LEO's: how many rounds/year required for qualification? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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vtducrider
02-12-2013, 09:41
I suspect the requirements vary depending on the agency. But I was shocked to find out that my girlfriend, who works for the US courts, only has to shoot 50 rounds per year with a min score of 40/50 to qualify with her G22. Any shot placement on a silhouette target is a hit. The number was reduced from 100 this year.

Bill Lumberg
02-12-2013, 10:04
Why would you post this here rather than in CT? Qual course is 50 rounds pistol/rifle, less for shotgun, pass required twice a year on all three. Add in required pre-qual/low light/moving and shooting/all three weapons systems and bare minimum you're going to shoot a year with us is in the neighborhood of 280 rounds a year. Most of us shoot far more than that. Don't even get me started on the pistol team or SRT guys. By the case. That said- most folks don't understand the purpose of a qual. The in-depth training happens at the academy and at in-service. Qual is pretty much making sure the officer hasn't lost the basic marksmanship competency required to hold the job. I suspect the requirements vary depending on the agency. But I was shocked to find out that my girlfriend, who works for the US courts, only has to shoot 50 rounds per year with a min score of 40/50 to qualify with her G22. Any shot placement on a silhouette target is a hit. The number was reduced from 100 this year.

Ranger1759
02-12-2013, 10:12
I work for a local dept. and that sounds about right for the yearly quals...however, we have range days scheduled twice a month, one is mandatory, and one is optional.....you decide which one or both you attend....that does not count the "on your own" time at the range, which my dept will sometimes supply the ammo for...we have a pretty open range policy, as long at the local college police academy is not using it, we can use it anytime we want, and shoot anything we want....I even sight in the deer rifles very year before the season...

collim1
02-12-2013, 10:33
Some years we shoot twice in a year, but only once per year is required. 50rds handgun qual, 10rds shotgun qual all stationary firing at a Q target 25-7 yds away.

Pretty sad IMO.

Bill Lumberg
02-12-2013, 10:52
Are the folks at your agency generally qualifying with high scores? Easily passing? These are indicators of whether or not more frequent range time is a necessity. Annuals or semi-annuals aren't about reteaching bicycle operation, rather making sure they remember how to ride. That said, I'm all about more shooting. It's never enough.

mjkeat
02-12-2013, 11:21
I have seen some LEOs that were good shooters. If I was to put a percentage on it I'd say 10% were proficient enough that I wasn't disappointed. Some are downright horrible. As in they couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag or hit a 3'x2' target at 20-30ft. And these are the ones actually putting forth the effort to shoot on their own time. Scary to think of the ones who don't shoot outside of yearly qualification.

Like I've said before it's not entirely their fault. Just like a lot of agencies don't institute physical fitness requirements. It's a budget issue. This is why we see disgustingly overweight officers and dash cam video of officers scrambling as some d-bag slaughters them.

Instead of raising my taxes to feed some entitlement program use them to train our officers CORRECTLY.

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Ryobi
02-12-2013, 11:30
8 or 9 out of 10 would smoke the average non professional gun toter. It's only on the Internet that everyone shoots better than police. Of course, the vast majority don't shoot at public/private ranges. Except for hunting, you'll find them shooting at their agency range. But that still leaves room for web experts to say they know all about LE shooting capability from "some guy" they saw at IDPA or a public range. The real world gap is less significant when it comes to defensive tactics proficiency. Of course, OC and baton help there.

Ranger1759
02-12-2013, 11:49
I totally agree Ryobi, like I said, I work for a small dept. and I would put our officers against anyone in the IDPA scene...they may not win, but the result will be respectable for everyday cops...

mjkeat
02-12-2013, 12:25
Not true but then my perspective is a little different. I am speaking from first had experience through roughly 10 classes a year as a student, classes as an instructor, seeing it multiple times a week, and knowing LEO and other trainers.

From the lead trainer for my states correction and law enforcement program. 10% are proficient, 20% are average, and the rest are clueless. Like I've said I've witnessed this firsthand on a weekly basis.

