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ArlenGunClub
01-24-2013, 20:42
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

GlockFanWA
01-24-2013, 20:45
If carrying one in the chamber of a Glock makes you uneasy, why did you get a Glock?

The Glock has an "external safety", it is called the trigger. Keep your finger off of that safety till you are ready to fire.

whoops dude
01-24-2013, 20:45
Gun hot and ready to go. Might as well carry a hammer instead if you're not gonna chamber a round. Your gun isn't gonna get mad and just decide to shoot you in the thigh.

Goosemanimis
01-24-2013, 20:49
If you are uneasy or unsure you need more time with your gun. A quality holster may also help.

SiberianErik
01-24-2013, 20:50
Finally a new topic in GG !!

if you search this has been gone over ad nausem.

It usually comes down to if you want to carry a cold chamber, you got the wrong gun.

I CC a Govt 1911 or my HK 45 cocked and locked, maybe you would feel better going that route.

tnedator
01-24-2013, 20:51
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

It's one of the most common question that new, and even longer term, gun owners ask. Bottom line, if your gun isn't ready to go when you need it, it could be the difference between life and death. That said, carrying one in the chamber does increase the risk of negligent/accidental discharge when handling/re-holstering your weapon (which you should be doing as little as possible).

The gun should have a round chambered, yet you clearly aren't comfortable with it, which means you need more time and training handling/re-holstering your weapon.

Or, you can switch from a Glock to a gun with a manual safety, but that still requires training and discipline to make it second nature to disengage the safety on the draw and re-engage the safety prior to holstering.

CynicX
01-24-2013, 20:52
Just to get it out of the way it's a magazine not clip.

If YOU are uneasy about carrying a hot gun then by all means please do not. This isn't an insult its common sense.

Personally I feel a glock should be carried with a round in the chamber (by someone that feels comfortable doing so!). The trigger is fairly heavy plus you should never ever ever rely on external safeties. If you are pointing the weapon at something then it should be a target or something you don't care if it gets shot (ground, etc).

Three-Five-Seven
01-24-2013, 20:53
A proper holster is an essential piece of the safety mechanism of a Glock pistol.

If, after acquiring a proper holster you still feel uncomfortable, get a trigger block for your Glock.

If you're still uncomfortable after that, you need a Smith & Wesson revolver.

Dcrabtree
01-24-2013, 20:54
I carry one in the chamber. Period. But, if you are uneasy, a great way to start, is with a full mag/no chambered but cocked. Do this for as long as it takes to get comfortable with your gun and holster. After a while, you will find the trigger doesn't magically go off. Then, once you are comfortable, put one in the pipe.

OhioGlock90
01-24-2013, 20:55
In a real life situation where you would need to draw and fire your weapon you will not have time to rack one Into the chamber! Most SD shootings happen in a few feet and within seconds. I read that if someone is coming at you with a knife and they are within 4 feet when you start to draw (with a loaded chamber) you will lose that match. Do some research online and you will see why you should carry with one in the pipe. There is even YouTube videos of people pulling a gun with out one in the chamber and it costing them.


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DWARREN123
01-24-2013, 20:55
I carry one in the chamber, may take a lifetime to rack the slide when needed.
I have arthritis and carpel tunnel and sometimes it is hard to rack a slide when I have time and am not under pressure so will not test it when I am under pressure.

Scrappy
01-24-2013, 20:56
If you have to ask this question, then your not ready for it!

ArlenGunClub
01-24-2013, 20:57
Thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. My CHL instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "I'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so I thought it was a big deal with Glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and I'll carry it ready to go.

robhic
01-24-2013, 21:00
OR ............ Carry the gun without chambering a round but cocked. After you get comfortable that the weapon won't go off, maybe you'll feel better about it. It worked for me. :embarassed:

Bren
01-24-2013, 21:01
I wonder why nobody ever thought to ask this before?

I carry with a round in the chamber. If I don't want the gun to fire, I don't pulll the trigger. If you can't do that, get some OC spray and a rape whistle.

Most police officers in America carry a Glock, every one of them carry it with a round in the chamber. Many of them d0on't even shoot as a hobby - the gun is just work equipment - yet they mostly manage not to shoot themselves. Those that do shoot themselves do it by pointing the gun at themselves and pulling the trigger.

GlockFanWA
01-24-2013, 21:05
My CHL instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "I'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so I thought it was a big deal with Glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and I'll carry it ready to go.

The instructor needs some instructing IMO.

tnedator
01-24-2013, 21:05
In a real life situation where you would need to draw and fire your weapon you will not have time to rack one Into the chamber! Most SD shootings happen in a few feet and within seconds. I read that if someone is coming at you with a knife and they are within 4 feet when you start to draw (with a loaded chamber) you will lose that match. Do some research online and you will see why you should carry with one in the pipe. There is even YouTube videos of people pulling a gun with out one in the chamber and it costing them.


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Four feet, you are beyond lost, unless you can fend the person off with one hand long enough to draw. As has been widely discussed, the average person can cover 21 feet in about 2 seconds or less. The vast majority people would be hard pressed to draw and get a round on target in 2 seconds.

This brings up several factors:

First, the importance of practicing over and over your draw and target acquisition (with an unloaded or practice blue/red gun of course). This includes drawing, pointing and directional shooting from the point of your hip, while holding off a defender with your off hand.

Second, the need to have a round in the chamber, because while it's difficult to draw from concealment and get on target in two seconds, it's nearly impossible to do so while also racking the slide during that time frame.

Third, situational awareness. If an attacker is within four feet, and decides to attack with a knife, club, etc., you will be hard pressed to survive the encounter. Most of us are not aware enough of our surroundings on a constant basis, to work hard to keep the distance between us and suspicious/shady individuals, whether that means crossing to the other side of the street, taking another route, or some other action to keep the distance and buy yourself precious seconds if you are attacked.

allegro
01-24-2013, 21:09
G23 in condition 1.

One in the pipe and 13 in the magazine.

bennie1986
01-24-2013, 21:10
Load it!

caponec2
01-24-2013, 21:14
there is ONLY ONE reason i carry 1 in the chamber, because it doesnt work reliably with 2

SJ 40
01-24-2013, 21:18
Duh ! SJ 40

vandros
01-24-2013, 21:18
I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this. Some might argue: Practice keeping the f@$#&ng finger off the trigger. And, I do. But, I want an extra precaution for the flight/fight episodes.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a very useful bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.

janice6
01-24-2013, 21:18
A neighbor girl has a permit to carry (she got hers with my family a while ago) and told me she was very uncomfortable about carrying a loaded gun (she has a S&W 642 .38 Special) She said she was fearful that since she wasn't used to carrying the gun, she worried she might do something to cause it to fire unintentionally. She has served a hitch in the Air Force so she is hardly timid.

She works in health care and goes to some seedy areas of town and has many shifts during the dark hours. I worry about her unarmed. She is our "fourth daughter, but by another mother". I suggested she make a special effort to carry her pistol unloaded, all the time she is home, everyday, in a proper holster, until she feels comfortable with it, her trigger discipline and handling of it. When she is comfortable that it is becoming second nature to deal with it properly and safely, she can then do the same with it now loaded.

She also asked to come with me to the range often, to gain more confidence in her ability with it. This is a great excuse for me to go shoot also. I love to go shooting. My wife, not so much.

When she believes it is safe for her to carry a loaded pistol all the time, carry it outside every waking moment from then on. You will get so that it is a physical constant, an extension of your body, and you will feel it is no hindrance at all in daily functions, but you always know it is there when needed.

If you live with your firearm, you must respect it, and the responsibility that goes along with it. Then you will not worry about unintended consequences.

Dooger
01-24-2013, 21:21
I carry one in the chamber. Period. But, if you are uneasy, a great way to start, is with a full mag/no chambered but cocked. Do this for as long as it takes to get comfortable with your gun and holster. After a while, you will find the trigger doesn't magically go off. Then, once you are comfortable, put one in the pipe.

Yup!

Since the OP is new to CC, this is a must read:


Amazon.com: Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry (9781440232671): Massad Ayoob: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Gqfoh9sEL.@@AMEPARAM@@51Gqfoh9sEL

deadmanglocking
01-24-2013, 21:24
OR ............ Carry the gun without chambering a round but cocked. After you get comfortable that the weapon won't go off, maybe you'll feel better about it. It worked for me. :embarassed:

This is a good tactic for someone that is uneasy with a round in the chamber( at home of course). I was a little hesitant to start carrying a 1911 due to never have been exposed to them before. A few days of this and I realized it was fine and I went hot after that. Same deal with any type of firearm you aren't used to IMHO. I did the same with my first Glock and soon realized the trigger isn't going to pull itself if you have a good holster that will prevent trigger snags.

Dogbite
01-24-2013, 21:27
I have been carrying like 20 yrs with one in the chamber. You want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible. If your having to pull the gun, then chamber a round, your already stacking the odds in favor of your attacker. Its all training. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

arshooterone
01-24-2013, 21:27
I carry one in the chamber. Period. But, if you are uneasy, a great way to start, is with a full mag/no chambered but cocked. Do this for as long as it takes to get comfortable with your gun and holster. After a while, you will find the trigger doesn't magically go off. Then, once you are comfortable, put one in the pipe.

My advice exactly.

trlcavscout
01-24-2013, 21:29
Practice holstering and carrying. Like said carry it empty but cocked and see what it takes to pull the trigger. Dont use cheap leather or nylon holsters. Once you get used to carrying it loaded around the house and range you will be set. I carry every gun with a round in the chamber whether it has a safety or not. I have been carrying concealed daily for 10 years and I still dont take it for granted, but I am confident in the way I carry. Better safe then sorry.

Lone Wolf8634
01-24-2013, 21:42
I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.

So....... can you draw your weapon and rack the slide with one hand? In a reasonable amount of time, say.... 2 seconds or less?

Could you rack the slide after having fended off a blow from a baseball bat with your left arm, that is now broken in one or more places?

Could you rack the slide with one hand when the lunatic attacking you has stuck his knife into the meaty part of your forearm because you had to block it from entering your chest, and he's now jerking the knife all over hell and gone trying to get it out for another try?

Honestly, I'm not flaming you, i want you to carry however you're comfortable. Just want to give you some scenarios to think about. There is a real chance that in any self defense situation you'll be injured, and who knows what part of your body may or may not be working properly.:cool:

vandros
01-24-2013, 21:55
So....... can you draw your weapon and rack the slide with one hand? In a reasonable amount of time, say.... 2 seconds or less?

Could you rack the slide after having fended off a blow from a baseball bat with your left arm, that is now broken in one or more places?

Could you rack the slide with one hand when the lunatic attacking you has stuck his knife into the meaty part of your forearm because you had to block it from entering your chest, and he's now jerking the knife all over hell and gone trying to get it out for another try?

Honestly, I'm not flaming you, i want you to carry however you're comfortable. Just want to give you some scenarios to think about. There is a real chance that in any self defense situation you'll be injured, and who knows what part of your body may or may not be working properly.:cool:

These are good scenarios to ponder... I do practice one-handed chambering - catching the steep-angled back metal sight on the belt, or other clothing I'm wearing. I would concede that this is not the situation you want to find yourself in...

I think some of the scenarios you mentioned can be mitigated with situational awareness: being mindful of the corners, low-light areas, etc. Not all scenarios, but some. But, I guess nothing will effectively address every scenario - unless you are willing to always carry a gun with 33-round mag and have it always in your hand and always with cartridge in the chamber 24/7... :)

M 7
01-24-2013, 22:04
Only one way to CCW- and that is, one in the chamber.

Quality training can alleviate any concerns and instill competence and confidence.

Poppa Bear
01-24-2013, 22:04
#1 is to get a good holster. Be careful of any that have a thumb snap. The reason is that holsters with thumb snaps have had the retention strap fall through the trigger guard during the holstering process. The gun is then pushed into the holster where the strap presses against the trigger.

I use either a Galco Concealable or a Sparks VM-II for my G-22. I have carried with a loaded chamber for over 20 years that way and have yet to experience the gun going off so I think you are pretty safe. As long as you do not make it a habit to draw and holster your gun several times a day it will be a non issue. If you want to practice your drawing and holstering capabilities, then unload the gun first. Never practice your gun handling with a hot gun.

Lone Wolf8634
01-24-2013, 22:05
These are good scenarios to ponder... I do practice one-handed chambering - catching the steep-angled back metal sight on the belt, or other clothing I'm wearing. I would concede that this is not the situation you want to find yourself in...

I think some of the scenarios you mentioned can be mitigated with situational awareness: being mindful of the corners, low-light areas, etc. Not all scenarios, but some. But, I guess nothing will effectively address every scenario - unless you are willing to always carry a gun with 33-round mag in your hand with cartridge in the chamber 24/7... :)

As always, its the individuals choice of where the line is drawn. Where you feel comfortable is up to you.

Personally, I leave my gun in my holster instead of my hand, the 2 extra mags are on my belt or my ankle for a total of 46 rounds (3 mags plus one in the tube). So not a 33 round mag in my hand....but close!!:rofl:

vandros
01-24-2013, 22:12
As always, its the individuals choice of where the line is drawn. Where you feel comfortable is up to you.



Yep, I agree, your preference should come from your own threat assessments and assessments of your abilities and where you draw a line between being perfectly protected against BGs and having a perfect prevention of accidental discharges.

bha0198
01-24-2013, 22:17
Your gun isn't gonna get mad and just decide to shoot you in the thigh.

That is hilarious.


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NCHeel
01-24-2013, 22:35
These are good scenarios to ponder... I do practice one-handed chambering - catching the steep-angled back metal sight on the belt, or other clothing I'm wearing. I would concede that this is not the situation you want to find yourself in...

I think some of the scenarios you mentioned can be mitigated with situational awareness: being mindful of the corners, low-light areas, etc. Not all scenarios, but some. But, I guess nothing will effectively address every scenario - unless you are willing to always carry a gun with 33-round mag and have it always in your hand and always with cartridge in the chamber 24/7... :)To add to the scenarios. You can draw and rack while laying on your back and it takes no extra movement or time? How about when there is no time to present your weapon and firing from the side immediately after drawing is the only option? Your weak arm is incapacitated because someone else got off the first shot? You're carrying a child? You feel 100% ready in ideal situations. Ideal situations rarely happen in a gun fight. It is up to you though. My advise is go take a defensive pistol class where they put you in real life scenarios and see how adequate your system is.

NCHeel
01-24-2013, 22:38
Oh and OP, GLOCKS have mags not clips. One of my pet peeves (along with a lot of others).

Magazine vs Clip - YouTube

NCHeel
01-24-2013, 22:40
and having a perfect prevention of accidental discharges.Properly maintained GLOCKS do not accidentally discharge, they are negligently discharged.

gunowner1
01-24-2013, 23:25
Always one in the chamber all the time. Put it in the holster in the morning loaded and in the safe at night loaded.Only time to unload is when you switch carry ammo to range ammo and for cleaning.

Iceman cHucK
01-24-2013, 23:41
If you're not comfortable with one in the chamber you can always just keep one round in your pocket like Barney Fife.

Opie 1 Kenopie
01-25-2013, 00:07
These are good scenarios to ponder... I do practice one-handed chambering - catching the steep-angled back metal sight on the belt, or other clothing I'm wearing. I would concede that this is not the situation you want to find yourself in...

I think some of the scenarios you mentioned can be mitigated with situational awareness: being mindful of the corners, low-light areas, etc. Not all scenarios, but some. But, I guess nothing will effectively address every scenario - unless you are willing to always carry a gun with 33-round mag and have it always in your hand and always with cartridge in the chamber 24/7... :)

Or more realistically vandros, how about e possibility that your weak hand might be busy doing something else? Like calling for help on a cellphone, opening a door, holding back a child or your wife. Pushing said loved one out of the way. Honestly folks. I fear for those of you who are so scared of their Glocks having an "accidental discharge" that you'd carry the dang thing without ammo ready. As a full time cop and LE weapons/tactics instructor, this is one of the most irresponsible methods of weapons handling I've heard of. I've been shooting since I was 5 or 6 (about 37 years now) and I was taught how to safely operate a lot of different guns. I have never had an AD. And I've never carried an empty chamber. OP, your CHL instructor is a clown and would be laughed off the range even here in nutty tree-hugging California. I wish you both the best, but fear for anyone who operates this way. You might want to consider the above-mentioned spray and rape whistle.

SleeperSS
01-25-2013, 00:15
Four feet, you are beyond lost, unless you can fend the person off with one hand long enough to draw. As has been widely discussed, the average person can cover 21 feet in about 2 seconds or less. The vast majority people would be hard pressed to draw and get a round on target in 2 seconds.



Our county Sheriff's standard is 25'

Police305
01-25-2013, 00:47
I ALWAYS carry one in the chamber. You might not always have time to draw your weapon then cock it. I feel that having my G19 locked, cocked, and ready to rock is an advantage!

TheGlockTalker
01-25-2013, 00:59
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

If you feel uneasy about one in the chamber, carry your gun for the first few days/weeks...as long as it takes with a full magazine and nothing in the chamber.

As to carrying one in the chamber, yes, definitely something I do.
Why?
Unless you can guarantee that anyone trying to attack me will give me 5-10 second notice and will stand there and wait for me to react I will carry with one in the chamber.
That's right.....of course no one will do that.
So....yes one in the chamber.
Imagine 2-3 seconds of reaction time, you reading the situation and what's the right thing to do, are innocent people near etc. then 3-4 seconds for drawing and getting your weapon on the target, that is if you're good, plus another 2 seconds for you to rack the slide.

I'll stay with one in the chamber.
However don't do it until you start feeling ok about it and get very very used to your Glock.
For example that guy who recently shot him self in the foot or *****, I forgot, in Walmart while he was reaching for his wallet would have never fired that shot if it wasn't for that round in the chamber.

Made in Austria
01-25-2013, 01:06
I did carry mine with one in the chamber, till my little daughter got bigger and bigger and started huging my leg everytime I came home. I don't know, it just didn't feel right knowing that the barrel with a round in it ready to go was pointing at her head, eventough I knew that it won't go off without pulling the trigger. I just couldn't carry it anymore with one in the chamber.

JakeFromStateFarm
01-25-2013, 01:27
Simple, if you don't want to or are skeptical about carrying with you're glock chambered. Don't carry a gun. What would be the point? U would have to draw rack the slide then fire. Against drawing and firing.

If you got into a gun fight with a guy that had his gun locked and ready to rock(god forbid that ever happen to any of us) and you had a cold chamber. Who do u think would win?

D.S.Brown
01-25-2013, 05:36
Those of you, (referencing the universal "you" throughout this post), that carry unchambered, learn about the Tueller drill. The short version is that from 7 yards, (21ft), a reasonably healthy person can cover that distance in a second and be plunging a knife in your chest repeatedly, by the time you drew your gun. It does NOT factor in having to rack the slide to chamber a round. Oh and as mentioned that's at 7 yards (21 feet). Research tells me your average armed encounter the VAST majority of time will occur at 3 to 4 yards, (9 to 12 feet).

So as your struggling to fend off an attack, possibly after being stabbed with a knife, pummeled with a club, or hit with a closed fist, (presumably by a rather large person), your going to have the presence of mind to, under GREAT stress, manually rack that slide by hooking the rear sight to your belt and pushing down? Not even close to likely when you consider the latter arguably is a fine motor skill, that on the calm of a practice range while standing up is not the easiest task to perform.

In the above scenario your gun WILL become a club! And in the above scenario we haven't even considered multiple attackers.

As far as CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES, where you've elected to use the trigger as a finger rest, and violate the safety rules, well this is a training issue where you commit yourself to abiding by the safety rules 110,000% of the time you are even in the presence of a gun, notably KEEPING YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE AIMING ON TARGET READY TO SHOOT.

The ONLY "accidental discharge" is perhaps when you get klutzy and accidentally fumble a gun in your hands, drop it and it discharges upon impact with the floor/ground. Most high quality guns made in the last thirty years have at least one, but more likely two internal passive safeties to mitigate against this. I might even allow for it happening during a reholstering in a holster that has some design flaw. This is VERY RARE. Likewise if in reholstering your finger is resting on the trigger and the gun discharges, you have committed a CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. Anytime a finger is remotely on a trigger takes away from the possibility of an "accidental discharge."

