Citrus county FL - deputy arrests CHL for exposure [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Citrus county FL - deputy arrests CHL for exposure


opto_isolator
01-20-2013, 21:19
This guy's an idiot for getting out of his car, but, the officer could have definitely handled this better:

LiveLeak.com - FL Deputy Threatens to Shoot Concealed Carry Licensee and Arrests Him for Lawfully carried Handgun

Florida does not require notification unless demanded by law officer.

JimBean
01-20-2013, 21:33
An open carry law would have prevented this. The deputy seemed far more pissed about not having any warning.

itstime
01-20-2013, 21:36
My state requires you to tell them. I really don't understand why every state doesn't.

If I didn't have to tell them I still would. Common sense. I've seen a few of these videos.

tnedator
01-20-2013, 22:11
Maybe it wasn't handled as well as it could have been by the officer, but the concealed carry holder was an idiot. The way he was taking his wallet in and out, fast movements, in the same place where his handgun was, was very careless. From the deputies perspective, all he sees is a guy that hopped out of the van (a no no), and is flinging his hands around in an area where he then sees he has a weapon.

He should have stayed in his vehicle. Pulled his wallet out before the cop got to the car. Not put his hands anywhere near that part of his body again during the stop.

I agree with the above poster, which is this is an example of why all states should just make "duty to inform" a law.

tnedator
01-20-2013, 22:13
Also, if he doesn't have a better concealment garment, he should have been wearing an IWB instead of the OWB holster. Hard to believe that guy hasn't revealed his gun on other occasions, as the concealment garment simply wasn't adequate for his gun/holster, anytime he "reached/raised" his arms.

PzGren
01-20-2013, 22:25
At least the SS did not use foul language like that little punk. If he would have kicked my car door, he would have majorly upset my Prussian temper.

garya1961
01-20-2013, 22:29
The guy should have stayed in the car but the cop was a jerk. The guy is not required to tell him he has a gun in Florida.

Caver 60
01-20-2013, 22:33
I don't know the laws in Florida but in every state I've lived in, you don't get out of the vehicle unless the LEO tells you to. So that looks like mistake number one on his part. (Actually number two, since he had expired tags for the first mistake.)

And since apparently Florida apparently does not have open carry, seems like he should have been concealing better. Can't say I blame the LEO when he doesn't know anything about this guy, except he saw the gun and didn't know the guy had a permit.

Our state doesn't require notification either, unless asked. But if the officer asks me to get out of the vehicle, I'm durn sure going to tell him first that I have a permit and where the weapon is.

oldman11
01-20-2013, 22:55
That cop is a punk who thinks he's a bad*****. He didn't have to scream like a little girl at the guy. If I was his chief I would let the civilian go and do some butt chewing on the patrolman. That is the kind of crap that gives cops bad names.

itsnitro
01-21-2013, 01:17
I wonder what kind of holster the driver was using. I ask because did the deputy see the actual gun or just the holster, i cant tell watching on my phone. Also Isn't there case law pertaining to an exposed holster only saying it isn't brandishing or exposing the firearm?

However, the driver was not smart in hopping out of his vehicle the way he did and moving his hands fast like that. Those two things alone would make me uneasy. I always practice keeping my wallet on my support side.

The driver should have told the deputy he was armed once he began moving and reaching for things inside his vehicle.

Noticed the deputy didn't remove and secure the weapon but left him laying there while focusing on the passenger. The guy could have gotten up and used the gun.

I would have detained him as well to make sure he wasn't a criminal or that he had a ccw. While it's now the law in Fla I would always tell the officer I'm carrying.



posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

itsnitro
01-21-2013, 01:24
Also the deputy screaming "like a little girl", put yourself in his shoes, suspected firearm, man takes hands from the van, puts them to his side, with his gun side away from you now. You had no idea what his intentions were at that time.

Unfortunately the driver just had a lot going against him. I feel the driver should'very gotten an ass chewing by the deputy for what he did but not arrested.


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

janice6
01-21-2013, 01:40
My vehicle was struck at a stop light on a major highway. The police from a couple of agencies showed up. I was asked for my insurances by one officer. When I reached in and leaned over the drivers seat to the center council, the officer stepped into me and quietly asked if I had a permit for that "thing". I said sure and asked if she wanted to see it. She smiled and said no, I trust you.

We do not have to notify here. No one was alarmed, no one got put at gunpoint, no one was excited.

The whole episode went without a hitch. One officer even stayed with my wife till the ambulance got there.

I was stopped another time and I stayed in the vehicle, showed my drivers license to the officer as requested and showed him my permit to carry. Nothing was said, he nodded to me and that was it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the LEO's I have encountered for any reason, in my life. they have been real pro's.

itsnitro
01-21-2013, 02:11
My vehicle was struck at a stop light on a major highway. The police from a couple of agencies showed up. I was asked for my insurances by one officer. When I reached in and leaned over the drivers seat to the center council, the officer stepped into me and quietly asked if I had a permit for that "thing". I said sure and asked if she wanted to see it. She smiled and said no, I trust you.

We do not have to notify here. No one was alarmed, no one got put at gunpoint, no one was excited.

The whole episode went without a hitch. One officer even stayed with my wife till the ambulance got there.

