't get at it. The NRA (with what little good use I have for them) offers an excellent beginner's, 'Home Self-Defense' course. I'd suggest that, both, you and your wife take it.

This reply is coming to you from someone who used a 22 LR semiautomatic to defend his home for more than 10 years. During all those years the one time I needed it, I was downstairs on crutches; and my pistol was upstairs with our two Pit Bulldogs. I'm very different from you. I'm a wizard with a gun, any gun! However, without the Pitbulls I very much doubt that I'd be writing this right now.

Penetration, over-penetration, and missing are what all the rank amateur gunmen talk and write about. I'm able to count on the fingers of one hand the gunmen I've known who: (1) Truly understood their homes and properties; (2) knew, beforehand, where the best places were to either defend, or not defend their homes; (3) understood and had already taken into consideration the most appropriate ANGLES-OF-FIRE AND BACKSTOPS around their homes; (4) didn't give a tinker's damn about caliber because they could put a bullet, or bullets, right where they wanted them: day, night, moving, standing still, and with or without the sights; and (5) these men knew how to operate their firearms by feel, alone, and without needing to look at them.

They knew when to move; and they knew when to stand still. They knew when to engage inside the home; and they understood when to engage outside the home, too. Do you know the most defensible areas inside your own home? Are you aware of the three best ambush spots around your property where you would have the greatest probability of placing your opponent at a distinct tactical disadvantage? Can you do any, or all, of these things? Do you even have the, ‘lethal engagement acumen’ to keep the gun away from your grossly incompetent wife, anchor her (and the kids) inside a, ‘safe room’; and give her a tac light instead of a gun?

If experience is any guide, I’ll just bet you don’t! Right now you’ve got the, ‘cart before the horse’. You’re goofing around with guns and ammunition that you don’t really have a clue how to effectively employ. Worse, the thought of you people running around the house with a C-1 Glock makes my blood run cold! I’m not going to suggest any particular gun or ammunition to you. Instead I’m going to recommend that you go onto the NRA’s website, open the Library tab, and pick out 3 or 4 good books on personal protection and home self-defense. After you’ve read the books, sign up for, at least, one live-fire combat pistol course. Ideally, you’ll want your wife to take this course with you.

Teach yourself how to, ‘lay out your home as if it were a minefield’. Make sure that both you and your wife know how to effectively barricade yourselves. In particular your wife should be able to use that tac light in order to illuminate any intruder(s), and get him to focus on, or try to hide from, her while remaining silhouetted and exposed to you. In spite of the often numerous ill-advised responses you’re going to get from the Internet, there is no good reason for that Glock to be charged and in C-1 prior to you actually needing to engage.

I see, ‘cowboys’ and novice pistoleros like you on public gun ranges all of the time. The way guns and ammo are selling, right now, I expect to see a lot more, too. My final suggestion? You’re moving way too fast, my friend; I think you should, ‘ramp back’ and slow down. Guns are VERY UNFORGIVING; and it’s impossible to call a bullet back. ;)

janice6
01-19-2013, 12:39
You also asked about gun Belts.

since you are getting much advice about guns I will add this:

No. They are not just a heavy duty belt for weight support.

Gun belts are made with an internal stiffener of various materials. The reason for the stiffener is the same as the reason for the IWB holster spanning more of your waist diameter than the OWB holster. Weight distribution. Less localized stress/weight on your body.

The intent of the special holster and the Gun Belt, is to eliminate the "rolling" of the belt which lets your weapon tilt outward and causes printing. Without the tendency to "roll" you will not have to keep the belt very tight. The stiffener also distributes the weight of the gun and holster further around your body, adding comfort significantly when carrying a weapon, especially a heavy weapon.

If the belt has stiffeners, it will not stretch with age and wear. This means the belt will retain the vertical orientation on your waist with the weight of the gun.

I have one gun belt that is over 10 years old. I am now carrying a four inch barrel .357 revolver with it and I have no notice of the weight or tendency to print. (I also have a new gun belt that is for If and When the old one wears out.)

My concealing of the large revolver I wear, is strictly dependant on the belt holding the weapon snug against my side/ribs. This is improved by adjusting the cant (tipping the holster forward or backward to align the grip more vertically for comfort and conceal-ability.

A proper holster and gun belt means you do not have to have the belt extremely tight. Re-holstering can be accomplished one handed.

I wear the gun about an inch to one and one-half inch higher now due to the longer 4" barrel of the revolver. The belt stiffener permits me to do this without the gun tipping out away from my body.

When you carry, you have a few things that make it work. One is where around your body is the most accessible and comfortable for you.

The second is when you are sitting, what is the location and position of the muzzle. If the muzzle is long, and/or the gun is too low on your belt, you will have the muzzle stretching out your pants or jamming into your leg while sitting.

It can tear the pants or simply be very uncomfortable for you. I lost a few pairs of jeans tearing out the upper right rivet of the rear pocket, from the muzzle stressing/stretching the material because I carried the weapon too low on my belt.

To carry a longer muzzle, raise the holster up on your belt some more. When you have the height correct for your activity, tip or cant, the holster forward or rearward, to place the grip where it is against your body and not uncomfortable while sitting or standing. Also watch the butt/grip of the gun forward or rearward (position on the belt, not cant) so it does not print by pushing your shirt out away from your body. Holster position and gun belt prevent this.

I find that a forward cant wraps the grip of the gun around my hip, and it doesn't press against the bone. With the grip more vertical, I can carry a larger, longer grip, or I can carry a G27 with a 13 round magazine without printing.

When you figure out how to carry the weapon, you will find you can carry almost anything easily and concealed.

iLift45's
01-19-2013, 12:53
You made a great decision, but be warned. Once you buy one Glock it doesn't stop! I own a couple of 10mm's and it is a bad ass round! The FBI went with it originally but pussed out and went to the 40! I just bought a Gen 4 Model 21 and I love it! I like the big rounds and own quite a few 9mm's. I just have more piece of mind grabbing a bigger round like a 10 or 45 if my life depended on it. Check out the model 29. It's the compact version of the the model 20.

Congrats on your purchase! One thing about guns they seem to hold there value.

Phases
01-19-2013, 13:42
Thanks all for the replies. :) I will say, Arc, I'm going to disregard most of yours. I've given what background on me I want here and on my intro thread, but that's far from enough for you to suggest you know me, or my wife. I've spent time in Afgantistan and Iraq, and owned two handguns prior to this - and taken a couple courses in the private sector.

My wife has shot with me, and we're both taking another course in a few weeks. We've made a great plan, studied our property, and put a decent amount of appropriate measures in place. We have a plan.

The point of this thread is to decide: If I had to choose one pistol, either the 27 30 or 20, given all I want out of it., what might I do? This is a decision I'm capable of making on my own, but I have time and thought I'd introduce myself and open it up for input in the meantime.

For the record, my "grossly incompetent wife" and I have had it in a 100 pound safe since I bought it, and no round has yet entered the chamber. We take this very seriously. And it's coming at someone like that which prompts me to disregard replies like yours. We're not as perfect as you but we're doing a lot more than most the Wild West cowboys you're worried about.

Everyone else, thanks for the insight, especially the belt bit, Janice. You've convinced me to invest in one and not try out my thicker belts instead.

F106 - "..first time she shoots the 20 will be her last.." - bet your right. At a range anyway.. She'll pick it up if she must. But I agree. We'll see. I mean.. She's not as weak as I might have implied. But we're going to find out as she's going to fire it at the class - I've talked to the instructor about it. If she simply can't handle it or hates it, okay, we'll adjust. That's if I even still have it by then..

ithaca_deerslayer
01-19-2013, 14:28
Thanks all for the replies. :) I will say, Arc, I'm going to disregard most of yours. I've given what background on me I want here and on my intro thread, but that's far from enough for you to suggest you know me, or my wife. I've spent time in Afgantistan and Iraq, and owned two handguns prior to this - and taken a couple courses in the private sector.
I've often butted heads with him in threads too, but I wouldn't disregard him. He has a style of offending people, but at least it is a style :) But beyond all that, I think he does know a lot about tactics. Based on my getting certified to teach the course he suggests, I often find some nuggets of wisdom in his posts.

