World economy is a rigged game that normal folks lose [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MaxxAction
04-27-2013, 18:53
Time to wake up folks!

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425#ixzz2RfSq098J

Conspiracy theorists of the world, believers in the hidden hands of the Rothschilds and the Masons and the Illuminati, we skeptics owe you an apology. You were right. The players may be a little different, but your basic premise is correct: The world is a rigged game. We found this out in recent months, when a series of related corruption stories spilled out of the financial sector, suggesting the world's largest banks may be fixing the prices of, well, just about everything.

You may have heard of the Libor scandal, in which at least three – and perhaps as many as 16 – of the name-brand too-big-to-fail banks have been manipulating global interest rates, in the process messing around with the prices of upward of $500 trillion (that's trillion, with a "t") worth of financial instruments. When that sprawling con burst into public view last year, it was easily the biggest financial scandal in history – MIT professor Andrew Lo even said it "dwarfs by orders of magnitude any financial scam in the history of markets."

That was bad enough, but now Libor may have a twin brother. Word has leaked out that the London-based firm ICAP, the world's largest broker of interest-rate swaps, is being investigated by American authorities for behavior that sounds eerily reminiscent of the Libor mess. Regulators are looking into whether or not a small group of brokers at ICAP may have worked with up to 15 of the world's largest banks to manipulate ISDAfix, a benchmark number used around the world to calculate the prices of interest-rate swaps.

Interest-rate swaps are a tool used by big cities, major corporations and sovereign governments to manage their debt, and the scale of their use is almost unimaginably massive. It's about a $379 trillion market, meaning that any manipulation would affect a pile of assets about 100 times the size of the United States federal budget.

It should surprise no one that among the players implicated in this scheme to fix the prices of interest-rate swaps are the same megabanks – including Barclays, UBS, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase and the Royal Bank of Scotland – that serve on the Libor panel that sets global interest rates. In fact, in recent years many of these banks have already paid multimillion-dollar settlements for anti-competitive manipulation of one form or another (in addition to Libor, some were caught up in an anti-competitive scheme, detailed in Rolling Stone last year, to rig municipal-debt service auctions). Though the jumble of financial acronyms sounds like gibberish to the layperson, the fact that there may now be price-fixing scandals involving both Libor and ISDAfix suggests a single, giant mushrooming conspiracy of collusion and price-fixing hovering under the ostensibly competitive veneer of Wall Street culture.


Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425#ixzz2RiO4iUmZ

Tiro Fijo
04-27-2013, 19:31
But the Kenyan needs their money to finance his schemes.

silentpoet
04-27-2013, 19:42
I consider rolling stone as reliable a source as a truck stop bathroom wall.

MaxxAction
04-27-2013, 20:11
I consider rolling stone as reliable a source as a truck stop bathroom wall.

Right....

Not like anyone else has EVER warned us about the destructive ability of banks if given unchecked power.

For God's sake man, the majority of the founding fathers of our nation opposed central banking and warned us of such things!

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."---Thomas Jefferson

Also, all one must do to understand how likely it is that what the article in question says is true is look up how Fractional Reserve banking and lending works, it, in and of itself is a scam and the biggest reason why things cost 7 to 8 times more today than they did in the 70s.

devildog2067
04-27-2013, 20:27
look up how Fractional Reserve banking and lending works, it, in and of itself is a scam and the biggest reason why things cost 7 to 8 times more today than they did in the 70s.

Define "cost 7 to 8 times more."

In terms of what? Nominal dollars, sure. But so what? Wages rise with inflation just as prices do. By any reasonable measure almost everything we buy is cheaper today that it has ever been in human history. We have more "stuff" now than people have ever had.

ray9898
04-27-2013, 20:41
Define "cost 7 to 8 times more."

In terms of what? Nominal dollars, sure. But so what? Wages rise with inflation just as prices do. By any reasonable measure almost everything we buy is cheaper today that it has ever been in human history. We have more "stuff" now than people have ever had.

Logic? Who needs logic?

MaxxAction
04-27-2013, 22:08
Define "cost 7 to 8 times more."

In terms of what? Nominal dollars, sure. But so what? Wages rise with inflation just as prices do. By any reasonable measure almost everything we buy is cheaper today that it has ever been in human history. We have more "stuff" now than people have ever had.

BS.....

you have to be an utter fool to believe such nonsense.

Sure, if you have a job making 50 or 60 k, you can survive, but even in the last year the cost of feeding my family of 6 has gone up about 30%, but my wages certainly have not.

Gasoline is twice what it was five years ago. I still have to drive the same amount of miles a year, but unfortuneately cannot give myself a bump in wages to cover the difference in cost, my wages have not increased.

in 1968, I went to the dealership with my dad to pick up his new pontiac grand prix. Fully equipped SJ, 3580.00 out the door. At the time he was making about 9k a year. So it took about a third of his year's wages to pay for that car.

To make a similar comparion today, one would need to be making 120k per year.

Do you not understand fractional reserve banking??

This concept allows the bank to pull play money out of their asses (print it) lend it to countries like ours, and the banks you deal with, then charge you interest on their ****ing play money. And many people are perfectly content to sit by and let themselves get ****ed by these bastards who are destroying our future by taxing us to pay the interest on money that doesn't have any value.

Yeah, sounds perfectly sane, nothing to worry about.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 01:15
Think long and hard about this...(you said it)

World economy is a rigged game that normal folks lose

No matter what the detail are...how else could it possibly work? If you do *normal* things, the best you can hope for is *normal* results. You are not going to get very far ahead doing the same/similar things as everone else.

Again, how else could it possibly work? No matter what kind of money we use, no matter what kind of laws we pass, no matter who is running the show, there will be a few rich people...and then there will be everyone else. (of course, our system has produced the largest number of those few rich people the world has ever seen, there is something to be said for that)

It can not work any other way. That is not how math works. If you give everyone a million dollars, then a million dollars wont be worth anything. To be "rich" (to have more than most other people) you have to actually have more than most other people.

If it was easy, then lots of people would do it and it would have little value. Value comes from scarcity and desire. You have to do something that few others can. YOU CANT BE NORMAL! Being rich, by its mathematical definition ISNT NORMAL!

NeverMore1701
04-28-2013, 01:16
Wake up and what, exactly? Just curious.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 01:18
BS.....

you have to be an utter fool to believe such nonsense.

Sure, if you have a job making 50 or 60 k, you can survive, but even in the last year the cost of feeding my family of 6 has gone up about 30%, but my wages certainly have not.

Gasoline is twice what it was five years ago. I still have to drive the same amount of miles a year, but unfortuneately cannot give myself a bump in wages to cover the difference in cost, my wages have not increased.

in 1968, I went to the dealership with my dad to pick up his new pontiac grand prix. Fully equipped SJ, 3580.00 out the door. At the time he was making about 9k a year. So it took about a third of his year's wages to pay for that car.

To make a similar comparion today, one would need to be making 120k per year.

Do you not understand fractional reserve banking??

This concept allows the bank to pull play money out of their asses (print it) lend it to countries like ours, and the banks you deal with, then charge you interest on their ****ing play money. And many people are perfectly content to sit by and let themselves get ****ed by these bastards who are destroying our future by taxing us to pay the interest on money that doesn't have any value.

Yeah, sounds perfectly sane, nothing to worry about.

Your life and access to resources is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's. End of story. No matter what the details are....and your details suck (such as the car thing, I can destroy that arguments but I simply dont care to, facts will never get in the way of how people like you who suck at math, feel)

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-28-2013, 05:45
Your life and access to resources is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's. End of story. No matter what the details are....and your details suck (such as the car thing, I can destroy that arguments but I simply dont care to, facts will never get in the way of how people like you who suck at math, feel)

"Your life is better now." LOL. Another one of your opinions that becomes axiomatic. Talk about feelings.

cowboywannabe
04-28-2013, 06:05
as long as nobody really believes the federal reserve is federal or that it has a reserve.

Cybercowboy
04-28-2013, 06:23
MaxxAction, if you want to make $60k a year, you could always get a job signing up people for foodstamps for the Obama administration.

But seriously, if you aren't making $60k/yr or more in today's economy and have a family of 6, you are essentially living below the poverty line. No wonder you're struggling.

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 06:57
MaxxAction, if you want to make $60k a year, you could always get a job signing up people for foodstamps for the Obama administration.

But seriously, if you aren't making $60k/yr or more in today's economy and have a family of 6, you are essentially living below the poverty line. No wonder you're struggling.

I make enough...

but that isn't the point. The point is that it costs approximately 30% more now than it did 5 years ago to feed us, and twice as much to drive to work, or anywhere else for that matter. But have wages increased to cover that difference? Nah, not so much.

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 07:22
Your life and access to resources is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's. End of story. No matter what the details are....and your details suck (such as the car thing, I can destroy that arguments but I simply dont care to, facts will never get in the way of how people like you who suck at math, feel)

Rabbi...

Did you even read the article??

