Gear Heads: Input on K&N Air Intake Kits? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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LSUAdman
04-26-2013, 10:52
Okay gear heads - I'd like to hear some opinions. I have an older Jeep, an XJ Cherokee 2000. She still runs like a champ, and I credit that to me taking good care of her, especially in the past few years.

In an effort to get as much umph out of her as possible and to keep her running for another couple of years, I've been upgrading a few parts.

One upgrade I see and hear about often is swapping out the stock air intake with a K&N Cloth Air Intake Kit (K&N 57-1518 Fuel Injection Performance Kit Gen2 Air Intake Kit : Amazon.com : Automotive@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41zmRErT14L.@@AMEPARAM@@41zmRErT14L).

However, recently I've been reading that for the cost, you really don't get any real performance. One or two people have told me recently that the whole thing is a gimmick and not worth the money.

So what's the truth? Useful or not worth it?

For what it's worth - this is for my daily drive vehicle. No off roading, just standard city driving.

farnorthwintercamper
04-26-2013, 11:09
Cert. mechanic here.. Have built a ton of serious motors through the yrs.

You asked....

All hat no cattle....

knightkrawler00
04-26-2013, 11:12
Unless you've done other upgrades to the engine and the stock air box is now a restriction, the gains aren't really worth it.

If you really want that style of air filter, look into S&B. A lot better quality.

elsolo
04-26-2013, 11:13
If your car/truck is faster, it's because your wallet is lighter.

stolenphot0
04-26-2013, 11:14
From what I have read and understand the benefits on newer cars is short lived, as the computer adjusts for the increased air.

farnorthwintercamper
04-26-2013, 11:16
Well... Let us be fair, There is an increase... A increase in noise.

XshooterX
04-26-2013, 11:22
What other mods are you doing? Freeing up the intake is one of those things that can be a complete waste of time and money, or an absolute necessity depending on what else you are sound to the engine. My guess is that you don't need it. But I don't know what else you've done.


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Kawabuggy
04-26-2013, 11:23
Can't speak from experience with use on cars, but in the dirtbike world people say that they DO flow more air at the expense of allowing more dirt to get through the filter & into your engine.

NO ONE that I know that rides dirt bikes uses, or recommends using, K&N for this sport.

Cars & trucks? I'd save my money and put it towards headers and/or cat back exhaust, or just a freer flowing exhaust system. That will probably see a bigger improvement in horsepower than a performance air filter.

XshooterX
04-26-2013, 11:23
^^^sound = doing ^^^


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Adjuster
04-26-2013, 11:24
Nothing wrong with more good clean air but why pay for the K&N name brand. Plenty of quality no name intakes on Ebay and many people build their own. And I have heard many complaints concerning the additional unexpected noise of any aftermarket intake.


/



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Copake
04-26-2013, 11:25
DON'T DO IT. Complete BS that the engine will "breath better" allowing more power. At less than wide open throttle AND max rpm, will make absolutely no difference.
They are MUCH louder.
They are OILED filters -- and there are too many reports of Mass Airflow Sensors and other intake parts being gunked up.

LSUAdman
04-26-2013, 11:38
Okay, looks like I dodged a bullet on this one.

I'm not into performance boosting - just keeping the old girl running nice and happily for as long as possible. If all this is going to do is turn money into noise, then I'm definitely gonna skip out on it.

Big thanks everyone!

G36's Rule
04-26-2013, 11:42
Surprising thread, and I agree. K&N filters are good for one thing... Separating folks from their money.

HollowHead
04-26-2013, 11:45
Someone told me (I can't confirm it) that the Allison autos on GM trucks go out with air filter changes. Something about the MAF sensor triggering the shift points...HH

07 LMB Z06
04-26-2013, 12:03
DON'T DO IT. Complete BS that the engine will "breath better" allowing more power. At less than wide open throttle AND max rpm, will make absolutely no difference.
They are MUCH louder.
They are OILED filters -- and there are too many reports of Mass Airflow Sensors and other intake parts being gunked up.

In K&N's defense (and any other quality brand of oiled filters for that matter) that is probably more a result of user error than the actual product. The filter needs a light coat of oil; it doesn't need to be dripping wet. Over-oiling is usually the cause of the sensor issues.

When I bought my car two years ago the previous owner had already installed an AFE intake. It had no issues up to that point, and it has had none for my two years of ownership. I have cleaned and oiled the filters four times.

A side benefit is a change in the exhaust note. It's not rice-burner loud by any means. It's slightly louder at low rpms until the exhaust flap closes and slightly louder at the higher end when it opens back up. Another guy I know has the same car I do but he put straight pipes on his. I've gotten many compliments on my exhaust note and I hear from others that his sounds terrible. The point is, absolute statements such as the two bolded above are not always accurate.