It might be worth getting your wife to take a basic pistol course, and then maybe later the home defense course. Look for the NRA women on target events. I teach a lot of newbie shooters at those, but my wife runs it (the event at our club). Women seem to like events where they can be around other women, especially when women instructors are running it :)


___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

Phases
01-19-2013, 14:34
Well, she's just not real interested. This is mostly my initiative with her support. But, hey, maybe after a few rounds she'll actually LIKE it and want to be more involved. :)

gioia3707
01-19-2013, 16:47
Based on your situation and statements I would assume that you have limited training using a firearm and the weapon will most likely be used against you if a threat is encountered (just my opinion). It does not matter if you have a 9mm, 10mm or 40S&W etc.

Train with what you carry and carry with what you train with....In short, pick an f'n glock that you like and take you meds. (G19/23 is the best multiple use glock for HD and CCW)

BTW: If funds are short the stupidest thing you could have done is buy a 10mm. Ammo is $$$

ithaca_deerslayer
01-19-2013, 17:48
Well, she's just not real interested. This is mostly my initiative with her support. But, hey, maybe after a few rounds she'll actually LIKE it and want to be more involved. :)

Get her around other women who are interested :)

___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

F106 Fan
01-19-2013, 17:52
The FBI went with it originally but pussed out and went to the 40!

They downgraded because their highly trained personnel as taught by their highly competent staff couldn't get hits. In LE, a miss is a really big deal. The bullet went somewhere!

And, if these highly trained folks can't shoot the 10mm with accuracy, why would someone with essentially no background think that they could do better?

Some agencies, having adopted to .40 S&W, actually allow their officers to downgrade to 9mm if that's what it takes to stay on target. First, you have to hit!

Now, I know all the long time shooters are rolling on the floor but that's the reality. The .40 S&W is a snappy round and isn't nearly as much fun to shoot as a 9mm. The new 9mm loads will still get the job done and the probability of putting a round on target is much higher.

There's a reason that, back in the old days, LEOs trained with .38 wadcutters even though they were loaded with .357 Magnum. Nobody enjoyed shooting the hot load and, since more training yields better hits, they trained with wadcutters.

I haven't shot PPC in a lot of years but, way back in the early '80s, we all shot wadcutters. I still reload and shoot them through my S&W Model 52. A .38 rimmed cartridge through a semi-auto:

http://gunadagio.blogspot.com/2011/01/wadcutters-delight-s-52.html

Richard

carguy2244
01-19-2013, 18:31
So after making my case, letting her thing on it, then talking today - she's only comfortable with one in the house right now. Makes me sad, but I get it and it's her house to, so I'm not going to push it further (right now :P).

SO. the debate now is to keep the 20, or swap for the 27 or 30. She'll only fire any once or twice a year, at my request, just so she is familiar. No matter the gun I'm sure if she needed it, she could get the rounds out regardless of what I pick.

It just comes down to what I should get for me, at this point, I think. I really really want to keep the 20. But it has so much going against it. Hard to CCW, and expensive at the range. I can't figure out if I just want the bad boy because it's a bad boy, or if it's because I want a full size, not a sub compact. 15 +1 rounds? 10mm? Come on, who doesn't want that if they can only have 1?

But the others would conceal so much better.

The worst of it, I'm at the mercy of what he has in stock. At the moment its the 27 and 30. Tomorrow it may be no glocks at all. I know, what's the rush, order what you want, all that stuff - but this guys been good to me, helped me a lot and is willing to work with me to make me happy, so I'd like to give him the sale.

Looks like I have a lot of internal back and forth to do, not sure I can get much more outside help. Still, I'm here to get input so if you want to give it, go for it.

The good news is, no matter what I settle on, it's going to be great and I'm going to be able to protect my family with something other than a sword or kitchen knife should Mr. Crazy come busting in our door, too - which was and is my #1 priority. And she'll be perfectly able to pull that trigger regardless of size, while aiming at whoever she needs. Put that 2 year old on the line, she'll do it fine. I wouldn't if the entire clip went into someone that threatened him if she wasn't certain baddy was down for good.

Thanks all for the replies, good community you have here.

Edit:I had assumed for some reason these were all Gen 4s, but they're not. They are all Gen 3s. Don't really care that much but, bummer. I guess the only bit that I'd be concerned about is the " the new GLOCK dual recoil spring assembly substantially increases the life of the system." part.

I don't for see myself shooting all that much though. I'm sure a 3 will still last me till I'm done with it.


I got 100,000 rounds through my Gen 2 21 and 45,000 plus through my Gen 3 19.
You should be okay.

glockfanbob
01-19-2013, 19:17
The only thing I want to say is I want to find a g20 for sale at a decent price.

Arc Angel
01-19-2013, 19:41
Thanks all for the replies. :) I will say, Arc, I'm going to disregard most of yours.

:upeyes: You shouldn't. I'm one of the few people on this board who has actually had to defend himself against as many as 3 armed opponents, either, inside his own home or outside on the property. (In the past 10 years - perhaps foolishly - I posted every incident, too; so this ain't no internet bull, man.)

For the record, my "grossly incompetent wife" and I have had it in a 100 pound safe since I bought it, and no round has yet entered the chamber. We take this very seriously. And it's coming at someone like that which prompts me to disregard replies like yours. We're not as perfect as you but we're doing a lot more than most the Wild West cowboys you're worried about.

You DID write the above remarks, correct?

I'm familiar with the real world, trust me :) That's why we're doing this to begin with.

We have it in a floor safe, in the walk-in bedroom closet that has its own lockable door. Loaded, chambered. It's a three number spin combo. right left right. It's kept spun and hit the first number, spun past the second once, and waiting to hit it again.

One of us is kidding the other; or, maybe, I need to take a course in remedial reading. (Not likely!) :supergrin:

Chonny
01-19-2013, 20:05
Man Id honestly get a 9mm, .40, and .45. Youre gonna want options.

Multiple 9mms and a .45 might be better.

Calhoun123
01-19-2013, 20:05
This has been an interesting thread - I'm not sure why I just read through the whole thing. I, like arch angel, feel it has been something of a train wreck. I'll second the notion that you shouldn't discount what arch angel says. He is one of the few people on GT that has demonstrated serious knowledge of the subject matter he comments on.

When discussing your options at your dealer, I don't recall if he only had the 3 glock models you mentioned or if he might also have had other brands available. I would suggest that this is a purchase that is too important to limit to 1 understocked dealer (however good he may be).

You want 1 gun for carry and home defense - fine, the best balance is in a midsize service weapon. A compact could fill the bill for both, though it would not be my choice.
If you want a gun your wife can shoot, essentially without training, with only yearly familiarization - - this limits you to a revolver IMHO.

If you can swing it, I would suggest you get a midsize revolver for your home defense weapon. S&W or Ruger will have what you need. Then, if you feel you have to have an auto for your personal use, get whatever you want. The G30 sounds like your best bet among your 3 options. I would suggest you also consider a G19/23 or a S&W M&P.

Ski2me
01-19-2013, 22:08
Here's one more opinion. I've had two G20s. With the first one I had a 10mm to 40 S&W conversion barrel. I shot 10 and 40 equally. Silly me, I thought I wanted an XDM so I sold it. After about five months I missed the G20 so much I bought another one. It's my favorite gun. I use it as my vehicle carry gun and also I carry it on my side when on my ranch or in the mountains. Although, I don't think I'd feel comfortable using it as a CCW. From reading your comment I don't think you can accomplish everything you want with one gun. By all means keep this gun but get a G36, a springfield XDS or if you want something your wife can more easily handle go with a S&W M&P Shield 9mm. (that's what I carry). It's only around 390.00 to 400.00 and a real sweet shooter. Put a pink Hogue grip sleeve on it and tell you wife she looks HOT with it ;)

Good shooting

BTW: If you're going to be shooting 10mm much it would be a good idea to invest on a reloader. You'll end up shooting multiple boxes of ammo every time you go out instead of a box or less.

Phases
01-19-2013, 22:12
Arg. I had a reply typed out with quotes for most of you then hit the back button and lost it. :\ I'll try again:

Arc: You got me on the inconsistency. That was (is) the plan to go forward with when we're done figuring all this out, which I had hoped to have done right after typing that. Yet it drags on. One has not yet been chambered - as I can get full price back for it if I don't. Well, if I don't fire it, but I'm not chambering one with this in limbo. So while you got me on that, it wasn't that statement that turned me off to you. It was the tone of the entirety of your post. You want me to have respect for your experience and what you have to say? Fine by me, that's what I came here for. But talk to me like that's your plan. I didn't come here to be insulted or talked down to like I'm a child, a stupid one at that, and have someone walk the line of insulting my wife.

Chonny: Heh, I wish I could just up and buy three. I'll be lucky to get out of this with one for carry/out of town, and one full time at home. But, I'm assuming the plan is still a single weapon. I think the 30 seems best for all around.