I was stopped another time and I stayed in the vehicle, showed my drivers license to the officer as requested and showed him my permit to carry. Nothing was said, he nodded to me and that was it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the LEO's I have encountered for any reason, in my life. they have been real pro's.

:thumbup: glad all went well!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

TK-421
01-21-2013, 03:31
Both of them were morons and should've handled it better, but it's in the past and people will move on. Doubt either one has learned a lesson though.

ricklee4570
01-21-2013, 04:50
A lot of peoople who may never have been pulled over in their entire life are unaware that they should stay in their vehicle. And really, are we as citizens safer because we use tax dollars to arrest this guy and put him in jail?

The cop is an a-hole. For crying out loud, when does common sense play a role here? This is probably the same kind of cop that when he runs into a big tough menacing gang member he starts with the "Sir, for your own protection sir please keep your hands where I can see them sir", but with some middle class law abiding citizen he becomes Mr. Tough Guy.

IGotIt
01-21-2013, 06:03
Florida law also excuses "accidental exposure". I believe this would be an example of that. The cop was a bit overboard obviously not having been exposed to many guns so far in his career IMO.

12131
01-21-2013, 06:54
That cop was an ***hole. No if, and, or but about it. The driver was stupid for getting out of the van, but the cop seemed ok with it at first, until he saw the gun, and screamed like a little girl. Jerk!:steamed:

badge315
01-21-2013, 07:29
The officer may have been a little over the top in his reaction, and he definitely should not have arrested the driver, but I say the lion's share of stupidity in this incident falls on the driver. I can absolutely see how that might have looked to the officer like he was going for a gun.

SouthernBoyVA
01-21-2013, 07:34
This officer was way out of line. There's no excuse for foul language, threatening to shoot the man in the back, or CLOSING THE MAN'S DOOR WITH HIS SHOE! Were this to happen in my state, we'd be on that LEO like stink on dodo.

SouthernBoyVA
01-21-2013, 07:36
I wonder what kind of holster the driver was using. I ask because did the deputy see the actual gun or just the holster, i cant tell watching on my phone. Also Isn't there case law pertaining to an exposed holster only saying it isn't brandishing or exposing the firearm?

However, the driver was not smart in hopping out of his vehicle the way he did and moving his hands fast like that. Those two things alone would make me uneasy. I always practice keeping my wallet on my support side.

The driver should have told the deputy he was armed once he began moving and reaching for things inside his vehicle.

Noticed the deputy didn't remove and secure the weapon but left him laying there while focusing on the passenger. The guy could have gotten up and used the gun.

I would have detained him as well to make sure he wasn't a criminal or that he had a ccw. While it's now the law in Fla I would always tell the officer I'm carrying.



posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

There is case law regarding this in my state. Just because an officer sees a holster does not mean that there is a firearm within.

2-8 Marine
01-21-2013, 07:46
The driver was stupid for not staying in the vehicle, walking around and allowing his holster/handgun to be exposed . . . the Deputy's behavior was well beyond a reasonable reaction to a citizen with a handgun. If I were his supervisor, upon viewing this tape, I'd definately have a serious talk with him.

SouthernBoyVA
01-21-2013, 07:48
Now as far as the man getting out of his vehicle, we don't know if the officer asked him to step out before the video begins, but we do know that apparently his getting out of his vehicle meant with the approval of the officer based upon the officer's greeting.

Now as to the argument of whether or not you should inform an officer when you are carrying is going to depend upon two things: state law and the purview of the individual being stopped. In my state, we do not have to inform so it is up to me as to whether or not I will do this. I base my decision to inform on the specific incident at hand; how I perceive the officer and his demeanor.

In general, I am likely to be more of a mind to inform because I don't like surprises and I'm quite sure an LEO doesn't either. I don't know what sort of day he's had, if he has had to run down a BG within the last few hours, had something bad happen at home, or whatever. I want to go home in one piece as does he, so my general inclination is to inform. But then, most of the time I am open carrying so if he wants me to exit my vehicle, he's going to see my firearm anyway and in that case, you can bet I will tell him before exiting that I am armed.

SigFTW
01-21-2013, 08:18
The cop was out of line. If the cop though the man was a threat then he would have secured the gun, he did not. He needs to give Andy back his one bullet.

fwm
01-21-2013, 08:55
My state requires you to tell them. I really don't understand why every state doesn't.

If I didn't have to tell them I still would. Common sense. I've seen a few of these videos.

Not living in a state that requires notification, I don't, and I have had vary many opportunities.

Always two IWB, usually another in my jacket pocket as well as a 9mm and a 380 in the driver door pocket.

Never had any problems at all. And I am talking maybe 20 opportunities in the last 10 years. They can see I have a CCW when they run my license, and around here, the LEO respect that right.

jhooten
01-21-2013, 13:24
As soon as the shift supervisor saw the tape I would have been on my way home for a prolonged unpaid vacation, three days for every F-bomb dropped and a few extra for making him have to fill out the disciplinary report.

KalashniKEV
01-21-2013, 17:46
1) The driver appears drunk from his speech and the way that he fumbles around with his billfold.

2) Is that a real Police Officer? He looks like he's wearing a T-Shirt and an LBE...

3) I'm glad VA is not a duty to inform state.