Power gains will vary depending on the intake and your particular setup, but as others have said your factory intake is probably optimized for your stock engine. Unless you are doing other mods, gains will probably be minimal (single digits) to nonexistent.

knightkrawler00
04-26-2013, 12:06
I've been around the Duramax/Allison since '01, never heard of a MAF failure smoking the transmission. I've put a lot of oiled filters on Diesels, lower EGT's being the goal, and the only transmission failures I've seen on them were due to the other power adders.

Adjuster
04-26-2013, 12:12
Just get the tornado. Everyone knows that spinning air is better air.

http://tornadoair.com/


/

Big_Grumpy
04-26-2013, 12:16
I've bought just the filters before, but never an intake kit. My reasoning was that if it flows a little better, great. Also you can wash them out and re-use them when they get dirty instead of buying new filters, which might save you some money in the long run.

As far as performance increases, very negligible on the stock motors I've used them on.

OdinIII
04-26-2013, 12:22
Just get the tornado. Everyone knows that spinning air is better air.

http://tornadoair.com/


/

I was riding to the store with a guy from work while he was bragging about his increased mileage because of the "tornado" he had installed in his and his wife's car. A few minutes later his phone rings and his Wife is at the dealer and tells him that the mechanic says that the "tornado" is the problem and they had removed it. His whole attitude about the tornado changed after that. I bet the increased mileage was imagined also.

OdinIII
04-26-2013, 12:24
Many young guys at my work remove their factory cold air intake ducts which pull in cool outside air and replace it with an under hood "cold air intake" which pulls in hot air. I've never really understood that.

MtBaldy
04-26-2013, 12:31
I've built some hopped up cars over the years. At one point a K&N filter was an automatic upgrade when you were building for power. I think they might provide a small increase in power at wide open throttle on a modified engine flowing more air than it did from the factory. On an unmodified daily driver there's probably no increase, except in noise, and you get to clean and re-oil them. I haven't used one in decades.

PVolk
04-26-2013, 12:47
In my experience, the intake kits don't make a large enough difference on any naturally aspirated engine to justify the cost. You won't feel the power increase with normal driving for two reasons. 1) It's such a small increase and 2) the majority of power gains are near redline where most of us spend little time driving.

I would, however, suggest a K&N replacement element for your OEM airbox. They are much cheaper and are much less of a restriction than the OE paper elements. I would look at this as quality general maintainence rather than a performance upgrade though.

vart
04-26-2013, 13:02
http://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/228514-my-c55-dyno-results-stock-filters-vs-k-ns.html


I know there are several options for air filters (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=air+filter) on any of our cars. Personally I've always used K&N on everything I've owned since 1991, with great results.

This past weekend I had my C55 dyno tested and was most displeased to open up the air boxes and find clogged FRAM filters in there.

1st pull through the FRAMs yielded 298.85 rwhp and 309.96 rwtq.

2nd pull after removing the panel filters and simply putting a K&N universal cone filter over the MAF sensor (http://www.ebay.com/sch/eBay-Motors-/6000/i.html?_nkw=maf+sensor) to prevent any debris from entering the engine, yielded 309.59 rwhp and 323.56 rwtq. I'm pleased with these numbers!
These are SAE corrected numbers. The un-corrected numbers were higher.

We also tested another C55 with stock replacement K&N panel filters and the car increased 8 rwhp over the stock filters.
This is definitely worth the $100 spent for two K&N's, and knowing I won't have to buy other air filters (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=air+filter) for the car ever again.



Read more: http://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/228514-my-c55-dyno-results-stock-filters-vs-k-ns.html#ixzz2Rb6eS2I6[/QUOTE]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13245

[QUOTE]There you have it! Gains across the board for all of these drop-in filters. Each filter making about 5 peak hp more than the factory filter and torque not changing at all really. Once we get these runs over layed onto the stock baseline run you will be able to see that the hp gains are throughout the powerband and really show in the higher rpm range. ( Should have that here tomorrow forgot it at the Dyno )

Along with the nice little HP gain, you can definitely hear the engine much more and you get a bit more throttle response. I will see if my mpg's improve, as well, which we could possibly see.

We have the K&N in our Red FR-S and the aFe Dry element in our Silver FR-S for long term studies, ok well medium term until more upgrades are done. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

I'd say money well spent for such an easy improvement for your car!

kiole
04-26-2013, 13:15
I've read horror stories of K&N filters letting fine dust through the filter on offroad performance vehicles. I've read it enough times that I pass.

For a stock vehicle is probably just keep buying oem or oem equivalent filters.

ilgunguygt
04-26-2013, 13:19
Surprising thread, and I agree. K&N filters are good for one thing... Separating folks from their money.
ASE Master Tech here, and what I always tell people about things like this, or the "tornado" air system, is that they do exactly what they are designed to do. They take money from your wallet and put it in someone else's.:rofl:


edit: its also good to mention that if you put a K&N filter in your vehicle and oil the crap out of it like people tell you too, you will stand a good chance of crapping your MAF. I cant tell you how many times I have seen a car roll in the shop with that exact situation.

