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Henry's Dad
02-14-2014, 20:11
In an hour, VW and the UAW will announce the result of a three-day vote by the workers at the TN VW plant as to whether they want to unionize. Balloting closed at 8:30 tonight.

If they decide to unionize, it will be seen as a major coup by organized labor. It will be their first success at getting auto workers in the south (working for companies like BMW, M-B, VW, Nissan) to unionize.

Should be interesting.

More info here:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/union-vote-at-volkswagen-tennessee-plant-heading-to-close-2014-02-14-74491318

2bgop
02-14-2014, 20:20
I think the Corker statement about VW adding a SUV to the line was a good move. VW can fully deny it, but a US Senator saying it gets a ton of media coverage. I would assume to many workers there it makes sense that VW would reward a plant.

Dennis in MA
02-14-2014, 20:21
I bet they unionize. And then more do. And in 20 years, all car manf's will build cars in Mexico for North Americsn distribution. I don't get VW's angle on this.

Dennis in MA
02-14-2014, 20:23
"Many labor law experts believe a works council is only possible in the U.S. if a union represents the workers."

I don't get that at all. I wonder if many experts are employed by unions.

OldSchool64
02-14-2014, 20:25
Labor unions suck, IMO.

I take care of myself and if there's a problem I'll take it up with my employer. I don't need anyone to negotiate for me.

Batesmotel
02-14-2014, 20:38
Labor unions suck, IMO.

Ditto.

The union guys will argue but being self employed on mixed jobs (part union part contracted workforce) I have butted heads with to many corrupt union members and reps.

I saw too many of them NOT working for their pay to respect them.

Henry's Dad
02-14-2014, 21:09
Looks like the union LOST the vote.

No union at VW plant in TN.

HalfHazzard
02-14-2014, 21:10
Link please! :wavey:

Z71bill
02-14-2014, 21:13
So if the union loses - they file an unfair labor practices lawsuit - judge appointed by Obama rules in favor of the union and orders collective bargaining to start immediately.

:dunno:

HalfHazzard
02-14-2014, 21:13
Volkswagen and IG Metall both want the Chattanooga workers to be represented by a union so the plant can set up a works council, a formal committee of hourly and salaried employees who negotiate over the day to day operations of the plant. Many labor law experts believe a works council is only possible in the U.S. if a union represents the workers.

The only day to day operations the council should consider are those that make the most cars. Why do you need a union for that? Am I missing something?

Henry's Dad
02-14-2014, 21:14
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/24730753/vw-employees-vote-against-unionization

HalfHazzard
02-14-2014, 21:16
I bet they unionize. And then more do. And in 20 years, all car manf's will build cars in Mexico for North Americsn distribution. I don't get VW's angle on this.

It's all about this "work council". I heard on the radio that the German side of VW wants a "work council" at the TN plant as this is the tradition they have in Germany as a result of the German unions. I guess UAW is jumping at the chance get into the mix as their relevancy wanes.

BEANCOUNTER
02-14-2014, 21:32
Volkswagen workers rejected the union by a vote of 712-626.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304434104579382541226307368?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304434104579382541226307368.html

Cubdriver
02-14-2014, 21:36
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/24730753/vw-employees-vote-against-unionization

Could that story have been more poorly written?

First line: "Volkswagen workers have voted against allowing UAW to represent them at Volkswagen"

Second line: "Over the last 3 days voters at the plant have chosen to accept representation from the united auto workers"

Is it just me, or does line two contradict line one? :dunno: Who writes this stuff?!?

-Pat

Cashgap
02-14-2014, 21:52
Could that story have been more poorly written?

First line: "Volkswagen workers have voted against allowing UAW to represent them at Volkswagen"

Second line: "Over the last 3 days voters at the plant have chosen to accept representation from the united auto workers"

Is it just me, or does line two contradict line one? :dunno: Who writes this stuff?!?

-Pat

You have to understand, every newspaper writer in America is offended by any factory that doesn't fly the hammer 'n sickle. That paragraph was written through blurry eyes indeed.

BEANCOUNTER
02-14-2014, 22:16
Could that story have been more poorly written?

First line: "Volkswagen workers have voted against allowing UAW to represent them at Volkswagen"

Second line: "Over the last 3 days voters at the plant have chosen to accept representation from the united auto workers"

Is it just me, or does line two contradict line one? :dunno: Who writes this stuff?!?

-Pat

Reporters who couldn't get a job with The Wall Street Journal. :supergrin:

janice6
02-14-2014, 22:18
Deleted. Have to re-read the release.


Again. From my personal, prejudiced, biased, point of view. I am impressed.


I had to confirm what I thought I read, after the comments above. I thought I had imagined what I saw.

czsmithGT
02-14-2014, 22:30
"Many labor law experts believe a works council is only possible in the U.S. if a union represents the workers."

I don't get that at all. I wonder if many experts are employed by unions.

I think vw management is wrong here. But its their company. My guess is it is another step toward globalization of unions, but here is some info about the situation-


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/21862-volkswagen-workers-vote-on-union-works-council-scheme

Atlas
02-14-2014, 22:32
Defeated.

Good for you VW employees!!!
Kiss my ass you UAW parasites.
Give up and crawl back under that nasty slimy rock you call home.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/15/us-autos-vw-election-idUSBREA1D1DP20140215

...
Retired Tennessee Circuit Court Judge Sam Payne, who oversaw the count, said workers voted against UAW representation by 712 to 626.

larry_minn
02-14-2014, 22:39
Looks like the union LOST the vote.

No union at VW plant in TN.

Sounds like wonderful news to me...

GoBigOrange
02-14-2014, 22:39
Very proud of my brethren back in TN.

IceAxe
02-14-2014, 22:41
UAW President Bob King, in a 2011 speech to workers, said the union has no long-term future if it can’t organize the Southern plants.

Best news I've heard in a long time! :tongueout:

AirCav
02-14-2014, 22:47
Well done, Chattanooga! I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised. I was afraid it was going the other way. Maybe all is not lost?

CAcop
02-14-2014, 23:08
It's all about this "work council". I heard on the radio that the German side of VW wants a "work council" at the TN plant as this is the tradition they have in Germany as a result of the German unions. I guess UAW is jumping at the chance get into the mix as their relevancy wanes.

Owners and unions have a different relationship on the other side of the Atlantic from what I understand. They work together on issues rather than try to see who gets the biggest slice of the pie.

The closest we come to anything like that is employee owned businesses.

Honestly they don't need the UAW. They could easily have their workers create a union for that plant only and then negotiate with it directly with no outside interference. It would probably work well.

Grabbrass
02-14-2014, 23:38
So if the union loses - they file an unfair labor practices lawsuit - judge appointed by Obama rules in favor of the union and orders collective bargaining to start immediately.

:dunno:

You're probably right.

Still, tonight at least, let the banana dance.

:dancingbanana:

ChuteTheMall
02-14-2014, 23:38
Looks like VW might make quality products instead of UAW trash.

I wonder if Emperor Obama will over-ride the decision and impose a union anyway.
:deadhorse:

czsmithGT
02-14-2014, 23:42
Owners and unions have a different relationship on the other side of the Atlantic from what I understand. They work together on issues rather than try to see who gets the biggest slice of the pie.



