Maybe the coolest/most impressive accomplishment by scientific man......... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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.264 magnum
04-29-2013, 21:07
http://news.yahoo.com/mars-rover-opportunity-slips-standby-mode-nasa-says-002354041.html



Unfriggin' believable.

Cali-Glock
04-29-2013, 21:37
The golf-cart-size Opportunity landed on Mars more than nine years ago along with its twin, Spirit, on a three-month mission to search for signs of past water activity on the Red Planet.

Am I reading this correctly? Still going strong thirty-six times the planed life expectancy?

Just the initial goals were pretty darn impressive.

m2hmghb
04-29-2013, 21:49
Am I reading this correctly? Still going strong thirty-six times the planed life expectancy?

Just the initial goals were pretty darn impressive.


And people wonder why they should buy American :whistling:

BEER
04-29-2013, 21:58
why do we care if there was ever water on mars?

m2hmghb
04-29-2013, 22:03
why do we care if there was ever water on mars?

Because it can indicate whether or not it can sustain life.

NeverMore1701
04-29-2013, 22:07
I'll go ahead and get the next question out if the way...

"Why do we care if it can sustain life?"

Detectorist
04-29-2013, 22:14
why do we care if there was ever water on mars?

One needs water to make beer. Duh

Cubdriver
04-29-2013, 22:16
That is pretty amazing!

-Pat

.264 magnum
04-29-2013, 22:25
I'll go ahead and get the next question out if the way...

"Why do we care if it can sustain life?"

Really now?

Ronny
04-29-2013, 22:30
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

Jakestir
04-29-2013, 22:35
why do we care if there was ever water on mars?

Simply put "when a civilization stops exploring it dies."

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Rabbi
04-29-2013, 22:41
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

For what it is worth, that is a claim like a "95% of doctors surveyed said...." (people read it to mean sometihng but that isnt what it actually means)...anyways.


Bechtel could probably build one twice the size in a few year.

While it is a stunning feet of ancient engineering, stacking blocks isnt real complicated for modern technology and engineering. I.E. Without a doubt, there are dozens of construction companies who could build great pyramids today in about the same time it takes to build other major construction projects.

It is not an engineering question at all, it is a funding question.

jtmac
04-29-2013, 22:44
why do we care if there was ever water on mars?

There's the possibility of finding new life or finding a place that could sustain our own life. But these are just peripheral reasons.

The real reason is that flinging a golf cart through space and taking pictures is totally sweet and mega rad. Add a drill to the golf cart and that is off the hook.

Aw, yeah. Science.

NeverMore1701
04-29-2013, 22:46
Really now?

Not my question, just one that always pops up here.

silentpoet
04-29-2013, 23:31
I don't know if it exactly fits scientific, but surely great feats of engineering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_monoliths_in_the_world

Some of those stones would not easily be moved today.

.264 magnum
04-29-2013, 23:35
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

That's just silly.

.264 magnum
04-29-2013, 23:36
Not my question, just one that always pops up here.

I know I was just funnin' with you.

Rabbi
04-29-2013, 23:42
I don't know if it exactly fits scientific, but surely great feats of engineering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_monoliths_in_the_world

Some of those stones would not easily be moved today.

Eh, Hydraulics will easily load any one of those onto something like the NASA crawler-transport and you could drive them accross the country if you wanted.

Ronny
04-30-2013, 00:19
For what it is worth, that is a claim like a "95% of doctors surveyed said...." (people read it to mean sometihng but that isnt what it actually means)...anyways.


Bechtel could probably build one twice the size in a few year.

While it is a stunning feet of ancient engineering, stacking blocks isnt real complicated for modern technology and engineering. I.E. Without a doubt, there are dozens of construction companies who could build great pyramids today in about the same time it takes to build other major construction projects.

It is not an engineering question at all, it is a funding question.

I know, its a little tongue in cheek jest. I enjoy the Ancient Aliens series and download all the new ones. I can never get over how they say things like "How did ancient people ever learn to stack up stones, they are big stones." Stacking rocks up is a far cry from interplanetary rocketry. Next time I'll post the winking eye smilie.

TK-421
04-30-2013, 00:21
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

The only reason we can't replicate it today, is because not enough people would want to pay for it.

However, I do believe that we highly underestimate what ancient civilizations were capable of, which is why people have come up with the theory about aliens, instead of admitting that we don't realize just how smart ancient civilizations were.

Thanks to the dark ages, I consider us pretty dang dumb in comparison to what ancient civilizations were capable of with the tools they had.

Ronny
04-30-2013, 03:14
Thanks to the dark ages, I consider us pretty dang dumb in comparison to what ancient civilizations were capable of with the tools they had.

I wholeheartedly agree. Instead of wondering if pyramids were built by aliens or alien gods we should ask why todays men doubt the innovativeness of men of our same species just a few thousand years ago.

Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. -Archimedes

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 03:30
Mars is red. Uh... yeah.


The only reason we can't replicate it today, is because not enough people would want to pay for it. ...
The wisdom seems to have passed away. Let's say that money was not a factor, but that a replica had to built in the same way and method as used for the original. Think it could be done?

I seem to recall part of a useless fact that the material used to build the Great Pyramid could form a wall around Texas eight feet high. I forget the thickness right off hand.
... However, I do believe that we highly underestimate what ancient civilizations were capable of, which is why people have come up with the theory about aliens, instead of admitting that we don't realize just how smart ancient civilizations were. ...
You make a valid point concerning what people have been capable of in the past.