The carriage and use of firearms requires a heightened sense of awareness, especially when handling a gun, and keeping your finger off the trigger until on target ready to shoot. If you find yourself letting your finger drift onto the trigger when not ready to shoot, and you absolutely cannot make yourself aware of this eventually tragic habit, then I submit, as I tell my students, that perhaps you'll be better served with pepper spray. I don't mean this as a slight or insult, but as strong advice to keep you and others safe. I see people at the range all the time clueless as to where there finger is, doing administrative reloads with finger on the trigger, and racking the slide with finger on the trigger. These two are the most common. If you do these things you are UNSAFE with a gun. If you are clueless that you do these things with a gun you are DOUBLY UNSAFE!

Carrying with a round chambered and preventing criminally negligent discharges are a matter of taking personal responsibility for seeking training lightyears beyond whatever intro to handguns and or concealed handgun class you've taken.

I'm talking about a 1 or 2 day defensive handgun class with a reputable trainer, (I didn't say famous just reputable), who makes a large part of their living doing this. This class will teach you how to shoot and manipulate your gun under stress, and instill good habits. You'll usually shoot more than a few hundred rounds in the class. Of course the class will likely cost more than a few hundred dollars if it is multi day class, and that doesn't factor in travel, meals and bullets.

And no, having your a relative and/or friend that was in the military and/or a police officer to show you how to operate your gun is a BAD idea, unless that persons job in the military and/or police was to TRAIN people how to use handguns, and they had taken/received highly specialized training to LEARN how to instruct people. Again I see it all the time on the range someone with military and or law enforcement with marginal handgun skills, passing along these "skills" to a clueless new shooter. The blind leading the blind. Just because someone was in the infantry, (I was), doesn't mean they know how to shoot a handgun effectively. The same for law enforcement. The county sheriffs office I worked for had us qualify with a Glock 17 once a year, didn't matter if you worked the jail, served high risk warrants, or worked our inter agency drug task force, you qualified ONCE a year. The knowledge I really gained on how to shoot, and teach people, I sought out and mostly paid for myself, save for an instructor certification from a gun range I still work at part time.

If you can afford a gun, and a concealed handgun class, you can afford to take a class, and learn how to actually operate your gun. How can you afford not to? At the end of the day if you don't seek professional training to increase your skill set, and practice those skills frequently then you are fooling yourself in believing you'll magically prevail in the gunfight you've never trained for, AND you'll continue to be UNSAFE.

And all of this was the candy coated version.

Best,

Dave

happyguy
01-25-2013, 05:46
Four feet, you are beyond lost, unless you can fend the person off with one hand long enough to draw. As has been widely discussed, the average person can cover 21 feet in about 2 seconds or less. The vast majority people would be hard pressed to draw and get a round on target in 2 seconds.

This brings up several factors:

First, the importance of practicing over and over your draw and target acquisition (with an unloaded or practice blue/red gun of course). This includes drawing, pointing and directional shooting from the point of your hip, while holding off a defender with your off hand.

Second, the need to have a round in the chamber, because while it's difficult to draw from concealment and get on target in two seconds, it's nearly impossible to do so while also racking the slide during that time frame.

Third, situational awareness. If an attacker is within four feet, and decides to attack with a knife, club, etc., you will be hard pressed to survive the encounter. Most of us are not aware enough of our surroundings on a constant basis, to work hard to keep the distance between us and suspicious/shady individuals, whether that means crossing to the other side of the street, taking another route, or some other action to keep the distance and buy yourself precious seconds if you are attacked.

Tueller drill is not stupid, but it is also not reality. And FWIW, the guys that are getting sliced and diced performing this drill are carrying chambered. :whistling:

It's just like those martial arts demo's where one guy throws a single punch and freezes while the defender works his way around him throwing kicks and punches until he administers the coup de grace.

It's just a chance to demonstrate some techniques with a live target that people can see. It has nothing to do with actual self-defense.

Tueller drill is the same. It demonstrates how fast someone can cover 21 feet. That is all.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with your post. It just stimulated my brain cell.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

danysw
01-25-2013, 06:02
Carrying a gun unchambered is like carrying a hammer in your holster. As other said before, start carrying with a full mag and unchambered for a couple of days, then start carrying in your house chambered for a few days too, when you fill comfortable go outside and live your life as usual. Other thing that is very important for carrying is having a GOOD HOLSTER, do not save money buying a holster, it is as important as a gun itself, many accidents occur because of holsters failures.

happyguy
01-25-2013, 06:06
Carrying a gun unchambered is like carrying a hammer in your holster.

This is one of those utterly ridiculous statements that gets repeated over and over by people who aren't thinking about what they are actually saying.

You can't rack the slide on a hammer and then shoot fifteen rounds at various targets. A gun without a round in the chamber is still a gun and a hammer is, well...just a hammer.

I know it's confusing, but try to keep up.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

kaech
01-25-2013, 06:49
The instructor needs some instructing IMO.

Yep the instructor is a glock hater

bennie1986
01-25-2013, 07:04
I did carry mine with one in the chamber, till my little daughter got bigger and bigger and started huging my leg everytime I came home. I don't know, it just didn't feel right knowing that the barrel with a round in it ready to go was pointing at her head, eventough I knew that it won't go off without pulling the trigger. I just couldn't carry it anymore with one in the chamber.

I have three kids two of which are old enough to do this. I have successfully trained my oldest to stay away from my right side. With the younger of the two i have to always exercise exceptional situational awareness until she learns.

My kids are one of the biggest reasons i keep one in the chamber. I always have one hand tied up carrying one of them or at least holding their hand. I wouldn't ever have enough time to even get a proper two handed grip on my gun much less load the thing. Come to think of it i need to practice one handed shooting alot more when go out next time.

danysw
01-25-2013, 07:08
This is one of those utterly ridiculous statements that gets repeated over and over by people who aren't thinking about what they are actually saying.

You can't rack the slide on a hammer and then shoot fifteen rounds at various targets. A gun without a round in the chamber is still a gun and a hammer is, well...just a hammer.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)


Maybe the one that is making ridiculous and brainless statements is you. When I said “carrying an unchambered gun is like carrying a hammer” I was using a simile which is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things. Of course a hammer is a hammer and a Glock is a Glock. You need to think more before writing comments on others thoughts. Be respectful and you will be respected. :steamed:

HexHead
01-25-2013, 07:10
Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.

bennie1986
01-25-2013, 07:15
Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.

Some people do! Its just as stupid but they carry with the empty hole at the top so the hammer doesn't get "bumped" and go off.

ronin.45
01-25-2013, 07:20
Loaded. Always!

RichardB
01-25-2013, 07:24
Depending on the threat level carrying with no rounds chambered is OK by me. If I don't have time to rack the slide after displaying my weapon I was probably not meant to win that day.

Where are you carrying?

I don't believe that hollywood style quick draw shootouts among sober civilians are real.

Probably should be using feet while finding weapon. Paralysis of feet while focusing on holstered gun makes one a stationary target.

Of course each of us must make up their own mind and readjust actions as the situation changes.

wacopolumbo
01-25-2013, 07:27
Wow, such a heated discussion. For me, always one in the chamber and a carry gun WITHOUT an external safety. I've been trained by some of the best and I am a trainer myself and I personally don't think I would have the wherewithal to reliably disengage a safety in a close encounter (read phonebooth distance) much less have to chamber a round. But that's ME, it's not the same for everyone. Some folks practice religiously with their manual safety and believe they will be able to find it and disengage it when the poop hits the fan. I'm a simple guy and like to keep things simple, that's why when I am off duty I carry a glock, I have tried all the rest over the years and the Glock keeps it simple, no manual safety, no decocker to get in the way of my thumbs forward grip (darn duty weapon). That said, I have taken a liking to my wifes Beretta Nano. That thing doesn't have a slide release, a great pocket gun!

For example, my wife likes her Beretta's in the "FS" configuration with a decocker/safety. I like mine to be in the "G" congfiguration with only a decocker. To each their one.

If the OP feels he can chamber a round, then that's his comfort zone. As an Air Force guy, the other services are surprised that our regulations direct us to have our M9s with a round in the chamber and the weapon on fire when carried (I carry an M11, but the same applies, round in the chamber - no manual safety).

tnedator
01-25-2013, 07:54
Tueller drill is not stupid, but it is also not reality. And FWIW, the guys that are getting sliced and diced performing this drill are carrying chambered. :whistling:

It's just like those martial arts demo's where one guy throws a single punch and freezes while the defender works his way around him throwing kicks and punches until he administers the coup de grace.

It's just a chance to demonstrate some techniques with a live target that people can see. It has nothing to do with actual self-defense.

Tueller drill is the same. It demonstrates how fast someone can cover 21 feet. That is all.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with your post. It just stimulated my brain cell.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Actually, I don't see how your martial arts example applies. I guess your confusion was that you focused on the Tueller drill, which I don't believe I even referenced by name, rather than the results of the experiment, as well as many followup tests.

For instance, for a while, during his courses, Mas Ayoob would have class members run 7 yards and time it. He found that even elderly and somewhat mobility challenged students would cover the distance in about 2 seconds. The young, fit students might be more like 1.5 seconds.

That knowledge has nothing to do with fake martial art encounters, it has to do with having the information you need to properly train and more important, understand the importance of situational awareness and actively avoid putting yourself in positions where you can be attacked from close distance (I realize this last part is challenging to say the least).

As to your last statement about the Tueller drill doing nothing more than showing how quickly someone covers 21 feet? Um, yea, I think that was the whole and only point of my post.



The ONLY "accidental discharge" is perhaps when you get klutzy and accidentally fumble a gun in your hands, drop it and it discharges upon impact with the floor/ground. Most high quality guns made in the last thirty years have at least one, but more likely two internal passive safeties to mitigate against this. I might even allow for it happening during a reholstering in a holster that has some design flaw. This is VERY RARE. Likewise if in reholstering your finger is resting on the trigger and the gun discharges, you have committed a CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. Anytime a finger is remotely on a trigger takes away from the possibility of an "accidental discharge."


Well, the other "accidental discharge" that we hear of from time to time, which is not related to using the trigger as a finger rest, is getting something stuck in the trigger. Granted, this is a form of negligence, but much different than accidentally pulling the trigger.

It's having a pull cord from a jacket, thumb break or other piece of equipment/clothing get between the gun and holster, and hooking the trigger, during reholstering.

glock2740
01-25-2013, 08:07
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
Up to a few years ago, I didn't carry one in the chamber myself. I practiced ALOT (with an empty gun of course) drawing and racking and had it down to a very fluid motion kind of like quick drawing with a single action revolver and felt good about carrying that way. Until I really started thinking of many different situations that I could be in, where this technique would be virtually useless and put my life or the life of my loved ones on the line. I always carried with the chamber empty, but the hammer was cocked. I did this just to see if I ever could accidentally make the trigger go off, without a round being chambered. I won't say that is impossible to make this happen, but it is very highly unlikely that it would. Carry with the hammer cocked around the house, with and empty chamber and see for your self how you feel about it. If you choose to practice, and I mean put some serious time into becoming fluid with a draw and rack motion, then that's ok. But the best way IMO, is for you to keep it chambered. You will feel better about it the longer you do it and you will feel better about knowing there's one in there for when/if the SH'sTF someday and you don't have time or the ability to draw and rack. And welcome to GT. :wavey:

HexHead
01-25-2013, 08:07
I have one Glock I keep without a round in the chamber. It's the 17 in the bedroom with a light attached. If I hear something go bump in the night downstairs, I have plenty of time to rack the slide before checking it out. I keep it with the trigger pulled, so I know it's empty.

I also keep a revolver closer to hand if I need something quicker.

conpro
01-25-2013, 08:12
Only takes a second to rack the slide, better safe than sorry.

Pilotdude3407
01-25-2013, 08:12
One in the chamber at all times. Do it for a little while then you will forget about and stop worrying.

With that being said, I couldn't care less what you did. I don't feel safe unless I have one hot and ready to go. If you can (or if you can't) get one chambered in time is really no consequence to me...it's ultimately your life (and maybe your family's) you are protecting.

LuckyG
01-25-2013, 08:32
However you do it, you have to get your comfort level up on carrying chambered. A number of folks mention the time required to chamber as a negative and I agree with that. However, there are two other reasons not to carry empty chamber:

1) Close quarters struggle with one hand occupied fending off attacker.

2) Short stroking or riding the slide trying to get a live round into the chamber. It can fail to pick up the cartridge from the mag or it can cause a partial failure to feed.

I don't personally care how somebody else carries, but they should be aware of the downsides. IMO. either one of the above happening is more likely than the gun going off by itself. Not trying to diss anybody elses choices.

Finally, if anybody says that they practice this on the range and it doesn't happen, fine (for them). If they can guarantee me that it will never happen on the street, I'll let them buy me a lottery ticket, pick a winning stock or tell me the magic number on the roulette wheel. Things get a little different when the SHTF and you can smell the perps bad breath. Which is kinda why you carry in the first place - right?

Beanie-Bean
01-25-2013, 08:33
AGC,

Congrats on the new plastic? Did you do your Wal Mart walk already? Haha...one of the rights of passage.

1. Trigger Safety
2. Firing Pin Safety
3. Drop Safety

The Glocks are just fine, and won't fire unless that trigger is pulled back.

I recommend checking out the holsters from our fellow Texans at Comp-Tac. My favorite is their MTAC holster for IWB, followed by their paddle holster for OWB. Both cover the trigger so that the trigger doesn't get pulled accidentally. You still have to do your part to make sure that you're holstering cleanly, with no obstructions, like a string from a jacket, etc.

I carry hot, but not in the +1 configuration. I'll top off the magazines, and strip one off the top, to leave the magazine down by one. I also carry spare magazines.

Welcome to GT!

proguide
01-25-2013, 08:35
Research the 21 foot rule and get back to us

tnedator
01-25-2013, 08:41
AGC,

Congrats on the new plastic? Did you do your Wal Mart walk already? Haha...one of the rights of passage.

1. Trigger Safety
2. Firing Pin Safety
3. Drop Safety

The Glocks are just fine, and won't fire unless that trigger is pulled back.

I recommend checking out the holsters from our fellow Texans at Comp-Tac. My favorite is their MTAC holster for IWB, followed by their paddle holster for OWB. Both cover the trigger so that the trigger doesn't get pulled accidentally. You still have to do your part to make sure that you're holstering cleanly, with no obstructions, like a string from a jacket, etc.

I carry hot, but not in the +1 configuration. I'll top off the magazines, and strip one off the top, to leave the magazine down by one. I also carry spare magazines.

Welcome to GT!

Just curious, why not +1? Do you just feel it's an unnecessary risk handling the weapon after you've chambered the round (removing mag, adding round, reseating mag?) or is there another reason?

Obviously, going +1 is not as important in a G17, G19 or XDm or the like, compared to say a PM9 or other single stack, lower capacity gun.

Wake County Glockman
01-25-2013, 08:45
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.


Woooo you said a bad word.:wow:

vandros
01-25-2013, 08:48
I'm obviously in minority in my position that one should not chamber when carrying, and that's fine. A lot of knowledgeable folks disagree with me. A lot of knowledgeable folks (i.e., Israeli military) agree with me.

It seems folks disagreeing with me assume they will operate their firearm when adrenaline dump begins in exactly the same way that they do during their range training. The maxim I agree with is: You fall back on your training when SHTF and you are attacked. BUT, this does not mean you'll perform EXACTLY like you've trained when flight/fight reflex takes a hold of you. Just ask all those police officers who had NDs when placed under stress.

Racking slide takes me about 0.2 second, and it takes place while the gun is being moved to target. If you so concerned about this 0.2 second, perhaps you should have bullet-proof vest on, have helmet on, have an AK47 with 100-rounds drum with round chambered and have the weapon always in your hands ready to go. And even that will not address all possible scenarios fully.

Again, all your guys' scenarios are valid and definitely worth pondering. And careful analysis should always be part of each of our individual threat assessment. I see how you all want to be prepared for these scenarios, and I appreciate that. But round in the chamber does not address all possible scenarios. If we follow the logic of wanting to address every possible contingency, then having a loaded gun in the hand is even better than simply having a holstered weapon with round chambered. Having an AK in your hands is even better than Glock. Sitting in a tank is even better than having an AK. See where our natural desire to address all possible contingencies can lead us?

Conventional wisdom here seems to be that a round should always be chambered when carrying glocks. It also seems conventional wisdom that NDs are a normal occurrence when under stress - especially when holstering/unhostering. I just can't accept this. After reading numerous volumes on the matter, participating in training, and carefully evaluating my options, I choose not to chamber. I just don't feel like having my hot-loaded 10mm HP travelling down my leg would improve my day - as a result of me underestimating the intensity of physiological and psychological response to deadly threat.

Toetag
01-25-2013, 08:58
There are few things in the world less useless than an unloaded weapon.

Except **** on a boar hog perhaps.

Beanie-Bean
01-25-2013, 09:01
Just curious, why not +1? Do you just feel it's an unnecessary risk handling the weapon after you've chambered the round (removing mag, adding round, reseating mag?) or is there another reason?

Obviously, going +1 is not as important in a G17, G19 or XDm or the like, compared to say a PM9 or other single stack, lower capacity gun.

tnedator,

I rotate through several handguns for my carry rotation, and all different calibers. When my "CCW for the week" goes back into the safe, I eject the round and return it to the magazine I had in the gun. I found that I'd have to have an extra step in swapping firearms, because there would be an extra round. It was just easier for me to run with a dedicated magazine for each pistol and to strip the top round off when going hot. Since I'm not trying to save that carry ammo forever, I'll cycle new rounds in when I've chambered/ejected that top round a few times. Last thing I need to deal with is setback.

I carry a spare magazine, and sometimes multiple if the CCW is a smaller one, like my SIG P238HD. All of my Glocks use the smaller/flush magazines, with a full-size spare.

tnedator
01-25-2013, 09:01
I'm obviously in minority in my position that one should not chamber when carrying, and that's fine. A lot of knowledgeable folks disagree with me. A lot of knowledgeable folks (i.e., Israeli military) agree with me.

It seems folks disagreeing with me assume they will operate their firearm when adrenaline dump begins in exactly the same way that they do during their range training. The maxim I agree with is: You fall back on your training when SHTF and you are attacked. BUT, this does not mean you'll perform EXACTLY like you've trained when flight/fight reflex takes a hold of you. Just ask all those police officers who had NDs when placed under stress.

Racking slide takes me about 0.2 seconds, and its takes place while the gun is being moved to target. If you are worried about 0.2 seconds slow down, perhaps you should have bullet-proof vest on, have helmet on, have AK47 with 100-rounds drum with round chambered and have the weapon always in your hands. And even that will not address all possible scenarios fully.

As I said, majority disagrees with me. It appears conventional wisdom is that round should always be chambered when carrying glocks. It also seems conventional wisdom that NDs are a normal occurrance when under stress - especially when holstering/unhostering. After reading numerous volumes on the matter, participating in training, and carefully evaluating my options, I choose not to chamber. I just don't feel like having my hot-loaded 10mm HP travelling down my leg would improve my day. But, that's just me.

You appear to be defensive here. It's important to note that few if any of us recommend someone who isn't comfortable and properly trained should carry a gun properly, which is ready to be used if your life depends on it.

Obviously, you could get better training or switch to a gun with a manual safety (i'm not a big fan of this, since whether you "think" the safety is on or not, you shouldn't be touching the trigger, so the basic rules apply regardless).

However, if your comfort level is to err on the side of extra safety, either because you don't feel comfortable or for philosophical reasons, that's your choice.

We all make decisions on a regular basis that impact how quickly we can deploy a gun in self defense. Where we carry (appendix, 4:00, SOB) or how we carry, OWB, IWB, belly band or smart carry type holster, all impact how quickly the weapon can be drawn when needed.

So, from a purely "time" stand point, if you opt for a minimally covered, fast access holster, with no round chambered, you could get the gun on target as fast or faster than someone that's wearing a gun in an IWB, tucked under a dress shirt, or in a smart carry type holster.

Of course, as discussed, if you need to use your off hand to fend off an attacker as you are drawing, something that is a VERY real likelihood and why most self defense training includes such drills, as most bad guys don't announce their intentions from 10 yards away, then you now have to fumble to rack the slide on your belt or as mentioned, use it as a club, or stop defending/keeping distance with your off hand, as you choose to use it to rack your slide.

It's not just a time factor, it's the knowledge that you have to be in an "ideal" self defense situation to be guaranteed the ability to rack the slide to chamber a round. Lots of self defense situations, possibly most, won't give you the time and two free hands to draw and rack as your plan calls for.