I don't have much experience with Germany other than having read that their auto manufacturing cost index was the highest in the world, Mexico was lowest and US was in between. I have done a lot of work with plants in Netherlands where they have works councils. My experience was they were worse than any US union.

It was very difficult to get anything done. Our company invested a lot of money for a new equipment and expanded capacity in the plant there and it was a terrible decision.

Workers had very little interest in putting in the hours needed on start-ups. A couple of their engineers worked their asses off for months but they were the exception. Most of the employees just didn't seem to care all that much- put in their 35 hours a week and that was that. Even after start up was over, productivity was low and costs were high. Company finally gave up and wrote off the new investment of M$20 something, dropped some products and relocated some production to US plants costing the Dutch plant about 70 jobs. But their rules prevented closing the plant altogether.

Finally got rid of the problem by selling those businesses for which the Netherlands plant was still manufacturing and sold the plant to pass the headache on to the next owner.

Tiro Fijo
02-14-2014, 23:48
Let's look at the bottom line instead of the usual bashing:




http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

czsmithGT
02-15-2014, 00:14
Let's look at the bottom line instead of the usual bashing:




http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

I question Forbes numbers which are 3 years old.

- The average pay including benefits at VW Chattanooga is $27 an hour- still much lower than the rust belt union plants but not as low as indicated, nor nearly as low as VW's Mexico Assembly plant workers.

- In 2012 the US made almost as many cars and twice as many total motor vehicles annually as Germany. The trend continued in the first half of 2013

http://www.oica.net/category/production-statistics/2012-statistics/

Rabbit994
02-15-2014, 00:20
Owners and unions have a different relationship on the other side of the Atlantic from what I understand. They work together on issues rather than try to see who gets the biggest slice of the pie.

The closest we come to anything like that is employee owned businesses.

Honestly they don't need the UAW. They could easily have their workers create a union for that plant only and then negotiate with it directly with no outside interference. It would probably work well.

This so much. Unions in Europe tend to have much more friendly relationship with management then here where it tends to be very adversarial.

czsmithGT
02-15-2014, 00:22
This so much. Unions in Europe tend to have much more friendly relationship with management then here where it tends to be very adversarial.

Perhaps- but Works Councils are not unions. In Germany they have both.

Tiro Fijo
02-15-2014, 00:26
I question Forbes numbers which are 3 years old...





And what pray tell would Forbes, a Conservative finance journal, have to gain by fudging numbers about union job profitability? :dunno:




Besides, the point is that the Germans don't waste nearly as much money on needless executive positions such as we do, thereby they reward their employees well. There seems of be a less combative environment there as regards Labor.


Food for thought:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2013/07/21/the-unions-didnt-bankrupt-detroit-but-great-american-cars-did/

czsmithGT
02-15-2014, 01:14
And what pray tell would Forbes, a Conservative finance journal, have to gain by fudging numbers about union job profitability? :dunno:


[/URL]

Who knows- it is an old article. Maybe Allen is just a sloppy writer- why would he talk about car production numbers instead of total motor vehicle production in US and Germany other than to bolster some point he wanted to make? I can't get into his mind.

All I know is if anyone thinks we will have a kinder, gentler UAW that wants to cooperate with management if they get into the southern non-union plants after having mucked up the northern plants I have a bridge to sell them.

If you look at North American motor vehicle production over the past decade, US losses in the north and mid-west union plants have been made up by gains in the southern non-union plants, Canada has declined and Mexico has increased.

Making K$55-60 a year in wages & benefits in Chattanooga is a lot better than making nothing in New Stanton or Detroit.

vikingsoftpaw
02-15-2014, 01:23
You have to understand, every newspaper writer in America is offended by any factory that doesn't fly the hammer 'n sickle. That paragraph was written through blurry eyes indeed.

Every news paper is loaded full journalist that are union members. Locally (In Cleveland, Ohio) they didn't realize that they too, are paid from the receipts of advertizing revenue. After 5 years employment they have tenure, they couldn't be fired for being slackers. The union slug bastards would not come off the golf course to do the full time reporting they were hired to do. Of course, there are 40% less of them than there was 10 years ago, as much content has moved on-line.

--

My money is they don't vote to unionize. Unions are kept out of southern transplant auto plants because management responded to workers voices. They also have good profit sharing and promote by merit.

In short the UAW's Northern scheme rings hollow in Dixie.

Making K$55-60 a year in wages & benefits in Chattanooga is a lot better than making nothing in New Stanton or Detroit.

Making $40K in the South means that you will enjoy a higher standard of living than $55K-$60K in Yankeeville.


Volkswagen and IG Metall both want the Chattanooga workers to be represented by a union so the plant can set up a works council, a formal committee of hourly and salaried employees who negotiate over the day to day operations of the plant. Many labor law experts believe a works council is only possible in the U.S. if a union represents the workers. This is a German concept. It's how they unions and management work together in German industries. If a union slacker pulled that crap they to in this country, in Germany the union President would walk them to the company gate and they would be banned from the profession.

--

There is a website in which GM Lordstown workers communicate issues amongst themselves. It's crazy how many 3rd shift union slugs want to sleep rather than do they jobs.

After reading that stuff, I'd rather buy Korean than a UAW mobile.

RustyL
02-15-2014, 06:33
Yessir, time for Obama to get his pen and phone.








So if the union loses - they file an unfair labor practices lawsuit - judge appointed by Obama rules in favor of the union and orders collective bargaining to start immediately.

:dunno:

walt cowan
02-15-2014, 06:49
all the teamsters do is steal money.

HalfHazzard
02-15-2014, 07:18
Let's look at the bottom line instead of the usual bashing:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

There are no actual numbers other than wages and numbers of automobiles made. This isn't an actual analysis and isn't useful for comparison purposes.

Edit: I am shocked that a person who claims to be an "editor" would put that useless drivel out onto the internet. I held Forbes in a higher regard.

frank4570
02-15-2014, 07:50
Owners and unions have a different relationship on the other side of the Atlantic from what I understand. They work together on issues rather than try to see who gets the biggest slice of the pie.

The closest we come to anything like that is employee owned businesses.

Honestly they don't need the UAW. They could easily have their workers create a union for that plant only and then negotiate with it directly with no outside interference. It would probably work well.

Great points.

I know some old guys who were very, very loyal to the companies they worked for. And the companies worked to give them a good wage. That kind of relationship is dead in the U.S.

googanelli
02-15-2014, 09:06
I always love the union bashing. FWIW, yes, I am in a union and think my union sucks. Let's start from there. I work in transportation and the company (and other companies who are non union today) historically treated their employees horribly. Yes, federal laws have been written to attempt to provide the protections that the unions fight to gain as well (overtime, safety, etc). What I can tell you is that the industry I am in STILL has their hand around Washington's neck as well as their workers. We still have major issues that come up daily.

The reason I am pro union is the same reason I am in the NRA; Me walking in the door to try and get something changed or fixed in a company with 26k workers just doesn't happen. It doesn't matter if it is a smart move or not.

Unions vs Companies is the same as Dems v Repubs. It's the same mindset. There is a yin and yang for a reason.

BTW, I vote libertarian.

