Why such a big price difference.. GLOCK/Sig etc.. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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AlaJack
01-28-2013, 13:07
Why is there such a big price difference between the Austrian GLOCK’s and it’s neighbors to the North the Sigs and HK’s? I don’t believe for a second Sigs and HK’s are “better” guns but I beg the question, why? On a model-to-model comparable basis, GLOCKs, Sigs, and HKs all seem relatively similar. They’re mostly made from the same materials, they’re all tough and durable, they’re all just as accurate as the other. The only noticeable difference is the method of operation – Striker vs hammer fired. Is this where the extra design costs are buried? By now though you’d think it’s an exact science. So why the disparity in prices? I could understand $100, or even $150 or so, but an average USP or new Sig is $300-400 more than a comparable GLOCK. Why?

SmithietheFox
01-28-2013, 13:19
Anything HK is always expensive simply because it has "HK" on it

AlaJack
01-28-2013, 13:29
That was my first thought – that it was just merely the brand which made the price so much higher. But then I thought about the automobile industry. I own a late model e46 BMW, and it sells for a premium over other autos because it is in fact (to me) a better car. It rides better, handles better, feels better, has better drivetrains etc.. Since I’ve never actually fired an HK or Sig comparable to a GLOCK, would this be the reason they’re more expensive? Because they’re just more balanced, tuned, and smooth? If so, I can understand the price delta.

sciolist
01-28-2013, 13:54
I don't know if there's any consistency to the mark-up across brands, but there isn't much going on inside the Glock. It is a very spartan design, and very cheaply made.

Seems like Glock's main objective is to crank out disposable guns for the police market. Given that, they've done a spectacular job in terms of performance.

Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

For what it is, the Glock is a great product.

moonwilson
01-28-2013, 14:12
I can't speak for H&K, but there is a lot more machining and work that goes into say a SIG P226 than goes into making a Glock. The closest thing SIG offers to a Glock would be the SP2022, which cost around $400. I have one, and it's great. Totally comparable to a Glock in terms of fit/ finish/ materials etc. It's actually a bit more accurate than what I see out of my Glocks. It has the traditional SIG DA/SA hammer arrangement. I have no idea why H&Ks are so expensive. Probably because they are so uber-l33t and hardcore. ;)

danysw
01-28-2013, 14:17
I have both Sig and Glock (not HK) and even though Glocks are the most reliable guns in the world, finishing, quality, warranty and accuracy are in Sig's favor.

Bren
01-28-2013, 14:22
Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

For what it is, the Glock is a great product.

Are you new to Glocks? Durability is one of the things they are best known for. I wasn't aware that there were even people who thought they didn't have "lifetime durability" or were "disposable" but I can tell you, you don't know much about Glocks or their history.

Hand Grenade
01-28-2013, 14:31
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

moonwilson
01-28-2013, 14:39
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

:whistling: Um. Not sure what you're on about, if you're trolling here or what. SIG makes very fine guns indeed. I own 5 of them, and have never been even slightly displeased with any of them. I can't recall a single malfunction of any kind with any of my SIGs. They're extremely reliable and accurate in my experience. And not one of them has a spot of rust anywhere. I'd trust my life with any one of them. Glocks are good too, I have 3 of those and like them a lot too. I've always wanted an H&K, but haven't found the right one at the right price yet. By all accounts H&K makes superb weapons, though they do tend to be a bit bulky and expensive.

danysw
01-28-2013, 14:42
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water. .

Are you sure you don't have a lemon? Are you sure you are talking about the same Sig Sauer that is used by all this agencies?

U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security (largest U.S. non-military contract)
U.S. Navy SEALs
U.S.Navy SWCC
U.S. Federal Air Marshals
U.S. Secret Service
U.S. Coast Guard
U.S. ATF
Federal Protective Service
Colombia: CNP 12,000 pistols; Army 800 precision rifles
France: over 250.000 SIG SAUER pistols in use by Police Nationale, Gendarmerie and Douanes
Chile PICH
British SAS
Hong Kong Police – new P250
Canadian Military (P226)
U.S. Department of State Diplomatic Security
U.S. Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS)
U.S. Army 902d Military Intelligence Group (M11)
U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Divison (CID)
USAF OSI (M11)
U.S. NAVY Aviators (M11)
8 German SEK units
Norwegian Special Forces
German Customs and Border Control
GIGN French Special Force
1/3 of all U.S. State & Local LE (Lol the other 2/3 have Glocks)

samuse
01-28-2013, 14:42
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

:shocked:


:rofl:

Leigh
01-28-2013, 14:48
[QUOTE=sciolist;19922097][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

Uh, no. Not even close.

Glocks have fired many more rounds out of ONE handgun than many other combined.

Ever hear of Chuck Taylor who put hundreds of thousands of rounds through one?

No offense, but Google is your friend.

Hand Grenade
01-28-2013, 14:49
:whistling: Um. Not sure what you're on about, if you're trolling here or what. SIG makes very fine guns indeed. I own 5 of them, and have never been even slightly displeased with any of them. I can't recall a single malfunction of any kind with any of my SIGs. They're extremely reliable and accurate in my experience. And not one of them has a spot of rust anywhere. I'd trust my life with any one of them. Glocks are good too, I have 3 of those and like them a lot too. I've always wanted an H&K, but haven't found the right one at the right price yet. By all accounts H&K makes superb weapons, though they do tend to be a bit bulky and expensive.

You keep shooting your overpriced and mile high bore axis Sig. Make sure your well trained to clear pistol jams. I'll keep shooting perfection out of my Glock.

Leigh
01-28-2013, 14:50
Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco.

That pretty much sums up your real-world knowledge right there.:upeyes:

2-8 Marine
01-28-2013, 14:52
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.


Thank you for your input Gaston. :tongueout:

flw
01-28-2013, 14:52
Getting back to the original post, I don't know of any real practical differences between Glock/Sig/H&K (they all make good guns) other than price and like cars- Style....

BTW- all thing made mechanical are subject to lemons now and then. Also there all designed and made by humans.

tcallre
01-28-2013, 15:16
In the eighties HK stuck really close to the actual dollar/German Mark ratio. Around 1984 when the dollar was strong a HK91 went for around 550.00 while a Colt AR 15 was around 600.00. By 1988 this had changed with the Colt's staying around the 600.00-650.00 mark while the 91's were closer to 900.00 It seemed Sig Sauer would deviate and attempt to keep their German guns close to the original price what ever the dollar's strength to the DM was. I really think the main thing has been the Glock design being relatively cheap to produce and since Glock's tend to evolve very slowly there are little RD funds to recover. By the way while I think the Sig bashing is ridicules I sure hated finding rust on my grip screws every so often the five years I carried one on the job. For the premium price I always felt Sig should of put a more durable standard finish on their pistols.

Steel Head
01-28-2013, 15:48
Thank you for your input Gaston. :tongueout:

:rofl:

John Biltz
01-28-2013, 15:52
Glocks are inexpensive because they cost less to make. Glock's have fewer parts and their manufacturing process is very efficient and cost effective. The Glock revolution was as much about the way they make guns as the guns themselves.

AlaJack
01-28-2013, 15:58
Didn't mean to start a flame war... Oh well.

I appreciate Sig's extra processing and machining. I suppose that accounts for their being more pricey, however to me it just seems like they'd have perfected the process down to an art form by now and the start-up/D&D costs initially incurred to make such a product would have been over and done long ago. Maybe the materials themselves would be better and thus more costly? Forgive me, I know nothing about machining work other than what I've learned on wikipedia or the history channel.. Perhaps it really IS that much more expensive/time consuming to machine Sig parts, slides, etc than that of a Glock...

flw
01-28-2013, 16:09
Glocks are inexpensive because they cost less to make. Glock's have fewer parts and their manufacturing process is very efficient and cost effective. The Glock revolution was as much about the way they make guns as the guns themselves.

Its beauty is in its simplicity. Not in its complexity. i.e. the other 2 mentioned.....

dhoomonyou
01-28-2013, 16:33
I don't know if there's any consistency to the mark-up across brands, but there isn't much going on inside the Glock. It is a very spartan design, and very cheaply made.

Seems like Glock's main objective is to crank out disposable guns for the police market. Given that, they've done a spectacular job in terms of performance.

Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

For what it is, the Glock is a great product.

DISPOSABLE ?
20-30k LIFE?

Respectfully i disagree

I have close to 60k rounds out of a 26.
Replaced recoil spring about every 15k, trigger spring once.

wacopolumbo
01-28-2013, 16:43
I am a Sig, Glock and Beretta armorer (haven't been to the HK course yet). Also, I have carried just about every make and model of short and long gun either for personal CCW or into harms way (Afghanistan and Iraq and some other places). For long guns, I loved the Sig rifle (552) we carried on a protective detail. I am NOT an M4 fan and would carry and "acquired" AK whenever possible. Also, the HK MP5 is tough to beat.

Now, back to the handguns...

HK pistols are well engineered, wonderful pieces of equipment. The P7 was expensive to manufacture with the squeeze cocker and all the parts. I had several over the years. When the USP first came out in the mid 90s, you could get them at reasonable prices. In the late 90s when the Euro was established and immediately was worth more than the dollar, importing HKs became more expensive almost over night. If you add in that HK would rather just deal with military and LE than civilians, there was no desire to drive prices down. I lived in Germany and went to the HK headquarters to be qualified on the MP7 and was told by the HK reps that they wished they wouldn't have to deal with civilians.

Ahhhh, Sig...my duty weapon...in the 90s, you could go to a gun show and buy a NIB Glock for $400, a NIB USP for $500 and a NIB Sig for $500. Now (before craziness) you could go to a gunshow and buy a NIB Glock for $500, a NIB USP for $900 and a NIB Sig for $900. Crazy and frustrating. I know guys at Sig. They claimed the same Euro transition price hike in 2000. Then in 2005 when the Euro soared, Sig raised prices again, claiming the import cost of guns and parts was the reason. Now that Sig is making the guns completely in Exiter, they haven't lowered any prices. Not only that, they are using MIM parts now. In my opinion, the quality of Sig has gone through the floor in the last 10 years. Ever since the Kimber guy was hired to run SIGARMS (before Sig Sauer took over SIGARMS again), Sig seems to push out more crap than ever. Scorpions, Extremes, rainbow finish, diamond plate finish and the list goes on...

Somehow in all of this, Glock has kept their pricing remarkably stable. They have the manufacturing process down and keep costs low by not having 50 variations of each pistol (ala Sig). Not only are the Glock pistols less expensive and haven't inflated in price over the years like the others, but their accessories and mags are more affordable too.

Now Beretta. I am a big fan of them too. They have also kept their prices stable and their accessories aren't as bad as HK and Sig.

Gotta appreciate Glock. They aren't perfect, but no company is.

Just my .02

CynicX
01-28-2013, 16:45
I feel like some people here are comparing a Glock to a top of the line SA/DA alloy/steel frame 226....

Compare to Sig SP2022 to a Glock and you'll be surprised.

Nutnfancy holds Sig's in the highest regards including the 2022 and he loves Glocks.

http://youtu.be/Q0es37RojNA

dhoomonyou
01-28-2013, 16:50
I don't know if there's any consistency to the mark-up across brands, but there isn't much going on inside the Glock. It is a very spartan design, and very cheaply made.

Seems like Glock's main objective is to crank out disposable guns for the police market. Given that, they've done a spectacular job in terms of performance.

Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

For what it is, the Glock is a great product.

DISPOSABLE ?
20-30k LIFE?

Respectfully i disagree

I have close to 60k rounds out of a 26.
Replaced recoil spring about every 15k, trigger spring once.

GruGrux515
01-28-2013, 17:09
Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name

iLift45's
01-28-2013, 18:18
Love my Glocks especially my new Gen 4 model 21! Just got the the Hk45 and Hk45C. Everything about theses pistols are beautiful. The engineering, the fit and finish, and the grip is about as perfect as you can get for a polymer pistol. It's the softest shooting 45 I've ever shot!! Hk's are really that good.

bac1023
01-28-2013, 18:29
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
If you don't like Sig, fine.

Don't act like an immature horse's ass and spout a bunch of nonsense.

Sigs are among the most reliable pistols ever built.

Bruce M
01-28-2013, 18:39
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

Are you sure you don't have a lemon? ...
...
)
Do you really think he actually has a Sig or is he just trying to re-convince himself he really did make a good purchase in the Glock.
Thank you for your input Gaston. :tongueout::rofl::rofl:

If you don't like Sig, fine.

Don't act like an immature horse's ass and spout a bunch of nonsense.

Sigs are among the most reliable pistols ever built.
Again my guess is that he is trying to convince himself he chose the right gun.


I would like to add in addition to some notable differences in the machine work needed for a Sig or an H&K as opposed to the Glock, we also need to remember that Sig and H&K manufacture a fairly wide variety of different handguns and long guns.

As was suggested in another post a decade or two ago the three were more closely priced but two have gone up much more than the third.

Maybe when Glock finally gets around to making the Glock carbine, the Glock 1911, and the small single stack 9mm Glock, Glock prices will rise across the board.

billorights
01-28-2013, 20:49
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

Don't know what you are reading or who you are listening to. Sigs are the no. 1 best performing handgun I have ever had. There are not many handguns made in the last 100 or so years that I have not had experience handeling and shooting. You may be a poser or a joker, but you sure don't know Sigs. Bryco?:rofl:

rdunk
01-28-2013, 22:43
I have ome of each - a Glock 32c, and a Sig P229. In my opinion, they are both good semi-autos, with the Glock being a "Ford", vs the Sig being a "Cadillac", in overall design. They both shoot every-time I pull the trigger, but the Sig has design features, such as all metal frame and stainless slide, that I consider much better.

Both of these pistols are "compacts", and for me, a big simple positive that favors the Glock for CC (only reason I bought Glock), is that its weight is about 1/2 pound less than the p229. They each will shoot the same three calibers (with proper barrels), so, I just have two really good pistols for my use and for my enjoyment.

Marshall Dillon
01-28-2013, 22:46
I am a Sig, Glock and Beretta armorer (haven't been to the HK course yet). Also, I have carried just about every make and model of short and long gun either for personal CCW or into harms way (Afghanistan and Iraq and some other places). For long guns, I loved the Sig rifle (552) we carried on a protective detail. I am NOT an M4 fan and would carry and "acquired" AK whenever possible. Also, the HK MP5 is tough to beat.

Now, back to the handguns...

HK pistols are well engineered, wonderful pieces of equipment. The P7 was expensive to manufacture with the squeeze cocker and all the parts. I had several over the years. When the USP first came out in the mid 90s, you could get them at reasonable prices. In the late 90s when the Euro was established and immediately was worth more than the dollar, importing HKs became more expensive almost over night. If you add in that HK would rather just deal with military and LE than civilians, there was no desire to drive prices down. I lived in Germany and went to the HK headquarters to be qualified on the MP7 and was told by the HK reps that they wished they wouldn't have to deal with civilians.

Ahhhh, Sig...my duty weapon...in the 90s, you could go to a gun show and buy a NIB Glock for $400, a NIB USP for $500 and a NIB Sig for $500. Now (before craziness) you could go to a gunshow and buy a NIB Glock for $500, a NIB USP for $900 and a NIB Sig for $900. Crazy and frustrating. I know guys at Sig. They claimed the same Euro transition price hike in 2000. Then in 2005 when the Euro soared, Sig raised prices again, claiming the import cost of guns and parts was the reason. Now that Sig is making the guns completely in Exiter, they haven't lowered any prices. Not only that, they are using MIM parts now. In my opinion, the quality of Sig has gone through the floor in the last 10 years. Ever since the Kimber guy was hired to run SIGARMS (before Sig Sauer took over SIGARMS again), Sig seems to push out more crap than ever. Scorpions, Extremes, rainbow finish, diamond plate finish and the list goes on...

Somehow in all of this, Glock has kept their pricing remarkably stable. They have the manufacturing process down and keep costs low by not having 50 variations of each pistol (ala Sig). Not only are the Glock pistols less expensive and haven't inflated in price over the years like the others, but their accessories and mags are more affordable too.

Now Beretta. I am a big fan of them too. They have also kept their prices stable and their accessories aren't as bad as HK and Sig.

Gotta appreciate Glock. They aren't perfect, but no company is.

