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meathead19
05-01-2013, 11:27
So, I see this big sign at the gas station stating E free gas gives you 25% more gas milage.

Is there any truth to this?

It was 3.39/gal so it's about .20 more than other local gas stations, but they're not E free.

I've also heard that the E gas can play havoc on your catalytic converter....true?

Thanks.

Bushflyr
05-01-2013, 11:32
No. And No.

Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, so, naturally, you get slightly worse mileage with it, but nowhere near 25% unless you're using E85. And even then it's a stretch.

And E does nothing to your cats. On older engines it can eat some of the seals, but it's not an issue in any auto less than about 20 years old.

czsmithGT
05-01-2013, 11:43
So, I see this big sign at the gas station stating E free gas gives you 25% more gas milage.

Is there any truth to this?

It was 3.39/gal so it's about .20 more than other local gas stations, but they're not E free.

I've also heard that the E gas can play havoc on your catalytic converter....true?

Thanks.

Based on energy per gallon, E85 would result in reduced mileage of 17-27% versus 100% gasoline. E10 would reduce mileage by about 3-4%.

BigDeeeeeeee
05-01-2013, 11:45
Definitely more power, more mileage but not 25%. I burn Premium non E in my Toyota. Edit to add: if your comparing E85 vs gas then it is probably 25%, I was thinking about the 10% E blend sold around here.

From Wiki for the engine in my FJ Cruiser: "An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 254 hp (189 kW) and 270 lbft (366 Nm) on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW) and 289 lbft (392 Nm) on 91 octane."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#1GR-FE

Now that just shows the difference between grades of gasoline but given that it takes around 1 and a half times as much alcohol as gas to produce a given amount of power even a 10% blend gives a noticeable reduction in power and mileage, not to mention longevity. YMMV:supergrin:

meathead19
05-01-2013, 11:47
Based on energy per gallon, E85 would result in reduced mileage of 17-27% versus 100% gasoline. E10 would reduce mileage by about 3-4%.

So, you say one does get improved mileage w E free gas??

Bushflyr
05-01-2013, 11:50
So, you say one does get improved mileage w E free gas??

Do you understand energy density? :upeyes:

Kablam
05-01-2013, 11:52
A little bit, yeah.

Slug71
05-01-2013, 11:52
So, you say one does get improved mileage w E free gas??

Yes..

Valero stations sell E free gas.

meathead19
05-01-2013, 11:53
Do you understand energy density? :upeyes:

I'll do some research.

BigDeeeeeeee
05-01-2013, 11:54
In some vehicles it may be an even more dramatic difference.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparison-test.html

Slug71
05-01-2013, 11:54
E free gas is also good for small engines(lawn mower, snow blower etc..).

jilverthor
05-01-2013, 11:55
So, you say one does get improved mileage w E free gas??

Yes, but it isn't the 25% difference that was posted.

GIockGuy24
05-01-2013, 11:58
The 10 percent is a maximum. It usually has somewhat less and if it wasn't alcohol it would be another additive anyway.

meathead19
05-01-2013, 11:59
Definitely more power, more mileage but not 25%. I burn Premium non E in my Toyota. Edit to add: if your comparing E85 vs gas then it is probably 25%, I was thinking about the 10% E blend sold around here.

From Wiki for the engine in my FJ Cruiser: "An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 254 hp (189 kW) and 270 lbft (366 Nm) on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW) and 289 lbft (392 Nm) on 91 octane."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#1GR-FE

Now that just shows the difference between grades of gasoline but given that it takes around 1 and a half times as much alcohol as gas to produce a given amount of power even a 10% blend gives a noticeable reduction in power and mileage, not to mention longevity. YMMV:supergrin:

A long time mechanic that specializes in exhaust systems says he's never seen so many problems with catalytic converters and he blames E gas.

Bushflyr
05-01-2013, 11:59
Go read THIS THREAD (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341). Old thread, but everything you ever wanted to know about E in fuel.