LAWDOGKMS
01-21-2013, 18:04
I'm LE and usually pro-LE, but this cop did not handle this well at all.. We don't know what happened before, during the stop, (furtive movements etc..) and only see a short clip.

However, in this day and age everyone has a CCL, and as an officer you should expect to encounter CCL holders from time to time. I would have drawn too, and created some distance, but wouldn't have shouted obscenities, nor put the guy on the ground, unless he was belligerent.

I'd have put him in a position of compliance, with his hands behind his head and removed the gun from the holster with my off hand..

Then, I'd have given him a short but professional lecture about my safety, his and the concept of staying in your vehicle, letting the officer know you are armed as a courtesy and for his safety as well, whether or not the law says you have to..

KalashniKEV
01-21-2013, 18:14
I'm LE and usually pro-LE, but this cop did not handle this well at all.. We don't know what happened before, during the stop, (furtive movements etc..) and only see a short clip.

However, in this day and age everyone has a CCL, and as an officer you should expect to encounter CCL holders from time to time. I would have drawn too, and created some distance, but wouldn't have shouted obscenities, nor put the guy on the ground, unless he was belligerent.

I'd have put him in a position of compliance, with his hands behind his head and removed the gun from the holster with my off hand..

Then, I'd have given him a short but professional lecture about my safety, his and the concept of staying in your vehicle, letting the officer know you are armed as a courtesy and for his safety as well, whether or not the law says you have to..

1) You would have drawn??? Why?

2) Wouldn't you agree it's safer for both parties if no one touches their gun?

3) In a state without a duty to inform, you're not going to have many folks inform. I never do. It keeps LEOs polite, professional, and on their toes. That's your professional lecture for the day...

I can't see if the officer did or didn't draw from the video, but what if his wife had a CCW? The officer seems unstable, unprofessional, and scared.

LAWDOGKMS
01-21-2013, 20:29
1) You would have drawn??? Why?

2) Wouldn't you agree it's safer for both parties if no one touches their gun?

3) In a state without a duty to inform, you're not going to have many folks inform. I never do. It keeps LEOs polite, professional, and on their toes. That's your professional lecture for the day...

I can't see if the officer did or didn't draw from the video, but what if his wife had a CCW? The officer seems unstable, unprofessional, and scared.

I would have drawn, because I am going to have the upper hand if the encounter goes south..and I do not yet know what this citizen's intentions are. I'm not going to get into a quickdraw contest if this guy turns out to be a nut like the Kehoe brothers..

No, I do not agree on the topic of it being better if no one touches their guns. Action (if he draws) is faster than my reaction could be and I want to go home at the end of my shift.. The officer was 100%, completely justified in drawing his weapon and think he might have even been no-billed by a grand jury if he shot the guy, because of the guy's actions and not following directions well. Anyone who doesn't do exactly what an officer says when the officer points a gun at them is either crazy, a real bad ass that wants to die, or impaired (which is what I'd guess this guy is). Officers are not taught to wait and see if a potential bad guy is going to draw on them anymore. If the gun is present in the scenario, commands are given and not followed, or furtive movements are made, those commands can be followed by shots.

I would recommend informing as a matter of practice. It will build rapport with the officer, makes him feel like you're a law abiding citizen, conscious of his dangerous job, and makes him more at ease. I've personally, never disarmed someone that informed me they were CCW..and that's not the people that scare me, it's the ones that want to play-secret with their weapons..

Who cares if the woman also has a CCW permit? What does that have to do with anything? Women are "virtually almost never" agressors with LE, are handled differently, and the man with the concealed weapon is priority #1..

It is at least a monthly occurrance and sometimes more frequently where I encounter people concealing guns (usually illegally) because guns and dope go hand in hand and I work a lot of dope related warrants. Sometimes strong language and a "I'll blow your head off if you reach for it" is necessary, but the times I've said it were after a foot pursuit or car chase, or a "known" really bad guy, known to carry a gun, and sometimes that kind of language is the only way to get your point across with these individuals..

In this scenario, this situation hadn't escalated by any aggravating factors that I know of, and the officer could have leveled his sights and calmly told the man to follow his instructions to the letter without the language and threats, like I wrote before..

And..I'm reasonably certain you have no place to be lecturing me on this subj. Until you've worked patrol for years like I have or worked on a felony fugitive squad for another 10 years plus, dealing with the worst of the worst that would kill you in a second to get away or not get captured, don't try to lecture me.

Ruble Noon
01-21-2013, 21:10
The guy should be pushing a broom somewhere instead of carrying a gun around in public...and yeah, I'm talking about the cop.

Captain Steinbrenner
01-21-2013, 21:39
Guy lawyered up and is suing the LEO and his Deparment.
Too bad the money won't come out of his pension and 401K,
we will be footing the bill. :faint:

KalashniKEV
01-21-2013, 21:40
I would have drawn, because I am going to have the upper hand if the encounter goes south..

Seems like it would be a dangerous escalation to me.

...and think he might have even been no-billed by a grand jury if he shot the guy, because of the guy's actions and not following directions well. ...If the gun is present in the scenario, commands are given and not followed, or furtive movements are made, those commands can be followed by shots.

Ummm... no. A Police Officer can't shoot someone for "not following directions well."

If he did, a real-life grand jury would take one look at Nervous Nelly on that tape and indict. He did not handle the situation in a professional manner at all.