Tiro Fijo
04-30-2013, 03:37
All this is for naught without an incredible breakthrough in propulsion to make interstellar travel possible. NASA know this and yet continues its veritable dog & pony show to justify a budget. Scientists know that in the long run fate will win and a life ending disaster will happen eventually and our only hope is to get off this rock to another suitable planet. Without a gargantuan leap in technology, i.e., propulsion, we are doomed.

I often wonder that if Science had the money Hollywood throws away on infantile BS, e.g., Transformers, Iron Man, etc., we could harness something real. Alas, we'll probably be trapped on this rock unto the next E.L.E., perhaps never even making it to a Level I on the Kardashev scale.

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 03:43
... Alas, we'll probably be trapped on this rock unto the next E.L.E., perhaps never even making it to a Level I on the Kardashev scale.
I may be mistaken, but I thought our solar system was a level I.

stevelyn
04-30-2013, 04:10
I'll go ahead and get the next question out if the way...

"Why do we care if it can sustain life?"


Because survival of the human race is going to be dependent on our ability to get off this planet. For that to happen, we have to start the pioneering of how to get off the planet now.

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 04:13
Because survival of the human race is going to be dependent on our ability to get off this planet. For that to happen, we have to start the pioneering of how to get off the planet now.
(emphasis mine)

So chicken little was right? The sky really is falling huh?

airmotive
04-30-2013, 04:19
All this is for naught without an incredible breakthrough in propulsion to make interstellar travel possible. NASA know this and yet continues its veritable dog & pony show to justify a budget. Scientists know that in the long run fate will win and a life ending disaster will happen eventually and our only hope is to get off this rock to another suitable planet. Without a gargantuan leap in technology, i.e., propulsion, we are doomed.

I often wonder that if Science had the money Hollywood throws away on infantile BS, e.g., Transformers, Iron Man, etc., we could harness something real. Alas, we'll probably be trapped on this rock unto the next E.L.E., perhaps never even making it to a Level I on the Kardashev scale.

Really?
That's like saying the Wright brothers were wasting their time with the B Flyer, when they should have been developing the F-22.
Reach for the stars, but grab what you can reach.

Ronny
04-30-2013, 04:29
Because survival of the human race is going to be dependent on our ability to get off this planet. For that to happen, we have to start the pioneering of how to get off the planet now.

Why do you think Earth is not a good home for humans? Mother Earth gives us her abundance as we sow our seeds in her.

All species go extinct. And certainly our present state of evolution is not much different than other apes. The universe can do much better. The continued existence of the human species of of no particular value.

canis latrans
04-30-2013, 04:29
Because survival of the human race is going to be dependent on our ability to get off this planet. For that to happen, we have to start the pioneering of how to get off the planet now.


who's to say that five Earth minutes after the last Earth survivors land on Terra II, an asteroid doesn't plow into them?

there are no guarantees in life, son.

DanaT
04-30-2013, 04:35
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25.

Slave labor would allow us to build it faster than slave labor did then especially when we dont worry about worker injury.

DanaT
04-30-2013, 04:39
Some of the spin off technology from the Mars rover is very useful. In fact the main technology that is allowing it to run so long (the battery), has more applications than Mars rovers.

Ronny
04-30-2013, 04:40
Slave labor would allow us to build it faster than slave labor did then especially when we dont worry about worker injury.

Egyptologists maintain that no slaves were used in pyramid construction. They were free men and usually paid in the form of beer! A valuable currency but not one I associate with nourishing strong men for physical labor.

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 04:43
Some of the spin off technology from the Mars rover is very useful. In fact the main technology that is allowing it to run so long (the battery), has more applications than Mars rovers.
The mission times and expectancies are always severely underestimated. Makes them look good and also makes good fodder for the easily led in Congress as well as the public at large.

DanaT
04-30-2013, 04:45
Egyptologists maintain that no slaves were used in pyramid construction. They were free men and usually paid in the form of beer! A valuable currency but not one I associate with nourishing strong men for physical labor.

Free in the ancient world was relative. We would call most free people of the ancient world slaves.

gwalchmai
04-30-2013, 05:05
If the US hadn't squandered its resources on idiotic vote-buying programs like the "war on poverty" we'd have WalMarts on Mars by now.

stevelyn
04-30-2013, 05:23
(emphasis mine)

So chicken little was right? The sky really is falling huh?

Not falling, but we have now reached the 7 billion mark and it isn't likely to decrease without popping off a few nukes in the most populous regions of the world. All those living, breathing bodies require resources. Resources that we are using up at an increased rate. Earf has a finite supply. If we want more to meet our future needs, we have to look elsewhere.

Because it'll likely take a couple of generations, we have to start the pioneering now.