PVolk
04-26-2013, 13:31
I've read horror stories of K&N filters letting fine dust through the filter on offroad performance vehicles. I've read it enough times that I pass.
K&N filters trap debris as small as 1 micron. What harm could incredibly small traces of sub-1 micron dust cause to a running combustion engine? I've ran an open turbo (no filter) on the street for over a year with no negative affects, so the last thing I would be worried about is small amounts of harmless stuff that get's by any filter.

OdinIII
04-26-2013, 13:38
K&N filters trap debris as small as 1 micron. What harm could incredibly small traces of sub-1 micron dust cause to a running combustion engine?


I once had a 1996 CBR 600F3 motorcycle that had a K&N in it when I bought it. While checking the jetting I looked at the filter and below the filter there was a thick layer of dust inside the air box. Maybe this dust had stuck there because of the oil and would have normally went on through the engine but I decided then that I would stick with a paper filter.

Atlas
04-26-2013, 13:47
"the Tornado.." :rofl:

How was that spinning vortex of air ever supposed to make it thru the intake and past the intake valves into the combustion chamber?

.

Omologato
04-26-2013, 14:10
"the Tornado.." :rofl:

How was that spinning vortex of air ever supposed to make it thru the intake and past the intake valves into the combustion chamber?

.

It spins fast enough that it actually propels the air past those pesky, velocity inducing, long intake runners that ruin performance and gas mileage. Those intake valves definitely don't cause any swirling with their semi rounded head leading to a strong vacuum with a domed combustion chamber or riveted pistons, only Vortex can do that. Plus, spinning the air faster in circles helps distribute and atomize the gas from high pressure injectors that are inadequate unless you put a metal obstruction in your intake. It helps your MAF read better too by making site all of the air molecules move past it! I wish I had one.. I've thought about replacing my crap factory turbo for it seeing that it won't back up my exhaust and can breather better...


:D


For the OP, don't bother with a cone filter from any manufacturer, even if it comes with an isolating box underhood. To put the tombstone on this beaten horses corpse, unless your planning on hot rodding or putting money into performance, stick with a drop in. If you do get a K&N, just follow the oiling instructions, not some oaf on the interwebz. It will save you money in the long run.

I drive a Mitsubishi Evolution X and have a K&N cone filter, but I also have exhaust, larger intercooler piping, a larger intercooler, and running 4 more PSI than a factory car does. My filter makes s world of difference over stock (20HP peak, 45HP at 6500 RPMs). The torque is higher throughout the entire operating range as well. For me, it is a must in my car and set up. Cleaning is easy, I have 65k on the car, I've been running this setup some 1.5k miles, and I've had 0 MAF problems after 4 cleanings and some days in the dirt. Realistically, to each their own; some products work better on some vehicles than others will.


Rogue Nation

method
04-26-2013, 14:17
I have a 2002 Pathfinder I've been driving a few months that I did a cat back exhaust and K&N intake on. Did I get more power? Seems like it, but more importantly, the intake allows for better engine response and a better voice. I'm pleased with it.

M&P15T
04-26-2013, 14:23
You get different benefits with CAIs and replacement filter elements with different vehicles. On some vehicles, that were designed with restrictive engine intake systems, with the restriction in the intake system or at the filter element, a K&N (or other) CAI or filter can help.

But current vehicles have much, much better intake systems. On my 2012 5.0 Mustand, a CAI does nothing. In fact, most of what people call CAIs are really not cold air intakes at all, because they allow hot under-hood temps to raise the IATs. On my car, the stock intake actually is a CAI, because it draws atmosphere from outside of the engine bay.

And, on the current Mustang, the stock air-filter actually flows better than the K&N replacement filter.

But, an older vehicle may actually see some benefit from either a CAI or replacement filter.

Atlas
04-26-2013, 15:15
Almost as effective as "throttle-body spacers", right?


.

Mr KV
04-26-2013, 15:19
Not a K&N fan.

Omologato
04-26-2013, 15:27
Almost as effective as "throttle-body spacers", right?


.

Legitimate on a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP; only the rubber ones however. They eliminate faster heat soak from the supercharger onto the TB, aka, lower IATs.

Rogue Nation

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 15:31
Okay gear heads - I'd like to hear some opinions. I have an older Jeep, an XJ Cherokee 2000. She still runs like a champ, and I credit that to me taking good care of her, especially in the past few years.

In an effort to get as much umph out of her as possible and to keep her running for another couple of years, I've been upgrading a few parts.

One upgrade I see and hear about often is swapping out the stock air intake with a K&N Cloth Air Intake Kit (K&N 57-1518 Fuel Injection Performance Kit Gen2 Air Intake Kit : Amazon.com : Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/57-1518-Fuel-Injection-Performance-Intake/dp/B000AP8ENU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1JO74HO7JXXGL&coliid=I2PAUSP06FPFAU)).

However, recently I've been reading that for the cost, you really don't get any real performance. One or two people have told me recently that the whole thing is a gimmick and not worth the money.

So what's the truth? Useful or not worth it?

