Knoxville Tn. switches from Glock to Sig [Archive] - Glock Talk

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SJ 40
01-23-2013, 14:09
The Knoxville Police Department will begin a transition from a .40-caliber Glock to a .45-caliber Sig Sauer handgun after City Council approved the switch Tuesday night.

At $750 each, the .45-caliber Sig Sauer is more expensive than the $600 .40-caliber Glock. But Rausch noted the Glock has a life of four years while the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/jan/23/kpd-switching-to-higher-caliber-service-weapons/

I seem to get more than four years service from my G 22's.
Granted they do not see the rigors of duty that KPD's G 22's may.

If one assumes that maybe the KPD qualifies twice a year,an use in the line of duty and some officers may actually enjoy shooting. I still can't imagine that they are trashed in four years.

I know that I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of a minimum of 8000 rds. per year in at least two of my Glocks.
To me they are in fine shape and not in need of replacement but maybe I'm missing something like taxpayers funds.
SJ 40

Spartacus100
01-23-2013, 14:12
Looks like more good quality G22's are about to hit the resellers and thats good for us. I like to pick up police buy back Glocks. Little use, little wear, good price.

Scrappy
01-23-2013, 14:13
Wow, someone tell my Glocks that they have expired!!
Waste of tax dollars for them to switch, they too will switch back one day,lol.

ScottC.
01-23-2013, 14:26
How are they coming up with a life span of 4 years with as little use as they get. Are they worried about holster wear ?

lyodbraun
01-23-2013, 14:44
I just dont get it LOL, prob some top brass that likes the looks of the Sig or either has one that he uses outside of work and been talking it up all the time about how much better it is going to be LOL... stupid idea, and is a waste of money....

SJ 40
01-23-2013, 15:23
I just dont get it LOL, prob some top brass that likes the looks of the Sig or either has one that he uses outside of work and been talking it up all the time about how much better it is going to be LOL... stupid idea, and is a waste of money....Agreed Good G 22's .
Actually the of kick backs,payoffs is what one might assume until one does the math.
Assuming the numbers in the article are correct 13500.00 divided by 225 Sigs works out to 60.00 per new Sig. SJ 40

Scrappy
01-23-2013, 15:33
Going down to 8 rds? I would not do that. What 45 model? The P220? Also where are all the guns and ammo going, I could use some?

F106 Fan
01-23-2013, 15:40
There's probably a slipped decimal point in that $13,500. Something like $135,000 makes sense given the $750 unit cost minus the trade-in value.

They are also trading in 300,000 rounds of ammo and, at the moment, that is worth a LOT OF MONEY. Of course, they still need to buy .45 ACP and the article stated that it would be custom ammo. I wonder why?

Changing to the all steel Sig P220 will make the Sig .45 a lot more comfortable to shoot than the Glock .40. It will be heavier to carry but a lot of time is spent sitting down.

Around here, both the local PD and SO shoot Sigs and these were selected after the PD SWAT team did some exhaustive comparisons. Not every comparison results in an order for Glock.

Richard

Bruce M
01-23-2013, 16:27
Are they going with an all (stainless) steel P220 or an aluminum frame version?

And the price of the Glock should be less than 398; I am sure whoever sells them will get more than the purchase price for them.

JBP55
01-23-2013, 16:46
The Glocks cost them less than $400 each, not $600. The Glock wearing out in 4 years is as big a joke as the Sig outlasting a Glock. The Glocks probably have less than 2,000 rounds fired per gun.

Morris
01-23-2013, 17:08
When you see press blurbs like this, understand that there is some "bullfoonery" added in. Armorer's know the real reasons by all sort of things get sent up the chain to rationalize a change. Note that it made no mention of the increase in armorer time for repairs and maintenance as well as increased costs for parts (a potentially considerable cost for an agency that size).

That being said, a local agency here outfitted their SWAT team members with P226 .40 TACOPS. Their people felt it best. Sig Sauer is still a player in the LE market.

MIWildcat
01-23-2013, 18:49
I see nothing wrong with the change. It appears they were testing .45's and they preferred the SIG over the Glock. Nothing wrong with that, the P220 is a great gun, IMO. However, this said 8 rounds so it may be a 1911.

Scrappy
01-23-2013, 18:56
Me I would not want to carry the Big Sig with DA/SA and only 8 rds as a PO!
The Glock 21 would of been much better choice for 45 with 13 rd mags!

MIWildcat
01-23-2013, 19:02
Actually, looking closer, it was the P220. It is a great gun and battle tested. I prefer 9mm but I've scoped out a P220 I want to buy, sweet gun.

