Does your Glock pass the 1911 Ejection Test? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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glockguns
01-20-2013, 12:19
What Glock do you have ? Does it pass the 1911 ejection test ? With what ammo ?

I've read that Glocks aren't necessarily designed to do this but just curious.

Performing the 1911 Ejection Test: (as I understand it)
1. Place one round in an empty magazine
2. Insert magazine
3. Rack Slide
4. Remove Magazine
5. Fire pistol
6. Note what happened with the ejection. Did it fall down through the magazine well ? Eject out of the port etc ?

lethal tupperwa
01-20-2013, 12:22
is a Glock a 1911?

pangloss9
01-20-2013, 13:23
I suppose you're referring to being able to eject an empty brass without a mag in the gun. I have several Glocks and the only one that can reliably do this is my Gen4 G17 (factory recoil spring, factory ejector, factory extractor). I bought the gun in February of 2010, so it is an early Gen4.

cciman
01-20-2013, 15:17
What is the point of this?

Can a 1911 pass the Glock tests?

Test1: Empty, unloaded, weapon.
Rack the slide and SLAM it closed (slingshot, it as hard as it will go) on an empty chamber, on purpose, as often as you like.
Not cry about it.

Test 2: Field strip it, with tissue or paper towel wipe all the lubricant you can find on the rails and anywhere inside. Put it back together. Shoot 300 rounds through it and not cry about it.

Test3
Throw the Glock 20 ft onto your front lawn, run up to it stomp on it. While standing on it, do the "twist" and not cry about it.

Test4: detail strip it, and put it back together in under 3 min, and not cry about it.

DrtyHarry
01-20-2013, 15:20
^^lmfao^^




dh

TK-421
01-20-2013, 15:36
What is the point of this?

Can a 1911 pass the Glock tests?

Test1: Empty, unloaded, weapon.
Rack the slide and SLAM it closed (slingshot, it as hard as it will go) on an empty chamber, on purpose, as often as you like.
Not cry about it.

Test 2: Field strip it, with tissue or paper towel wipe all the lubricant you can find on the rails and anywhere inside. Put it back together. Shoot 300 rounds through it and not cry about it.

Test3
Throw the Glock 20 ft onto your front lawn, run up to it stomp on it. While standing on it, do the "twist" and not cry about it.

Test4: detail strip it, and put it back together in under 3 min, and not cry about it.

:agree:

Road Dog
01-20-2013, 15:42
I'm just curious what this "test" is supposed to prove?

glockguns
01-20-2013, 16:35
Gen 4 Glock 19. USA Made. All stock with updated parts (043 RSA and 30274 ejector), "non-dipped" extractor. Test fire date: 8/2012. It's the one and only Glock I have (so far).

YES. Passes the 1911 Ejection test with no problem. Ejection at about 5:00

Ammo used was WWB 115gr and S&B 115gr. Only ammo I tested.

So for the die hard Glock fans out there, calm down. I've got a stock Glock that passes it just fine...

glockguns
01-20-2013, 16:41
Interesting video on the 1911 extractor test...

Apex Glock Extractor Comparison - YouTube

CynicX
01-20-2013, 16:59
Just tried my G32 with a 23 barrel. Failed 13 of 13 rounds. None of switch stove piped.

Personally I don't care. The only time I could think of this being an issue and I really have to use my imagination is if you were firing with no mag (use you imagination to get yourself to that point alone, maybe a poorly timed tactical reload?) is if you were inserting the mag prior to the case clearing the mag well.

I do goofy military esque drills but even that's a stretch for me.

Unless I'm just missing something. Worst case get an Apex tactical extractor. Glock + tactical extractor is less expensive by a LONG shot then any of my 1911's.

JBP55
01-20-2013, 17:22
Apples and Oranges.

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 17:23
The reason that a Glock normaly can't successfully eject a spent casing without a mag inserted is because the Glock extractor can't keep the casing on the proper spot on the breech face while the slide travels rearward because the barrel tilt angle is higher in a Glock than in a 1911. The downward motion of the barrel/chamber wants to pull the casing down with it, away/off from the extractor claw and later the ejector. That's why a Glock either james up/stovepipes, or it ejects through the mag well, if no mag is in the gun. The top round in the mag or the follower of the Glock mag acts like a rail so that the barrel/chamber can't pull the casing down/off the breech.