Who cares if the woman also has a CCW permit? What does that have to do with anything? Women are "virtually almost never" agressors with LE, are handled differently, and the man with the concealed weapon is priority #1..

If the officer took the situation South by unprofessional conduct and an improper escalation of force, the woman might be forced into action to defend her husband.

Surely you've seen a woman "defend her man" in improbable situations.

NEOH212
01-21-2013, 21:46
Don't you know, only cops are supposed to carry guns....:whistling:



I don't care if you have a permit for it....

:upeyes::upeyes::upeyes:

mortpes
01-21-2013, 21:51
What is important. Cops have guns. Cops are killed on the job. Cops are nervous about being killed on the job. Nervous people with guns have accidents. Accidents kill. Beware.

NEOH212
01-21-2013, 22:00
The guy should be pushing a broom somewhere instead of carrying a gun around in public...and yeah, I'm talking about the cop.

I would have to agree in this case. I didn't see the CHL holder do anything that prompted that response from the officer.

His performance was piss poor at best and his actions were out of line. He could have handled that situation much better than he did.

(Cue the people that think the cops are always right no matter how wrong they are....:yawn:)

garya1961
01-21-2013, 22:12
My state has open carry and and you are required to notify a cop you have a gun. My only expierence with this was a a traffic stop before I got my CCW. My gun was in the passenger seat as I handed the officer my DL I said I have my gun with me . He looked at the gun then my DL and handed me back my DL and said have a nice day. No one got excited, no one got hurt and we both went on with our lives. This is the way it should happen. I don't like having a gun pointed at me by anyone including a cop, accidents happen.

LAWDOGKMS
01-22-2013, 06:54
Seems like it would be a dangerous escalation to me.



Ummm... no. A Police Officer can't shoot someone for "not following directions well."

If he did, a real-life grand jury would take one look at Nervous Nelly on that tape and indict. He did not handle the situation in a professional manner at all.



If the officer took the situation South by unprofessional conduct and an improper escalation of force, the woman might be forced into action to defend her husband.

Surely you've seen a woman "defend her man" in improbable situations.

You're wrong, everything you wrote here is wrong and I've heard before it all before from the anti-govt, anti-police crowd..

Computer-commandos like you will never listen to reason from experienced people who've been there, who have done the job etc....

As much as I'd like to set you straight and articulate why you're wrong, I don't have the time or energy.

It's about the totality of the circumstances...

I will however refer you to a case local to me, that became caselaw, that is on topic for what I'm trying to explain to you:

http://openjurist.org/926/f2d/494/reese-v-anderson

Have a good day.

SouthernBoyVA
01-22-2013, 07:10
1) You would have drawn??? Why?

2) Wouldn't you agree it's safer for both parties if no one touches their gun?

3) In a state without a duty to inform, you're not going to have many folks inform. I never do. It keeps LEOs polite, professional, and on their toes. That's your professional lecture for the day...

I can't see if the officer did or didn't draw from the video, but what if his wife had a CCW? The officer seems unstable, unprofessional, and scared.

I know of an incident in our state (we are both Virginians) where the passenger was killed by a backup LEO. The driver was stopped for some infraction or perceived infraction and the first officer was addressing the driver. As he did this, a backup LEO had arrived and had gotten out of his car and approached the passenger side of the stopped car. The first officer asked for the driver's license and registration and the passenger opened the glove box to get the registration. There was a handgun in the glove box and the passenger removed it to get to the registration. When the backup LEO saw this, he yelled "Gun", then pulled his sidearm and fired, killing the passenger.

What the driver should have done was to tell the first officer that his registration was in his glove box and that he also had a handgun in there as well, then asked the officer how he would like him to proceed. This puts both information and time into the equation and may well have saved the passenger's life.

Yes, we do not have to inform here in Virginia and the way I approach this is to treat each individual incident on its own merits. If I see no need to inform, I may not. On the other hand, if I believe that it may be in my better interests, I will. But I rarely get stopped... haven't had a moving violation since April 1971.

There is one other positive outcome to informing even when you are not required to do so. It helps build a solid report between police and armed citizens which puts them on our side instead of thinking of us as a bunch of wannabe cowboys.

Bruce M
01-22-2013, 07:11
1) You would have drawn??? Why?

...
.... That's your professional lecture for the day...

.... I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe it is accepted to draw on someone who is armed or for that matter even when the police think someone may be armed it is acceptable.

And not knowing suggests that your "professional" lecture may be drawn from some other nonapplicable profession.

...
And..I'm reasonably certain you have no place to be lecturing me on this subj. Until you've worked patrol for years like I have .... Hmmm you think he may not know some of the stuf he thinks he does?

Guy lawyered up and is suing the LEO and his Deparment.
Too bad the money won't come out of his pension and 401K,
we will be footing the bill. :faint: How much money do you think he is going to get?

....


Ummm... no. A Police Officer can't shoot someone for "not following directions well."

.... No but if the person who is not following directions also happens to be armed that puts the situation right about where it needs to be to begin justifying use of deadly force. Believe it or not, the police do not actually have to be fired on, or even have the gun pointed at them.

eracer
01-22-2013, 07:19
Maybe it wasn't handled as well as it could have been by the officer, but the concealed carry holder was an idiot. The way he was taking his wallet in and out, fast movements, in the same place where his handgun was, was very careless. From the deputies perspective, all he sees is a guy that hopped out of the van (a no no), and is flinging his hands around in an area where he then sees he has a weapon.