Joe

Z71bill
02-15-2014, 09:17
Let's look at the bottom line instead of the usual bashing:




http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

It is complicated and beyond a GT discussion - but Germany is getting a giant benefit - in the form of devalued currency - because they are in the EU.

If they were still using the DM their ability to export would be significantly reduced - making it impossible to pay high wages and still sell any manufactured goods.

Other EU countries have been borrowing in order to buy manufactured goods from Germany - a devalued euro (vs what a stand alone Germany currency would be) allows Germany to also export outside Europe.

The bottom line is - a country or industry can skirt economic reality for a while - sometimes many years - but at some point the harsh reality snaps back - The next 5 years will be interesting -- :dunno:

IndyGunFreak
02-15-2014, 09:55
I've been following this issue on DU (I personally detest unions)...

It's rather comical... Before the vote.. "Stand up for your rights against the corporation!" after the vote "Dumb southerners don't know what's good for them!" Some of the more rational (and they appear to be long time members) are saying that w/ this vote, which really wasn't even that close, means the UAW is dead. VW had more or less invited the UAW in the door to organize and had stayed out of the matter, and they still couldn't get the employees to form a union.

Now, they are blaming a TN Republican, who made some comments that all a union would do is cause the company to be less profitable, create less jobs, and keep them from expanding in the area. They also blame some anti-union group for purchasing signs, etc.. warning of gloom and doom if the union was voted in. Apparently these two so intimidated and scared the workers at the union, they voted NO to UAW representation. Personally, I don't think this was so much a vote against a union, as much as it was a vote against the UAW. As someone said above, it wouldn't surprise me to see the plant unionize, but to keep it's union local, which would hopefully help them have a good relationship with management.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to require a union for these "work councils"... but that's another story.

plumbum2
02-15-2014, 09:57
i love the union bashers. has anyone seen the profits of gm/ford/fiat lately? consistent record quarters. when they did their sweep not long ago and got rid of a lot of people. the NEW jobs on the line are $14.00 an hour and no benefits. i think you get insurance after 1 yr? guess what cars/vehicles didnt get any cheaper when their bottom line clearly did.

obviously business owners will chime in and say "thats the way it should be" im the owner, screw the guy working i need to rich rich rich". a lot of people think unions can protect a worker from getting fired/laid off etc. at least by me thats not true. i see it all the time. %#&% bags dont get to keep a job just because they belong to a union.

another myth in construction is union shops are way more expensive than a non union shop. 100% not true. i have seen bids. on avg. i would say 5% cheaper if at all. the difference is the owner of the non union shop is making a lot more profit because he is paying his guys nothing.

plumbum2
02-15-2014, 09:59
I've been following this issue on DU (I personally detest unions)...

It's rather comical... Before the vote.. "Stand up for your rights against the corporation!" after the vote "Dumb southerners don't know what's good for them!" Some of the more rational (and they appear to be long time members) are saying that w/ this vote, which really wasn't even that close, means the UAW is dead. VW had more or less invited the UAW in the door to organize and had stayed out of the matter, and they still couldn't get the employees to form a union.

Now, they are blaming a TN Republican, who made some comments that all a union would do is cause the company to be less profitable, create less jobs, and keep them from expanding in the area. They also blame some anti-union group for purchasing signs, etc.. warning of gloom and doom if the union was voted in. Apparently these two so intimidated and scared the workers at the union, they voted NO to UAW representation. Personally, I don't think this was so much a vote against a union, as much as it was a vote against the UAW. As someone said above, it wouldn't surprise me to see the plant unionize, but to keep it's union local, which would hopefully help them have a good relationship with management.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to require a union for these "work councils"... but that's another story.

no one ever said the boys from TN were very smart. its ok, let them make $10 an hr working on the line.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 10:18
no one ever said the boys from TN were very smart. its ok, let them make $10 an hr working on the line.

Workers at BMW in South Carolina have consistently voted anti-union and they are paid quite well. :wavey:
And the great majority I've known are extremely happy to be employed by BMW.

Z71bill
02-15-2014, 10:31
no one ever said the boys from TN were very smart. its ok, let them make $10 an hr working on the line.

I think they are making $20 an hour at VW - VS $15 for new hires under the current UAW contract.

Your view seems almost comical - GM filed for bankruptcy - Do you know that means they went out of business?

If they were not able to shed their restrictive labor contracts instead of coming out of bankruptcy they would have liquidated.

Al Czervik
02-15-2014, 11:47
They work together on issues rather than try to see who gets the biggest slice of the pie.



Herein lies a large part of the problem with the union mentality. The pie doesn't belong to the union.

Syclone0538
02-15-2014, 12:20
I always love the union bashing. FWIW, yes, I am in a union and think my union sucks. Let's start from there. I work in transportation and the company (and other companies who are non union today) historically treated their employees horribly. Yes, federal laws have been written to attempt to provide the protections that the unions fight to gain as well (overtime, safety, etc). What I can tell you is that the industry I am in STILL has their hand around Washington's neck as well as their workers. We still have major issues that come up daily.

The reason I am pro union is the same reason I am in the NRA; Me walking in the door to try and get something changed or fixed in a company with 26k workers just doesn't happen. It doesn't matter if it is a smart move or not.

Unions vs Companies is the same as Dems v Repubs. It's the same mindset. There is a yin and yang for a reason.

BTW, I vote libertarian.

Joe

If you vote LP, then hopefully you understand free market, voluntary exchange. If VW offers jobs for X compensation, and a worker accepts it, they are both better off. VW valued the work higher than X, and the worker valued X more than the work.

There should be no gov involvement here at all. Workers should be free to unionize. Employers should be free to replace them all if the union gets in the way.

You should be able to hire, or not, or fire, or not, or do business with*, or not, anyone at anytime for any reason.



*As long as that business isn't the initiation of force on someone.

frank4570
02-15-2014, 12:53
Herein lies a large part of the problem with the union mentality. The pie doesn't belong to the union.

And of course business owners feel their only obligation is to pay their employees enough to prevent them from leaving, or convince them to continue working through whatever means are legal.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 12:59
And of course business owners feel their only obligation is to pay their employees enough to prevent them from leaving, or convince them to continue working through whatever means are legal.

The business owner's obligation to the employee is defined by his/her agreement with the employee.

frank4570
02-15-2014, 13:10
The business owner's obligation to the employee is defined by his/her agreement with the employee.

And if enough people feel the employer is getting rich off their sweat and blood, they form a union. And then they get a new agreement with the business owner.
I don't like unions in general, and I think they usually cause bad results. But I think it is also true that people don't form unions if they are being treated well.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 13:46
And if enough people feel the employer is getting rich off their sweat and blood, they form a union. And then they get a new agreement with the business owner.
I don't like unions in general, and I think they usually cause bad results. But I think it is also true that people don't form unions if they are being treated well.

Is an employer under obligation to treat anyone well?

IndyGunFreak
02-15-2014, 13:48
And if enough people feel the employer is getting rich off their sweat and blood, they form a union. And then they get a new agreement with the business owner.
I don't like unions in general, and I think they usually cause bad results. But I think it is also true that people don't form unions if they are being treated well.