For what it's worth - this is for my daily drive vehicle. No off roading, just standard city driving.
Cold Air intakes are a complete waste of money, I have tons of experience working on Jeeps as Crawling and Mudding my Rubicon is all i do, Don't waste your money on a K&N Intake. The HP you will gain is towards the higher part of the rpm range, Completely useless since off roaders need more power in the lower range! Save your money!

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 15:33
Complete waste of money!

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 15:42
K&N filters trap debris as small as 1 micron. What harm could incredibly small traces of sub-1 micron dust cause to a running combustion engine? I've ran an open turbo (no filter) on the street for over a year with no negative affects, so the last thing I would be worried about is small amounts of harmless stuff that get's by any filter.
It's a proven fact that K&N and other high flow filters trap less dirt then factory filters, You CANNOT have more air flow and trap more dirt at the same time, Your going to sacrifice one over the other!

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 15:44
K&N filters trap debris as small as 1 micron. What harm could incredibly small traces of sub-1 micron dust cause to a running combustion engine? I've ran an open turbo (no filter) on the street for over a year with no negative affects, so the last thing I would be worried about is small amounts of harmless stuff that get's by any filter.
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html (http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html)

PVolk
04-26-2013, 15:57
It's a proven fact that K&N and other high flow filters trap less dirt then factory filters, You CANNOT have more air flow and trap more dirt at the same time, Your going to sacrifice one over the other!
Of course they trap less. Flow VS. filtering. More of one is less of the other. My point in my previous post is that they still filter more than the engine requires. Just because 1.5% more dust makes it through a more free-flowing filter element doesn't mean that equates to anything negative.

vart
04-26-2013, 16:15
K&N air filters and other similar styles do help the motor produce more power. I have provided links to actual dyno tests that show this.

The naysayers have done nothing more than bloviate... Sounds like a Napa store full of old codgers in here making fun of that new-fangled fule injection... Please provide data that shows K&N filters do not increase horsepower.

OdinIII
04-26-2013, 16:28
I think most people are just saying that to them the small increase in power isn't worth the cost and possible damage from dust and oil contamination.

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 16:40
Of course they trap less. Flow VS. filtering. More of one is less of the other. My point in my previous post is that they still filter more than the engine requires. Just because 1.5% more dust makes it through a more free-flowing filter element doesn't mean that equates to anything negative.
In one test i found they ran a AC Delco and K&N Filter against each other, The AC Delco ran for 60 minutes on their test machine and the K&N ran for 20 minutes, In that time frame the K&N Air Filter allowed 18 Times the amount of dirt that the Ac Delco allowed and Plugged up nearly 3 times faster! Now if you allowed the K&N filter to run for 60 minutes the same that the AC Delco filter ran the K&N filter would have allowed up to 54 Times the amount of dirt pass through it!

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 16:43
K&N air filters and other similar styles do help the motor produce more power. I have provided links to actual dyno tests that show this.

The naysayers have done nothing more than bloviate... Sounds like a Napa store full of old codgers in here making fun of that new-fangled fule injection... Please provide data that shows K&N filters do not increase horsepower.
I posted proof that Factory filters are superior to K&N filters!Putting a K&N Cold Air intake on a jeep is pointless, Jeeps are not made to go fast, Their made to rule the off road and since their not as efficient at trapping dust/dirt as stock filters it defeats the purpose of having one on a off road vehicle which is designed to be exposed to off road environments. Im pretty sure the engineers who designed these motors know what the heck their doing!

DanaT
04-26-2013, 16:49
What happens if i put a turbo muffler and a k&n air filer on?

What does a power kit do for me? I have seen claims of a 71hp increase just from bolting on the power kit.


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DanaT
04-26-2013, 16:50
What happens if i put a turbo muffler and a k&n air filer on?

What does a power kit do for me? I have seen claims of a 71hp increase just from bolting on the power kit.

What about putting a power kit, k&n air filter and a turbo muffler on?

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PVolk
04-26-2013, 17:42
In one test i found they ran a AC Delco and K&N Filter against each other, The AC Delco ran for 60 minutes on their test machine and the K&N ran for 20 minutes, In that time frame the K&N Air Filter allowed 18 Times the amount of dirt that the Ac Delco allowed and Plugged up nearly 3 times faster! Now if you allowed the K&N filter to run for 60 minutes the same that the AC Delco filter ran the K&N filter would have allowed up to 54 Times the amount of dirt pass through it!
And I'm sure these tests are about as accurate and consistant as political polls... That would explain how the free-flowing filter cloggs up quicker.

Like I said, I've ran an entire year with zero air filter and there was zero engine damage. Trapping everything just isn't that important. But what is important in some applications, is removing restriction and letting the engine breathe better. Maybe not your Jeep, but I know I wouldn't consider sticking a paper element on the compressor inlet of my turbo running 50 psi boost.

JW1178
04-26-2013, 18:34
Gearhead, auto tech, car forum junkie here:

Depends on the vehicle and depends on the kit.