I just love how any time anything is posted that challeneges the status quo as far as what is an acceptable way to view the world, there are immediately people, yourself included, who start throwing around insults and pejoratives,(I.E. people like me who suck at math) seemingly without even considering the source material.

I cannot imagine people who are capable of critical thought, but refusing use that ability simply because if they do their worldview might fall apart.

There are worse thing than not being "smart" in the eyes of people like you Rabbi. Intellectual dishonesty and cowardice for the sake of preserving an illusion come to mind.

airmotive
04-28-2013, 08:26
I make enough...

but that isn't the point. The point is that it costs approximately 30% more now than it did 5 years ago to feed us, and twice as much to drive to work, or anywhere else for that matter. But have wages increased to cover that difference? Nah, not so much.

And whose fault is it that you're not making more money?

As for food prices....food is a commodity. Just like oil, ammo and gold. When people want more of any given commodity, or the supply of any given commodity goes down, the price goes up.

Remember the last two years of drought? Dairy farmers slaughtered their dairy cows; grain farmers watched their crops turn to dust; fruit trees withered and died. Demand went up. Prices rise.

In the last five years, I learned Spanish, took course work in metallurgy and management and volunteered to teach my particular expertise to new hires within my company. Demand for me went up. My price rose.

Supply and demand.

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 09:06
And whose fault is it that you're not making more money?

As for food prices....food is a commodity. Just like oil, ammo and gold. When people want more of any given commodity, or the supply of any given commodity goes down, the price goes up.

Remember the last two years of drought? Dairy farmers slaughtered their dairy cows; grain farmers watched their crops turn to dust; fruit trees withered and died. Demand went up. Prices rise.

In the last five years, I learned Spanish, took course work in metallurgy and management and volunteered to teach my particular expertise to new hires within my company. Demand for me went up. My price rose.

Supply and demand.

Oh man...

you guys are completely missing the point. I make plenty of money to survive. But, I am spending a lot more of it for EVERYTHING now that I did five years ago. Why??

Because when the banks that were "too big to fail" got in trouble, the Federal Reserve (which is neither federal, nor is it a reserve) saw fit to collude with world governments to bail out their crooked asses by printing more money.

The more currency that is in circulation, the less the currency is worth. Since then, we have had QE1, QE2, and some in congress want to repeat this cycle again, placing more money in circulation, devaluing what is already there as well as whatever additional currency comes in.

If you are "rich" it won't make much difference, but if we continue on this path, you will have to either be rich, or rely on your government for your subsistence. It is lunacy, and most seem perfectly satisfied to sit by and allow it to continue.

Altaris
04-28-2013, 09:15
Making money is really simple....


South Park Underpants Gnomes Profit Plan - YouTube

G17Jake
04-28-2013, 09:42
How are you losing?

427
04-28-2013, 09:45
Oh man...

you guys are completely missing the point. I make plenty of money to survive. But, I am spending a lot more of it for EVERYTHING now that I did five years ago. Why??

Because when the banks that were "too big to fail" got in trouble, the Federal Reserve (which is neither federal, nor is it a reserve) saw fit to collude with world governments to bail out their crooked asses by printing more money.

The more currency that is in circulation, the less the currency is worth. Since then, we have had QE1, QE2, and some in congress want to repeat this cycle again, placing more money in circulation, devaluing what is already there as well as whatever additional currency comes in.

If you are "rich" it won't make much difference, but if we continue on this path, you will have to either be rich, or rely on your government for your subsistence. It is lunacy, and most seem perfectly satisfied to sit by and allow it to continue.
Exactly, what would you have us do? Tell us.

NeverMore1701
04-28-2013, 10:11
I'm still curious what people are supposed to do once they "wake up".

CAcop
04-28-2013, 11:39
I'm still curious what people are supposed to do once they "wake up".

Government intrusion or revolt would be my guess. That seems to be the common response for people who don't like things and know nothing is going to change.

NeverMore1701
04-28-2013, 11:58
Sweet, that'll help the wold economy!

Glocksanity
04-28-2013, 12:13
when the US dollar collapses and gold is the last man standing everyone will see exactly how this game was rigged.


sent from my bunker...

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 12:15
Exactly, what would you have us do? Tell us.

First...

educate yourself. If you do some reading, you will find that the Federal Reserve Bank has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. It is a private, for profit entity that serves to manipulate monetary policy to the benefit of it's owners. Furthermore, the I.R.S. is nothing more than their strong arm, sopranos style, mob guy collectors.

Then, when you have educated yourself to a point where you figure out that the whole nation is getting bent over without so much as a drop of KY, get pissed and start educating your friends and family. The majority of people have absolutely no clue how things really work. Just be prepared for the pushback. That's called cognitive dissonance. People will often reject new facts to maintain their current reality, even if their current reality is fallacious. It is hard for most to imagine that humans could be so evil.

Then start writing to the inmates running the asylum in washington. I think there are still a few good ones in the bunch, and they need to know that we know.

I suspect that most of those who hold office are scared to death of these thugs, especially considering that the last president to take on the Federal Reserve Bank was JFK (and we all know how that turned out), so they won't do much. But if enough of them knew we were behind them, perhaps they would.

Glocksanity
04-28-2013, 12:39
It can not work any other way. That is not how math works.

here's another truth about the way math works. All paper currencies eventually go to 0.

we are seeing the great looting right now before the US dollar collapses.

the ruling elite are making sure they are securing resources for themselves at the expense of all others.

Gold. Get it while you can.

sent from my bunker...

427
04-28-2013, 12:49
First...

educate yourself. If you do some reading, you will find that the Federal Reserve Bank has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. It is a private, for profit entity that serves to manipulate monetary policy to the benefit of it's owners. Furthermore, the I.R.S. is nothing more than their strong arm, sopranos style, mob guy collectors.

Then, when you have educated yourself to a point where you figure out that the whole nation is getting bent over without so much as a drop of KY, get pissed and start educating your friends and family. The majority of people have absolutely no clue how things really work. Just be prepared for the pushback. That's called cognitive dissonance. People will often reject new facts to maintain their current reality, even if their current reality is fallacious. It is hard for most to imagine that humans could be so evil.

Then start writing to the inmates running the asylum in washington. I think there are still a few good ones in the bunch, and they need to know that we know.

I suspect that most of those who hold office are scared to death of these thugs, especially considering that the last president to take on the Federal Reserve Bank was JFK (and we all know how that turned out), so they won't do much. But if enough of them knew we were behind them, perhaps they would.

After I "educate" myself, start preaching to F&F, writing politicians of what they already know and nothing happens, then what?

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 12:58
After I "educate" myself, start preaching to F&F, writing politicians of what they already know and nothing happens, then what?

So...

the guy coming down the block to kick your ass is bigger, tougher, and stronger, so you just throw in the towel and say "might as well not fight" because he is?

How do you know what you can do or what might happen until you try?

Glocksanity
04-28-2013, 13:04
I'm still curious what people are supposed to do once they "wake up".

Gold and preps.

sent from my bunker...

427
04-28-2013, 13:07
So...

the guy coming down the block to kick your ass is bigger, tougher, and stronger, so you just throw in the towel and say "might as well not fight" because he is?
I have no problem fighting the guy coming toward me as I know exactly what I'm up against.

How do you know what you can do or what might happen until you try?

Tell us, what exactly are we up against. How do we fight an entity with unlimited resources? Who do we direct our wrath?

Specifically, tell us - not the vagaries you've been using.

NeverMore1701
04-28-2013, 13:53
Gold and preps.

sent from my bunker...

Could do that.

Or I could buy a little bit of land a little ways outside of town, build a nice house, barn, and shop on it, continue my education, move up in my chosen career field, make good investments, and enjoy my life.


Have fun in your bunker with your vast stores of gold, though.

wjv
04-28-2013, 14:27
BS.....

you have to be an utter fool to believe such nonsense.

Sure, if you have a job making 50 or 60 k, you can survive, but even in the last year the cost of feeding my family of 6 has gone up about 30%, but my wages certainly have not.
.
.
.

in 1968, I went to the dealership with my dad to pick up his new pontiac grand prix. Fully equipped SJ, 3580.00 out the door. At the time he was making about 9k a year. So it took about a third of his year's wages to pay for that car.

To make a similar comparion today, one would need to be making 120k per year.




Sorry YOUR wages have not kept up. . .

I bought a Honda civic 1200 in 1979 and paid ~$3,200 for it. I was making ~$18,000 at the time. 3200/18000 = ~18% of my income. The last car I bought was a KIA Rio LX which I paid $12.5K for. The 79 Civic and the 08 Rio are apples to apples since they are both econo-cars. Except that the Rio came with a CD/Stereo, AC, upgraded interior, better mpg, better suspension, better safety, Tilt wheel, fuel injection, better/quieter ride, bigger interior, 3x warranty. And the Rio price tag was only 10.4% of my income. . .