Calhoun: How come the revolver requires less training?

Calhoun123
01-20-2013, 08:38
The double action revolver is a simpler mechanism. You open the cylinder, place the bullets in, close the cylinder, and pull the trigger. I would teach not to use single action fire. Training time is spent on hitting the target rather than manipulating the weapon.

With an auto you have to deal with: loading mags; inserting/removing mags; racking slide; loading/unloading gun; and clearing jams. New users have to remember a more complex mechanism and you can't be proficient if you're not even interested enough to use it more than a few shots a year.

The revolver can left safely loaded with no loss of reliability - indefinitely (in a lock box). Open box, pull trigger is the crux of what she needs to know.

S&W offers 7 shot .357 revolvers. The one thing you want to make sure of is that the trigger pull is smooth and as light as possible (while being reliable). If she can't pull the trigger, then everything I've written is pointless. However, most women can pull the trigger on a good midsize S&W revolver. I think trigger pulls get worse on small frame models so I would stay away from them. Look at the model 686+ with round butt grips and a 3-4 inch barrel. Load it with .38+p for reduced recoil. Practice with .38 wadcutters - no recoil!!!

Arc Angel
01-20-2013, 09:13
Argh. I had a reply typed out with quotes for most of you then hit the back button and lost it. I'll try again:

Arc: You got me on the inconsistency. That was (is) the plan to go forward with when we're done figuring all this out, which I had hoped to have done right after typing that. Yet it drags on. One has not yet been chambered - as I can get full price back for it if I don't. Well, if I don't fire it, but I'm not chambering one with this in limbo.

So while you got me on that, it wasn't that statement that turned me off to you. It was the tone of the entirety of your post. You want me to have respect for your experience and what you have to say? Fine by me, that's what I came here for. But talk to me like that's your plan. I didn't come here to be insulted or talked down to like I'm a child, a stupid one at that, and have someone walk the line of insulting my wife. ……

Young man, we’re not talking about golf; it’s not tennis; it’s not basketball; and it’s not politically correct, pacifistic and godless socialism, either. Instead, we’re talking about: the use of pistols, self-defense, the protection of our families and homes, along with relevant and necessary contemplations of CQB pistol gunfighting. (Personal endeavors that my 60 years’ experience with firearms have taught me are NOT for everybody.)

Yes, I was gruff with you; but, let’s continue to be perfectly frank with each other: YOU NEEDED IT! Moreover, the people who read Glock Talk deserve better input and acumen than what I was reading; and, as someone else has already mentioned: The personal reasoning presented, early on, in this thread has the (intellectual) appearance of a, ‘train wreck’. (A, ‘train wreck’ with a gun!)

I, also, want to make something else very clear: I did NOT insult your wife. (I don’t even know the woman!) :dunno: Instead, I actually showed a certain regard for her by attempting to point out to you that (in my considered opinion) your wife is, in no way, properly prepared to defend herself with a handgun. ‘Why’ do I say this? Let me explain things to you by giving you a peek into my own, ‘little world’.

Five or six years ago, my wife came home from the office a good two hours late. As she came through the front door I looked over my shoulder and said, ‘What?’ Her reply? ‘The ghost of my recently departed mother just saved my life!’ I was busy, ‘computating’; so I turned back around to the computer and, kind ‘a, ignored the remark. (We’ve been married for a long, long time.) ;) Then, all of a sudden it hit me! ‘The ghost of your what did what!’, I replied. Two, ‘guys without green cards’ had accosted her in a post office parking lot and tried to jack our brand new Sonata.

They got nasty with her; she was a split second faster than they were; and she managed to lock the car doors before they could grab her. One of them put his face right up against the window glass and began to curse. Then, when they tried to simultaneously break both front windows in order to get at her, she started the car and ran over one guy’s foot as she drove away. The last she saw of these two, ‘hombres malos’, one man was lying on the ground holding his leg; and the other fellow was standing over him, waving his arms and making obscene gestures at our rapidly departing vehicle.

My wife is a (highly intelligent) exceedingly benign human being. She deliberately steps over insects on the sidewalk; and she has often helped me to save injured and abandoned animals who have wandered into our lives. (Over the past two decades she and I have spent thousands of dollars rescuing unfortunate dumb creatures who were thoroughly unable to help themselves! One cat with two broken legs cost us over $1,800.00. Believe me, I could ‘a had some very nice guns!)

Anyway, my very gentle wife says to me, ‘Give me one of your guns!’ (She has long held a carry permit; but, this was primarily for legal reasons as well as against the event that something untoward were to happen to me.) My reply? I said, ‘No.’ I told her that I would only arm her IF she completed the entire NRA Firearms Safety Course, AND passed live-fire exercises with the pistol of her choice. At the time I owned far more guns than any one man should ever need to possess. She went through the safe and, wouldn’t you know, nothing she picked up, ‘felt right’ to her! (As I’m sure we, both, know: You can’t argue with a woman who thinks something doesn’t feel right!)

So, she took to firearms safety and range training with a zeal that I found to be absolutely astonishing! Those two guys must have really scared her; and, oh, the power I felt being in absolute control of a wife who hung on, and obeyed my every single word! (I really miss those days.) :supergrin: I'm a Certified Firearms Instructor; and I was very strict with her! (Even more strict than I was gruff with you.) I made her thoroughly memorize and frequently perform, ‘Cooper’s Four Rules of Gun Safety’. The whole training process took about 4 months; and, when we were through I remember watching her shoot one afternoon while thinking to myself, ‘Well, so much for me ever having a girlfriend!’ ;)

The only thing she resisted me on was the final choice of a gun. I got smart and took her to see one of my closest friends: An older man with deferential manners and very conversational overtones. He is the one who helped my wife to pick out exactly the pistol I wanted her to have: A 357 Magnum, Ruger SP-101 with a 3 inch barrel (for the long shots), and a protruding hammer spur (for the same reason). We fitted it with a superior Hogue Monogrip; and my friend (a master gunsmith) did a real nice action job on the trigger for her. That’s NOT the smartest thing I did, though.

We all KNOW how tough it can be to effectively handle a short barreled 357 Magnum pistol - Right! Well, the entire time I was training her I didn’t say a word - Not a word! I started her out on, ‘target quality’ 357’s; and, then, I slowly introduced full-house loads into the gun. All I ever heard was, ‘Some of those last bullets you gave me seem to have more kick.’ ‘Really?’, I’d say. The end result? I’ve got a wife who can handle a combat pistol better than 75% of the men I know.

You thought that I was insulting your wife. In fact, I might very well have been saving her life! You know as well as I do that, from now on, you’re going to approach home self-defense differently - Aren’t you! (If you don’t, and I’ve wasted all this typing, well, …… all I can do is feel sorry for you.)

It’s often been my experience that people who don’t really know what they’re supposed to be doing tend to compensate for their perceived inadequacy by, ‘buying too much gun’. I’ve spent most of my life using and carrying 45 ACP pistols. (Once in awhile, a few 9 x 19mm’s too.) For the past two years I’ve been carrying an (occasionally temperamental) Glock Model 19. It ain’t a perfect Glock; if it were I’d, probably, fall in love with it; but, it IS all the caliber either I or my wife might ever need in order to effectively defend ourselves at relatively close range.

(I’ve got other guns for those occasions when I might need to, ‘reach out and touch someone’. Hopefully, America’s new socialist dictator with his, ‘executive orders’ and sycophantic congressional minions aren’t going to be able to use their underhanded, ‘madman ploy’ in order to take these weapons away from me - You, too!)

Well, that’s what’s going on at our house. Hopefully you’ll be better able now to form an improved home defense plan for your family. By the way, if I wanted to insult either you or your wife, please believe me: I’ve been on the Internet for a long time; I have had a lot of tête-à-tête interaction with a lot of: hostile, opinionated, and minor intellects.

These genuinely confrontational personalities have, all, taught me a lot about what my parents raised me to never be. I HAVE insulted several people on this board; but, (1) I never started it; and (2) I’ve never, ‘given it back’ to anyone who didn’t have it coming. That much I owe to my parents.

Frankly I think you need to distinguish between someone who’s being (justifiably) ‘hard on you’, and someone else who’s actually insulting you. I did NOT insult you. If anything, in no uncertain terms, I warned you instead. OK! I, also, think that you’ve still got, ‘the cart before the horse’. I hope you’re able to turn this around. Good luck! ;)

Here - http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=575

My wife's Ruger -

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4645/snewruger.jpg

Phases
01-20-2013, 09:51
Arc: I think you're giving yourself a little too much credit. You've not changed a thing for me with the exception of changing my joy of seeing a new reply on here and wondering what might be in store for me.

You didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, was doing or planning for.

You're one of those people who think your experience, online and off, makes you mister be-all-know-all and it gives you the right to be an ass. You don't know me. You don't know our experiences. You don't know how long I've "been on the internet", and you don't know our household.

Work on your approach. Then more people might take listen to what you want them to hear. And then, I agree, the world would probably be a safer place. I'm done with you man.

All else: A plan as far as the actual point of this thread - I think I'm going to try to keep the 20, get a .40 or .357 barrel drop in and train her on that, let it be the at home handgun. Then I can have the 10mm for the range or if I feel like I ever for some reason feel like I need it. I think, even thought it's a bigger gun, her control could be better with that than with a 27 or 30. I could be wrong but we'll never know until we hit the range. (Do you guys agree? the .357 or .40 out of that gun would be easier than a smaller one?)

Then, grab the 30 for myself for CCW. That would also then become the at home option if the 20 with .357/.40 was just to big - I might find the standard size is okay to carry. Doubt it but who knows.

If it's a problem, we'll adjust and find her the perfect fit.

It's a tough one, getting a way with 2, but I'm hoping she'll come around. I would like one to be home at all times with her.

Take our safety and ccw courses, and get some training in. She agrees that we will need to practice and train to be of any worth behind the trigger and not actually a danger to society.

Arc Angel
01-20-2013, 10:17
:wow: Now, THAT reply is really petty and mean-spirited of you. Trust me, I won't, ever, give you benefit-of-doubt again.

(Do you honestly believe that I don't know when I'm standing next to a, 'jerk with a gun' on the firing line?) ;)

Calhoun123
01-20-2013, 10:44
I don't think you have mentioned one important thing. How tall is your wife and are her hands proportionate to that hight? Ie, does her hand properly fit the 20???? My guess is that she would have to be about 5'7 or better to have a hand that fits a 20. I'm a 5'9" male with average hands and the 20 would not fit my hand properly (though I could use it effectively if needed).

Is the axis of the bore follow a straight line down her forearm bone? Or, does she have to hold it off center in order to reach the trigger? If it doesn't fit her, it doesn't fit her. Moreover, the 30 frame is the same width (just a shorter grip with the hump in a different place) and if the 20 doesn't fit, the 30 will not either. Oh, have you checked to see if she can rack the slide?

maestrogustav
01-20-2013, 11:02
Man, talk about spinning wheels stuck in the mud.

If you have kids in the house and you can't afford to buy a gun and a serious safe, then just buy the safe first.

NO ONE in their right mind today with kids in the house keeps a loaded firearm loose in the nightstand. Maybe 40 years ago but not today.

There is no hiding place good enough. Doesn't matter whether your daddy did it and you survived your childhood. You are legally and morally liable for the misuse of an unsecured firearm by someone who had access to your home-- like one of your kids' friends.

As for the choice of Glock, if they don't have what you want just wait til they do. They'll start showing up again. Unless you're living on the Sea of Tranquility.

Get a 19 and be done with it. I would sell the 20 if I were you, and take a small loss now, rather than pay double or more for ammo. You'll make up for your loss in 2 or 3 range trips. In fact, sell the 20 and buy a safe, and wait for a 19 or 17 or maybe a 22 to show up.

conversion barrels are fine if you plan to carry it with the original chambering-- it allows for cheaper practice. But the breech face on a 23 is not the same as that on a 19, and never will be. A good conversion barrel will always be ALMOST as good as the original, even if you replace ejector/extractor.

Phases
01-20-2013, 12:55
I don't think you have mentioned one important thing. How tall is your wife and are her hands proportionate to that hight? Ie, does her hand properly fit the 20???? My guess is that she would have to be about 5'7 or better to have a hand that fits a 20. I'm a 5'9" male with average hands and the 20 would not fit my hand properly (though I could use it effectively if needed).

Is the axis of the bore follow a straight line down her forearm bone? Or, does she have to hold it off center in order to reach the trigger? If it doesn't fit her, it doesn't fit her. Moreover, the 30 frame is the same width (just a shorter grip with the hump in a different place) and if the 20 doesn't fit, the 30 will not either. Oh, have you checked to see if she can rack the slide?

Damn good point. Now that I think about it, this seems like a very logical thing we should have talked about by now. She's 5'3". It isn't a perfect fit but I don't know if it's terrible either (see edit).

When straightening it so it lines up with her forarm, she says it doesn't feel right and she wouldn't use it that way.

Do you think it is unacceptable and dangerous, and/or would make it hard to fire say, ten rounds - or more just kinda uncomfortable?

See attached, let me know what you think. This is a natural hold.

Edit: looks to me like she'd break a thumb without a conversion barrel..
Edit: dang it, I should have got pics holding with both hands.

Man, talk about spinning wheels stuck in the mud.

If you have kids in the house and you can't afford to buy a gun and a serious safe, then just buy the safe first.

NO ONE in their right mind today with kids in the house keeps a loaded firearm loose in the nightstand. Maybe 40 years ago but not today.

There is no hiding place good enough. Doesn't matter whether your daddy did it and you survived your childhood. You are legally and morally liable for the misuse of an unsecured firearm by someone who had access to your home-- like one of your kids' friends.

As for the choice of Glock, if they don't have what you want just wait til they do. They'll start showing up again. Unless you're living on the Sea of Tranquility.

Get a 19 and be done with it. I would sell the 20 if I were you, and take a small loss now, rather than pay double or more for ammo. You'll make up for your loss in 2 or 3 range trips. In fact, sell the 20 and buy a safe, and wait for a 19 or 17 or maybe a 22 to show up.

conversion barrels are fine if you plan to carry it with the original chambering-- it allows for cheaper practice. But the breech face on a 23 is not the same as that on a 19, and never will be. A good conversion barrel will always be ALMOST as good as the original, even if you replace ejector/extractor.

Heya. I agree a million percent. We have a 100 pound safe that it is in. There will be no bedside without a bedside safe. :)

The conversion barrel is exciting to me, but as you can see - this may not work now, due to her small hands.

Calhoun123
01-20-2013, 13:18
Her grip is horrid - so many things wrong!

The internet doesn't allow for nuance, so I can only offer opinion based on limited info.

She seems to have long fingers for her height - - thats good if my observation is correct. It appears she could reach the trigger, with a proper grip. I THINK if she used a 2 handed grip that is "proper", she could probably shoot the 20 with mild loads. I doubt she could use it effectively with 1 hand (as if injured or using a phone to call 911).

Now, I'm gonna sorta take back something I said in an earlier post. The 20 and the 30 are the same frame size and by all objective measures if the 20 doesn't work, the 30 shouldn't either. Having said that, I have known people who have said they can't shoot a 20 or 21, but for some reason can shoot a 30.

If you are dead set on a glock - the best thing you could get would be a G19, even if it means waiting (best is to meet all/most of your desires).

Phases
01-20-2013, 13:32
Good news! She is good with two. So this changes everything. I could keep the 20, see how she does with 2 handed grip with the .40 conversion.. Then if she likes it grab a 30 to carry and train her on both. If not, grab the 27 for her or whatever (since I'm keeping the 20 in this scenario I can shop elsewhere) and train her on that and also use it myself.

Honestly it is not often that she is home alone anyway. Most the time were both there or both gone. But there are times and I periodically go out of town.

Or return it for a 30 for me, and get her whatever she wants. But boy do I love this 20.

.....or something else.. I've not really thought on this scenario yet.

FNFAN
01-20-2013, 14:38
I'm glad to see she's relented on the only one gun stance. I see the G19 as the answer to your question about what gun. It's what I suggested for my daughter who's petite also.

Good luck!

ithaca_deerslayer
01-20-2013, 14:52
Good news! She is good with two. So this changes everything. I could keep the 20, see how she does with 2 handed grip with the .40 conversion.. Then if she likes it grab a 30 to carry and train her on both. If not, grab the 27 for her or whatever (since I'm keeping the 20 in this scenario I can shop elsewhere) and train her on that and also use it myself.

Honestly it is not often that she is home alone anyway. Most the time were both there or both gone. But there are times and I periodically go out of town.

Or return it for a 30 for me, and get her whatever she wants. But boy do I love this 20.

.....or something else.. I've not really thought on this scenario yet.

Keep the 20 for you.