Vehicles: Some vehicles have already very good air box designs. Some do not. For many vehicles a slip in panel K&N is your best bet. For some, the air box has a lot of restriction and you'll notice a difference going to the kit.

Kits: Some are much better than others. Some cheap kits are cheap, and can cause problems. For instance, I laugh at people who take out the airbox to put in one of those cones. Great, now you are sucking hot air off the exhaust manifold and/or radiator. Some kits the oil can get on the MAF and other sensors and cause problems, sometimes destroying the sensor. I have seen engine's destroyed from those kits, such as a full race kit that pulls air from under the car, car hit a deep puddle and it sucked up the water, hello HYDROLOCK.

K&N on your Jeep I think would work, it's a good kit and the Jeep is a little restrictive.

I have a K&N on my truck, just a slip in filter. Don't know about power but it last longer and the stock filter is 2/3 the cost of the K&N so why not.

TIP: When cleaning, they only need a little oil, they don't need to be soaking. If they are saturated the oil will just end up on the sensors.

hpracing007
04-26-2013, 18:38
I've had a K&N drop in on my integra for over 100k miles, cleaned and oiled yearly.

Quarter mile times were no different. There is dust inside the intake tubing (meaning I don't think it filters that well). I've saved money over buying paper filters (on my car they are like $25!) but wouldn't do it again. Kind of a pain to clean, messy.

sputnik767
04-26-2013, 19:23
http://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/228514-my-c55-dyno-results-stock-filters-vs-k-ns.html


I know there are several options for air filters (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=air+filter) on any of our cars. Personally I've always used K&N on everything I've owned since 1991, with great results.

This past weekend I had my C55 dyno tested and was most displeased to open up the air boxes and find clogged FRAM filters in there.

1st pull through the FRAMs yielded 298.85 rwhp and 309.96 rwtq.

2nd pull after removing the panel filters and simply putting a K&N universal cone filter over the MAF sensor (http://www.ebay.com/sch/eBay-Motors-/6000/i.html?_nkw=maf+sensor) to prevent any debris from entering the engine, yielded 309.59 rwhp and 323.56 rwtq. I'm pleased with these numbers!
These are SAE corrected numbers. The un-corrected numbers were higher.

We also tested another C55 with stock replacement K&N panel filters and the car increased 8 rwhp over the stock filters.
This is definitely worth the $100 spent for two K&N's, and knowing I won't have to buy other air filters (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=air+filter) for the car ever again.



Read more: http://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/228514-my-c55-dyno-results-stock-filters-vs-k-ns.html#ixzz2Rb6eS2I6

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13245





By my math, you gained a roughly 5% HP and 4% torque by swapping a crappy and clogged Fram filter to a clean K&N filter, if my understanding of your post is correct. Besides the fact that 5% is negligible, had you put in a high quality (not Fram) new paper filter and compared to K&N, the overall HP boost would have been even less, if any at all. I fail to see how this is a worthwhile "upgrade."

JK Freak
04-26-2013, 19:31
And I'm sure these tests are about as accurate and consistant as political polls... That would explain how the free-flowing filter cloggs up quicker.
The testing equipment and standards used is the exact same used by Ford,GM,Chrysler,Etc. Their extremely accurate
ISO 5011 Test:
The ISO 5011 Standard (formerly SAE J726) defines a precise filter test using precision measurements under controlled conditions. Temperature & humidity of the test dust and air used in the test are strictly monitored and controlled. As Arlen learned in attempting his own tests, there are many variables that can adversely affect filter test results. A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams.
To obtain an accurate measure of filter efficiency, it’s critical to know the EXACT amount of test dust being fed into the filter during the test. By following the ISO 5011 standard, a filter tested in Germany can be compared directly compared to another filter tested 5 years later in Rhode Island. The ISO 5011 filter test data for each filter is contained in two test reports; Capacity-Efficiency and Flow Restriction.

porschedog
04-26-2013, 19:31
I have a K&N cold air induction on my Jeep

My butt Dyno says it has ten more horsepower
It does sound great, so I am happy.

gTWO
04-26-2013, 21:26
The K&N filter will let grit past the filter element, no matter how often you clean them, no matter how much oil you put on. (I had so much oil in the intake that it *captured* the grit that got past. I suppose that's a GOOD thing...)

vart
04-26-2013, 22:40
[quote=vart;20222905]http://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/228514-my-c55-dyno-results-stock-filters-vs-k-ns.html



By my math, you gained a roughly 5% HP and 4% torque by swapping a crappy and clogged Fram filter to a clean K&N filter, if my understanding of your post is correct. Besides the fact that 5% is negligible, had you put in a high quality (not Fram) new paper filter and compared to K&N, the overall HP boost would have been even less, if any at all. I fail to see how this is a worthwhile "upgrade."

You selectively chose one example I gave and ignored the rest. The examples I used were the first few found on a google search.