Bushflyr
05-01-2013, 12:03
Now that just shows the difference between grades of gasoline but given that it takes around 1 and a half times as much alcohol as gas to produce a given amount of power even a 10% blend gives a noticeable reduction in power and mileage, not to mention longevity. YMMV:supergrin:

Ummm, no. You can make WAY more power on ethanol than you can on straight gas.

BigDeeeeeeee
05-01-2013, 12:09
Ummm, no. You can make WAY more power on ethanol than you can on straight gas.

Not on the same volume.

One US gallon of gasoline contains 114,000 BTU of energy; ethanol only has 76,100 BTU's of energy per gallon.

Cmacc
05-01-2013, 12:10
http://www.growthenergy.org/images/uploads/MythbustersRackCard4-10.pdf

jilverthor
05-01-2013, 12:11
Ummm, no. You can make WAY more power on ethanol than you can on straight gas.

In an engine that is designed for it. Straight ethanol will let you run much higher compression ratios. You still don't get better mileage, but you can produce a bunch of power this way (See NHRA)

Adjuster
05-01-2013, 12:14
E free gas is also good for small engines(lawn mower, snow blower etc..).


It is a necessity for boats. E gas will tear a boat fuel system to pieces if the right very common conditions are met.


/

meathead19
05-01-2013, 12:17
http://www.growthenergy.org/images/uploads/MythbustersRackCard4-10.pdf


This came from D.C.......Sorry, I just don't trust ANYTHING coming out from that cess pool.

MaxxAction
05-01-2013, 12:22
I pick up about 10% in gas mileage using non ethanol gas in my g35.

Ethanol 10% gets me an average of about 19, non-e gas gets me about 21. You pay 10% more, so really it's a wash. I do like the sound of the engine better with non-e gasoline though. It has a deeper sound. I think it has to do with the burn or cumbustion speed of alcohol vs petroleum.

Cmacc
05-01-2013, 12:28
Truth On Ethanol - YouTube


40 Facts About Ethanol - YouTube

BigDeeeeeeee
05-01-2013, 12:31
In an engine that is designed for it. Straight ethanol will let you run much higher compression ratios. You still don't get better mileage, but you can produce a bunch of power this way (See NHRA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel

Not the kind of mileage I'd want: " In a typical run the engine can consume as much as 22.75 Gallons (103 Liters) of fuel during warmup, burnout, staging, and the quarter-mile run."

:shocked::faint::supergrin:

Cmacc
05-01-2013, 12:32
This came from D.C.......Sorry, I just don't trust ANYTHING coming out from that cess pool.

It came from an industry organization based in D.C. that represents manufacturers, users and supporters. Like the NRA which is also based in the Wash, D.C. area.

John Rambo
05-01-2013, 12:34
Yes, not only that but things like lawn/garden equipment, motorcycles, and boats will GREATLY benefit from E-Free gas. Especially in lawn/garden equipment and motorcycles, the ethanol plays hell with the fuel system.

faawrenchbndr
05-01-2013, 12:34
Take a look at this.........search engine for ETHANOL free gas

http://pure-gas.org/

czsmithGT
05-01-2013, 12:37
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel

Not the kind of mileage I'd want: " In a typical run the engine can consume as much as 22.75 Gallons (103 Liters) of fuel during warmup, burnout, staging, and the quarter-mile run."

:shocked::faint::supergrin:

NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car uses nitromethane (up to 90%) blended with methanol.Top Alcohol uses methanol. Neither of those classes use ethanol.

Cmacc
05-01-2013, 12:38
In an engine that is designed for it. Straight ethanol will let you run much higher compression ratios. You still don't get better mileage, but you can produce a bunch of power this way (See NHRA)

Actually, Top Fuel drag racers burn 90% nitromethane (cleaning solvent) and 10% methane (wood alcohol). Still alcohol but technically not ethanol.

czsmith beat me by a minute.