Anyway, I started this post with the intention of saying that everyone draws their line somewhere. You've drawn your line on the side of ultimate safety, and that's your right. You shouldn't feel the need to defend it in such a strained way. If you feel safer that way, that's all that matters.

tnedator
01-25-2013, 09:07
tnedator,

I rotate through several handguns for my carry rotation, and all different calibers. When my "CCW for the week" goes back into the safe, I eject the round and return it to the magazine I had in the gun. I found that I'd have to have an extra step in swapping firearms, because there would be an extra round. It was just easier for me to run with a dedicated magazine for each pistol and to strip the top round off when going hot. Since I'm not trying to save that carry ammo forever, I'll cycle new rounds in when I've chambered/ejected that top round a few times. Last thing I need to deal with is setback.

I carry a spare magazine, and sometimes multiple if the CCW is a smaller one, like my SIG P238HD. All of my Glocks use the smaller/flush magazines, with a full-size spare.

Makes sense. If you are carrying multiple guns and unloading regularly, vs. leaving it loaded all the time, I can see the line of logic. On those occaissions I need to unload my carry weapon, such as if I decide to clean/lube it, I always have a spare round hanging around, which I have to keep up with. If cleaning, it's only for a short period of time, but if I'm sending the gun off for repair, putting it up for a while in the safe, or the like, I have this extra round, out of a magazine.

As I said, personally, I would be much more apprehensive to do it with a gun like a PM9 or PM40, just because they are so capacity limited to begin with, and to an extent even a M&P 9c or 40c, compared to a M&P FS, G17, G19, XDm, etc. that are going to have 14-17 rounds or so, even if you don't top off the magazine.

TRX450R_Racer
01-25-2013, 09:38
thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. my chl instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "i'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so i thought it was a big deal with glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and i'll carry it ready to go.

the instructor needs some instructing imo.

...x2

vandros
01-25-2013, 09:42
You appear to be defensive here. It's important to note that few if any of us recommend someone who isn't comfortable and properly trained should carry a gun properly, which is ready to be used if your life depends on it.

Obviously, you could get better training or switch to a gun with a manual safety (i'm not a big fan of this, since whether you "think" the safety is on or not, you shouldn't be touching the trigger, so the basic rules apply regardless).

However, if your comfort level is to err on the side of extra safety, either because you don't feel comfortable or for philosophical reasons, that's your choice.

We all make decisions on a regular basis that impact how quickly we can deploy a gun in self defense. Where we carry (appendix, 4:00, SOB) or how we carry, OWB, IWB, belly band or smart carry type holster, all impact how quickly the weapon can be drawn when needed.

So, from a purely "time" stand point, if you opt for a minimally covered, fast access holster, with no round chambered, you could get the gun on target as fast or faster than someone that's wearing a gun in an IWB, tucked under a dress shirt, or in a smart carry type holster.

Of course, as discussed, if you need to use your off hand to fend off an attacker as you are drawing, something that is a VERY real likelihood and why most self defense training includes such drills, as most bad guys don't announce their intentions from 10 yards away, then you now have to fumble to rack the slide on your belt or as mentioned, use it as a club, or stop defending/keeping distance with your off hand, as you choose to use it to rack your slide.

It's not just a time factor, it's the knowledge that you have to be in an "ideal" self defense situation to be guaranteed the ability to rack the slide to chamber a round. Lots of self defense situations, possibly most, won't give you the time and two free hands to draw and rack as your plan calls for.

Anyway, I started this post with the intention of saying that everyone draws their line somewhere. You've drawn your line on the side of ultimate safety, and that's your right. You shouldn't feel the need to defend it in such a strained way. If you feel safer that way, that's all that matters.

I'm just trying to articulate my position clearly and forcefully, and push back a little against conventional wisdom on this forum. Don't mean to be offensive/disrespectful to anybody's preferred method of CCing. And, I'm ready to be persuaded by well reasoned arguments (not the ones like: "Having pistol without a round in the chamber is the same as carrying a hammer"). :)

chemboy
01-25-2013, 09:55
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

I always CCW a Glock and I always carry 'hot'.
Sole reason for that is in a CCW scenario you have to react to the assailant-doesn't leave much time to rack the slide back to chamber a round.

I don't want to have to worry about having to manually chamber a round when I have a guy wanting to kill me.

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 10:07
A neighbor girl has a permit to carry (she got hers with my family a while ago) and told me she was very uncomfortable about carrying a loaded gun (she has a S&W 642 .38 Special) She said she was fearful that since she wasn't used to carrying the gun, she worried she might do something to cause it to fire unintentionally. She has served a hitch in the Air Force so she is hardly timid.

She works in health care and goes to some seedy areas of town and has many shifts during the dark hours. I worry about her unarmed. She is our "fourth daughter, but by another mother". I suggested she make a special effort to carry her pistol unloaded, all the time she is home, everyday, in a proper holster, until she feels comfortable with it, her trigger discipline and handling of it. When she is comfortable that it is becoming second nature to deal with it properly and safely, she can then do the same with it now loaded.

She also asked to come with me to the range often, to gain more confidence in her ability with it. This is a great excuse for me to go shoot also. I love to go shooting. My wife, not so much.

When she believes it is safe for her to carry a loaded pistol all the time, carry it outside every waking moment from then on. You will get so that it is a physical constant, an extension of your body, and you will feel it is no hindrance at all in daily functions, but you always know it is there when needed.

If you live with your firearm, you must respect it, and the responsibility that goes along with it. Then you will not worry about unintended consequences.

Well said, and sensible advice. Everyone new to CC would do well to follow this plan.

VinnieG
01-25-2013, 10:17
I'm obviously in minority in my position that one should not chamber when carrying, and that's fine. A lot of knowledgeable folks disagree with me. A lot of knowledgeable folks (i.e., Israeli military) agree with me.

It seems folks disagreeing with me assume they will operate their firearm when adrenaline dump begins in exactly the same way that they do during their range training. The maxim I agree with is: You fall back on your training when SHTF and you are attacked. BUT, this does not mean you'll perform EXACTLY like you've trained when flight/fight reflex takes a hold of you. Just ask all those police officers who had NDs when placed under stress.

Racking slide takes me about 0.2 second, and it takes place while the gun is being moved to target. If you so concerned about this 0.2 second, perhaps you should have bullet-proof vest on, have helmet on, have an AK47 with 100-rounds drum with round chambered and have the weapon always in your hands ready to go. And even that will not address all possible scenarios fully.

Again, all your guys' scenarios are valid and definitely worth pondering. And careful analysis should always be part of each of our individual threat assessment. I see how you all want to be prepared for these scenarios, and I appreciate that. But round in the chamber does not address all possible scenarios. If we follow the logic of wanting to address every possible contingency, then having a loaded gun in the hand is even better than simply having a holstered weapon with round chambered. Having an AK in your hands is even better than Glock. Sitting in a tank is even better than having an AK. See where our natural desire to address all possible contingencies can lead us?

Conventional wisdom here seems to be that a round should always be chambered when carrying glocks. It also seems conventional wisdom that NDs are a normal occurrence when under stress - especially when holstering/unhostering. I just can't accept this. After reading numerous volumes on the matter, participating in training, and carefully evaluating my options, I choose not to chamber. I just don't feel like having my hot-loaded 10mm HP travelling down my leg would improve my day - as a result of me underestimating the intensity of physiological and psychological response to deadly threat.

You do make a couple valid points. The one that I disagree the most with is your Israel military reference that you have used a couple times.
I have not studied their training or carry methods, but I guarantee that they are not operating in a war zone with empty hands and an unchambered gun in their holster. They will have their primary weapon in their hands and ready to go.
A civilian walking down the street with their family is a lot different than a military man operating.
There is a slight difference in the training that they get also

vandros
01-25-2013, 10:24
To add to the scenarios. You can draw and rack while laying on your back and it takes no extra movement or time? How about when there is no time to present your weapon and firing from the side immediately after drawing is the only option? Your weak arm is incapacitated because someone else got off the first shot? You're carrying a child? You feel 100% ready in ideal situations. Ideal situations rarely happen in a gun fight. It is up to you though. My advise is go take a defensive pistol class where they put you in real life scenarios and see how adequate your system is.

I hear you, bro. And, I've taken the training you refer to (my instructor, btw, was in agreement with you). But, here's my scenario for you: You are startled by an attack, you rush to pull out your pistol with round in the chamber, because your fine motor reflexes are shot to hell, as you are pulling out your gun from the holster you accidentally shoot a hot bonded JHP into your thigh severing your femoral artery. As you are recovering from the shock of having just shot yourself, you realize that you will bleed to death in the matter of minutes. As you ponder your ill fate, the BG, shoots your wife, shoots you, takes your gun, takes your wallets and gets away. Is this scenario unlikely? I don't think so, based on how many negligent discharges occur to police officers who are hostering/unhostering their handguns under stress.

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 10:32
I think this is the most civil discussion of this topic I've had the pleasure of following. Good thoughts., respectful push backs, well articulated positions, agreement to disagree...this is called adult behavior.

This is a well-worn subject, but folks new to CC benefit from being personally involved in the debate.

AR15 guy
01-25-2013, 10:44
I wouldn't bother carrying a gun if your scared to carry one in the chamber.

If attacked you'll be lucky to have time to unholster a weapon, let alone charge it at well.

D4RWlN
01-25-2013, 10:46
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

I recommend keeping one the chamber and the rest in your magazine or at the very least all in the magazine. It you keep them all on a clip, you have to remove the rounds from the clip, load them in your mag, insert the mag in a firearm, and then rack to slide to be ready. When seconds count, you are only a minute from getting your pistol operational by keeping your rounds on a clip

zbomb
01-25-2013, 10:48
Snap Cap in the chamber....

onearmsteve
01-25-2013, 10:52
locked and loaded

tnedator
01-25-2013, 10:59
I'm just trying to articulate my position clearly and forcefully, and push back a little against conventional wisdom on this forum. Don't mean to be offensive/disrespectful to anybody's preferred method of CCing. And, I'm ready to be persuaded by well reasoned arguments (not the ones like: "Having pistol without a round in the chamber is the same as carrying a hammer"). :)

As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.

tnedator
01-25-2013, 11:05
I hear you, bro. And, I've taken the training you refer to (my instructor, btw, was in agreement with you). But, here's my scenario for you: You are startled by an attack, you rush to pull out your pistol with round in the chamber, because your fine motor reflexes are shot to hell, as you are pulling out your gun from the holster you accidentally shoot a hot bonded JHP into your thigh severing your femoral artery. As you are recovering from the shock of having just shot yourself, you realize that you will bleed to death in the matter of minutes. As you ponder your ill fate, the BG, shoots your wife, shoots you, takes your gun, takes your wallets and gets away. Is this scenario unlikely? I don't think so, based on how many negligent discharges occur to police officers who are hostering/unhostering their handguns under stress.

If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.

D4RWlN
01-25-2013, 11:14
On a more serious note, if you are not yet comfortable carrying a round in the chamber, it's okay. This usually means you are not yet confident in either the pistol not firing by itself or in your own firearm handling. This is what I tell people to do to overcome this. It's always worked. Get a quality holster that protects the trigger and completely covers the trigger guard. I can not express enough how important a quality holster is to carrying chambered with guns without manual safeties. With your pistol unloaded, cocked the gun, and then insert your mag. Carry like this, unchambered, for a month or two(or ever long it takes to get comfortable.) Every day at the end of the day inspect you pistol to make sure the trigger isn't depressed. It won't be. Glocks don't go off by themselves if you don't monkey with the internals too much. If it ever is. You did something wrong and need to re-evaluate your firearm handling skills as you are not ready to carry a firearm. The idea is, day after day, month after month if need be, you will notice the trigger doesn't and won't just depress by itself. Once you see this and are comfortable, start carrying one in the pipe. I actually did this to myself when I first started carrying a Glock. I grew up and was trained on firearms with manual safeties and uber safe gun handling and rules. I wasn't sure of a platform without manual safeties. This is how I initially over came that. Now I prefer no manual safeties.I think a lot of people use them almost as a crutch for poor firearms handling and using piss poor holsters. Eventually you need to carry chambered or you are crippling yourself. I hope this helps you out.

vandros
01-25-2013, 11:25
As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.

I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.

SGT278ACR
01-25-2013, 11:30
This was discussed several years ago when I went through the police academy. It really makes no sense to not have one chambered when you're carrying for personal protection. As quick as a dangerous threat can come at you... a lot can happen in the time it takes to draw... charge the weapon... then get a shot off. But, to each his own... it's your gun & your choice to carry however you want to. For those of you who do not carry chambered... good luck with that if you are ever instantly and unexpectedly assaulted. :dunno:

tnedator
01-25-2013, 11:49
I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.

First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.

happyguy
01-25-2013, 12:25
Maybe the one that is making ridiculous and brainless statements is you. When I said “carrying an unchambered gun is like carrying a hammer” I was using a simile which is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things. Of course a hammer is a hammer and a Glock is a Glock. You need to think more before writing comments on others thoughts. Be respectful and you will be respected. :steamed:

Poor simile and I disagree with the point you made with it.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

happyguy
01-25-2013, 12:30
Actually, I don't see how your martial arts example applies. I guess your confusion was that you focused on the Tueller drill, which I don't believe I even referenced by name, rather than the results of the experiment, as well as many followup tests.

For instance, for a while, during his courses, Mas Ayoob would have class members run 7 yards and time it. He found that even elderly and somewhat mobility challenged students would cover the distance in about 2 seconds. The young, fit students might be more like 1.5 seconds.

That knowledge has nothing to do with fake martial art encounters, it has to do with having the information you need to properly train and more important, understand the importance of situational awareness and actively avoid putting yourself in positions where you can be attacked from close distance (I realize this last part is challenging to say the least).

As to your last statement about the Tueller drill doing nothing more than showing how quickly someone covers 21 feet? Um, yea, I think that was the whole and only point of my post.




Feeling a little touchy today?:panties: :rofl:

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Drain You
01-25-2013, 13:00
I'm so serious about self defense, I carry two in the chamber.

IndyGunFreak
01-25-2013, 13:01
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF

vandros
01-25-2013, 13:07
First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.

I see your point. But, I guess what I was trying to say is that even extensive and "perfect" practice should not give one full "comfort" when it comes to flight/fight situation. This comfort is a dangerous illusion, is what I'm trying to say. If you REGULARLY practice holstering/unholstering, drawing, aiming, shooting while injected with adrenaline, AND when your hands are shaking vigorously, AND when you heart rate and breathing rate are jacked up, AND when a genuine fear for your life is somehow induced - then I concede and you win this argument. But, unless you are special forces operator (which I believe 99.99% of folks here aren't), you aren't doing this sort of training regularly.

I don't understand what you mean by "We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory." To clear any misunderstanding, I'm not saying you are 100% sure to shoot yourself in the butt or sever your leg artery. What I'm saying, and what is EXTENSIVELY documented, is that adrenaline dump creates many very specific and very powerful physiological and psychological changes in one's body and mind, which reduce your ability to safely handle your weapon.

I think I will stop here, as we appear to start going in circles. I'll keep an eye on this thread for good arguments on this issue, though. In all honesty, I'm only about 90% committed to my position on this issue (because the issue is complex), and I appreciate your guys well thought-out arguments. I think we all benefit greatly from rationally and thoughtfully debating on this important topic. Cheers!

RJ's Guns
01-25-2013, 14:46
If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.


Instead of vandros focusing on "fine motorskill", I would suggest that he practice more so that drawing a handgun in a safe manner, such as you suggested, i.e.; “PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target” becomes a matter of “muscle memory”.

That type of muscle memory is so engrained in me, that I do not even think about it. It seems to me that vandros has been practicing the wrong thing.

I do find it useless to waste the time try to change someone like vandros’ opinion or way of thinking on this matter. It reminds me of a gun-grabber and how intransigent they are about how dangerous they perceive firearms to be.

RJ

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 17:17
Oh and OP, GLOCKS have mags not clips. One of my pet peeves (along with a lot of others.

I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 17:23
RJ- They are dangerous, my friend. If they weren't, we wouldn't bother to carry one.

tnedator
01-25-2013, 17:28
I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.

It's a little crazy sometimes. While I say magazine 95% of the time, I sometimes say clip. I have no idea, probably from decades of TV and movies using the term.

I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but the way I differentiate is that a magazine holds the rounds on the inside (basically all of your AR, pistol, etc. type feeding devices are magazines, including the 1911).

Clips would be something that holds the rounds at the base. So, the M1 Garand has a clip, holding the rounds at their base. You can get 5.56 rounds on stripper 'clips' which hold ten rounds with a clip around their bases, allowing you to quickly reload a magazine.

So, in my simplified way of thinking, rounds being internal and it's a magazine, rounds being exposed and held together by a device at the base of the cartridge = a clip.

As to the over-reaction to people about the wrong use of the term, I think it's just a reaction to so many in the media and anti-gun crowd that spout anti-gun rhetoric, but have no clue about guns -- such as Feinstein outlawing semi-automatic rifles with rocket launchers attached to them.

PhotoFeller
01-25-2013, 17:35
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF

Indy - This thread will rack up hundreds, maybe a thousand posts because the topic is important and people learn more and have more fun participating in a live thread. If it isn't costing you anything, why don't you just pretend it doesn't exist?

Lone Wolf8634
01-25-2013, 17:41
Instead of vandros focusing on "fine motorskill", I would suggest that he practice more so that drawing a handgun in a safe manner, such as you suggested, i.e.; “PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target” becomes a matter of “muscle memory”.

That type of muscle memory is so engrained in me, that I do not even think about it. It seems to me that vandros has been practicing the wrong thing.

I do find it useless to waste the time try to change someone like vandros’ opinion or way of thinking on this matter. It reminds me of a gun-grabber and how intransigent they are about how dangerous they perceive firearms to be.

RJ


This. It looks, feels and sounds foolish and mall ninjaesque (yes, I make up words) but I have practiced drawing my gun properly from my IWB, shoulder holster and BH Serpa thousands of times each. And each time I do it I make a point to follow the "Booger hook off the bang stick" rule.

If it becomes so ingrained that you cannot force yourself to place your finger in the trigger guard until you're on target....you're almost there, practice a bit more.

It also has the advantage of informing you what the limitations of time and position are in reference to your chosen carry method and cover clothing.

tnedator
01-25-2013, 17:54
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF

Well, heck, why not just lock every thread? Shucks, why even have a discussion forum at all? You can find opinion on virtually every topic via Google that's in old forum threads, Twitter or blogs/articles.

I think we should petition GT to have an "auto-close" feature five minutes after any thread is created. /sarcasm

Ok, sorry, shouldn't have done it, but it's a pet peeve of mine when the forum police want to dictate which topics are worthy of discussion on a DISCUSSION forum.


It also has the advantage of informing you what the limitations of time and position are in reference to your chosen carry method and cover clothing.

I wanted to highlight this part of your post. It was all good, but wanted to bring attention to this. Far too often people practice, or simply assume, the best case scenarios. What happens when you have a concealment garment and winter coat? What about when you wear tucked shirt (assuming you do)? What about when you are sitting? In the car with the seat belt fastened?

Each of these, and many other situations, create completely unique draw scenarios, and take varying amounts of time. If you are seated and your shirt is too long, you can be sitting on it, and might not be able to rip it up in a clean ripping motion. There are so many factors.

So, whether you are practicing with an unloaded gun, or a Blue rings gun that is the same model as your gun (good overall, but doesn't properly replicate weight), you need to not only make the general draw stroke second nature (start here), but then in addition to continuing to practice to not lose the draw stroke, you need to start practicing drawing from less than ideal positions, clothing, etc.

ICARRY2
01-25-2013, 17:58
Carry chamber empty. That way you'll look like a bad ass racking the slide in front of the bad guy right before he shoots you. :rolleyes:

Deaf Smith
01-25-2013, 18:06
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

Several advantages for chamber carry plus a few disadvantages.

1) Simplicity. No need to add another step to get the weapon in action.

2) Immediate first shot in the shortest time period, especially from retention position (that is grabbing distance.)


3) No need for two hands to chamber. You may have one hand hurt or busy and not be able to use two hands.

Grappling with an attacker also makes chambering with two hands rather tough. Opponent may slam you to the ground, or grab the weapon, or just punch you while you try to chamber a round.


4) When under pressure you might short stroke the action and jam the weapon.

The downside is that if you forget the gun is loaded you can pull the trigger and have a AD/ND (but then, just KYFFOTFT till the weapon is on target.) Yes there are AD/NDs every year. No doubt many have their weapons chamber loaded, but then many are ‘cleaning’ their weapons and well, who knows what state their weapons was really in.

Now chamber empty (C3) has a few advantages.

1) A gun snatch will give you a few seconds for the BG to react (you hope) to get the weapon back.