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ESI
02-12-2013, 16:55
I worked for a security company that required us to qualify four times a year, and we were also required to qualify with the State twice a year. Six quals a year,not bad.

I've also seen Guard types who should never be allowed to carry a firearm and I've seen Security Agents who were highly trained armed professionals.

boomhower
02-12-2013, 20:33
Pistol is 50 rounds day, 50 rounds night. Shotgun 5 buck 5 slug each day and night. 80% to pass. Rifle is 30 rounds day/night with 95 to pass. We qualify once a year with no other training. When we qualify we will do a practice round and shoot a few at a flipper rack but that's it. Our firearms training is well below what I'd like to see.

WoodenPlank
02-12-2013, 20:59
Not true but then my perspective is a little different. I am speaking from first had experience through roughly 10 classes a year as a student, classes as an instructor, seeing it multiple times a week, and knowing LEO and other trainers.

From the lead trainer for my states correction and law enforcement program. 10% are proficient, 20% are average, and the rest are clueless. Like I've said I've witnessed this firsthand on a weekly basis.

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My neighbor growing up was one of the lead firearms instructors for the county, and the DM for the county's version of a SWAT team. He also did a lot of the instruction for several other local agencies, and department of corrections. On top of that, he is one of the best pistol shooters and instructors I have met, but my experience there is a little more limited.

He was also one of the first to speak up and openly say that most cops can't shoot for ****, and many are idiots when it comes to guns. He had countless DoC guards come through that couldn't consistently hit a B25 at 15-20 yards with a Mini-14 fired from the shoulder.

Pier23
02-12-2013, 21:15
Please, please, PLEASE don't take this as a troll, but an honest inquiry.

I gather the quals here being discussed is punching paper?

Are any quals done on a combat course to simulate conditions under which the officer may be required to use a weapon?

WoodenPlank
02-12-2013, 21:18
Please, please, PLEASE don't take this as a troll, but an honest inquiry.

I gather the quals here being discussed is punching paper?

Are any quals done on a combat course to simulate conditions under which the officer may be required to use a weapon?

All the quals I have seen (small agencies) were on a static range with paper targets. I know some larger agencies have nicer setups and may do shoot houses or other types of drills, but I haven't seen them.

High Altitude
02-12-2013, 21:50
If they required all LEO to pass an actual meaningful qualification course, drawing from holster, getting A hits, under the clock etc... most would not pass.

Imagine all LEO having to pass the old air marschall qual........ forget about it, not enough training, not enough LEO who are gun people, desire to do it etc.....

http://www.gunlaws.com/pdf/Air%20Marshall%20Pistol%20Drill.pdf

Federal Air Marshal Qualification Drill with Sig 220 - YouTube

ronin.45
02-12-2013, 22:18
Some years we shoot twice in a year, but only once per year is required. 50rds handgun qual, 10rds shotgun qual all stationary firing at a Q target 25-7 yds away.

Pretty sad IMO.

That's a pretty common qual. Very sad IMO! Some have improved to require movement and barricades, but most would make a weak IDPA stage. Many departments don't require any practice at all. The annual qual is the only shooting many officers do all year.

mjkeat
02-12-2013, 22:29
My neighbor growing up was one of the lead firearms instructors for the county, and the DM for the county's version of a SWAT team. He also did a lot of the instruction for several other local agencies, and department of corrections. On top of that, he is one of the best pistol shooters and instructors I have met, but my experience there is a little more limited.

He was also one of the first to speak up and openly say that most cops can't shoot for ****, and many are idiots when it comes to guns. He had countless DoC guards come through that couldn't consistently hit a B25 at 15-20 yards with a Mini-14 fired from the shoulder.

All while funding goes to entitlement programs. It upsets me that our peace officers don't get the training they need.