Cmacc
05-01-2013, 12:44
Yes, not only that but things like lawn/garden equipment, motorcycles, and boats will GREATLY benefit from E-Free gas. Especially in lawn/garden equipment and motorcycles, the ethanol plays hell with the fuel system.

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/8528/outdoor-power-equipment-maker-kicks-off-ethanol-awareness-effort

jilverthor
05-01-2013, 12:49
NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car uses nitromethane (up to 90%) blended with methanol.Top Alcohol uses methanol. Neither of those classes use ethanol.

Actually, Top Fuel drag racers burn 90% nitromethane (cleaning solvent) and 10% methane (wood alcohol). Still alcohol but technically not ethanol.

czsmith beat me by a minute.

I stand corrected on the NHRA but the point about ethanol remains. While I am not a fan of E85, E10 and E15 are no problem for cars made in the recent past. You still get better mileage with gas without ethanol but it does have some other tradeoffs (cost, emissions, ...)

BIGBEAR92314
05-01-2013, 12:49
I hate ethanol fuel additive. I have a 1975 Norton 850 Commando with a fiberglass fuel tank and the ethanol fuel mix ate through the fiberglass so I had to epoxy seal the fuel tank. Aircraft fuel is ethanol free as well. Using our food resources to make fuel is just a bad idea all the way around.

John Rambo
05-01-2013, 12:50
http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/8528/outdoor-power-equipment-maker-kicks-off-ethanol-awareness-effort

I've seen, first-hand, what it does to small engine fuel systems. RUINS o-rings on brand new motors. I was :steamed: when I came out to a puddle of gas under my 2009 bike, ended up replacing the fuel cutoffs with brass fittings.

This ethanol in our gas serves no purpose other than to make rich people even richer at the expense of our products' lifespans.

faawrenchbndr
05-01-2013, 12:53
Thee is an easy fix,.......don't use the ethanol blended gas!

meathead19
05-01-2013, 12:54
I've seen, first-hand, what it does to small engine fuel systems. RUINS o-rings on brand new motors. I was :steamed: when I came out to a puddle of gas under my 2009 bike, ended up replacing the fuel cutoffs with brass fittings.

This ethanol in our gas serves no purpose other than to make rich people even richer at the expense of our products' lifespans.

That's what the mechanic said.

He asked me "you ever seen a poor politician/congressman?"

I said nope.

meathead19
05-01-2013, 12:56
Thee is an easy fix,.......don't use the ethanol blended gas!


Yep. :wavey:

fwm
05-01-2013, 13:13
No. And No.

Ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, so, naturally, you get slightly worse mileage with it, but nowhere near 25% unless you're using E85. And even then it's a stretch.

And E does nothing to your cats. On older engines it can eat some of the seals, but it's not an issue in any auto less than about 20 years old.

Problem is, not every vehicle is less than 20 years old. My 1987 XL600 manual states clearly, 'fuel with ANY ethanol WILL damage engine and fuel system components' (emphasis mine)

To prove a point to my wife, After tracking the miles per tank on her 2010 Outlander using the 10% ethanol fuel she uses, I filled with her car 4 times with no ethanol fuel, and consistently got 30 miles further on a 15 gallon tank of fuel. Broke even on cost per fuel mile.

I have to go 9 miles out of my way to fill my motorcycle with no ethanol fuel.

Redheadhunter21
05-01-2013, 14:36
The difference will depend on the vehicle I can run pretty much anything through my truck 96 Ram with a V8, old gas just takes it longer to start, diesel makes it buck like crazy but somehow manages better mileage. However I notice smoother running and increased economy with Rec(Non- ethanol) gas. To figure out the difference in your vehicle lend it to the wife for a month, first 2 weeks e10, next 2 no ethanol, don't tell her your doing it say your testing her car or something along those lines. Compare data.

If you want to get a quick feel for difference ride a bike and you will soon know.

meathead19
05-01-2013, 15:09
The difference will depend on the vehicle I can run pretty much anything through my truck 96 Ram with a V8, old gas just takes it longer to start, diesel makes it buck like crazy but somehow manages better mileage. However I notice smoother running and increased economy with Rec(Non- ethanol) gas. To figure out the difference in your vehicle lend it to the wife for a month, first 2 weeks e10, next 2 no ethanol, don't tell her your doing it say your testing her car or something along those lines. Compare data.

If you want to get a quick feel for difference ride a bike and you will soon know.

Test vehicle is a 2005 Jeep GC Limited w 4.7 liter v8.

Not a sports car , but it may respond better w e free gas.

somebodybuymeaglock
05-01-2013, 15:27
1996 jeep grand cherokee

I use ethanol free gas when I can. I dont notice a change in gas mileage, but I get a smoother ride. I wouldnt dare put ethanol in my antique.

BIGBEAR92314
05-01-2013, 15:28
Thee is an easy fix,.......don't use the ethanol blended gas!
Not so easy here in Cali ethanol blended fuel is mostly all you can get. I have found only two places to get non ethanol fuel that I run in my Norton now.But it's VP Racing Fuel 100 Octane and runs 8.47 a gallon.

czsmithGT
05-01-2013, 15:40
Thee is an easy fix,.......don't use the ethanol blended gas!

Around here ethanol free gas is only available at one station and it is way more expensive than the blend.

JC2317
05-01-2013, 15:49
Yes, not only that but things like lawn/garden equipment, motorcycles, and boats will GREATLY benefit from E-Free gas. Especially in lawn/garden equipment and motorcycles, the ethanol plays hell with the fuel system.

Yep. I was in Sears yesterday and the salesman was telling the guy buying a new mower that because of the ethanol crap in the gas the small engine ( Briggs and Stratton ) manufacturers were requiring the use of fuel stabilizer with every tankful, not just during storage. First I have heard of it but it kinda makes sense. If the ethanol corrodes the interior of a small tank, it will kill the engine. We have a station here that advertises Ethanol free gas, I think I am going to start going there.

czsmithGT
05-01-2013, 15:54
Yep. I was in Sears yesterday and the salesman was telling the guy buying a new mower that because of the ethanol crap in the gas the small engine ( Briggs and Stratton ) manufacturers were requiring the use of fuel stabilizer with every tankful, not just during storage. First I have heard of it but it kinda makes sense. If the ethanol corrodes the interior of a small tank, it will kill the engine. We have a station here that advertises Ethanol free gas, I think I am going to start going there.

That is interesting. I had never heard this. I've just used E10 in my 4 year old Honda mower, but I do notice a gradual loss of power, even after a tune-up last year.

VC-Racing
05-01-2013, 16:27
Its called conventional fuel. It's just another way for the EPA to screw everyone by driving fuel prices up. Same thing with diesel fuel. All this ultra low sulfur crap is just another way to drive fuel price up.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

meathead19
05-01-2013, 17:56
Its called conventional fuel. It's just another way for the EPA to screw everyone by driving fuel prices up. Same thing with diesel fuel. All this ultra low sulfur crap is just another way to drive fuel price up.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Politics......no way!

FCastle88
05-01-2013, 18:20
Yep. I was in Sears yesterday and the salesman was telling the guy buying a new mower that because of the ethanol crap in the gas the small engine ( Briggs and Stratton ) manufacturers were requiring the use of fuel stabilizer with every tankful, not just during storage. First I have heard of it but it kinda makes sense. If the ethanol corrodes the interior of a small tank, it will kill the engine. We have a station here that advertises Ethanol free gas, I think I am going to start going there.
I bought a mower with a Briggs and Stratton engine at Sears last summer and the manual/warranty doesn't say anything about stabilizer in every tank. Many fuel stabilizers aren't going to help much with the problems ethanol causes in small engines, carbs, etc. Startron and Sta-Bil Marine Formula are both stabilizer and ethanol treatment. Both supposedly work pretty well. Startron is a lot cheaper, I use it in every tank in my motorcycle.

Hauptmann6
05-01-2013, 18:32
Ummm, no. You can make WAY more power on ethanol than you can on straight gas.

Only if you are running lots of boost or very high compression ratios.

Hauptmann6
05-01-2013, 18:43
Thee is an easy fix,.......don't use the ethanol blended gas!

Can't get it in Michigan.

meathead19
05-01-2013, 19:08
Can't get it in Michigan.

As if you needed another reason to leave! :supergrin:

FireForged
05-01-2013, 19:38
I have used the E free gas from Phillips 66 for many years. IMO, E does nothing to poison my engine, its nasty stuff on gaskets and seals

podwich
05-01-2013, 19:41
Can't get it in Michigan.

I see ethanol-free premium all over the place around here (northern MI).

meathead19
05-01-2013, 19:46
I have used the E free gas from Phillips 66 for many years. IMO, E does nothing to poison my engine, its nasty stuff on gaskets and seals


So would you rather buy E free or E gas?

ThinkMud
05-01-2013, 20:03
I can only get ethanol free gas when I go home to my parents' house.

I fill my tank and a few Jerry cans each time! My 2012 Jk rubicon lifted with tons of armor gets about 2 mpg better and runs like a champ with ethanol free gas! That's my only experience so far. Hope that helps. Best best is to try it and see how your ride likes it.

VC-Racing
05-02-2013, 07:13
Politics......no way!

Unfortunately ...... Way....... :eek:

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Haldor
05-02-2013, 07:23
So, I see this big sign at the gas station stating E free gas gives you 25% more gas milage.

Is there any truth to this?

It was 3.39/gal so it's about .20 more than other local gas stations, but they're not E free.

I've also heard that the E gas can play havoc on your catalytic converter....true?

Thanks.

Ethanol gives less mpg so E-Free gas (100% gas) should give more mpg. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Higher levels of ethanol can also damage fuel systems so if you have an older car straight gas is probably not a bad idea.

Steve0853
05-02-2013, 07:48
I can only comment on my experience with my vehicles.

I have only tested two in the last 20 years. One was a 1987 Plymouth Horizon and the other was a 2003 Honda Pilot.

In both cases, they got exactly 10% less miles per gallon with Ethanol enriched gas.

So that begs the question: If you have a 90/10 mix of gas to ethanol and that mixture results in 90% of the miles per gallon that 100% gasoline gets, then what is the purpose of the ethanol? Why go to all that trouble of distilling the alchohol and mixing it with the fuel, etc. if the benefit is zero??

I have to think the only purpose is to put money in the right person's pocket.

FireForged
05-02-2013, 18:22
So would you rather buy E free or E gas?

I wrote E gas does nothing to poison my engine.. I was trying to type "E gas does nothing BUT poison my engine. I do not like the stuff and do not use it when I can get around it.

paynter2
05-02-2013, 18:46
I pick up about 10% in gas mileage using non ethanol gas in my g35.

Ethanol 10% gets me an average of about 19, non-e gas gets me about 21. You pay 10% more, so really it's a wash. I do like the sound of the engine better with non-e gasoline though. It has a deeper sound. I think it has to do with the burn or cumbustion speed of alcohol vs petroleum.

Getting 10% higher mileage with pure gasoline over E10 means you are still burning the same amount of pure gasoline. You are just burning that same amount diluted by ethanol.

Three are many variables in ethanol tests - if you can find the tests. The E85 Vegas run was interesting. But, the vast majority of us run E10. Also, I think small engines 1.6-2.4L 4 cyl engines suffer the effects of E10 much more than big V8s. I'm not sure why - my guess is that the loss of power/mileage may be the same (between the small and big engines), but that the loss of power/mileage is less noticeable in a big engine.

I would love to see a closed loop test between gasoline and E10 in a car with a 1.8 or 2L engine. Wonder why you can't fine one? "The world wonders".