2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then I feel you should just pick the gun up, ok.)

3) If your gun is not drop safe, then chamber empty is the best way to carry.

4) No safe way to carry the weapon (lack of holster, poor holster, etc..)

5) If you tend to take your gun out and play with it instead of keeping it holstered then C3 might be a better way to carry. (not kidding, there are people that do mess with their weapons like that.)

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people.

There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

Now why is C3 inferior?

Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions.

Yes I am aware you can chamber one handed but can one do this quickly and reliably adverse conditions? I do mean quick and reliable, say when grapping with an attacker? Or with various simi-autos that are produced now?

Or in the rain? Or while moving? I doubt it.

One doubts it, right? Doing a one handed rack on a square range on a sunny day isn't the same thing as on the street when things are going down hill quickly.

Is chamber empty safer to carry in the light of ND/ADs?

It is difficult so see how it is safer if you keep the weapon in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard and has adequate retention (in case of a fall or such) and don/doff with the weapon in the holster.

That way the trigger cannot be pulled in any way.

But wither one carries their weapon C1 or C3, it is very important to train to be safe.

If you cannot keep your weapon holstered until needed, don't carry C1, and if you tend to fumble chambering a weapon fast, don't carry C3 (and for BOTH C1 and C3, if you can't keep your finger off the trigger until the need to fire, leave the gun home!) Training is the most important part.

Ignorance is what causes AD/NDs, not the state of the weapon.

Deaf

COLDSTEEL165
01-25-2013, 19:04
This subject has been beaten to death on every forum etc.Bottom line anyone who fears caring with one in the chamber.? I strongly suggest that they start caring a Revolver.? Case Closed.

Poppa Bear
01-25-2013, 21:56
My suggestion as some have already noted is for you, meaning any poster or reader of this post, to PRACTICE!!! I do not care if you want to carry chamber empty, or loaded. Just practice whichever technique you plan to use until it becomes an ingrained memory.

My primary carry is a G22. My primary and secondary competitive guns are a 2011 and a 1911. I am so used to swiping the safety off that I try to take one off on my Glock. This translates to my thumb coming down into position as my strong hand grips the gun in a manner that will wipe the safety off even though it is not there.

My 2011 is competition only. My 1911 is easily a carry gun. I would have no problem carrying my 1911 because the muscle memory is there to draw the gun, remove the safety, and then place my finger on the trigger as it indexes on the target for an active engagement situation, or along side the frame when dealing with a non shooting situation. As long as I have no intention of firing the gun my finger is on the frame. When I plan to fire it subconsciously drops into place on the trigger. This is in a large part due to thousands of repetitions over a 20 year + time span. So do things however you want, but practice the hell out of it.

wjv
01-25-2013, 23:38
One in the chamber and DON'T call it a CLIP! It's a MAGAZINE!

LuckyG
01-26-2013, 12:30
I'v already stated my own opinion and preference for one up the snout earlier. However, there is another alternative for folks who don't want to carry with a round in the chamber. However, it's not a Glock.

There are a number of DA/SA pattern handguns out there that have the true safety lever. Sig would be an example of a decocker and Beretta B92F an example of a safety/decocker.

For those who don't know the details, a DECOCKER safely decocks the hammer and the spring returns the decocker, trigger and firing mechanism to it's ready DA position. Pull trigger and gun fires DA mode.

A SAFETY lever decocks the hammer, disconnects the trigger and the lever then remains in the down position (no spring loading). Pull trigger and nothing happens, also a steel block remains between the firing pin and hammer. To fire, the SAFETY lever has to be manually moved upwards and the trigger pulled.

In other words, if you don't like a live round chambered, a DA/SA with a true safety would effectively give you the same level of comfort as an empty chamber. The trigger is disconnected and the steel block is in place. All it takes is a thumb flick up to fire, not a racking of the slide.

This type of gun is popular with some guys that work corrections, bookings or other jobs that require the person to be armed (safety on/down), but in close proximity to bad guys that may want your gun. Of course, many shooters don't like DA/SA guns so this is not an option.

While these types of discussions are always interesting, civilians are fortunate enough to have a wide range of individual choices. You get to make yours and I get to make mine, which is the way it should be.

Lior
01-26-2013, 12:39
Carrying a round in the chamber has a tactical advantage and is okay if you practice gun safety religiously.

At the moment I carry with an empty chamber because I don't have exclusive access to the gun safe, and my assessment is that the increased safety in administrative handling from gun safe to person is worth more than the reduced safety of needing to chamber a round in a hypothetical encounter justifying and necessitating deadly force. But that's just me and YMMV. This is a temporary arrangement and I shall soon go back to a normal safe.

rauldduke1979
01-26-2013, 19:26
This subject has been beaten to death on every forum etc.Bottom line anyone who fears caring with one in the chamber.? I strongly suggest that they start caring a Revolver.? Case Closed.

Sir, you win the Internet this evening. Good post.

And I concur. There are quality revolvers from major manufactures in every (ok, just about) caliber. Get a good revolver and a good holster and take comfort in having 5-8 shots ready to go without the need to "chamber a round".

I carry a Kahr CM9 in a Desantis, strong side hip pocket. I always have 1 in the chamber. I try not to "handle" the firearm except to take the whole rig (holster and pistol) out of my pocket in the evening and to put it back in my pocket the next morning.

That being said, I pocket carried a j frame for 3 years and never felt under armed.

Laslo
01-26-2013, 20:19
I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this. Some might argue: Practice keeping the f@$#&ng finger off the trigger. And, I do. But, I want an extra precaution for the flight/fight episodes.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a very useful bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.


Good luck with that.

captcurly
01-27-2013, 16:37
This topic is just more than old. Hey, if you are going to carry a Glock for self defense for God's sake have a round in the chamber. The weapon was designed for this. If you think that you might have to rack one one in the chamber you are a complete moron. Sorry for being so blunt but how the hell else could I be.

JackMac
01-27-2013, 16:48
I carry with one in the chamber and a full mag. Former Deputy Sheriff.

PhotoFeller
01-27-2013, 16:57
The weapon [Glock] was designed for this [one in the chamber]. If you think that you might have to rack one one in the chamber you are a complete moron.

Your wisdom is automatically cancelled by your ignorance.

Gaston Glock
01-27-2013, 17:32
Yes...

NEOH212
01-27-2013, 17:49
Oh God, not again!


:faint:

NEOH212
01-27-2013, 17:51
If your that worried about, maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place....:whistling:

fallenangelhim
01-27-2013, 18:06
Don't be scurred.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

happyguy
01-27-2013, 18:12
Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.

Not even close.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Poppa Bear
01-27-2013, 18:59
Jerry could carry one unloaded. Of course anyone that can do 6 reload 6 in 2.99 seconds is not your normal revolver guy. LOL

rockapede
01-27-2013, 20:03
Good holster + quality training + perfect practice = chambered gun. Thousands upon thousands of people carry this way and problems seem to be very rare. I've got nothing against anyone who prefers to carry chamber empty, to each their own. However, I've drawn my duty gun enough around people to know that being restricted to one hand because of any number of circumstances is a very real possibility.

spcwes
01-28-2013, 17:35
If you have to ask this question, then your not ready for it!

Wow not even the first post in this thread that is like this but should be the last. The fact that this person IS asking the question is great and no one here should give them anything but support in this process. Unreal....

rustynail
01-28-2013, 18:19
The more you carry and shoot your glock the more confidence you will have, so carry with out one in the chamber for a while then rethink it in a couple of months. I have a NY1 trigger spring in my carry gun and it adds a couple of lbs to the trigger pull.I like it and realy don't care what other people think, do what works for you. JMO

PhotoFeller
01-29-2013, 12:25
Good holster + quality training + perfect practice = chambered gun.

This is the proper recipe for preparing to carry C1.

Unfortunately, MOST people who carry C1 don't follow this prescription beyond the "good holster". Therein lies the danger of advise given here on a wholesale basis that C1 is the only intelligent way to carry because of tactical advantages.

C1 is fine for those who adequately prepare and stay 'tuned up' with continuous practice. I'm not one of those practitioners, and I readily admit it. That's why I'll carry my Glocks C3 until I find a suitable replacement with a manual safety.

unit1069
01-29-2013, 12:53
I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.

I concede that this method leaves a gap in my ability to respond to a potential life-or-death situation, but then I consider it no different than having to fumble with a manual safety. (None of my self-defense handguns have a manual safety)

I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.

Nobody can assess his/her individual circumstances except the individual, although it's always good to read suggestions as there are likely issues that one hasn't considered.

PhotoFeller
01-29-2013, 13:06
I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.

I concede that this method leaves a gap in my ability to respond to a potential life-or-death situation, but then I consider it no different than having to fumble with a manual safety. (None of my self-defense handguns have a manual safety)

I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.

Nobody can assess his/her individual circumstances except the individual, although it's always good to read suggestions as there are likely issues that one hasn't considered.

This honest, thoughtful, practical position represents the way we should all consider our particular circumstances in making CC technique decisions.

Many will disagree with this approach, but it seems smart and responsible in my way of thinking.

NMOFT
01-29-2013, 22:45
I usually don’t comment on threads like this because I think what you carry and how you carry it is a personal choice and I have no desire to meddle. But this discussion has me intrigued, and since this discussion is occurring in the public domain I feel compelled to ask those of you that carry a weapon with an unloaded chamber some questions. Please don’t take me wrong, I don’t meant to be a smart alec or insulting I’m just genuinely curious.
Do you treat your other personal protective equipment the same way? Do you only buckle your seatbelt when you drive on the interstate? Do you keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? If you do is it charged?
PPE is part of my everyday life; I am required to wear fire resistant clothing everywhere I go every working day to protect against a flash fire. I’ve never been in a flash fire and if I thought I was going to be I wouldn’t go to work. I wear an H2S monitor the same way. I don’t think I’ll be exposed to a lethal concentration of H2S, but I wear the monitor anyway. No one can predict when something awful is going to happen on the job so we are always ready. It becomes a life time habit.
No one who goes armed really thinks they are going to engage in a SD shooting on any given day, yet on any given day someone will. How can you predict when you will need a ready weapon and when you will not?

PhotoFeller
01-29-2013, 23:45
I usually don’t comment on threads like this because I think what you carry and how you carry it is a personal choice and I have no desire to meddle. But this discussion has me intrigued, and since this discussion is occurring in the public domain I feel compelled to ask those of you that carry a weapon with an unloaded chamber some questions. Please don’t take me wrong, I don’t meant to be a smart alec or insulting I’m just genuinely curious.
Do you treat your other personal protective equipment the same way? Do you only buckle your seatbelt when you drive on the interstate? Do you keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? If you do is it charged?
PPE is part of my everyday life; I am required to wear fire resistant clothing everywhere I go every working day to protect against a flash fire. I’ve never been in a flash fire and if I thought I was going to be I wouldn’t go to work. I wear an H2S monitor the same way. I don’t think I’ll be exposed to a lethal concentration of H2S, but I wear the monitor anyway. No one can predict when something awful is going to happen on the job so we are always ready. It becomes a life time habit.
No one who goes armed really thinks they are going to engage in a SD shooting on any given day, yet on any given day someone will. How can you predict when you will need a ready weapon and when you will not?


Several points I'd like to make in response to your very tactful (or was it sarcastic?) queery:

1. Given my age and lifestyle, the probability of being attacked is nearly 0.
2. Given my skill level, lack of recent training and infrequency of practice, I feel C3 with a Glock is safest for the people around me and for myself.
3. My CC techniques are less important than safety considerations.
4. My affinity for firearms makes CC a practice that is enjoyable in addition to providing a sense of security in some situations.

I hope this helps you understand why some of us carry C3 based upon our particular circumstances.

unit1069
01-30-2013, 01:49
Do you treat your other personal protective equipment the same way? Do you only buckle your seatbelt when you drive on the interstate? Do you keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? If you do is it charged?

1. I treat all important equipment well, and in the case of firearms I thoroughly inspect, clean, and lube them after each range session. Even if I've only shot 10 rounds. Ammo is kept in a cool, dry space off the floor, some of it sealed in an ammo can.

2. I'm always buckled up when driving.

3. I have a charged fire extinguisher in the pantry of my kitchen.

PPE is part of my everyday life; I am required to wear fire resistant clothing everywhere I go every working day to protect against a flash fire. I’ve never been in a flash fire and if I thought I was going to be I wouldn’t go to work. I wear an H2S monitor the same way. I don’t think I’ll be exposed to a lethal concentration of H2S, but I wear the monitor anyway. No one can predict when something awful is going to happen on the job so we are always ready. It becomes a life time habit.

Yes, you work in an environment where you're surrounded by danger. Much different from those of us who aren't in a similar environment so my thinking is different than yours in many respects. My preparation is also much different than LEO personnel, for that matter.

No one who goes armed really thinks they are going to engage in a SD shooting on any given day, yet on any given day someone will. How can you predict when you will need a ready weapon and when you will not?

By the same token nobody who handles firearms ever thinks he/she will suffer a negligent or accidental discharge, but this site alone has seen more than a few testimonials from Glock Talk members who have. By my calculation there are far more (non-LEO) members who have had a ND/AD than have engaged a criminal in a self-defense shooting. I don't dispute that it's better to be as ready to respond as reasonably possible, but I also believe it's better to be safe than sorry. Balancing the chances of a) being in a semi-prepared, potentially life-or-death encounter (very low probability) or b) suffering a ND/AD (if C1, higher probability) I choose to opt for C3 in my normal routine (which significantly lowers the chance of a ND/AD).

skeezix
01-30-2013, 04:07
G23: one in the chamber, 13 in the 'magazine'.

hardint
01-30-2013, 05:29
G26 = 13 +1 or of little use.

SevenSixtyTwo
01-30-2013, 06:15
I started with a '94 Beretta Cougar with manual thumb safety for CC. Then three Glocks. Now back to a thumb safety on a P938 for CC. Now I've got the hankering for a Colt New Agent. Always one in the chamber. However you carry, practice until it becomes second nature.

SFla27
01-30-2013, 07:12
Vandros,

As others have said, we respect your opinion and overall comfort level. It is vitally-important to feel comfortable with carrying a mechanical device that requires significant levels of practice, training and confidence.

IMHO, fine motor skills don't come into play if you keep your trigger finger straight when unholstering. That way, the trigger finger begins to enter the trigger guard during the presentation phase. And at that point, the weapon is not pointed at your body.

That being said, may I pose one scenario to add to the others that have been constructively and logically presented in this thread:

You're walking back to your car at the gas station, movie theater, some parking lot. Or you're just walking along somehwere. Some guy comes up to you (doesn't matter if you saw him coming or not) and asks you if you have some change you could spare. Or he just starts making some small talk or asks you if you have a cigarette.

Now, at this time, you aren't sure if this guy is a potential assailant or someone down on his luck and needs some spare change.

He's just two or so feet away from you. Close conversation distance.

And before you know it, he begins to attack you or begins the process of some aggravated crime. He's right on top of you in an instant.

You mention that fine motor skills could be a problem when unholstering, causing ND's.

By the same token, you have to acknowledge the possibility that similar motor skills are what helps you to quickly and fully rack a slide to properly enable one round to be inserted into the chamber.

Any chance your adrenaline-filled body could short-pull the slide?

And then you're dead because you began fumbling with a gun with a malfunction.

So, assuming you "stick to your guns" :cool:, would you rather shoot yourself in the leg because you unholstered your weapon in a very wrong way, or.... As they say, choose your poison. :)

Cheers.

happyguy
01-30-2013, 07:59
I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.


I think you should carry the same way all the time (however you decide to carry) just for the sake of consistency.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Bill Lumberg
01-30-2013, 10:02
There are plenty of folks who are better off carrying with an empty chamber. If a person isn't sure whether they should or not, they don't need to carry with a round chambered.

Dukeboy01
01-30-2013, 10:06
I always keeps one in the chamber, in case you ponderin'.

The Wire - Brother Mouzone/Omar confrontation - YouTube

bear62
01-30-2013, 10:10
One in the chamber is a lot better than two in the chamber.....:embarassed:

PhotoFeller
01-30-2013, 10:41
There are plenty of folks who are better off carrying with an empty chamber. If a person isn't sure whether they should or not, they don't need to carry with a round chambered.

Thank you, sir.

PhotoFeller
01-30-2013, 11:31
There are two consistent themes in this thread, and I wonder if they are as inextricably linked in real life as they are here, in a theoretical context. Most respondents say they carry C1. Many say training and diligent practice are necessary for safe C1 carry.

How many people who have answered C1 actually receive ongoing training and diligently practice gun handling techniques (drawing, presenting, reholstering, drills to develop trigger finger discipline, use of free hand to hold off an attacker, etc.)? How much time is consistently devoted to self defense preparation using your gun?

I ask these questions because it seems that concealed carry becomes a lifestyle for those who engage in it with a sincere commitment to excellence. That isn't bad, but it does represent a substantial dedication to skill development for an unlikely event. Or, it may be necessary preparation due to criminal activity in someone's neighborhood and/or work environment. Or, it could be a manifestation of one's tendency to be prepared for even low-risk situations. It could even be a commitment to an enjoyable discipline, like martial arts, that could have practical benefits. For those who are deeply committed to CC as a major aspect of daily life, I guess I'm also asking why you are motivated to adopt that lifestyle.

FireForged
01-30-2013, 11:58
Ultimately people have to make their own decisions based on their own set of circumstances which may be far different than mine.. All that being said-

with the exception of very old revolvers, I cannot image a circumstance where I would carry a hadgun without a round in the chamber.

Violence can happen quickly, without warning and in ways most cant even imagine.. I will not handicap myself by having to chamber a round. People talk about training.. I can train myself to quickly put on a seatbelt at the earliest sign of a traffic accident, but that plan doesnt seem prudent.

SFla27
01-30-2013, 12:28
..i can train myself to quickly put on a seatbelt at the earliest sign of a traffic accident, but that plan doesnt seem prudent.

^^+1^^

sappy13
01-30-2013, 12:32
Always +1. A gun that needs to be racked is only good for the movies. IV carried my glock many times and its never just gone off. Only time I didn't carry with one in the chamber was when I had a belt clip on it to use as a latenight take the dog out gun.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

FireForged
01-30-2013, 13:15
Always +1. A gun that needs to be racked is only good for the movies. IV carried my glock many times and its never just gone off. Only time I didn't carry with one in the chamber was when I had a belt clip on it to use as a latenight take the dog out gun.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

I love the video on youtube where the guy racks the slide on his glock(unloaded of course), ties it to a rope and drags it behind his truck down a desert road for several miles.. all the while the glock is turning flips, bouncing, banging off of rocks and in the end, he picked it up and pulled the trigger... click! The striker was still in the correct position even after all that abuse.

PhotoFeller
01-30-2013, 14:08
Violence can happen quickly, without warning and in ways most cant even imagine.. I will not handicap myself by having to chamber a round.

You must live or work in an area where criminal attacks are a frequent occurrence. If attacks aren't frequent, they must happen often enough that you feel your safety is in jeopardy.

I highlight your comments because many, many bad things can happen any time, quickly and without warning, that we don't take special measures to avoid. Yet, many of us go to great lengths to carry a weapon every day for protection against attack that, in most places, is unlikely to happen.

I'm not being critical, because I admire disciplined individuals. I applaud folks who take up martial arts or fitness training, become a pilot or build beautiful wood furniture. I'm just trying to understand why people here devote themselves to self defense using a firearm; what's the real motivation?

unit1069
01-30-2013, 16:13
Violence can happen quickly, without warning and in ways most cant even imagine.. I will not handicap myself by having to chamber a round.

Nowhere is this more evident than in Israel, where every soldier is required to carry C3. The chance that any single Israeli soldier will encounter a terrorists is small, and since the adoption of their carry method the incidents of ND/AD have been greatly reduced.

As I've posted so many times previously, I have assessed my personal circumstances, evaluated the many Glock Talk members' admissions to ND/AD incidents, and decided that since my chance of having a ND/AD is greater than facing a potential life-or-death situation (in which I will have no time to chamber a round) I've decided C3 is the better route for me.

And I might add, there's a whole lot more to preparedness than having a chambered round, as I'm sure all readers are aware.

SilenceDoGood
01-30-2013, 16:44
Most people who first start carrying experience Cognitive Dissonance in regards to carrying one in the chamber; that is, you are performing an action that goes against your cultural conditioning. Mainstream western culture is to be overtly cautious around firearms, if not all out afraid. This is the conditioning you grew up in for 18+ years. The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body completley goes against the cultural conditioning. It is a normal question when people first starting carrying, hence why it has been asked for years and years and years on this forum and every other one. The feeling is also normal.