C/O-RC
02-12-2013, 23:06
we do 100 rounds each time. 2 day shoots and 1 night low light shoot. 25 to 2 yard line. we cover shooting from barricades standing kneeing strong side and weak side. forward and backward movement to cover. 1 hand shooting and reload drills 80% to pass

Steve in PA
02-12-2013, 23:21
I suspect the requirements vary depending on the agency. But I was shocked to find out that my girlfriend, who works for the US courts, only has to shoot 50 rounds per year with a min score of 40/50 to qualify with her G22. Any shot placement on a silhouette target is a hit. The number was reduced from 100 this year.

First, you are asking a terrible question, or rather a question in a terrible way.

Case law states that "qualification" is not considered training. So asking how many rounds are needed for qualification means nothing.

In my department, we shoot 60 rounds of handgun, 60 rounds of rifle and 10 rounds of shotgun for qualification purposes.

However, we also shoot multiple tactical and stress courses. Each drill or course can be from 10-30+ rounds, depending on the goal of the course.

Bill Lumberg
02-13-2013, 05:09
First, you're wrong. Second, I have not ever encountered a law enforcement agency that did not have a qualification course that required officers to shoot from the holster, under the clock, with graded scoring based on hit quality. I can't say what an "A" hit is, as none of the normal LE qual targets (B27R, Transtar II, etc.) have such a thing. What academy do you work for that you have such first hand across the board knowledge of LE competency and quals? If they required all LEO to pass an actual meaningful qualification course, drawing from holster, getting A hits, under the clock etc... most would not pass.

Imagine all LEO having to pass the old air marschall qual........ forget about it, not enough training, not enough LEO who are gun people, desire to do it etc.....

http://www.gunlaws.com/pdf/Air%20Marshall%20Pistol%20Drill.pdf

Federal Air Marshal Qualification Drill with Sig 220 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4FB8PzR5s)

vafish
02-13-2013, 05:22
8 or 9 out of 10 would smoke the average non professional gun toter. It's only on the Internet that everyone shoots better than police. Of course, the vast majority don't shoot at public/private ranges. Except for hunting, you'll find them shooting at their agency range. But that still leaves room for web experts to say they know all about LE shooting capability from "some guy" they saw at IDPA or a public range. The real world gap is less significant when it comes to defensive tactics proficiency. Of course, OC and baton help there.

All I can speak from is my personal experience.

I walked onto the USSS training range, picked up a Sig p226, a model I had never fired before, and shot their qualification.

The instructor said I out shot 70% of their agents.

I'm a D class USPSA shooter.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.

ronin.45
02-13-2013, 07:47
8 or 9 out of 10 would smoke the average non professional gun toter. It's only on the Internet that everyone shoots better than police. Of course, the vast majority don't shoot at public/private ranges. Except for hunting, you'll find them shooting at their agency range. But that still leaves room for web experts to say they know all about LE shooting capability from "some guy" they saw at IDPA or a public range. The real world gap is less significant when it comes to defensive tactics proficiency. Of course, OC and baton help there.

I think you may be exaggerating that 8 or 9 out of ten, but considering that most "non-professional gun toters" get little to no training, that wouldn't be much to brag about. I get my knowledge from working with many local agencies. The vast majority spend zero time training between quals. It has always amazed me that they aren't willing to spend any time or money to stay proficient. I don't compare a police officer to the average gun owner. I compare them to people who actually try to be competent with a firearm. It's not unreasonable to expect a cop to be at the level of a casual competition shooter. The accuracy requirements alone are a joke in LEO quals. Any hits on a large silhouette count and you can miss 20%! That kind of hit rate wouldn't even get you a ranking in most shooting sports. Missing a full size target on a square range is absolutely unacceptable. If someone can't hit that big target every time with little stress they will not suddenly improve when it's for real.

Ranger1759
02-13-2013, 07:47
All our training and re quals are timed, move and shoot, low ready,holster and multiple weapon drills....yes we do static paper shooting also,but the norm is what we would see on duty....we have one current and one former county SWAT team members on, and we train using many drills from their play book....granted, it is a small dept, in a small Midwest town, but size of the dept shouldn't matter....train like you fight, fight like you train...