Just my .02

Great post, Waco. Thanks.

kodiakpb
01-28-2013, 22:50
I have a P226 it's a quality weapon. I carry a Glock due to weight and my preference for striker fired vs DA/SA.

NEOH212
01-28-2013, 23:45
I don’t believe for a second Sigs and HK’s are “better” guns.

Then you have obviously never owned a Sig or HK. :faint:



I used to be like you until I purchased my first HK and my first Sig.

Now I only own two Glocks and my safe is full of HK's and Sigs.

Why?

Well I'll let you figure that one out.... :supergrin:

Tophatter
01-29-2013, 03:16
Is a Heckler & Koch a "better" gun than a Glock? It depends entirely on what you mean. HKs are certainly just as durable and reliable, and will tend to be more accurate out of the box, and there's really no question that pretty much no major manufacturer in the industry is up to HK's quality control standards. HK controls their entire production chain, they don't outsource small parts...heck, they even make their own steel.

Does that make it a "better" gun? Not for most people. Most people won't ever shoot an HK to its limits, and of the people who would, some have chosen HK (NSW), some have chosen Glock (USASOC).

What does it matter?

LampShadeActual
01-29-2013, 05:21
Mid-1980's to retirement to present, I've spent 25 years plus carrying and shooting semi-auto pistols. 9mm and10mm and 45acp S&W, 9mm and 45acp SIG, 40S&W and 9mm and 45acp Glock. Used 1911s and Browning HP off and on over the time and Walther 9mms.

Nothing in that group compares to the durability and long life of a Glock.

The SIGs were withdrawn from service because of frame cracks at 5000 rounds. Sounds like a Beretta story. The Smiths would break a trigger rebound spring just about the time you thought one might last. (the little two prong flat bent copper colored spring). The Smith 45 unlocked too fast while the pressure was off and ripped rims off the cases. CLEAN it would not extract the first few shots fired. You had to go to training, clean it, and then shoot a couple magazines or it would not work. The P220 would only work with one magic overall length of the rounds. Longer or shorter, they would not feed. Think hardball length in a defensive pistol.

As to prices, Glock sells a lot of guns on a small profit margin. The others sell fewer guns and try to get a bigger profit per unit. It is whatever your business model wants.

As to useage, police and military units using SIG, HK, and Beretta did not dent Glocks 80% share of the police market. The only thing that cut it to 65-70% is the Springfield and S&W clones nearly given to PDs free.

bac1023
01-29-2013, 05:34
I'm not real big on the new Sigs built in the States, but they are quality pistols.

As far as HK is concerned, I feel overall quality and fit and finish certainly exceeds Glock by a good amount.

bac1023
01-29-2013, 05:36
You keep shooting your overpriced and mile high bore axis Sig. Make sure your well trained to clear pistol jams. I'll keep shooting perfection out of my Glock.

Do us all a big favor and get lost...

:upeyes:

HexHead
01-29-2013, 05:44
I think a large part of the reason is parts count. The Glock has something like 34 parts, while Sigs and HKs have around 77-79. More material, machining and fitting.

2-8 Marine
01-29-2013, 07:49
Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name

Your analogy is about as classless and wrong as your conclusion. There IS a distinct difference in quality between Glock, HK and Sig; The latter two being made to higher standards. I own, have owned and handled many HK, Sigs and Glocks in my time (66 yrs) and anyone who's experienced them knows that difference. Glock is an excellent gun for what it is. But there is no denying that HK and Sig are better made. People don't buy HK, Sig or even Glock simply for the name, but because of the atributes the name implies, quality, reliability, endurence, dependability, etc they all have their strong points. You may know something about underwear, but Sig and HK's not so much.

series1811
01-29-2013, 07:54
Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

Did you know that lots of DEA agents are carrying issued P229's at this very moment?

bac1023
01-29-2013, 07:57
Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name

There's lot more than just a difference in name between those guns.

I suggest you educate yourself a bit before posting.

F106 Fan
01-29-2013, 08:56
The P220 would only work with one magic overall length of the rounds. Longer or shorter, they would not feed. Think hardball length in a defensive pistol.


Hm... My P220 shoots my reloaded 230 gr LRN, 230 gr FMJ and 200 gr LSWC without fail. It will also shoot what little factory ammo I buy.

I made no changes whatsoever to my reloading practice to accomodate the Sig. The OAL is 1.250" and it has been for more than 30 years.

Yes, it will even chamber the LSWC without fail.

And my Sig 1911 is superb! It is every bit the equal of my Colt Gold Cup in terms of accuracy and it too will eat everything I feed it.



As to prices, Glock sells a lot of guns on a small profit margin. The others sell fewer guns and try to get a bigger profit per unit. It is whatever your business model wants.

As to useage, police and military units using SIG, HK, and Beretta did not dent Glocks 80% share of the police market. The only thing that cut it to 65-70% is the Springfield and S&W clones nearly given to PDs free.

Let's not attribute to quality what can be explained as administrations buying the cheapest possible product.

It's not all that expensive to manufacture a gun by squirting plastic into a mold.

Richard

samuse
01-29-2013, 09:18
I own Glocks and Sigs, have spent some time with H&Ks.

I don't think there's a lick of difference in quality between any of 'em.

The H&Ks and Sigs simply require more resources to build, that's why they cost more.

They all serve different perceived needs and they do it well.

Glock vs Sig vs H&K:

"Oooooh.. This one's shiny and it's made out of metal... It's high quality."

"Nu-uh. This one is plastic and tennifer, it never rusts and will shoot elventy-zillion rounds in an Afghan sandstorm with no malfunctions."

"But you see... You lack the refinement of ambidextrous slide release levers that rattle, a gritty fourteen pound trigger and $50 magazines. It even has a miniature windshield wiper to keep the headlights clean in the rain Ron..."

High Altitude
01-29-2013, 09:37
Glocks are still priced cheap compared to Sig and HK because Glock is essentially building a 25 year old pistol where all the R&D and other upfront costs etc... where paid for a long time ago. Now add in the fact a Glock is the absolute cheapest/simplest design out there and no one can manufacture a quality duty pistol as cheap as Glock can.

Stvan1
01-29-2013, 10:03
I shoot and carry a glock 22, Sig P-220, 226, and 229, SA XD-S and CZs, and a few others. I recently got a Steyr M40-a1 which is made in Austria like the Glock. I think the Steyr is more comfy and more accurate than my Glock for me anyway. Also comparing apples and oranges with the Glocks and Sigs and HKs. I would add that in my opinion the new Sigs are not junk like some here have stated. Mine are all Elite Dark models and I think they are very well made. But then I don't work on them like the guy that was at all the armory schools. Just my opinions and experiences.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
Sig 226 tacops
SA 1911 Loaded
SA XDm 3.8 9mm
SA XDs 45
Too many more

ca survivor
01-29-2013, 10:03
Please, don't feed the trolls :rofl:

kingrex
01-29-2013, 10:04
I own generation 3 G21 and G33. I recently purchased an HK45C after having extensively researching compact handguns. I paid $1,100.00 for it. A lot of money for a polymer pistol. When I hold the G21 and the HK there is a notable difference in these two weapons. The difference is in the details. I have'nt fired the HK so I have no opinion in that regard. I have fired my Glocks and have complete faith in their function. Having devoted that much money to a handgun may result in it being a range gun and safe queen. The Glocks will be my primary weapon for home protection and ccw. Glocks just instill that kind of confidence for me. After having purchased the HK I more clearly understand the devotion people have in their Glocks.

SmithietheFox
01-29-2013, 14:03
Don't get Sigarms confused with Sig-Sauer (owned by same company) as I believe the Sigarms pistols are mfg'd up in Exeter, NH and not in Germany like the Sig-Sauers. Personally I've never fired a Sigarms pistol that I cared for (SigPro, P-250 etc) but on the other hand the 226 mfg'd by Sig-Sauer is one of the finest handguns in the world IMO. Pricier than the Sigarms stuff but superior in quality. Like taking one of the SIG 551 "Classics" mfg'd by Sigarms and comparing them to one of the pre-ban SIG 550s or 551s made at SIG in Neuhausen back in the '80s...just aren't the same rifles.

On the HK note- I've always felt that nearly anything made by HK was vpgreatly overpriced. That said I think the USP is a fine pistol, a little blocky in the slide and awkward feeling to me but worked just fine- however I sold mine to fund another Glock.