What to know how much my first computer cost? First TV? First VCR?

jtull7
04-28-2013, 14:45
The fix is in:
The deal is down,
The game is cooked,
The dice are loaded,
The wheels are rigged, and
The decks are marked, shaved, and stacked.
The dealers always cheat,
And the chef just spit in your soup.

That's just how it is.

wjv
04-28-2013, 14:50
And whose fault is it that you're not making more money?

As for food prices....food is a commodity. Just like oil, ammo and gold. When people want more of any given commodity, or the supply of any given commodity goes down, the price goes up.

+100!!

Whose fault is it if someone is not successful?

My dad NEVER made more than $12K per year in his entire life (he retired in the late 1970's) Yet he lived well, ended up owning 2 home (primary & rental) and right before he retire he bought a new Chevy Impala and paid cash for it. (no debt and good cash management) I have 3 sisters and we all went to college and we all have graduate degrees because our parents believed in education.

I have one 2 year degree, one 4 year degree, one grad degree, and here I am at age 56 working on a second grad degree. . Why? Because if you stand still, you fall behind and get buried. I make over double what a white male in the 55-65 age bracket makes. .

So maybe there is a relationship between effort and reward. .

Additionally late last year my wife and I took ~$200K of our money and bought a business for her to run. It's been doing well these first four month earning $7K-$8K per month in actual profit. So maybe there is also a relationship between risk and reward. .

I can't do **** about the Soros or Bloombergs of the world. My complaining to Congress will accomplish nothing as these guy work behind the scenes anyway, and "own" the necessary people to get away with their schemes. The central bank isn't going away, and neither is AGI, BOA, Chase or all or the other mega financial players.

So instead of complaining about how terrible life is, maybe a better idea instead, is to figure out how to become one of "the rich".

Highspeedlane
04-28-2013, 15:09
I don't doubt corruption in the world's banking industry runs wide and deep, but there is absolutely nothing anyone of our stature would ever be able to do about it.

And truthfully, so long as people aren't starving or unnecessarily suffering, they are not going to care. Disrupt the supply of food and energy though (a theoretical collapse perhaps), then things will change.

oldgraywolf
04-28-2013, 15:16
I think I'm going to go worry myself sick, and try not to think about the great life my wife and I have built for ourselves.

Dennis in MA
04-28-2013, 15:17
Dammit. I have to go tell my bank that that money can't be mine. The system is rigged and I'm broke! Rolling Stone said so.

Rolling Stone - that's like having a magazine where the titans of the financial markets critique the music and movie world. Lol

PBCounty
04-28-2013, 15:36
I'm still curious what people are supposed to do once they "wake up".

Take MaxxAction!!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8r0rlwjij1qkjr7jo1_400.jpg

NeverMore1701
04-28-2013, 15:38
Take MaxxAction!!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8r0rlwjij1qkjr7jo1_400.jpg

Of course! How could I have been so blind? :crying:

RonS
04-28-2013, 16:23
I believe the usual prescription is a Spontaneous Popular Uprising of the Proletariat. The left has been waiting for the underclass to wake up since century before last.

Daltini
04-28-2013, 16:58
Jeez, the last thing this economy needs a bunch of whoa-is-me do-nothings...the odds are stacked against you because your mind set. Have fun hoarding a bunch of BS and watching Alex Jones.

airmotive
04-28-2013, 17:34
wjv and OP (and the rest of the world, as far as I'm concerned).

I honestly believe that, if I worked harder and sacrificed more, I could be a millionaire.
I'm not special. I'm not a genius or savant.
That implies that I have the same belief for any other non-genius or non-savant....and I do.

That does not guarantee seven figures for anyone who has the motivation/intelligence/gumption to grind out a million bucks. But the opportunity IS there. It's there for anyone as long as the government stays the hell out of the way and see successful people as 'the enemy who doesn't pay their fair share'.

I could go on (and on and on) but I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before.

devildog2067
04-28-2013, 19:09
BS.....

Not BS.

you have to be an utter fool to believe such nonsense.

The nice thing is, I don't have to "believe" anything at all. Once I understand the math, there is no ambiguity. The numbers are the numbers, it doesn't matter what you believe.

but even in the last year the cost of feeding my family of 6 has gone up about 30%, but my wages certainly have not.

OK. That's... 1 data point over a time period of 1 year. So what? I can't speak to what exactly in your local or familial circumstances have driven that cost increase for you, but the food costs for my family have not increased anything like 30% in the last year.

And quite frankly, a year isn't long enough for wages to move in response to inflation pressures. In 1995, a fresh MBA going to a management consulting firm made about 80k base salary. This year they make about 140. That's the kind of time horizon I'm talking about.
Gasoline is twice what it was five years ago.

That's not even a little bit true. In the first week of January, 2008, the average price (all grades) of a gallon of retail gasoline was about $3.14. The week of April 22, 2013 it's $3.54. That's a compounded growth rate of less than 2.5% per year.

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh568/devildog267/GasPricesSince2008_zps85380dd0.png

(I made this chart with raw data from the EIA, http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/)

Do you not understand fractional reserve banking??

I have a feeling I understand it far better than you do.

This concept allows the bank to pull play money out of their asses (print it) lend it to countries like ours, and the banks you deal with, then charge you interest on their ****ing play money.

And yep, these words prove that I was right.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 19:26
"getting things" (whatever you want that to mean, having more toys, having more money, having more gold, having more guns....the bigger house, the better business, the cooler car.....whatever)

Is a competitive sport. That means forces are oppossed to you. They are teaming up against you. That also means forces will throw you a bone to have you on their team. It means a lot of things, but it is a competitive sport.

The game doesnt care how you feel. The game doesn care if it is "right" or "wrong" is simply is. It will crush you if you suck at it. It may crush you no matter how hard you try.

Effort isnt enough. Smarts isnt enough. You have to also have to make the correct choices. (whatever those may be) People tend to get what they earn...and that is a truth that many people will never be able to accept, despite the fact they are the living proof of it.

The glorious thing about it is, if you want...and you have the skills(few do and no matter how you feel, your result will speak for themself), you can win the game. Of cours it is hard. Of course there are all kinds of forces working against you. Most will fail....hell, most never really try but, in general, most everyone gets to take a swing, or many swings at the chance.

paynter2
04-28-2013, 19:29
Of course markets are manipulated. Riddle me this... Why didn't Helicopter Ben threaten to drop gold eagles instead of dollars?

You want proof of Government manipulation? Or as the thread states - 'Rigged Game'? Consider the LIBOR rigging or even closer to home - the FED's ZIRP.

$85 Billion / month. Here's some math for you - that's a $1 TRILLION / year.

The FED is rigging the bond market - right in plain sight. They buy Treasury bonds with money congered from thin air. In a 'free' country with 'free' markets, the market should set the interest rates - the FED, through buying up these bonds with their 'printed' money keeps interest rates at their level - not market level. The FED has to buy the trash - at 0% interest nobody else will.

They (FED) are also buying up mortgage backed securities with their fake money. Fear not - the FED will not get into trouble - they will just roll all those bank loses on to the American public. Even now they are drawing interest on those bad loans while the banks are being bailed out of their stupidity.

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 19:47
Of course markets are manipulated. Riddle me this... Why didn't Helicopter Ben threaten to drop gold eagles instead of dollars?

You want proof of Government manipulation? Or as the thread states - 'Rigged Game'? Consider the LIBOR rigging or even closer to home - the FED's ZIRP.

$85 Billion / month. Here's some math for you - that's a $1 TRILLION / year.

The FED is rigging the bond market - right in plain sight. They buy Treasury bonds with money congered from thin air. In a 'free' country with 'free' markets, the market should set the interest rates - the FED, through buying up these bonds with their 'printed' money keeps interest rates at their level - not market level. The FED has to buy the trash - at 0% interest nobody else will.

They (FED) are also buying up mortgage backed securities with their fake money. Fear not - the FED will not get into trouble - they will just roll all those bank loses on to the American public. Even now they are drawing interest on those bad loans while the banks are being bailed out of their stupidity.

"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country.

When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin!

You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."--Andrew Jackson

The problem seems to be in our current era, according to many in this very thread, that they DO understand the the rank injustice of our money and banking system, but can't be bothered to even raise a voice in protest.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 19:48
"Your life is better now." LOL. Another one of your opinions that becomes axiomatic. Talk about feelings.

You cant even quote what I said correctly.

Andy123
04-28-2013, 19:53
Are they rigging it? Well, sort of. They are definitely manipulating it. That are doing so for two, maybe three reasons.

One reason is that just as fiat money can be made out of thin air, it can disappear into thin air. During the recession, a great deal of money, in the form of debt, was destroyed. In order to keep the money supply somewhat stable, the government needed to create a great deal of money to replace that which was destroyed. The fact that their has only been minimal inflation shows that the amount created is roughly the amount that was lost.

The powers that be also try to manipulate the money supply to create full employment. This is a dangerous game, and I think most realize that, but it is a game that both we, the public (most of the public) and the politicians all want to play, so it gets played.