M&P Shooter
04-30-2013, 05:31
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7Lets see ancient man do this.....LOL!
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/Golden-Gate-Bridge-san-francisco-1020069_1024_768_zps09f9a4d9.jpg (http://s852.photobucket.com/user/Glock40guy/media/Golden-Gate-Bridge-san-francisco-1020069_1024_768_zps09f9a4d9.jpg.html)

Ronny
04-30-2013, 05:45
Lets see ancient man do this.....LOL!
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/Golden-Gate-Bridge-san-francisco-1020069_1024_768_zps09f9a4d9.jpg (http://s852.photobucket.com/user/Glock40guy/media/Golden-Gate-Bridge-san-francisco-1020069_1024_768_zps09f9a4d9.jpg.html)

Lets see which is still standing after 3,000 more years of zero maintenance. :whistling:

airmotive
04-30-2013, 06:22
Technology is a strange mistress.
We do not have the technology to build a Space Shuttle or put a man on the moon.
We used to. But it's gone.

That's why we never stop building submarines or aircraft carriers, even if we don't need any right now. If we stop, we loose the knowledge base, skills and tooling and countless little 'tricks' that we stumbled upon that made the whole thing possible.

gwalchmai
04-30-2013, 06:27
Technology is a strange mistress.
We do not have the technology to build a Space Shuttle or put a man on the moon.
We used to. But it's gone.True, and it's not a technology problem. It's a political problem. I don't think we as a society can fund the technology race while supporting the nonproductive half of the population.

arclight610
04-30-2013, 06:36
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

I could get alot done too if I had thousands of Jewish slaves at my disposal.

Rabbi
04-30-2013, 06:45
[B]

I seem to recall part of a useless fact that the material used to build the Great Pyramid could form a wall around Texas eight feet high. I forget the thickness right off hand.



Not even close. It would probably be a number under 10 miles. Not the thousands it would take to go around Texas.

F14Scott
04-30-2013, 06:45
Lets see which is still standing after 3,000 more years of zero maintenance. :whistling:
A 3,000-year, no-maintenance lifespan was not the design criteria of the GGB or any of the buildings of San Francisco.

While the pyramids were fantastic feats of labor, they are little more than stacks of stone blocks. If you were to stipulate a budget equivalent to millions upon millions of man-hours and billions upon billions of dollars (the rough equivalent of the pyramid projects), modern man could easily build things to last that long that would be far more complex than a pile of rocks.

Ronny
04-30-2013, 06:50
I could get alot done too if I had thousands of Jewish slaves at my disposal.

The best historical information shows that Hebrews were not slaves in middle kingdom Egypt as their mythology states. I had a history professor who passionately researched this subject. The best theory is that the Hebrews were a northern warrior tribe allied to Egypt and used to secure the northern border before becoming unruly and being expelled at which time they sacked a few towns (and that part is even consistent with the myth that they took a bunch of loot out of Egypt with them) while beating it out of the territory ahead of the main Egyptian armies.

Altaris
04-30-2013, 07:27
Slave labor would allow us to build it faster than slave labor did then especially when we dont worry about worker injury.

Beat me to it. When you have almost endless amounts of slave labor, and funds, you can build just about anything you want.
Being the king and having no over-site or regulations to follow doesn't hurt either.


If we used even a quarter of the money and manpower that we waste on welfare, on human space missions, we could have had a full colony on mars by now.

SC Tiger
04-30-2013, 07:28
If the US hadn't squandered its resources on idiotic vote-buying programs like the "war on poverty" we'd have WalMarts on Mars by now.

So - Mars is better off that we squandered the money then?:tongueout:

G36's Rule
04-30-2013, 07:33
I don't know if it exactly fits scientific, but surely great feats of engineering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_monoliths_in_the_world

Some of those stones would not easily be moved today.

Where do you folks come up with this silliness? We build Aircraft Carriers and oil tankers on dry dock and manage to move them.

Seriously people, the Ancients would think we were magical at the things we do routinely now.

F14Scott
04-30-2013, 07:43
Where do you folks come up with this silliness? We build Aircraft Carriers and oil tankers on dry dock and manage to move them.

Seriously people, the Ancients would think we were magical at the things we do routinely now.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke#Quotes_about_Clarke

Geko45
04-30-2013, 08:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4pn4a4a2lA

In 2010, the Dutch logistics company Mammoet moved an 850 ton steam turbine (that's 1.7 million pounds) 250 miles from the Port of Houston to Reisel, TX (near Waco) for installation in a power plant. It moved it at a rate of 10 miles per day over Texas public roads and bridges.

For comparison sake, the average stone block used in the Great Pyramid of Giza weighs only about 2.5 tons. It is estimated that in order to finish the Great Pyramid in 20 years that the Egyptians used a work force of about 20,000 men and moved 800 tons of stone per day.

This single logistics company with a few dozen people moved 850 tons across 10 miles for 25 days in a row. So, theoritically, if they won the contract for the logistics of the construction of an identical pyramid they could more than match the effort put forth by Egypt's work force of 20,000 men.

People need to get a grip on reality. What ancient cultures did with what they had is impressive, but it is doesn't even begin to match what we are capable of doing today.

capnjim01
04-30-2013, 08:19
I will have to consult with Dr Sheldon Cooper on this matter.

TK-421
04-30-2013, 09:09
The wisdom seems to have passed away. Let's say that money was not a factor, but that a replica had to built in the same way and method as used for the original. Think it could be done?

Well of course it could be done again. It was done before, it can be done again. It will just take a bit longer because we have nowhere near the practice that they did when they built it.

They had pyramid building down to a very exact science, because they had been doing it for generations upon generations. Give us that kind of experience, and we can do it in the same time, if given the same resources. Or give us longer to do it so we can figure out the best way to do it.