So, either you don't understand the law of averages, or you simply dislike K&N filters and purposely chose to misrepresent the data...:dunno:

I don't care if you don't like K&N filters and don't use them. But I do care about the truth, which the anti K&N people seem to be ignoring...

vart
04-26-2013, 22:46
The K&N filter will let grit past the filter element, no matter how often you clean them, no matter how much oil you put on. (I had so much oil in the intake that it *captured* the grit that got past. I suppose that's a GOOD thing...)

I have had a K&N filter in my 2012 Ford Fusion since new and it now has 62k miles on it. I just washed and re-oiled the filter last week for the first time and did not see any "grit" in my airbox.

Perhaps I should have over-oiled it like you did...:upeyes:

HollowHead
04-26-2013, 22:47
A sixty dollar air filter that can be washed and reused three times in the equivalent time as three forty dollar disposable and unwashable OEM filters is good economy. It really isn't that hard to understand. HH

tenforme
04-26-2013, 23:01
I have been building and racing cars and bikes for 40 years and have worked with high end automotive OEM's and race teams for 12 years. My close friends at a major European sports car company tell me that K&N's are great but they cant use them because of noise regs' and evaporative emission losses when the motor is turned off. They expect 40-60% of their vehicles to have K&N's, BMC or PiperCross filters fitted as soon as their cars leave the dealership.

I have K&N's on all my vehicles and have only good things to say about them. They make bay far the most additional HP on turbo motors but you can get useful gains on NA motors - particularly high rpm units like I4 race bike motors.

I have 138,000 miles on a much abused and moderately tuned (430 WHP) Mitsubishi VR4 which has seen a LOT of track time. It still pulls like a train and has never had the heads off and burns zero oil.

I also have an EVO IX MR which also makes ~400WHP at 27lb/in2 of boost at 8200RPM. It has been thrashed for 87,000 miles and spent some time as my track-day coaching car. It burns zero oil and runs as good as it did when I first got it.

DanaT
04-27-2013, 00:51
I have been building and racing cars and bikes for 40 years and have worked with high end automotive OEM's and race teams for 12 years. My close friends at a major European sports car company tell me that K&N's are great but they cant use them because of noise regs' and evaporative emission losses when the motor is turned off. They expect 40-60% of their vehicles to have K&N's, BMC or PiperCross filters fitted as soon as their cars leave the dealership.

I have K&N's on all my vehicles and have only good things to say about them. They make bay far the most additional HP on turbo motors but you can get useful gains on NA motors - particularly high rpm units like I4 race bike motors.

I have 138,000 miles on a much abused and moderately tuned (430 WHP) Mitsubishi VR4 which has seen a LOT of track time. It still pulls like a train and has never had the heads off and burns zero oil.

I also have an EVO IX MR which also makes ~400WHP at 27lb/in2 of boost at 8200RPM. It has been thrashed for 87,000 miles and spent some time as my track-day coaching car. It burns zero oil and runs as good as it did when I first got it.

So what I hear is that I will gain 100hp if I run out and buy a K&N!!! Whoo hoo. 100hp for $150.... good deal!

M&P15T
04-27-2013, 04:42
K&N air filters and other similar styles do help the motor produce more power. I have provided links to actual dyno tests that show this.

The naysayers have done nothing more than bloviate... Sounds like a Napa store full of old codgers in here making fun of that new-fangled fule injection... Please provide data that shows K&N filters do not increase horsepower.

Once again, that may or may not be true, depending on the car.

With current generation 5.0 Mustangs, the factory filters flow better, and provide slightly higher (dyno tested) HP/TQ numbers than the K&Ns. I had a K&N filter in mine, read the facts, and the drove to my local dealer and grabbed a factory filter to replace it with.

The fact is, that in certain vehicles, the intake and filtrations systems from the factory are the best, unless you do other engine mods that require more incoming atmosphere.

Another dyno proven fact with the current 5.0s, is that "CAIs" provide no additional power (unless coupled with other intake and exhaust mods), nor do they supply the motor with cold air. In fact, most CAI systems actually increase intake air temps.

I have, however, heard that there are true CAI systems, ones that are not exposed to under-hood temps, are insulated, and actually draw true cold air. So, I'm going to have to search for those.

sputnik767
04-27-2013, 07:18
[quote=sputnik767;20223882]

You selectively chose one example I gave and ignored the rest. The examples I used were the first few found on a google search.

So, either you don't understand the law of averages, or you simply dislike K&N filters and purposely chose to misrepresent the data...:dunno:

I don't care if you don't like K&N filters and don't use them. But I do care about the truth, which the anti K&N people seem to be ignoring...

Well, when you post a 5% improvement with K&N over a crappy and clogged paper filter, what kind of response do you expect? Even if the 5% claim was true across the board for the average vehicle going from a clean paper filter to a K&N filter, the difference is negligible and any improvement you actually feel is in your head. Or maybe from the weight reduction due to a lighter wallet.