Finally, I believe, with little hard proof, but solid reasoning, that the form of money supply inputs are structured to provide political gain for the party in power. A modern day to the victor goes the spoils effect.

However, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether you use ounces of gold, slips of special paper, or bits on a computer to measure the game. What matters, whether you are a country or a person is: What do you produce, and what do you consume? Are they balanced?

What we consume does not make us rich or poor. Only when we compare it to what we see, or more likely, see on the TV or computer that we suddenly see how our material wealth compares. In absolute terms, as person living on 40k a year has more material wealth and convenience than royalty did 250 years ago.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 19:53
"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country.

When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin!

You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."--Andrew Jackson

The problem seems to be in our current era, according to many in this very thread, that they DO understand the the rank injustice of our money and banking system, but can't be bothered to even raise a voice in protest.

We all get how you feel and what you think you understand (your technical understanding is very lacking)

Now, here is the question....

This system has produced the wealthiest, most powerful country the world has ever known. There are more wealthy people in the US than in any other country in history and most anyone has a chance to join their ranks.

The results are, the world, in all of its history, has never produced a better system for producing more wealth and opportunity for more people.

(the question part) So you, who lacks an understanding of how it actually works....how would you fix this broken system again?


Yeah, it is flawed and it will fall someday, somehow....but people like you would have never played the game in the first place.

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 20:35
Rabbi...

I am no economist, but I know what **** smells like, and this illusion that we call our economy smells.

It smells very much like the **** that happened that brought about the great depression that was kicked off by the market crash of 1929.

Though the crash is what is often blamed for the great depression, it was NOT the cause. The things that are common to the conditions that existed prior to that economic disaster and where we stand today is the ridiculous manipulation of monetary policy in the form of over abundant currency and credit.

The biggest factors in bringing about the crash, according to some, is that between 1921 and 1929 that the Fed increased the amount of currency within the economy (by printing more out of thin air) by almost 60 percent, which sent the stock market to heights never before seen (the roaring twenties), and expanded credit acces in the same way, which gave people a false sense of security in the american economy.

The main reason that the great depression lasted so long is the notion that by repeating the same behaviors, we would get a different result, namely that hoover increased spending on relief and subsidy programs, which increased governmetal spending as a percentage of GDP by almost a third in one year. (1930-1931) Sound familiar?

So with these current conditions, if it is not adjusted back down, it is going to go to **** and adjust itself.

When it all goes to hell, are you going to be ok with footing the bill to bail these "banks" out again knowing that they were playing fast and loose based on BS speculation?

Is it not like old AJ said that when they profit, they take that profit, but when they lose, you and I foot the bill?

How much further will it go or can it go when our currency has no basis in reality? There is no standard besides what a bunch of guys get together and arbitrarily decide. That is what the article originally posted was getting at.

So are we just supposed to sit by an allow this to happen, again??

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 20:43
Rabbi...

I am no economist, but I know what **** smells like, and this illusion that we call our economy smells.

It smells very much like the **** that happened that brought about the great depression that was kicked off by the market crash of 1929.

Though the crash is what is often blamed for the great depression, it was NOT the cause. The things that are common to the conditions that existed prior to that economic disaster and where we stand today is the ridiculous manipulation of monetary policy in the form of over abundant currency and credit.

The biggest factors in bringing about the crash, according to some, is that between 1921 and 1929 that the Fed increased the amount of currency within the economy (by printing more out of thin air) by almost 60 percent, which sent the stock market to heights never before seen (the roaring twenties), and expanded credit acces in the same way, which gave people a false sense of security in the american economy.

The main reason that the great depression lasted so long is the notion that by repeating the same behaviors, we would get a different result, namely that hoover increased spending on relief and subsidy programs, which increased governmetal spending as a percentage of GDP by almost a third in one year. (1930-1931) Sound familiar?

So with these current conditions, if it is not adjusted back down, it is going to go to **** and adjust itself.

When it all goes to hell, are you going to be ok with footing the bill to bail these "banks" out again knowing that they were playing fast and loose based on BS speculation?

Is it not like old AJ said that when they profit, they take that profit, but when they lose, you and I foot the bill?

How much further will it go or can it go when our currency has no basis in reality? There is no standard besides what a bunch of guys get together and arbitrarily decide. That is what the article originally posted was getting at.

So are we just supposed to sit by an allow this to happen, again??

So....you dont actually know what you are talking about, you just know that you feel like there is something wrong with it...and you point to the great depression....through which the US survived.

...here is a fact you need to know about the great depression. Yep, it was real...but before, during and after TO THIS VERY DAY, the US has been the largest economy in the world.

I know that wont mean anything to you, because you simply dont understand this issue on a technical level, you just know how you feel.

But it is a pretty powerful fact when people play the "great depression card."

Again, is spite of the details, and there are plenty of details, your argument is the system that has produced the most wealth for the most people EVER is a bad system. You dont really know why, you just dont like it and you have heard some thing that agree with how you feel so you believe those things.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-28-2013, 20:47
You cant even quote what I said correctly.

It accurately captured what you claimed. I could have quoted, "Your life and access to resources is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's." I could have written, "Your life...is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's." People also could have moved their eye one inch to look.:upeyes:

None of it matters anyway because saying life is better now is still your opinion, no matter how you feel about it.



P.S.

If you're going to put down your abacus and attempt to teach English, then you might want to learn how that game is played. You are regularly incorrect with punctuation, spelling, syntax, and even grammar. I'm not talking typos or phone typing either.

MaxxAction
04-28-2013, 21:02
So....you dont actually know what you are talking about, you just know that you feel like there is something wrong with it...and you point to the great depression....through which the US survived.

...here is a fact you need to know about the great depression. Yep, it was real...but before, during and after TO THIS VERY DAY, the US has been the largest economy in the world.

I know that wont mean anything to you, because you simply dont understand this issue on a technical level, you just know how you feel.

But it is a pretty powerful fact when people play the "great depression card."

Again, is spite of the details, and there are plenty of details, your argument is the system that has produced the most wealth for the most people EVER is a bad system. You dont really know why, you just dont like it and you have heard some thing that agree with how you feel so you believe those things.

Rabbi...

can you actually post a reply without attempting to insult someone? Do you always have to let everyone know that you think you are the smartest guy in the room?

As far as your post is concerned, do the research yourself. Yeah, what is going on right now is very similar to what was happening before the great depression, and it is RIPE for another collapse, except, we have ascended to an even higher height, according to you, from which to fall.

I personally don't care for the thought that while these guys sit in rooms and determine which way the economy goes, that when it all does go to hell, it won't matter one iota to them, because they all have undoubtedly backed themselves up with Gold and silver and tangible assets, just like they did leading up to the great depression.

On the other hand, when it fails again, if the fed comes to the rescue, people like you and me foot the bill to pay these *******s for repeating stupidity over and over.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 21:04
It accurately captured what you claimed. I could have quoted, "Your life and access to resources is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's." I could have written, "Your life...is, overall, better now than it was in the 60's." People also could have moved their eye one inch to look.:upeyes:

None of it matters anyway because saying life is better now is still your opinion, no matter how you feel about it.



P.S.

If you're going to put down your abacus and attempt to teach English, then you might want to learn how that game is played. You are regularly incorrect with punctuation, spelling, syntax, and even grammar. I'm not talking typos or phone typing either.

You get to tell us what you said. You get to tell us what you feel. You dont get to tell me what I said. You were wrong. You modified what I said to better fit what you wanted to say.

427
04-28-2013, 21:09
Rabbi...

I am no economist, but I know what **** smells like, and this illusion that we call our economy smells.

It smells very much like the **** that happened that brought about the great depression that was kicked off by the market crash of 1929.

Though the crash is what is often blamed for the great depression, it was NOT the cause. The things that are common to the conditions that existed prior to that economic disaster and where we stand today is the ridiculous manipulation of monetary policy in the form of over abundant currency and credit.

The biggest factors in bringing about the crash, according to some, is that between 1921 and 1929 that the Fed increased the amount of currency within the economy (by printing more out of thin air) by almost 60 percent, which sent the stock market to heights never before seen (the roaring twenties), and expanded credit acces in the same way, which gave people a false sense of security in the american economy.

The main reason that the great depression lasted so long is the notion that by repeating the same behaviors, we would get a different result, namely that hoover increased spending on relief and subsidy programs, which increased governmetal spending as a percentage of GDP by almost a third in one year. (1930-1931) Sound familiar?

So with these current conditions, if it is not adjusted back down, it is going to go to **** and adjust itself.

When it all goes to hell, are you going to be ok with footing the bill to bail these "banks" out again knowing that they were playing fast and loose based on BS speculation?

Is it not like old AJ said that when they profit, they take that profit, but when they lose, you and I foot the bill?

How much further will it go or can it go when our currency has no basis in reality? There is no standard besides what a bunch of guys get together and arbitrarily decide. That is what the article originally posted was getting at.

So are we just supposed to sit by an allow this to happen, again??