Geko45
04-30-2013, 09:22
They had pyramid building down to a very exact science, because they had been doing it for generations upon generations. Give us that kind of experience, and we can do it in the same time, if given the same resources. Or give us longer to do it so we can figure out the best way to do it.

I'm pretty sure we would have all the kinks worked out in the first year, so I don't even think the learning curve would have a significant impact on a 20 year project. It's not rocket science, it's just leverage and rope rigging and block and tackles, etc.

The real question is why would we do it that way when we have much better options available? Using five trucks of the type in my previous post we could move that amount of rock in five years instead of 20 and do it with a workforce of a few hundred as opposed to 20,000.

It's not "wisdom" to use obsolete techniques when better options are available.

(Not really directed towards you, just using your post to bounce off of to make my point.)

SC Tiger
04-30-2013, 09:31
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

Actually that is a sign of diminishing goals. Not many people know that the original plan was for a big square building. However, as they built they ran out of patience.

:tongueout:

gwalchmai
04-30-2013, 09:35
Also...

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/jp/image/1346/44/1346448027358.jpg

Geko45
04-30-2013, 09:37
Something more to think on. We are making cranes now that can move 100 tons in a single lift. Stacking 2.5 ton stones for a pyramid would be like playing with toy blocks.

http://youtu.be/03GJci7d1kg

Geko45
04-30-2013, 09:57
Another aspect of this thread tangent, the Egyptians and other ancient peoples did not adhere to the same safety standards that we do today. What was the cost in lives of building the Great Pyramid? I don't know, but I would think it would be far in excess of what we might consider acceptable today. If we were willing to accept a mortality rate similar to what they accepted back then, how much faster could we accomplish the same task? I'm not suggesting that we do this, just pointing out that it's not a straight up apples to apples comparison.

Back on topic, I think it's really cool that this rover is still operational after all this time on such a distant planet. Accomplishments like this give me hope for the human race.

BEER
04-30-2013, 09:58
we already built another great pyramid, but we did it out of glass. we also filled it with hotel rooms and gambling consessions, and did it smack dab in the middle of a town that is steady busy 24/7. oh, and we also installed the worlds brightest spot light at the top of it.

suck it ancient egyptians!!:tongueout:

gwalchmai
04-30-2013, 10:21
we already built another great pyramid, but we did it out of glass. we also filled it with hotel rooms and gambling consessions, and did it smack dab in the middle of a town that is steady busy 24/7. oh, and we also installed the worlds brightest spot light at the top of it.And ours is air conditioned.

DanaT
04-30-2013, 10:29
I like this story as one of my projects a while ago with working with one of the major technology suppliers on this project.

arclight610
04-30-2013, 10:35
Something more to think on. We are making cranes now that can move 100 tons in a single lift. Stacking 2.5 ton stones for a pyramid would be like playing with toy blocks.

http://youtu.be/03GJci7d1kg

Where I work, we pick up 220 ton locomotives and move them with cranes if need be,

airmotive
04-30-2013, 10:42
we already built another great pyramid, but we did it out of glass. we also filled it with hotel rooms and gambling consessions, and did it smack dab in the middle of a town that is steady busy 24/7. oh, and we also installed the worlds brightest spot light at the top of it.

suck it ancient egyptians!!:tongueout:

When you put the Jews in charge of the building pyramids, **** gets done right.

Never Nervous
04-30-2013, 10:54
There's the possibility of finding new life or finding a place that could sustain our own life. But these are just peripheral reasons.

The real reason is that flinging a golf cart through space and taking pictures is totally sweet and mega rad. Add a drill to the golf cart and that is off the hook.

Aw, yeah. Science.

I doubt there is life out there. If so, we would have gone and destroyed their habitat, and be giving them foreign aid by now.::D

NN

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certifiedfunds
04-30-2013, 11:29
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

That's a load of bull. Its a pile of blocks. We have BRIDGES today that dwarf it in terms of engineering and construction.

Plus, they had slaves. You can do a lot with slaves.

wjv
04-30-2013, 11:32
Bechtel could probably build one twice the size in a few year.



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/bcvojak/RVNet3/Luxor01_zps4ff6308e.jpg

Rabbi
04-30-2013, 11:59
Something more to think on. We are making cranes now that can move 100 tons in a single lift. Stacking 2.5 ton stones for a pyramid would be like playing with toy blocks.

http://youtu.be/03GJci7d1kg

Yep. This thread had me run to look at specs for construction cranes.

A few of those could stack a modern pyramid as fast as the stones could be brought to them.

Building a modern great pyramid really wouldnt take much or very long. All that is needed is the proper application of money.

Rabbi
04-30-2013, 12:02
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/bcvojak/RVNet3/Luxor01_zps4ff6308e.jpg

Pretty much...

DanaT
04-30-2013, 12:03
Building a modern great pyramid really wouldnt take much or very long. All that is needed is the proper application of money.

We have even solved that problem. Deficit spending and devaluation of a fiat currency!!

WarCry
04-30-2013, 12:27
In 2010, the Dutch logistics company Mammoet moved an 850 ton steam turbine (that's 1.7 million pounds) 250 miles from the Port of Houston to Reisel, TX (near Waco) for installation in a power plant.

For comparison sake, the average stone block used in the Great Pyramid of Giza weighs only about 2.5 tons.