A 1911 doesn't have that problem because the barrel stays almost still during the extracting process.

The only way to make a Glock nicely eject without a mag inserded is if you put one of those Apex extractors in your Glock. Because that bad boy has a geniously placed notch on the claw which prevents that the casing gets pulled off the breech! It is silly to compare the extraction and ejection mechanism of a Glock with a 1911 extraction/ejection, unless, your Glock has an APEX extractor in it.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/3D-Render-600x307.jpg

ken grant
01-20-2013, 17:33
There is a big design difference between the Glock and a 1911. The Glock is a down tilt barrel and the 1911 is a blow back design.

:rofl:

F106 Fan
01-20-2013, 17:35
There is a big design difference between the Glock and a 1911. The Glock is a down tilt barrel and the 1911 is a blow back design.

A 1911 doesn't have that problem because the barrel stays still during the extracting process.



Then how come the 1911 has locking lugs on the top of the barrel that mate with slots in the underside of the slide?

I thought that little barrel link was in there to drop the barrel as the slide moved to the rear.

Hmm...

Richard

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 17:36
Haha, What's so funny?

ken grant
01-20-2013, 17:43
Blow Backs have no locking lugs. Slide weight and recoil springs control the slide.
A 1911 is a barrel tilt design just like a Glock but uses a different way to tilt the barrel. The link does this on a 1911.

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 17:44
Then how come the 1911 has locking lugs on the top of the barrel that mate with slots in the underside of the slide?

I thought that little barrel link was in there to drop the barrel as the slide moved to the rear.

Hmm...

Richard


I might have used the wrong words, I agree. So how far does a 1911 drop its chamber? And how far does a Glock drop its chamber? Hmmm?

Do you guys get my point now?

Rev.357
01-20-2013, 17:45
This is stupid!! I did this with mine tonight before even seeing this vid & they are all Gen3's & all functioned 100%.

dhgeyer
01-20-2013, 17:57
There is a big design difference between the Glock and a 1911. The Glock is a down tilt barrel and the 1911 is a blow back design.


I'm sorry, but this is just flat out incorrect. The 1911 "links" down, which is basically the same as the Glock "ramping" down. In both designs, back of the barrel moves to the rear with the slide for a tenth of an inch or so, then moves down in order to release the slide to cycle the rest of the way.

If you ever take a 1911 apart (field strip) you will see where bumps and grooves on the top of the barrel mate with matching ones on the inside top of the slide. They are fairly shallow. You will also notice a link between the barrel and the frame. It is that link that does what the ramp on the barrel underlug does on a Glock: pulls the back of the barrel down as it moves rearward.

John Browning's initial design actually had links on both ends of the barrel, and it moved down parallel to the slide. I think someone at Colt suggested the barrel bushing as a way to simplify the design, and the rest is history.

I only mention all this because I think it's important to credit Browning with, arguably, the core design feature of all locked breech short recoil action pistols. The problem he solved, which no one up to that time had, was finding a way to keep the barrel locked to the breech face long enough for the bullet to exit and pressure to drop, with substantial pistol cartridges, without having to resort to very heavy bolts or breechblocks, or a gas operated design. He came up with his solution around the turn of the last century, and most 9mm and above pistols still use it today, albeit with improved methods of getting the back of the barrel down without the link, which always was a weak point in the system with respect to wear and fit.

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 18:04
Yes, I already mentioned that I expressed myself wrong. Read my post again. And you will see that it makes sense now. The higher barrel tilt rate in a Glock is the reason why a stock Glock can't eject the casing properly in most cases with no mag inserted. A 1911 chamber doesn't tilt down as far as in a Glock and therefor leaves the spent casing on the breech where it belongs to so that the ejector can hit the casing on the right spot. A Glock can eject without a mag if you install the new Apex extractor because it has the little notch on the claw. It's all about how well the extractor keeps the spent casing on its proper place on the breech face!

dhgeyer
01-20-2013, 18:05
To answer the OP's original question, I have 2 Glocks, one passes the 1911 test, one does not. Both are Gen4 9mm. The G17 has an Apex extractor, White Sound Defense 20% extra power extractor depressor plunger spring, and an extractor depressor plunger and spring loaded bearing I made on a lathe. It does not pass the 1911 test, but does eject consistently and well.