Again, I'll ask:

What do you want us to do?

To whom do we direct our wrath? Congress? The President? The bankers? Which bankers or all bankers?

Congress isn't going to do anything. The electorate doesn't care. Now, what?

Revolution? Uprising? Against whom? If it's the .gov too many people dependent on it from welfare to retirement.

Tell us.

vikingsoftpaw
04-28-2013, 21:12
Wake up and what, exactly? Just curious.

Wake up and Join us in Occupy Whatever (except a job)

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 21:12
Rabbi...

can you actually post a reply without attempting to insult someone? Do you always have to let everyone know that you think you are the smartest guy in the room?

As far as your post is concerned, do the research yourself. Yeah, what is going on right now is very similar to what was happening before the great depression, and it is RIPE for another collapse, except, we have ascended to an even higher height, according to you, from which to fall.

I personally don't care for the thought that while these guys sit in rooms and determine which way the economy goes, that when it all does go to hell, it won't matter one iota to them, because they all have undoubtedly backed themselves up with Gold and silver and tangible assets, just like they did leading up to the great depression.

On the other hand, when it fails again, if the fed comes to the rescue, people like you and me foot the bill to pay these *******s for repeating stupidity over and over.


Yeah, I once again, understand how you feel. I get that you want to take a swipe at me.

Now, instead of telling us how you feel. Show us what you know. Use math. Use it to support your position. Destroy mine with it.

Or just gripe about it and keep letting us know you think I have a flawed presonality.

Hell, I dont even disagree with you that we have real economic trouble. I dont disagree with you it could end up dire. I dont disagree with you that I am a prick.

....but none of that changes the fact that you dont have a technical understanding of this issue.

Kozel
04-28-2013, 21:14
Time to wake up folks!



Wake up and do what exactly? Run around scream and shout? It is waaaaaay too late to “wake up”.

There is absolutely nothing that can be done to save this country. We are way pass any kind of point on no return.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-28-2013, 21:17
You get to tell us what you said. You get to tell us what you feel. You dont get to tell me what I said. You were wrong. You modified what I said to better fit what you wanted to say.

The sentence is syntactically correct. You said it. What you said is right there in black and white.

GlockPistola
04-28-2013, 21:18
I don't doubt corruption in the world's banking industry runs wide and deep, but there is absolutely nothing anyone of our stature would ever be able to do about it.

And truthfully, so long as people aren't starving or unnecessarily suffering, they are not going to care. Disrupt the supply of food and energy though (a theoretical collapse perhaps), then things will change.

Tell that to the people of Iceland who threw the crooked bankers who destroyed their economy in prison, they fired the government who helped them loot the country, wrote off all illegal debt as odious debt and now their economy fully recovered and they are doing very well. But shhh! Don't tell the serfs here, you wouldn't want them getting the same idea and picking up their torches and pitchforks. Instead, let's sell the idea of more bail outs and looting of their savings account like they are doing in Cyprus.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 21:19
The sentence is syntactically correct. You said it. What you said is right there in black and white.

It probably is but I am not engaged in an English lesson with you....and if that is the swipe you are down to...:rofl:

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-28-2013, 21:22
Rabbi...

can you actually post a reply without attempting to insult someone? Do you always have to let everyone know that you think you are the smartest guy in the room?



I find that the people who do that aren't all that smart. His constant need and attempts to ridicule people says more about his insecurity than it does about those people.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-28-2013, 21:24
It probably is but I am not engaged in an English lesson with you....and if that is the swipe you are down to...:rofl:

No, that is actually the math of what you said. It doesn't matter if I incorrectly didn't include the ellipsis.

Rabbi
04-28-2013, 21:26
I find that the people who do that aren't all that smart. His constant need and attempts to ridicule people says more about his insecurity than it does about those people.

A prick whos information is correct is still correct. People who feel wont be able to get past how they feel about the prick....which is their whole problem. Facts are not what they get from conversation.

devildog2067
04-28-2013, 21:28
Tell that to the people of Iceland who threw the crooked bankers who destroyed their economy in prison, they fired the government who helped them loot the country, wrote off all illegal debt as odious debt and now their economy fully recovered and they are doing very well.

There are a multitude of reasons why this is a) not true and b) wouldn't be extendable to the US even if it were (beginning with the fact that Iceland's economy is ~50x smaller than Illinois').

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-28-2013, 21:39
A prick whos information is correct is still correct. People who feel wont be able to get past how they feel about the prick....which is their whole problem. Facts are not what they get from conversation.

You're talking about others' problems? Well, suit yourself, but you often seem to be puzzled when you don't get something. I'd have to wonder how much that affects a prick's math in the day-to-day world. Oh well, guess you know that old saying about flies, honey, and vinegar.

wjv
04-28-2013, 22:02
There are a multitude of reasons why this is a) not true and b) wouldn't be extendable to the US even if it were (beginning with the fact that Iceland's economy is ~50x smaller than Illinois').


And Iceland didn't have 1/4 of their people on generational welfare.

wjv
04-28-2013, 22:04
I don't disagree with you that I am a prick.

Finally something good comes out of this thread

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

MaxxAction
04-29-2013, 05:18
Tell that to the people of Iceland who threw the crooked bankers who destroyed their economy in prison, they fired the government who helped them loot the country, wrote off all illegal debt as odious debt and now their economy fully recovered and they are doing very well. But shhh! Don't tell the serfs here, you wouldn't want them getting the same idea and picking up their torches and pitchforks. Instead, let's sell the idea of more bail outs and looting of their savings account like they are doing in Cyprus.

Nobel prize winning economist Joe Stiglitz notes:


What Iceland did was right. It would have been wrong to burden future generations with the mistakes of the financial system.

Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman writes:


What [Iceland's recovery] demonstrated was the … case for letting creditors of private banks gone wild eat the losses.

Krugman also says:


A funny thing happened on the way to economic Armageddon: Iceland’s very desperation made conventional behavior impossible, freeing the nation to break the rules. Where everyone else bailed out the bankers and made the public pay the price, Iceland let the banks go bust and actually expanded its social safety net. Where everyone else was fixated on trying to placate international investors, Iceland imposed temporary controls on the movement of capital to give itself room to maneuver.

Krugman is right. Letting the banks go bust – instead of perpetually bailing them out – is the right way to go.

We’ve previously noted:


Iceland told the banks to pound sand. And Iceland’s economy is doing much better than virtually all of the countries which have let the banks push them around.

Bloomberg reports:


Iceland holds some key lessons for nations trying to survive bailouts after the island’s approach to its rescue led to a “surprisingly” strong recovery, the International Monetary Fund’s mission chief to the country said.

Iceland’s commitment to its program, a decision to push losses on to bondholders instead of taxpayers and the safeguarding of a welfare system that shielded the unemployed from penury helped propel the nation from collapse toward recovery, according to the Washington-based fund.

***

Iceland refused to protect creditors in its banks, which failed in 2008 after their debts bloated to 10 times the size of the economy.

The IMF’s point about bondholders is an important one: the failure to force a haircut on the bondholders is dooming the U.S. and Europe to economic doldrums.

The IMF notes:


[The] decision not to make taxpayers liable for bank losses was right, economists say.

In other words, as IMF put it:


Key to Iceland’s recovery was a program which sought to ensure that the restructuring of the banks would not require Icelandic taxpayers to shoulder excessive private sector losses.

Icenews points out:


Experts continue to praise Iceland’s recovery success after the country’s bank bailouts of 2008.

Unlike the US and several countries in the eurozone, Iceland allowed its banking system to fail in the global economic downturn and put the burden on the industry’s creditors rather than taxpayers.

***

The rebound continues to wow officials, including International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde, who recently referred to the Icelandic recovery as “impressive”. And experts continue to reiterate that European officials should look to Iceland for lessons regarding austerity measures and similar issues.

Barry Ritholtz noted last year:


Rather than bailout the banks — Iceland could not have done so even if they wanted to — they guaranteed deposits (the way our FDIC does), and let the normal capitalistic process of failure run its course.

They are now much much better for it than the countries like the US and Ireland who did not.

Bloomberg pointed out February 2011:


Unlike other nations, including the U.S. and Ireland, which injected billions of dollars of capital into their financial institutions to keep them afloat, Iceland placed its biggest lenders in receivership. It chose not to protect creditors of the country’s banks, whose assets had ballooned to $209 billion, 11 times gross domestic product.

***

“Iceland did the right thing … creditors, not the taxpayers, shouldered the losses of banks,” says Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, an economics professor at Columbia University in New York. “Ireland’s done all the wrong things, on the other hand. That’s probably the worst model.”

Ireland guaranteed all the liabilities of its banks when they ran into trouble and has been injecting capital — 46 billion euros ($64 billion) so far — to prop them up. That brought the country to the brink of ruin, forcing it to accept a rescue package from the European Union in December.

***

Countries with larger banking systems can follow Iceland’s example, says Adriaan van der Knaap, a managing director at UBS AG.