Try, try, try to get her in a basic pistol course or at a women on target event that offers handguns, then take her to a good gun store and let her pick out whatever 9mm or .38 she wants.

When we teach women, we let them try any handgun they want after they've learned the basics. When she goes into a gun store to shop, I want her to have a good idea of what she likes, based on what she's actually shot. Between me, my wife, and some other instructors, we might offer a woman the chance to try from over a dozen different carry guns.

Does a new women shooter, after learning on a couple of our .22's, seem to prefer a revolver or a semi-auto? Full grip or shorter grip as she thinks about method of carry, or mouse gun? Single stack or double stack? Single action, traditional double action, double action only, or partially cocked striker fire?

Lots of women seem not to like the guns their husbands picked out for them. If a women picks our her own gun, after getting to try a few, she is much more likely to take ownership over that gun, and become determined to be proficient with it.

___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

Phases
01-20-2013, 16:18
Any thoughts on 26 vs 27? I assume the 26 would be much easier to shoot for her, or 27 with 9mm barrel. Then the 40 would be an option. Aside from the round, they look to be pretty identical on glocks site.

SCmasterblaster
01-20-2013, 16:25
And stay with the excellent G20. :cool:

Phases
01-20-2013, 16:31
Any thoughts on 26 vs 27? I assume the 26 would be much easier to shoot for her, or 27 with 9mm barrel. Then the 40 would be an option. Aside from the round, they look to be pretty identical on glocks site.

And stay with the excellent G20. :cool:

Not sure if you were replying to my last post. Sorry I wasn't clear. :) I mean in addition to keeping the 20... a 27 for carry when we're out, and left with a 9mm conversion barrel for her when out of town.

She'd train almost exclusively on it with the 9mm barrel, and any time it is home, that's what it would have in it.

ithaca_deerslayer
01-20-2013, 17:24
Any thoughts on 26 vs 27? I assume the 26 would be much easier to shoot for her, or 27 with 9mm barrel. Then the 40 would be an option. Aside from the round, they look to be pretty identical on glocks site.

The 26 and 27 are the exact same size. A conversion barrel will cost extra, and then you have to get mags, too I believe

I favor just going with a 26. Lots of women like it. But they like the longer gripped 19, too. My wife does not like my 26. She can shoot it ok, but prefers her 637 snubby revolver.

The 15oz snubby is not an easy gun to shoot, but she picked it out and practised a lot with it, even using it in IDPA. The 26 is a much better gun, in my opinion, but the snubby is lighter and rounded and easier to conceal. Plus, it is hers :)

Nothing wrong with a 27, but even lots of GT guys think it is a bit snappy for their taste and they switch to the 26. It isn't so much that they can't handle the recoil, it is more that they are accurate and quicker back on target with the 9mm.

I prefer the flush mag on my 26, but most women I teach prefer the pinky extension.

But there is no telling what gun your wife will prefer, until she shoots some and goes shopping. Make this second gun her purchase. Let her pick it out, and let her call it her gun :)

___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

franco4027
01-20-2013, 17:30
I got a gen 4 27 used so that I could swap down to a 9mm. Once I got it home and shot it I decided to keep it in 40. It was dead on accurate and honestly I cant tell the difference in recoil from my gen2 19 in 9mm. I have had no issues with functioning on my Gen 4 gun like some people talk about, however, the grip style is the only difference I can see between the gen 3 and 4 in the sub compacts

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

AustinTx
01-20-2013, 19:07
Arc: I think you're giving yourself a little too much credit. You've not changed a thing for me with the exception of changing my joy of seeing a new reply on here and wondering what might be in store for me.

You didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, was doing or planning for.

You're one of those people who think your experience, online and off, makes you mister be-all-know-all and it gives you the right to be an ass. You don't know me. You don't know our experiences. You don't know how long I've "been on the internet", and you don't know our household.

Work on your approach. Then more people might take listen to what you want them to hear. And then, I agree, the world would probably be a safer place. I'm done with you man.

All else: A plan as far as the actual point of this thread - I think I'm going to try to keep the 20, get a .40 or .357 barrel drop in and train her on that, let it be the at home handgun. Then I can have the 10mm for the range or if I feel like I ever for some reason feel like I need it. I think, even thought it's a bigger gun, her control could be better with that than with a 27 or 30. I could be wrong but we'll never know until we hit the range. (Do you guys agree? the .357 or .40 out of that gun would be easier than a smaller one?)

Then, grab the 30 for myself for CCW. That would also then become the at home option if the 20 with .357/.40 was just to big - I might find the standard size is okay to carry. Doubt it but who knows.

If it's a problem, we'll adjust and find her the perfect fit.

It's a tough one, getting a way with 2, but I'm hoping she'll come around. I would like one to be home at all times with her.

Take our safety and ccw courses, and get some training in. She agrees that we will need to practice and train to be of any worth behind the trigger and not actually a danger to society.



You didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, was doing or planning for.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE MESSAGE, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You asked for advice, then throw a hissy fit, when you don't get exactly what you wanted. Whatever, that may turn out to be. At this point, I don't think you're going to know the good advice, from the bad.


Am I concerned about this "over-penetration" debate? Well I was, quite a bit. Then I read a lot here, and the "missing is the bigger concern, and the bullet loses tons of strength for second hit" argument DID sooth things for me. I'd be lying if I said it still wasn't in the back of my mind, but I'm not extra concerned like I was when I first joined here this morning.


So, with that in mind, question #1 was, and I read on this too and I think have my answer but, what would everyone suggest a good round would be for this purpose? Obviously there is no holy grail or there wouldn't be options, with rounds or guns, but what do you all think? I would like a round that doesn't travel much after it would pass out the back of someone...typically/probably/likely. As in, barely make it to the wall if anything - yet still have enough power to drop someone when hit anywhere in the torso.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks!
.

That is your #1 question, according to your OP and then at post #15, the wife is thrown into the mix (question #2 maybe?). Exactly, what is your question? This thread has gone pretty well, considering, the topics/questions that have come and gone.


I just bought a G20, my first Glock, and first handgun in two years. I went in with Home protection in mind - but had limited options and being how I'm the "I want it now and I want the baddest thing I can get" type guy - I bought the G20, THEN spent a couple days researching my concerns.

I have kids, and a wife. I got this originally with home defense in mind. It would appear that, at least to some, the G20 is geared more for bears and boars than a couple guys coming in my back door. Do I mind overkill? Well no, I'm happy to be able to stop whatever I need to stop.


Home defense doesn't mean, it's for the wife, too. You didn't say the wife was supposed to use the gun, also. You did, just say "I". If we assume the entire household, that would include any kids.

We're now at 4 pages and I'm not too sure what you want to know. Maybe, we could work on one question at a time. You have chosen to reject most of the meaningful advice, that's been offered, in rude way, more or less.

Personally, I think a lock, on this thread, would look nice.

Phases
01-20-2013, 20:00
Well, I'm not sure if you've read or skimmed the whole thread but it has been an evolving project, things have changed a little a long the way - due to both my circumstances and constraints and how they've altered, and things I've learned from this thread. A lot of good advice has come from it.

This thread has helped me a lot, but if you feel I've disregarded stuff and a lock is worthy, ok. I think it's gone great, and I've not rejected anything. I've added one user to my ignore list due to the tone they choose to take with me - but that doesn't mean anything beyond what it is.

Home defense does mean the wives are involved. Are we always at home? Is it a lot for me? Well no, but that's in consideration too.

As for "hissy fit" - well, not sure what you mean there. I guess you read things differently than I do.

Nonetheless - for those who are being helpful - you're helping a lot! Even got a couple helpful PMs. If you'd like to continue posting or PM me, rock on. If not, rock on.

It's really not that big a deal guys. Don't wanna be on the thread, don't have to.

:)

Phases
01-20-2013, 20:32
The 26 and 27 are the exact same size. A conversion barrel will cost extra, and then you have to get mags, too I believe

I favor just going with a 26. Lots of women like it. But they like the longer gripped 19, too. My wife does not like my 26. She can shoot it ok, but prefers her 637 snubby revolver.

The 15oz snubby is not an easy gun to shoot, but she picked it out and practised a lot with it, even using it in IDPA. The 26 is a much better gun, in my opinion, but the snubby is lighter and rounded and easier to conceal. Plus, it is hers :)

Nothing wrong with a 27, but even lots of GT guys think it is a bit snappy for their taste and they switch to the 26. It isn't so much that they can't handle the recoil, it is more that they are accurate and quicker back on target with the 9mm.