Scrappy
01-29-2013, 14:11
Sigs cost more because of the fancy braided recoil spring!

moonwilson
01-29-2013, 14:21
My only problem with H&K besides the price is that the trigger on every polymer-framed one I've handled has suuuuucked. Super heavy, creepy and gritty. That said, I still want one. I'm not sure I $1,100 want one though. SIGs tend to have great triggers, and I find the DA/SA transition to be a total non-issue. Glock triggers are fine once they get broken in a bit.

H&Ks have a great "feel" to them. When you hold an H&K, you know you're holding a serious weapon. They're rock solid. The Gen4 Glocks have the same sort of feel to me, where the earlier generations did not. Earlier Glocks feel "looser". Maybe it's just because my older generation Glocks have been shot more and have loosened up a bit. It's hard to remember what a gun you've used for a while felt like when it was new. I'd much rather have 2 Glocks than 1 H&K for my money.

Pier23
01-29-2013, 14:58
I have nothing to add save my personal experience with Glocks, Sigs, XDs, Walthers, Berettas and a Seecamp.

Glocks are wonderful tools.

But I ENJOY the Sigs, XD, Walthers and Berettas. The Seecamp...well, it fills a niche....<ggggg>

michael_b
01-29-2013, 15:07
Your analogy is about as classless and wrong as your conclusion. There IS a distinct difference in quality between Glock, HK and Sig; The latter two being made to higher standards. I own, have owned and handled many HK, Sigs and Glocks in my time (66 yrs) and anyone who's experienced them knows that difference. Glock is an excellent gun for what it is. But there is no denying that HK and Sig are better made. People don't buy HK, Sig or even Glock simply for the name, but because of the atributes the name implies, quality, reliability, endurence, dependability, etc they all have their strong points. You may know something about underwear, but Sig and HK's not so much.

Don't mention thread counts to him...


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vtducrider
01-30-2013, 12:22
I owned 3 Sig pistols in the early 90's. Great guns... The 226 was my main range gun, and had close to 50K rounds through it without any problem. I decided to get out of guns when my first son was born. Not because I was afraid having guns and a young child in the same household, but because it made my wife extremely uncomfortable... In retrospect, I should have stored them at a friend's place instead of selling off everything.... Fast forward to present day, the only Sig I have is a railed 229 made in Exeter. I would trade that for my old one (non-railed) in a heart beat.

I don't know exactly how many HK's I have, but a bunch. I like their designs, the quality, and the exclusivity - an average street thug doesn't usually carry an HK, putting it badly.

Glocks are functional, reliable, ugly as h***. They have crossed the threshold of being well made guns. Anything beyond a Glock is diminishing returns on your money. But hey, I don't mind spending the money, like a lot of folks here.

Lastly, even though Sigs and HK's are better made than Glocks in my opinion, there is actually a lot of science that goes into determining the price points of guns, or any product. The cost of producing them is almost irrelevant.

sciolist
01-30-2013, 13:24
Are you new to Glocks? Durability is one of the things they are best known for. I wasn't aware that there were even people who thought they didn't have "lifetime durability" or were "disposable" but I can tell you, you don't know much about Glocks or their history.


My Production 34 lasted 2 years before the slide and frame failed. To me, that's a disposable gun. To a cop who shoots 30K rounds in his entire career maybe it's a lifetime gun.

I love the 34. Glock replaced my slide and frame. I'm not complaining - just didn't realize the durability limitations at the outset. The 34 works better for me than the CZ, XDm or M&P.

My basic point is that I personally would prefer a more durable gun at a higher cost. It took me almost a year to get the first 34 dialed in. Granted, I know where the likely problem areas are now, so that process is much easier.

I don’t expect a Glock to stand up to a decade of 30K round years, but half of that would be nice.

proguide
01-30-2013, 13:49
I currently own examples of all 3. Carried the Hk on duty before we switched to Glock. As far as the differences between glock and Hk they are very similar. The Hk was a little beefier (less frame flex) different RSA and hammer fired. Does that make Hk better and demand the price? Not in the least bit. We dumped the platform and went to Glock for a reason. Price was probably the biggest factor as glock also supplied Safariland holsters, mag pouches and Surefire tac lights as part of the deal. I can honestly tell you though that qual scores went up across the board and we don't have nearly the problems had with Hk. Sig on the other hand is a different beast. A lot of work goes into production such as machine work and hand finishing not needed on the other 2. They make a fine firearm worth a few extra bucks.

grecco
01-30-2013, 15:27
Well you need to shoot them side by side,
I did, now most of my glocks are gone,
Dont get me wrong, i like my glocks,
But the hk and sig are better engineered and accurate.

Hk excels at everything they make
So you pay for quality,
If glock is so perfect, why is there an entire industry dedicated
To making them more perfect?

Montblanc
01-30-2013, 15:37
How are sigs and HKs perfect?

I have sold my sig and hks. I do not regret it one bit.

the sig never would run right without tons of lube, sent back three times and got tired of the CS

the HK ran right out of the box and shot very nice but the glock was not much different other than then SA/DA.

the glock is also much lighter and easier to tote around vs the block slides of the usp and the sig 226 was extremely bulky, I cannot believe people even carry these as duty weapons.

LampShadeActual
01-30-2013, 15:38
SIG quality? Buy a Mosquito .22LR and then tell me about it. I stupidly bought one. After two trips to the factory, I do not recall it every going one full magazine without failing to fire, feed, or eject at least once.

Glock quality? The output of two major companies is devoted to making their own copies of the Glock. Somehow that indicates they are sufficiently perfect to be copied to death. The combination of Glock, S&W's M&P line, and Springfield's Croatia made striker fired copies is probably 98% of the full size pistols being sold today of the M26/Shield/XDs size and bigger.

2-8 Marine
01-30-2013, 15:59
Don't mention thread counts to him...


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:rofl: I got that . . .very good.

bunk22
01-30-2013, 17:35
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

LOL some funny stuff here :rofl: Have to love the internet!!!

grecco
01-30-2013, 17:40
How are sigs and HKs perfect?

.



Neither advertise "perfection" like glock does.
Now i do not feel under armed with either.
But imho,
the HK and Sigs are built to a higher standard, and better materials, fit/finish and quality.

Larry V
01-30-2013, 17:50
I love my Glocks , dont get me wrong but until you shoot and HK 45 for example ,you can then understand why HK cost what they do.

danysw
01-30-2013, 18:00
Same thing here, I love my Glock and carry it every day, for sure is the most reliable gun in the world but when I shoot my Sig P226 Tacops is when know why the price difference.

Montblanc
01-30-2013, 18:01
I have shot an HK45 but its nothing special.

Variety is the spice of life to each his own.

I enjoy Glocks due to the initial price, magazine price and reliability.
they are also lightweight and I can do a full detail strip with ease.

bac1023
01-30-2013, 18:12
SIG quality? Buy a Mosquito .22LR and then tell me about it. I stupidly bought one. After two trips to the factory, I do not recall it every going one full magazine without failing to fire, feed, or eject at least once.

Glock quality? The output of two major companies is devoted to making their own copies of the Glock. Somehow that indicates they are sufficiently perfect to be copied to death. The combination of Glock, S&W's M&P line, and Springfield's Croatia made striker fired copies is probably 98% of the full size pistols being sold today of the M26/Shield/XDs size and bigger.


Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?

You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree? :dunno:

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be.

A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.

Do you have any other good info for me? :rofl:

bac1023
01-30-2013, 18:15
Neither advertise "perfection" like glock does.
Now i do not feel under armed with either.
But imho,
the HK and Sigs are built to a higher standard, and better materials, fit/finish and quality.

You've got that right :cool:

omega48038
01-30-2013, 19:13
When it comes to doing what they do, propelling a slug at a target, they're pretty close. The difference is in the companies philosophy and culture. Imagine a design staff meeting:

Case 1), Glock:
Design Engineer: We've finished redesigning the frame rails. They work ok, but the plating seems to flake off.
Chief Engineer: Well they work ok, good enough. Ship it.

Case 2). HK:
Design Engineer: We've finished redesigning the frame rails. They work ok, but the plating seems to flake off.
Chief Engineer: While it may be good enough, it's not correct. Back to work.

