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G26man
02-09-2013, 10:48
I've read several books of WWII and Vietnam sniper exploits and in those wars being a sniper involved lots of sneaking around in the woods, long distance infiltration, fieldcraft, etc. A sniper and his spotter alone on a mission for a week or two by themselves on foot, covering a lot of ground to get to their position and back. I just bought a Remington SPS Tactical and it got me to thinking about the typical "sniper rifle" you see today with the 24" big fat bull barrel and massive heavy duty scope that weighs another couple of pounds at least. Arent these way too heavy for the kind of field work our snipers did back then? I know the wars we fight today are almost all urban or even in the desert the snipers are transported in vehicles and even sometimes deploy themselves directly on top of the same vehicle. I just can't see them humping a 15-20lb gun all over hell and back like they used to do. Have we given up that capability or am I just a wimp for thinking they might be too heavy?

ak103k
02-09-2013, 11:25
Youre a wimp. :)

What do you do for a living? What kind of shape are you in?

The people of prior generations were usually in a lot better physical shape than the people of today.

China boy
02-09-2013, 11:57
That was an evil post. Look at your post count.

DonD
02-09-2013, 12:06
Youre a wimp. :)

What do you do for a living? What kind of shape are you in?

The people of prior generations were usually in a lot better physical shape than the people of today.

Rubbish, ever look at most of the recruits in photos from WWII? They're mostly beanpoles, not muscular at all.

While the average citizen of WWII might be more lean and trim and physically active, athletic performance constantly improves and that is due to physical strength and fitness.

And yeah, humping a min 15# sniper gun and enough pack to sustain you remotely for days is work. Having your pulse ramped up isn't conducive to a good firing solution. Don

Hedo1
02-09-2013, 12:11
You shoot what you are assigned and trained with. ALL rifles are heavy if you hump them long enough. Vietnam was hot as hell I'm told. Iraq got up to 115F some days.

I'm sure our current snipers would shoot the WW2 and Vietnam era gear if they had to and shoot the hell out of it. I'd also bet the WW2 Grunts and Gunny Hathcock would have loved to get their hands on a High end sniper rifle or Barret of today.

arclight610
02-09-2013, 12:26
I'd take a 16lb M40 over a 20lb SAW and 1000rds of ammo and body armor any day if we are talking strictly about weight.

If we are talking about pooping your pants and getting bit by giant bugs while having to lay perfectly still, then I'll take the SAW.

gatorboy
02-09-2013, 12:29
Not sure where to find this info but I'd guess the average sniper is at least 2" taller and 20# heavier than 70 years ago. It's a fact American children are hitting puberty earlier today than then and most believe it's hormones in the animals we eat.

Also, don't snipers parachute in cases where it's feasable?

gatorboy
02-09-2013, 12:32
I'd take a 16lb M40 over a 20lb SAW and 1000rds of ammo and body armor any day if we are talking strictly about weight.

If we are talking about pooping your pants and getting bit by giant bugs while having to lay perfectly still, then I'll take the SAW.

Serious question: do they wear adult diapers?

itstime
02-09-2013, 12:32
A simple comparison between a Garand and M4 should tell you a lot.

Whenever I shoot a Garand I think about all those "beanpoles" running around Europe and the Pacific.

hogship
02-09-2013, 12:36
Rubbish, ever look at most of the recruits in photos from WWII? They're mostly beanpoles, not muscular at all.

While the average citizen of WWII might be more lean and trim and physically active, athletic performance constantly improves and that is due to physical strength and fitness.

And yeah, humping a min 15# sniper gun and enough pack to sustain you remotely for days is work. Having your pulse ramped up isn't conducive to a good firing solution. Don

When comparing athletes, yes, today's athletes have never been bigger and stronger......

When it comes to the average person's physical fitness, the WW2 generation leaves our current generation in the dust! We have never had a generation so fat and out of shape than we do now. This is a product of what they physically do with themselves.

I live only a few blocks away from a neighborhood baseball field with backstop. After living in this home for about 15 years, I can't honestly say I've ever seen any kids actually using that field for baseball, or any other physical sport. I'd say about every fifth house has a basketball hoop......but, almost none of them ever get used.......ever. (There is one kid that throws some hoops quite a bit......one kid!)

When I was a kid, we almost lived on our bicycles., and had a good idea of our surroundings because we went places........now, these kids only go outside to go to a friends to play video games, and a lot of them don't spend five minutes on a bicycle in their lives.



ooc

ak103k
02-09-2013, 12:37
That was an evil post. Look at your post count.
LOL. Yea boy! :rofl:

They're mostly beanpoles, not muscular at all.
You dont have to be muscle bound to be fit and strong. Many of the soldiers in WWII were farm boys, and those who worked physically for a living, who were very fit and strong. Todays lifestyles are considerably different.

Kids of that era, were more fit than kids of today. Most kids these days, are internet strong, kids back then actually played physically, and were fit. Go back and look at old film clips of all people of the day, and you will rarely see a fat person, let alone a fat kid.

These days, youre lucky to see a 10 year old under 150 pounds. :)

You shoot what you are assigned and trained with. ALL rifles are heavy if you hump them long enough.
The key words here are, "trained with". If you hump one around all the time, its not near as heavy as you develop muscle tone. Its what you become use to.

How that relates to shooting is, go to your local range, and see how many people actually shoot from a field position. 99% of them shoot off some kind of a bench or rest, and consider themselves to be good shots. Hand them that SPS and ask them to hit a standard IPSC silhouette at 200 yards off hand, and Id be willing to bet, most couldnt.

I see more wanna bes with tacticool guns that cant shoot, than I do shooters actually plying the trade. Shooting off a bench doesnt make you a rifleman.

I'm sure our current snipers would shoot the WW2 and Vietnam era gear if they had to and shoot the hell out of it. I'd also bet the WW2 Grunts and Gunny Hathcock would have loved to get their hands on a High end sniper rifle or Barret of today.
I agree.

427
02-09-2013, 12:52
Observation:

I think there were a lot more, for lack of a better word, "natural" shots back then. Generations ago, people were more rural, and depended on skills with a firearm - to some extant fieldcraft- to put food on the table - if they missed, the family didn't eat. Kids grew up shooting at a very young age. Having basic fundamentals down, they were able to work with crude, by the standards of today, sights and be very effective.

Today, we use and depend on technology for making shots.

Again, an observation and not a criticism.

DonD
02-09-2013, 12:57
When comparing athletes, yes, today's athletes have never been bigger and stronger......

When it comes to the average person's physical fitness, the WW2 generation leaves our current generation in the dust! We have never had a generation so fat and out of shape than we do now. This is a product of what they physically do with themselves.

I certainly agree that in general US fitness levels are horrid, certainly the worst since anytime in the 20th century. Having said that, our hard core Marines, Rangers, Delta, SEALs are the best fighting troops in history.

A similar situation exists in my opinion in education. We're still socially promoting, accepting substandard performance but the best and brightest are simply outstanding. Don

Darkangel1846
02-09-2013, 12:59
Sniping in Vietnam was different then now....Lots of city fighting, a humvee takes you to a spot drops you off, you hike half a mile to you high point then go to work.
sometimes a chopper takes you to a point and drops you off, you hike 4 or five miles and set up. You have specialized weapons & scopes where you can hit a target 1 shot at a mile.
Hathcock sometimes would take 3-4 days to slowly move up to a target, the mid east wars you set up and wait for the targets to come to you.
WWII the Jap snipers gave the marines fits.
WWI it was trench to trench sniping.
My Dad was 17 when he was with the marines in WWI, his division did a frontal bayonet charge assault on the Bellow woods. They over ran the germans but lost 10,000 marines doing it. Those men were beanpoles, but brave and strong. Dad didn't talk about that much, but would sometimes cry when he would watch old videos of WWI

ithaca_deerslayer
02-09-2013, 13:14
There is strong, and then there is farm strong :)

___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

Haldor
02-09-2013, 19:46
I've read several books of WWII and Vietnam sniper exploits and in those wars being a sniper involved lots of sneaking around in the woods, long distance infiltration, fieldcraft, etc. A sniper and his spotter alone on a mission for a week or two by themselves on foot, covering a lot of ground to get to their position and back. I just bought a Remington SPS Tactical and it got me to thinking about the typical "sniper rifle" you see today with the 24" big fat bull barrel and massive heavy duty scope that weighs another couple of pounds at least. Arent these way too heavy for the kind of field work our snipers did back then? I know the wars we fight today are almost all urban or even in the desert the snipers are transported in vehicles and even sometimes deploy themselves directly on top of the same vehicle. I just can't see them humping a 15-20lb gun all over hell and back like they used to do. Have we given up that capability or am I just a wimp for thinking they might be too heavy?

Read about Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam. Hathcock was an early proponent of using the .50 cal for sniping. He used an M2 50 cal machine gun with a 10 power scope to take out a VC at 2500 yards. That record stood for 35 years.

Haldor
02-09-2013, 19:48
There is strong, and then there is farm strong :)

___________
I joined the NRA, have you yet?

I love the story from one of John Ringo's novels about how a college football coach used to pick linemen. He would drive through farm country until he found a young man plowing. He would stop and ask them directions to a local place. If they pointed with their arm, he thanked them and drove on. The one who pointed with the plow he recruited.

countrygun
02-09-2013, 19:58
Read about Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam. Hathcock was an early proponent of using the .50 cal for sniping. He used an M2 50 cal machine gun with a 10 power scope to take out a VC at 2500 yards. That record stood for 35 years.

From a fixed position, and given the nature of the conflict.

Humping a Ma Deuce in the bush? I don't think so.

:tongueout:

Haldor
02-09-2013, 20:13
My Dad was 17 when he was with the marines in WWI, his division did a frontal bayonet charge assault on the Bellow woods. They over ran the germans but lost 10,000 marines doing it. Those men were beanpoles, but brave and strong. Dad didn't talk about that much, but would sometimes cry when he would watch old videos of WWI

I am very thankful for your fathers service, but it was called the Battle of Belleau Wood. Marine losses totaled 3615 wounded and 1062 killed for both Chateau-Thierry and Belleau Wood combined.

The Marines attack on Chateau-Thierry was generally considered a shambles that never should have been permitted to happen (marching across open fields into interlocked heavy machine gun fire). It is a tribute to the spirit of the Marines involved that they were able to keep fighting despite suffering a 55% casualty rate in 25 days.

http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/usa/belleauwood1918.html

http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/ct_bw.htm

Just out of curiosity how old are you?

Haldor
02-09-2013, 20:18
From a fixed position, and given the nature of the conflict.

Humping a Ma Deuce in the bush? I don't think so.

:tongueout:

OK, you got me. I made it up.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7O1dEGxxxqcdCP35PrLAUxR_xfYe0n_PGK0eHgYpqWT8zub0NXQ

Seriously how hard would it have been to spend 10 seconds researching this for yourself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock

countrygun
02-09-2013, 20:27
[QUOTE=Haldor;19969236]OK, you got me. I made it up.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7O1dEGxxxqcdCP35PrLAUxR_xfYe0n_PGK0eHgYpqWT8zub0NXQ

Seriously how hard would it have been to spend 10 seconds researching this for yourself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock[/QUOTEI

I never said he didn't use .50, get off your high horse.

I have the book on him right here ("Marine Sniper") as well as the video he made. I have done my research. Why don't you take look at the situation and the conditions under which he killed the kid on the bicycle with the weapon. He didn't hump that gun into the bush.

You will also note, in the book, that he once used 20mm Recoiless with flechettes to eliminate n enemy sniper, but he didn't hump that one into the bush either :upeyes:

faawrenchbndr
02-09-2013, 20:29
Then......


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/Remington%201903/c8357963c36a472a74c9b7c216796206.jpg


Now,......


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/c6912592828ffdd9b77e3167ec8f90e3.jpg

ancient_serpent
02-09-2013, 20:34
I carried my M24, drag bag, bios, pistol, ghilli suit, water, etc all over training areas in Korea during week long training exercises. My partner carried an M4, pistol, water, spotting scope, etc with me.
Sucks, but you get used to it.

DonD
02-09-2013, 20:54
Read about Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam. Hathcock was an early proponent of using the .50 cal for sniping. He used an M2 50 cal machine gun with a 10 power scope to take out a VC at 2500 yards. That record stood for 35 years.

Well, knowing how much drop a modern .50BMG round with a Hornady AMAX with a BC of 1.050 has compared to the miserable BC of the ball ammo Hathcock must have used, it was a miracle shot.

In no way denigrating the great accomplishments of Hathcock, just commenting that the M2 isn't a great sniper gun and the ammo available to him was poor. Don

Haldor
02-09-2013, 21:07
Well, knowing how much drop a modern .50BMG round with a Hornady AMAX with a BC of 1.050 has compared to the miserable BC of the ball ammo Hathcock must have used, it was a miracle shot.

In no way denigrating the great accomplishments of Hathcock, just commenting that the M2 isn't a great sniper gun and the ammo available to him was poor. Don

No doubt. It was just better than anything else available to him at the time. The tripod and weight of the M2 certainly couldn't have hurt though.

garya1961
02-09-2013, 21:31
When comparing athletes, yes, today's athletes have never been bigger and stronger......

When it comes to the average person's physical fitness, the WW2 generation leaves our current generation in the dust! We have never had a generation so fat and out of shape than we do now. This is a product of what they physically do with themselves.

I live only a few blocks away from a neighborhood baseball field with backstop. After living in this home for about 15 years, I can't honestly say I've ever seen any kids actually using that field for baseball, or any other physical sport. I'd say about every fifth house has a basketball hoop......but, almost none of them ever get used.......ever. (There is one kid that throws some hoops quite a bit......one kid!)

When I was a kid, we almost lived on our bicycles., and had a good idea of our surroundings because we went places........now, these kids only go outside to go to a friends to play video games, and a lot of them don't spend five minutes on a bicycle in their lives.



ooc


Me too, but now I spend a lot of time typing on a key board with my greasy fingers,lol.

dbow
02-09-2013, 21:51
I carried my M24, drag bag, bios, pistol, ghilli suit, water, etc all over training areas in Korea during week long training exercises. My partner carried an M4, pistol, water, spotting scope, etc with me.
Sucks, but you get used to it.

Just curious, why did they have you carry pistols? What pistol did you carry?

Haldor
02-09-2013, 22:24
You dont have to be muscle bound to be fit and strong. Many of the soldiers in WWII were farm boys, and those who worked physically for a living, who were very fit and strong. Todays lifestyles are considerably different.

Kids of that era, were more fit than kids of today. Most kids these days, are internet strong, kids back then actually played physically, and were fit. Go back and look at old film clips of all people of the day, and you will rarely see a fat person, let alone a fat kid.

These days, youre lucky to see a 10 year old under 150 pounds. :)

This is my son at 18 in 2011. 5'10" and 135 lb

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/HaldorPhil/P1010185_zps7fda5053.jpg

This is him last summer right before he went to boot camp at Parris Island. 144 lb

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/HaldorPhil/P1010678_zps7f99c15c.jpg

I don't have a recent pic since he got back from Camp Geiger (infantry school), but he now weighs 150 lb and has packed on quite a bit of muscle. He can run 6 miles without stopping, do 20 chin-ups and more push-ups than I can count.

My son enlisted in the delayed entry program in November of 2011. He had been planning on joining the Marine corp since he was a freshman in high school. He spent his junior year running track just to be sure he would be ready for the running requirements. He spent his senior year lifting weight, running and doing MMA.

For his entire senior year in high school he trained with a group of MC pooles. I took him to every single weekly workout and all of his monthly weekend events, I don't recall seeing a single member of his poole group who was overweight and despite his hard work and determination, my son didn't stand out greatly from that group (they all looked a lot like him).

It is easy to denigrate now in honor of some golden past, but I don't recall me or my friends being this fit at that age.

fnfalman
02-10-2013, 03:59
No doubt. It was just better than anything else available to him at the time. The tripod and weight of the M2 certainly couldn't have hurt though.

Not to mention the T&E mechanism to make minute adjustments.

ancient_serpent
02-11-2013, 20:24
Just curious, why did they have you carry pistols? What pistol did you carry?

I'm sorry it took so long to respond, wasn't watching this thread.
We were issued M9's and decided to carry them with us due to the mission requirements.
We were responsible for CSAR, executive protection, hostage rescue and the like.

PzGren
02-11-2013, 23:46
Youre a wimp. :)

What do you do for a living? What kind of shape are you in?

The people of prior generations were usually in a lot better physical shape than the people of today.

You are kidding, right?

Snipers in the Cold War in German combat unit had to pass a demanding physical test. In the Wehrmacht, reliability and personality were more important than physical prowess.

ak103k
02-12-2013, 06:22
While I was being a bit of a smart ass, I was also referring to the American people of today.

If you look at the old news reels, how many Germans, other than Goring and a few other "officials", looked like the average American of today? Wouldnt you agree, the majority of those in the Wehrmacht were in pretty good shape? Let alone the SS.

Bren
02-12-2013, 06:30
... am I just a wimp for thinking they might be too heavy?

I've seen small soldiers who just about double their body weight when they put on their normal equipment that every soldier carries - if you think the rifle is heavy, try putting on 100 lbs. of armor, helmet, ammo, rucksack, water, weapons, etc. and walking around in the desert.

Bren
02-12-2013, 06:31
While I was being a bit of a smart ass, I was also referring to the American people of today.

If you look at the old news reels, how many Germans, other than Goring and a few other "officials", looked like the average American of today? Wouldnt you agree, the majority of those in the Wehrmacht were in pretty good shape? Let alone the SS.

Actually, soldiers today are in much better shape and carry a LOT more weight.

PzGren
02-12-2013, 07:36
While I was being a bit of a smart ass, I was also referring to the American people of today.

If you look at the old news reels, how many Germans, other than Goring and a few other "officials", looked like the average American of today? Wouldnt you agree, the majority of those in the Wehrmacht were in pretty good shape? Let alone the SS.

Allow me to be a smartass, and I am pretty good at it:supergrin:. How many SS fighters do/did you know personally?

Bob Hafler
02-12-2013, 07:46
Sniper rifles like every other rifle/weapon and military piece of equipment has progressed through the years, as well as the training. What was then, and what is now it entirely two different things. The US Navy I served in during the VN war can not be compared to the US Navy of WWII, and the VN era US Navy cannot be compared with US Navy of today.
The important thing is the men,there training, and the equipment used during a certain era was enough to get the job done, and they did it very well.

ak103k
02-12-2013, 08:20
Actually, I met one personally back in the late 80's, at of all things, a Hitler birthday party at a German club outside of Philly. He was an acquaintance of a friend of mine, and was brought here by our government after the war to "help" them with some things. There were actually a number of former WWII German soldiers there as well.

They were all very interesting to talk to, and I really wish I could have talked to them more, especially today (I imagine most are dead now), with all whats been going on here of late.

Other than his accent, which really wasnt all that unusual for the area we lived in at the time, the only give away as to his past, was a well worn "honor ring", and an SS shield tattooed on his forearm, which he usually kept covered.

AK_Stick
02-12-2013, 12:18
I've read several books of WWII and Vietnam sniper exploits and in those wars being a sniper involved lots of sneaking around in the woods, long distance infiltration, fieldcraft, etc. A sniper and his spotter alone on a mission for a week or two by themselves on foot, covering a lot of ground to get to their position and back. I just bought a Remington SPS Tactical and it got me to thinking about the typical "sniper rifle" you see today with the 24" big fat bull barrel and massive heavy duty scope that weighs another couple of pounds at least. Arent these way too heavy for the kind of field work our snipers did back then? I know the wars we fight today are almost all urban or even in the desert the snipers are transported in vehicles and even sometimes deploy themselves directly on top of the same vehicle. I just can't see them humping a 15-20lb gun all over hell and back like they used to do. Have we given up that capability or am I just a wimp for thinking they might be too heavy?


Honestly, where do you get your info about how snipers today operate?

They hump those rifles all over the Stan and Iraq. And other than one time in the bleak middle of nowhere desert with no elevation for miles I've never once seen snipers deployed ontop of those giant bullet magnets.

14-20 lbs is about average for a weapon today. Some of the weapons that infantry soldiers carry to the field (m240) weigh nearly 30 lbs unloaded.

PzGren
02-13-2013, 09:07
Back in WWI German Musketiere used scoped hunting rifles successfully as sniper rifles.

Coming back to the subject of superior physical fitness of earlier generations, this is a German Musketier unit that went to Verdun. They may not look impressive but they went through hell. At least one of them came back from hell, my grandpa.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/MusketierRegiment.jpg

He may have lost two wars as a fighting soldier but I have never seen a man more undefeated!

Paul7
02-13-2013, 22:12
When comparing athletes, yes, today's athletes have never been bigger and stronger......

When it comes to the average person's physical fitness, the WW2 generation leaves our current generation in the dust! We have never had a generation so fat and out of shape than we do now. This is a product of what they physically do with themselves.

I live only a few blocks away from a neighborhood baseball field with backstop. After living in this home for about 15 years, I can't honestly say I've ever seen any kids actually using that field for baseball, or any other physical sport. I'd say about every fifth house has a basketball hoop......but, almost none of them ever get used.......ever. (There is one kid that throws some hoops quite a bit......one kid!)

When I was a kid, we almost lived on our bicycles., and had a good idea of our surroundings because we went places........now, these kids only go outside to go to a friends to play video games, and a lot of them don't spend five minutes on a bicycle in their lives.



ooc

Exactly. When I was a kid you had a hard time finding an open baseball field not being used. Can today's kids even catch, throw, or hit?

fnfalman
02-13-2013, 23:20
Sheesh, I was a pig man for a year. An M60 machine gun weighed 23-lbs empty plus ammo and everything else strapped on my 145-lbs, 5ft6 back.

It ain't that hard when you're in shape.

Batesmotel
02-13-2013, 23:34
14-20 lbs is about average for a weapon today. Some of the weapons that infantry soldiers carry to the field (m240) weigh nearly 30 lbs unloaded.

I was a 249 gunner and attached to a scout/sniper team for a while. My job was to escort them to an infil point then pick them up at an exfil point later. even with all their heavy crap I had the largest load.