He should have stayed in his vehicle. Pulled his wallet out before the cop got to the car. Not put his hands anywhere near that part of his body again during the stop.

I agree with the above poster, which is this is an example of why all states should just make "duty to inform" a law.I disagree with the 'Must Inform' sentiment, but absolutely the guy should NOT have exited his vehicle until asked to do so.

My policy is: My lawfully concealed weapon is none of the officer's business until he asks me whether I have a firearm in the vehicle, or he asks me to step out, at which point I will immediately volunteer that I have a gun and a permit on my person.

KalashniKEV
01-22-2013, 07:37
I will however refer you to a case local to me, that became caselaw, that is on topic for what I'm trying to explain to you:

http://openjurist.org/926/f2d/494/reese-v-anderson

Have a good day.

So?

Here's an even more bizarre tale:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/05/nyregion/officers-in-bronx-fire-41-shots-and-an-unarmed-man-is-killed.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

All of those guys got off too, but how many times would you want to roll those dice?

Being a Nervous Nellie in uniform and constantly in fear for your life does not grant the officer extended powers to shoot people who are not performing a hostile act.

Yeah, yeah... I know, go home at the end of the shift, hard work, dangers of speeding motorists...

Nothing I have said in this thread is "anti-police." Why is the LEO contingent on here so hyper-sensitive? We're discussing a video.

Lastly, I really think you might need to attend some retraining on the subject... or maybe take a break to cool off from all your high-threat-dope-interdiction-operations. You sound like you have that Arrogant Cop Syndrome which will eventually cause your ego to boil over like Urkel in the OP and we might be discussing your tape soon...

SigFTW
01-22-2013, 07:49
I'm LE and usually pro-LE, but this cop did not handle this well at all.. We don't know what happened before, during the stop, (furtive movements etc..) and only see a short clip.

However, in this day and age everyone has a CCL, and as an officer you should expect to encounter CCL holders from time to time. I would have drawn too, and created some distance, but wouldn't have shouted obscenities, nor put the guy on the ground, unless he was belligerent.

I'd have put him in a position of compliance, with his hands behind his head and removed the gun from the holster with my off hand..

Then, I'd have given him a short but professional lecture about my safety, his and the concept of staying in your vehicle, letting the officer know you are armed as a courtesy and for his safety as well, whether or not the law says you have to..

In the great state of Texas you are required to inform the police officer that you are carrying and provide proof of your CHL.

It's not the CHL holders you need to worry about.:whistling:

tnedator
01-22-2013, 08:00
I think the officer handled it poorly, but I think far too many people in this thread are just automatically giving the guy in the van a pass. Between hopping out of the van. Not having a proper concealment garment/setup. Flinging his hands around in a rapid, nervous fashion (flipping and fumbling with his wallet). There was plenty there to make the officer nervous when he then sees a gun on a guy that didn't inform him of it.

I have no problem with the officer using crude language. At times, loud, aggressive language may be what is needed to get compliance and avoid a bigger problem. The I'll shoot you in the back statement doesn't sit well with me.

I would have been pretty pissed if the officer was pointing a gun at me (not as upset if he drew and was at the low ready or something like that).

However, I have trouble getting past the fact that this whole incident is the result of the CCL holder and his actions.

In the 15 or so years I've had a CCL, I have not been stopped. However, I have thought it through a few times, and if I am ever pulled over, my plan would be to have my license and permit out, in my fingers, with my hands on the wheel by the time the officer gets to my vehicle. After giving him both, I would inform him where my gun is (whether in Arkansas, or traveling to states where you don't have a duty to inform). If I then had to get anything else for him, I would let him know what I was doing first.

You have to understand that these officers approaching vehicles realize that there is a chance that they will be shot at. They have to be careful and being "nervous" is understandable, because any stop could mean an armed confrontation, even if the VAST majority don't go that way.

As law abiding citizens and responsible gun owners, we should be doing everything we can to make sure we don't create a situation where an officer fears for his life, and more importantly, we should realize that every encounter with an officer, while we are carrying concealed, is a chance to make a good or bad impression on law enforcement. You are representing all of us (CCL holders) every time you have contact with law enforcement, and it's in all of our best interests to make those encounters comfortable and positive.

Bruce M
01-22-2013, 11:52
...
Lastly, I really think you might need to attend some retraining on the subject...
...
I don't suppose you have any actual training as a law enforcement officer regarding use of force; if you do please tell us of your training. Otherwise we will take your opinion as just that.

KalashniKEV
01-22-2013, 12:08
Otherwise we will take your opinion as just that.

It is my opinion.

An officer who is uncomfortable executing a simple traffic stop, performing his basic duties, or who is threatened or panicked by meeting the Citizen eyeball-to-eyeball on equal ground is a danger to himself and others, and might want to consider a different line of work.

Bruce M
01-22-2013, 12:41
As long as you are aware that your opinion may not be the same as the people who hire, train and certify officers and the people who develop use of force policies based on various considerations including laws, court decisions, and dissecting hundreds of previous uses of force.