Here's how business ownership works. You make/develop a product or service, you hire people who can do the work at the lowest possible cost, so you can make a profit. That's the point of being an owner.

A good business owner understands that if he has Employee A doing an excellent job, he should pay him more. If Employee B does just enough to get by, then the owner will pay him just enough to keep him. Personally, I've only felt shorted by an employer once in my life. Believe it or not, it was my first job working at a restaurant (large fast food chain) when I was 16. I knew I was doing a good job because management always told me I was. Found out same restaurant owned by another owner, about 4-5mi away, was hiring at about a $1 more per hour than I was making. I went to the store manager, turned in my two week notice and when I was asked why, I told them. Next day I came in to work, and they gave me the $1 to stay. Ended up working there, starting management training when I was 17, and was a shift manager before I graduated HS. Ultimately, I didn't stay there forever as I chose a different path, but to me, that's how it works.

At another job, I also have an equally ridiculous story about how I nearly KO'd a union rep who insisted on "representing" me during a hearing when I'd made quite clear before we walked in, his only job was to STFU, I didn't even want him in there but policy said I had to. All that union did was keep people who should have been fired, from being fired. Oh and raises? We got raises, pretty good raises, but what irritated me... I never got a single write up in several years there, was always on time, etc.. I got the same raise as the guy who was always late, constantly getting written up and reprimanded, etc.. Why? Because he'd been there the same number of years as me.

Screw unions. I think they are the bane of the American work force.

czsmithGT
02-15-2014, 14:10
no one ever said the boys from TN were very smart. its ok, let them make $10 an hr working on the line.

They can get to $20 after a couple years with a benefit package that brings the value of total compensation to $27. They had 35,000 applicants for the initial 1500 production jobs. They also employ 500 contract employees who have a lower hourly rate but also have benefits (401K, medical and dental) and VW hires the best of those to fill VW permanent job openings. And their contract employee provider (Aerotek) has plenty of applicants for their openings.

If that is inadequate, anyone at VW Chattanooga is free to find a better, higher paying job in that area or relocate to anyplace in the USA where they can do better.

VW got over half a billion dollars in tax incentives to decide to put their plant in Tn. Whether that is worthwhile or not is up to the Tn voters. That is a lot of money but that is what it takes these days to attract manufacturers and it isn't like the state would get any tax money at all from VW if the plant were built in Alabama or Mexico.

Now the question is where VW will put their North American expansion- Chattanooga or Mexico. One thing is certain- it won't be Detroit.

Gareth68
02-15-2014, 14:14
I have been in the offset printing trade for more than 20 years.

New hires with no experience start around $10 an hour (I have worked in 4 states and it is similar).

Once you can operate equipment to standards wages seem to range in the $13-18 range in the bindery with slightly higher in the press room.

It takes years of training to be able to run multiple machines well.

I wonder what is so inherently difficult about an assembly line that people scream about how unreasonable $13 for entry level unskilled help is.

I am content in my trade, as are many others.

I worked hard to build my skills and advance to a supervisory role.

I will likely continue to apply myself and eventually step to the next level in management.

I have not needed a union to hold my hand, and am glad that I could be advanced based solely on my own merits.

To those of your who cannot survive without others help, or advance.....try reporting a half hour early every day, taking no sick days, and striving to be the best at what you do every hour you are on the clock.

You might be amazed to see how many people you can pass on your way up the ladder.

Competence and hard work will always be rewarded, if not by your current employer than by some person or company who will ultimately be more successful.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 14:19
...
I wonder what is so inherently difficult about an assembly line that people scream about how unreasonable $13 for entry level unskilled help is.
...

You really cannot generalize modern automotive assembly in terms of skills and qualifications.

Not to say that all jobs on an automotive production line are highly skilled or specialized, but many are. The majority require extensive training.

.

Gareth68
02-15-2014, 14:25
You really cannot generalize modern automotive assembly in terms of skills and qualifications.

Not to say that all jobs on an automotive production line are highly skilled or specialized, but many are. The majority require extensive training.

.

Which is why I do not question top pay, or pay after training...only entry level pay.

At that point they are unskilled labor.

The pay should be reflective of that.

Those who survive and learn skills will be compensated accordingly.

:dunno:

CAcop
02-15-2014, 14:25
Herein lies a large part of the problem with the union mentality. The pie doesn't belong to the union.

It is supposed to be a team effort.

Have high turnover in all hourly positions? Have to pay for more training than you really need to if you upped pay a little bit?

Have your company paying you too much so they can't invest in R&D?

Some people have a hard time seeing hidden costs.

jakebrake
02-15-2014, 14:27
And of course business owners feel their only obligation is to pay their employees enough to prevent them from leaving, or convince them to continue working through whatever means are legal.

maybe they should use violence and intimidation like the scumbag unions

I look forward to watching the unions die. lets see how many scumbag union knuckledraggers can make it in the real world.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 14:30
It is supposed to be a team effort.


It is "supposed to be" whatever the employer and employee agreement determines it to be. Nothing more, nothing less within the applicable laws.

Gareth68
02-15-2014, 14:32
Also, I might point out that they have no issues filling vacancies.

So, the starting entry level pay which is reflective of their lack of skills, seems to be of a level that is attractive to those employed.

It is only outsiders who are claiming it is too low.

It is a non-union shop.

Those with skills will advance quickly if they work hard.

They will be paid more as they learn.

At that point what they earned when they stepped in the door is moot.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 14:35
Also, I might point out that they have no issues filling vacancies.

So, the starting entry level pay which is reflective of their lack of skills, seems to be of a level that is attractive to those employed.

It is only outsiders who are claiming it is too low.

It is a non-union shop.

Those with skills will advance quickly if they work hard.

They will be paid more as they learn.

At that point what they earned when they stepped in the door is moot.

I can easily agree with that.

Taterhead
02-15-2014, 14:35
...

another myth in construction is union shops are way more expensive than a non union shop. 100% not true. i have seen bids. on avg. i would say 5% cheaper if at all. the difference is the owner of the non union shop is making a lot more profit because he is paying his guys nothing.

You don't know what you are talking about. Non-unionized companies are still subject to competitive forces. Not all of them make money. I was a controller for a construction/contracting company and had to deal with this. Your Marxist explanation of the reasons is off the mark (company owners screwing the little guy for a buck). There is that evil profit motive again. :faint: I know the books, since I compiled the financial statements.

The reason that union shops are at all competitive with free-market shops is because of laws that artificially put a thumb on the scale in the favor of organized labor (otherwise known as Democratic party campaign contributors). This is because publicly funded projects require non-union shops to pay union "prevailing wages" so that construction costs are artificially higher than they normally would be. We had to pay entry level labor positions nearly $30 per hour plus benefits for fed projects.

The reality is that this is why there are so few "shovel ready" jobs, and why taxpayers get hosed for projects. Pro-union laws cause projects to cost more than they normally would in order to channel tax payer money to union dues that is, in turn, forwarded to the DNC. All that is window-dressed as helping the "workers." The reality is that it is a total racket.

I support free association. I would rather deal directly with the proprietors of the business that employs me, but feel free unionize all you want. What chaps me is when the law gives preferential treatment to a group (i.e. union), or requires you to join a union if you wish to participate in that marketplace. If unions can stand on their own, fine. The fact is that they rarely can and require artificial preferential treatment under the law.

frank4570
02-15-2014, 14:48
Is an employer under obligation to treat anyone well?

Nope. Is a worker obligated to work without a union?

Cashgap
02-15-2014, 14:50
And if enough people feel the employer is getting rich off their sweat and blood, they form a union. And then they get a new agreement with the business owner.
I don't like unions in general, and I think they usually cause bad results. But I think it is also true that people don't form unions if they are being treated well.

Actually, no. Unions are criminal organizations by definition. It's confusing that they are temporarily legal, but they are still criminal organizations. Slavery was once legal, yet was always criminally wrong.

In your example, if the workers see a better market for their labor, they should quit and sell their labor in that better market. If they feel the company is getting above market returns, they are free to establish a competitor, take a market return, and undercut the original employer.

Instead, unions organize to use the threat of violence to extort above market wages and conditions by denying property owners free enjoyment of their property and by denying free association.

That's it.

They threaten to "shut down" the plant by blocking it via threat of violence, and deny the property owner and prospective employees happy to work for the wages and conditions the right to freely associate.

The union members justify it "Sure, I'm stealing above market wages and conditions by threat of violence and by denying the property owner access to their property and free association, but I get fourteen holidays per year and would only get twelve without the union..." etc. You can go on and on about property rights, free association, individual responsibility, etc., and that does not stack up against two extra days off. The sense of right and wrong never even enters the picture.

The confusion comes from the fact that during the reign of He Who Shall Not Be Named (FDR), criminal union organizations gained legal protection. But that doesn't make them right.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 14:51
Nope. Is a worker obligated to work without a union?

I totally support the right of workers to organize. That is their right to do so.

I also support the right of an employer to decide who he does or does not want to have for an employee, for any reason at all or no reason. That would include the right to decide that he not have employees who choose to have a union represent them.

.

frank4570
02-15-2014, 14:54
maybe they should use violence and intimidation like the scumbag unions



I have worked for those employers in non-union jobs.

And to clarify, I have never had a union job. Most of the jobs I have had, the workers would not need or want a union. But some of them....... somebody fired bullets at the place one night.

Taterhead
02-15-2014, 14:55
Nope. Is a worker obligated to work without a union?

No. Nor should a worker be required to associate with a union as a condition of employment.

A worker should be free to join a union. Or not. Business proprietors should also have the freedom to choose to deal with a union. Or not.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 14:57
No. Nor should a worker be required to associate with a union as a condition of employment.

A worker should be free to join a union. Or not. Business proprietors should also have the freedom to choose to deal with a union. Or not.

Exactly so.

Cybercowboy
02-15-2014, 15:18
After working in a union shop (Teamsters) as a white collar worker for about 10 years...

Unions? Bwahahahahahahaha! Good for VW!

HalfHazzard
02-15-2014, 15:20
But some of them....... somebody fired bullets at the place one night.

Sounds like a mental health problem, not a pay problem... Probably shouldn't have been working there anyway...

kd608
02-15-2014, 15:48
I work at a transplant auto plant in ky. As a team leader i make a little over $29 a hour. this includes 8% team leader pay, but does not include 5% shift premium. I have health insurance, dental insurance, 401k, company pension plan, 21 vacation days and 15 paid holidays each year. UAW has been trying to get in our plant for 25 years with no success and I can't see why anyone would want them.

frank4570
02-15-2014, 15:48
Sounds like a mental health problem, not a pay problem... Probably shouldn't have been working there anyway...

They had a whole crapload of pissed off employees. The company was very good at manipulating people. They tried to get their hooks into me once, but I was already educated about them.

CAcop
02-15-2014, 18:05
It is "supposed to be" whatever the employer and employee agreement determines it to be. Nothing more, nothing less within the applicable laws.

Things work better when labor and management work together. But go ahead and fight over that last penny vs getting things done right.

Atlas
02-15-2014, 18:17
Things work better when labor and management work together....

Don't have much actual business management experience, do you?

Of course "things work better" when everyone works together.


.. But go ahead and fight over that last penny vs getting things done right.

My business is mine alone, I do not have employees.

"that last penny"... is what makes a business work.
Its what business is ABOUT.

And the "last penny" is not contrary to "getting things right".
You are creating a false dichotomy to promote an emotional argument. And your argument in no way nullifies the point of my post you cited.

Dennis in MA
02-15-2014, 18:24
Color me happily surprised.

Dennis in MA
02-15-2014, 18:27
It is supposed to be a team effort.

Have high turnover in all hourly positions? Have to pay for more training than you really need to if you upped pay a little bit?

Have your company paying you too much so they can't invest in R&D?

Some people have a hard time seeing hidden costs.

A company can mitigate that without a union. And if they don't, they go out of business and one that can succeeds in their place.

A wise employer sees workers as team mates. If they choose not to be wise, should we make them?

frank4570
02-15-2014, 19:05
A company can mitigate that without a union.

Absolutely. And a company owner can breed loyalty if his employees feel like they are being paid fairly.

I had one boss(owner) who went down to one of our primary customers, pissed them off, and lost the customer. He came back so mad that he told the sales staff that he was taking their bonuses because they suck. :rofl: And basically dared them to try to take him to court, since he had money and lawyers and they didn't. Fortunately, he was a small business owner. But he was on his way to being a big fish.

certifiedfunds
02-15-2014, 21:39
Herein lies a large part of the problem with the union mentality. The pie doesn't belong to the union.

Well done

CAcop
02-15-2014, 22:26
A company can mitigate that without a union. And if they don't, they go out of business and one that can succeeds in their place.

A wise employer sees workers as team mates. If they choose not to be wise, should we make them?

Nope but penny wise pound foolish sounds about right.

ChuteTheMall
02-15-2014, 23:55
A wise employer sees workers as team mates. If they choose not to be wise, should we make them?

If the workers turn out to not be team players, should the employer be able to replace them? Or is he stuck with them?

JMag
02-16-2014, 01:01
This is the 21st century. UAW is now joining the rest of modern society in figuring that out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Ohub Campfire mobile app

certifiedfunds
02-16-2014, 12:34
Things work better when labor and management work together. But go ahead and fight over that last penny vs getting things done right.

The only time there is a division between "labor" and "management" is when a union is involved. The rest of us are part of an organization working voluntarily toward a common goal.

frank4570
02-16-2014, 13:38
"The Battle of Blair Mountain was the result of economic exploitation of workers during a period of social transformation in the southern West Virginia coalfields.[5][6] Beginning in 1870–1880, coal operators had established the company town system.[7][8] Coal operators paid private detectives as well as public law enforcement agents to ensure that union organizers were kept out of the region.[7] In order to accomplish this objective, agents of the coal operators used intimidation, harassment, espionage and even murder.[7] Throughout the early 20th century, West Virginia coal miners attempted to overthrow this system and engaged in a series of strikes, including the Paint Creek-Cabin Creek strike of 1912, which coal operators attempted to stop through violent means. Mining families lived under the terror of Baldwin-Felts detective agents who were professional strikebreakers under the hire of coal operators. During that dispute, agents drove a heavily armored train through a tent colony at night, opening fire on women, men, and children with a machine gun.[9] They would repeat this type of tactic during the Ludlow Massacre in Colorado the next year, with even more disastrous results.[10]"

Battle of Blair Mountain, wikkipedia
Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

googanelli
02-16-2014, 22:18
I'll give you a counter point:

My company convinced us to take a wage concession to offset insurance premiums. Our union talked to us and we decided to take the hit so that the company could stay profitable (during the recession). When it was all said and done, we agreed to reduced their labor costs roughly 30m. Mind you, the company I work for is one of the most profitable in the world.

Here's the dig, the corporate bonus went up the next quarter. They handed themselves a bonus of.....guess?

30million. The same they asked us to suck up so that THEY could remain profitable.

One of the airlines did the exact same thing.

Here's why I am pro union. Small companies are able to work out issues in house. The people you work with are across the hall from you. When an issue comes up, it can be addressed. Where I work, I am a number. The ONLY thing the carrier cares about is reducing costs. That means cutting employee pay, benefits, and consolidating jobs. Innovation is stagnant because the industry is slow to adopt to technology.

My father has worked with Toyota for 25 years in ky and has told me numerous times (he is in management):
"We can run this place with only a handful of people"

Who the hell is gonna use your products if people don't make a living wage and are able to have their families taken care of. Business ethics is not prevalent like you may think. When a company is ONLY worried about their bottom line they will do what ever it takes to get that bottom line. That's when unions come in handy.

JOe

Atlas
02-17-2014, 04:50
..
Who the hell is gonna use your products if people don't make a living wage and are able to have their families taken care of. Business ethics is not prevalent like you may think. When a company is ONLY worried about their bottom line they will do what ever it takes to get that bottom line. That's when unions come in handy.

JOe

What the heck is a "living wage" and why does anyone owe that to anyone else?

You know what I do when I'm not happy with conditions/money/the texture of the toilet-paper in the men's room?

I go and find a better deal elsewhere.
This has worked well for me for more than 30 years.

Tiro Fijo
02-17-2014, 05:49
...You know what I do when I'm not happy with conditions/money/the texture of the toilet-paper in the men's room?

I go and find a better deal elsewhere.
This has worked well for me for more than 30 years.





Are you a nomadic hunter/gatherer? Do you live in an RV?
Many people have roots, buy homes, have families, etc. They just can't simply change jobs every 6 mos., especially when they are older.


I guarantee you that for every working man/woman on this Forum I can find someone in a Third World country who can do the exact same job for far less money. A country has to take care of its own less we become a Third World nation. People who make $10 hr. with no bennies don't buy new cars, send their kids to college, etc. I've watched the Mexican Mafia infiltrate construction jobs in the southern USA and corporate America is too stupid to see it as well as making too much money off paying Illegals peanuts.

Atlas
02-17-2014, 05:55
Are you a nomadic hunter/gatherer? Do you live in an RV?
Many people have roots, buy homes, have families, etc. They just can't simply change jobs every 6 mos., especially when they are older.
...

I do just fine, thank you.
When I hunt, it's for opportunity.

When I gather, its:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/New100front.jpg/800px-New100front.jpg


...
I guarantee you that for every working man/woman on this Forum I can find someone in a Third World country who can do the exact same job for far less money. ...

Your "guarantee" isn't worth much.

... A country has to take care of its own less we become a Third World nation. People who make $10 hr. with no bennies don't buy new cars, send their kids to college, etc.....

Here's your first clue.... don't depend on "a country" or anyone else to take care of you.

I don't receive any "bennies", never have, and I do OK.
The only "bennie" I know is ol' Ben, the guy in that engraved portrait above. The portrait framed with "100".

Many, many Americans create opportunities for themselves, don't receive "bennies" and do even better.


.

SC Tiger
02-17-2014, 07:35
Would the plant have been able to force the workers to join the union? Tennessee is right-to-work so, although there are union plants there (there is a lock manufacturer there that is union), the union does not have the power that the unions have in a right-to-organize state (where they can effectively close the doors to non-union workers).

Workers at BMW in South Carolina have consistently voted anti-union and they are paid quite well. :wavey:
And the great majority I've known are extremely happy to be employed by BMW.

Okonite Cable in SC is the same way. Their SC plant is the only non-union plant, and gets higher raises than any other facility.

This is as of ten years ago though.

HalfHazzard
02-17-2014, 07:56
I've watched the Mexican Mafia infiltrate construction jobs in the southern USA and corporate America is too stupid to see it as well as making too much money off paying Illegals peanuts.

Can you elaborate on the jobs? I'm interested.

Powder
02-17-2014, 08:04
Can you elaborate on the jobs? I'm interested.

I.N.S./local L.E. had a huge raid on the new Orlando VA hospital construction project and found a bunch of illegals working there. I believe they were all working for the GC which was Brasfield and Gorrie. We were on the job at the time as well.

This stuff is on every construction job down here. Only reason it got noticed here was because it was a federal jobsite.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-02-11/news/os-new-details-va-hospital-raid-20110211_1_illegal-immigrants-federal-e-verify-system-construction-site

Naelbis
02-17-2014, 08:07
Obviously the workers at the VW feel like they are being paid well and taken care of, thus why would they desire a union? Many, many large corporations could learn a lesson here but I doubt they will recognize it.

Reyn
02-17-2014, 10:01
Never been in a union nor worked where there was one. I know one guy who does though and it seems its like two people in a bitter divorce. The union is needed because the company treats them like crap. It seems the company treats them like crap though because of the union.They just make each other miserable and get by because they have to.

Ironically,it seems unions might have helped because companies now see what can happen so go the extra mile to get along with the employees to avoid dealing with union employees.

HalfHazzard
02-17-2014, 10:11
I.N.S./local L.E. had a huge raid on the new Orlando VA hospital construction project and found a bunch of illegals working there. I believe they were all working for the GC which was Brasfield and Gorrie. We were on the job at the time as well.

This stuff is on every construction job down here. Only reason it got noticed here was because it was a federal jobsite.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-02-11/news/os-new-details-va-hospital-raid-20110211_1_illegal-immigrants-federal-e-verify-system-construction-site

I was referring to links with Mexican Mafia. :wavey:

BamaBud
02-17-2014, 10:25
Would the plant have been able to force the workers to join the union? Tennessee is right-to-work so, although there are union plants there (there is a lock manufacturer there that is union), the union does not have the power that the unions have in a right-to-organize state (where they can effectively close the doors to non-union workers).

IIRC: they cannot force you to join the union. BUT, everyone has to pay the union dues, whether you join the union or not. So, the union gets your money, even if you don't join.

Done through automatic payroll deduction.

(At least this was the way it was 30 years ago. I assume that it hasn't changed).

fnfalman
02-17-2014, 10:30
I was referring to links with Mexican Mafia. :wavey:

If I were to join up, would they - the Mexican Mafia, issue me a nickel plated Colt .38 Super?

plumbum2
02-17-2014, 10:31
IIRC: they cannot force you to join the union. BUT, everyone has to pay the union dues, whether you join the union or not. So, the union gets your money, even if you don't join.

Done through automatic payroll deduction.

(At least this was the way it was 30 years ago. I assume that it hasn't changed).

this is what "right to work" means. you can be a member of the union and are not forced to pay union dues.

fnfalman
02-17-2014, 10:33
People who make $10 hr. with no bennies don't buy new cars, send their kids to college, etc.

If they were to make $10/hrs, they shouldn't be having kids in the first place. They should be looking to better their skills so that they can get paid triple that amount.

Show me a business where SKILLED craft workers get paid $10/hrs. Or even $15/hrs. SKILLED craft workers get paid as much as mid-level management or more.

In this day and age, people get paid what they earned. It ain't the Robber Barons Era no' mo'.

Haldor
02-17-2014, 10:38
I have worked for those employers in non-union jobs.

And to clarify, I have never had a union job. Most of the jobs I have had, the workers would not need or want a union. But some of them....... somebody fired bullets at the place one night.

And somebody fired bullets at a preschool one day. What is your point.

Haldor
02-17-2014, 10:58
I guarantee you that for every working man/woman on this Forum I can find someone in a Third World country who can do the exact same job for far less money.

Real engineering talent is in short supply world wide. India for example tried to fake their way into being a software developing powerhouse. Ask anybody who has attempted to have software developed in India how it turned out. Biggest problem is that many Indian programmers/engineers buy their degree in order to avoid having to work hard. Corruption like this is incredibly short sighted, it devalues all Indian engineers including the ones who actually worked for their degrees.

At one point over 90% of the top CMM (Capability Maturity Model) rated software development organizations in the world were located in India. This despite the fact that none of these organization had ever successfully launched a large software project. Turns out it is a lot easier to fake the paperwork than it is to actually know what you are doing.

http://softpanorama.org/SE/CMM/index.shtml

The Chinese are much smarter about this. They are ruthless in evaluating technical credentials. You just have to watch out for the politically connected ones, but the Chinese organization I have dealt with do a good job of herding them into positions where they can't do much damage.

Biggest problem with China is intellectual property theft. A western company sets up shop in a Chinese city making their product and in a couple of years they are surrounded by knock off competitors who hire their employees from them. The real problem with these rip-off competitors is that they often lack any real understanding of what they are doing (they are working from a stolen recipe after all) and when things go wrong they have little ability to do failure analysis or find solutions themselves.

SC Tiger
02-17-2014, 11:25
If they were to make $10/hrs, they shouldn't be having kids in the first place. They should be looking to better their skills so that they can get paid triple that amount.

Show me a business where SKILLED craft workers get paid $10/hrs. Or even $15/hrs. SKILLED craft workers get paid as much as mid-level management or more.

In this day and age, people get paid what they earned. It ain't the Robber Barons Era no' mo'.

Excellent points here. Skills pay the bills, as the kids these days put it.

Brian Lee
02-17-2014, 15:19
Ditto.

I saw too many of them NOT working for their pay to respect them.

Same here. You'll never see so many "workers" trying so hard to prevent their employer from making a dime of profit as you do when you visit a union factory. And I've visited them.

You'll also never hear so many false fantasies about union labor being "the best" as what comes out of the mouths of those same union FLUFs while they simultaneously try so hard not to get any work done.


(A FLUF is a Fat Lazy Ugly PH***er if you didn't already know that.)

ChuteTheMall
02-17-2014, 16:45
How's the coffee?
A UAW employee couldn't be trusted to plug in an extension cord, that would require an IBEW brother. But he can't move that truck out of the way so he calls a Teamster. Unless the truck is parked on a dock, in which case the Teamster calls a Longshoreman to move the truck so the electrician can plug in the extension cord so the shop stewards can make imported coffee in time for their break. It's been a long day waiting for the proper specialists to arrive before 4:20.
Meanwhile, the Red Chinese are actually working, doing the productive work union thugs won't do; like making coffee machines, coffee cups, extension cords, and ships to deliver the goods. Hey man, that's not my job. I just work here.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 18:40
No. Nor should a worker be required to associate with a union as a condition of employment.

A worker should be free to join a union. Or not. Business proprietors should also have the freedom to choose to deal with a union. Or not.

This is exactly what happened yet, so many here still cling to the myth that the union will come in a force the company to go union and force the employees to join. That didn't happen. VW is another example proving this. More hatred than knowledge is never a good thing.

HalfHazzard
02-17-2014, 18:59
This is exactly what happened yet, so many here still cling to the myth that the union will come in a force the company to go union and force the employees to join. That didn't happen. VW is another example proving this. More hatred than knowledge is never a good thing.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/15/uaw-may-challenge-volkswagen-vote-results/5510325/

The union isn't done even though the workers are. This isn't about helping workers, it's about helping the UAW.

"UAW leaders on Friday said they will review all of their legal options and consider challenging the results of a devastating defeat in an election for union representation at Volkswagen's plant in Chattanooga, Tenn."

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 19:29
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/15/uaw-may-challenge-volkswagen-vote-results/5510325/

The union isn't done even though the workers are. This isn't about helping workers, it's about helping the UAW.

"UAW leaders on Friday said they will review all of their legal options and consider challenging the results of a devastating defeat in an election for union representation at Volkswagen's plant in Chattanooga, Tenn."

And many here equate looking for another angle legally as union thuggery, violent coercion, extortion and worse. The UAW will review their options and accept defeat. The hatred here based on lies and rhetoric will continue.
The fact remains that the company and employees were free to make the choice. The UAW had the legal right to solicit their employees to join. The fact that the employees declined says more about the accomplishments of unions over the decades than it does about this defeat.

oldgraywolf
02-17-2014, 19:34
The union isn't done even though the workers are. This isn't about helping workers, it's about helping the UAW.

This is the essence of it all. Many unions are primarily a business for the benefit of those in power. Workers are secondary.

frank4570
02-17-2014, 19:51
And many here equate looking for another angle legally as union thuggery, violent coercion, extortion and worse. The UAW will review their options and accept defeat. The hatred here based on lies and rhetoric will continue.
The fact remains that the company and employees were free to make the choice. The UAW had the legal right to solicit their employees to join. The fact that the employees declined says more about the accomplishments of unions over the decades than it does about this defeat.

Another angle?????
Why are they looking for another angle?
The employees have said they are happy working for VW and they don't want a union to get into it.

railfancwb
02-17-2014, 20:00
VW employees just might have looked north west to Spring Hill and noticed what happened to GM's UAW Saturn plant.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

eb07
02-17-2014, 20:05
Unions once had their place. Now they are just parasites.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:11
This is the essence of it all. Many unions are primarily a business for the benefit of those in power. Workers are secondary.

Same can be said for churches. It's all about the money.:wavey:

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:15
Another angle?????
Why are they looking for another angle?
The employees have said they are happy working for VW and they don't want a union to get into it.

Do you always give up on the first attempt? I wish solicitors and religious door knockers would. Salespeople suck.:tongueout:

Atlas
02-17-2014, 20:17
... The hatred here based on lies and rhetoric will continue...

You can add me to the list of those who have seen first-hand how the UAW degrades the automotive industry.

When I'm between other projects (defense stuff, manufacturing for pharmaceuticals, various other manufacturing industries) I work in factory automation for automotive assembly. In the south these days there's always opportunity in automotive..

In that role I've been in facilities for BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Ford, and their many and various suppliers.