In summation: you are feeling cognitive dissonance, it's normal, carry one in the chamber when you're ready, follow the four rules of gun safety.

NMOFT
01-30-2013, 17:06
Several points I'd like to make in response to your very tactful (or was it sarcastic?) queery:

1. Given my age and lifestyle, the probability of being attacked is nearly 0.
2. Given my skill level, lack of recent training and infrequency of practice, I feel C3 with a Glock is safest for the people around me and for myself.
3. My CC techniques are less important than safety considerations.
4. My affinity for firearms makes CC a practice that is enjoyable in addition to providing a sense of security in some situations.

I hope this helps you understand why some of us carry C3 based upon our particular circumstances.


No sir, no sarcasm intended, I’m just baffled by your risk management strategy. But if it works for you I’ll let this dead horse RIP.

PhotoFeller
01-30-2013, 18:44
No sir, no sarcasm intended, I’m just baffled by your risk management strategy. But if it works for you I’ll let this dead horse RIP.

While I responded to your question, you have chosen not to answer mine about motivation for adopting concealed carry in C1 as a part of everyday life.

You mention being "baffled" by my "risk management" decisions even though I made it clear that my risk of attack is near 0. With such a low probability of attack, I have no motivation to devote more time, energy, training costs and range fees to become better prepared.

Since you opened the door by posing the question I responded to, please do me the courtesy of describing your motivation.

Thanks.

P.S. I strongly endorse professional training, firearm familiarization, gun handling and shooting practice, visualization of attack scenarios, continuous practice of situational awareness and development of other SD skills for anyone who has a real need to carry a firearm. I have engaged in all of these activities in years past, primarily because of my life-long fascination with guns. After 70+ years, I have never been attacked or even felt like I was in a truly dangerous situation.

NMOFT
01-30-2013, 20:07
While I responded to your question, you have chosen not to answer mine about motivation for adopting concealed carry in C1 as a part of everyday life.

You mention being "baffled" by my "risk management" decisions even though I made it clear that my risk of attack is near 0. With such a low probability of attack, I have no motivation to devote more time, energy, training costs and range fees to become better prepared.

Since you opened the door by posing the question I responded to, please do me the courtesy of describing your motivation.

Thanks.

P.S. I strongly endorse professional training, firearm familiarization, gun handling and shooting practice, visualization of attack scenarios, continuous practice of situational awareness and development of other SD skills for anyone who has a real need to carry a firearm. I have engaged in all of these activities in years past, primarily because of my life-long fascination with guns. After 70+ years, I have never been attacked or even felt like I was in a truly dangerous situation.


The motivations for carrying in C1 have already been discussed in depth in previous posts, but since you insist I’ll give you my response.

My motivation is based on my past safety training and experience. I take precautions to manage risk based not on my estimation of the likelihood of a bad event occurring but on the seriousness of the consequences. Therefore I employ all of my PPE all of the time in a complete state of readiness even though the likelihood of it being necessary seems low. The consequences are just too serious to do otherwise.


On the other hand the C3 mindset seems to depend on the ability to accurately predict the unpredictable. You estimate the likely hood of being attacked as being near zero and the likely hood of an ND as being greater than near zero so you mitigate the risk of an ND by carrying a weapon that is for all practical purposes unloaded. Why burden yourself with a weapon at all?


In addition, while you can adopt certain strategies to reduce the risk of a criminal attack, when a criminal does select you as a victim, he has the initiative and you really have no control of the situation at that point. All of you options then become purely reactive until you can regain the initiative.


On the other hand preventing an ND is totally within you control and the risk is easily mitigated by developing a few simple safety habits.

So, I don’t understand the mindset of empty chamber carry. You manage the risk of an ND by keeping you weapon in a state of unreadiness that very likely makes it useless to prevent the very event you carry it for.


Again, I mean no disrespect, I just don’t get it. But that’s OK because really it’s none of my business.
Carry on and have a good day.

chris28456
01-30-2013, 21:37
One in the chamber because you never know what kind of situation you may run into, whatever you choose you must practice, practice, practice. I have seen a product called the siderlock trigger it's a trigger safety for a glock that you may want to check into.

http://www.siderlock.com/

PhotoFeller
01-30-2013, 21:42
The motivations for carrying in C1 have already been discussed in depth in previous posts, but since you insist I’ll give you my response.

My motivation is based on my past safety training and experience. I take precautions to manage risk based not on my estimation of the likelihood of a bad event occurring but on the seriousness of the consequences. Therefore I employ all of my PPE all of the time in a complete state of readiness even though the likelihood of it being necessary seems low. The consequences are just too serious to do otherwise.


On the other hand the C3 mindset seems to depend on the ability to accurately predict the unpredictable. You estimate the likely hood of being attacked as being near zero and the likely hood of an ND as being greater than near zero so you mitigate the risk of an ND by carrying a weapon that is for all practical purposes unloaded. Why burden yourself with a weapon at all?


In addition, while you can adopt certain strategies to reduce the risk of a criminal attack, when a criminal does select you as a victim, he has the initiative and you really have no control of the situation at that point. All of you options then become purely reactive until you can regain the initiative.


On the other hand preventing an ND is totally within you control and the risk is easily mitigated by developing a few simple safety habits.

So, I don’t understand the mindset of empty chamber carry. You manage the risk of an ND by keeping you weapon in a state of unreadiness that very likely makes it useless to prevent the very event you carry it for.


Again, I mean no disrespect, I just don’t get it. But that’s OK because really it’s none of my business.
Carry on and have a good day.

Thanks.

RJ's Guns
01-30-2013, 21:52
Most people who first start carrying experience Cognitive Dissonance in regards to carrying one in the chamber; that is, you are performing an action that goes against your cultural conditioning. Mainstream western culture is to be overtly cautious around firearms, if not all out afraid. This is the conditioning you grew up in for 18+ years. The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body completley goes against the cultural conditioning. It is a normal question when people first starting carrying, hence why it has been asked for years and years and years on this forum and every other one. The feeling is also normal.

In summation: you are feeling cognitive dissonance, it's normal, carry one in the chamber when you're ready, follow the four rules of gun safety.


I had to laugh at your post and for me your statements are preposterous and a bunch of crap.

Perhaps, I did not grow up in the “Main stream (of) western culture” as I am not “overtly cautious around firearms” and definitely “not all out afraid” of them. I am safe, experienced and proficient with firearms and I feel comfortable and secure with firearms on and around me. I feel more comfortable, safe and secure with a loaded firearm on and/or around me, than not having a loaded firearm nearby.

I had to snicker when I read the part about; “The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body (completely) goes against the cultural conditioning.” In the culture that I was raised, carrying a loaded firearm was a regular occurrence from a very early age. Being ready and able to shoot a firearm, to protect the livestock and other property, was a requirement and a duty.

RJ

FireForged
01-30-2013, 23:15
I had to snicker when I read the part about; “The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body (completely) goes against the cultural conditioning.” In the culture that I was raised, carrying a loaded firearm was a regular occurrence from a very early age. Being ready and able to shoot a firearm, to protect the livestock and other property, was a requirement and a duty. [/FONT]

RJ


In most of the Country, a firearm is a tool that is typically close at hand. Purhaps he is talking about Boston

MR57
01-31-2013, 01:47
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
That's a no brainer. I would never think of not having gun chambered. Imagine you get attacked your arm is broken. You can get your gun out but now what? Your dead. I have Glock and XD.

happyguy
01-31-2013, 07:05
I carry C1 and that's what I recommend.

There are a lot of people out there who carry C3 and they do just fine.

Try not to take these things so personal. <---This is important.

C1 carriers are not irresponsible dolts (well most of us anyway) and C3 carriers aren't a bunch of nervous Nellies.

Get a grip.

And thanks to those of you who discussed this like grownups.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

VinnieG
01-31-2013, 07:27
The motivations for carrying in C1 have already been discussed in depth in previous posts, but since you insist I’ll give you my response.

My motivation is based on my past safety training and experience. I take precautions to manage risk based not on my estimation of the likelihood of a bad event occurring but on the seriousness of the consequences. Therefore I employ all of my PPE all of the time in a complete state of readiness even though the likelihood of it being necessary seems low. The consequences are just too serious to do otherwise.


On the other hand the C3 mindset seems to depend on the ability to accurately predict the unpredictable. You estimate the likely hood of being attacked as being near zero and the likely hood of an ND as being greater than near zero so you mitigate the risk of an ND by carrying a weapon that is for all practical purposes unloaded. Why burden yourself with a weapon at all?


In addition, while you can adopt certain strategies to reduce the risk of a criminal attack, when a criminal does select you as a victim, he has the initiative and you really have no control of the situation at that point. All of you options then become purely reactive until you can regain the initiative.


On the other hand preventing an ND is totally within you control and the risk is easily mitigated by developing a few simple safety habits.

So, I don’t understand the mindset of empty chamber carry. You manage the risk of an ND by keeping you weapon in a state of unreadiness that very likely makes it useless to prevent the very event you carry it for.


Again, I mean no disrespect, I just don’t get it. But that’s OK because really it’s none of my business.
Carry on and have a good day.


Great post brother, very well spoken.

tnedator
01-31-2013, 08:05
Some food for thought for those debating and thinking they have practiced enough that racking the slide only takes a half second.

This was posted by Mas Ayoob a few months ago to someone asking about carrying their gun with no round in the chamber.

I go with the round in the chamber philosophy. The handgun is primarily a reactive weapon. NYPD SOP-9 studies indicate that it will be fired one-handed roughly half the time. The attacker may be physically on you, making it impossible to rack the slide with the other hand, and the one-handed fixes for that don't work too well in dynamic movement.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444609&highlight=chamber

In addition to Mas's comment, when I looked at some of the NYPD SOP 9 studies for older shootings (the half shooting one handed was within the last year or so), they had one stat that jumped out. They had tracked fatal officer shootings over a 25 year period that ended in '79, and of those shootings, 1/3 of them the encounter occurred between 0'-3' and half occurred from 3-6'.

I didn't look far enough to see if there was more recent data on the fatal/surviving shooting distances from NYPD. However, if you combine these facts. That the most recent NYPD SOP Study shows that 1/2 of the officers had to shoot with one hand and that in a past study, 81% of the officers that died in shooting encounters did so at distances of less than 6 feet and you can see how carrying with an empty chamber can mean you have zero chance to defend yourself in a significant (if not majority) of situations where you would need to use a firearm to defend yourself or your family.

SCmasterblaster
01-31-2013, 08:21
I certainly do carry my G17 with the chamber loaded. NO ADs or NDs here. I simply keep my finger off the trigger unless I am shooting it at the range. My 115gr JHP +p+ loads are ready for defense.

ashecht
01-31-2013, 09:31
This has been discussed to death. The best safety is between your ears. Without one in the chamber, glocks make terrible hammers. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't fire-period. A proper holster should allow you to draw and re-holster your gun without ever touching the trigger. Look into a holster with a combat cut

SCmasterblaster
01-31-2013, 11:22
This has been discussed to death. The best safety is between your ears. Without one in the chamber, glocks make terrible hammers. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't fire-period. A proper holster should allow you to draw and re-holster your gun without ever touching the trigger. Look into a holster with a combat cut

I agree. The best safety IS in one's brain. And an empty-chambered Glock is almost useless.

ÇAGArms
01-31-2013, 12:44
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

I bought a glock for the reliability. When I started carrying I was uneasy about a hot chamber. I carried a full mag with an empty chamber. And as I got more comfortable with my 19 I gradually moved to a hot chamber. Definitely nice because you are always prepared for an empty chamber or a misfire.

PhotoFeller
01-31-2013, 14:00
This has been discussed to death. The best safety is between your ears. Without one in the chamber, glocks make terrible hammers. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't fire-period. A proper holster should allow you to draw and re-holster your gun without ever touching the trigger. Look into a holster with a combat cut

This subject comes up often because a lot of people are trying to decide which method of carry is right for them.

People who are new to firearms or CC come here looking for guidance. They hope to get answers based on our experience. I try to respond based upon a lifetime of gun experience with safety as the most important principle. Too many others, in my opinion, answer according to what they have read here and in gun mags such as "an unchambered pistol is nothing more than a club or a hammer". There are lots of cliche statements that show up in every thread like this one because people don't have real-life experience to support their statements.

Being conservative in evaluating one's proficiency with a Glock isn't being unmanly or 'chicken', its being smart and mature. Advising EVERYONE who asks about C1 vs C3 that carrying a chambered pistol is the ONLY right answer is foolish, unrealistic, careless and could be downright dangerous.

C1 is fine if you need it and you are truly proficient with your weapon. If you aren't experienced and competent, carry unchambered until you get there. You might even discover along the way that C3 is just fine all the time.

For those who suggest this topic is worn out and threads like this one should automatically be shut down, be advised that this thread has had almost 5,000 views in the short time its been running. I think its an important subject until people stop asking the question.

ÇAGArms
01-31-2013, 14:05
This subject gets chewed on a lot because there are at least two right answers.

You see the world through your lens while I see it through mine. Your opinion is C1 for everybody. My opinion is that folks who lack the experience and training necessary to be proficient with a self defense handgun should carry C3.

People who are new to firearms or CC come here looking for guidance. They hope to get answers based on our experience. I try to respond based upon a lifetime of gun experience with safety as the most important principle. Too many others, in my opinion, answer according to what they have read here and in gun mags such as "an unchambered pistol is nothing more than a club or a hammer". There are lots of cliche statements that show up in every thread like this one because people don't have real-life experience to support their statements.

Being conservative in evaluating one's proficiency with a Glock isn't being unmanly or 'chicken', its being smart and mature. Advising EVERYONE who asks about C1 vs C3 that carrying with a chambered pistol is the ONLY right answer is foolish, unrealistic, careless and could be downright dangerous.

C1 is fine if you need it and you are truly proficient with your weapon. If you aren't experienced and competent, carry unchambered until you get there.

Cannot agree more.

Smithers
01-31-2013, 14:16
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF

How exactly are you contributing to this thread?

This is GlockTalk and it looks to me - the people here are
talking and giving much food for thought.

IMHO

Smithers
01-31-2013, 14:43
Oh God, not again!


:faint:

What exactly is your point ?

Oh, people who aren't aligned with you way of thinking are a waste of time.

I guess your snarkiness is as well.

Smithers
01-31-2013, 14:53
I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.

I concede that this method leaves a gap in my ability to respond to a potential life-or-death situation, but then I consider it no different than having to fumble with a manual safety. (None of my self-defense handguns have a manual safety)

I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.

Nobody can assess his/her individual circumstances except the individual, although it's always good to read suggestions as there are likely issues that one hasn't considered.

That's interesting. I tend to agree with you, particularly since I've never felt the need to even carry a gun (64).

Changing times and all that. I have a S&W 5 shot I sometimes carry and never worry about an A/D.

My G-19 is a different story. Although the need for a weapon can come upon us at any time, I tend to agree with you and keep one in the chamber dependent upon my personal assessment of where I will find myself.

Drugstore in very safe suburb = not chambered

Anywhere within Cleveland borders = chambered

Everything is subject to change

Smithers
01-31-2013, 15:13
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireforged http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19929594#post19929594)
..i can train myself to quickly put on a seatbelt at the earliest sign of a traffic accident, but that plan doesnt seem prudent.

^^+1^^


Gotta admit, that's a heck of a point.

PhotoFeller
01-31-2013, 16:04
That's interesting. I tend to agree with you, particularly since I've never felt the need to even carry a gun (64).

Changing times and all that. I have a S&W 5 shot I sometimes carry and never worry about an A/D.

My G-19 is a different story. Although the need for a weapon can come upon us at any time, I tend to agree with you and keep one in the chamber dependent upon my personal assessment of where I will find myself.

Drugstore in very safe suburb = not chambered

Anywhere within Cleveland borders = chambered

Everything is subject to change

I pretty much follow your practice using C3 unless I'm at Walmart late at night or stopping at an interstate highway rest area.

Many would argue that we should carry one way all the time, and I believe there is merit in that position. I'm still trying to decide what makes the most sense for me.

Right now I feel most comfortable, from a safety standpoint, with C3 when I carry during routine daily activities. In places where bad things are more likely to happen, shifting gears to C1 is an integral part of my situational awareness discipline; I'm on alert in a dark parking lot and I'm aware a round is chambered.

I know my approach flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but for now thats how I do it. I'd rather be armed in C3 than unarmed whenever I am carrying (I don't CC 100% of the time). I feel competent to carry a chambered weapon in the rare instances when I venture into places like public rest parks; a higher level of alertness accompanied by a heightened consciousness that my gun is chambered seems appropriate and safe to me. Let me say again, these are rare instances because my lifestyle doesn't include frequent exposure to high risk situations.

I am continuously thinking about my CC methods because of the responsibility each of us takes on when we carry a firearm. Carrying only in C3 regardless of my surroundings, in the final analysis, might be the best approach for me.

SouthernBoyVA
01-31-2013, 16:19
Thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. My CHL instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "I'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so I thought it was a big deal with Glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and I'll carry it ready to go.

Ask for your money back because this instructor obviously is lacking the required knowledge to teach a basic firearms class.

SouthernBoyVA
01-31-2013, 16:21
I wonder why nobody ever thought to ask this before?

I carry with a round in the chamber. If I don't want the gun to fire, I don't pulll the trigger. If you can't do that, get some OC spray and a rape whistle.

Most police officers in America carry a Glock, every one of them carry it with a round in the chamber. Many of them d0on't even shoot as a hobby - the gun is just work equipment - yet they mostly manage not to shoot themselves. Those that do shoot themselves do it by pointing the gun at themselves and pulling the trigger.

Not quite correct with this one. You should take a look at what happened in Washington, DC after they issued Glocks to their police officers.

SouthernBoyVA
01-31-2013, 16:23
I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this. Some might argue: Practice keeping the f@$#&ng finger off the trigger. And, I do. But, I want an extra precaution for the flight/fight episodes.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a very useful bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.

So how would that work if a BG managed to get a shot off and it made a solid hit on your support arm or hand before you were able to chamber a round?

cbird77
01-31-2013, 16:25
One in the pipe, but make sure your comfortable with it.

JAS104
01-31-2013, 16:27
Glad this was asked, there's nothing on this site about it! ;) . Keep your booger picker off the bang button


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

SouthernBoyVA
01-31-2013, 16:31
This subject comes up from time to time and most always, engenders the same responses. We all have our opinions on this one and are sure that what we believe to be the right way to carry is, indeed, the right way. For example, I would never dream of carrying a defensive arm that is not loaded and in full battery. However, I do understand that there are those who, for whatever reason, just cannot bring themselves to do this. So I submit to you folks the following.

You are not going to know whether or not you took the right decision to carry without a round in the chamber until the time comes where you actually have to call upon your firearm to defend yourself. And even then, you will only know if whether or not your decision was the correct one for that specific event. Just remember, if you make a mistake you can't rewind and do it again. That only works in the movies.

PhotoFeller
01-31-2013, 16:37
Ask for your money back because this instructor obviously is lacking the required knowledge to teach a basic firearms class.

Maybe the instructor meant that a student, someone new to CC, shouldn't carry a Glock with a chambered round. Statements taken out of context do tend to get twisted a bit

PhotoFeller
01-31-2013, 17:48
So how would that work if a BG managed to get a shot off and it made a solid hit on your support arm or hand before you were able to chamber a round?

Please indulge one question about your example in the above post.

Does this happen often, in your judgement, or have you known of any actual case(s) where this has happened?

I ask because decisions about CC for most of us, since we are civilians, should be practical; by that I mean they should be made on the basis of likely scenarios, not abstract possibilities. I know some self defense instructors promote skill development beyond the limits of our likely experiences; such instruction would be better suited for LEOs and military troops who are confronted with different situations than we are. Your example seems to be more appropriate for a professional combatant who works in an environment where they are often the target for an intentional kill shot.

Thanks.

G-nineteen
01-31-2013, 18:03
Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Skilled shooters have never had an ND/AD, right? If you don't carry with a hot chamber, you're a chickens**t wuss, right?

If you are not in LE but often find yourself in situations in which murderous BGs are only 21 feet away and intent on breaking your slide-racking hand, are you exercising Situational Awareness?

My #1 self-preservation tool is Situational Awareness. If you have to point a gun at a BG outside your home, have you not made a long series of questionable decisions regarding your surroundings? I too, lead a staid, boring lifestyle.

/flame on

Arc Angel
01-31-2013, 18:05
Have I not done a wonderful job of staying out of this one! :supergrin:

rockapede
01-31-2013, 18:12
Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Skilled shooters have never had an ND/AD, right? If you don't carry with a hot chamber, you're a chickens**t wuss, right?

If you are not in LE but often find yourself in situations in which murderous BGs are only 21 feet away and intent on breaking your slide-racking hand, are you exercising Situational Awareness?

My #1 self-preservation tool is Situational Awareness. If you have to point a gun at a BG outside your home, have you not made a long series of utterly stupid and potentially fatal decisions? I too, lead a staid, boring lifestyle.

/flame on

You mostly had me until your last paragraph. Situational awareness is great, except it's not foolproof. You can do everything right and still end up in a gunfight. You can do everything right in a gunfight and still get killed.

Imagine you're in a classroom/store/or other building. Some lunatic chains the doors shut in your building and starts killing everyone in sight. How, exactly, does your situational awareness help you here? If you're carrying, you're probably now in a situation where you're going to be forced to engage. It's not because you did anything "utterly stupid and potentially fatal", either. Honestly (and I'm really not trying to flame you), why even carry a gun if you really believe what you wrote?

clarson_75
01-31-2013, 18:15
If safety is the issue, why not try this. Carry the gun for say 6 months with a snap cap in the chamber.(if anything happens you had planned on racking the slide anyway) The snap cap will let you know if you do something wrong. When you finally become comfortable that your safety habits fit into your daily routine, then swap in a live round.

G-nineteen
01-31-2013, 18:28
Dang it, my emotional restraint failed. I've edited my post above to remove the offensive language. My bad.

Several times, it has been opined that without one in the chamber, you are carrying a hammer. Can we disagree like men? I realize this is the new-fangled Interwebz.

I hope I haven't derailed PhotoFeller's questions from post #176. I'd love to see the answers.

NolePhin
01-31-2013, 18:44
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

Gun Gripes Episode 6: "Safety Issues" - YouTube

G-nineteen
01-31-2013, 18:58
Risk assessment:

1. probability of ND/AD

VS.

2. probability of a non-LE facing a lethal situation, AND not having time to rack, OR having one hand/arm disabled at the start of the engagement.

However you carry, train to become proficient and safe. ND/AD make us all look bad. This has been a public service message from...ME.

PhotoFeller
01-31-2013, 18:59
If safety is the issue, why not try this. Carry the gun for say 6 months with a snap cap in the chamber.(if anything happens you had planned on racking the slide anyway) The snap cap will let you know if you do something wrong. When you finally become comfortable that your safety habits fit into your daily routine, then swap in a live round.

What you suggest is a good start for someone new to CC. As proficiency progresses, the move to C1 can be made.

Often a point of debate here is that the probability of a life-threatening attack is near zero', and the common retort by C1 proponents is that "a low probability is meaningless when someone is actually attacked".

When the C1 proponent's logic is used to discuss NDs, the logic is rejected. To a statement that the probability of a ND is low, but when one occurs, someone could be killed or seriously injured, the retort is "all you have to do is keep your finger off of the trigger until you're ready to shoot; if you do that, an ND just can't happen."

The notion that NDs represent 0 probability when the mind-controlled trigger finger is properly conditioned is, in my opinion, malarkey. We are much less perfect in our gun handling techniques than many are willing to admit. Perfection just isn't possible. If someone has a different way of looking at this, I would be anxious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

GlockFanWA
01-31-2013, 19:00
Yep the instructor is a glock hater

I run into this from time to time. I don't if someone doens't like Glock handguns, there are handguns I don't like too. Just be smart about why you don't like them or admit your bias.

GreenDrake
01-31-2013, 19:17
If one is not familiar or comfortable with their chosen weapon for concealed carry, it is my personal opinion that that person should not carry. Firearms are engineered to be carried chambered and ready. You are not quick draw Israeli-carry man, give yourself a fighting chance.

G-nineteen
01-31-2013, 19:25
What you suggest is a good start for someone new to CC. As proficiency progresses, the move to C1 can be made.

Often a point of debate here is that the probability of a life-threatening attack is near zero', and the common retort by C1 proponents is that "a low probability is meaningless when someone is actually attacked".

When the C1 proponent's logic is used to discuss NDs, the logic is rejected. To a statement that the probability of a ND is low, but when one occurs, someone could be killed or seriously injured, the retort is "all you have to do is keep your finger off of the trigger until you're ready to shoot; if you do that, an ND just can't happen."

The notion that NDs represent a 0 probability when the mind-controlled trigger finger is properly conditioned is, in my opinion, malarkey. We are much less perfect in our gun handling techniques than many are willing to admit. Perfection just isn't possible. If someone has a different way of looking at this, I would be anxious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

Injecting reason, logic, and the laws of probability into an internet forum while removing emotion and not questioning anyone's intellect or manhood. Why...that's a dirty trick :rofl:

PhotoFeller
01-31-2013, 20:52
If one is not familiar or comfortable with their chosen weapon for concealed carry, it is my personal opinion that that person should not carry. Firearms are engineered to be carried chambered and ready. You are not quick draw Israeli-carry man, give yourself a fighting chance.

I've been thinking about your post, and I come away with two conclusions.

To suggest that I shouldn't be armed at all if I won't carry C1 is way off the mark considering that my judgement is based on the level of competency I feel is needed to carry C1, and your's is based on a generalized notion that C1 is the only acceptable self defense mode.

With respect to guns being "...engineered to be carried chambered and ready", I recall that my Toyota is "engineered" to run well over 100 mph, but that speed exceeds my driving skill level and the legal speed limit. Should I drive at speeds that the machine is capable of or stay within the limits of my driving skill?

zbomb
01-31-2013, 21:08
With respect to guns being "...engineered to be carried chambered and ready", I recall that my Toyota is "engineered" to run well over 100 mph, but that speed exceeds my driving skill level and the legal speed limit. Should I drive at speeds that the machine is capable of or stay within the limits of my driving skill?

If your life depends on it....ya.

VinnieG
01-31-2013, 21:17
I've been thinking about your post, and I come away with two conclusions.

To suggest that I shouldn't be armed at all if I won't carry C1 is way off the mark considering that my judgement is based on the level of competency I feel is needed to carry C1, and your's is based on a generalized notion that C1 is the only acceptable self defense mode.

With respect to guns being "...engineered to be carried chambered and ready", I recall that my Toyota is "engineered" to run well over 100 mph, but that speed exceeds my driving skill level and the legal speed limit. Should I drive at speeds that the machine is capable of or stay within the limits of my driving skill?

I think your Toyota analogy is off the mark bro. Your truck is capable to run 100mph but not designed for it. It would never last at that speed and rpm for long, compared to how long those trucks will run.
A glock on the other hand was designed for c1. If it was not the need for internal safetys would not be there.
I'm not sayin that you should not carry because you carry c3. Just my observation bro.
I do believe that carrying in c3 is a handy cap for anyone in a self defense situation. But the great thing is we each get to make our own choice on how we want to carry. I always carry c1 and sure as heck dont want or expect to take s-it for it. And I would not give it to you or anyone else that carrys c3.

happyguy
01-31-2013, 21:40
trucks will run.
A glock on the other hand was designed for c1.

Citation please.

Glocks were designed for the Austrian army. What condition do they carry in?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

VinnieG
01-31-2013, 23:33
Citation please.

Glocks were designed for the Austrian army. What condition do they carry in?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

The condition that they carry in was not listed in the original specs for the pistol. It was listed that the pistol could not fire from a shock test, I believe it was a 2 meter drop on a hard surface. So I guess you and I are both speculating on how the pistol was designed to be carried
I keep hearing people bring up how Israel carrys and now how Austria carrys. That has nothing to do with how a civilian or le carrys in this country. A soldier, I don't care what country, does not walk around in a combat zone with a c3 pistol in a holster as his primary weapon.
In this country (not a war zone) there is no known safe zone. You never know when or where a self defense situation will happen. It's two totally different things

unit1069
02-01-2013, 00:33
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

Gun Gripes Episode 6: "Safety Issues" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3-Efwp-Pag)

At the outset the demonstrator shows just how quickly a defender can rack the slide.

He also has good familiarity with a number of different weapon designs, and the last sentence he spoke tells us his next video will cover, " ... all the negligent discharges I've had in my life". That's another anecdotal bit telling me that experience with firearms doesn't inoculate a person from potential disaster.

GreenDrake
02-01-2013, 06:22
I merely stated my personal opinion, and prefaced it as such. No intent to offend those of you who do not carry in that capacity. As for me, I don't even want a thumb or grip safety anymore, just booger hook on the bang switch and one in the pipe. No bravado, just want as few facets of motion to ensure what happens if I have to use it.

happyguy
02-01-2013, 07:00
The condition that they carry in was not listed in the original specs for the pistol. It was listed that the pistol could not fire from a shock test, I believe it was a 2 meter drop on a hard surface. So I guess you and I are both speculating on how the pistol was designed to be carried
I keep hearing people bring up how Israel carrys and now how Austria carrys. That has nothing to do with how a civilian or le carrys in this country. A soldier, I don't care what country, does not walk around in a combat zone with a c3 pistol in a holster as his primary weapon.
In this country (not a war zone) there is no known safe zone. You never know when or where a self defense situation will happen. It's two totally different things

Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

tnedator
02-01-2013, 07:04
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

Gun Gripes Episode 6: "Safety Issues" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3-Efwp-Pag)

Since I'm sure a lot of people won't take the time to watch the video. To clarify, he said he didn't carry one in the chamber of his G19, because he uses a clip carry system of some kind, meaning the gun is hung from a clip IWB with nothing covering the chamber.

He then did demonstrate how quickly you can rack it and chamber a round. As has been discussed ad nausea, it clearly is very fast to chamber a round, when you've trained thousands or tens of thousands of times to make that second nature, and more importantly, if you are lucky enough to have one of those encounters where you can use both hands drawing the encounter.

VinnieG
02-01-2013, 08:55
Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

The manual says no to condition 1 for civilian use. I interpret this as c1 is ok, but a higher level of training is needed.
This is just my opinion and interpretation. I believe if they did not intend for the glock to be carried c1, the manual would have not specified "for civilian use".

PhotoFeller
02-01-2013, 09:54
The manual says no to condition 1 for civilian use. I interpret this as c1 is ok, but a higher level of training is needed.
This is just my opinion and interpretation. I believe if they did not intend for the glock to be carried c1, the manual would have not specified "for civilian use".

The company may be assuming that military and police buyers receive adequate training to carry the pistol without a manual safety. Thus, the warning against C1 applies only to civilians.

My understanding is that Glock was sued by agencies and individuals in the beginning because of numerous ND incidents. That likely prompted the company to warn against chambered carry when civilians are acquiring the guns.

It is interesting that the manual doesn't say chambered carry is ok when proceeded by proper training. I wonder if the manuals provided with LEO purchases also contain the warning against C1.

Glock's statement in the manual clearly underscores the inherent danger of carrying its pistols with a round chambered. IT ALSO MEANS THAT A ND RESULTING IN DEATH, INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE WILL BE DIFFICULT TO DEFEND BECAUSE THE FIREARM WAS USED IN A MANNER THE MANUFACTURER CLEARLY WARNS AGAINST. This is a very significant fact that anyone carrying in C1 should think seriously about.

Thanks for the info, Vinnie.

VinnieG
02-01-2013, 10:21
The company must be assuming that military and police buyers receive adequate training to carry the pistol without a manual safety. Thus, the warning against C1 applies only to civilians.

My understanding is that Glock was sued by agencies and individuals in the beginning because of numerous ND incidents. That likely prompted the company to warn against chambered carry when civilians are acquiring the guns. Product liability cases can be very expensive, especially for products like firearms.

It is interesting that the manual doesn't say chambered carry is ok when proceeded by proper training. I wonder if the manuals provided with LEO purchases also contain the warning against C1.

Thanks for the info, Vinnie.

Let me do some lookin bro. I should still have the manual from my issued glock that I bought from my department when we switched to m&p

Smithers
02-01-2013, 10:26
Have I not done a wonderful job of staying out of this one! :supergrin:

I find your posts very interesting.

Thanks for stopping the flapping wings.

Did I say thanks for stopping the flapping wings?

PhotoFeller
02-01-2013, 10:41
Glock's statement in the manual [warning against C1 carry] clearly underscores the inherent danger of carrying its pistols with a round chambered. IT ALSO MEANS THAT A ND [negligent discharge] RESULTING IN DEATH, INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE WILL BE DIFFICULT TO DEFEND BECAUSE THE FIREARM WAS USED IN A MANNER THE MANUFACTURER CLEARLY WARNS AGAINST. This is a very significant fact that anyone carrying in C1 should think seriously about.

This important point should not get lost in the shuffle. Its also important to note that I'm not a lawyer, so this statement regarding legal consequences of a negligent discharge in C1 represents only my opinion.

I suspect the defense would be even more difficult if it was discovered that the Glock was set up with a 5# or lighter trigger pull. This might be another factor in determining the degree of negligence.

SCmasterblaster
02-01-2013, 11:38
That's interesting. I tend to agree with you, particularly since I've never felt the need to even carry a gun (64).

Changing times and all that. I have a S&W 5 shot I sometimes carry and never worry about an A/D.

My G-19 is a different story. Although the need for a weapon can come upon us at any time, I tend to agree with you and keep one in the chamber dependent upon my personal assessment of where I will find myself.

Drugstore in very safe suburb = not chambered

Anywhere within Cleveland borders = chambered

Everything is subject to change

I'm from Cleveland, and if I ever visited there, I'd have one in the chamber for sure.

SouthernBoyVA
02-01-2013, 14:02
Please indulge one question about your example in the above post.

Does this happen often, in your judgement, or have you known of any actual case(s) where this has happened?

I ask because decisions about CC for most of us, since we are civilians, should be practical; by that I mean they should be made on the basis of likely scenarios, not abstract possibilities. I know some self defense instructors promote skill development beyond the limits of our likely experiences; such instruction would be better suited for LEOs and military troops who are confronted with different situations than we are. Your example seems to be more appropriate for a professional combatant who works in an environment where they are often the target for an intentional kill shot.

Thanks.

I would doubt if it happens very often but then again, I would not want to be the example of the rarity of this taking place. As for;

"I ask because decisions about CC for most of us, since we are civilians, should be practical; by that I mean they should be made on the basis of likely scenarios, not abstract possibilities."

My take is to try my best to envision the widest set of possibilities that I can, then use that as my guide. True, some things are much less likely to become reality than others, but it is usually those things which we either didn't plan for or consider that catch us off guard and in the case of criminal attacks, could cost us dearly.

My position on carrying in full battery or with an empty chamber is simple. I view it as a personal choice. However when the question is raised on an open forum, then the requester is game for whatever ensues.... hopefully with a decent measure of civility tossed in. In other words, the opinions will flow and well they should when such questions are posed. Still, it IS the individual's choice and decision to take and no one else's and I completely respect that.

SouthernBoyVA
02-01-2013, 14:10
Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Actually, there is something to the idea that not only Glock, but probably all handguns design for defense were meant to be carried in full battery. In the case of Glock, reference the internal safety systems employed in the design. When viewed in this light, it is clear that the intent was that the carrier should have a round in the chamber, ready to go.

However in the final analysis, it is up to the individual how they wish to carry their sidearm. That, and nothing else, is the real arbiter of this issue.

SouthernBoyVA
02-01-2013, 14:17
This important point should not get lost in the shuffle. Its also important to note that I'm not a lawyer, so this statement regarding legal consequences of a negligent discharge in C1 represents only my opinion.

I suspect the defense would be even more difficult if it was discovered that the Glock was set up with a 5# or lighter trigger pull. This might be another factor in determining the degree of negligence.

If you pull your gun, point it at someone, and pull the trigger, all done with deliberation and intent, there is no case of a ND or an AD. Doesn't matter what the pull weight of the trigger is or anything else. What does matter is that your actions were intended and deliberate and that you had justification to do this.

As for the quote from the manual.... now I'm going to have to go down in my basement and check that out. My guess is that Glock is simply covering their butts on this. Just like all the other red printing one sees in an owner's manual for a firearm.


UPDATE TO PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH
I pulled out the manual for my primary carry gen3 G23 and looked through the entire thing for anything in red (their warnings printing) that recommends civilians not carry with a round in the chamber. I found nothing in this manual like this.

VinnieG
02-01-2013, 16:19
Let me do some lookin bro. I should still have the manual from my issued glock that I bought from my department when we switched to m&p

I looked in my older manual and it also says that c1 is not recomended for civilian use.
Both are on page 15 towards the bottom in red. One manual is a gen 3 and the other is for gen 3 and 4.

PhotoFeller
02-01-2013, 17:05
Whether we agree or disagree on these points, the exchange is valuable, hopefully, to others in this quandary. As you and others have said, Southern Boy, the final decision is up to each person who carries a gun. In the end, the responsibility and accountability rest squarely on each individual's shoulders.

PhotoFeller
02-01-2013, 17:29
If you pull your gun, point it at someone, and pull the trigger, all done with deliberation and intent, there is no case of a ND or an AD. Doesn't matter what the pull weight of the trigger is or anything else. What does matter is that your actions were intended and deliberate and that you had justification to do this.

Of course you are right, but in this post you simply state the obvious.

My point about the consequences of mishandling a Glock with the result that someone died or was injured turns on the fact that the owners manual specifically advises against carrying with a chambered round. One's defense that the incident was an accident and negligence was not a factor would fly in the face of plain language in the manual. I'm suggesting one's defense in a ND liability case would be very difficult if the manufacturer's warning was ignored.

SouthernBoyVA
02-01-2013, 17:32
I looked in my older manual and it also says that c1 is not recomended for civilian use.
Both are on page 15 towards the bottom in red. One manual is a gen 3 and the other is for gen 3 and 4.

Wow, I totally missed that and you are correct. Of course, they are just covering their butts since they have to know that few are going to adhere to this suggestion when carrying a defensive sidearm.

PhotoFeller
02-01-2013, 17:49
Wow, I totally missed that and you are correct. Of course, they are just covering their butts since they have to know that few are going to adhere to this suggestion when carrying a defensive sidearm.

I suspect Glock is covering its butt against product liability suits stemming from people being accidentally shot due to the absence of a manual safety device. The company faced many such suits early on because police officer and civilian NDs were widespread.

When Glock takes itself out of the liability mix by putting the warning in red in its manual, the full responsibility lands squarely on the gun owner.

SouthernBoyVA
02-01-2013, 18:13
Of course you are right, but in this post you simply state the obvious.

My point about the consequences of mishandling a Glock with the result that someone died or was injured turns on the fact that the owners manual specifically advises against carrying with a chambered round. One's defense that the incident was an accident and negligence was not a factor would fly in the face of plain language in the manual. I'm suggesting one's defense in a ND liability case would be very difficult if the manufacturer's warning was ignored.

I'm not so sure that would enter the picture in a criminal case but in a civil case, it would not surprise if it did. However, even with a criminal case, if you live in an area where the district attorney is known to have a negative opinion of citizens carrying guns, my guess is to people like that anything is subject to presentation.


On a different note, you have brought up this same topic before and have been the target of some pretty strong comments. It is commendable of you that you managed to keep your cool and remain civil under some of the responses you received. You have a particular view of how you wish to carry and for others to chastise you for this shows their lack of character..... not yours. Opinions offered in good measure are appreciated. Those given in less than civil tongue are products of questionable minds.

PhotoFeller
02-01-2013, 19:46
I'm not so sure that would enter the picture in a criminal case but in a civil case, it would not surprise if it did. However, even with a criminal case, if you live in an area where the district attorney is known to have a negative opinion of citizens carrying guns, my guess is to people like that anything is subject to presentation.


On a different note, you have brought up this same topic before and have been the target of some pretty strong comments. It is commendable of you that you managed to keep your cool and remain civil under some of the responses you received. You have a particular view of how you wish to carry and for others to chastise you for this shows their lack of character..... not yours. Opinions offered in good measure are appreciated. Those given in less than civil tongue are products of questionable minds.

Thanks. I've enjoyed and given serious thought to your points.

I probably have overstayed my welcome on this subject. My intent has always been to provide balance to the debate. People new to firearms and CC need to carefully consider their options and consciously think about the responsibility that accompanies their decisions.

I've said all I can say, and that was probably too much. I hope the OP isn't offended that I pushed my thoughts so intently.

happyguy
02-01-2013, 21:13
Actually, there is something to the idea that not only Glock, but probably all handguns design for defense were meant to be carried in full battery. In the case of Glock, reference the internal safety systems employed in the design. When viewed in this light, it is clear that the intent was that the carrier should have a round in the chamber, ready to go.

However in the final analysis, it is up to the individual how they wish to carry their sidearm. That, and nothing else, is the real arbiter of this issue.

Not so clear if you think about it. The gun is obviously designed to be relatively impervious to knocks and drops when there is a round in the chamber, but it does not necessarily follow that it is designed to be carried that way.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

jlavallee
02-01-2013, 21:36
If you're not responsible about handling your gun and that means following the 4 rules along with a holster that protects the trigger then you're probably not ready for carry.

If you're responsible there is zero reason to carry a brick instead of a gun. Put a round in the chamber.

Of course, you are free to do as you choose as long as you don't infringe on me but I fail to see any reason beyond irrational fear to carry on an empty chamber unless you have a pre transfer bar revolver or a old design gun without drop safties and the like. In that case, I'd get a newer gun.

Arc Angel
02-01-2013, 21:48
I find your posts very interesting.

Thanks for stopping the flapping wings.

Did I say thanks for stopping the flapping wings?

Ahh, yes, you sure did! ;)

unit1069
02-01-2013, 22:37
Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Thanks for the interesting information.

As long as a self-defense shooting was legitimate I doubt carrying with a chambered round would make any difference at all, but a trigger that had been modified --- a point raised elsewhere --- may certainly figure into an anti-rights prosecutor's decision to pursue charges against the defender.

Arc Angel
02-02-2013, 06:24
Thanks for the interesting information.

As long as a self-defense shooting was legitimate I doubt carrying with a chambered round would make any difference at all, but a trigger that had been modified --- a point raised elsewhere --- may certainly figure into an anti-rights prosecutor's decision to pursue charges against the defender.

:shocked: You really are a Rocket Scientist! (I'm impressed!) :thumbsup:

Here ya go! http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=576

SouthernBoyVA
02-02-2013, 07:22
Not so clear if you think about it. The gun is obviously designed to be relatively impervious to knocks and drops when there is a round in the chamber, but it does not necessarily follow that it is designed to be carried that way.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

I believe their intent was to create a design that made the gun as safe as possible but also to be immediately ready to use in the event that it was called upon. I also believe that their statement about civilians not carrying with a loaded chamber was a result of some suits filed against them by people who should have sued themselves for negligence (pun intended). Case in point.

About two years ago, a man in a area shopping center parking lot shot himself in his right leg while holstering his Glock .40&W, which I think was a model 23. He died from his wound (he exsanguinated from a severed femoral artery). His children were in his SUV at the time of his death.

The shopping center doesn't allow firearms so he had apparently removed his and put it in the glove box before going into the center. When they went back to their vehicle, the wife had to go back for something and the father stayed with the kids in the SUV. He removed his gun from the glove box and when holstering it, the gun discharged. He had enough presence of mind to call 911, but he died on the scene. Seems a shirt tail* had gotten caught in the trigger guard and as he inserted his gun into his holster, it applied enough pressure on the trigger to fire the gun.

This is something I am always aware of on those rare times I disarm (like before going into a post office). I rearm outside of my car while standing up to make certain nothing gets in the way of my firearm and in the remote chance it does and the gun discharges, the bullet won't strike my leg.

A simple slip, a careless movement, perhaps a lack of training or consideration cost this man his life.


* Now that I think about this a little more, it wasn't a shirt tail. It was a part of his leather holster that had turned in a little and caught the trigger.

soflasmg
02-02-2013, 07:59
You are right to be concerned about the Glock trigger.

Make sure the holster material that covers the trigger is rigid, and you are good to go.

SouthernBoyVA
02-02-2013, 10:56
You are right to be concerned about the Glock trigger.

Make sure the holster material that covers the trigger is rigid, and you are good to go.

I agree and I have a leather holster which caused my gen3 G23's magazine to slip loose because the holster managed to press the magazine catch button enough to release the magazine. Needless to say, I don't use that holster any longer.

I try to handle my sidearm as little as possible when it is on my person. When I remove it from my belt at home, the gun does not leave the holster since it is just as good of a protective device when not on me as it is when on my side.

unit1069
02-02-2013, 11:29
:shocked: You really are a Rocket Scientist! (I'm impressed!) :thumbsup:



Thanks, Arc. I'm just about done solving the Unified Field Theory. :supergrin:

unit1069
02-02-2013, 11:34
A simple slip, a careless movement, perhaps a lack of training or consideration cost this man his life.

And these ND/AD incidents happen even with experienced shooters, frequently in police precincts where officers have been thoroughly trained in handling their duty weapons.

Smithers
02-02-2013, 11:41
Ahh, yes, you sure did! ;)

Good one - Excellent

SouthernBoyVA
02-02-2013, 11:50
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

Gun Gripes Episode 6: "Safety Issues" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3-Efwp-Pag)

Please note the context in which he makes this statement. In his opening statements, he talked about how the Glock was an exceptionally safe firearm and as long as you kept your finger off of the trigger, it was not going to fire. He then went into describing how he was currently carrying his Glock... with an IWB clip on the gun. I agree that I would not want to carry chambered with this sort of setup.

So his context when speaking about carrying with an empty chamber was directed towards carrying as he was at the time he made this recording. I have watch a lot of videos of these two gentle and not once that I can recall, have either of them recommended carrying out of full battery when using a quality holster. The difference is in the details. Carrying a Glock in a pants or jacket pocket or with an IWB clip versus carrying with a proper holster that protects the trigger is all the difference in the world.

SouthpawG26
02-02-2013, 14:10
From what I have gathered over the years of international LE NDs with Glocks, the overwhelming majority of these NDs occurred on reholstering the firearm (finger in the trigger guard, clothing being caught on the reholstering action, flexible holster materials etc).

NDs on drawing a C1 Glock seem to have occurred a full order of magnitude less NDs on reholstering of the firearm.

Miller205
02-04-2013, 15:51
My CCW permit instructor (a Glock fan), stated, "if you are not willing to carry with the chamber loaded, then you shouldn't be carrying at all."

PhotoFeller
02-04-2013, 19:14
My CCW permit instructor (a Glock fan), stated, "if you are not willing to carry with the chamber loaded, then you shouldn't be carrying at all."

Miller - Did you come away from your CCW class with the belief that you are competent to carry a Glock with a round in the chamber?

Hamburglar500
02-04-2013, 19:37
Get a good holster and keep one in the chamber. I for one would not want to give up precious seconds chambering a round.

Arc Angel
02-04-2013, 20:47
Get a good holster and keep one in the chamber. I for one would not want to give up precious seconds chambering a round.

:shocked: You're kidding, right!

(Are you really THAT slow?) :freak:

SevenSixtyTwo
02-05-2013, 05:58
If you're going to carry empty chamber, practice practice practice that way. Several seconds to chamber a round is unacceptable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUd2FzZm70w

Miller205
02-05-2013, 06:30
Miller - Did you come away from your CCW class with the belief that you are competent to carry a Glock with a round in the chamber?

No, I didn't. I don't think the one class is near enough. Its been too long since I shot on a regular basis, but a bigger part for me is to fully adopt the right frame of mind which accepts the responsibility of carrying. I have signed up for a defensive pistol course (2 days), that I believe will better prepare me for that. And, more time at the range before I carry the Glock.

I have spent a considerable amount of time practicing with my revolver (S&W snub .38), but I need to get comfortable with the Glock, which is new to me.

PhotoFeller
02-05-2013, 07:17
No, I didn't. I don't think the one class is near enough. Its been too long since I shot on a regular basis, but a bigger part for me is to fully adopt the right frame of mind which accepts the responsibility of carrying. I have signed up for a defensive pistol course (2 days), that I believe will better prepare me for that. And, more time at the range before I carry the Glock.

I have spent a considerable amount of time practicing with my revolver (S&W snub .38), but I need to get comfortable with the Glock, which is new to me.

I appreciate your answer. In my humble opinion, your thinking seems perfectly in tune with responsible handgun ownership. Your development plan sounds like a good model for anyone new to CC with a Glock pistol.

Toetag
02-05-2013, 09:10
my ccw permit instructor (a glock fan), stated, "if you are not willing to carry with the chamber loaded, then you shouldn't be carrying at all."

^^^^^^^^^
this.

Arc Angel
02-05-2013, 09:34
If you're going to carry empty chamber, practice practice practice that way. Several seconds to chamber a round is unacceptable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUd2FzZm70w

:thumbsup: Yup! That's about it. I've seen faster; heck, I've been faster; but, now that I'm old, the guy in the video is about as quick as I'm still able to be.

If anyone is wondering about the actual time differences? A good pistolero will add no more than .25 second to his shot speed; a decent gunman will add between .35 and .45 second to his shot speed. The last time I was timed (a few years ago, now) the best I did was .38 and my averages ran between .42 and .47 second.

Is there a disadvantage to the, 'Mossad Draw'? Yes, you've got to employ both hands - Internet ballyhoo aside, that's about it! Some people say that this is a huge disadvantage IF you get hit in an arm, and have one limb out of commission.

However, anyone who gets hit anywhere is - as long as he's not running on, 'pure adrenaline' - probably going to be out of the fight. If not permanently then, at least, for the moment. All bullet wounds hurt; so the, 'you've just been shot in the arm' objection tends to be highly prejudiced. The trick, the art, is simply not to get hit first - Period.

It can, also, be a mistake to assume that just because you're in C-1 you're going to be faster than the other guy and win the fight. In the real world (off the Internet) that simply isn't true; AND, I am, also, 100% certain it isn't true. There are an awful lot of, 'C-1 Glockeroo Cowboys' out there who represent a serious potential danger to their: families, friends, all strangers they come into contact with, and themselves as well from unnecessary daily C-1 carry.

Still, I've been on the Internet long enough to know that there's just no talking to some people; they ain't never been involved in a civilian armed encounter; they're, probably, never going to be involved in any CQB gunfight - anywhere, ever - and, still, they're willing to, 'risk it all' on unnecessary Daily C-1 carry. :freak:

SCmasterblaster
02-05-2013, 10:42
:thumbsup: Yup! That's about it. I've seen faster; heck, I've been faster; but, now that I'm old, the guy in the video is about as quick as I'm still able to be.

If anyone is wondering about the actual time differences? A good pistolero will add no more than .25 second to his shot speed; a decent gunman will add between .35 and .45 second to his shot speed. The last time I was timed (a few years ago, now) the best I did was .38 and my averages ran between .42 and .47 second.

Is there a disadvantage to the, 'Mossad Draw'? Yes, you've got to employ both hands - Internet ballyhoo aside, that's about it! Some people say that this is a huge disadvantage IF you get hit in an arm, and have one limb out of commission.

However, anyone who gets hit anywhere is - as long as he's not running on, 'pure adrenaline' - probably going to be out of the fight. If not permanently then, at least, for the moment. All bullet wounds hurt; so the, 'you've just been shot in the arm' objection tends to be highly prejudiced. The trick, the art, is simply not to get hit first - Period.

It can, also, be a mistake to assume that just because you're in C-1 you're going to be faster than the other guy and win the fight. In the real world (off the Internet) that simply isn't true; AND, I am, also, 100% certain it isn't true. There are an awful lot of, 'C-1 Glockeroo Cowboys' out there who represent a serious potential danger to their: families, friends, all strangers they come into contact with, and themselves as well from unnecessary daily C-1 carry.

Still, I've been on the Internet long enough to know that there's just no talking to some people; they ain't never been involved in a civilian armed encounter; they're, probably, never going to be involved in any CQB gunfight - anywhere, ever - and, still, they're willing to, 'risk it all' on unnecessary Daily C-1 carry. :freak:

This is all good, simple advice. :cool:

unit1069
02-05-2013, 13:14
It can, also, be a mistake to assume that just because you're in C-1 you're going to be faster than the other guy and win the fight. In the real world (off the Internet) that simply isn't true; AND, I am, also, 100% certain it isn't true. There are an awful lot of, 'C-1 Glockeroo Cowboys' out there who represent a serious potential danger to their: families, friends, all strangers they come into contact with, and themselves as well from unnecessary daily C-1 carry.

Exactly so, and I would further add that (as in my case) it's not an either/or dogma with CCW, just one condition or the other depending on the circumstances I anticipate.

JuneyBooney
02-05-2013, 21:40
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

This argument was even ongoing back in the 1800s when the revolver could get stolen and used against the person carrying the weapon. If you have a holster that covers the trigger you should be safe to have one in the chamber. You can also carry Israeli style until you get comfortable or even buy a different firearm for carry. If you have the money HK Uso Compacts are real nice.

tnedator
02-06-2013, 07:02
:thumbsup: Yup! That's about it. I've seen faster; heck, I've been faster; but, now that I'm old, the guy in the video is about as quick as I'm still able to be.

If anyone is wondering about the actual time differences? A good pistolero will add no more than .25 second to his shot speed; a decent gunman will add between .35 and .45 second to his shot speed. The last time I was timed (a few years ago, now) the best I did was .38 and my averages ran between .42 and .47 second.

Is there a disadvantage to the, 'Mossad Draw'? Yes, you've got to employ both hands - Internet ballyhoo aside, that's about it! Some people say that this is a huge disadvantage IF you get hit in an arm, and have one limb out of commission.

However, anyone who gets hit anywhere is - as long as he's not running on, 'pure adrenaline' - probably going to be out of the fight. If not permanently then, at least, for the moment. All bullet wounds hurt; so the, 'you've just been shot in the arm' objection tends to be highly prejudiced. The trick, the art, is simply not to get hit first - Period.

It can, also, be a mistake to assume that just because you're in C-1 you're going to be faster than the other guy and win the fight. In the real world (off the Internet) that simply isn't true; AND, I am, also, 100% certain it isn't true. There are an awful lot of, 'C-1 Glockeroo Cowboys' out there who represent a serious potential danger to their: families, friends, all strangers they come into contact with, and themselves as well from unnecessary daily C-1 carry.

Still, I've been on the Internet long enough to know that there's just no talking to some people; they ain't never been involved in a civilian armed encounter; they're, probably, never going to be involved in any CQB gunfight - anywhere, ever - and, still, they're willing to, 'risk it all' on unnecessary Daily C-1 carry. :freak:

Well written post and nice info on the times. I guess two points come to mind.

1. Using the logic in your last paragraph, why carry at all. Most people, virtually everyone that has a CCL/CCW will never be involved in a CQB or any other gunfight? Is it just something to do because you can or it's cool, since odds are overwhelming that you will never have to use it?

2. In that unlikely scenario that you do have to use a gun, the issue is not that you're shot in your weak arm and it's dangling useless (yes, it's possible, but not the more likely scenario), but instead, the fact that the vast majority of armed encounters are very short distances. So, either A. that half second may very well be a factor if the person is 5 yards away, and B. it is very likely that you will need to try and hold off an attacker with your off hand, while drawing and point shooting with your strong hand (the reason this is routinely taught in self defense classes).

tnedator
02-06-2013, 07:23
This argument was even ongoing back in the 1800s when the revolver could get stolen and used against the person carrying the weapon. If you have a holster that covers the trigger you should be safe to have one in the chamber. You can also carry Israeli style until you get comfortable or even buy a different firearm for carry. If you have the money HK Uso Compacts are real nice.

I think this is probably my biggest head scratcher with those not carrying one in the chamber out of concern for an AD. Why buy a Glock/M&P/etc. then? Get a DA/SA with a safety (not just decocker). Then, you have both a heavier trigger pull in case you accidentally pull the trigger or it gets caught on your clothing, but more importantly it has an external safety.

Arc Angel
02-06-2013, 12:44
Well written post and nice info on the times. I guess two points come to mind.

1. Using the logic in your last paragraph, why carry at all. Most people, virtually everyone that has a CCL/CCW will never be involved in a CQB or any other gunfight? Is it just something to do because you can or it's cool, since odds are overwhelming that you will never have to use it?

2. In that unlikely scenario that you do have to use a gun, the issue is not that you're shot in your weak arm and it's dangling useless (yes, it's possible, but not the more likely scenario), but instead, the fact that the vast majority of armed encounters are very short distances. So, either A. that half second may very well be a factor if the person is 5 yards away, and B. it is very likely that you will need to try and hold off an attacker with your off hand, while drawing and point shooting with your strong hand (the reason this is routinely taught in self defense classes).

Thank you for the compliment. (Not, 'left-handed' I hope!) I'm going to treat your reply with the respect that it deserves. (A lot!) ;)

Your first question specifically alludes to this; doesn’t it:

……… There are an awful lot of, 'C-1 Glockeroo Cowboys' out there who represent a serious potential danger to their: families, friends, all strangers they come into contact with, and themselves as well from unnecessary daily C-1 carry.

Notice that I did NOT say anything about people in the general public not going armed. THAT is, indeed, the Socialist, ‘New World Order’ party line. A politically contrived abrogation of my (previously hard won) Constitutional Second Amendment Rights - An abrogation that I find particularly onerous and most strenuously resent.

‘New World Order’ politicians and the highly organized (but covert) national, ‘news’ media continue to incessantly find more and more diabolical new ways, and more and more meticulously contrived excuses to attack, undermine, and further abrogate one of the most important personal safeguards the American public has - NOT just the right to, ‘bear arms’, but the (God-given) historically inherent, and presumably, ‘unalienable’ right of self-defense! (N-1)

My objection is to, ‘HOW’ a majority of relatively unskilled, and modestly trained civilians choose to go armed: To wit, IN THE MOST DANGEROUS PERSONAL MANNER POSSIBLE! Yes, it is my considered opinion that far too many civilians are walking around all day long in C-1 when THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO NECESSITY WITHIN THEIR DAILY ROUTINES FOR THEM TO DO SO.

Are these people, ‘being cool’? Well, ...... I’ve never seen a flagrant open carrier who wasn’t trying his very best to be as, ‘cool’ as he is moronic; and my thinking is no different about civilians who insist upon routine C-1 semi-auto carry. (I spend a lot of time on public firing lines; and much of what I've seen has, probably, helped to turn my hair white!)

The social guideline is a simple one: ‘Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.’ If a legal gun owner wants to advertise his Second Amendment Rights then, rather than flagrantly sporting a dangerous and deadly weapon on his hip, WEAR A T-SHIRT, CARRY A PLACARD, OR HAND OUT COPIES OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, AND THE BILL-OF-RIGHTS. Don’t run around the local shopping mall scaring, ‘the bejesus’ out of everybody else’s: moms, dads, children, and the elderly - That’s neither socially polite, nor intellectually indicative of the best Judeo-Christian ethics have to offer.

Now, if I’m reading you correct your second question touches on your first, and is offered in regard to my above final comment:

Still, I've been on the Internet long enough to know that there's just no talking to some people; they ain't never been involved in a civilian armed encounter; they're, probably, never going to be involved in any CQB gunfight - anywhere, ever - and, still, they're willing to, 'risk it all' on unnecessary Daily C-1 carry. :freak:

Let me try to put things into a more pertinent (and intended) perspective: I’m an individual who has carried at least one pistol, everywhere I go, 24 hours a day, and for the better part of two decades now. ‘Why’? Simple! I’ve previously been attacked; and, as another member of this board once (rather cleverly) pointed out: ‘The devil sends more trouble some people’s way than others.’ Apparently, and for whatever reasons, I appear to be one of those people. :dunno:

Once I was attacked inside my own home; and, again, twice I’ve been attacked while outside on the property. In the in-home incident I was unarmed; and our Pit Bulldogs came to my rescue. In the other two outside incidents I was heavily armed; and I had to draw a pistol in order to defend myself from impending serious harm.

This should tell you that I, personally, would be among the very last of people to ever proscribe any honest, law abiding individual from going armed. What I’m questioning is THE MANNER in which armed semiautomatic carry is customarily (and habitually) done by the general public. (N-2)

Your questions put me in a position where I have to consider breaking one of my own (albeit recently acquired) rules. After the obscene (albeit continuingly suspicious) gun massacre at Newtown, CT I promised myself that I would never again post any comment on the Internet that teaches someone out in the general public how to be better with, or to more skillfully handle, a combat handgun. (I don’t usually write about rifles. I certainly could; but, I don’t.) You have, however, raised a valid and important objection. This one time I’m going to answer it. You have said:

The fact that the vast majority of armed encounters are very short distances. So, either A. that half second may very well be a factor if the person is 5 yards away, and B. it is very likely that you will need to try and hold off an attacker with your off hand, while drawing and point shooting with your strong hand (the reason this is routinely taught in self defense classes).

I’m going to tell you now that: IF YOU HOLD TO THIS LINE-OF-REASONING - this erroneous personal gunfighting philosophy - then your chances of being seriously wounded, or killed, during your next armed encounter are NOTHING SHORT OF ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT!