DJ Niner
05-02-2013, 21:48
I get 10% better mileage with both our vehicles (small AWD sedan and small SUV) using non-ethanol gas. Mid- and high-octane non-e gas is fairly common around these parts, but finding the lower-grade (lower cost) non-e is a bit more difficult.

czsmithGT
05-02-2013, 22:34
Here is a listing, by state, of stations that sell ethanol free gas in the US and Canada. Of course the info is not necessarily totally up-to-date or correct since the stations are added and removed by anyone who logs onto the site, so there could be some stations missing and some listed which no longer sell it. But it could be a good starting point if you are looking for ethanol free gas in your area.


http://pure-gas.org/

Gonzoso
05-02-2013, 23:03
Ethanol gas sucks. It messes up small motors bad.

Ethanol gas made me fail at waterskiing.

My girlfriends dad was pulling me in his boat at Lake Wallenpaupack. It was a little bit older, but ran fine.

Well he pulls me and whenever I'd get up it would start slowing down, then surging forward and damn near tear my arms out and messed me up. I also sucked at water skiing so that didn't help.

At any rate after getting beaten up and yanked half to death I admitted defeat and within minutes his boat died, and we had to tow it to the dock with a pontoon boat.

The problem was the ethanol had dissolved the rubber fuel lines, clogging the filter, causing intermittent fuel starvation until it got so clogged it died.

Gonzoso
05-02-2013, 23:04
I run e free gas in my saw, and when I'm by the only e free station around(airport road in Allentown) I fill up my vehicle there.

When I run it in my bike I don't notice much more efficiency but I do notice a bit better throttle response and the bike seems to run better.

faawrenchbndr
05-03-2013, 05:53
I run ethanol free gas as much as possible. When I have to use gas with ethanol, I add Star Tron treatment.

meathead19
05-03-2013, 06:11
Here is a listing, by state, of stations that sell ethanol free gas in the US and Canada. Of course the info is not necessarily totally up-to-date or correct since the stations are added and removed by anyone who logs onto the site, so there could be some stations missing and some listed which no longer sell it. But it could be a good starting point if you are looking for ethanol free gas in your area.


http://pure-gas.org/

Nice....and there's an E free station I pass on a daily basis. Thanks.

SC Tiger
05-03-2013, 06:20
No. And No.


And E does nothing to your cats. On older engines it can eat some of the seals, but it's not an issue in any auto less than about 20 years old.

I knew Ethanol was bad but eating cats and seals? Does that include baby seals and the LOL cats? :rofl:

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

SC Tiger
05-03-2013, 06:23
10% Ethanol gas gives lower mileage in some cars. Oddly I notice it more in newer, small engines (4cyl Honda to be specific) than the V8 in my old truck.

To run E85 the car has to be rated for it. I believe the primary modifications are different rubber in the seals and hardened valve seats. E85-rated cars are also good to switch over to run CNG, supposedly.

Ethanol is brutal on small engines and boats though. I try to get non-ethanol gas for them.

JMS
05-03-2013, 06:47
Toyota recommends 5000 mile oil change intervals for most of their vehicles, for their flex-fuel vehicles they recommend 2500 mile oil change intervals. :wow::wow::wow::wow:

TnGlocker12
05-03-2013, 13:35
E free gas is also good for small engines(lawn mower, snow blower etc..).

I buy it for my mowers, weed-eaters, and leaf blowers.

Fear Night
05-03-2013, 14:05
Putting Ethanol in gas was a solution looking for a problem.

NeverMore1701
05-03-2013, 14:19
There's only one E free station in town, and it's way out of my way.

owl6roll
05-04-2013, 13:41
For a month, my wife used it and said she got an extra 100 miles out of a tank of gas. I noticed that I don't fill up as often, make more trips to work. Valves don't rattle on my 2007 Ford Range (6cyl), like with the E fuel.

So, I say yes. And older vehicles and lawn equipment will last a litter longer.