I'll go a step further, since someone already mentioned NASA's crawler...

The crawler itself weighs in at over 3,200 tons. When the current overhaul of Crawler 2 is done, it will carry a 5,000+ ton launch vehicle and a 2,000+ ton SLS (unfueled weight) for a combined weight of over 10,600 tons moving across the ground to the launch pad.

That's TWENTY-ONE MILLION pounds, compared to (by the above-noted weight) roughly 5,000 pounds of the pyramid blocks.

I think moving a coupla big rocks around could be arranged.

Source: http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/ground/crawler-transporter_bearings.html

Tiro Fijo
04-30-2013, 12:54
This thread is living testimony as to why we probably never will attain interstellar space travel. As Simians we are easily distracted by anything new & novel, i.e., the thread has evolved into a discussion of super cranes, not unlike monkeys with a new shiney object. :whistling:

:rofl:

silentpoet
04-30-2013, 16:09
Still couldn't easily move the 16000 ton stele base in that chinese quarry, They got overly ambitious when they cut that rock. I am sure lots of the bigger stones/monoliths could be moved today, but it would take some doing even with modern technology. That is why I find it impressive that without modern technology they managed to move stuff like the thunder stone(1500 tons over about 4 miles). I am not implying it had to be aliens like the crazy hair dude from the history channel. However, I do believe it does indicate great human ingenuity to move such large rocks without the help of modern engines, hydraulics, materials such as cable etc. That is why I consider it very cool.

hogfish
04-30-2013, 16:15
why do we care if there was ever water on mars?

If there was water, there was BEER. We have beer because we have water, right? :beer:

Ironbar
04-30-2013, 16:44
I'll go ahead and get the next question out if the way...

"Why do we care if it can sustain life?"

So humans can one day colonize it. Duh.

DanaT
04-30-2013, 16:51
As Simians we are easily distracted by anything new & novel, i.e., the thread has evolved into a discussion of super cranes, not unlike monkeys with a new shiney object. :whistling:

:rofl:


It's like watching a group of chimpanzees turn on each other over a banana...:rofl:

Seems like a monkey fetish lately...

DanaT
04-30-2013, 16:52
If there was water, there was BEER. We have beer because we have water, right? :beer:

Beer is a very bad thing. I quit drinking beer.

Altaris
04-30-2013, 17:05
Moving 14,350tons :wow:

Mammoet makes Guiness Book of Records - YouTube




And you know what the key common theme is between all of this? Ancient pyramids, huge cranes, huge movers, space flight, and the mars rovers..... MATH.
Without the basic understanding of math, none of the things talked about in this thread would be possible.

DanaT
04-30-2013, 17:06
MATH.
Without the basic understanding of math, none of the things talked about in this thread would be possible.

I can add 2+2

RonS
04-30-2013, 17:09
We know more, we aren't smarter.

airmotive
04-30-2013, 17:30
We know more, we aren't smarter.

That's a deep thought right there.
I don't know if it was intended to be....but it was.
Okay...it could also use a semicolon...but that kinda emphasizes the point.

Ronny
04-30-2013, 17:35
Actually that is a sign of diminishing goals. Not many people know that the original plan was for a big square building. However, as they built they ran out of patience.

:tongueout:

Sir, you have made me laugh out loud and brought a wide smile to my face. :wavey:

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 18:25
Not even close. It would probably be a number under 10 miles. Not the thousands it would take to go around Texas.
While I admit I an wholly relying on remembered factoids, NO, it is eight feet high and some dimension thick. Or, I was lied to, which may not be outside of the totality of truth.

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 18:32
Well of course it could be done again. It was done before, it can be done again. It will just take a bit longer because we have nowhere near the practice that they did when they built it.

They had pyramid building down to a very exact science, because they had been doing it for generations upon generations. Give us that kind of experience, and we can do it in the same time, if given the same resources. Or give us longer to do it so we can figure out the best way to do it.

So then your previous posting(s), and most specifically this one in particular, are dichotomies. (?)


See, I only went with your INITIAL premise and now you seem to have changed your entire, INITIAL paradigm IN LIEU OF THE FACT OF THAT you were wrong initially. Okay, I will defer, to your being wrong, and instead agree with your "second premise" of being wrong (in the first place).

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 18:36
Also...

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/jp/image/1346/44/1346448027358.jpg
Oh wait..................... that alien meme guy. :whistling:

Well now, this is an entirely new perspective! :whistling:

In summation, if Okie says its OKAY, then I'll say its Okay.

So let it be written, and so let it be done, if the mayor speaks okay, then so will I! :supergrin:

Ronny
04-30-2013, 18:36
While I admit I an wholly relying on remembered factoids, NO, it is eight feet high and some dimension thick. Or, I was lied to, which may not be outside of the totality of truth.

There are at least 2,500,000 stones in the great pyramid that are of the size of two to three tons each. Then there are a smaller number of larger stones. Two and a half million three ton stones would build a heck of a big wall but Texas is also a heck of a big state with a long and oddly shaped border. It might have been someones back of an envelope calculation or might have been a scolars calculation. I'm curious to see the math, but not particularly hopeful that I'll actually find out.

OldSchool64
04-30-2013, 18:37
Here's one way cool accomplishment in progress, Hollywood Style.