James Dean
01-22-2013, 12:56
This is what I do when I get stopped. I soon as I see the lights on I pull over. I don't move around in the car I just sit there with my hands on the wheel, until the officer tells me what his problem is. Than I move slow and get my paperwork. I've met some real nice guys and I've met some jerks. Its a roll of the dice. I just have it in my head he's in charge until he tells me have a nice day. Its really a simple concept. I wouldn't want to be a cop and walk up to a car with a guy moving around or jumping out and moving around.

Another time I driving one of my fathers trailers that had a few lights out on it. Around 3 AM I got stopped. I did what I always do. The cop walked up told me what the problem was and wanted to see my DL license. I told him it was in my back pocket but I also have a pair of vise grips back there I have to take out first and I don't want him to think its a gun an shoot me. He smiled and said he doesn't want to have to think that either, to just do it slow. So I did. He than looked over my paperwork and said tell your dad to get the lights fixed. I put myself in there shoes.

jhooten
01-22-2013, 13:04
Women are "virtually almost never" agressors with LE, are handled differently,

Don't bet your life on it.

cowboy1964
01-22-2013, 16:15
You never get out of the vehicle unless asked. That was mistake #1.

The Fed
01-22-2013, 16:38
I'll watch the video on my PC later but I would always notify if it was a traffic stop.

tnedator
01-22-2013, 17:53
This is what I do when I get stopped. I soon as I see the lights on I pull over. I don't move around in the car I just sit there with my hands on the wheel, until the officer tells me what his problem is. Than I move slow and get my paperwork. I've met some real nice guys and I've met some jerks. Its a roll of the dice. I just have it in my head he's in charge until he tells me have a nice day. Its really a simple concept. I wouldn't want to be a cop and walk up to a car with a guy moving around or jumping out and moving around.

Another time I driving one of my fathers trailers that had a few lights out on it. Around 3 AM I got stopped. I did what I always do. The cop walked up told me what the problem was and wanted to see my DL license. I told him it was in my back pocket but I also have a pair of vise grips back there I have to take out first and I don't want him to think its a gun an shoot me. He smiled and said he doesn't want to have to think that either, to just do it slow. So I did. He than looked over my paperwork and said tell your dad to get the lights fixed. I put myself in there shoes.

Ya, seems like common sense, doesn't it?

You final sentence is a good one and if people did that, there would be a little less outrage in this thread and problems with traffic stops.

257 roberts
01-22-2013, 18:36
Ya, seems like common sense, doesn't it?

You final sentence is a good one and if people did that, there would be a little less outrage in this thread and problems with traffic stops.
+1 common sense..not too common anymore

The Fed
01-22-2013, 18:48
I disagree with the 'Must Inform' sentiment, but absolutely the guy should NOT have exited his vehicle until asked to do so.

My policy is: My lawfully concealed weapon is none of the officer's business until he asks me whether I have a firearm in the vehicle, or he asks me to step out, at which point I will immediately volunteer that I have a gun and a permit on my person.

Let me know how that works out for you in a Tampa Bay county if you're stopped and the deputy asks you if you have any weapons in the car.

tnedator
01-22-2013, 19:39
Let me know how that works out for you in a Tampa Bay county if you're stopped and the deputy asks you if you have any weapons in the car.

Meaning? I have a relative that recently moved to the TB area and so at times, I will be in the area.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

LAWDOGKMS
01-22-2013, 20:51
Being a Nervous Nellie in uniform and constantly in fear for your life does not grant the officer extended powers to shoot people who are not performing a hostile act.

Yeah, yeah... I know, go home at the end of the shift, hard work, dangers of speeding motorists...

Nothing I have said in this thread is "anti-police." Why is the LEO contingent on here so hyper-sensitive? We're discussing a video.

Lastly, I really think you might need to attend some retraining on the subject... or maybe take a break to cool off from all your high-threat-dope-interdiction-operations. You sound like you have that Arrogant Cop Syndrome which will eventually cause your ego to boil over like Urkel in the OP and we might be discussing your tape soon...

"Nervous Nellie" huh? That's real cute:upeyes:

I already mentioned that the officer could have handled this with more professionalism (language mainly), but for some reason he felt he was in danger (some nervous body language from the driver perhaps) that caused him to take the action he did..

Those that do this for a living, know that a seemingly innocuous encounter can quickly turn into this:

http://youtu.be/c3VlMWTJ9GY

Or this:

http://youtu.be/ZzcYdg786sc

Or this:

http://youtu.be/ikDsWtNQzcg

Or this:

http://youtu.be/_IIt4mwFe04

So..anyone playing-secret with their CCW which we all agree they have the right to carry for personal protection, is a potential-threat, because good people with common-sense don't try to hide the fact or play dumb about the fact they are carrying..

I would love to know what you do for a living that makes you think your opinion on this topic has any logic to it, so please tell..?

It's obvious to me and others on this board that you really don't have a grip on reality.

Until you've done the job, you have no place to to lecture those who have.

So keep pecking away at your keyboard with your nonsensical monday morning quarterbacking about how LE professionals do their jobs if it makes you feel better, because the rest of can see the naievety and ignorance in your posts..

GunHo198
01-23-2013, 00:59
It is my opinion.