“It wouldn’t upset the financial system,” says Van der Knaap, who has advised Iceland’s bank resolution committees.

***

Arni Pall Arnason, 44, Iceland’s minister of economic affairs, says the decision to make debt holders share the pain saved the country’s future.

“If we’d guaranteed all the banks’ liabilities, we’d be in the same situation as Ireland,” says Arnason, whose Social Democratic Alliance was a junior coalition partner in the Haarde government.

***

“In the beginning, banks and other financial institutions in Europe were telling us, ‘Never again will we lend to you,’” Einarsdottir says. “Then it was 10 years, then 5. Now they say they might soon be ready to lend again.”

And Iceland’s prosecution of white collar fraud played a big part in its recovery:


[The U.S. and Europe have thwarted white collar fraud investigations ... let alone prosecutions.] On the other hand, Iceland has prosecuted the fraudster bank heads (and here and here) and their former prime minister, and their economy is recovering nicely … because trust is being restored in the financial system.


Nah....

that'd never work here. :upeyes:

devildog2067
04-29-2013, 07:38
And Iceland didn't have 1/4 of their people on generational welfare.

No... they have EVERYONE on "welfare" in the form of universal health care. It's a Nordic-style welfare state, the social assistance is quite generous. They give child subsidies and daycare subsidies and family assistance and social insurance and everything else.

devildog2067
04-29-2013, 07:52
The problem seems to be in our current era, according to many in this very thread, that they DO understand the the rank injustice of our money and banking system, but can't be bothered to even raise a voice in protest.

What about the problem of people who flatly make incorrect statements, and ignore it when people point that out?

Your opinion can't be informed if your facts are wrong. It's that simple.

Z71bill
04-29-2013, 08:01
Again, I'll ask:

What do you want us to do?

To whom do we direct our wrath? Congress? The President? The bankers? Which bankers or all bankers?

Congress isn't going to do anything. The electorate doesn't care. Now, what?

Revolution? Uprising? Against whom? If it's the .gov too many people dependent on it from welfare to retirement.

Tell us.

If you can't beat them join them.

I use to hate it when gas prices went up -

I now own stock in 2 different oil companies - (COP & CVX)

Not only do they pay me (on average) 4% in dividends -- when the price oil and gas go up - so does the value of my stock.

devildog2067
04-29-2013, 08:08
Iceland told the banks to pound sand. And Iceland’s economy is doing much better than virtually all of the countries which have let the banks push them around.

So again--this isn't even a little bit true. How has Iceland's economy done compared to the economy of the United States? Iceland had one quarter last year where their GDP shrunk by 6.4%. The US's GDP growth rate didn't dip below 1% in 2012.

I'm not at all trying to argue that bailing out the banks was the right thing to do or that there wasn't a better way out of the hole. If I had been in charge I would have gone with a different plan that resulted in a lot more banks going out of business. But there were real, logical, economic reasons that our government chose the path that it did, and arguably it's worked out ok.

On the other hand, Iceland has prosecuted the fraudster bank heads (and here and here) and their former prime minister, and their economy is recovering nicely … because trust is being restored in the financial system.

Nah....

that'd never work here.

It wouldn't, but I'm guessing that my telling you so isn't going to change what you choose to believe (just like my pointing out that gas prices are largely unchanged from five years ago hasn't seemed to change your belief that gas is now "twice as much as it was").

Iceland's economy is smaller than that of the smallest US state. You simply cannot extrapolate from Iceland to the largest economy in the world. The things that work there will not necessarily work here.

The prosecutions that Iceland is pursuing are for activity that was clearly criminal. Bank CEOs appear to (i.e., Iceland says they have written proof) have lent money to companies who turned around and used that money to buy bank shares. When an executive engages in activity that is unambiguously illegal, they get prosecuted--in Iceland, and here too. Ask Raj Rajaratnam or Rajat Gupta.

But being wrong isn't, a priori, evidence of criminal activity. A bank executive who makes bad bets isn't necessarily guilty of committing an illegal act, and even if he might be it's very very difficult to prove. It's like trying to prove a boxer took a dive--how do you prove that he didn't just lose? Without a written paper trail it's quite hard.

Glotin
04-29-2013, 09:12
First...

educate yourself. If you do some reading, you will find that the Federal Reserve Bank has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. It is a private, for profit entity that serves to manipulate monetary policy to the benefit of it's owners. Furthermore, the I.R.S. is nothing more than their strong arm, sopranos style, mob guy collectors.

If you educate yourself, and those are the conclusions you come to, you've done an incredibly poor job educating yourself.

1. The Federal Reserve has everything to do with the government. The board is appointed by the President and it is subject to congressional oversight.

2. Yes, it is technically private and "for profit"... the only thing is all of those profits are transferred to the US Treasury (which is a part of the government it supposedly has nothing to do with).

3. The IRS has nothing to do with the Fed.

I'm not an advocate of the Federal Reserve, but your "understanding" of it is wholly inaccurate.

BS.....

you have to be an utter fool to believe such nonsense.

Sure, if you have a job making 50 or 60 k, you can survive, but even in the last year the cost of feeding my family of 6 has gone up about 30%, but my wages certainly have not.

Gasoline is twice what it was five years ago. I still have to drive the same amount of miles a year, but unfortuneately cannot give myself a bump in wages to cover the difference in cost, my wages have not increased.

in 1968, I went to the dealership with my dad to pick up his new pontiac grand prix. Fully equipped SJ, 3580.00 out the door. At the time he was making about 9k a year. So it took about a third of his year's wages to pay for that car.

To make a similar comparion today, one would need to be making 120k per year.

Do you not understand fractional reserve banking??

This concept allows the bank to pull play money out of their asses (print it) lend it to countries like ours, and the banks you deal with, then charge you interest on their ****ing play money. And many people are perfectly content to sit by and let themselves get ****ed by these bastards who are destroying our future by taxing us to pay the interest on money that doesn't have any value.

I understand fractional reserve banking. You do not.

Are people with mortgages getting "****ed" by the banks?
Car loans?
Business loans?

Those come from loans on deposits. It's not play money, it's someone else's money. Yes, it adds to the money supply, but so what? That helps the economy.

I'd say most people are happy with their mortgages and car loans. Most entrepreneurs getting a business loan are very happy about it. Are you suggesting that those loans should only come from private lenders with their own funds? Lending would go down exponentially. Without fractional banking a bank can't lend money... so essentially there'd be no reason for them to exist. The only way for them to cover the costs associated with a checking account would be to charge much higher fees.

Your car analogy is also flawed. There are huge qualitative differences between a fully equipped car from 1968 and any car on the market today. You might be paying more, but you're also getting more, and adjusted for inflation you're paying a lot less relative to how much more you're getting.

Rabbi...

I am no economist, but I know what **** smells like, and this illusion that we call our economy smells.

It smells very much like the **** that happened that brought about the great depression that was kicked off by the market crash of 1929.

Though the crash is what is often blamed for the great depression, it was NOT the cause. The things that are common to the conditions that existed prior to that economic disaster and where we stand today is the ridiculous manipulation of monetary policy in the form of over abundant currency and credit.

The biggest factors in bringing about the crash, according to some, is that between 1921 and 1929 that the Fed increased the amount of currency within the economy (by printing more out of thin air) by almost 60 percent, which sent the stock market to heights never before seen (the roaring twenties), and expanded credit acces in the same way, which gave people a false sense of security in the american economy.

The main reason that the great depression lasted so long is the notion that by repeating the same behaviors, we would get a different result, namely that hoover increased spending on relief and subsidy programs, which increased governmetal spending as a percentage of GDP by almost a third in one year. (1930-1931) Sound familiar?

So with these current conditions, if it is not adjusted back down, it is going to go to **** and adjust itself.

When it all goes to hell, are you going to be ok with footing the bill to bail these "banks" out again knowing that they were playing fast and loose based on BS speculation?

Is it not like old AJ said that when they profit, they take that profit, but when they lose, you and I foot the bill?

How much further will it go or can it go when our currency has no basis in reality? There is no standard besides what a bunch of guys get together and arbitrarily decide. That is what the article originally posted was getting at.

So are we just supposed to sit by an allow this to happen, again??

Your understanding of the crash of 1929 and the great depression are literally opposite of what actually happened.

First of all, the economy was recovering very well from the crash of 1929 until the government started intervening on a massive scale, starting with the smoot-hawley tariffs.

The depression was brought about/worsened by the contraction of the money supply (what you're advocating), not monetary expansion. By 1933 the money supply had shrunk by 1/3 thanks to the Federal Reserve. The failure of the fed to increase the money supply was a huge contributing factor to the depth and length of the depression.

MaxxAction
04-29-2013, 11:01
Disinfo much??

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html

It has been ruled in open court that the frb is indeed a private corporation.

Here's some more history.