Movie Armageddon - Monster Armadillo - YouTube

Peace Warrior
04-30-2013, 18:43
Beer is a very bad thing. I quit drinking beer.
Well, to paraphrase/quote my Uncle Leon, beer is most equal to horse piss.


OTOH, if you like shrimp, or shellfish, then beer is some of the greatest "BOILING water" to be had on this planet. His directions called for three minutes, when I showed him that 3 minutes was too long, and shellfish were better served just as they "curled hard," it took him like 5.5 seconds to realize I was right. Three minutes is way too long for most shrimp!


BTW- Hey folks, if your boiling shrimp, when it folds "hard over," it ready to eat!

silentpoet
04-30-2013, 19:02
Moving 14,350tons :wow:

Mammoet makes Guiness Book of Records - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqPoQD3vOZE)




And you know what the key common theme is between all of this? Ancient pyramids, huge cranes, huge movers, space flight, and the mars rovers..... MATH.
Without the basic understanding of math, none of the things talked about in this thread would be possible.


9 out of 5 people are bad at math, not sure about the other 2.

aplcr0331
04-30-2013, 19:21
How were the pyramids of egypt really built - Part 1 - YouTube

Dennis in MA
04-30-2013, 19:29
For what it is worth, that is a claim like a "95% of doctors surveyed said...." (people read it to mean sometihng but that isnt what it actually means)...anyways.


Bechtel could probably build one twice the size in a few year.

While it is a stunning feet of ancient engineering, stacking blocks isnt real complicated for modern technology and engineering. I.E. Without a doubt, there are dozens of construction companies who could build great pyramids today in about the same time it takes to build other major construction projects.

It is not an engineering question at all, it is a funding question.

True. To some extent. By the time they built th great pyramid, thy knew the logistics of building one. We have to start from scratch. Could Bechtel build one in 2 years? I dunno. We are 12 yrs past Sept 11 and the Freedom tower is just being finished.

So for permitting, figuring out logistics, arguing over size and union dues, I bet 15 years.

Am I reading this correctly? Still going strong thirty-six times the planed life expectancy?

Just the initial goals were pretty darn impressive.

You wonder where those engines that run on a thimble full of gasoline that the goverment stole went, huh? They didn't bury it to make Exxon more money, they are using it on Mars.

.264 magnum
04-30-2013, 19:39
There are at least 2,500,000 stones in the great pyramid that are of the size of two to three tons each. Then there are a smaller number of larger stones. Two and a half million three ton stones would build a heck of a big wall but Texas is also a heck of a big state with a long and oddly shaped border. It might have been someones back of an envelope calculation or might have been a scolars calculation. I'm curious to see the math, but not particularly hopeful that I'll actually find out.

I did this on a bar napkin waiting for a beer - so the chances of grotesque math errors are high.

The great pyramid is 92,017,296 ft3 more or less, I think.

If the fence in question is 8 ft wide and 8 ft. tall our pyramid contains enough rock for a fence ~272 miles long. (92,017,296/64 = 1,437,770 ft/5,280 = ~272 miles)

If the fence is 1ft wide and 8ft wide the fence would be 2,178 miles long. That's still not enough as the perimeter of Texas, most conservative numbers, is 2,850 miles.

Frankly, I'm surprised the pyramid contains that many cubic feet of rock.

Peace Warrior
05-01-2013, 02:33
I did this on a bar napkin waiting for a beer - so the chances of grotesque math errors are high.

The great pyramid is 92,017,296 ft3 more or less, I think.

If the fence in question is 8 ft wide and 8 ft. tall our pyramid contains enough rock for a fence ~272 miles long. (92,017,296/64 = 1,437,770 ft/5,280 = ~272 miles)

If the fence is 1ft wide and 8ft wide the fence would be 2,178 miles long. That's still not enough as the perimeter of Texas, most conservative numbers, is 2,850 miles.

Frankly, I'm surprised the pyramid contains that many cubic feet of rock.
Okay, I spoke (on the phone) with the "savant" that plugged that factoid into my brain some years ago. Without the benefit of doing the math myself, he was not including the coastal border, just the borders with other States. He advised his calculations show it could easily be 8 feet high, and 1.5 feet thick, which is roughly equal to the height and width of a brick retaining wall on his property.


(PUHLEASE! PUHLEASE help me out and prove this guy wrong... No, he's not one of those "I'm always right" types, but he can be annoying by being right so dang much. :steamed: If you know what I mean... :faint: )

DanaT
05-01-2013, 03:01
So for permitting, figuring out logistics, arguing over size and union dues, I bet 15 years.

You forgot the environmental impact assessment.....

Q; How long will this thing last? At least 10K years...

A: Denied. It may be the way of a protected desert frog's migration path in 5000 years.

DanaT
05-01-2013, 03:03
Frankly, I'm surprised the pyramid contains that many cubic feet of rock.

It doesnt. It is hollow inside. If it they were not hollow, how would the armies of the undead live inside them?

Peace Warrior
05-01-2013, 03:12
...

A: Denied. It may be the way of a protected desert frog's migration path in 5000 years.
I LOL'd and thought of a 'recent' highway project and some stupid spider thingy... :rofl:

hey America, how high do you want your balls cut off? :supergrin:

happyguy
05-01-2013, 06:58
Egyptologists maintain that no slaves were used in pyramid construction. They were free men and usually paid in the form of beer! A valuable currency but not one I associate with nourishing strong men for physical labor.