JBP55
01-23-2013, 19:03
Going from a light pistol and carrying two extra magazines for a total of 46 rounds to a heavy pistol and carrying four extra magazines for a total of 41 rounds is a step backwards for a LEA.
The P220 is a good pistol that shoots well.

bear62
01-23-2013, 19:11
Guess my Glocks are a lot better made than KPD Glocks....... They last a lot longer than 4 years and probably get shot a lot more too. The is not a knock at Sig........

SJ 40
01-23-2013, 21:01
Guess my Glocks are a lot better made than KPD Glocks....... They last a lot longer than 4 years and probably get shot a lot more too. The is not a knock at Sig........Agree not to knock the Sig. That said the Glock 22's I own seem somehow to best there worn out G 22's,I some how get more that four years to one. Fact is I have yet begun to wear out my Glock's but I keep trying. SJ 40

AustinTx
01-23-2013, 21:08
At $750 each, the .45-caliber Sig Sauer is more expensive than the $600 .40-caliber Glock. But Rausch noted the Glock has a life of four years while the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.
SJ 40

That is just plain ole' stupid or normal political logic.

Looks like they could get a better price than $600, for a Glock. I ain't any PD and I can find them cheaper than $600.

TomAiello
01-23-2013, 21:21
Anyone know who will end up reselling them? I could use a couple G22's.

dkf
01-23-2013, 21:29
The article and the comments are pretty comical. Hey whatever blows their skirt up I guess. The locals to that PD get to foot the large bill.

Morris
01-23-2013, 22:20
The Sig P220 is a good handgun. However, agency heads often forget the back side costs of a firearms program: ammunition, replacement parts and maintenance costs. The Sig is an excellent weapon and I liked mine. But without a doubt, it needed more maintenance. Now, tack on armorer repairs and parts and your costs go up.

Presumably, Sig will also pay for new holsters and magazine pouches. Sig will also cover additional training time costs of getting officers trained from the Glock system to remembering to decock. Those are often the hidden costs agencies do not address as part of a package.

Rausch said the .45-caliber pistols will provide more stopping power. The chief said hollow-point, 230-grain ammunition for the .45-caliber weapons will be made special for the Police Department.

Well, some rangemaster sold the brass a bill of goods for that foolishness. "Stopping power" is wholly dependent on the threat receiving the rounds and the person firing, not the actual bullet itself. Further, this nonsense of a life span based upon years is nonsense. It's always been about a mean round count on a frame. Both Glock and Sig have a similar round count for replacement on their .40 frames.

I wish them the best in their transition but I sincerely doubt the $13K figure they put out there. Real dollar amounts will be higher. The flip side is lightly used G22s (likely Gen 3s) coming from a distributor soon.

I do suspect that at some point, the FIs and rangemasters will have to conceed that the P220 does not fit every hand and there will be alternates provided under ergonomics rules. Small hands have a challenge with the P220.

desertexplore
01-23-2013, 22:27
I dont get it. Someone had to blow someone to get that contract. The G22 is a fine pistol with a LONG service life. And why leave the 40 cal platform??? Something aint right.

MIWildcat
01-23-2013, 23:03
I dont get it. Someone had to blow someone to get that contract. The G22 is a fine pistol with a LONG service life. And why leave the 40 cal platform??? Something aint right.

I think Glocks are great weapons and I also think the same of SIG's. However, we must take note that organizations make decisions based on personal preferences. While I own both SIG's and Glocks, my personal preference as an officer would be my SIG. Since I'm on a Glock forum, I'm certain 95% of the people here would choose Glock.

I am a bit surprised at the number of agencies moving over to 45's, but I'm guessing they all seem to buy into a bigger is better philosophy (which is why so many moved to .40). I'd also like to know what the service life of their Glocks actually were.

Now, knowing quite a few women LEO's, I've heard a lot of complaints from those shooting a .40 compared to a .45 due to inability to get back on target quickly. While the .45 does have some flip, it doesn't flip the same way a .40 does.

But worry not, fellow Glockphiles, Glock isn't going anywhere in the LEO world and they will stay strong and hold many more contracts. :supergrin:

F106 Fan
01-24-2013, 00:14
"Worn out" can mean something as simple as the night sights are growing dim and it's time to either replace the sights or replace the guns. Sometimes the cost of a new gun minus a trade-in can compare favorably to replacing night sights if other maintenance costs increase over time in the field. Things like recoil springs, magazine springs plus other routine items increase the cost of owning and maintaining an aging weapon.