On December 23, 1913, the Federal Reserve Act, also known as the Glass-Owen Bill, was passed. The Republican controlled Senate rammed the bill through when many members of the US Congress were home for the holiday. The President, Dr. Thomas Woodrow Wilson, signed it into law one hour after being passed by the Congress! Somebody very powerful really wanted this law passed. The Federal Reserve System is an independent central bank. Although the President of the United States appoints the chairman of the Fed, and this appointment is approved by the United States Senate, the decisions of the Fed do not have to be ratified by the President, or anyone else in the executive branch of the United States government. Buried in the legislation was the granting of total power over the monetary policies of all US banks. A very curious statement is found in the original 1913 law. SEC. 30. The right to amend, alter, or repeal this Act is hereby expressly reserved. Reserved expressly to whom, or what? No definition is provided. This is the entire Section 30 statement! "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice".

Stock not held by member banks shall not be entitled to voting power. This clause guarantees
that no outsider can justify buying shares in the Federal Reserve. "But wait! There's more!"

Sec. 341 Second. To have succession for a period of twenty years from its organization unless it is sooner dissolved by an Act of Congress, or unless its franchise becomes forfeited by some violation of law. The Federal Reserve was only given a corporate life of 20 years! Their time was up in 1933 Who was President at that time? Franklin. D. Roosevelt, of course. Somehow, the Federal Reserve's termination did not occur. Reader, do I have your attention yet? My research failed to find any reauthorization of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, other than the tacit approval given by the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002.

No Senator or Representative in Congress shall be a member of the Federal Reserve Board or an officer or a director of a Federal reserve bank. No member of Congress is have access to the inner sanctum! Hello, what is this? Are they afraid that an American might come upon something untoward? 12 USC 3019 Federal reserve banks, including the capital stock and surplus therein, and the Income derived therefrom shall be exempt from Federal, State, and local taxation, except taxes upon real estate. People, I think we are a roll now.

SEC. 25.Any national banking association possessing a capital and surplus of 1,000,000 dollars or more may file application with the Federal ReserveBoard, upon such conditions and under such regulations as may be prescribed by the said board, for the purpose of securing authority to establish branches in foreign countries or dependencies of theUnited States for the furtherance of the foreign commerce of the United States, and to act, if required to do so, as fiscal agents of the United States. Such application shall specify, in addition tothe name and capital of the banking association filing it, the place or places where the bankingoperations proposed are to be carried on, and the amount of capital set aside for the conduct of its foreign business. The Federal Reserve Board shall have power to approve or to reject such application if, in its judgment, the amount of capital proposed to be set aside for the conduct of foreign business is inadequate, or if for other reasons the granting of such application is deemed inexpedient. Wow, the US government has no formal control over the foreign operations of the Federal reserve banks! The Federal reserve banks are exempt from all taxation. These people are very independent. Independent of audits, independent of congressional supervision, and independent of the American voter.

The Federal Reserve claims that nobody owns it – that it is an "independent entity within the
government." The Federal Reserve is subject to laws such as the Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act which cover Federal agencies but not private corporations; yet Congress gave the Federal Reserve the autonomy to carry out its responsibilities insulated from political pressure. Each of the Fed's three parts – the Board of Governors, the regional Reserve banks, and the Federal Open Market Committee – operates independently of the federal government to carry out the Fed's core responsibilities. Once a member of the Board of Governors is appointed, he or she can be as independent as a U.S. Supreme Court judge, though the term is shorter. As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by the Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. (The Fed's financial independence arises because it is hugely profitable due to its ownership of government bonds. (It gives the government billions of dollars each year.) However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by the Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government.

The only statements of ownership made by the Federal Reserve Board is an allusion to the twelve Federal district banks. This circle puts us back at the beginning, for no information is provided regarding the ownership of the twelve Federal district banks. However, a 1976 government study commissioned by the Federal Reserve Directors revealed the following:


OWNERSHIP OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE Most Americans, if they know anything at all about the Federal Reserve, believe it is an agency of the United States Government. This article charts the true nature of the "National Bank." Chart 1 Source: ** Federal Reserve Directors: A Study of Corporate and Banking Influence ** - - Published 1976 Chart 1 reveals the linear connection between the Rothschilds and the Bank of England, and the London banking houses which ultimately control the Federal Reserve Banks through their stockholdings of bank stock and their subsidiary firms in New York. The two principal Rothschild representatives in New York, J. P. Morgan Co., and Kuhn, Loeb & Co. were the firms which set up the Jekyll Island Conference at which the Federal Reserve Act was drafted, who directed the subsequent successful campaign to have the plan enacted into law by Congress, and who purchased the controlling amounts of stock in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York in 1914. These firms had their principal officers appointed to the Federal Reserve Board of Governors and the Federal Advisory Council in 1914. In 1914 a few families (blood or business related) owning controlling stock in existing banks (such as in New York City) caused those banks to purchase controlling shares in the Federal Reserve regional banks. Examination of the charts and text in the House Banking Committee Staff Report of August, 1976 and the current stockholders list of the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks show this same family control.


George Bush presided over a minor change in the Federal Reserve Act. The Sarbanes-OxleyAct was passed in 2002. The American Congress failed again to deal with the Federal Reserve. Bush managed to keep all discussion and changes confined to some reporting requirements for financial institutions. Bush knows very well who he serves, and he really serves his master well. It's amazing how few grasped the significance of Alan Greenspan being knighted by the Queen of England! Greenspan was knighted on September 26, 2002. An obvious reward for preventing any real discussion, or change, of the Federal Reserve during the Sarbanes-Oxley Act debates. Had an American President been knighted, serious questions would have arisen. It was so each easier to reward her manager, Alan! Do you still believe that Alan Greenspan has the power of Dearth Vader? He is only a little man, faithfully serving his queen.

The British Crown, or the British monarchy is the owner of the Federal Reserve. This is their real secret. The strategy of the Federal Reserve is their other secret. Again, it is right of front of us, but no one sees the obvious. The strategy of the Federal Reserve is to accumulate all the wealth through the very slow, but effective, technique of currency debasement. The monarchs of old used to shave or clip the coins as they passed through their treasuries. Now the process is more sanitary (no more clipping and scraping all those dirty coins). John Maynard Keynes clearly stated that at there is no more effective method of destroying a society than through currency debasement.

The primary reason for its success is the inability of most people to understand that more is not necessarily better. A recent conversation highlighted Kenyes's observation. There is some agitation to raise the minimum wage in my state. I listened to a proponent of a higher minimum wage. I attempted to point out that an increase in a large number of people's income would only result in prices going up, along with the obvious tax increases. "What was I talking about?" was the response. I explained that some percentage of people might wind up dealing with tax bracket creep (increases), and all will have with the obligatory tax increases that follow from any price increase. If nothing else, the sales tax must go up because the prices have gone up. I was immediately informed that I was the most negative person they had ever talked to.

The Federal Reserve will always debase the currency to take its cut, and guarantee that the government has a tax base available to feed its bureaucratic family. The government is a total slave of the Federal Reserve. For example, analyze the latest real estate boom. There will be a major boost in property taxes based on the new valuations. Many people will be surprised when they receive their new tax bill. This will guarantee more money for the government coffers. They know that people will do almost anything to keep their homes. What's another job or two per family? Besides, the extra job will provide more tax revenue for the government. This will require more day care, or baby-sitting services for many families, which create more income for the government. This will cause more meals to be eaten out, which creates more revenue for the government Meanwhile, prices will continue to go up, which creates more sales tax revenue for the government. Are you getting the point yet? Deflation is end of the government. The local, state, and federal government will all fail!

This is the strategy of the Federal Reserve. The majority of the people will always believe that more is better. Knowing that, and now having a democracy ensconced in the US, it was time to feed and breed. Prices always go up, and everything is "Wunnerful, Wunnerful" Bring on the Champagne Lady. Alan runs the bubble machine. The illusion of money has destroyed most people since society (goverment) developed socialism. Democracy feeds on the illusion of something for nothing. As each demagogue promises more than his competition, the tax burden becomes oppressive. The monetary illusion serves to conceal the costs through currency debasement. This assures the complete destruction of the society that embraces this perversion. Any attempt to introduce logic into a dialogue will be defeated by claiming you're an elitist devoid of compassion. Envy, hate, and manipulated passions are the hallmark of democracies. While all this destruction is occurring, money diverted by the mechanism of currency debasement is constantly being transferred to the British Crown in the City of London.

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php

As far as the great depression, no ****. Who shrunk the currency supply after expanding it to record heights over the previous 6 years? The same federal reserve you seem eager to defend as a scrupulous, legitimate, goverment entity.

A quote by Curtis Dall, son in law of FDR

For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas that were his own to benefit this country, the United States. But, he didn't. Most of his thoughts, his political ammunition, as it were, were carefully manufactured for him in advanced by the Council on Foreign Relations-One World Money group. Brilliantly, with great gusto, like a fine piece of artillery, he exploded that prepared "ammunition" in the middle of an unsuspecting target, the American people, and thus paid off and returned his internationalist political support.