Al Capone made money as a 12 y.o. running buckets of beer to construction workers on their lunch break. My, how times have changed.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

F14Scott
05-01-2013, 07:01
http://www.forkliftaction.com/news/newsdisplay.aspx?nwid=8480

http://www.forkliftaction.com/news/resizer.ashx?maxX=220&maxY=220&path=%2fupload%2fnews%2f8480-1.jpg

Here's a big forklift that can handle 25 tons. So, a couple of these, a few guys working shifts, and some ramps are about all you'd need.

Ronny
05-01-2013, 07:06
http://www.forkliftaction.com/news/newsdisplay.aspx?nwid=8480

http://www.forkliftaction.com/news/resizer.ashx?maxX=220&maxY=220&path=%2fupload%2fnews%2f8480-1.jpg

Here's a big forklift that can handle 25 tons. So, a couple of these, a few guys working shifts, and some ramps are about all you'd need.

If you can lay a 2-3 ton stone with precision of 1/250th of an inch every 12 seconds you can built a copy of the great pyramid in 25 years. Even with mechanical advantages work would still be difficult to equal what the ancient Egyptians did. I'm glad we're finally caught up to the ancients technologically. :cool:

edit: oh yeah, still need to quarry carve and transport the stones at that rate too.

Haldor
05-01-2013, 07:19
The great pyramid for the win. Modern engineers say they couldn't replicate it with modern technology in under 95 years. Ancient man did it in 25. Humans today are not at the pinnacle of scientific understanding. The ancients had engineering and knowledge that far surpasses us even today.
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4962397587570813&pid=1.7

Give me a break.

Do you really think we couldn't do this in a year or so with modern earth moving equipment? How long does it take to build a major dam? Any decent sized dam is a much bigger project than building a pyramid would be.

http://houseboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Shasta-Lake-Shasta-Dam-Comparisons.jpg

The Aswan dam has more material in it than 17 great pyramids. And that was built in 10 years by Egyptians. We could have done it in 2.

A pyramid is a pile of stone. This is the only large scale structure that doesn't require any engineering knowledge at all to construct, kids playing with blocks make one all the time. There is a reason ancient pyramids are still around and this has nothing to do with super science or ancient astronauts. Goggle "angle of repose" to see what I am talking about.

You want to make a pyramid of your own. Take a bucket of sand and pour it out in a pile. Instant pyramid.

SC Tiger
05-01-2013, 07:27
Sir, you have made me laugh out loud and brought a wide smile to my face. :wavey:

Can't take credit - Gallagher was the one I heard it from.

SC Tiger
05-01-2013, 07:30
Also...

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/jp/image/1346/44/1346448027358.jpg

That picture reminds me of the picture of the daughter from "Sons of Guns" that was on here a while back - especially the eyes. I can't find it though.

Haldor
05-01-2013, 07:33
I don't know if it exactly fits scientific, but surely great feats of engineering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_monoliths_in_the_world

Some of those stones would not easily be moved today.

Actually one guy working by himself can easily move and erect monolithic stones. It is all a matter of balance.

http://youtu.be/lRRDzFROMx0

Haldor
05-01-2013, 07:34
I know, its a little tongue in cheek jest. I enjoy the Ancient Aliens series and download all the new ones. I can never get over how they say things like "How did ancient people ever learn to stack up stones, they are big stones." Stacking rocks up is a far cry from interplanetary rocketry. Next time I'll post the winking eye smilie.

Thanks. I thought you were serious.

.264 magnum
05-01-2013, 07:41
It doesnt. It is hollow inside. If it they were not hollow, how would the armies of the undead live inside them?

Good point.

Haldor
05-01-2013, 07:45
If you can lay a 2-3 ton stone with precision of 1/250th of an inch every 12 seconds you can built a copy of the great pyramid in 25 years. Even with mechanical advantages work would still be difficult to equal what the ancient Egyptians did. I'm glad we're finally caught up to the ancients technologically. :cool:

edit: oh yeah, still need to quarry carve and transport the stones at that rate too.

So you weren't kidding. You really believe they knew stuff we don't know.

Never mind. See my post about dams. These are structures that not only dwarf the great pryamid, but they have to hold back incredible forces from the stored water behind them.

Geko45
05-01-2013, 07:48
I'm glad we're finally caught up to the ancients technologically. :cool:

edit: oh yeah, still need to quarry carve and transport the stones at that rate too.

You're being willfully obstinate and ignoring what has been presented that shows that we can far exceed what the ancients did. For instance, the cranes and forklifts described can place bigger blocks with more precision than the ancients and I already showed you a logistics company that can move a single 850 ton object 10 miles per day and do it day after day with a single vehicle, so transporting has been addressed too. Care to make your stand on how fast we can quarry rock?

Why don't we do things like this today? Because there is no point. Why stack stones as a monument when that effort could put towards more constuctive purposes like retail, office and manufacturing space. Efforts like this need to be profitable in our soceity and pyramids are just huge mausoleums.

.264 magnum
05-01-2013, 07:56
Okay, I spoke (on the phone) with the "savant" that plugged that factoid into my brain some years ago. Without the benefit of doing the math myself, he was not including the coastal border, just the borders with other States. He advised his calculations show it could easily be 8 feet high, and 1.5 feet thick, which is roughly equal to the height and width of a brick retaining wall on his property.