An officer who is uncomfortable executing a simple traffic stop, performing his basic duties, or who is threatened or panicked by meeting the Citizen eyeball-to-eyeball on equal ground is a danger to himself and others, and might want to consider a different line of work.

I agree. I have a lot of friends in law enforcement, and I meet and deal with cops every day. If they expect me to notify them that im carrying every time I approach a cop. It's going to be a looooong year for all of us. Sometimes during a stop I let the officer no I'm carrying, if he's a jack wagon then I'm not bringing the subject up unless asked.

Don't get all butt hurt about it. It's Florida and we have over a million CCW holders here. As a cop you need to assume everyone here has one. The cop in the video could and probably should have asked at the beginning of the stop, instead of getting his panties in a wad. Just because your a cop doesnt mean you know the Law. Thats what that REALLY thick book in the trunk of the patrol car is for. His Sargent should have come to the scene and clarified this. But evidently if so then Citrus county hasnt updated there books. Hope Citrus county pays out some good cash. I drive through there every now and then, and I would feel better knowing they got educated through this fiasco.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Bill Lumberg
01-23-2013, 07:06
CCW'er was an idiot. LE was on point, but could've done a lot less cursing.

Bruce M
01-23-2013, 07:32
... His Sargent should have come to the scene and clarified this. .... Hope Citrus county pays out some good cash. ...

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)


How much cash do you think they are going to have to pay out? Oh and if you are discussing not only what road officers' responsibilities are but also the responsibilities of road supervisors you might have slightly more credibility by spelling the rank correctly...

Spiffums
01-23-2013, 07:41
This went longer here than in GNG.

johns961
01-23-2013, 07:50
Let me know how that works out for you in a Tampa Bay county if you're stopped and the deputy asks you if you have any weapons in the car.

I am in Tampa. Citrus Park area.
Worked out good for me. He saw my c.c.w. anyway when I opened my wallet for my d.l. But, I was siting in my vehicle with my set belt strapped on. Hands on the steering wheel fingers upward. And was polite and cooperative. Through the interview he asked if I had ant weapons in the car. Not much was said. He let me go. Agency was hills borough county sheriff. A member of the street crime unit. He did not like the way I changed lanes and pulled me over.

My rule is stay in the car. Seat belt on. Hands in plain sight. Smile and be cooperative. Works for me everytime. Well. Once every five to ten years when I get pulled over anyway.

John.

maxpower220
01-23-2013, 08:56
Driver gets out of van. While most people don't and probably shouldn't, the Cop doesn't say anything to the driver about that as it happens. In fact, the officer was very "normal" for the first part of the video. To later bring that up (getting out of van) is very stupid. If you didn't want him out, tell him to get in.

Unless I missed it, after putting the driver on the ground and cuffing, the officer never removed the gun. The officer never removed the threat. I'm not sure how or why he was trained, but removing the threat to your safety should be first.

Foul language is not needed, especially when the driver is complying with your requests.

In FL, police may be wearing just about anything. It really is a problem IMO. I can't think a of good reason for police not to wear a uniform.

Ruble Noon
01-23-2013, 09:21
The officer may have been a little over the top in his reaction, and he definitely should not have arrested the driver, but I say the lion's share of stupidity in this incident falls on the driver. I can absolutely see how that might have looked to the officer like he was going for a gun.

You must have watched a different video. The gun is on the hip, the guy's arms are in the van when officer pansy ass threatens to shoot the guy in the "****ing back."

tnedator
01-23-2013, 10:13
You must have watched a different video. The gun is on the hip, the guy's arms are in the van when officer pansy ass threatens to shoot the guy in the "****ing back."

Watch it again, this time sober.

GunHo198
01-23-2013, 11:40
How much cash do you think they are going to have to pay out? Oh and if you are discussing not only what road officers' responsibilities are but also the responsibilities of road supervisors you might have slightly more credibility by spelling the rank correctly...

Ahhhh, the Grammar Police. What's the charge for that?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

KalashniKEV
01-23-2013, 13:04
Those that do this for a living, know that a seemingly innocuous encounter can quickly turn into this:

Or this:

Or this:

Or this:



OK, now divide that by the number of people who get pulled over for expired tags, speeding, seat belts, and cell phones.

The officer on the tape is terrified to do his job. He should be transferred to desk duty or horse grooming until he is more qualified.

So..anyone playing-secret with their CCW...

I don't "play secret" with my CCW any more than I "play secret" with what I had for lunch that day in a traffic stop. I live in a state where there is no duty to inform, and I don't. It is also wise to assume that everyone is armed and act accordingly.


I would love to know what you do for a living that makes you think your opinion on this topic has any logic to it, so please tell..?

I work in the Defense Industry in a role that does not involve making traffic stops.

This is a discussion board though, so when you come on here, be prepared for discussion. (just as in a traffic stop you should be prepared for the driver or vehicle occupants to be legally armed)

You really sound like one of those big ego, chip-on-the-shoulder cops with what you've posted in this thread. I hope you can get the help you need to find calm (do you have someone to talk to?), or find a line of work that makes you truly happy.

GunHo198
01-23-2013, 13:20
The way the guy was dressed was fine for concealed here in Florida. It's hot here. Today it's hot. So seeing someone with a long sleeved shirt on during the day, even in January here in Florida is a sign that he's probably carrying. Just because at some point when he bends over you get a flash of his piece doesn't make it illegal in this state. The law was changed to protect those with CCP for this reason. If this guy didn't have a CCP he would have been charged with carrying a CONCEALED weapon.