My G19 has all the same extractor parts as the G17, except the extractor itself, which is a Glock non-dipped MIM part. It does pass the 1911 test quite reliably with a variety of ammo. It also ejects consistently and well. The G19 has more rounds through it than the G17, around 1400.

Go figure!

ken grant
01-20-2013, 18:11
I might have used the wrong words, I agree. So how far does a 1911 drop its chamber? And how far does a Glock drop its chamber? Hmmm?

Do you guys get my point now?

Just did a rough measure on barrel drop at the end of the barrel hood where it meets breachface.

Glock 19 drops .159
Colt Combat Commander drops .272

looks as if the 1911 barrel drops a lot more than a Glock barrel.

dhgeyer
01-20-2013, 18:13
I have 2 Apex extractors and they do not have the notch in the claw. I don't think there is a significant difference in the downward tilt between a Glock and a 1911, but I don't have a 1911 right now to measure with, so I could be wrong. I have several other 9mm pistols that do ramp down as much as a Glock, and they pass the 1911 test quite well. I think the difference is the amount of tension on the extractor (rather weak on a Glock), and possibly other reasons pertaining to tolerances and fit.

As long as it functions well WITH the magazine, I don't worry too much about it. Quite a few of them of recent (not current) manufacture don't even do that.

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 18:26
Here are some pics. My G19 seems to tilt its chamber way further down than the Kimber. Maybe the barrel tilt angle differs by a lot between 1911 manufacturers? I don't know. I don't have much experience with 1911's. Does a 1911 barrel jump up in a horizontal position when the slide is locked back?

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/IMG_0106.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/kimber_custom_tle_ii_slide_locked.jpg

OldLincoln
01-20-2013, 18:33
I prefer the moon test. Go up to the moon and retrieve the Glock left there near the flag from the first moon landing. Bring it to earth without cleaning or disturbing even the dust on it. Since it was left loaded, go the the range carefully aim so as to not disturb the dust and rapid fire the entire mag. If any ejected case hits you in the face it fails.

My 1911 passed that test ever time I tried it.

ken grant
01-20-2013, 18:36
Here are some pics. My G19 seems to tilt its chamber way further down than the Kimber. Maybe the barrel tilt angle differs by a lot between 1911 manufacturers? I don't know. I don't have much experience with 1911's. Does a 1911 barrel jump up in a horizontal position when the slide is locked back?

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/IMG_0106.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd419/wolfgun/kimber_custom_tle_ii_slide_locked.jpg

With both slides locked back, both mine look just like yours.
What I did was measure from the top of the slide when in battery and again from the top of the slide when the barrel drops all the way down coming out of battery.

When looking at the slides locked to the rear, ejection has long passed.
I can't really see a way to measure drop with the slide locked to the rear.

F106 Fan
01-20-2013, 18:37
Just did a rough measure on barrel drop at the end of the barrel hood where it meets breachface.

Glock 19 drops .159
Colt Combat Commander drops .272

looks as if the 1911 barrel drops a lot more than a Glock barrel.

I got 0.152" for both the Glock G21SF AND the Colt Government Combat.

That .272 number? Did you subtract off the fact that the barrel starts out quite a bit below the slide? I measured 0.270" but the barrel started 0.118" low so the difference was 0.152"

I measured at the point where the barrel is just moving away from the breech.

Whatever the numbers are... In any event, the 1911 is NOT a blowback operated gun. The Walther PPK is blowback operated but it's just a .380. The Uzi is blowback operated and it has a MASSIVE bolt. I don't know what it weighs but it is substantial.

Richard

dhgeyer
01-20-2013, 18:45
FWIW back when I was doing a lot with 1911's, I found that not all 1911's pass the 1911 test out of the box. There's a lot of variation in extractor tension as they come from the factory. I've seen ones that put NO tension on the case, and stovepiped all over the place until they were adjusted. One very nice thing about a 1911 is that it's easy to set the extractor tension. You just strip the slide down, pull the extractor (which is its own spring) about half way out, and bend it as needed to put more or less tension on the case. You set the correct tension by doing the following test, assuming your 1911 is a 45, fieldstripped, barrel out of slide.