I prefer the flush mag on my 26, but most women I teach prefer the pinky extension.

But there is no telling what gun your wife will prefer, until she shoots some and goes shopping. Make this second gun her purchase. Let her pick it out, and let her call it her gun :)
___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?


Yeah. The benefit of the 27 would be the that she could use it at 9mm and I could use at .40. I don't mind the 120 or whatever bucks for the barrel. She's said she doesn't care for revolvers, and that the Walther P99 I had was "fine" as far as she can remember, but it was probably too big. That's really all I know at this point, or all she knows, as far as preference before touching anything goes.

I got a gen 4 27 used so that I could swap down to a 9mm. Once I got it home and shot it I decided to keep it in 40. It was dead on accurate and honestly I cant tell the difference in recoil from my gen2 19 in 9mm. I have had no issues with functioning on my Gen 4 gun like some people talk about, however, the grip style is the only difference I can see between the gen 3 and 4 in the sub compacts

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

No diff in recoil? That's the benefit of the 9mm barrel I would get with it. It LOOKS like a difference, watching demos on youtube.

p.s. "my wife vs desert eagle", Ran into that one too, heh.

Burnsy
01-20-2013, 23:46
I do agree you have gotten a lot of crap in this thread. "Listen to me because I am a guy on the intertubes and claim I have been through THIS HORRIBLE experience."

Irregardless, if the poster has or has not the presentation was very poorly executed and it was expected that you be shocked by it and therefore expected to be accepted on said grounds.

I propose two points for discussion:

I see that your wife has accepted the purchase of another firearm. If you think you would be happy with the 10mm (the only way to know is to use it), I would propose that you let her choose the second. All manner of ranges will let you rent guns at a negligible price. Rent them here and there when you can until she finds one SHE likes.

Do not make the mistake you made a second time. You bought a gun, if you don't like it sell it and replace, she is open to the purchase of a second, if one of them are going to be left for her to defend herself with, let her choose it. Only purchase after she decides what she wants. You made your choice, don't force her to do the same based on what you think is best for her.

Second. Stop putting your gun in a safe. If you wake up still mostly asleep and someone is breaking down your bedroom door, your may have seconds to unholster, attempt some sort of foggy aim and squeeze.

Adding getting up, getting past an attacker and trying to stop at the right number on a safe is quite a lot to ask having been awake on the order of seconds.

Not to mention you find yourself in another room, your door is being kicked in and your gun is in a safe.

Can you lift 100lbs? If the answer is yes your gun is not safe. Most gun safes are on the order of tens of hundreds of pounds and bolted to concrete with lag bolts.

The safest place for your gun is on your person. This keeps it safe from people finding it while you are not home, safe from your concern about your children ( this needs to be fixed ) and makes it available to you at all times. When you are asleep it should be on your nightstand and your bedroom door securely locked with something other than a simple door handle door lock.

Using a gun for self defense is not a compromise. It's an all or nothing decision. Stuffing it in a safe in a closet with a dial combination is all but the same as not owning one.

I meant no offense by this post, and I understand how it is to be new to the mind set and process all this new information you are reading.

Phases
01-21-2013, 00:00
Hey thanks for the reply. I have so many options my brain is about to bleed. I'm actually checking out the G29 as we speak. This really is a hard decision!

I only insist that one of the two come from the same dealer. Maybe he can order me something, or we can look outside the Glock line to see if there is soemthing she likes. I'm pretty set on one for me. I'm torn between.. well dang, most of them. They really are mostly all great choices. Heh. I'm pretty torn between the 20 and 29. I'd love the 10mm with conversion options. Love it. I'd love 15 rounds. I'd also love a little smaller pistol.

It SEEMs like the 29 SF with conversion barrel if I want to shoot lighter, and a grip extender with a couple 20 mags, I'd have all the options I want available.

Does anyone know if it's MUCH harder to control from the shorter barrel? Would that really be my only drawback?

As for her.. yeah, she's definitely going to be a big part of choosing her pistol. I want her to be as happy as possible with it, this would increase her desire to practice practice practice, and I'm good with that! I don't know if she'll just want to go hold some or fire some too.

I don't think either of us are comfortable right now with it anywhere but either a) on a person or b) locked up. A 2 year old and a teen in the house who's addicted to Call of Duty - you know.. baby steps.

;)

We have indeed, though, talked about the fact that chances are, IF someone were to break in during the night, we'd be in bed. This poses quite the problem. I don't know, maybe I can find a way to convince myself to put it by the bed when I sleep but yeah, baby steps. No rush. As of a few days ago I'd be 100% always relying on my fists or what I can grab, at least now there's some chance I've got a firearm available too.

Plus, we want to take a few courses before going all out. We don't want to be dangerous - our plan is to protect.

Burnsy
01-21-2013, 00:28
As for her.. yeah, she's definitely going to be a big part of choosing her pistol.


She should not be a big part, she should be the ONLY decision maker. If it's for her, it's for her. If it's meant for her to use to save her life, you have no say in it. This is a very personal decision.


I don't think either of us are comfortable right now with it anywhere but either a) on a person or b) locked up. A 2 year old and a teen in the house who's addicted to Call of Duty - you know.. baby steps.


Your missing my point. Your gun should be in one of two places. On you or beside you in your bed behind a locked door. Neither option leaves it available to anyone you don't trust, this includes your children.

Safes are nothing but an obstacle for you to over come to prevent your wife's rape or either of your deaths. (Or your rape, I don't judge)

Collections belong in safes, life savers have no place in them.

Phases
01-21-2013, 00:37
I agree she should be the only decision maker - if she'll do it. Remember, she's still 'coming around' and willing to learn. But she's not super excited and itching to go pick out her perfect gun, either. She's kinda of the opinion - get her something that fits her hand, let her practice with it - and if she needs it, by god she'll use it.

;)

But I hear ya, I do.

Bedside safe, when she'll come around to it.

I gotta give it time though. 3 weeks ago she wasn't okay with a gun at all. Two days ago she was only okay with one. But the more she reads (this thread, she read it all) and understands things the more she's coming around.

Burnsy
01-21-2013, 00:51
I gotta give it time though. 3 weeks ago she wasn't okay with a gun at all. Two days ago she was only okay with one. But the more she reads (this thread, she read it all) and understands things the more she's coming around.


Dear Phases wife :wavey:,

Thank you for not being close minded about your husband becoming interested about protecting his family from death or great bodily harm.

He means no ill intent, he is in my opinion rightly concerned about the safety of you and your children. He has read some and has much more to read. He is new to self defense but so many are and that is not a bad thing.

Please don't get angry at him in his learning process. Unpteen thousand people have been through it and at least give him credit for choosing a Glock. They are absurdly reliable at going bang when your life depends on it and not one has jumped out of a holster and shot up a room on it's own.

Burnsy
01-21-2013, 00:52
How did I do?

Phases
01-21-2013, 00:57
LOL thanks!

maestrogustav
01-21-2013, 01:03
Quick access safe.

If you are considering having a loaded gun on a nightstand in a room with a toddler. . . . . . Jesus Christ, man, wake the hell up.

Are you all nuts??????? There are safes that you can open in the dark with the touch of your fingers, in a code you set. they are hardly more expensive than two trips to the range.

Kids mean restricted access to your gun. Yes it may cost you 20 seconds when you hear the bump in the night. That is the price you pay. With practice you can cut it to 10 seconds. There is almost nothing to gain by having the gun on the nightstand. How the hell could you sleep knowing you had a loaded glock on the table, with a toddler a few feet away?

Jeez.

Burnsy
01-21-2013, 01:11
Quick access safe.

If you are considering having a loaded gun on a nightstand in a room with a toddler. . . . . . Jesus Christ, man, wake the hell up.

Are you all nuts??????? There are safes that you can open in the dark with the touch of your fingers, in a code you set. they are hardly more expensive than two trips to the range.

Kids mean restricted access to your gun. Yes it may cost you 20 seconds when you hear the bump in the night. That is the price you pay. With practice you can cut it to 10 seconds. There is almost nothing to gain by having the gun on the nightstand. How the hell could you sleep knowing you had a loaded glock on the table, with a toddler a few feet away?

Jeez.

I fail to understand why a toddler is sleeping in the same room with you while you sleep. Babies in cribs need immediate attention, toddlers do not. A verified working sleep monitor is required to alert you to a problem your child may be having and them in your room gains no advantage.