Speaking of misrepresenting the data, let's see some data on average vehicles like a civic or corolla. Seems that you are the one misrepresenting the data, claiming the law of averages based on the couple of cars that are far from average.

badge315
04-27-2013, 07:29
A K&N intake or replacement filter are one of the de rigueur mods for Bronco enthusiasts that I associate with. I don't know if the filter alone makes much difference, but combined with mods that increase flow at the exhaust end such as headers, straight pipes, etc., they can't hurt. And they come with a cool sticker...which everyone knows increases HP. :supergrin:

DanaT
04-27-2013, 07:35
To really feel a change in power, I have it takes about 10% before you can definitively feel it.

I am not talking about posting a higher trap speed in a 1/4 and measuring, I am talking about feeling it.

Most people put on a louder exhaust and intake and think thy are faster. In general at the strip the newer cars stock and with these mods run the same trap speeds as stock.

Gaining 5 to 10 mph consistently means you really have a change.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

DanaT
04-27-2013, 07:39
A K&N intake or replacement filter are one of the de rigueur mods for Bronco enthusiasts that I associate with. I don't know if the filter alone makes much difference, but combined with mods that increase flow at the exhaust end such as headers, straight pipes, etc., they can't hurt. And they come with a cool sticker...which everyone knows increases HP. :supergrin:

The sticker that I think makes a car faster simply says "S"


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

PVolk
04-27-2013, 14:33
The K&N filter will let grit past the filter element, no matter how often you clean them, no matter how much oil you put on. (I had so much oil in the intake that it *captured* the grit that got past. I suppose that's a GOOD thing...)
Even if that were true, I say "so what?".

Its somewhat entertaining to see people being concerned with the cleanliness of the intake tract, all the while running an EGR system. Restricting air volume and cylinder filling with a paper element for the sake of capturing 2% more 1-micron sized dust. All for the sake of believing that the intact is cleaner and that will make some positive difference somehow - while ignoring the fact that the EGR system is cycling combustion gasses, unburnt fuel, and carbon back through the same intake tract and causing far more filthyness and build-up than a very thin layer of dust from a less restrictive filter element.

SevenSixtyTwo
04-28-2013, 07:25
Many young guys at my work remove their factory cold air intake ducts which pull in cool outside air and replace it with an under hood "cold air intake" which pulls in hot air. I've never really understood that.

It's all about the sticker man! You put the cool little sticker on your window and everyone marvels at the high performance upgrade you think you've done to your ride!:tongueout:

tenforme
04-28-2013, 10:50
So what I hear is that I will gain 100hp if I run out and buy a K&N!!! Whoo hoo. 100hp for $150.... good deal!

You didn't hear that from me or are you just being ignorant and trying to trivialize what I wrote?

Jeezus it really is like talking to a bunch of old codgers in a NAPA store in here - and the irony is that I'm probably on of the oldest in here :tongueout:

GVFlyer
04-28-2013, 12:09
I think K&N's effectiveness depends on the application. They would do nada on our BMWs, but work great on our Honda S2000.

Atlas
04-28-2013, 12:14
... while ignoring the fact that the EGR system is cycling combustion gasses, unburnt fuel, and carbon back through the same intake tract and causing far more filthyness and build-up than a very thin layer of dust from a less restrictive filter element.


At a glance, I'd think that unburnt fuel and carbon passed into the combustion chamber would be FAR less harmful than a continuous stream of tiny silica particles. To my knowledge, carbon is not very abrasive.

Omologato
04-28-2013, 13:03
You didn't hear that from me or are you just being ignorant and trying to trivialize what I wrote?

Jeezus it really is like talking to a bunch of old codgers in a NAPA store in here - and the irony is that I'm probably on of the oldest in here :tongueout:

First off, thumbs up to you for the street and track Mitsubishi's (in the same boat, turbo Mitsu FTW). Secondly, as said by many youth, haters gon'hate. I feel your pain, this is like trying to talk to a leftist ****** bag into accepting that *SOME* applications for a proposal are good in *SOME* situations.

And yes, I am comparing close minded K&N haters to gun haters. Both love to use ad absurdum, straw man, and band wagon to argue their point.

At any point, did tenforme say K&N or you're stupid? Then why is the opposite being used? Use your damn judgement before posting or educate yourself on different performance applications before bashing a gear-head motor racing enthusiast.

/rant

Rogue Nation

DanaT
04-28-2013, 13:35
You didn't hear that from me or are you just being ignorant and trying to trivialize what I wrote?

Jeezus it really is like talking to a bunch of old codgers in a NAPA store in here - and the irony is that I'm probably on of the oldest in here :tongueout:

No, its simply I dont believe you.

My close friends at a major European sports car company tell me that K&N's are great but they cant use them because of noise regs' and evaporative emission losses when the motor is turned off. They expect 40-60% of their vehicles to have K&N's, BMC or PiperCross filters fitted as soon as their cars leave the dealership.

well, considering that there are 2, maybe 3, "major European sports car companies" (those being Porsche and Ferrari...you could maybe put lotus and/or Lamborghini as the third..but "major" is debatable), I highly doubt that 40-60% of the cars get these airfilters within 20k miles let alone as soon as they leave the dealership. In fact, you can probably go look at almost any 996/986/997/987/991/981 and I bet you wont find more than 5% with an aftermarket air-filter and that is more time than "as soon as they leave the dealership"




I have K&N's on all my vehicles and have only good things to say about them. They make bay far the most additional HP on turbo motors but you can get useful gains on NA motors - particularly high rpm units like I4 race bike motors.