1. Loaded round under the extractor in the linked up position, slide upright (top of the slide up parallel to floor). Should hold the round. Shake a little. Should fall out. You don't want too much tension or you can get feeding issues.

2. Empty case same position, slide in same position. Shake moderately. Case should not fall out.

Keep bending one way or t'other till it meets both conditions. Always worked for me.

Won't work on a 9mm - round is too light.

AustinTx
01-20-2013, 18:52
What Glock do you have ? Does it pass the 1911 ejection test ? With what ammo ?

I've read that Glocks aren't necessarily designed to do this but just curious.

Performing the 1911 Ejection Test: (as I understand it)
1. Place one round in an empty magazine
2. Insert magazine
3. Rack Slide
4. Remove Magazine
5. Fire pistol
6. Note what happened with the ejection. Did it fall down through the magazine well ? Eject out of the port etc ?

As far as I know, a Colt ain't designed to do that either. Who cares, if the case goes out the grip, as long as it gets out? If a 1911 empties it's magazines, without jams, who cares about "the 1911 ejection" test?

There are more reliable ways to adjust the extractor tension, if that's what you're trying to check, in a 1911.

ken grant
01-20-2013, 18:53
I did allow for the difference between the top of the slide and barrel but screwed up somewhere.
After checking several times, I came up with .077 drop on the Combat Commander.

As I said, these were ROUGH measurements setting at my desk.

Will check into this more when I can get in the shop where I can hold everything better.

F106 Fan
01-20-2013, 19:04
As far as I know, a Colt ain't designed to do that either. Who cares, if the case goes out the grip, as long as it gets out? If a 1911 empties it's magazines, without jams, who cares about "the 1911 ejection" test?

There are more reliable ways to adjust the extractor tension, if that's what you're trying to check, in a 1911.

The only possible reason to care about a case falling out the bottom is the unlikely situation where you fire while in the midst of a magazine change. One of those "just gotta fire right now!" SD things.

Probably not all that important. But I guess I would rather have a gun that ejected every case than one that dumped one down the mag well.

Richard

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 19:19
With both slides locked back, both mine look just like yours.
What I did was measure from the top of the slide when in battery and again from the top of the slide when the barrel drops all the way down coming out of battery.

When looking at the slides locked to the rear, ejection has long passed.
I can't really see a way to measure drop with the slide locked to the rear.


I know that the casing is long gone when the slide reaches its most rearward position. The point is that the barrel lug is already sitting in the locking block while the casing is still about half in the chamber. The slide has to move only about 2mm to the rear and the barrel is already starting to go downward. But the time till the Glock barrel lug sits fully in the locking block also depends on the barrel hood, some, maybe even most 9mm Glock barrels have a beveled barrel hood, some have have a squared hood. The beveld barrel needs more time to fully sit in the locking block. The squared one is way faster. The beveled one is a little easier on the casing because it doesen't kick the casing down too far and too early, the later the better.

CynicX
01-20-2013, 19:32
I was curious about this too so I took my own pics. My Glock drops a lot more then my 1911.

1911 in battery.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/21/3ageqaha.jpg

Here is the barrel removed. That wear mark being pointed at by the pen tip is the "drop" it takes to unlock.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/21/zyta4a4u.jpg

Keep in mind the barrel doesn't lock flush like a glock.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/21/usujaber.jpg

Which drops significantly further when it comes out of battery.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/21/ynyjydaz.jpg

I don't know whether or not this is to blame entirely or not. The initial "drop" is the same on all glocks but the angle gets significantly steeper depending on barrel length. Same applies with a 1911 just because the fulcrum is end of the slide and the closer it is too the lock the more it tilts. This is easily demonstrated if you have a sub compact and full size or just by sliding the barrel out more to show extremes.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/21/agaqu8u3.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/21/e4uhujej.jpg

Made in Austria
01-20-2013, 19:44
Thanks CynicX, your ball pen explains everything. That's one reason why your kind of 1911 doesn't need a mag to eject the last round properly. The other reason is, how well the extractor can keep the shell casing between the claw and the left side of the breech area/wall so that the ejector can hit it on the right spot. A Glock can do this too with the right/modified extractor, but like I said it also depends on the barrel hood design, there are two different Glock 9mm barrel hood designs.