A baby in a crib poses no threat of AD or ND due to sufficient height of crib walls and access is impossible with a night stand that they cannot reach due to no climbing material around it and arm reach considered. That said, they have no business in your room while your gun is off your person. Toddlers need their own space to sleep in or separation issues become a problem.

Your life is not dependent on procreation.

ARE YOU NUTS!!!! Jeez. /sarcasm

Phases
01-21-2013, 01:12
I'm actively against the users telling me it needs to be on my nightstand. I've been insistent on a safe. I said MAYBE I could find reason to keep the pistol in a drawer and the mag between our mattress and headboard or between mattresses or something, while we all slept. Something reasonable, hell even I can barely lift this monster king size mattress, at the head no doubt.

I agree completely, as anyone should. It was dumb to type out and hit enter with anyway - it wouldn't make it past a serious decision to do it, of course I'm not going to put a loaded gun on my nightstand with the toddler in the room, or one that could even feasibly be loaded by a toddler. Plus - that'd take just as long to deal with than just going to the safe.

That said, I mean. Really, get the mag in, and somehow load that thing? My wife can barely pull the slide back. She thought she couldn't, I had to get her to push with one hand and pull with the other. There's no way in hell my 2 year old can do it. But still not worth it.

You're absolutely right, and I regret typing that and hitting enter.

I saw some qujck access safes on dicks' website. They looked pretty good - but I didn't look too much into them.

Edit: The toddler's bed is in our room because we bought a 2 bedroom house before we got married. Now the teen moved in and we had a baby. We figure we can hold out like this till he's out in a couple years.

(it was 3 bedroom, two were combined for the master long ago)

Not sure why that's up for discussion though..

Burnsy
01-21-2013, 02:09
I said MAYBE I could find reason to keep the pistol in a drawer and the mag between our mattress and headboard or between mattresses or something, while we all slept.

Do you expect your truck to work with no gasoline in it?

You do not seem to understand the concept of seconds between living and bleeding to death.

I submit this video: Warning he dies. He was shot without warning. He had a gun but it was not chambered, he failed to chamber it under fire, no less get to it from a safe.

He was on the ground bleeding, undefensive in 7 seconds and left this world 12 seconds later.

There was no combination involved.

I am not trying to be "right" I am trying to open your eyes. Safes are useless for lifesaving firearms.

LiveLeak.com - Jewelery Store Shooting in Agra


Do you think you could wake up after being shot, take incoming fire while you put in your combination and absorb bullets like a sponge, get your gun, slam a mag home, chamber a round and do any better?

Not saying I could, just trying to make you understand what you are proposing.

Arc Angel
01-21-2013, 07:22
Her grip is horrid - so many things wrong! The internet doesn't allow for nuance, so I can only offer opinion based on limited info.

She seems to have long fingers for her height - - that’s good if my observation is correct. It appears she could reach the trigger, with a proper grip. I THINK if she used a 2 handed grip that is "proper", she could probably shoot the 20 with mild loads. I doubt she could use it effectively with 1 hand (as if injured or using a phone to call 911).

Now, I'm gonn’a, sort’a, take back something I said in an earlier post. The 20 and the 30 are the same frame size and by all objective measures if the 20 doesn't work, the 30 shouldn't either. Having said that, I have known people who have said they can't shoot a 20 or 21, but for some reason can shoot a 30.

If you are dead set on a Glock - the best thing you could get would be a G19, even if it means waiting (best is to meet all/most of your desires).

Calhoun, for whatever good it will do: You got that right! Mrs. Phases’s grip isn’t bad; it’s awful! (She’s supposed to be trained, correct?) ;) Personally, I think the G-30 often works because (1) it’s balance in the hand is very good; and (2) the short barrel and Glock’s, ‘modified Browning lockup’ work well together.

Do you expect your truck to work with no gasoline in it? You do not seem to understand the concept of seconds between living and bleeding to death.

I submit this video: Warning he dies. He was shot without warning. He had a gun but it was not chambered, he failed to chamber it under fire, no less get to it from a safe. He was on the ground bleeding, undefensive (SIC) in 7 seconds and left this world 12 seconds later. There was no combination involved. I am not trying to be "right" I am trying to open your eyes. Safes are useless for lifesaving firearms. …….

(INSERT RIDICULOUS AGRA GUNFIGHT VIDEO HERE!)

Do you think you could wake up after being shot, take incoming fire while you put in your combination and absorb bullets like a sponge, get your gun, slam a mag home, chamber a round and do any better? Not saying I could, just trying to make you understand what you are proposing.

:upeyes: Do you have any idea how many times this video has been posted and discussed, ad nauseam, on this and numerous other gun forums?

You know what they say about computer programming, correct? ‘Junk in/junk out’. Well, that’s what this video is! Everything about, both, the victim’s body language and the way he attempts to manipulate his pistol says that he’s not going to make it! The video is, in fact, about a completely untrained, largely unskilled, PERFECT VICTIM with a pistol in his hand.

I will, however, agree that if your self-defense firearm is locked in a safe when you are attacked, ……… well, then, you’ve got a serious problem. That problem is NOT a result of C-3 carry, though. (I really miss David Armstrong. He is a fine pistol instructor; he knew how to use guns; and he resigned from this board in utter disgust over all the stupid comments, the constant displays of, ‘cowboy machismo’, and the never-ending, ill-conceived opinions about C-1 vs. C-3 carry.) :freak:

Too bad for me that I’m not as savvy as David Armstrong; obviously I don’t know when to get off internet gun boards; and, here, I can only speak for myself: I refuse - REFUSE - to allow a video that depicts the behavior of a completely inept man with a gun to serve as a rational basis upon which I should decide how to carry and use a self-defense pistol.

AS A LEARNING TOOL THAT VIDEO IS, BOTH, INTELLECTUAL AND TACTICAL GARBAGE. IT ONLY SERVES TO REMIND ME THAT THE BLIND CAN’T LEAD THE BLIND ANYWHERE BUT TO HELL.

That’s it! I’m out of this, now. There’s been too much prevarication, too much, ‘making it up as you go along’, and some real unwillingness to either learn or accept criticism in this thread. Nobody learns how to drive a car by studying train wrecks; and it’s really hard to keep up with someone who, ‘manufactures facts to suit his argument’ as he goes along. Internet gun forums will always be internet gun forums; and, just like Socrates said nearly 2,000 years ago, ‘Majority opinions are usually wrong!’ ;)

Whenever you have: children, the elderly, or grossly unskilled (but presumptuous) people in the home, keeping any loaded or partially loaded gun out, or even keeping a gun locked up and in C-1, is highly conducive to, both, mishandling and/or a nonintentional discharge. In my own experience, ‘schmucks and guns’ do NOT get along well together; and, as I was reminded, yesterday afternoon, at the range: Everybody THINKS they are right until something goes wrong.

In this life, a personal ability to recognize that you’re doing something wrong BEFORE a problem occurs is rare; and, again as I’ve been recently reminded, far too many people, much too often, are quick to exhibit a personal attitude of being largely unwilling to listen. That’s people; and that’s people on the Internet, too. Sometimes it’s far better to, either, just stand back and let the train wreck occur; or to simply walk off a too popular firing line and go home.

ENJOY! (These two guys are, ‘acceptable’; and their advice is sound; but neither man exhibits the very best form or technique I’ve ever seen. MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH TO ADEQUATELY RESPOND TO ANY JEWELRY STORE ROBBERY, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, THOUGH.) :thumbsup:

Empty chamber draw - YouTube

Modified Israeli Mossad Draw (IMD) - YouTube

Being 100% ready-to-go, and being 100% safe with a gun are trade-offs. Far more than just being ready for an instantaneous CQB pistol ambush (rare in most people’s lives) has to be taken into consideration. (Except, of course, on the Internet where, ‘cowboys with Glocks’ and loud majority opinions always seem to prevail.)

You know what never fails to, ‘ring my chimes’? All of these, ‘internet cowboys with guns’ who don’t actually have the genuine self-defense mentality it takes to participate in and survive an armed CQB encounter. They only think that they do! In the meantime these guys walk around all day long exposing everyone they come into contact with to needless potential harm from their fully-charged pistols. ;)

Phases
01-21-2013, 09:17
Do you expect your truck to work with no gasoline in it?

You do not seem to understand the concept of seconds between living and bleeding to death.

I submit this video: Warning he dies. He was shot without warning. He had a gun but it was not chambered, he failed to chamber it under fire, no less get to it from a safe.

He was on the ground bleeding, undefensive in 7 seconds and left this world 12 seconds later.