I can see that meeting happening regarding other issues too, such as warped dust covers (and the warped accessory rail that goes with them), etc. The kind of stuff that gets rationalized by fans as not affecting function would never be tolerated by SIG or HK, and people are willing to pay a premium for correctness over good enough.

Meanie5470
01-30-2013, 20:36
Bac the s&w sigma was so similar to glock that glock sued them and won lol. People can say what they want about fit and finish our whatever. Glock is a workhorse and I'd put its reliability up against any hk or sig or there. It's like comparing the fit and finish of an f150 and a Mercedes. Obviously the Mercedes is nicer and maybe tighter built... It's still not surviving the abuse the Ford would.

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LampShadeActual
01-30-2013, 20:44
bac1023 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37645)
Senior Member Posts: 74,485
Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?
You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree? :dunno:

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be. A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.
Do you have any other good info for me? :rofl:


Naw, really not. Unless its raining or really cold, I don't have time for 75,000 posts. Get a life.

But wait, it said SIG on the Mosquito, came in a SIG box, and the NH factory paid to get it back twice to try to fix. That's not SIG? Oh, just something they put their name on? (I have carried SIGs, a P226 and a P220. Both were OK, but not anything special. Their design is ancient from the 1970 era Browning design that barely sold and the bore line is so high above your hand the P220 especially is no real fun to shoot a lot in one day.)

But wait more. The S&W M&P and the Croatian guns are plastic bottomed, steel railed, striker fired, by a drawbar trigger, hand guns. Cosmetics and some engineering differ from Glock, but most were a step backwards, not forwards. Unless the ass end of the striker sticking out the rear of the slide really is an inovation. Oh, Smiths can have a safety. Not a step forward. For all practical purposes, they are copies of the Glock design idea.

But wait, what would I know. Barely 100 posts in the midst of internet genius. Some day I have to figure out quoting.

But wait, I gotta have a picture to be InterKool. I rate me::perfect10: (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37645)

Yes I am making fun of you.:rofl::postingqueen:

bac1023
01-30-2013, 20:46
Bac the s&w sigma was so similar to glock that glock sued them and won lol. People can say what they want about fit and finish our whatever. Glock is a workhorse and I'd put its reliability up against any hk or sig or there. It's like comparing the fit and finish of an f150 and a Mercedes. Obviously the Mercedes is nicer and maybe tighter built... It's still not surviving the abuse the Ford would.

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Yeah, the Sigma was for sure. I've got one myself.

I was speaking of the M&P and XD. That post was such a load of uneducated nonsense that I felt compelled to reply.

I also never said anything about the reliability, though I think I'd give HK and Sig a slight advantage over the last couple of years, wouldn't you?

A Glock's reliability is WAY overstated. They are no more reliable than a good 90% of the mainstream pistols on the market today. The problem is that too many here have no experience with much of anything else. Decades ago, Glock had a distinct reliability advantage over the competition. That's clearly not the case these days.

Some people need to wake up, get their head out of their ass. and realize that.

bac1023
01-30-2013, 20:58
:cool:bac1023 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37645)
Senior Member Posts: 74,485
Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?
You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree? :dunno:

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be. A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.
Do you have any other good info for me? :rofl:


Naw, really not. Unless its raining or really cold, I don't have time for 75,000 posts. Get a life.

But wait, it said SIG on the Mosquito, came in a SIG box, and the NH factory paid to get it back twice to try to fix. That's not SIG? Oh, just something they put their name on? (I have carried SIGs, a P226 and a P220. Both were OK, but not anything special. Their design is ancient from the 1970 era Browning design that barely sold and the bore line is so high above your hand the P220 especially is no real fun to shoot a lot in one day.)

But wait more. The S&W M&P and the Croatian guns are plastic bottomed, steel railed, striker fired, by a drawbar trigger, hand guns. Cosmetics and some engineering differ from Glock, but most were a step backwards, not forwards. Unless the ass end of the striker sticking out the rear of the slide really is an inovation. Oh, Smiths can have a safety. Not a step forward. For all practical purposes, they are copies of the Glock design idea.

But wait, what would I know. Barely 100 posts in the midst of internet genius. Some day I have to figure out quoting.

But wait, I gotta have a picture to be InterKool. I rate me::perfect10: (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37645)

Yes I am making fun of you.:rofl:


I have a great life, you?

I don't base anything on post count. I was basing my response solely on the complete cluelessness of your post.

I just thought I'd give you a bit of an education, so you could make a little more sense going forward.

Understood?

Actually, you probably don't :whistling:

bac1023
01-30-2013, 21:02
But wait, what would I know.

Apparently not too much...

So I guess you think Glock was the first striker fire design? How about the first polymer pistol?

Maybe they did the copying, no?

By the way, I don't think either the M&P or the XD is a step backwards. They are a step forwards, which Glock is now reacting to by releasing the Gen 4.

clarkz71
01-31-2013, 17:08
1

A Glock's reliability is WAY overstated. They are no more reliable than a good 90% of the mainstream pistols on the market today. The problem is that too many here have no experience with much of anything else. Decades ago, Glock had a distinct reliability advantage over the competition. That's clearly not the case these days.


Agreed, my G19 is from 1989. The good old days.

Meanie5470
01-31-2013, 17:46
Apparently not too much...

So I guess you think Glock was the first striker fire design? How about the first polymer pistol?

Maybe they did the copying, no?

By the way, I don't think either the M&P or the XD is a step backwards. They are a step forwards, which Glock is now reacting to by releasing the Gen 4.
The M&P and xd are a step forward in ergonomics. They will not last as long as the glock will 10000 rounds later though. Glock absolutely has its shortcomings and NO gun is 100% reliable but I would absolutely stand behind Glock over any other brand out there. Theyre strong and theyre simple. I would also say that Sig hasnt improved anything. Their best guns were the german made ones (that they do still offer). Their quality went downhill when they started building guns in NH. My only Sig is a p250. Granted its the cheapest gun they make but in all honesty its a piece of crap. Its been back to Sig twice for firing out of battery. The first time it blew out the extractor and the second time it cracked the frame. It was cheap but not much cheaper then a Glock at gssf pricing. Completely unsold me on Sig and im in the process of putting like 2000+ rounds through it to restore my faith because my girl actually likes to shoot the damn thing. If it werent for that it would be sold. And IMO the toughest auto S&W ever made was the Sigma lol. I would buy one if I found one cheap enough.

bac1023
01-31-2013, 17:59
The M&P and xd are a step forward in ergonomics. They will not last as long as the glock will 10000 rounds later though. Glock absolutely has its shortcomings and NO gun is 100% reliable but I would absolutely stand behind Glock over any other brand out there. Theyre strong and theyre simple. I would also say that Sig hasnt improved anything. Their best guns were the german made ones (that they do still offer). Their quality went downhill when they started building guns in NH. My only Sig is a p250. Granted its the cheapest gun they make but in all honesty its a piece of crap. Its been back to Sig twice for firing out of battery. The first time it blew out the extractor and the second time it cracked the frame. It was cheap but not much cheaper then a Glock at gssf pricing. Completely unsold me on Sig and im in the process of putting like 2000+ rounds through it to restore my faith because my girl actually likes to shoot the damn thing. If it werent for that it would be sold. And IMO the toughest auto S&W ever made was the Sigma lol. I would buy one if I found one cheap enough.


Personally, I don't care for the Sigs built in NH, but I really don't feel the quality of the standard P series pistols is any different. I agree about the P250, but I have a Sigpro 2022 that's been outstanding.

I not sure I agree that the XD or M&P are any less durable than a Glock.

Tiro Fijo
01-31-2013, 20:26
...A Glock's reliability is WAY overstated. They are no more reliable than a good 90% of the mainstream pistols on the market today...

Decades ago, Glock had a distinct reliability advantage over the competition. That's clearly not the case these days.

Some people need to wake up, get their head out of their ass. and realize that.


Glock is just as reliable today as in the 80's. The problem is that there are far more neophytes today who have no serious handgun training & who insist on running Walmart ammo through a gun sprung for NATO spec/self defense ammo and wonder why they get weak ejection. Easily solved is the shooter if willing to listen & change.