Ohh, the play between the chamber and the shell casing plays a big role as well in the whole extraction process.

AustinTx
01-20-2013, 20:25
FWIW back when I was doing a lot with 1911's, I found that not all 1911's pass the 1911 test out of the box. There's a lot of variation in extractor tension as they come from the factory. I've seen ones that put NO tension on the case, and stovepiped all over the place until they were adjusted. One very nice thing about a 1911 is that it's easy to set the extractor tension. You just strip the slide down, pull the extractor (which is its own spring) about half way out, and bend it as needed to put more or less tension on the case. You set the correct tension by doing the following test, assuming your 1911 is a 45, fieldstripped, barrel out of slide.

1. Loaded round under the extractor in the linked up position, slide upright (top of the slide up parallel to floor). Should hold the round. Shake a little. Should fall out. You don't want too much tension or you can get feeding issues.

2. Empty case same position, slide in same position. Shake moderately. Case should not fall out.

Keep bending one way or t'other till it meets both conditions. Always worked for me.

Won't work on a 9mm - round is too light.

That's the theory and I have had 1 Colt 1911 gun that didn't work like that, it was a Commander. It came, from the factory, not being able to hold a case against the breech face and it ejected perfectly. I adjusted it just like you described and it had one jam after another. With a loose extractor, it worked fine. Never did figure that out, I didn't like the Commander, anyway. Not Glock, but interesting, as gun stuff goes.

Some things are a given and others follow Murphy's law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law

Opie 1 Kenopie
01-20-2013, 20:41
You guys must not have girlfriends.

cciman
01-20-2013, 22:07
Who need girlfriends when we have GUNS?

Actually, I've had plenty of girlfriends. Now I'm married - no more girlfriends! :rofl:

Glock Test #10: Torture test http://theprepared.com/content/view/90//administrator/
Do that with your Colt/SA/Dan Wesson/Caspian/Les Baer and try not to cry.

You guys must not have girlfriends.

ken grant
01-21-2013, 07:52
I am 74 yrs. old,girlfriends are long ways in the past.

Shiloh228
01-21-2013, 08:13
I am 74 yrs. old,girlfriends are long ways in the past.
Reminds me of the classic from George Burns (known, back in the day, for having a Sweet Young Thing hanging around):

Interviewer: George, why don't you date women your own age?
George: There are no women my age.

Rustin
01-21-2013, 18:54
Interesting video on the 1911 extractor test...

Apex Glock Extractor Comparison - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYsHuLC0Kyg)


I think that is what the NY legislators envisioned when they established the safe act.

Single shot only!

Seawolf
01-22-2013, 01:53
Never thought we would see the day when a Glock would need aftermarket parts to function properly.

CynicX
01-22-2013, 09:31
Never thought we would see the day when a Glock would need aftermarket parts to function properly.

I wouldn't say that its not functioning properly more just how it's designed. Even in a combat situation this would be an unlikely event. Like I mentioned earlier the only thing I could think of is a poorly timed tactical reload in a straight up fire fight.

It's more of a test that another handgun set the standards for. Look at all the "glock test" you could come up with and then say, never thought we'd see the day where xyz gun would need aftermarket parts to function properly.

WayneJessie
01-22-2013, 10:35
At this point I'd be happy if my new G19 threw empty brass away from me.

Hand Grenade
01-22-2013, 12:12
Get out of here with your 1911 junk pistols. Why would anyone want to spend $2,000 on a pistol and then have to spend another $1,000 and wait 6 months to a year to send it to a gunsmith to get it to run right. All the 1911 pistols I see at the range are nothing but jamamatics while I shoot 300-400 rounds of Glock Perfection through my G30.

Made in Austria
01-22-2013, 13:59
1911's are no junk. Show some respect to a over a hundred year old American pistol design which is still widely used by world class competition shooters. Beautiful and highly reliable 1911's can be had for under $1000!