There was no combination involved.

I am not trying to be "right" I am trying to open your eyes. Safes are useless for lifesaving firearms.

LiveLeak.com - Jewelery Store Shooting in Agra (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712)


Do you think you could wake up after being shot, take incoming fire while you put in your combination and absorb bullets like a sponge, get your gun, slam a mag home, chamber a round and do any better?

Not saying I could, just trying to make you understand what you are proposing.

Well, I've seen people die from gunfire in person man. Not in civilian life so I realize circumstance is different.. But I understand death and how quickly it comes. I understand what bullets, one or a barrage, do to a human body.

But right now I have to find a compromise and for us a bedside and or closet safe is it. Closet during waking hours, bedside when we sleep. Or maybe always bedside, I dunno. Remember, just a few days ago I had zero options but whatever I could grab. I may not have a chance to grab it in some situations. Just like I didn't a few days ago. But now I do, in others.

The point in this thread was to hang with me if you wanted during the purchase of our handguns. I planned on making another to take input on our home and situation later, if I wanted. I'll still take it here , :) , but I'm really not looking to explain why our arrangements are what they are or argue with anyone. We're not in a perfect scenario. Is anyone?

Anyone have any thoughts on the g29 I should know about? Or g33? Bouncing all over the place here I know. I like the 20 29 36 and 30 ATM.. Btw, speaking of ATM, is there a list of acronyms here? I've seen a bunch and most I've been able to figure out.. Leo, iwb, ccw, edc, but I've seen others. If there happens to be a list so I don't have to Google as I come across them..;) (...though I suppose I can just Google for the list. Ha)

Calhoun123
01-21-2013, 09:40
I happen to agree with having the gun locked up if not on you. I would not have it locked behind a dial combination lock. A box with a simplex lock can be opened by feel (not sight) in less than 2 seconds and does fine to keep kids out. Moreover, no batteries are required. A pistol box isn't even that expensive.

My box is in my nightstand and it NEVER moves. My wife know how to get in and knows it will always be there with loaded guns that are point and shoot.

Phases
01-21-2013, 09:43
Simplex locks look perfect.

Burnsy
01-21-2013, 10:12
I would agree that it's at least a better option than a dial.

Phases
01-22-2013, 18:30
Alright! Done :) I appreciate everyone's help and advice! Here is what we've settled on.

I took the 20 back, it's just too large. And I think what we've done is perfect.

I got a nickel boron G30 that I can just put a 10mm barrel in if I decide I want to one day. It's no 20, but close! The size is just a better fit in the real world for me.

Got a G27 for the wife, and if it's too much for her we can put a 9mm barrel in it. She went with me and held that, a couple Diamond Backs, and a taurus revolver. Those were the only three she could hold properly. She chose the 27. Wasn't worried about shooting first to choose (as I didn't) because she figures either way, with any gun, it's going to be all be a learning curve. Going to have to learn any of them and rather not just spend all this time being indecisive.

So we're both willing to get what would seem to be a really good fit and adjust if needed.

We ultimately both wanted Glocks anway, for the safe action.

They put much easier to use slide releases on them for free, and a mag release extension for her 27 too. Also a bore snake for free. And said to come back tomorrow to get "butt plugs" if I want them to go in the hole behind the mag.

Got some "smart ammo", powerball, for the 30, regular hollow tips of some type for the 27 for home. Will buy practice rounds at the range. (or is it an arm and a leg to do that?)

We're both signed up for a 2 day safety/ccw course in a month.

The spin dial safe will be used for ammo, etc, and other things that need to be in a safe. We'll get bedside simplex lock boxes, or at least one, for when we're asleep.

We plan to shoot regularly enough as we can to get and stay proficient. We are going to continue to revisit and refine our "plan" for the house. I think it's pretty simple. Ranch house, only one side anyone can even really get in, we don't have a TON of bases to cover.

Whew. Glad that's over, and I'm real happy with the end result. Most the time we're out together so if the 30 is too big, I have a smaller option, too. But it's 100% "her" gun :)

Appreciate all the advice and patience guys. Really I was just trying to offer those that want to give advice someone to give it to, meet the community. Wasn't trying to get into anything crazy, but hey it is what it is.

Thanks again all. Hope you don't mind seeing more of me around here. ;)

If any of you ever make it over to my neck of the woods (AndroidForums dot com), hit me up.

Oh, here's a pic. Which seems silly to post as I'm sure every one of you know darn well what these look like. Heh.

-Phases

glockfanbob
01-22-2013, 19:31
Personally I think the 30 is more comfortable and easier to shoot then the 27. If you want to truly get the most bang for your buck training it would have made sense to go to one caliber for both. Perhaps a 36 for the wife.

All of this makes no difference, it's your money and your guns. I do like the nickle boron 30! Happy shooting!

DSRTEAGLE357
01-22-2013, 20:18
you can't go wrong with the 30

Calhoun123
01-22-2013, 21:30
One final thing phases, since you got the 27 when you go to buy ammo (for now) only buy 180 grain bullets. The reason is that the recoil impulse is somewhat milder/smoother (than lighter bullets) which will allow a greater chance of success with that gun.

HKLovingIT
01-22-2013, 22:10
You might discover that your wife likes the 30 better and you might like the 27 better. :dunno: :supergrin:

Let us know how it's working out down the road. :wavey:

Phases
01-23-2013, 06:56
Personally I think the 30 is more comfortable and easier to shoot then the 27. If you want to truly get the most bang for your buck training it would have made sense to go to one caliber for both. Perhaps a 36 for the wife.

All of this makes no difference, it's your money and your guns. I do like the nickle boron 30! Happy shooting!

Thank ya! I wasn't sure what I thought at first but the more I looked at it the more I liked it. It's not SF and I can certainly feel the difference holding one handed. Still feels good, less good, but good. Two handed it feels great.

you can't go wrong with the 30

That's what I hear. Everywhere. :D

One final thing phases, since you got the 27 when you go to buy ammo (for now) only buy 180 grain bullets. The reason is that the recoil impulse is somewhat milder/smoother (than lighter bullets) which will allow a greater chance of success with that gun.

I would have never expected to hear that. I would have thought lighter bullets would have meant milder. Kinda like when people said slower meant more penetration (I think), that confused me too. I would have thought faster. I have a lot to learn!

You might discover that your wife likes the 30 better and you might like the 27 better. :dunno: :supergrin:

Let us know how it's working out down the road. :wavey:

Yeah.. if that's the case, fine by me! Though, the 20 was SF and she couldn't grip it properly, so I doubt she could this one. Though, one thing we didn't test which I'm kicking myself for - is two handed. That's how she'd shoot so.. why in the world did I not think to have her hold it that way.

So knowing that, maybe the 30 would be at least shootable for her. :)

Phases
02-24-2013, 21:43
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo.... ended up getting the 20 back, Gen four. So now we have the 20, the 30, and the 27 and a 9mm barrel.

I can't say enough about the 20 from the mere 35 rounds I shot from it. I had a choice between the gen 3 and 4 and decided to go with four because it was:

1. Cheaper by 25 bucks. (different shops)
2. Extra magazine.
3. Backstraps.
4. I do like the grip texture better.
5. Glock, at least in the magazine I have here, say the Gen 4's dual guide rod spring system helps with recoil management. Being a 10mm, I thought that might be good.

.. It was a damn dream. It really was. I heard people say it in videos, and in the shop people said their friends that had shot it loved it, etc. So, I bought it and shot it there and it was awesome. The recoil wasn't what I was expecting. You can tell it's a beefy round, but it's perfectly manageable thus far.

Feels really good to shoot, it's really fun. Had 2 other shooters and 2 staff members crowded around watching. The two shooters shot it and loved it.

I might also add, from the mere 15 foot mark anyway, I was shooting really well with it. Tore that x up.

I've been carrying it around the house since I got it to see if anyone noticed, no one has. They all think they're all locked up. So, I intend on challenging the "It's too hard to carry CCW" notion.

;)

BMiracletx
02-24-2013, 22:24
I would have never expected to hear that. I would have thought lighter bullets would have meant milder. Kinda like when people said slower meant more penetration (I think), that confused me too. I would have thought faster. I have a lot to learn!

Think of it this way... lighter bullets are driven by more powder, so they tend to be faster and "snappier" in recoil than the heavier bullets which use less powder and travel slower.

As for penetration though, if I throw a ping pong ball and a golf ball at something as hard as I can... which will penetrate further? The heavier golf ball...

Kinda basic generalities, but maybe you can see the difference.