Bill Lumberg
02-13-2013, 07:56
Passing scores are considerably harder at most agencies than you've evidently been led to believe. Even gettin all hits on the silhouette won't guarantee a passing score at most places, because the hit value starts at 5 or 10 points for an x ring, and goes down progressively as you travel outward. The only place I've seen anything-in-the-black counts and 80 percent hits equal a pass is a civilian CCW course. I think you may be exaggerating that 8 or 9 out of ten, but considering that most "non-professional gun toters" get little to no training, that wouldn't be much to brag about. I get my knowledge from working with many local agencies. The vast majority spend zero time training between quals. It has always amazed me that they aren't willing to spend any time or money to stay proficient. I don't compare a police officer to the average gun owner. I compare them to people who actually try to be competent with a firearm. It's not unreasonable to expect a cop to be at the level of a casual competition shooter. The accuracy requirements alone are a joke in LEO quals. Any hits on a large silhouette count and you can miss 20%! That kind of hit rate wouldn't even get you a ranking in most shooting sports. Missing a full size target on a square range is absolutely unacceptable. If someone can't hit that big target every time with little stress they will not suddenly improve when it's for real.

brisk21
02-13-2013, 08:42
I work in Corrections and we shoot 15 rounds to qualify once per year. (Glock 22)If we don't qualify, we have up to 50 rounds we can shoot to qualify. What a joke. We also qualify on the shotgun every other year now. (Remington 870) We used to have to qualify with the rifle (mini-14) now we don't have to if we don't want to. Its such a joke.

up1911fan
02-13-2013, 09:12
I work in Corrections and we shoot 15 rounds to qualify once per year. (Glock 22)If we don't qualify, we have up to 50 rounds we can shoot to qualify. What a joke. We also qualify on the shotgun every other year now. (Remington 870) We used to have to qualify with the rifle (mini-14) now we don't have to if we don't want to. Its such a joke.

Agreed. We have the same employer btw.

The Fist Of Goodness
02-13-2013, 09:28
I have seen some LEOs that were good shooters. If I was to put a percentage on it I'd say 10% were proficient enough that I wasn't disappointed. Some are downright horrible. As in they couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag or hit a 3'x2' target at 20-30ft. And these are the ones actually putting forth the effort to shoot on their own time. Scary to think of the ones who don't shoot outside of yearly qualification.

Like I've said before it's not entirely their fault. Just like a lot of agencies don't institute physical fitness requirements. It's a budget issue. This is why we see disgustingly overweight officers and dash cam video of officers scrambling as some d-bag slaughters them.

Instead of raising my taxes to feed some entitlement program use them to train our officers CORRECTLY.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I don't know that your sampling is indicative of all LEOs.

We shoot four times a year, and 90 percent of my agents come to training capable of shooting at least an 80, and a good number shoot a much higher score. The shooters who need the most help are the ones who tell me that they go to the range on their own time. (I have @100 shooters in my field office to train. I would say less than 10 percent are problem shooters, mostly females. I attribute most of the problems to laziness and bad habits).

I have a handful of "gun" guys who shoot regularly on their own time. The vast majority of my shooters only shoot during training.

Regardless of skill, we run the training for a full day and each agent shoots a average of 250 rds.

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mjkeat
02-13-2013, 14:32
The Fist of Goodness, my experience isn't proof of all LEOs/DOCs everywhere. It however is a combination of testimate from multiple individuals w/ a metric ton of experience in and out of the state/country and what I've witnessed during inner-state classes and other range experience as well as dealing w/ local/state LEOs on a one on one basis. When they offer a free spot including ammunition for one sworn LEO each and every class and nobody takes advantage of it it says a lot.

I hope nobody takes my words as a dig or insult as I'm simply appalled that these men and women do not get the assistance they need.

I'm a proponent for training and then more training. I don't feel there is such a thing as to much training for those in harms way.

The Fist Of Goodness
02-13-2013, 17:46
The Fist of Goodness, my experience isn't proof of all LEOs/DOCs everywhere. It however is a combination of testimate from multiple individuals w/ a metric ton of experience in and out of the state/country and what I've witnessed during inner-state classes and other range experience as well as dealing w/ local/state LEOs on a one on one basis. When they offer a free spot including ammunition for one sworn LEO each and every class and nobody takes advantage of it it says a lot.

I hope nobody takes my words as a dig or insult as I'm simply appalled that these men and women do not get the assistance they need.

I'm a proponent for training and then more training. I don't feel there is such a thing as to much training for those in harms way.

I did not take it as a dig. I realize that there can be a great disparity in funding for training from agency to agency. When you mentioned seeing police officers at a private range that were not good shots, my first thought was that, other than the guys who like to shoot, the agents I train who go on their own time are the ones who are poor shooters.

If that is all you see, that could lead to a false impression of the department as a whole.

However, we shoot alot compared to many other departments, and provide an adequate amount of training in those four quarterly sessions that most of my shooters can come to the range capable of shooting a good score.



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mr00jimbo
02-13-2013, 18:13
If you do NOT pass, do you get instruction from your local PD, or are you on your own to get instruction?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's vital for a professional with a gun to shoot it proficiently, but I wouldn't want to see somebody lose their job because they had an off day at the range. A lot of guns up here are DAO, and I've fired some with 12+ pound pulls and very long travel. It's amazing that people hit anything with those.

It would be nice if there was time for cops to go to the range and be trained 1 on 1 on their own time, or during their shift. I imagine that a lot of cops don't shoot often because they do work 12 hour days and have families and other life obligations.

BamaTrooper
02-13-2013, 19:16
Some years we shoot twice in a year, but only once per year is required. 50rds handgun qual, 10rds shotgun qual all stationary firing at a Q target 25-7 yds away.

Pretty sad IMO.

If you are still in AL, you forgot to mention passing is a 70%:faint:

mrsurfboard
02-13-2013, 20:55
In New Jersey, handgun 200 rounds per year, assuming you qualify on the first try. Rifle is 220 rounds per year, again assuming you qualify on the first try. if your off duty weapon is significantly different from your duty weapon, add another 200 rounds for that.

CAcop
02-13-2013, 22:04
Training and qualfication are two different things. Qualfication is a basic test of skill as far as the courts are concerned. Training is what is actually important. Any agency that fails to train and relies on quals only is playing with fire.

For the record we expend about 150 rounds on quals for a day and night pistol qual and a combo day/night rifle course. Training is at least 3 times that for us. Some years several times that. It depends on the drills taught to some extent.

brisk21
02-13-2013, 23:44
Agreed. We have the same employer btw.


Im sorry.:crying:I guess we are getting an officer from Alger pretty soon.

joecoastie
02-14-2013, 08:05
A lot of civilian shooters like to talk about how LEOs should train more often and have tougher qualifications (part of my job is LE and I happen to agree). However, look back to when DHS contracted with Federal for a bunch of ammo, how many people were on GT and other forums wailing about how either DHS was spending too much money on ammo or DHS was part of a conspiracy to take over the world?

Noles26
02-14-2013, 08:58
8 or 9 out of 10 would smoke the average non professional gun toter. It's only on the Internet that everyone shoots better than police. Of course, the vast majority don't shoot at public/private ranges. Except for hunting, you'll find them shooting at their agency range. But that still leaves room for web experts to say they know all about LE shooting capability from "some guy" they saw at IDPA or a public range. The real world gap is less significant when it comes to defensive tactics proficiency. Of course, OC and baton help there.

I think recent events in LA would suggest otherwise.

Shooting at innocent civilians, getting owned by one man.

And let's not forget what happened in NY. How many innocents were hit BEFORE they hit the bad guy? All were shot by police.

It seems when the SHTF, police reactions, thinking, and accuracy are no better than yours or mine in the same situation.