Hand Grenade
01-22-2013, 14:58
And how many World Class Shooters are using 1911 pistols that cost under $1,000? They all use pistols that cost upwards of $3,000. Even Larry Vickers who is regarded as the top 1911 pistolsmith uses a Glock pistol. Go ahead and keep practicing your jam clearing procedures with your $3,000 1911 pistols. I'll keep shooting 400 straight rounds of Glock Perfection every time I go to the range.

cciman
01-22-2013, 15:43
There are plenty of other great guns out there: Sig, CZ, HK, SW, SA...blah, blah.

Yet, every time 1911 is mentioned, Glock gets the brunt of it: that's something to be proud of considering the cost of the two specimens.

I own a collection of both Glocks and 1911's. The Glock is something to be admired for its simplicity and functionality-- beauty that goes beyond skin deep..

:tongueout::tongueout:Here's to your 1911 test.:tongueout::tongueout:

WayneJessie
01-22-2013, 16:37
1911's are no junk. Show some respect to a over a hundred year old American pistol design which is still widely used by world class competition shooters. Beautiful and highly reliable 1911's can be had for under $1000!

My pal's bone-stock Ruger SR1911 gulps down any ammo he's tried so far and he paid about $600 for it. I don't own one but I ain't knocking one either. If Glock's design lasts 100yrs without major changes it will be up there with a 1911.

Mad Ryan
01-22-2013, 16:47
What is the point of this?

Can a 1911 pass the Glock tests?

Test1: Empty, unloaded, weapon.
Rack the slide and SLAM it closed (slingshot, it as hard as it will go) on an empty chamber, on purpose, as often as you like.
Not cry about it.

Test 2: Field strip it, with tissue or paper towel wipe all the lubricant you can find on the rails and anywhere inside. Put it back together. Shoot 300 rounds through it and not cry about it.

Test3
Throw the Glock 20 ft onto your front lawn, run up to it stomp on it. While standing on it, do the "twist" and not cry about it.

Test4: detail strip it, and put it back together in under 3 min, and not cry about it.

Any 1911 I've ever built has had the crap beat out of it eventually. I never cry about it and they all run flawlessly. I love my Glocks but they're all tools. They get used.

Mad Ryan
01-22-2013, 16:51
Get out of here with your 1911 junk pistols. Why would anyone want to spend $2,000 on a pistol and then have to spend another $1,000 and wait 6 months to a year to send it to a gunsmith to get it to run right. All the 1911 pistols I see at the range are nothing but jamamatics while I shoot 300-400 rounds of Glock Perfection through my G30.

You're a jackass dude.

Take any 1911. Drop an EGW firing pin stop in it, and tune the extractor and most likely it'll run as good as anything out there.

"Factory" 1911's typically have issues because of those two things in my experience. 30min, and $20 worth of parts and you'll have a pistol that'll work no problem.

Made in Austria
01-22-2013, 16:58
Oh yes the Ruger SR1911 is a great example of a very reliable 1911 for under $1000. I hear only great things about it. I am looking for one right now but they are pretty hard to find around me. I bought a brand new Rock Island Armory 1911 two years ago for $440 that 1911 ran better than my G19 gen4 and G23 gen4. The two gen4's had massive ejection issues before I fixed them.

cciman
01-22-2013, 19:54
This is the under GENERAL GLOCKING forum. You can't walk into a Glock Church and pull out your 1911 script card, and expect choir conversion. Go preach to your own choir. Show me a similar torture test on any non-generic 1911 and I might be mildly swayed.

Again, I also own a collection of 1911's. For my tool of death and destruction, Glock is my Kung fu style of choice.

Hand Grenade
01-22-2013, 23:13
You're a jackass dude.

Take any 1911. Drop an EGW firing pin stop in it, and tune the extractor and most likely it'll run as good as anything out there.

"Factory" 1911's typically have issues because of those two things in my experience. 30min, and $20 worth of parts and you'll have a pistol that'll work no problem.

Is that all....so then why are Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Custom, and other pistolsmiths charging about $3,000 for something a Glock can do out of the box any day and every day.

I can go buy any Glock pistol tomorrow and go straight to the range and shoot it without having to drop in any parts or tweak anything. All in less than 20 minutes.

Winner....Glock!

Made in Austria
01-23-2013, 01:00
.....

MarkCO
01-23-2013, 13:51
Drifted off-topic, name calling, general degeneration of the entire thread. Grow up folks.