The department got 10+ years out of the Glocks and the night sights can be presumed to be at end-of-life.

Richard

F106 Fan
01-24-2013, 00:22
I do suspect that at some point, the FIs and rangemasters will have to conceed that the P220 does not fit every hand and there will be alternates provided under ergonomics rules. Small hands have a challenge with the P220.

As compared to gripping a Glock which can best be described as grabbing a 2x4?

Maybe they'll allow officers the choice of using a P229 Elite (.40 S&W) which is a lot friendlier for people with smaller hands.

Richard

wacopolumbo
01-24-2013, 02:49
We had a local PD go to DAK P220s a couple years ago and the officers like them. The detectives carry the P220 Compact. Hey, whatever floats their boat. There's a lot that goes into a department choosing a firearm that has nothing to do with the actual firearm. Who knows, maybe Glock did them wrong somehow/sometime.

It's interesting to see some departments move away from the Glock 22. A lot of them that switch go to the 17 or another platform all together.

Hand Grenade
01-24-2013, 02:54
Someone call the cops, looks like KPD was robbed! Some law enforcement dealer is laughing his way to the bank alright. Who the heck picked an inferior weapon with a such a high bore axis and a finish that needs to be sprayed with rust-o-leum everyday.

Bruce M
01-24-2013, 05:30
Sometimes it is amazingly easy to determine when someone is repeating stuff they have read but have little experience with multiples of a specific gun.

billkill
01-24-2013, 05:55
"Worn out" can mean something as simple as the night sights are growing dim and it's time to either replace the sights or replace the guns. Sometimes the cost of a new gun minus a trade-in can compare favorably to replacing night sights if other maintenance costs increase over time in the field. Things like recoil springs, magazine springs plus other routine items increase the cost of owning and maintaining an aging weapon.

The department got 10+ years out of the Glocks and the night sights can be presumed to be at end-of-life.

Richard
My G22 was a police trade-in and this was the case, dim night sights and some holster wear. Replaced the sights and the gun runs 100%

Scrappy
01-24-2013, 06:14
I think Glocks are great weapons and I also think the same of SIG's. However, we must take note that organizations make decisions based on personal preferences. While I own both SIG's and Glocks, my personal preference as an officer would be my SIG. Since I'm on a Glock forum, I'm certain 95% of the people here would choose Glock.

I am a bit surprised at the number of agencies moving over to 45's, but I'm guessing they all seem to buy into a bigger is better philosophy (which is why so many moved to .40). I'd also like to know what the service life of their Glocks actually were.

Now, knowing quite a few women LEO's, I've heard a lot of complaints from those shooting a .40 compared to a .45 due to inability to get back on target quickly. While the .45 does have some flip, it doesn't flip the same way a .40 does.

But worry not, fellow Glockphiles, Glock isn't going anywhere in the LEO world and they will stay strong and hold many more contracts. :supergrin:

Can I ask why you would want to carry a DA/SA?
Would you want only 8 rds?
I love SIGS too, but not for carry gun. I would not want 8 rds as a PO. Also the DA/SA over the constant same trigger pull all the time with Glock. The G21 would of been a much better choice if they wanted to go 45 route. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot here!

9mmpara
01-24-2013, 06:36
wonder if it has to do with the round count,15 rd mags or 8rd mags.but I carried my G22 for 9 years we went to G22gen4 last year and I bought my G22 gen 3 so it is way past 4 years and still doing great.that was an odd part of the story.

LampShadeActual
01-24-2013, 06:51
Someone got a big gratuity, got some free guns, or an idiot was involved in the selection.

I, myself, and me, no hearsay, personally carried a SIG P220 "American" from 1991-97. And a Glock M22 after that until retirement some years later.

Four years at a usual cop rate of 100 rounds per year. Total BullShiest. The Glocks don't even start to need new springs until 5-10,000 rounds. There is some lies being told here.

The SIG eventually went from 7 to 8 round magazines. The Glock was always 15.

The SIG was nice to carry and was very accurate benched making 5 shot 1" groups at 25 yards sometimes. It was controllable off hand. It was light, had Trijicon nitesights, and a nice single action trigger pull. But it was a son of ***** to shoot with the light aluminum frame and the tall, web of thumb/first finger indexing point to bore line. The bore line was so high above your hand and it rocked the muzzle up so much that it beat you to death on training days of 300-400 rounds.

The M22 and alternative M23 of the agency was liked by everyone not a complete sissy. The girls, the girliemen, the guys, and the boomers could all shoot the Glock's way better than the SIG and S&W autos previously used. And way-way better than the revolvers. 300-400 rounds of .40 in the Glocks did not beat you up by the end of the day.

I was so glad to not have to shoot that SIG anymore.

Who ever picked the P220 over the Glock got a big gratuity or some free guns, has never shot both for a whole day, or is an idiot.

DaBurna
01-24-2013, 07:43
Is it possible that they are switching to the new P227 in .45ACP??
This is interesting since the TN DOT is issued G31's as a duty weapon if I recall. Seems to me most major cities in a given state mirror what the larger State Agency carries.....

bstubblefield
01-24-2013, 07:50
...the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.

I find that very interesting. My wife is an LEO at one of our suburban PDs. They replaced their last round of Sigs after 3 years. When they asked all the officers what they wanted as replacements, the majority wanted 1911s. The department bought another round of Sigs. Ah, logical government at work there.

lilmule
01-24-2013, 08:05
Could also be the penetration of a 45 versus a 40,less background sprayed.
I like my 45 acp,have shot a 40 as well 40 has more of a muzzle rise and 45 more push.

akapennypincher
01-24-2013, 08:20
The Knoxville Police Department will begin a transition from a .40-caliber Glock to a .45-caliber Sig Sauer handgun after City Council approved the switch Tuesday night.

At $750 each, the .45-caliber Sig Sauer is more expensive than the $600 .40-caliber Glock. But Rausch noted the Glock has a life of four years while the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/jan/23/kpd-switching-to-higher-caliber-service-weapons/

I seem to get more than four years service from my G 22's.
Granted they do not see the rigors of duty that KPD's G 22's may.

If one assumes that maybe the KPD qualifies twice a year,an use in the line of duty and some officers may actually enjoy shooting. I still can't imagine that they are trashed in four years.

I know that I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of a minimum of 8000 rds. per year in at least two of my Glocks.
To me they are in fine shape and not in need of replacement but maybe I'm missing something like taxpayers funds.
SJ 40

Really who believes, Rausch noted the Glock has a life of four years while the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.

Glocks:tongueout: last more than 4 years, even if you leave em in a Hot Patrol Car....

wacopolumbo
01-24-2013, 08:28
Funny they say that the Glock has a 4 year life-cylce, yet they carried them for 10 years.

Not to start a fire here, but I would think the 45 GAP G37 could have been an option. Same grip as their G22s with 45 size rounds coming out. Plus they'd have 10 round mags instead of 8.

devildog66
01-24-2013, 08:57
The cost per pistol is not just the cost of actual weapon. There is a host of contractual support items within that cost such as training and maintenance. Perhaps an apt comparison would be the cost of a TV that came with extended warranty service, delivery, set-up, etc.

cowboy1964
01-24-2013, 09:17
This is stupid (IMO).

Officers will have to carry five magazines for the .45-caliber guns.

So all in all they will probably be carrying about a pound more on their belt compared to what they had with the G22. Hey, whatever.

moonwilson
01-24-2013, 09:44
The SIG P220 is an extremely fine weapon. I own two, and have done some of my best shooting with them. They are as accurate as a highly-tuned, custom 1911 right out of the box, and are 100% reliable. I don't think Knoxville's finest will be undergunned in any way, shape or form carrying those. They're more powerful, more accurate, look and feel much nicer than a G22.

But G22s are nothing to sneeze at. Switching to SIGs is totally unnecessary. That money would be much better spent on a cool practice range or something.

MIWildcat
01-24-2013, 11:26
Can I ask why you would want to carry a DA/SA?
Would you want only 8 rds?
I love SIGS too, but not for carry gun. I would not want 8 rds as a PO. Also the DA/SA over the constant same trigger pull all the time with Glock. The G21 would of been a much better choice if they wanted to go 45 route. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot here!

DA/SA is not a problem if you properly train for the DA. I find it is more than safe enough to carry, as all the guns I carry I prefer to not have manual safeties. There should be no excuse for the first DA pull if you spend a little bit of time and train for it. Hell, the Navy Seals prefer to carry the P226, so take that for what it's worth.

I would prefer to have more than 8 rounds and my preference would be for a P226 over the P220. However, it is battle tested and a solid go to war gun. However, based on data I saw not that long ago, I think the average shooting only involves 3 rounds (unless you're NYPD, then it involves unloading all of your rounds with a crappy DAO trigger, hitting a bunch of civilians).

MIWildcat
01-24-2013, 11:32
One other thought I had today, how much of this has to do with the recent problems Glock has had with changing a perfect design to the Gen 3/4 that have issues with BTF? After shooting my Gen 3 for a while now (I've always worn a hat, so never noticed prior) but I do get BTF. It always hits my hat, so I haven't really had an issue.

Also, I think it is sad that some of these PD's only need 100 rounds a year. I think the really good PD's put a lot more rounds down range in training, but not every PD is that good.

Oh well, I'm guessing this will be a closely monitored situation and I'm certain we'll know if this was a good choice 5 years down the line.

attrapereves
01-24-2013, 11:52
They sure are taking a loss in capacity. From 15 rounds down to 8. Also, the Sig is a heavy gun. I feel sorry for those having to carry it.

G26S239
01-24-2013, 11:58
They sure are taking a loss in capacity. From 15 rounds down to 8. Also, the Sig is a heavy gun. I feel sorry for those having to carry it.

30.4 ounces empty with mag inserted is not heavy.

JRWnTN
01-24-2013, 15:20
KPD's Special Operations Squad, and some other officers, are carrying SIG 1911s.

SIG v. Glock v. HK v. M&P comes down to the personal perferences of the decision makers, with their experiences, bias, etc. Whatever the final decision, some are going to complain because their favorite pistol wasn't choosen. The decision should involve the reliability of the pistol, maintenance, affordability of ammunition and ease of training.

Morris
01-24-2013, 16:33
SIG v. Glock v. HK v. M&P comes down to the personal perferences of the decision makers, with their experiences, bias, etc. Whatever the final decision, some are going to complain because their favorite pistol wasn't choosen. The decision should involve the reliability of the pistol, maintenance, affordability of ammunition and ease of training.

It should factor into the decision making process but often isn't. But a spot on post from practical experience.

SCmasterblaster
01-24-2013, 16:54
It looks like Knoxville wanted a handgun where bullet expansion isn't so important.

F106 Fan
01-24-2013, 18:49
KPD's Special Operations Squad, and some other officers, are carrying SIG 1911s.


I have one of those and it has rapidly become my favorite handgun. It is magnificent.

Richard

Morris
01-24-2013, 21:11
My point to this post is that the SIG is a fine weapon, no doubt. I owned several over the years and my first duty pistol was a P226 9mm.

That being said, what is being presented to the press and the city council is pure hokum. You have brass who like Sigs, who found a way to make the transition. More power to them. But don't believe for a minute it was about longer life spans or other nonsense. The department just went a different direction. And I'll wager here that within seven years, they will be moving to something else.

ChiTownPicaro
01-25-2013, 02:54
My guess is politics. I do like Sigs but I am a Glock man myself.

cowboy1964
01-25-2013, 06:37
30.4 ounces empty with mag inserted is not heavy.

A fully loaded G22 is only about 32 ounces (I don't recall exactly). Then the additional weight of 5 magazines versus 2. You're easily talking a pound or more over the G22.

dpadams6
01-25-2013, 07:19
Me I would not want to carry the Big Sig with DA/SA and only 8 rds as a PO!
The Glock 21 would of been much better choice for 45 with 13 rd mags!

There's no way smaller officers and females could get a full secure grip on a 21. I don't think it would be practical for a pd

JBP55
01-25-2013, 08:01
30.4 ounces empty with mag inserted is not heavy.


Have you ever seen a LEO carry a empty pistol? :wow:

District18
01-25-2013, 10:26
At $750 each, the .45-caliber Sig Sauer is more expensive than the $600 .40-caliber Glock. But Rausch noted the Glock has a life of four years while the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.





4 years? My department uses glocks until they turn in to dust. There's no trade in to keep weapons fresh. That would cost money.

SGT278ACR
01-25-2013, 10:40
I got my 2nd gen G22 used as a Police department trade in well over a year ago. Researching the serial number I found that mine was manufactured in the mid 90's. Still holding up just fine. I really don't see where they logically get a "4 year life" for Glocks in Police service. The vast majority of cops keep it holstered 99% of the time while on duty and only fire it enough to qualify once or twice a year. :dunno:

G26S239
01-25-2013, 10:45
Have you ever seen a LEO carry a empty pistol? :wow:

Gun weights are typically expressed as empty with mag inserted in manufacturers supplied user manuals. My Glock 21 weighs 29.8 ounces. My USP45f is 31.8 ounces. My Les Baer TRS is 39.8 ounces. My Kimber TLE/RL is 40.2 ounces. The XD45 Tactical was 32 ounces IIRC. Doing an apples to apples comparison of full size 45 ACPs 30.4 ounces for the SIG P220 is not heavy.