Back on topic, the SIG is more expensive due to more metal & more machine work. SIG also charges more because people keep buying their guns. I like SIG and have a new p229 SRT .357 that has been flawless for over 1K rds. H&K are great guns, however very overpriced for a gun with basically a Lorcin style trigger pull. There is no excuse for this awful trigger pull.

That said, the REAL new contender now is Walther who is gaining legs with their PPQ and their new PPX. The latter has a MSRP of less than $500. Walther is hungry for market share and it's to the shooter's benefit. The PPQ caught H&K with their pants down and basically left them in the dust. Ask anyone who has shot both.

Meanie5470
01-31-2013, 20:28
I wish I got a 2022 instead of the p250. The p250 is everything I wanted in a gun for my girl. Dao, easy to rack, smaller handle, 15 rd mag, no manual safety. It shoots excellent honestly. Smoothest da trigger I've ever felt. It's just had the 2 major malfunctions tho so I can't trust it. I held a p220 the other day in a shop and it felt very similar. Idk I guess I expected it to feel heavier and tighter then my 250 which was half the price but it didn't. I will say I'd buy an m&p or xd before another Sig.

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danysw
01-31-2013, 21:06
I have two M&Ps and even though they are outstanding pistols they will never shoot as my Sig P226 TacOps shoot. IMHO the only (not 1911) pistols capable to shoot better than the Sig P series are the Browning High Power and the CZ-75.

willieH
01-31-2013, 21:18
I like them all. Each has unique characteristics and none are perfect. If it weren't for the recall, the Caracal comes the closest to reaching "Glock Perfection"-- lower bore axis, fewer parts and nicer trigger. For some reason I can achieve better accuracy while shooting the Sig's.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/wlhutch/22/GlockG20sf_zps3564c5ee.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/wlhutch/22/GlockG17G23gen4.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/wlhutch/22/SigP220EliteDark.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/wlhutch/22/SigP226tacops2.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/wlhutch/22/9mmgroup2.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/wlhutch/22/CaracalFampC2.jpg

firstg19
01-31-2013, 21:31
They are all great guns. If someone is telling you they are not, then they probably don't own one of each. I have never had a problem with any of them except a glock 34. And for the guy who says something about not shooting walmart ammo in new glocks...why shouldn't you be able to, when i can shoot it in all my gen3 glocks, my sigs, hks, rugers, and springfields and it works perfectly fine. Perhaps the new thing is to pay more for a Sig or HK, for the simple fact you don't get brass to the face. By the time its all said and done, I'll have more in my g34 then I spent on my sigs or hks.

LawScholar
01-31-2013, 23:07
I really do like Glocks. I think they're mostly trustworthy, tough guns and will serve their owners well and faithfully. They're quality guns.

But it's a big mistake to get so caught up in brand myopia that you deny yourself the undeniable quality, engineering skill, and raw sexy factor found in many non-Glock pistols, even those that cost a bit more.

Grab a Beretta 92 Inox, a Sig 229 Elite Stainless, or an HK P7. Tell me you feel nothing. Tell me it's not worth extra money, even if it's not for you.

I shall call you a liar. :)

johnnywitt
02-01-2013, 00:28
The German manufactured Walther PPQ has them ALL beat right now IMO. Its a better HK than HK can make. Its an HK with a perfect trigger. Too bad you can't find one though.:crying:
It was S&W (the importer) that kept the lid on the Walther PPQ because the Walther was so far ahead of the M&P its not even funny & S&W knew that the Walther PPQ would eat their lunch if Folks found out just how good a PPQ really is.
Now that Walther has a headquarters in Fort Smith Arkansas you are going to see Walthers take the hell off- especially once the word starts to get out. I just hope they keep building them in Germany.

I sure like a Glock 19 though, it just works for me in about every way. A Glock 19 is hard act to follow in a compact pistol: it just gets about everything right, but it doesn't fit everybody-thats for sure. Now, maybe the Folks that just can't fit a Glock will have something else that is, honestly, more advanced than any other polymer striker fire pistol out there. I think Glock just got served by Walther.

Vtwinpw
02-01-2013, 00:41
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

Biggest load of crap I have ever seen posted on a gun forum.

Tiro Fijo
02-01-2013, 03:35
...It was S&W (the importer) that kept the lid on the Walther PPQ because the Walther was so far ahead of the M&P its not even funny & S&W knew that the Walther PPQ would eat their lunch if Folks found out just how good a PPQ really is...

Not true. S&W did what Walther PAID them to do and nothing more. Walther is a very small co. who has never spent a lot of money on advertising and quite frankly they are now having birthing pains as their new facility has no guns & no parts and they are hoping for such by no later than the end of the 1st quarter. Walther was beyond sluggish in supporting S&W with parts for repairs. S&W will still manufacture the PPK for Walther however using Pinetree cast frames (Ruger).

series1811
02-01-2013, 07:16
Personally, I don't care for the Sigs built in NH, but I really don't feel the quality of the standard P series pistols is any different. I agree about the P250, but I have a Sigpro 2022 that's been outstanding.

I not sure I agree that the XD or M&P are any less durable than a Glock.

I've got a W. German Sig P226 I bought in 1988, and a newly purchased Sig P226R, I just bought. The trigger pulls, action, and quality seems equal in both, as far as I can tell.

LampShadeActual
02-01-2013, 07:55
it's a big mistake to get so caught up in brand myopia that you deny yourself the undeniable quality, engineering skill, and raw sexy factor found in many non-Glock pistols, even those that cost a bit more.

Now that is a good one.

My idea of "raw sexy factor" starts with an AR-15, not some pop gun.

A handgun is simply what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never let be so far out of reach in the first place.

series1811
02-01-2013, 08:19
it's a big mistake to get so caught up in brand myopia that you deny yourself the undeniable quality, engineering skill, and raw sexy factor found in many non-Glock pistols, even those that cost a bit more.

Now that is a good one.

My idea of "raw sexy factor" starts with an AR-15, not some pop gun.

A handgun is simply what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never let be so far out of reach in the first place.

Well, that's fine for the people who never have to go anywhere they can't take a rifle with them. Not all of us have that luxury.

bac1023
02-01-2013, 08:23
My idea of "raw sexy factor" starts with an AR-15, not some pop gun.

A handgun is simply what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never let be so far out of reach in the first place.

:upeyes:

I must say that you're just way too tactical for me.

Maybe I'll be as cool as you are someday, but right now I still don't carry an AR-15 in my car every day.

2-8 Marine
02-01-2013, 09:01
bac1023 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37645)
Senior Member Posts: 74,485
Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?
You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree? :dunno:

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be. A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.
Do you have any other good info for me? :rofl:


Naw, really not. Unless its raining or really cold, I don't have time for 75,000 posts. Get a life.

But wait, it said SIG on the Mosquito, came in a SIG box, and the NH factory paid to get it back twice to try to fix. That's not SIG? Oh, just something they put their name on? (I have carried SIGs, a P226 and a P220. Both were OK, but not anything special. Their design is ancient from the 1970 era Browning design that barely sold and the bore line is so high above your hand the P220 especially is no real fun to shoot a lot in one day.)

But wait more. The S&W M&P and the Croatian guns are plastic bottomed, steel railed, striker fired, by a drawbar trigger, hand guns. Cosmetics and some engineering differ from Glock, but most were a step backwards, not forwards. Unless the ass end of the striker sticking out the rear of the slide really is an inovation. Oh, Smiths can have a safety. Not a step forward. For all practical purposes, they are copies of the Glock design idea.

But wait, what would I know. Barely 100 posts in the midst of internet genius. Some day I have to figure out quoting.

But wait, I gotta have a picture to be InterKool. I rate me::perfect10: (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37645)

Yes I am making fun of you.:rofl::postingqueen:


Those who have no valid argument resort to personal
attacks.

2-8 Marine
02-01-2013, 09:09
I've got a W. German Sig P226 I bought in 1988, and a newly purchased Sig P226R, I just bought. The trigger pulls, action, and quality seems equal in both, as far as I can tell.

I agree, I have a Sig P228 (German) manufactured in the early 90s and a P239 made about 3 years ago and the trigger pull, action and quality are very close.

LawScholar
02-01-2013, 10:18
it's a big mistake to get so caught up in brand myopia that you deny yourself the undeniable quality, engineering skill, and raw sexy factor found in many non-Glock pistols, even those that cost a bit more.

Now that is a good one.

My idea of "raw sexy factor" starts with an AR-15, not some pop gun.

A handgun is simply what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never let be so far out of reach in the first place.

See, I just like a well-engineered firearm, I don't discriminate. :)

For my money, a Browning Hi-Power with good blue finish and quality wood grips is to even the fanciest AR-15 what Mila Kunis is to that fat chick from Bridesmaids. And I say that having a fancy Daniel Defense AR that I love

Also, not to lecture, but if you're referring to firearms as "pop guns" you're probably not giving them the respect they're due. Those pop guns will kill you in a heartbeat if you don't take them seriously, safety-wise.

Browner
02-01-2013, 11:54
I saw a Sig 938 9mm at a store last week. I was wondering if anyone has had one, or shot one? I was thinking about getting one. Ron

LampShadeActual
02-01-2013, 12:44
I have not yet figured out how to get an AR-15 into my cargo shorts front pants pocket no matter how hard I try for three seasons tucked in T-Shirt weather.

I have carried and been paid to use S&W, Glock, Colt, SIG, and HK guns ever since 1975 and occasionally snuck a Walther or Beretta in here and there as needed. Nothing is superior to a Glock for simply going bang and hitting your target with no firearms related fuss.

As to a pocket gun, Kahr, Taurus, KelTec, and Diamondback products have been tried and passed to the junk pile as unreliable. My S&W M&P 340 .357 with Speer GD 135+P loads gets the nod whenever a Glock doesn't find a belt holster to ride on. They both go bang every time.

As to the AR-15, I'm only half joking. Surprise, time, and distance keep you alive. Anything other than nailing the threat from surprise from the longest possible distance away taking all the time you need means you are in the threats environment playing his game. Odds being what odds are and Mr. Murphy being closely related to Mrs. Murphy who is a cold be'ach, playing someone else's game means you lose sometimes.

No body in their right mind faced off in the street in Tombstone with pistols. They shot the threat in the back with a rifle as he rode into town. Dry Gulching means careful survivorship.

iflyem1
02-01-2013, 15:14
Glocks are inexpensive because they cost less to make. Glock's have fewer parts and their manufacturing process is very efficient and cost effective. The Glock revolution was as much about the way they make guns as the guns themselves.

I agree. I have a Glock, Sig and H&K and you can tell that the Glock is the cheapest to produce due to having less machined parts and less parts in total. I have never had a problem with either of my guns and they are all quality pieces. I guess they are like women, some just cost more than others!:wow:

grecco
02-01-2013, 15:35
why cant glock get a polymer frame right?
why the pig nose, what purpose does it serve?

AgentM79
02-01-2013, 21:34
If I had to pick another brand of service weapon over Glock, it would absolutely be the Sig. I like the DA/SA transition offered by the Sig, as well as the location of the frame-mounted de-cocking lever. The Sig P220 I own shoots tight groups and operates flawlessly with whatever factory ammo I shoot through it. The precision manufacture of these guns is what you pay for, and the W.German made guns (in particular) tend to hold their value well.

I was once a Beretta guy, but found the lousy first-shot DA pull and slide-mounted de-cocker (G-variant) were a detriment to my best shooting. S&W Gen3's had the same slide-mounted lever issue, but a good DA (and even DAO) trigger pull. However, the S&W's had durability issues (the trigger play spring and fitted extractor being the Achilles heel of the design).

I carry a Glock on duty, and use the Sig as a range gun for a change of pace. My "M-glove-size" hands don't do well with .45ACP Glock pistols, so the Sig is my .45ACP platform. Yes, I know that the carbon-steel slide of the Sig can corrode if I expose it to the elements (abuse that a Glock would shrug off). I also know that Sig doesn't recommend sustained use of "+P" in the older P220's (a capability Glock shooters take for granted). The Sig bore axis doesn't phase me in the least, and, again, I enjoy my Sig for it's precision.

Metal-framed guns with lots of parts tend to cost more than polymer-framed pistols with a low parts-count. Sigs cost more than Glocks. I love both!!

AustinTx
02-01-2013, 22:06
It's too bad that S&W isn't still making the old steel DA/SA pistols. When the English firm owned the company, they made a lot of neat steel auto pistols. You could order a custom gun, from the ordinary catalog, until they messed up the whole company. I'm just not gonna like the SIG, so that pretty well narrows it down to CZ, I think. Does S&W still make any of their old steel autos, not custom shop deals?

bac1023
02-02-2013, 05:45
It's too bad that S&W isn't still making the old steel DA/SA pistols. When the English firm owned the company, they made a lot of neat steel auto pistols. You could order a custom gun, from the ordinary catalog, until they messed up the whole company. I'm just not gonna like the SIG, so that pretty well narrows it down to CZ, I think. Does S&W still make any of their old steel autos, not custom shop deals?

Smith does. not build any steel autos except for 1911s, other than the Performance Center. I think they still build the 41 in the Performance Center.

AgentM79
02-02-2013, 08:54
Smith does. not build any steel autos except for 1911s, other than the Performance Center. I think they still build the 41 in the Performance Center.

Categorically untrue. As of now, S&W is still making their Gen3 metal frame guns for LE contract orders. The guns are made at their facility in Houlton, Maine (where they also make their excellent handcuffs). I'm from NY, and the 3914DAO and 5946 are still made for NYPD. The local gun stores stock the 3914DAO's for NYPD off-duty purchase. I've also seen new-manufacture 6946's available for local sale (also used here in NY, by NYC Corrections). Also, about a year ago S&W announced a contract sale of metal-framed .45ACP's (I don't recall which model) for a Police agency which wanted to continue the use of these guns. If you REALLY want a metal-framed S&W, certain models can still be had. You'll pay a Sig Sauer price, though.

bac1023
02-02-2013, 09:11
Categorically untrue. As of now, S&W is still making their Gen3 metal frame guns for LE contract orders. The guns are made at their facility in Houlton, Maine (where they also make their excellent handcuffs). I'm from NY, and the 3914DAO and 5946 are still made for NYPD. The local gun stores stock the 3914DAO's for NYPD off-duty purchase. I've also seen new-manufacture 6946's available for local sale (also used here in NY, by NYC Corrections). Also, about a year ago S&W announced a contract sale of metal-framed .45ACP's (I don't recall which model) for a Police agency which wanted to continue the use of these guns. If you REALLY want a metal-framed S&W, certain models can still be had. You'll pay a Sig Sauer price, though.

Well, you know what I mean...

They don't make them for the masses anymore. They even stopped building their best steel Performance Center autos.

Sad :sad:

Meanie5470
02-02-2013, 13:35
I feel like Smith never made an auto that was so damn awesome that I'd have them keep making it for my police department so I didn't have to switch to something else lol.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Pier23
02-02-2013, 18:01
Barrett's book on Glock is a useful referent here...and there was a repeat of his interview with Terri Gross (sp) on "Fresh Air" the other day.

Barrett sd the Glock costs betw $80-$90 to produce. Gaston wanted to sell the fun cheap, since his costs were low. The US marketing guy...last name Walter, forget the first name, sd that wouldn't work in the US where price is viewed as an indicator of quality. So Walter hatched the idea of a high list price but steep discounts fo LEO departments.

Then the '94 gun ban kicked in, but Glock saw that coming and had a HUGE stockpile of pre-ban weapons and mags warehoused...THEN they had the LEO tradein program providing MORE pre-ban weapons to the secondary market...

Love the Glock or not, you have to admire the marketing and sales methods.

mrsurfboard
02-02-2013, 19:35
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.

I've owned my Sig P225 for over 20 years and it has zero rust on it and has never jammed once.

AustinTx
02-02-2013, 22:17
Categorically untrue. As of now, S&W is still making their Gen3 metal frame guns for LE contract orders. The guns are made at their facility in Houlton, Maine (where they also make their excellent handcuffs). I'm from NY, and the 3914DAO and 5946 are still made for NYPD. The local gun stores stock the 3914DAO's for NYPD off-duty purchase. I've also seen new-manufacture 6946's available for local sale (also used here in NY, by NYC Corrections). Also, about a year ago S&W announced a contract sale of metal-framed .45ACP's (I don't recall which model) for a Police agency which wanted to continue the use of these guns. If you REALLY want a metal-framed S&W, certain models can still be had. You'll pay a Sig Sauer price, though.

Categorically true! Order a Model 5906 and let us know how it is. That was a normal DA/SA 9mm auto pistol, in 1993.

Look at an old S&W catalog, about 1993, and see all the different models they offered, to just any ordinary joe, with money. They were about, in Glock's price range. Most of us normal people can't buy any of those old 3rd gen S&Ws. I, personally wouldn't have a gun that any NY organization would want.

Sig-Sauer, after Glock, is the most overpriced piece of junk made. IMO. Actually, I'll take a Glock anytime, over the sig. The best thing, with the sig name on it is the 357 SIG cartridge.

bac1023 actually understood the post, thanks bac!

AgentM79
02-03-2013, 10:31
Categorically true! Order a Model 5906 and let us know how it is. That was a normal DA/SA 9mm auto pistol, in 1993.

Look at an old S&W catalog, about 1993, and see all the different models they offered, to just any ordinary joe, with money. They were about, in Glock's price range. Most of us normal people can't buy any of those old 3rd gen S&Ws. I, personally wouldn't have a gun that any NY organization would want.

Sig-Sauer, after Glock, is the most overpriced piece of junk made. IMO. Actually, I'll take a Glock anytime, over the sig. The best thing, with the sig name on it is the 357 SIG cartridge.

bac1023 actually understood the post, thanks bac!

Happy Superbowl, AustinTx! The point I was trying to convey was that "new" metal-framed S&W Gen3 semi-autos ARE still being made. Granted, the offerings available to the general public are a far cry from the days of "gun-of-the-week" and the 1990's. However, it's not hard to see why S&W has pretty much "shelved" the line. Frankly, no one was buying Gen3's anymore. Glock had firmly kicked S&W to the curb in LE holsters (or rather, into the Distributor Trade-In Program). S&W's polymer framed offerings were a disaster for the company (the Glock "settlement" over the Sigma, for example, and the S&W/Walther SW99 "hybrids" that no-one seemed to want. Yes, Sigma-series guns generate gun show revenue, and were purchased in quantity by the US Government for use by our "allies"). Even though S&W upgraded the Gen3 line with the "tactical" enhancements, the guns still had slide-mounted safety levers, magazine disconnects, fitted parts (extractors, sear levers), slide components that required removal of the rear sight to access, and a trigger play spring that could usually be counted upon to depart the frame within 3000 rounds (the CHP actually specified that this part, vestigal in a DAO, be omitted from their 4046's). On top of that, Gen3 S&W's couldn't compete with Glocks, price-wise, even 10 years ago. The Gen3's were still eminently shootable guns, and I'll say this - as a now-expired armorer for S&W TDA Gen3's, and a firearms instructor for an agency that transitioned from S&W to Glock 7 years ago - S&W tried HARD to make guns for everyone. They made 9mm's, 40's and .45's in alloy and steel, and in different frame sizes/barrel lengths. They purpose-built the 1076 for a major federal agency. They modified early Gen3's with frame-mounted decockers. They even developed a way to retrofit TDA guns with spring loaded slide-mounted decockers. Then came CNC improvements and the "tactical" series guns. With ALL that, Glock still won, and at little more than half the price.

It's not even that Glocks are BETTER guns than Gen3 S&W's, per se. But, Glock pistols have half the parts count and don't require a bench vise and an entire box of specialized tools to work on. The fact that Glock pistols are more durable can't be disputed, though.

I'll respectfully disagree with you about Sig. In .45ACP, the P220 does things for me that the G21/G30 can't. Sure, I paid damned near $800 for the pride-of-ownership of a used-but-mint W.German-made gun, and a small fortune for extra magazines. But for me, it was worth it.

I could easily obtain a used Gen3 S&W 5906 locally if I wanted one. A 5946, even more easily. There's a S&W Distributor in Roslyn, NY (Standard Law http://www.standardlaw.us/) that carries both S&W LE trades and new-production guns. Very nice folks - I just bought a nice used S&W 681 from them yesterday. Anyone looking for a used Gen3 S&W, or newer NYPD-spec S&W, should give them a call. Although I'm glad my agency doesn't require the NY-2 trigger spring, I can't fault NYPD's logic in specifying the features they do in their service and off-duty weapons. They transitioned an enormous police force from revolver to semi-auto, and specified that the triggers of their semi-autos, both on-duty and off-duty, approximate that of a S&W or Ruger DAO revolver. They continue this line-of-reasoning to this day, and continually T&E weapon designs. They believe in commonality-of-training, and get into a lot of gun fights. They know a thing or two about the topic. Their armorers maintain a staggering number of service and off-duty guns - including long guns. It would be hard to argue that the S&W 5946 isn't a great police gun, and that a 3914DAO isn't a great back-up/off duty to complement it. Likewise a G19 supplemented by a G26 - even if they have NY-2 springs installed. I WOULD prefer that the 3914DAO have the older-style S&W "improved DAO" mechanism rather than a full-travel DAO pull, but that's what is currently available locally in a new-production metal-framed S&W.

It's a long post, but it's freezing outside today..........

AustinTx
02-03-2013, 23:47
AgentM79

It's a dirty shame, but S&W was driven into bankruptcy by the US gun buying public. People boycotted S&W, after they signed some agreement with the US slum building agency, under Bill Clinton. The English company sold out to the current owners, I don't even know, or care who they are, anymore. They no longer make anything, I need.

People got pretty mad about the high-cap mag ban, to drive S&W under. Bill Ruger was in on the 10 round mag deal, too, but people didn't seem to mind about Ruger. He said no one needed more than 10 rounds. Ruger wouldn't make mags for the Mini-14 that held more then 10 rounds. His heirs have fixed that. A lot of American workers lost their jobs at S&W and I haven't quite figured out how I feel about that yet. I think folks, cut off their nose, to spite their face. I didn't have a dog, in that scrap, fortunately.

I don't think you can even get S&W revolvers with the big square target grip frame, now. You also get a hole, in the frame, now.

It's just, water under the bridge.

AgentM79
02-04-2013, 06:17
AustinTx, you echo my sentiments exactly. I'm a huge fan of "old" S&W, and my (relatively) short list of "forever" guns include a pair of .357 K-Frames - a 4" M13-2 (sq. butt, pinned and recessed, the way G-d intended them to be) and a rare 3" M66. Because I'm loathe to put much "mileage" on either gun, I bought a police-trade-in M681 on Saturday from the distributor I mentioned. Outside of some holster wear, it's mechanically tight and has a shot-smooth action that no gunsmith could replicate. And, I have an entire box of square butt grips from various manufacturers that I will be trying out on it once it's cleaned up (including a set of Pachmayr "Jordan Troopers" made of plastic - I always liked that grip, although it's no longer made by Pachmayr).

I remember how the shooting public punished S&W after they signed onto the "It's a crime, Bill". That was a huge blow to the company, which was subsequently sold (as you know) to a gun lock maker. Hence, the prevailing presence of the hated "Hillary Hole" on their revolvers (though by popular demand they are now omitting it from some J-frames - perhaps there's hope yet). Although Ruger was in favor of 10-round magazines, at least he didn't wreck the GP100 and SP101.

"New" S&W has it's hands full with the M&P pistol line, as they have finally built the "anti-Glock" that they so desperately sought in the Sigma and SW99. At least LE customers can get a polymer frame gun with an optional mag disconnect or manual safety, and that doesn't require a trigger pull for take-down. They have yet to really put a dent in Glock's market share, though, but will eventually do so by default (especially because Sig's P250 was stillborn, and Beretta's PX pistols have elicited almost no LE interest).

Too much work (forging, casting, finishing, fitting, gauging, assembly) goes into the making of a metal-framed gun to make them price-competitive with Glocks. That's why "metal" Sig pistols cost 2x what Glock pistols cost, and why S&W couldn't competitively continue making their AIP/Third Generation /Tactical guns at an affordable price point. That's my take on it. At least we'll still have LE trade-in's for awhile longer..........

glocktecher
02-04-2013, 10:30
Glocks, to me anyway, are actually quite a bit overpriced when looking at comparable brands from S&W, Ruger, S/A, & Beretta.

And SIG has a P250 (that uninformed Glockers laugh at) that is $399.