Let me ask you this: 'What are you waiting for?' You watch police dash cam videos on television; right! When was the last time you saw a professionally trained police officer hesitate to draw his service pistol THE MOMENT HE REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE IN TROUBLE? In hundreds, if not thousands, of televised, real world, police programs I’ve never seen any such lapse in any police officer's personal security occur. (Just the opposite, actually!)

If you want to stay alive, you do NOT wait for an actor to get within arm’s reach of you. You carefully watch his hands; and, ideally, you make yourself ready-to-act at between 12 and 15 yards’ distance. (Don’t be shy about loudly warning a possible attacker off, either!) Anyone who waits until a half second’s time becomes critical has, in my carefully considered opinion, WAITED TOO LONG! Your most viable self-defense plan should have been, both, formulated and put into action LONG BEFORE, ‘arm’s reach and that last critical half second’ has arrived.

Personally, I don’t give a, ‘tinker’s damn’ about what, ‘they’ are teaching in today’s self-defense classes. While all of these classes are (I am certain.) fun and entertaining; as far as I’m concerned there are only three handgun self-defense classes I’d ever have any interest, whatsoever, in attending. I’d definitely be willing to study with and listen to: Dave Spaulding, D.R. Middlebrooks, and Louis Chiodo; but, that’s about it! As far as I’m concerned everybody else is actually in the entertainment business and is teaching CQB self-defense and pistol combat from, ‘behind the curve’. (N-3)

A more correct restatement of the remark, ‘The fact that the vast majority of armed encounters are very short distances.’ would be, ‘The fact is that the vast majority of armed encounters WHICH THE GOOD GUYS LOSE occur at very short distances.' I’m telling you, here, that if you end up grappling for your life inside an instantaneous CQB knife or pistol ambush, then, more than likely,

IT’S GOING TO BE YOUR OWN FAULT!

What is more, the usual Internet rational for going around all day long with your semiautomatic pistol in C-1, and exposing absolutely everyone - including yourself - to potential harm is most typically given as: In order to be supremely ready for just such a highly unlikely ambush attempt! (An ambush attempt, I might add, for which more than 90% of the, ‘Glockeroos’ out there are - as you, now, know - only very poorly prepared to defend themselves against.) (N-4), (N-5) ;)

I hope I’ve satisfactorily answered your question. :)

NOTES:

(N-1) ‘Unalienable’, Thomas Jefferson’s careful choice-of-words, not mine! I would have used, ‘inalienable’; but, for reasons known only to himself, Jefferson chose to reintroduce this archaic word back into the English language from earlier 16th and 17th century usage.)

(N-2) For the neophytes and mentally confused: A revolver is NOT ever carried in C-1. Only a semiautomatic pistol can be carried that way; and for those who insist there is no difference between carrying a modern revolver with a fully loaded cylinder, and a C-1 Glock, ...... well, these guys have been spending too much time on the Internet. REVOLVERS DO NOT HAVE 74% + PRETENSIONED TRIGGER MECHANISMS!

(N-3) If Jim Cirillo were still alive I would have included him in this list, too. :thumbsup:

(N-4) Don’t tell me about what police officers do, either. Uniformed police officers use, ‘Level Three’ high security holsters - NOT the open-topped, lightly secured holster designs that most of us who go about, ‘in mufti’ all day long prefer to use. An open-topped holster, and a minimally-secured pistol that’s, also, carried in C-1, all, lead up to only one thing: Thee most potentially volatile manner in which a civilian might holster and carry a semiautomatic combat handgun.

(N-5) I use the term, ‘combat handgun’ because that’s actually what it is; and, one more time, at the very least I think C-3 is how members of the general public should routinely carry their semiautomatic pistols! I've been able to survive, twice now, doing it; other competent and knowing gunmen should be able to do it, too.

PhotoFeller
02-06-2013, 15:44
Thank you for the compliment. (Not, 'left-handed' I hope!) I'm going to treat your reply with the respect that it deserves. (A lot!) ;)

You’re first question specifically alludes to this; doesn’t it:



Notice that I did NOT say anything about people in the general public not going armed. THAT is, indeed, the Socialist, ‘New World Order’ party line. A politically contrived abrogation of my (previously hard won) Constitutional Second Amendment Rights - An abrogation that I find particularly onerous and most strenuously resent.

‘New World Order’ politicians and the highly organized (but covert) national, ‘news’ media continue to incessantly find more and more diabolical new ways, and more and more meticulously contrived excuses to attack, undermine, and further abrogate one of the most important personal safeguards the American public has - NOT just the right to, ‘bear arms’, but the (God-given) historically inherent, and presumably, ‘unalienable’ right of self-defense! (N-1)

My objection is to, ‘HOW’ a majority of relatively unskilled, and modestly trained civilians choose to go armed: To wit, IN THE MOST DANGEROUS PERSONAL MANNER POSSIBLE! Yes, it is my considered opinion that far too many civilians are walking around all day long in C-1 when THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO NECESSITY WITHIN THEIR DAILY ROUTINES FOR THEM TO DO SO.

Are these people, ‘being cool’? Well, ...... I’ve never seen a flagrant open carrier who wasn’t trying his very best to be as, ‘cool’ as he is moronic; and my thinking is no different about civilians who insist upon routine C-1 semi-auto carry. (I spend a lot of time on public firing lines; and much of what I've seen has, probably, helped to turn my hair white!)

The social guideline is a simple one: ‘Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.’ If a legal gun owner wants to advertise his Second Amendment Rights then, rather than flagrantly sporting a dangerous and deadly weapon on his hip, WEAR A T-SHIRT, CARRY A PLACARD, OR HAND OUT COPIES OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, AND THE BILL-OF-RIGHTS. Don’t run around the local shopping mall scaring, ‘the bejesus’ out of everybody else’s: moms, dads, children, and the elderly - That’s neither socially polite, nor intellectually indicative of the best Judeo-Christian ethics have to offer.

Now, if I’m reading you correct your second question touches on your first, and is offered in regard to my above final comment:



Let me try to put things into a more pertinent (and intended) perspective: I’m an individual who has carried at least one pistol, everywhere I go, 24 hours a day, and for the better part of two decades now. ‘Why’? Simple! I’ve previously been attacked; and, as another member of this board once (rather cleverly) pointed out: ‘The devil sends more trouble some people’s way than others.’ Apparently, and for whatever reasons, I appear to be one of those people. :dunno:

Once I was attacked inside my own home; and, again, twice I’ve been attacked while outside on the property. In the in-home incident I was unarmed; and our Pit Bulldogs came to my rescue. In the other two outside incidents I was heavily armed; and I had to draw a pistol in order to defend myself from impending serious harm.

This should tell you that I, personally, would be among the very last of people to ever proscribe any honest, law abiding individual from going armed. What I’m questioning is THE MANNER in which armed semiautomatic carry is customarily (and habitually) done by the general public. (N-2)

Your questions put me in a position where I have to consider breaking one of my own (albeit recently acquired) rules. After the obscene (albeit continuingly suspicious) gun massacre at Newtown, CT I promised myself that I would never again post any comment on the Internet that teaches someone out in the general public how to be better with, or to more skillfully handle, a combat handgun. (I don’t usually write about rifles. I certainly could; but, I don’t.) You have, however, raised a valid and important objection. This one time I’m going to answer it. You have said:



I’m going to tell you now that: IF YOU HOLD TO THIS LINE-OF-REASONING - this erroneous personal gunfighting philosophy - then your chances of being seriously wounded, or killed, during your next armed encounter are NOTHING SHORT OF ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT!

Let me ask you this: 'What are you waiting for?' You watch police dash cam videos on television; right! When was the last time you saw a professionally trained police officer hesitate to draw his service pistol THE MOMENT HE REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE IN TROUBLE? In hundreds, if not thousands, of televised, real world, police programs I’ve never seen any such lapse in any police officer's personal security occur. (Just the opposite, actually!)

If you want to stay alive, you do NOT wait for an actor to get within arm’s reach of you. You carefully watch his hands; and, ideally, you make yourself ready-to-act at between 12 and 15 yards’ distance. (Don’t be shy about loudly warning a possible attacker off, either!) Anyone who waits until a half second’s time becomes critical has, in my carefully considered opinion, WAITED TOO LONG! Your most viable self-defense plan should have been, both, formulated and put into action LONG BEFORE, ‘arm’s reach and that last critical half second’ has arrived.

Personally, I don’t give a, ‘tinker’s damn’ about what, ‘they’ are teaching in today’s self-defense classes. While all of these classes are (I am certain.) fun and entertaining; as far as I’m concerned there are only three handgun self-defense classes I’d ever have any interest, whatsoever, in attending. I’d definitely be willing to study with and listen to: Dave Spaulding, D.R. Middlebrooks, and Louis Chiodo; but, that’s about it! As far as I’m concerned everybody else is actually in the entertainment business and is teaching CQB self-defense and pistol combat from, ‘behind the curve’. (N-3)

A more correct restatement of the remark, ‘The fact that the vast majority of armed encounters are very short distances.’ would be, ‘The fact is that the vast majority of armed encounters WHICH THE GOOD GUYS LOSE occur at very short distances.' I’m telling you, here, that if you end up grappling for your life inside an instantaneous CQB knife or pistol ambush, then, more than likely,

IT’S GOING TO BE YOUR OWN FAULT!

What is more, the usual Internet rational for going around all day long with your semiautomatic pistol in C-1, and exposing absolutely everyone - including yourself - to potential harm is most typically given as: In order to be supremely ready for just such a highly unlikely ambush attempt! (An ambush attempt, I might add, for which more than 90% of the, ‘Glockeroos’ out there are - as you, now, know - only very poorly prepared to defend themselves against.) (N-4), (N-5) ;)

I hope I’ve satisfactorily answered your question. :)

NOTES:

(N-1) ‘Unalienable’, Thomas Jefferson’s careful choice-of-words, not mine! I would have used, ‘inalienable’; but, for reasons known only to himself, Jefferson chose to reintroduce this archaic word back into the English language from earlier 16th and 17th century usage.)

(N-2) For the neophytes and mentally confused: A revolver is NOT ever carried in C-1. Only a semiautomatic pistol can be carried that way; and for those who insist there is no difference between carrying a modern revolver with a fully loaded cylinder, and a C-1 Glock, ...... well, these guys have been spending too much time on the Internet. REVOLVERS DO NOT HAVE 74% + PRETENSIONED TRIGGER MECHANISMS!

(N-3) If Jim Cirillo were still alive I would have included him in this list, too. :thumbsup:

(N-4) Don’t tell me about what police officers do, either. Uniformed police officers use, ‘Level Three’ high security holsters - NOT the open-topped, lightly secured holster designs that most of us who go about, ‘in mufti’ all day long prefer to use. An open-topped holster, and a minimally-secured pistol that’s, also, carried in C-1, all, lead up to only one thing: Thee most potentially volatile manner in which a civilian might holster and carry a semiautomatic combat handgun.

(N-5) I use the term, ‘combat handgun’ because that’s actually what it is; and, one more time, at the very least I think C-3 is how members of the general public should routinely carry their semiautomatic pistols! I've been able to survive, twice now, doing it; other competent and knowing gunmen should be able to do it, too.

Thanks for adding much-needed balance to the debate.

We always hear a deafening chorus of voices promoting C1 as the best method, but your comments demonstrate that the C3 technique is sensible, safe and unfairly critisized by people who say its too slow in most SD situations.

I hope your late-in-the-game opinions will receive the attention they deserve.

NMOFT
02-06-2013, 17:27
I agree that it seems intuitive that a pistol in C3 is safer to carry than one in C1, but there’s a fallacy in that line of reasoning. Some of you have cited the fact that even LEOs with their greater level of training and experience have NDs and thus C1 carry must be inherently unsafe. In fact a good friend of mine who happens to be an LEO and an experienced gun handler experienced an ND recently that wreaked his hand.

However, the rest of the story is that the ND happened with an “unloaded” pistol. I think if you averaged the number of hours that cops carry C1 pistols vs. the number of NDs they suffer you would find the ND rate to be surprisingly low. Maybe lower than the rate of NDs suffered by non-LEO C3 carriers. And no, I have no data to back up that statement; it’s purely supposition on my part.

The point is complacency kills. And complacency is what causes NDs, not carry mode. And people that habitually carry such as LEOs will be more vulnerable to complacency than most others.

It seems to me that those with the C3 mindset view pistols as either “safe” to carry or “unsafe” based on whether or not the chamber is loaded. The C3 mindset seems to be “if my carry piece is unloaded I can still make a mistake and not suffer an ND". This breeds complacency and violates one of the four basic rules of gun handling, i.e. “treat all guns as if they are loaded at all times”. You might protest that you do that anyway. Well, if that’s so, then you are just as safe carrying in C1 as in C3.

PhotoFeller
02-06-2013, 18:42
I agree that it seems intuitive that a pistol in C3 is safer to carry than one in C1, but there’s a fallacy in that line of reasoning. Some of you have cited the fact that even LEOs with their greater level of training and experience have NDs and thus C1 carry must be inherently unsafe. In fact a good friend of mine who happens to be an LEO and an experienced gun handler experienced an ND recently that wreaked his hand.

However, the rest of the story is that the ND happened with an “unloaded” pistol. I think if you averaged the number of hours that cops carry C1 pistols vs. the number of NDs they suffer you would find the ND rate to be surprisingly low. Maybe lower than the rate of NDs suffered by non-LEO C3 carriers. And no, I have no data to back up that statement; it’s purely supposition on my part.

The point is complacency kills. And complacency is what causes NDs, not carry mode. And people that habitually carry such as LEOs will be more vulnerable to complacency than most others.

It seems to me that those with the C3 mindset view pistols as either “safe” to carry or “unsafe” based on whether or not the chamber is loaded. The C3 mindset seems to be “if my carry piece is unloaded I can still make a mistake and not suffer an ND". This breeds complacency and violates one of the four basic rules of gun handling, i.e. “treat all guns as if they are loaded at all times”. You might protest that you do that anyway. Well, if that’s so, then you are just as safe carrying in C1 as in C3.

As I understand your position, (1) eliminating complacency makes C1 with a Glock perfectly safe and (2) C3 is less safe than C1 because the former leads to complacency. It follows that a disciplined gun handler who overcomes complacency, as one must do to carry C1 safely, can manage any automatic pistol without fear of committing a ND, including a 1911 in C0.

I'm just trying to understand your logic and its practical application. Applying your logic to a cocked and unlocked 1911 simply amplifies the need for handling perfection with a firearm that is less tolerant of careless mistakes. However, if our handling technique is complacency free, any pistol can be carried in any condition without fear of a ND. Is that a reasonable interpretation?

unit1069
02-06-2013, 20:48
Thanks (to Arc Angel) for adding much-needed balance to the debate.

+1


I agree that it seems intuitive that a pistol in C3 is safer to carry than one in C1, but there’s a fallacy in that line of reasoning. Some of you have cited the fact that even LEOs with their greater level of training and experience have NDs and thus C1 carry must be inherently unsafe. In fact a good friend of mine who happens to be an LEO and an experienced gun handler experienced an ND recently that wreaked his hand.

In my opinion C1 doesn't render a semi-auto inherently unsafe, but it does place the highest priority on awareness and safety.

However, the rest of the story is that the ND happened with an “unloaded” pistol. I think if you averaged the number of hours that cops carry C1 pistols vs. the number of NDs they suffer you would find the ND rate to be surprisingly low. Maybe lower than the rate of NDs suffered by non-LEO C3 carriers. And no, I have no data to back up that statement; it’s purely supposition on my part.

The point is complacency kills. And complacency is what causes NDs, not carry mode. And people that habitually carry such as LEOs will be more vulnerable to complacency than most others.

Certainly true, and complacency happens to the well-trained as it does with civilians, regardless of the condition the carrier believes the gun is in.

It seems to me that those with the C3 mindset view pistols as either “safe” to carry or “unsafe” based on whether or not the chamber is loaded. The C3 mindset seems to be “if my carry piece is unloaded I can still make a mistake and not suffer an ND". This breeds complacency and violates one of the four basic rules of gun handling, i.e. “treat all guns as if they are loaded at all times”. You might protest that you do that anyway. Well, if that’s so, then you are just as safe carrying in C1 as in C3.

The big difference is that trained LEO must always be prepared for a life-threatening confrontation, as part of their sworn duties. Conversely, civilians --- except in the most extreme, dire situations --- are wisely counseled to withdraw (if possible), immediately call 911, and seek safety until the police arrive. But as for the immediate issue, anyone may at an unexpected moment experience a ND; if one's habit is to carry C3 it does not inoculate him/her from that experience but it does by habit place one additional safety check into the process. LEO must carry C1; I choose to normally stay one step behind LEO and one step ahead of Barney Fife.

In the example of LEO dashboard cameras, when was the last time you read, heard, or saw a civilian deliberately walk into an unknown situation where CQB might suddenly occur? I think police have the most difficult job in America, given the criminals and political sharks they have to successfully defend against. Again, there's a great difference between my personal circumstances and those of LEO, and I'm determined not to become a poster child for the Brady Campaign. When I think conditions warrant I will carry C1; when not I'll continue to be a cautious civilian. This question is always an individual, personal decision and one only the individual can decide. There is no right-wrong, in my opinion, and I fully accept the views of those who for their own reasons always carry C1.

Cavalry Doc
02-06-2013, 21:06
Wow, 7 years and there always seems to be one of these threads here......

I prefer one in the chamber, always have, always will. You can all do what you want, at least you have a gun, that's a step in the right direction.

PhotoFeller
02-06-2013, 21:39
Hey, Doc, the question hasn't been definitively settled in 7 years...or maybe as long as Glocks have been available. In your mind, yes. In my mind, yes. But you and I have different opinions. Maybe there is no 'right' answer.

splitfinger09
02-06-2013, 21:59
This was posted anonymously by someone claiming to be USMC.

"I am an Iraq and Afghan Veteran with the USMC. We didnt even carry our weapons at condition 1 the entire time while in country. We only went condition 1 when we went outside the wire. SO why if I was condition 3 while in Iraq would I need to be condition 1 while carrying around town? A weapon does nothing if you dont have situational awarness. Please people carry condition 3 and if you sense danger go condition 1. Because as he said NDs are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more common than a shootout at Starbucks!!!!!"

VinnieG
02-06-2013, 22:31
This was posted anonymously by someone claiming to be USMC.

"I am an Iraq and Afghan Veteran with the USMC. We didnt even carry our weapons at condition 1 the entire time while in country. We only went condition 1 when we went outside the wire. SO why if I was condition 3 while in Iraq would I need to be condition 1 while carrying around town? A weapon does nothing if you dont have situational awarness. Please people carry condition 3 and if you sense danger go condition 1. Because as he said NDs are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more common than a shootout at Starbucks!!!!!"

I have spoken my opinion already and am in no way trying to argue but this quote is a lil off in my opinion.
He said that they only carried c1 when outside the wire. During civilian carry in this country there is no inside or outside the wire.
I carry c1 but I'm an Leo and am used to it (by no means am I better than anyone) but it is what I am used to and like.
I am always aware of my surroundings but there are some places that I feel more comfortable than others to let my guard down a lil.
But in my opinion that I gathered from having a bunch of buddies in different branches of the military, from seals, special forces and regular military. When behind the wire for the most part you don't have to worry about an armed confrontation inside the wire (only rockets,mortars and sniper fire).
I guess what I'm tryin to get across while a lil deep in the captain Morgan is that it's comparing apples to oranges

mingaa
02-06-2013, 22:39
One in the chamber - proper holster. Anything else is a huge risk. Like a gun in the lockbox in the vehicle - enter vehicle, retrieve weapon WITH one in the pipe. Period. Having a gun nearby or almost ready is a setup for disaster.

NMOFT
02-06-2013, 22:40
As I understand your position, (1) eliminating complacency makes C1 with a Glock perfectly safe and (2) C3 is less safe than C1 because the former leads to complacency. It follows that a disciplined gun handler who overcomes complacency, as one must do to carry C1 safely, can manage any automatic pistol without fear of committing a ND, including a 1911 in C0.

I'm just trying to understand your logic and its practical application. Applying your logic to a cocked and unlocked 1911 simply amplifies the need for handling perfection with a firearm that is less tolerant of careless mistakes. However, if our handling technique is complacency free, any pistol can be carried in any condition without fear of a ND. Is that a reasonable interpretation?

Do you treat your "unloaded" Glock any differently than you would a chamber loaded 1911?