How many turbo cars will see a TRUE 10+hp just by replacing an air filter?

Now, combining the two, lets say you take your european turbo sports car. Lets say a 911 Turbo. Good example, huh? Do you really think on a $150k+ the engineers can't make an airfilter that competes with a $100 aftermarket airfilter? If there was simply 30hp to be gained with an airfilter, do you not think they could add $200 to the price for another 30hp or do you think that $200 would break the bank they wouldnt have customers?

DanaT
04-28-2013, 13:38
And yes, I am comparing close minded K&N haters to gun haters. Both love to use ad absurdum, straw man, and band wagon to argue their point.

On a 300hp car, how many mbar difference in pressure differential needs to be made to get a 15hp increase?

Adjuster
04-28-2013, 13:59
Seems like very little cost for increased horsepower!

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=K%26N+sticker&_sacat=0&_from=R40


/

nikerret
04-28-2013, 14:04
In two 2012 Tahoe PPV's, replacement of the filter alone to a K&N gained 1-3 MPG on any given day. They also gained a higher top speed easier with the K&N versus the stock paper filter.

SevenSixtyTwo
04-28-2013, 14:10
Ultra high performance air filter yet, "any off road use" or "racing" or "illegal use" among other common activities or applications will void the warranty?

http://www.knfilters.com/warranty.htm

How long does it take to remove, clean and reinstall one versus buying a new $14 paper media Purolator?

Omologato
04-28-2013, 14:24
On a 300hp car, how many mbar difference in pressure differential needs to be made to get a 15hp increase?

What's the displacement, what's the VE, what altitude, what is the ambient air temp, what is the IC core rated to flow? What hotside is in place, how big is the turbine being used... Give me any and all of those for a REAL WORLD answer, not make believe utopia for cars and people.
Also, don't forget to post a compressor map please.

Rogue Nation

hpracing007
04-28-2013, 14:24
Ultra high performance air filter yet, "any off road use" or "racing" or "illegal use" among other common activities or applications will void the warranty?

http://www.knfilters.com/warranty.htm

How long does it take to remove, clean and reinstall one versus buying a new $14 paper media Purolator?

Takes like 8 hrs if you include the drying part. I usually do it late at night so when I wake up, I can spray the oil on and reinstall.

DanaT
04-28-2013, 14:36
What's the displacement, what's the VE, what altitude, what is the ambient air temp, what is the IC core rated to flow? What hotside is in place, how big is the turbine being used... Give me any and all of those for a REAL WORLD answer, not make believe utopia for cars and people.
Also, don't forget to post a compressor map please.

Rogue Nation

3.6L, VE=185, 1500m, 23C, Stock IC,

Stock turbos (2 of them)

Spec of turbo:
· Max compressor flow – 32 lbs/min

· Actual CW dimensions – O.D. – 56.1mm / Inducer – 43.3mm

· TH area – 4.05²cm

· S&W dimensions – O.D. – 48mm / Exducer – 44.5mm

PVolk
04-28-2013, 14:40
At a glance, I'd think that unburnt fuel and carbon passed into the combustion chamber would be FAR less harmful than a continuous stream of tiny silica particles. To my knowledge, carbon is not very abrasive.
Truthfully, neither are directly harmful to the engine. It's moot. I was only mentioning it due to other's complaints about cleanliness between the intake element and the cylinder head.

And it's not a continous stream of silica particles. Air is continuous. Debris is only occasional. Debris getting past the element is minimal. And like I said, the stuff that does is not detrimental to anything.

DanaT
04-29-2013, 10:32
Well gosh darn,

He wanted to throw out a whole bunch of terms to seem like he knows what he is talking about like VE, intercooler flow, compressor maps, etc, etc and then he would tell me what is need to determine flow. I wonder why I haven't been educated yet.

Of course, my original question was about 300hp and airflow pressure drops.

See where you are silly, is you tried to through out jargon like you KNEW what you were talking about. Now, do you really think your engine MAF or MAP really requires knowing what your VE is or intercooler core flow rate is? No.

As an example, with 300hp, you need about 30lb/min airflow, plus or minus a little. A MAF measures MASS AIR FLOW. It measures how much air (i.e. cubic feet per minute or lb/min) is going across the hot wires cooling them down (there is a transfer function that the MAF wire resistance to air mass is calibrated from). From there the ECU calculates how much fuel to add.

You only need to know how much air is going into the engine to figure out how much extra is needed to make power. Here is a hint. To make 5% more power, you need 5% more air. Opps..going back to that old mass air flow thing.

So, all the jargon was just noise. Of course the two 32lb/min turbos probably has him a little confused...