All departments should have STRICTER qualifying requirements. For their own safety and defense, and for ours.

brisk21
02-14-2013, 09:06
A lot of civilian shooters like to talk about how LEOs should train more often and have tougher qualifications (part of my job is LE and I happen to agree). However, look back to when DHS contracted with Federal for a bunch of ammo, how many people were on GT and other forums wailing about how either DHS was spending too much money on ammo or DHS was part of a conspiracy to take over the world?


Well they better buy more than a bunch of .40 cal to take over the world!!:rofl:

cpl.mooney
02-14-2013, 12:49
We are required to qual 4 times a year with our duty pistol (Either a Glock 17,21 or a Colt 45) Shotgun is 2 times a year, Rifle is 4 a year. 80% or better to pass, 50 rounds for pistol. 25 for shotgun, 50 for rifle. Instructors must pass with a 90% or better. Pistol is mostly drawing from the holster in a certain time frame. Timed for shotgun and rifle in various stages of unload and reloads with transitions to pistol. Its a fairly decent qual. Nothing to difficult if you take the time to practice and do plenty of dry firing at home. Those who don't qual don't want too. Which is sad.

bub
02-16-2013, 09:46
As was noted above, a qualification course IS NOT really supposed to be considered training. Qualification is supposed to be a basic competency test ONLY.

Having said that, I am in charge of firearms training (what there is, anyway) in NE OH. OH just changed their qual course, all of 25 rds, longest distance is 50 ft, all standing still, no cover, no night shooting, just shooting. Definitely a step backwards- used to be 60 rds, some move-and-shoot, some night fire. Pathetic.

Bub

CJStudent
02-16-2013, 10:19
I work in corrections at the federal level. Our basic qual is as follows:

Handgun-30 rounds, 3 and 7 yards

Shotgun-5 rounds at 15 yards

Rifle/SMG-30 rounds at 50 yards.

If you are transport/armed escort certified, your qual is harder for the handgun-66 rounds, from 3 to 25 yards, with various position changes, drawing from the holster, etc. Shotgun and SMG quals are the same.

Quals are shot annually.

CJStudent
02-16-2013, 10:20
Please, please, PLEASE don't take this as a troll, but an honest inquiry.

I gather the quals here being discussed is punching paper?

Are any quals done on a combat course to simulate conditions under which the officer may be required to use a weapon?

Basic quals are done punching paper. During the armed escort (transportation) course, we do a "stress course" of fire, still punching paper but a lot more dynamic. They start by PT'ing the dog crap out of you, and keep it up in between strings of fire. You're tired, and a bit shaky. They're also yelling and screaming at you the entire time, you're moving, using cover, etc.

CJStudent
02-16-2013, 10:23
As an aside, though, I will say that firearms skills are a VERY small part of our day to day jobs. The majority of it is how to deal with people, knowledge of law and policy, search skills, etc. Most people into guns don't seem to realize this, or don't seem to care.

ajgranda
02-16-2013, 10:58
When I was on the job, we qualified 2x per year. 50 rds of FMJ just to practice and then 50 rounds of duty ammo JHP to qualify.
Passing score was 80%, I think. If you failed the first time you would go on until you eventually passed. Only saw that happen a few time with a few female officers. Oh yeah, Remington 870 was 1x/year 5 or 6 rounds. I can't remember. We used slugs and 00 buck shot.

When we switched over from revolvers to Glocks we spent a week of training and shot 1K plus rounds.

I should note that in the late 80s and early 90s we qualified only 1x/year. .

mjkeat
02-16-2013, 11:04
As an aside, though, I will say that firearms skills are a VERY small part of our day to day jobs. The majority of it is how to deal with people, knowledge of law and policy, search skills, etc. Most people into guns don't seem to realize this, or don't seem to care.

But when it comes to defense of life you only get one chance. There are no time outs or do-overs. Anytime a firearm is present the possibility is there. I'd rather be prepared than cross my fingers and pray it doesn't happen because I'm ill prepared. Putting the seatbelt on after the accident doesn't help much.