The UN is but a long-range, international banking apparatus clearly set up for financial and economic profit by a small group of powerful One-World revolutionaries, hungry for profit and power.

The depression was the calculated 'shearing' of the public by the World Money powers, triggered by the planned sudden shortage of supply of call money in the New York money market....The One World Government leaders and their ever close bankers have now acquired full control of the money and credit machinery of the U.S. via the creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank.

427
04-29-2013, 11:21
Did anybody read the above post? I didn't.

But again, I'll ask:

What do you want us to do?

To whom do we direct our wrath? Congress? The President? The bankers? Which bankers or all bankers?

Congress isn't going to do anything. The electorate doesn't care. Now, what?

Revolution? Uprising? Against whom? If it's the .gov too many people dependent on it from welfare to retirement.

Tell us.

airmotive
04-29-2013, 11:23
I keep scrolling and scrolling....it never ends!

If you can't summarize your thoughts in less than six inches, you need to rethink. Any post that runs from the top of my screen to the bottom, I assume to be fanatical ramblings.

Just to ensure my assumptions are correct, I will sometimes read such ramblings....and invariably, they prove to be fanatical ramblings that never seem to get to a point, but have TONS of never-ending circular logic that never quite offers tangible proof, only innuendo and conspiracy.

If anyone bothers to read that, could you let me know if I'm on the right track?

MtBaldy
04-29-2013, 11:31
Wow, and I had been skipping over this thinking it would be no fun!

This is mainly a tag but I will say one thing about letting the banks fail:

I would be all for letting the banks fail IF they were solely responsible for setting their own policies. The problem is the government is guilty of COERCING the banks into adopting lending practices they knew would lead to defaults for decades. Get the government out of forcing banks to follow bad lending practices in the name of political correctness and diversity before throwing them to the wolves.

Oh, and as far as the Federal Reserve goes? I'll be fully onboard as soon as I can go out and a new roll of tinfoil.

Highspeedlane
04-29-2013, 11:33
Tell that to the people of Iceland who threw the crooked bankers who destroyed their economy in prison, they fired the government who helped them loot the country, wrote off all illegal debt as odious debt and now their economy fully recovered and they are doing very well. But shhh! Don't tell the serfs here, you wouldn't want them getting the same idea and picking up their torches and pitchforks. Instead, let's sell the idea of more bail outs and looting of their savings account like they are doing in Cyprus.

You are completely correct. I spent a few months in Iceland in the winter of 2004 and was very impressed by their sense of nationalism. We seem to have adopted the notion that we are to have our borders wide open to anyone (much to our detriment often) while Iceland imposes very strict immigration rules that virtually preclude them from eventually becoming a banana republic as we are determined to become.

I stopped by an Icelandic shop outside Reykjavik and asked the shop keeper what he thought about US style influence there and he said his main objection was that Icelandic youth were adopting our tendency to eat all sorts of garbage for snacks in defiance of traditional Icelandic dietary staples (fish, fish and more fish).

A very sensible and scenic nation. Too bad we can't adopt some of their common sense attitudes.

Glotin
04-29-2013, 11:34
What I posted above are facts, not disinformation. How you "feel" doesn't change the reality you've clearly lost touch with.

I'm not going to read all of that nonsense. Formulate your own opinions and express them. Numerous real facts have been brought up in the discourse which you have ignored.

I said in my post, if you read it, that yes, the Fed is technically private. I acknowledged that. I also pointed out that there is a great deal of oversight by the government. I also mentioned that they transfer all of their "profits" to the US Treasury. You said the Fed has "nothing to do with the US government"; that is completely wrong and shows your ignorance.

I also said in my post, if you read it, that I am not an advocate of the fed. Your characterization of it is completely wrong though. One doesn't have to support the fed in order to accept the facts regarding it.

Again, I'm not trying to defend the fed. They are a "legitimate government entity" whether you like it or not. I'd also say they are scrupulous; their policies might be misguided but they aren't trying to "shear" anyone.

Glotin
04-29-2013, 11:37
If you can't summarize your thoughts in less than six inches, you need to rethink. Any post that runs from the top of my screen to the bottom, I assume to be fanatical ramblings.

Those aren't his thoughts; he can't formulate an opinion of his own. He just copy/pasted the ramblings of someone else.

Glocksanity
04-29-2013, 19:22
What Iceland did was right. It would have been wrong to burden future generations with the mistakes of the financial system.

As much as it would be good to let the TBTF's fail like they did in Iceland, the truth is that it can't happen for this simple reason. A quadrillion dollar derivative nightmare would unfold because the US Dollar is the world's reserve currency. So, the Central Bankers are just kicking the can down the road until they re-institute Gold as the world's reserve currency, albeit at a much higher price, probably around $50K, give or take $20K.

This is why the Euro was created, with gold on its booked, marked to market, not to some ridiculous amount like the US does.

The day is getting closer. Get gold while you can. It is going to be the greatest wealth transfer ever seen in such a short period of time.

Ha ha ha! Gold FTW!

ezthumper
04-29-2013, 19:38
Did anybody read the above post? I didn't.

But again, I'll ask:

What do you want us to do?

To whom do we direct our wrath? Congress? The President? The bankers? Which bankers or all bankers?

Congress isn't going to do anything. The electorate doesn't care. Now, what?

Revolution? Uprising? Against whom? If it's the .gov too many people dependent on it from welfare to retirement.

Tell us.

He won't because he has no clue, because all he has is...




http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n597/ezthumper01/2mcu1g_zps34a02045.gif (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/ezthumper01/media/2mcu1g_zps34a02045.gif.html)

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-29-2013, 19:50
Did anybody read the above post? I didn't.


I'm not really replying to your entire post, but merely using your question as a framework for my next post.

I always read all posts before replying. I'll also read someone's article, unless they just post a link without explanation. The rate at which I read depends upon the author/poster. The linked articles can often be no more or no less factual or drivel than some of the things posted by GT members (not saying 427's posts are drivel, but just answering his question).

It has however, been a decent discussion so far.

MaxxAction
04-29-2013, 19:50
He won't because he has no clue, because all he has is...




http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n597/ezthumper01/2mcu1g_zps34a02045.gif (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/ezthumper01/media/2mcu1g_zps34a02045.gif.html)

Nice....

Your humor is so witty and original, or not...

Y'all do whatever the **** you want to do. I guess you have to decide if you are ok allowing these crooked bastards to rob you blind over and over again, or if you are willing to speak out about it. I guess if you are ok letting it happen again, good for you....

MaxxAction
04-29-2013, 19:54
As much as it would be good to let the TBTF's fail like they did in Iceland, the truth is that it can't happen for this simple reason. A quadrillion dollar derivative nightmare would unfold because the US Dollar is the world's reserve currency. So, the Central Bankers are just kicking the can down the road until they re-institute Gold as the world's reserve currency, albeit at a much higher price, probably around $50K, give or take $20K.

This is why the Euro was created, with gold on its booked, marked to market, not to some ridiculous amount like the US does.

The day is getting closer. Get gold while you can. It is going to be the greatest wealth transfer ever seen in such a short period of time.

Ha ha ha! Gold FTW!

Good luck with that...

some are saying that Fort Knox has already been looted, and that is why the FED will not allow itself to be audited, even though there hasn't been an audit since 1953. It will be interesting to see if it is true.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-29-2013, 19:58
The trains of thought in this thread have basically run functional vs. conflict. The conflict theorist's opinion, in general, is no more or less based on facts than the functional theorist's opinion. It's the concept of two people seeing the same information and reaching different conclusions through interpretation.

The funtionalist's competition can degrade into the conflict theorist's conflict. The functionalist sees the competition between industrial captains, while the conflict theorist sees the conflict of the Indian Wars. The functionalist observes the sport in our country's robust antebellum growth, whereas the conflict theorist observes slavery as the illegal 12 men on the field.*

These examples are integral in discussing America's growth; however, if you think I'm just tapping into historical guilt, then pick your own issue. The discussion of what exists vs.what should be is actually a conversation regarding the existence or nonexistence of logical proofs in moral realism.

So, is the game rigged? Guess it depends on who you ask. America might still be number one in some eyes;however, one might consider that our country began its decline less than one decade after its post-WWII, undisputed dominance. There are the easy equations of 2+2, but there are also various degrees of interpretation in looking at the data and results of more complex equations.



*Most of the conflict theorists I know lean towards controlled economies. They take issue with my free market approach, and my emphasizing that man's imperfect nature is actually more detrimental in a controlled economy. That however, is a discussion for another thread.

ezthumper
04-29-2013, 20:07
Nice....

Your humor is so witty and original, or not...

Y'all do whatever the **** you want to do. I guess you have to decide if you are ok allowing these crooked bastards to rob you blind over and over again, or if you are willing to speak out about it. I guess if you are ok letting it happen again, good for you....

If you have a solution to the problem let's hear what you have in mind, if you don't you are nothing more than a wind sock randomly flapping around.

Now get with it or take a laxative.