Maybe the officer is a good cop just having a bad day and made a bad choice. It happens. But this guy was within the Florida law and wrongly charged, and now because the officer made a bad choice this guy had to post bail and pay an attorney. It will most likely be tossed out of court but this guy is still going to fork out some dough. The officer deserves a written reprimand at the least.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

tnedator
01-23-2013, 13:42
The way the guy was dressed was fine for concealed here in Florida. It's hot here. Today it's hot. So seeing someone with a long sleeved shirt on during the day, even in January here in Florida is a sign that he's probably carrying. Just because at some point when he bends over you get a flash of his piece doesn't make it illegal in this state. The law was changed to protect those with CCP for this reason. If this guy didn't have a CCP he would have been charged with carrying a CONCEALED weapon.

Maybe the officer is a good cop just having a bad day and made a bad choice. It happens. But this guy was within the Florida law and wrongly charged, and now because the officer made a bad choice this guy had to post bail and pay an attorney. It will most likely be tossed out of court but this guy is still going to fork out some dough. The officer deserves a written reprimand at the least.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

His concealment garment would have been much more appropriate with an IWB. Also, it wasn't just the concealment, it was all the spastic movements, which made him appear to either be under the influence or very nervous.

GunHo198
01-23-2013, 14:57
His concealment garment would have been much more appropriate with an IWB. Also, it wasn't just the concealment, it was all the spastic movements, which made him appear to either be under the influence or very nervous.

But in not knowing the individual, how can we say this isn't normal for him? Was he charged with intoxication? Me personally, when I realized I had to reach back into my van for my Insurance or Id, I would then have notified the officer that I have a CCP and I'm carrying. But that's me, and I've had an Officer pointing a gun at me before, and his gun was extremely shaking. No need to get shot by a nervous cop.

All in all. This could have gone better by both sides acting more professional. The guy didn't need to go to Jail. The officer upon hearing I have a permit, could have educated the guy for future references of how to make a casual traffic stop go easier.

Vetter
01-23-2013, 15:28
I have had a CC permit since the mid 70's and not been stopped while armed. I have rehearsed the stop enough that all should go smooth. Hands on the wheel, officer, paperwork in my right back pocket, leagally carried weapon on my right hip. How would you like me to proceed? I expect he would know the best way to insure both his and my safety. Niether of us are bad guys but he doesn't know that to be fact. 100% coperation on my part will probably make a "warning" the end result instead of a ticket.

GunHo198
01-23-2013, 15:40
Just got to see the video on my Laptop at full screen. His shirt looks long enough to hide the weapon, but his pants are hanging so low that the holster is almost to his thigh. It's pretty evident when he brings his arms halfway up that the holster is exposed. Is it illegal in Florida? No, but he's going to learn about how he dresses in the future. When he got out of the Van you can see him making sure his shirt is pulled down, and he does that several times. He should have made sure his pants were up as well. :dunno:

Scrappy
01-23-2013, 15:53
Cop was an ******* like most of them are. He cursed and threaten to shoot the man in the back! He will most likely get sued over this. He should be suspended without pay for awhile!
Drivers mistake was only getting out of the van, but maybe cop asked him to?
Anyway another cop abusing his power, who would of thought. :upeyes:
If that officer was so worried he would of secured that weapon after he cuffed him, plain and simple!

brboyer
01-23-2013, 16:05
Let me know how that works out for you in a Tampa Bay county if you're stopped and the deputy asks you if you have any weapons in the car.

I've volunteered the presence of a firearm a couple times in the past, kept my mouth shut a couple times, and lied about it a few more. I'm still happily exceeding the speed limit every day (my one vice) and have no arrest record and only two or three tickets since I started driving almost 40 years ago. Having hada gun in the vehicle or on my person for over 30 of those.

I must be doing something right! :tongueout:

D4RWlN
01-23-2013, 17:12
While it wasn't real bright for the driver to get out of the vehicle, that cop is a complete D-bag. I hope he gets in some sh#% over this. "I'll shoot you in the f$%&ing back" That's classy.

D4RWlN
01-23-2013, 17:38
For anyone saying it common sense to tell an LEO(or anyone else for that matter) that you have a CCW, you are smoking rocks. Unless it's required by law, it's just common COURTESY! That's their right to chose to disclose the fact or not. Hell, in some states you can refuse to give LEO your ID if they will not acknowledge that you actually broke the law! It is NOT common sense to give up your rights. It is your right to do so.(depending on laws)

Personally, when I get pulled over, I hand them a stack of paper. My ID, proof of insurance, registration, and CCW permit. I do this for a couple reasons. 1. In my experiences most LEOs are good people and appreciate courtesy just like anyone else. 2. I travel around a bit to different states and such. It's easier for me to just remember if the state has reciprocity with my state and not what is required to be shown when pulled over. It saves us both time on the traffic stop if the officer doesn't have to keep asking for different pieces of info that I have to then look for. 3. I have shot the S%% with many cops that have pulled me over. Usually they are curious what kind of firearm I was carrying. It's always lightened the mood. At least in the southern states.