(PUHLEASE! PUHLEASE help me out and prove this guy wrong... No, he's not one of those "I'm always right" types, but he can be annoying by being right so dang much. :steamed: If you know what I mean... :faint: )

92,017,296/12 = 7,668,108 running feet of fence at 1.5 ft thickness and 8 ft height. = 1,452 miles long. And that's with zero foundation. That's too short.

Problems:
1. I'm still not sure the ft3 number for the pyramid is correct. I've seen that number on the 'net twice so I'm sticking with it for now.
2. I don't really know how long the dry boarder of Texas is - I'd guess 2,000 or 2,100 miles or so.
3. According to my deceased civil engineer FIL, "any heavy fence worth a s%$# will have ~1/3 of it's mass underground".

So......

1,452 x 2/3 = 967 miles worth of fence that would actually stand up and last a while. That's way too short.

G36's Rule
05-01-2013, 08:02
92,017,296/12 = 7,668,108 running feet of fence at 1.5 ft thickness and 8 ft height. = 1,452 miles long. And that's with zero foundation. That's too short.

Problems:
1. I'm still not sure the ft3 number for the pyramid is correct. I've seen that number on the 'net twice so I'm sticking with it for now.
2. I don't really know how long the dry boarder of Texas is - I'd guess 2,000 or 2,100 miles or so.
3. According to my deceased civil engineer FIL, "any heavy fence worth a s%$# will have ~1/3 of it's mass underground".

So......

1,452 x 2/3 = 967 miles worth of fence that would actually stand up and last a while. That's way too short.

1200 miles just on the Mexican border.

Geko45
05-01-2013, 08:03
If you can lay a 2-3 ton stone with precision of 1/250th of an inch every 12 seconds you can built a copy of the great pyramid in 25 years.

Math check:

According to this Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza), the ancient Egyptians had to install 800 tons of stone per day to build the Great Pyramid in about 20 years. These stones weighed on average 2.5 tons each. Let's take your assertion that a 2.5 ton stone was put in place by the ancient Egyptians every 12 seconds and see how that works out.

800 tons per day / 2.5 tons per stone = 320 stones per day

320 stones per day * 12 seconds per stone = 3840 seconds per day

3840 seconds per day / 60 seconds per minute = 64 minutes per day

Well, you're right, I concede my point. The ancient Egyptian workday was only a little over an hour. I guess they had plenty of time to drink all that beer they got paid in. Clearly they were far in advance of modern society as they recognized the importance of beer over labor.

Ronny
05-01-2013, 08:04
So you weren't kidding. You really believe they knew stuff we don't know.

Never mind. See my post about dams. These are structures that not only dwarf the great pryamid, but they have to hold back incredible forces from the stored water behind them.

Well of course the ancients knew stuff we don't or didn't until very recently. A common gout medicine was discovered in the 19th century. It turned out that Galen of Pergamon recommended a natural source of that medicine for the treatment of gout. The dark ages wiped out most human knowledge. Books and scrolls were burned in mass. Much of the lost knowledge may never be recovered at all. I don't doubt for a minute than many of our modern discoveries are rediscoveries of ancient knowledge.

All that aside the great pyramid is a construction feat that is difficult to match, even today with mechanical advantage. But we're past the level of stacking up stones and into rocketry and satellite tech now which is much more technical. People often have a vanity about themselves and our civilization today that leads them to doubt the innovativeness of our ancestors. Our technology is no doubt more advanced, but we are also not smarter or more clever than our fore bearers either.

DanaT
05-01-2013, 08:04
If you can lay a 2-3 ton stone with precision of 1/250th of an inch every 12 seconds you can built a copy of the great pyramid in 25 years. Even with mechanical advantages work would still be difficult to equal what the ancient Egyptians did. I'm glad we're finally caught up to the ancients technologically. :cool:

edit: oh yeah, still need to quarry carve and transport the stones at that rate too.

You math is poor.

25 years = 788400000 seconds

there are approximately 2.3M stones in the great pyramid.

788400000/2300000 = 342 seconds per block.

Or 5.7 minutes.... assuming everything was done sequentially.

12 seconds and 5.7 minutes are quite different.

Ronny
05-01-2013, 08:06
You math is poor.

25 years = 788400000 seconds

there are approximately 2.3M stones in the great pyramid.

788400000/2300000 = 342 seconds per block.

Or 5.7 minutes.... assuming everything was done sequentially.

12 seconds and 5.7 minutes are quite different.

yep, double checked, you are right.

Peace Warrior
05-02-2013, 07:43
92,017,296/12 = 7,668,108 running feet of fence at 1.5 ft thickness and 8 ft height. = 1,452 miles long. And that's with zero foundation. That's too short.

Problems:
1. I'm still not sure the ft3 number for the pyramid is correct. I've seen that number on the 'net twice so I'm sticking with it for now.
2. I don't really know how long the dry boarder of Texas is - I'd guess 2,000 or 2,100 miles or so.
3. According to my deceased civil engineer FIL, "any heavy fence worth a s%$# will have ~1/3 of it's mass underground".

So......

1,452 x 2/3 = 967 miles worth of fence that would actually stand up and last a while. That's way too short.
We used to set one-fifth, OR LESS (depending on other factors), the height of walls and poles into the ground, but I like the foundational loophole. :thumbsup: