accidental/ neglegent discharge. learn from each others mistakes [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Stock Perfection
01-24-2013, 19:31
Hello all! I was surprised not to find this topic. It is a very high level of awareness indeed that prevents a person who works with a side-arm daily, for many years at a time, to never unintentionally fire that weapon. I am a conscientious (former) gun owner. I make it my business to always keep things safe. Although, in 23 years of carry, even I have made this huge, inexcuseble mistake not once, but twice. Both times were due to operator error. Both times were caused by not clearing the weapon prior to depressing the trigger. Once in preperation for cleaning, and once while actually clearing a pistol. Whatever was left of my good safety practices made for no injuries. This hasn't happened for many years, because I simply willl not allow that to happen again. This is exactly the sort of thing we should talk about. The eleventeen rounds on target in under a second stories are good, but I'd like safety fresh in the minds of those armed persons around me. A person does a thing so many times, and even without realizing it, misses a step, does something out of order etc, and bang! I hope people are honest in telling their stories, so we all can take something from each. What's your opinion on this subject? Thanks. Stock Perfection- perminent gun rookie

Dooger
01-24-2013, 19:38
Never happened to me...and I hope it never does.

moonwilson
01-24-2013, 19:39
I've never had an ND in over 30 years of using firearms, and pray to God I never do. If I ever had an ND, I'd never, ever hear the end of it from my Dad. He would probably call me in the middle of the night, five years later, just to remind and chastise me. And not to mention my wife- she'd string me up. I'm super, super careful with my guns, but accidents can and do happen.

Attention to detail, gentlemen.

vandros
01-24-2013, 19:47
I think if it ever happens to anybody, they should put the gun down, slowly step away, then sell it, and never come near guns ever again. I know that is exactly what I would do, if AD ever happened to me because of operator error. Some people are not wired to have safety as their first priority when handling dangerous objects (even though they might think the are), which can cost them or some other innocent person their life. Just my 0.02. I don't mean this as a criticism of the OP - just my opinion.

tonyparson
01-24-2013, 19:51
Over 20 years handling guns and never had and AD. If you follow the gun safety rules you'll never have one.

danNiB-X
01-24-2013, 20:04
If I learned anything in the service it was attention to detail. The second you get lazy and forget the basics is when these types of things happen. When picking up any firearm(goes with out saying) safety protocol should be automatic. In my 25+ years of firearm ownership I have never had any issues. I have had people safety check a weapon in front of me, hand me the weapon and ask me why I re-check it before handling it...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Stock Perfection
01-24-2013, 20:17
Dooger- You are on your sefety. Continue that.
moonwilson- You are a go. And how do I get my old mans voice out of my head telling me to clear it- whatever it is- first?
vandros- That's pretty harsh- but opinions are what I've asked for. The op is not offended my friend.
tonyparson- Fine job. Not following the rules IS the problem.
danNiB-X- Stay alert stay alive. I simply failed to follow protocol. I am MR double safety check, believe that or not!
Looking foward to more stories!

ncglock19
01-24-2013, 20:26
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I'm sorry you are a former gun owner.

Remember the rule for all gun safety... If you are going through your process (in this case, making the gun safe) you are somehow interrupted, don't continue the process, start over from the beginning.

nc19

vandros
01-24-2013, 20:33
vandros- That's pretty harsh- but opinions are what I've asked for. The op is not offended my friend.


Sorry, pal, didn't mean to be harsh/rude

Lone Wolf8634
01-24-2013, 21:00
I am fanatically, anal retentively, religiously OCD about gun safety. IMHO it's the only way to prevent a ND. As soon as I pick up one of my weapons I begin a litany in head. "Finger OFF the trigger, point down, clear or holster the gun" etc etc depending on what I'm doing.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it. But I'm confident that I'm careful enough to not have an ND.

Stock Perfection
01-24-2013, 21:00
Sorry, pal, didn't mean to be harsh/rude
Didn't expect that you would have meant to be rude, I meant harsh as in; as a response. No worries.
ncglock19- Unfortunately, it took me twice, that's rough. Bad enough I thought I'd mention it here, and see what people had to say about their own experiences.
Lone Wolf8634- Stay off the meds, OCD on gun safety can not be a bad thing lol!

oneuglygun
01-24-2013, 22:26
A very qualified instructor from a Federal agency where I trained years ago said "there are two kinds of firearms handlers, those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD". I tend to agree with him.

9mmdude
01-25-2013, 02:06
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1461604

Stock Perfection
01-25-2013, 06:40
oneuglygun- A half-deaf old artilleryman once told me the same thing. "Not me." I thought...
9mmdude- Thanks for the link!

What experience have you had with ad/nd? What's your opinion?

Athensm50
01-25-2013, 06:54
A very qualified instructor from a Federal agency where I trained years ago said "there are two kinds of firearms handlers, those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD". I tend to agree with him.

This reminds me of the same thing that I heard when I had my motorcycle......

it was not If you were going to lay it down....it was when you were going to lay it down!

9mmdude
01-25-2013, 07:03
oneuglygun- A half-deaf old artilleryman once told me the same thing. "Not me." I thought...
9mmdude- Thanks for the link!

What experience have you had with ad/nd? What's your opinion?

I had one with a shotgun. Gun didnt fire and I smacked the buttstock on a rock, boom! Scared the crap out of me. Had a buddy that loaded a rifle next to me and it slam fired when he closed the action. The gun was defective and went full auto. He had to have it fixed by a gunsmith. Also scared the crap out of me.

RoyHinkley
01-25-2013, 07:10
This reminds me of the same thing that I heard when I had my motorcycle......

it was not If you were going to lay it down....it was when you were going to lay it down!

Now that's one thing I HAVE done:embarassed:

fuzzy03cls
01-25-2013, 07:22
Follow the gun rules & it will never happen. You don't need to be OCD & over think it. Simple as that. Follow the rules all the time. This is not rocket science.

uncledoodoo
01-25-2013, 07:30
Always good to have a reminder. My kids get it every single time they handle a gun. I try to keep in mind the time I went hunting with friends at about 18 yrs old and one of my friends dropped his 12 gauge and it fired within an inch of his head. We can never be reminded too much. Thanks

jdsumner
01-25-2013, 07:32
I have seen more than one person fire a second round downrange because they didn't deliberately reset the trigger, and the recoil and slop caused a really nice double tap.
Some of these same folks claim they have never had a AD/ND.
More people have had them than: will admit,
are aware that they did, since it, fortunately didn't
result in serious damage.
I attended Rany Cain's TH101 a few years back. While walking students thru the stages of trigger activation (pull, press, compression, stroke, whatever one wishes to call it), a student who was unfamiliar with proper reset fired "once" but had two holes on his target. Upon diagnosis from Mr. Cain, it was noted his trigger finger was firing a round, coming immediately forward, bouncing off the trigger guard and back into the trigger. He did not mean to fire two rounds, but he did. Later, on a forum discussion he landed pretty hard on someone who 'fessed up to a ND. I reminded him of his 'immaculate double tap'. "yeah, but nobody got hurt, and it was on the range". True enough, but an ND is an ND. I submit more folks have had them than are actually confessed to.

dan

jdsumner
01-25-2013, 07:40
As to anyone who's ever had one NEVER owning a gun again, some of the greats of the firearms world have had them. And we might never have had thier input had this rule been Law.
Some of the most renowned instructors, lawmen, military combatants have had them. IT CAN HAPPEN.
This does not diminish the need for caution. It is to reinforce that "familiarity breeds contempt".

dan

CitizenOfDreams
01-25-2013, 08:08
This reminds me of the same thing that I heard when I had my motorcycle......

When you ride a motorcycle, there are some things beyond your control. When you handle a gun, it's you and only you pulling that trigger.

Shiloh228
01-25-2013, 08:16
When you ride a motorcycle, there are some things beyond your control. When you handle a gun, it's you and only you pulling that trigger.
And with a Glock, pulling the trigger is the ONLY way it will shoot (in theory)...but it does pay to be doubly/triply safe than sorry just once.

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 08:28
Follow the gun rules & it will never happen. You don't need to be OCD & over think it. Simple as that. Follow the rules all the time. This is not rocket science.

This is absolutely true ("This is not rocket science") as long as the 'human factor' is removed from the equation.

I learned gun safety rules as a kid from tough mentors who were teaching me to hunt.

I had gun safety rules reinforced 'military style' from Uncle Sam at Fort Leonard Wood.

I studied the rules again in NRA courses.

Workplace safety was in my area of responsibility during my career.

Still, about 3 years ago I experienced a ND in my home with a Glock 22 after finishing a dry firing exercise. No one was hurt, but my life was forever changed.

For those who say "just follow the rules" my suggestion is to add another layer of awareness to your gun handling technique. My approach is to consciously treat all firearms for what they are...deadly devices. They aren't SD equipment or sporting gear or range toys. They demand 100% awareness.

The explanation for my mishap is simply that I allowed the human factor to short circuit my years of safety training and safe gun handling experience. It was a mental lapse. A split-second moment of forgetfulness allowed me to commit an unforgivable act. And, it can happen to anyone.

Arc Angel
01-25-2013, 08:55
Hello all! I was surprised not to find this topic. It is a very high level of awareness indeed that prevents a person who works with a side-arm daily, for many years at a time, to never unintentionally fire that weapon.

Everybody's in denial! ;) In my own personal observations it's the other guy that you really have to watch. In fact two days ago I found myself ducking all around a gunsmith's shop while he hammered away on a pistol with a live round jammed in the chamber.

He turned the muzzle one way while he hammered; and I immediately moved. He turned the muzzle another way; and I moved again. Then he covered the dumbass who caused the problem in the first place with his faulty reloads; and I finally spoke up to quip, 'Hey, don't ND the customer; he hasn't paid you, yet!' :supergrin:

My own pet peeve? I don't like (and avoid whenever possible) standing on the left side of any firing line. 'Why'? Because the moment a right-handed pistol shooter has a problem, 'What' does he do with the muzzle? Answer: He lowers the pistol, holds the gun in front of him, and points the muzzle to the left while he screws around with the thing. (Happens all the time!) :freak:

What's your opinion on this subject? Thanks. Stock Perfection- perminent (SIC) gun rookie

I've had a few AD's (and they WERE AD's). Fortunately I've never had one when the muzzle wasn't pointed at either the target or downrange. My old friend, 'mitchshrader' once said to me, 'Arc, I think you might have loved guns for too long and too well.' Mitch meant that I have long had a significant increased exposure to firearms and firearm-related events. It was a sage remark on his part; and underlined for me the added need to be constantly vigilant.

Last night at the range I found myself standing next to a brand new gun owner. The fellow remarked that this was his first Glock - His very first gun, in fact - and he seemed apprehensive. We talked for a few moments; and he recognized me as a longtime gun owner. Suddenly he asks me, 'What's the one thing you do, more than anything else, that you believe has kept you safe with a gun for so many years?'

I thought for a moment; there were a lot of suggestions I could have made; but, after thinking about it, I held my index finger straight up in the air and replied, 'Whatever else you do, remember to keep your trigger finger straight until AFTER you make a conscious decision to fire.'

His eyes seemed to light up and he seemed to relax a bit when I said that. Then I noticed that he was carrying his brand new G-17 in a brand new holster with a thumbsnap on it. I pointed to the holster and commented, 'Take that new holster back to whoever sold it to you; and get something with an open-top and tension-screw adjustment design.' (The kind that most of the other pistol shooters in the room - who weren't in uniform - were using.)

When he asked me, 'Why' I told him, 'Because unless you're a hunter, or expect to be wrestling with people you aren't going to need that thumb strap; and, besides, the security level of that particular holster isn't sufficient enough to prevent someone from grabbing your pistol in the first place.' 'If a bad guy wants it, he'll have it; AND, at a game like this (Basically IDPA) all that thumb strap is going to do is louse you up![/I]'

He didn't get it; so I added, 'Remember what I said about keeping your trigger finger straight?' He replied, 'Yes!' I told him, 'Well that doesn't only apply to drawing or pointing a pistol; ....... many, if not most, ND's occur while you're reholstering the pistol; and, there, that thumb strap ain't going to help.'

He asked what holster I was using and I showed him the open-topped Kydex and retention screw model I had on. When I was leaving the building I saw this fellow at the sales counter returning that thumb snap holster and getting his money back. He smiled and waved as I walked by. I wish him well with his first gun. :)

fuzzy03cls
01-25-2013, 09:27
I think some over think it & cause a ND by being so in awe of the gun.
Also think that people with long histories with guns are more prone as they develop bad habits over time.

D4RWlN
01-25-2013, 09:32
Accidental Discharge(AD)= some type of equipment failure
Negligent Discharge(ND)= operator error

They are two very separate things and in my book just as bad or worse than calling a magazine a clip or a clip a magazine. If the firearm malfunctions and fires it is an AD. It you gun fires because someone was being an idiot, it is a ND.

Complacency with a firearm can get someone killed, seriously injured, or at he very least make you feel and look like a tool if you rip off a round when you didn't mean to. We all have to keep ourselves in check and remember to be safe.

D4RWlN
01-25-2013, 09:38
I think some over think it & cause a ND by being so in awe of the gun.
Also think that people with long histories with guns are more prone as they develop bad habits over time.

I think that is all dependent on if they were taught proper safety to begin with and continue to practice what they were taught. I do agree we all get can get complacent at times and need to take a step back from time to time and remember to stay on top of ourselves.

Gallium
01-25-2013, 09:44
...
I attended Rany Cain's TH101 a few years back. While walking students thru the stages of trigger activation (pull, press, compression, stroke, whatever one wishes to call it), a student who was unfamiliar with proper reset fired "once" but had two holes on his target. Upon diagnosis from Mr. Cain, it was noted his trigger finger was firing a round, coming immediately forward, bouncing off the trigger guard and back into the trigger. He did not mean to fire two rounds, but he did. Later, on a forum discussion he landed pretty hard on someone who 'fessed up to a ND. I reminded him of his 'immaculate double tap'. "yeah, but nobody got hurt, and it was on the range". True enough, but an ND is an ND. I submit more folks have had them than are actually confessed to.

dan


You absolutely should not attach negligence to shooting if your gun is pointing at something you fully intend to shoot.

That was an accidental discharge, no negligence was involved.

jdsumner
01-25-2013, 09:48
I submit he did not intend to shoot the target twice. He was instructed to fire 'one' shot. Two were discharged. His finger actuated the trigger, when it was not meant, (or intended to). The mechanical component of the equation worked as it is supposed to.

dan

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 09:49
I am fanatically, anal retentively, religiously OCD about gun safety. IMHO it's the only way to prevent a ND. As soon as I pick up one of my weapons I begin a litany in head. "Finger OFF the trigger, point down, clear or holster the gun" etc etc depending on what I'm doing.


This is the model I use for handling any firearm, any time. I learned that it takes a higher level of concentration than robotically following the cardinal rules of safety.

janice6
01-25-2013, 10:26
I am fanatically, anal retentively, religiously OCD about gun safety. IMHO it's the only way to prevent a ND. As soon as I pick up one of my weapons I begin a litany in head. "Finger OFF the trigger, point down, clear or holster the gun" etc etc depending on what I'm doing.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it. But I'm confident that I'm careful enough to not have an ND.


I am not afaid of my firearms, but I follow this approach also. I have not had an AD/ND in 64 years.

Gallium
01-25-2013, 13:14
I submit he did not intend to shoot the target twice. He was instructed to fire 'one' shot. Two were discharged. His finger actuated the trigger, when it was not meant, (or intended to). The mechanical component of the equation worked as it is supposed to.

dan

There was no negligence on his part, nor was there any unintentional damage of property or harm to person. The gun was pointed in a safe direction, and it does not matter how many rounds were fired.

This was a pure AD.

Lone Wolf8634
01-25-2013, 16:16
I am not afaid of my firearms, but I follow this approach also. I have not had an AD/ND in 64 years.


Just for the record, I am not afraid of my firearms, I just have a healthy respect for them and what they're capable of. I have the same respect for my scooter, my car/pickup and any semi that I drive.

The inner dialogue is my way of making sure that ALL my attention is focused on what I'm doing.

Stock Perfection
01-26-2013, 07:57
Good stuff! Some close calls. Alot of lessons learned here, and therefore to be leared from here. I appreciate your honesty. All of your opinions, and stories are welcome.

AD/ND They are All negligent- almost. But I was more interested in getting people involved in the discussion, for safetys sake. Let's remember that even if you fire a weapon thru negligence, it was an accident. One that you could have avoided by not being negligent. Accidents happen to everyone. Everyone.

ArcAngel- Denial and complacency is exactly what I'm hoping to bring to light with this thread. The story about the gun shop? Man I almost had tears in my eyes! I can just imagine ducking back and forth!

Boox
01-26-2013, 08:15
Well I'll own my two...at the range and shooting my new to me Ruger single six, older 3 screw model without the transfer bar update and, since I was at the range I loaded 6 instead of 5...barrel pointed at the ground, turned from the bench to the target, let the hammer down as I normally would, it slipped and I just missed my big toe...put a nice groove in my boot tho...2nd time...need to start by saying i'm a lefty...always had pump or slide action rifles, bolt rifles are nice but a pain...anyhow...I found a beautiful LEFT handed Rem 1100, my favorite shot gun, at a great price. My first ever and only, REAL left handed gun...I had been shooting my Rem 20 gauge in the informal skeet matches at a local club and got used to the right handed safety...I never had a safety changed before, so I was used to operating them back handed if you will...First day out with the new lefty 12 ga I had loaded 2 at station 3, had a misfire, cleared it, and in dropping the gun back to low rest, let the slide go, as I pushed the safety off, (not on, right handed learning) and luckily all I killed was a bunch of grass...I did retire from that match after that one...scared me all to hell.
Guess I still need more practice...
BTW, the 20 gauge now has a left handed safety and I am a lot better with the 12...

Be careful out there

4095fanatic
01-26-2013, 08:24
I was told "there are those that have had one, and those that are going to have one. No one's perfect". I agree its possible to go a lifetime without one... But we're all human here, and we all make mistakes. I haven't had one yet, which I use as a reminder that I need to not get complacent. Just my opinion.




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

D4RWlN
01-26-2013, 08:27
Good stuff! Some close calls. Alot of lessons learned here, and therefore to be leared from here. I appreciate your honesty. All of your opinions, and stories are welcome.

AD/ND They are All negligent- almost. But I was more interested in getting people involved in the discussion, for safetys sake. Let's remember that even if you fire a weapon thru negligence, it was an accident. One that you could have avoided by not being negligent. Accidents happen to everyone. Everyone.

ArcAngel- Denial and complacency is exactly what I'm hoping to bring to light with this thread. The story about the gun shop? Man I almost had tears in my eyes! I can just imagine ducking back and forth!

AD is equipment failure! So NO not all ADs are negligent. If an AD was negligent then they would be a ND not AD. Calling a ND a AD is just a cop out for doing something stupid. Its like the cops that come up in the media every once in a while who shoot themselves in the leg. They claim the gun "just went off" (AD) but really they reholstered with their finger on the trigger(ND) or with a piece of clothing etc in their trigger guard(ND). They just don't won't to admit to doing something stupid or be reprimanded for improper handling of their sidearm. They are not the same and should not be considered/treated the same. Its like getting rear ended because someone's brakes went out vs some jerk texting or putting on make up when they should have been driving.

Stock Perfection
01-26-2013, 08:45
D4RWIN- The last thing I'm doing here is copping out. I have been honest about my mistakes. I did not say that all ADs are NDs, I said almost. You even quoted me. I am unclear what your motivation is. I am interested in having a discussion about mistakes made, or nearly made, and how to avoid them. Your definitions are accepted. Have you had any experiences you would like to share?

ithaca_deerslayer
01-26-2013, 08:47
I have seen more than one person fire a second round downrange because they didn't deliberately reset the trigger, and the recoil and slop caused a really nice double tap.
Some of these same folks claim they have never had a AD/ND.
More people have had them than: will admit,
are aware that they did, since it, fortunately didn't
result in serious damage.
I attended Rany Cain's TH101 a few years back. While walking students thru the stages of trigger activation (pull, press, compression, stroke, whatever one wishes to call it), a student who was unfamiliar with proper reset fired "once" but had two holes on his target. Upon diagnosis from Mr. Cain, it was noted his trigger finger was firing a round, coming immediately forward, bouncing off the trigger guard and back into the trigger. He did not mean to fire two rounds, but he did. Later, on a forum discussion he landed pretty hard on someone who 'fessed up to a ND. I reminded him of his 'immaculate double tap'. "yeah, but nobody got hurt, and it was on the range". True enough, but an ND is an ND. I submit more folks have had them than are actually confessed to.

dan

Not sure what we want to call that situation. Some sort of unintended extra trigger pull while in the act of safely firing down range.

If the gun is pointed up too high or too far to the side, where you miss the berm, then we've crossed the line to hazzard. But otherwise I think if it happens while practising, and you are pointed down range and the range is hot at that moment, and you are on target, then you are practising and learning.

It is good to talk about those "unintended double taps" (there I just came up with a name for them), but I do not think it is useful to mix them in with other types of unintended firing. Certainly, the trigger control while firing has to be learned, and an unintended double tap in a defensive situation could be very bad (depending upon the scenario).

___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

Gallium
01-26-2013, 08:49
So I guess all of those folks who stepped on the accelerator (or brake) by mistake were negligent in their behavior.

Every definition of negligence I know of has an element of carelessness and/or reasonableness standard attached to it. There is not always a stark bright line between accidental discharges and negligent ones.

For example, someone can be careless or remiss in the maintenance of their firearm, which leads to NEGLIGENT equipment failure.

Likewise, someone can conduct an exercise or action which is not applicable to the scenario on hand and cause an accidental discharge - that being the one where I entered the thread - or in a case of where an instructor directs you to fire a set number of rounds, and you fire more than the prescribed number? How the heck can than that be considered negligent, if the bullets hit the intended target? What if the trainer said fire FIVE rounds, and you heard NINE rounds and fired nine rounds? That is negligent?

What if the trainer said fire nine rounds and you fired five? A negligent non-discharge?

Sometimes we get wrapped too much into definitions and don't take a rational look at the situation in front of us. Someone driving down a street that mistakes the weight or height warning on a sign might be acting negligently, or it could be completely accidental - but that cannot be determined unless and until you know their frame of mind.

Someone who sleep walks, finds a key, opens a safe, loads a firearm, and puts a bullet in the family pet - accident or negligence? What if they have no history of sleepwalking?

Like I said before, these things are only cut and dried to people who have not lived long enough to have seen everything under the sun. I certainly have not lived long enough to have seen everything, but I certainly appreciate that accidental and negligent discharges don't always fall under one or another column.

- G

D4RWlN
01-26-2013, 09:36
So I guess all of those folks who stepped on the accelerator (or brake) by mistake were negligent in their behavior.

Training error. Their fault yes.

Every definition of negligence I know of has an element of carelessness and/or reasonableness standard attached to it. There is not always a stark bright line between accidental discharges and negligent ones.

For example, someone can be careless or remiss in the maintenance of their firearm, which leads to NEGLIGENT equipment failure.

Then its ND not AD. Seems Clear to me. Like having a worn out leather holster bunch up into your trigger guard. ND

Likewise, someone can conduct an exercise or action which is not applicable to the scenario on hand and cause an accidental discharge - that being the one where I entered the thread - or in a case of where an instructor directs you to fire a set number of rounds, and you fire more than the prescribed number? How the heck can than that be considered negligent, if the bullets hit the intended target? What if the trainer said fire FIVE rounds, and you heard NINE rounds and fired nine rounds? That is negligent?

What if the trainer said fire nine rounds and you fired five? A negligent non-discharge?

Seriously, that's a weak point. You have committed to pulling the trigger and the firearm functioned as intended. You have control of your firearm not the instructor. This is neither AD/ND as the firearm did what was intended by you. I feel like you are just reaching on this one. Is your next post going to include unicorns, pots of gold at the end of rainbows, and flying monkeys? Because it would have just about as much relevance. In fact if there is anymore of this nonsense, something that can be easily settled with common sense, I'm probably not going to apply any effort in the response and just reply with "potato" as it makes about as much sense

Sometimes we get wrapped too much into definitions and don't take a rational look at the situation in front of us. Someone driving down a street that mistakes the weight or height warning on a sign might be acting negligently, or it could be completely accidental - but that cannot be determined unless and until you know their frame of mind.

Definitions are there for a reason. Without them there would be more confusion and misinformation. I agree that everything is not black and white but I am sick of people labeling their negligence an accident. For every legitimate AD there are hundreds claiming an accident instead of their negligence. I'm not saying their isn't a gray area. But its very small compared to how huge people want it to be(at least of this subject.) Your example of the sleep walker with no prior history is a perfect example of this. What is that? Like 1 in a million,couple million, chance of that happening? It proves my point that the gray area on this subject is very small.

Someone who sleep walks, finds a key, opens a safe, loads a firearm, and puts a bullet in the family pet - accident or negligence? What if they have no history of sleepwalking?

See above

Like I said before, these things are only cut and dried to people who have not lived long enough to have seen everything under the sun. I certainly have not lived long enough to have seen everything, but I certainly appreciate that accidental and negligent discharges don't always fall under one or another column.

No one has or ever will live long enough to know and witness everything but we can all try to exercise some common sense.
- G

...potato

D4RWlN
01-26-2013, 09:54
...Have you had any experiences you would like to share?

Sure, I had a ND. I was laying prone shooting a rifle. I was about to break the shot and the last second decided just before to shift my position a little. I lowered the rifle away from my face and shifted my body a little but didn't take my finger off the trigger. It was stupid and I ripped a 30-06 off in the yard about 10 ft in front of me. No one was hurt except a little of my own pride and it taught me to not get complacent in handling.

I'm not ripping on you at all I hope that is not the way it was received. I am speaking in general that most do not want to admit their own negligence. I do not think that to be the case here but definitions matter.

rdstrain49
01-26-2013, 10:01
A very qualified instructor from a Federal agency where I trained years ago said "there are two kinds of firearms handlers, those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD". I tend to agree with him.


I also am a very qualified instructor (30+ years LE instructor) and I say that is non-sence. If you admit that you will fail, sooner or later you will. It's not rocket science, think and then think again. Safety with weapons is of the greatest importance, but it's not that hard.

tbob38
01-26-2013, 10:28
A very qualified instructor from a Federal agency where I trained years ago said "there are two kinds of firearms handlers, those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD". I tend to agree with him.

I would agree with that. In 66 years of gun handling, I have had one AD. My obsession of muzzle awareness prevented any serious damage. If I should ever have another, it will be a time for serious soul searching.

Huskytaio
01-26-2013, 10:37
I think most people who have had a ND will not post on here, but I will fess up and I have been a shooter for 38 years. I have a new neighbor with an aggressive pit bull (no offense to you pit bull lovers) and even tho we both have 4 ft high lattace fences, his is fulling apart. Everytime I go out back or my old dog, he runs toward the corner where our fences meet in an aggressive manner (I have also been a dog trainer). Once the owner was sitting out back, and as I peacefully went over to talk to him, his pit bull jumped up and was inches from removing my face as I got to his fence line. The dirt bag didn't blink an eye or apologize and just went back inside.

After that incident, I have kept a cocked and locked 1911 nearby. One night, when I was asleep in my lazy boy, with my 1911 on the armrest nearby on the couch, I heard my dog barking as if he was in a fight. I woke up and probably half asleep grabbed my Colt. I have no recollection of disengaging the safety or even going near the trigger, I just heard a large boom as it went off, and put a 45 hole in my ceiling. Luckily, no damage was done outside my home, and I had some patch work in the cealing and in the attic to do. Also glad it missed my Samsung 55" LED Tv.

Lesson learned: I still keep a weapon handy, thank the good Lord there were no injuries, but keep the gun further away to make sure I am fully awake by the time I get to my weapon. I got a free pass on this one, it scared the hell out of me. Decades of shooting and military service, but I have a invigorated or renewed sense of safety.

Gallium
01-26-2013, 13:25
...potato

You seemed to have missed the point where I said

1. Negligent care of a gun that leads to a failure in the firearm is still negligence.

2. Someone else called firing two rounds instead of one "negligent", not I.

If it's ok with you, please do keep your unicorn farts, etc I don't live nor operate in a fairy tale world. Other than that...thanks for (rather obliquely) making my point.

When you get a chance look up the meaning of the word "negligent" as it is used in the vernacular, and in the realm of the law.

D4RWlN
01-26-2013, 13:51
1. It seems we agree to some extent.
2. I apologize. I thought you we claiming so.

Gallium
01-26-2013, 13:57
1. It seems we agree to some extent.
2. I apologize. I thought you we claiming so.


Not entirely your fault. Sometimes I bury my nuggets in 1000lbs of crap. :supergrin:

jdsumner
01-26-2013, 14:16
Gallium, D4rwin,

I'm the one who relayed the 'two shots, one called' story. It wasn't my intention to generate quite the level of "letter of the law" vs "intent of the law" scrutiny that resulted. Instead, I more intended to relay that a shot may be fired unintentionally, with a 'no net loss' effect. In the incident described, as Gallium stated, no property was damaged, and no injury occurred. I suppose then, it could be an accidental discharge, or maybe an "acceptable errant shot".
My overall jist, however, was to infer that just because someone fired a gun unintentionally, does not in my eyes, mean they should never handle firearms again, as I've heard some to suggest. To the contrary, it MAY cause that person to be 'safer', and more dilligent from then on. Some, it is the beginning of a string of negligent behavior. Agreed, those folks should be kept gunfree.

Gallium, as you have expressed a greater knowledge of legalities and terminologies than I, I'd like to pose a question concerning the incident.
If the second shot fired under those same circimstances had topped the berm and caused an injury, would the shooter be charged with 'negligence'? I hope I've posed this question in a nonconfrontational way. It is with sincere curiosity that I ask your opinion.

dan

snowG29
01-27-2013, 23:10
A very qualified instructor from a Federal agency where I trained years ago said "there are two kinds of firearms handlers, those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD"...

A false dichotomy, no responsible instructor/owner should ever utter such nonsense.

If an AD/ND is inevitable... why only one? Why not many more after that? It's out of control, correct?

Also I'm, new to this argument about AD/ND... are these legal definitions, as suggested? Or simply vernacular created to make the irresponsible party feel better about their incident.

I noticed this 9mm bullet close to my lane at the range a few weeks ago. I only had my 45 and was retrieving brass. Uncertain if the AD/ND occurred while I was there, didn't see it happen. Actually, content I did not. Would have been an ugly conversation, and I would not have cared whether or not the perpetrator thought it was an AD or ND.

http://i47.tinypic.com/90onwj.jpg

Markel
01-28-2013, 06:16
I thought for a moment; there were a lot of suggestions I could have made; but, after thinking about it, I held my index finger straight up in the air and replied, 'Whatever else you do, remember to keep your trigger finger straight until AFTER you make a conscious decision to fire.'

I couldn't agree more! Well put.

Many NDs happen while "dry firing", so I'd add:

"Never dry fire without first visually checking the chamber. Every time! On every trigger pull."

dhgeyer
01-28-2013, 06:38
I've been a shooter since 1954, and never had one go off unintentionally. I think the secret is keeping your mind on what you're doing. After many years of doing the same drill, it's easy to go on autopilot sometimes. So my answer is, the first step in handling a firearm, to clear it, clean it, shoot it, or for any other purpose, is to stop for a second or two, clear your mind, and focus on what you're doing. Then follow the rules.

Arc Angel
01-28-2013, 07:37
I couldn't agree more! Well put.

Many NDs happen while "dry firing", so I'd add:

"Never dry fire without first visually checking the chamber. Every time! On every trigger pull."

GOOD! :thumbsup:

This and reholstering are, in my opinion, two of the THREE MOST DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES a shooter can do with a semiautomatic pistol in his hand.

The third particularly dangerous activity is preparing to clean a semiautomatic. Most of the people I know, personally, who have admitted to ND'ing a semi-auto, all, 'let one go' after dropping the magazine AND, then, failing to clear the chamber.

eccho
01-28-2013, 08:07
Hello all! I was surprised not to find this topic. It is a very high level of awareness indeed that prevents a person who works with a side-arm daily, for many years at a time, to never unintentionally fire that weapon. I am a conscientious (former) gun owner. I make it my business to always keep things safe. Although, in 23 years of carry, even I have made this huge, inexcuseble mistake not once, but twice. Both times were due to operator error. Both times were caused by not clearing the weapon prior to depressing the trigger. Once in preperation for cleaning, and once while actually clearing a pistol. Whatever was left of my good safety practices made for no injuries. This hasn't happened for many years, because I simply willl not allow that to happen again. This is exactly the sort of thing we should talk about. The eleventeen rounds on target in under a second stories are good, but I'd like safety fresh in the minds of those armed persons around me. A person does a thing so many times, and even without realizing it, misses a step, does something out of order etc, and bang! I hope people are honest in telling their stories, so we all can take something from each. What's your opinion on this subject? Thanks. Stock Perfection- perminent gun rookie



Props for at least admitting it and not just brushing it under the rug like it never happened.


Never happened to me, but I've been carrying about a year now. Hopefully it never will, and hopefully even if it did I would have the state of mind to remember enough other gun rules to not hurt somebody. Safe direction and whatnot.

eccho
01-28-2013, 08:12
If we're talking about rules here, I've seen lists from different people. NRA has a safety list. Many manufacturers (remington for example) ship guns with a safety sheet, nutnfancy has some habits I believe...

I think accidents happen when people forget how serious it is to handle a gun. I'm not ripping on the OP here, but I've seen people at work do things that aren't safe because they've been interacting with something for so long (machinery, fryer, etc.) that they start to think it's no big deal.

Randallpink
01-28-2013, 10:41
I am a supervisor in a warehouse. I've learned the first 2 S's will lead to the 3rd:

1. Safety
2. Sanitation
3. Success

I disengage the magazine, and rack the slide three times and always visually inspect chamber to ensure no ammunition. It mimics the Left, Right, Left method we have all been taught when at a stop sign while driving (Safety).

Keeping a gun clean, lubricated and free of any debris will ensure proper function. (Sanitation).

Never let "habit" or "2nd nature" dictate how you handle a firearm. Consider the handgun as always loaded and complete your checklist each and every time.

Proper Safety measures and correct Sanitation processes will lead to Success!

PhotoFeller
01-28-2013, 11:03
I think accidents happen when people forget how serious it is to handle a gun."...I've seen people at work do things that aren't safe because they've been interacting with something for so long... that they start to think it's no big deal."

This is a large part of the ND explanation, and its similar to the mental lapse that can happen to novices and experienced shooters. These are similar but different forms of carelessness.

Consider the life-long carpenter who whacks off a finger while operating the table saw he has been using accident free for decades. Consider the prominent surgeon who leaves an instrument inside a gallbladder surgery patient. Think about the veteran painter who falls when he mindlessly steps off of scaffolding high above the pavement. These accidents, and many, many others, are common among people who are well trained, experienced, know the safety rules and understand the consequences of not being fully alert.

Don't ever think you are immune from a gun-handling accident just because you've been diligently following the safety rules for a long time. And muscle memory that keeps the 'booger hook' straight isn't enough. Being fully alert and conscious of the danger IN THE MOMENT is the only process that works every time.

Gallium
01-28-2013, 14:25
...
Gallium, as you have expressed a greater knowledge of legalities and terminologies than I, I'd like to pose a question concerning the incident.
If the second shot fired under those same circumstances had topped the berm and caused an injury, would the shooter be charged with 'negligence'? I hope I've posed this question in a non-confrontational way. It is with sincere curiosity that I ask your opinion.

dan

Hello Dan. :)

My answer would be - I cannot honestly answer this question without looking at the "totality of the circumstances". Every day, people do every single thing right, and still cause damage to property, injury to person, or bruising of egos.

What would happen if the 1st shot cleared the berm? I was a consultant for a case involving this very same scenario (I didn't have to testify at trial). MAYBE the shooter would /could claim the berm was not properly maintained, and that it's negligent design or maintenance allowed for a bullet to escape. :shocked:

It does not matter if it's the 1st round, or the last dozen - we should always look first at the behavior of the operator, the rules for the range, and the structural design/integrity of the range.


I have more thoughts on "rounds on target that exceed the instructor's directive" but it shall have to wait until later.

- G

jdsumner
01-28-2013, 14:32
Thank you, Sir.

dan

kenpoprofessor
01-28-2013, 15:38
My grandfather, a WW2 vet, nearly took my leg off with a ND while attempting to disassmble his bring back 1911. It gave me a very, very strong awareness factor, so as of yet, 38 years later, I haven't had one. A few AD's though, guns were messed up, springs broke, etc., but all were at the range pointed safely.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

johnson8861
01-28-2013, 20:13
I was at a fob in Iraq back in '03, and had a Major ND with his M9 right beside the clearing barrel striking my humvee, which was parked in an authorized area. As the professional NCO I was (Sergeant E-5) I jumped up and immediately found the Major swinging around his pistol like he had no sense. I snatched his pistol,cleared it properly, and began to get neck deep in his ass, not realizing he was a Major. This continued til the LTC showed up curious what the hold up was. I told him, and then gave the LTC the pistol, and told him to not return the pistol to the Major until he receives remedial training. The LTC agreed and we sprang different directions. As you guessed I get called to the SCO's office as soon as I returned. LTC Calvert wanted to express that this is how he wants his NCO's to perform, I thought my ass was in a sling. And happily ever after.

jdsumner
01-28-2013, 20:38
johnson8861,
wise men appreciate earnest correction, no matter thier status. Good on ya!

dan

gommer
01-29-2013, 09:04
Well, not the typical - but I did once get to have the joyous experience of a firearm discharging on it's own.

It was when I was very young. Out squirrel hunting with my daisy 22. The firearm simply discharged, no finger on or near the trigger. Not only did it discharge, but it continued to rapidly discharge until it jammed. So fast, actually, that I didn't realize it had discharged multiple times until my Father pointed out the spent casings on the ground.

He worked at Daisy at the time. Ended up that it was a manufacturing defect and not long after this incident they recalled the rifle. Still have the gun - have never used it since.

Just goes to show how incredibly important it is to always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction. Even if your finger isn't on the trigger.

I've read a lot about Remington 700's having discharge issues, as well.

Guns aren't perfect, anyone who thinks they're immune are just as silly as the people who say they'd never need a gun to defend themselves. It's all a utopian world until it happens to you.

Be careful and follow good safety principles at all times and IF it ever happens, those principles in practice may save a life. I equate it to paying attention while you are driving. Sadly, we all see the morons texting or holding the phone to their ear while driving -- so I have no doubt there are an equal number of folks who ignore good safety practices.

Montblanc
01-29-2013, 09:20
People's ccw weapons are pointed at people all the time usually your own body. If you can't trust a gun to not go off then you have a serious issue. I'm not saying to point it at people, but if you were to follow this rule you could never carry a gun or point it at someone to defend yourself.

Well, not the typical - but I did once get to have the joyous experience of a firearm discharging on it's own.

It was when I was very young. Out squirrel hunting with my daisy 22. The firearm simply discharged, no finger on or near the trigger. Not only did it discharge, but it continued to rapidly discharge until it jammed. So fast, actually, that I didn't realize it had discharged multiple times until my Father pointed out the spent casings on the ground.

He worked at Daisy at the time. Ended up that it was a manufacturing defect and not long after this incident they recalled the rifle. Still have the gun - have never used it since.

Just goes to show how incredibly important it is to always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction. Even if your finger isn't on the trigger.

I've read a lot about Remington 700's having discharge issues, as well.

Guns aren't perfect, anyone who thinks they're immune are just as silly as the people who say they'd never need a gun to defend themselves. It's all a utopian world until it happens to you.

Be careful and follow good safety principles at all times and IF it ever happens, those principles in practice may save a life. I equate it to paying attention while you are driving. Sadly, we all see the morons texting or holding the phone to their ear while driving -- so I have no doubt there are an equal number of folks who ignore good safety practices.

roundball
01-29-2013, 09:37
I learned a lesson on all handguns from a CZ52. We had bought several of these monsters at one time many years ago. The guns appeared to be new. This pistol had a safety that would drop the hammer. On dropping the hammer the pistol discharged. Shortly thereafter the importer refunded my money and there was a general recall. Always check the safety and functioning period.

ashecht
01-29-2013, 10:15
As a rule of thumb every time I pack up my guns from a range visit, I rack the slide several time to ensure an empty gun is going back in my bag. I also leave the slides lock back before they go into their respective gun pouches. Then when I remove the. From the bag to clean when I get home, I visually inspect each breech to again ensure there are no rounds present. Even so, I still go out on the deck to remove the slide from the frame. Anal-yes, safe-definitely

Bill Lumberg
01-29-2013, 10:37
I trust my duty weapon not to go off. But my guns are not pointed at anyone "all the time". Not me, not anyone else unless I'm getting close to shooting them. If you're ccwing, and your weapon is pointed at someone all the time, you're either not doing a very good job, or wearing a rearward pointing shoulder rig. When putting on my gun, wearing it throughout the day standing/sitting/driving, and when removing it at home, neither I nor anyone else is muzzled, barring those times when I am planking on top of a car. In that case, the car (if there is one) directly behind me gets muzzled. But that's the price of planking. I refuse to stop.



People's ccw weapons are pointed at people all the time usually your own body. If you can't trust a gun to not go off then you have a serious issue. I'm not saying to point it at people, but if you were to follow this rule you could never carry a gun or point it at someone to defend yourself.

gommer
01-29-2013, 10:51
People's ccw weapons are pointed at people all the time usually your own body. If you can't trust a gun to not go off then you have a serious issue. I'm not saying to point it at people, but if you were to follow this rule you could never carry a gun or point it at someone to defend yourself.

I won't disagree - I was more referring to when you are hunting and such... basically, rifles. Times when it can be controlled.

If you're carrying, which I do daily, you assume some level of risk in doing so. An example is that in any physical altercation you have increased the stakes simply because of the presence of your firearm.

The other day when I loaded a new mag into my M&P and the slide slammed shut. My first thought was back to that old 22, hah. By that I mean if it has a mechanical malfunction there, could be another.

I trust my M&P, though. A few more moments of 'logical' thought and I was able to clearly identify the cause of the apparent malfunction - which was extremely weak ammo. I've seen .45 ammo that you could *watch* go down range - but I hadn't seen 9mm ammo do the same. This particular range trip I had noticed I could watch the federal cheapo ammo as it made the 50yd trip. (Also BTF and dribbling, something my M&P had never done before)

I also noticed the brass was flaking apart - mostly because a 3mm x 1mm 'sliver' of said brass went down the back of my shirt. Being that it was hot was bad enough, so I made my firearm safe and stuck my hand back there to retrieve the hot sliver. It stuck about 1mm into my finger... hot sharp brass sliver, apparently. Not fun.

So, yes, I agree my statement was generalized and obviously can't apply to CCW all of the time as you are assuming risk when you carry.

On that same note, though, I know of two incidents locally where someone lifted their pants in a restroom and shot themselves in the leg with a holstered sidearm. That's a finger on the trigger situation (I expect) - but it really shows that folks sometimes get too comfortable with their firearm.

One incident was a senior 'official' (?) with IDPA and another was local law enforcement (off duty at the time).

When I'm carrying, I keep things like that in mind when I'm doing anything that involves my hand or another object going near my firearm. For instance, I NEVER carry appendix. I don't want to blow my junk off. On the same note, SOB is fine - because my cheeks aren't exactly vital. I'd prefer not experience either - but it's a risk I'm assuming.

Likewise, in my vehicle when storing a firearm I always make sure it is secured and in a safe direction.

The point I was trying to make is that it is possible for your firearm to discharge without direct action from yourself. Extremely unlikely - but just because you're more likely to win the lottery, doesn't mean you should completely discount the possibility.

What I was attempting to counter were the folks who have a "I'm not going to obsess" over safety type of attitude... by bringing contrast to comments such as those in contrast to people who don't think you need a gun to defend yourself because you shouldn't be obsessed over self-protection.

More than anything, though, I'm home sick today.. don't have cable (because it's a waste) - and the only thing coming in over the air is "The View". So, in order to avoid walking into traffic - I'm instead babbling here as much as possible because I've already read all of my normal news sites. :crying:

PhotoFeller
01-29-2013, 11:06
I won't disagree - I was more referring to when you are hunting and such... basically, rifles. Times when it can be controlled.

If you're carrying, which I do daily, you assume some level of risk in doing so. An example is that in any physical altercation you have increased the stakes simply because of the presence of your firearm.

The other day when I loaded a new mag into my M&P and the slide slammed shut. My first thought was back to that old 22, hah. By that I mean if it has a mechanical malfunction there, could be another.

I trust my M&P, though. A few more moments of 'logical' thought and I was able to clearly identify the cause of the apparent malfunction - which was extremely weak ammo. I've seen .45 ammo that you could *watch* go down range - but I hadn't seen 9mm ammo do the same. This particular range trip I had noticed I could watch the federal cheapo ammo as it made the 50yd trip. (Also BTF and dribbling, something my M&P had never done before)

I also noticed the brass was flaking apart - mostly because a 3mm x 1mm 'sliver' of said brass went down the back of my shirt. Being that it was hot was bad enough, so I made my firearm safe and stuck my hand back there to retrieve the hot sliver. It stuck about 1mm into my finger... hot sharp brass sliver, apparently. Not fun.

So, yes, I agree my statement was generalized and obviously can't apply to CCW all of the time as you are assuming risk when you carry.

On that same note, though, I know of two incidents locally where someone lifted their pants in a restroom and shot themselves in the leg with a holstered sidearm. That's a finger on the trigger situation (I expect) - but it really shows that folks sometimes get too comfortable with their firearm.

One incident was a senior 'official' (?) with IDPA and another was local law enforcement (off duty at the time).

When I'm carrying, I keep things like that in mind when I'm doing anything that involves my hand or another object going near my firearm. For instance, I NEVER carry appendix. I don't want to blow my junk off. On the same note, SOB is fine - because my cheeks aren't exactly vital. I'd prefer not experience either - but it's a risk I'm assuming.

Likewise, in my vehicle when storing a firearm I always make sure it is secured and in a safe direction.

The point I was trying to make is that it is possible for your firearm to discharge without direct action from yourself. Extremely unlikely - but just because you're more likely to win the lottery, doesn't mean you should completely discount the possibility.

What I was attempting to counter were the folks who have a "I'm not going to obsess" over safety type of attitude... by bringing contrast to comments such as those in contrast to people who don't think you need a gun to defend yourself because you shouldn't be obsessed over self-protection.

More than anything, though, I'm home sick today.. don't have cable (because it's a waste) - and the only thing coming in over the air is "The View". So, in order to avoid walking into traffic - I'm instead babbling here as much as possible because I've already read all of my normal news sites. :crying:

Tuning in to GT is almost always better than TV.

I appreciate your post. You demonstrate a 'safety mentality' that all gun owners should adopt. This isn't being obsessive, its being mindful that our firearms are deadly devices when mishandled. That reality should always be top-of-mind, just like explosive experts practice safety discipline every time a device is touched.

Gallium
01-29-2013, 13:02
I trust my duty weapon not to go off. But my guns are not pointed at anyone "all the time". Not me, not anyone else unless I'm getting close to shooting them. If you're ccwing, and your weapon is pointed at someone all the time, you're either not doing a very good job, or wearing a rearward pointing shoulder rig. When putting on my gun, wearing it throughout the day standing/sitting/driving, and when removing it at home, neither I nor anyone else is muzzled, barring those times when I am planking on top of a car. In that case, the car (if there is one) directly behind me gets muzzled. But that's the price of planking. I refuse to stop.


I think he meant holstered guns. I had a guy FREAK out on me in class because I walked in front of a desk with three guns on the desk, action opened. He told me I was a poor instructor because I "just muzzled myself". :upeyes::faint:

I said: "Guns that are at rest, or with the trigger securely encased are not considered to be muzzling someone or something. It is the gun that is being handled by someone (or something) that should cause us concern, and particularly those which are being handled where the trigger is exposed.

...some folks...

kodiakpb
01-29-2013, 13:16
When putting on my gun, wearing it throughout the day standing/sitting/driving, and when removing it at home, neither I nor anyone else is muzzled, barring those times when I am planking on top of a car. In that case, the car (if there is one) directly behind me gets muzzled. But that's the price of planking. I refuse to stop.

:rofl:

guns54
01-29-2013, 14:06
A very qualified instructor from a Federal agency where I trained years ago said "there are two kinds of firearms handlers, those that have had an AD and those that are going to have an AD". I tend to agree with him.How right you are,Have a safe day.

dereklord
01-29-2013, 14:14
Well, I have never had one, thank God. However, I have messed up things at work from being "human" and skipping parts of my checklist. Usually when it involves a process that I have done for years with perfect results. It is just a product of pride and haste I guess. So, I hope everyone stays safe and never experiences a ND, but, we are all human and like the OP said, we could and should learn from the mistakes of others.

Just_plinking
01-29-2013, 14:34
I've never had one. If I do, I have to let my gf set the gun handling policy around the house. I'm not being holier than thou. Mistakes can happen to anyone, BUT my finger doesn't touch the trigger unless I just checked the chamber was clear, or the gun is pointed at something I want to shoot. It's worked well for me so far.

Alter-Ego
01-29-2013, 15:05
Whats wrong with an AD once in a while? I'm sure there are a few 100k in prison right now because they did not mean for it to go off!!!

johnson8861
01-29-2013, 17:39
johnson8861,
wise men appreciate earnest correction, no matter thier status. Good on ya!

dan
Thanks buddy, you're the top in my book!

johnson8861
01-29-2013, 17:45
I think he meant holstered guns. I had a guy FREAK out on me in class because I walked in front of a desk with three guns on the desk, action opened. He told me I was a poor instructor because I "just muzzled myself". :upeyes::faint:

I said: "Guns that are at rest, or with the trigger securely encased are not considered to be muzzling someone or something. It is the gun that is being handled by someone (or something) that should cause us concern, and particularly those which are being handled where the trigger is exposed.

...some folks...
I still don't like to walk in front of a muzzle. Maybe it is just my superstition, or my ritual?

PhotoFeller
01-29-2013, 18:06
I still don't like to walk in front of a muzzle. Maybe it is just my superstition, or my ritual?

I'm with ya on avoiding being exposed to any muzzle. I don't like being muzzled when someone's gun is shoulder holstered. Even when cleaning a gun I avoid pointing it at myself. I think its due to a long lifetime of thinking about firearm safety.

dereklord
01-29-2013, 18:32
Plus one on the whole not liking being muzzled thingy.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Bill Lumberg
01-30-2013, 04:28
Handling a holstered weapon in such a manner as to muzzle others is unacceptable (for instance, the fellow I had to learn-up who was flipping and playing with his -holstered- new gun at a public range recently). One not being handled, as on a table, I'm not worried about. My -holstered- weapon does not point at me or others on a regular basis (referencing my previous statement). The guy you reference below was goofy. You couldn't teach a class by his standard. I think he meant holstered guns. I had a guy FREAK out on me in class because I walked in front of a desk with three guns on the desk, action opened. He told me I was a poor instructor because I "just muzzled myself". :upeyes::faint:

I said: "Guns that are at rest, or with the trigger securely encased are not considered to be muzzling someone or something. It is the gun that is being handled by someone (or something) that should cause us concern, and particularly those which are being handled where the trigger is exposed.

...some folks...

SFla27
01-30-2013, 08:05
Read, study, memorize, repeat:

1. Always assume a firearm is loaded and ready to fire. Always. In every situation.
2. Never point the muzzle at anything other than an intended threat.
3. Know your target and what's behind your target.
4. Never put your finger on the trigger until you've got a sight picture and are ready to engage a lethal threat.

My instructor made me memorize these as if they were passages in the bible (or something to that effect).

Like fundamental laws of Physics, rules of nature, etc.. they must always be adhered to. There are no exceptions.

As an aside, whenever I'm at the range and see newbies show up holding a rented shotgun or pistol and they're not holding them properly, I either move to a lane as far away as possible or if I can't move, I leave.

At various ranges down here in South Florida, just as with most other ranges across the country, one can easily find bullet hole marks and other markings (not downrange..) evidencing firearm handling stupidity and ignorance.

Zelesnik G17
01-30-2013, 13:18
I AD a 32 cal bullet through 5 walls of a mobile home! The slug stopped when it hit a washing machine. I was 12 and staying at my grandmothers place while she was in the hospital. It was a top break S&W, I didn't know how to open it, but it looked empty. I dry fired it 20- ? times, then BANG! It was a very long time ago, but the gun had one bullet in it. I can't remember the caliber, but it was smaller than a 32 shell and was stuck into the cylinder. Maybe a 32 auto?? The gun was beat and hardly worked. That was the last shot fired from that gun! I still have it, 35 years later.

Stock Perfection
01-30-2013, 20:35
This conversation is invaluable. Thank you ladies and gentleman for participating so far. Your honesty and candor is greatly appreciated.

There are some who would prefer not to participate, and that's ok- but please, read and absorb. Accidents are just that- and it can happen to YOU. There are some people who are wicked tacticool, and this is not for you. Or maybe it's really all about you...

There is some concern about defining AD ND. I agree, although I'm not sure I agree with all that I hear. It is important that we agree on terminology, but who's? The Army? Your range guy? Coast Guard? Your dad? The NRA? Gubment? Someone should really start a thread- but most certainly not me! This, however, is not the point of this conversation.

This is not a topic for new gun owners, or even long time daily carry people, it's for ANYONE who EVER handles a firearm. Some of these tales are scary as h*** and that's the point. Opinions aside, I don't see any harm in talking about safety, or in this case, the lack there of. And...

I knew I was not alone. I've seen it.

People here have been more specific than I, so I will share my story more fully.
My first unintended discharge was a 380acp that I was cleaning. Obviously missed a step. When I depressed the trigger before disassembly, bang. Operator error.
My second unintended discharge was a G21 that I was clearing before entering my housing for the night. Obviously missed a step. Depressed the trigger before reholstering, bang. Operator error.
Both were accidents. Both were negligent. Define them as you will. I was the operator, and I failed. Muzzle awareness prevented any damage or injury, but not assuming that I was aj squared away, would have prevented the entire situation both times.

Without overstating it, we may save a life discussing this subject.

Stay alert- Stay alive.

Bill Lumberg
01-31-2013, 06:30
Never had one on duty or off. Don't intend to. I can count the folks I know who've had one on one hand, and I'm including scores of co-workers who carry a gun daily. Not a subject worthy of breathless dramatics. Anyone who can't follow basic weapon handling steps isn't likely to have their life saved by reading an internet thread. Follow long established safety guidelines and you're very unlikely to ever have negligent (as noted above) or accidental discharge, and even if, against the odds, you do, you're unlikely to injure anyone.

Stock Perfection
01-31-2013, 07:56
Bill Lumberg- "breathless dramatics"? I think not sir.
If you don't believe that you can benifit from this conversation, then feel free to move on. You are under no obligation to post a comment simply because this thread exists.
More importantly your comment was clearly intended to degrade the entire premise, which is to discuss ad/nd, and as a group, to benifit from the learned lessons of others. That can be helpful. That can stick in ones' mind. That can save a life.
I applaud you for never having mistakenly discharged you weapon. Well done.

BADOS
01-31-2013, 08:09
I've been carrying concealed daily for 44 years. Never have I ever mistaken discharged a weapon in carry or cleaning. The key here is to never, never loose respect for the weapon. Always assume it's loaded.

Zelesnik G17
01-31-2013, 09:42
I had a guy I was going hunting with test his safety out by pulling the trigger while walking down a logging road together. We were side by side, him holding the rifle at "port arms" to my right, safety was off, gun went bang, my ears were ringing for an hour! A friend had a big F250 back in the day, 8" lift stiff as board. He's driving, I'm on the other side, his brother is in the middle. We break for lunch, 2 guns into the gun rack, his brother is holding his between his legs, stock on the hump. We hit a bump, truck bounced, gun bounced, BANG- took out the back window, right between our heads. He didn't unload, gun not on safe! All of my story's took place before I was 18. I have 3 boys 11-16 and I preach safety all the time. I mean, I cheated death 3 times just from guns and I'm not even into any Marine story's yet!

Ryobi
01-31-2013, 09:46
This. :thumbsup: Never had one on duty or off. Don't intend to. I can count the folks I know who've had one on one hand, and I'm including scores of co-workers who carry a gun daily. Not a subject worthy of breathless dramatics. Anyone who can't follow basic weapon handling steps isn't likely to have their life saved by reading an internet thread. Follow long established safety guidelines and you're very unlikely to ever have negligent (as noted above) or accidental discharge, and even if, against the odds, you do, you're unlikely to injure anyone.