The UAW(and other union)-infected facilities have ALWAYS been poop-holes. As many people sitting around looking like they have never exerted themselves in their life as employees actually DOING anything. Everything filthy, sloppy, disorganized....

Stuff you will NEVER see in the BMW or the Mercedes facilities.. both non-union of course.

I've seen it many times over the years.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:17
VW employees just might have looked north west to Spring Hill and noticed what happened to GM's UAW Saturn plant.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Saturn should have looked east and west at Ford to see how it's done. Saturn put out some butt ugly crap nobody wanted.

HalfHazzard
02-17-2014, 20:22
And many here equate looking for another angle legally as union thuggery, violent coercion, extortion and worse. The UAW will review their options and accept defeat. The hatred here based on lies and rhetoric will continue.
The fact remains that the company and employees were free to make the choice. The UAW had the legal right to solicit their employees to join. The fact that the employees declined says more about the accomplishments of unions over the decades than it does about this defeat.

What legal angle is there to force the workers to unionize? The workers said NO. Accepting defeat would be allowing the workers to determine their fate, not retrying how to force the workers to join them. As USA Today reports, UAW is not accepting defeat; they will look to the government to force the workers to do what the UAW wants them to do.

Same can be said for churches. It's all about the money.

What does this have to do about churches? At least you can not attend church if you don't want to. There's no "National Religious Relations Board" to force you to deal with churches.

Will the VW workers be able to freely not join the union? Saturday should have told us that answer; something tells me it's not over for this plant.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:31
You can add me to the list of those who have seen first-hand how the UAW degrades the automotive industry.

When I'm between other projects (defense stuff, manufacturing for pharmaceuticals, various other manufacturing industries) I work in factory automation for automotive assembly. In the south these days there's always opportunity in automotive..

In that role I've been in facilities for BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Ford, and their many and various suppliers.

The UAW(and other union)-infected facilities have ALWAYS been poop-holes. As many people sitting around looking like they have never exerted themselves in their life as employees actually DOING anything. Everything filthy, sloppy, disorganized....

Stuff you will NEVER see in the BMW or the Mercedes facilities.. both non-union of course.

I've seen it many times over the years.

Yet the Wayne Michigan plant where the Focus is built would contradict everything you just said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgEbETmt0Zg

Atlas
02-17-2014, 20:34
Yet the Wayne Michigan plant where the Focus is built would contradict everything you just said.



No, it doesn't.

I'll say it once more, slowly and in large font so you can understand..

I've seen it many, many times over a career spanning years.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:40
What legal angle is there to force the workers to unionize? The workers said NO. Accepting defeat would be allowing the workers to determine their fate, not retrying how to force the workers to join them. As USA Today reports, UAW is not accepting defeat; they will look to the government to force the workers to do what the UAW wants them to do.

The USA today article said no such thing. No one is being "forced" to do anything. More false rhetoric.



What does this have to do about churches? At least you can not attend church if you don't want to. There's no "National Religious Relations Board" to force you to deal with churches.

Will the VW workers be able to freely not join the union? Saturday should have told us that answer; something tells me it's not over for this plant.

You're free to join a union or decline. If you're not a member of a union, there's all the proof you need. And yes there are religious organizations trying to force religion on others. They think it's their duty. They're in politics and in public as well as invading my privacy with their high pressure tactics. I continue to decline.
VW and their employees have spoken their decision. The UAW will continue to solicit their employees. They're free to continue to decline. Are you anti 1A?

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:42
No, it doesn't.

I'll say it once more, slowly and in large font so you can understand..

I've seen it many, many times over a career spanning years.

You can say it as slowly as you want. The evidence clearly says what you say is untrue.

Atlas
02-17-2014, 20:44
You can say it as slowly as you want. The evidence clearly says what you say is untrue.

What the ******* hell do YOU actually know about it?
Anything at all?

You are exhibiting your ignorance. Perhaps you should stop now.

czsmithGT
02-17-2014, 20:52
You're free to join a union or decline.

What do you think about situations where you are forced to pay union dues whether or not you join the union?

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 20:58
What the ******* hell do YOU actually know about it?
Anything at all?

You are exhibiting your ignorance. Perhaps you should stop now.

I've worked for a union signatory company in a right to work state for well over 30 years. Never seen a work stoppage, grievance form or letter of discipline. We're making record profits and being paid well to do it. We earn our pay every day. Union membership is voluntary here.
I own a 2010 union built F250 and a Japanese built 2013 Prius. Quality, fit and finish are equal on both. I use both for route vehicles with my job. They're both 100% reliable.
You are exhibiting your bitter hatred. Perhaps you should stop now.

Atlas
02-17-2014, 21:01
I've worked for a union signatory company in a right to work state for well over 30 years. Never seen a work stoppage, grievance form or letter of discipline. We're making record profits and being paid well to do it. We earn our pay every day. Union membership is voluntary here.
I own a 2010 union built F250 and a Japanese built 2013 Prius. Quality, fit and finish are equal on both. I use both for route vehicles with my job. They're both 100% reliable.
You are exhibiting your bitter hatred. Perhaps you should stop now.

All of which means... nothing. Exactly zero.
Tell me you have worked extensively inside AUTOMOTIVE manufacturing facilities, and various related suppliers both UAW-controlled and non.

Tell me you have the perspective gained from working in equipment design across many other industries as a metric for comparison.

.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 21:02
What do you think about situations where you are forced to pay union dues whether or not you join the union?

I would be opposed to that. We don't have that here. Even postal employees here are free to join their unions or decline. Those that decline pay no dues. They have about 95% membership. We're 100% where I work. Strictly voluntary.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 21:03
All of which means... nothing. Exactly zero.
Tell me you have worked extensively inside AUTOMOTIVE manufacturing facilities, and various suppliers both UAW-controlled and non.

Because you say it makes it true?:rofl:

KommieforniaGlocker
02-17-2014, 21:06
Can you elaborate on the jobs? I'm interested.

Launder money via Labor Contractor's, very common shoot there are guys that are getting governmet Re-forestation contracts. Not just construction but Ag as well.


They get licensed and bonded, then bid, naturally since they don't care if they make any money their bid will always be the lowest and be contracted for the project.

Many of them bid so low they are operating at a loss hence driving the legit guys out of business. The agencies that contract these companies (using the term loosely) probably know or tun the other way.

The almighty dollar is a hell of a thing.

Atlas
02-17-2014, 21:06
Because you say it makes it true?:rofl:

You know nothing.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-17-2014, 21:15
You know nothing.

I know people like you are the reason we still have unions. Ya'll sleep well. I'm going to bed. I have a long day tomorrow drinking coffee 'til noon, smoking pot 'til 14:15 and then holding up my mop until quitting time when I wait 'til dark to vandalize company property.:wavey:

Atlas
02-17-2014, 21:23
I know people like you are the reason we still have unions. ...

^ Proving that you're talking out of an orifice not intended for such purposes.

The continued existence of labor unions certainly has nothing at all to do with me.

czsmithGT
02-17-2014, 21:35
I would be opposed to that. We don't have that here. Even postal employees here are free to join their unions or decline. Those that decline pay no dues. They have about 95% membership. We're 100% where I work. Strictly voluntary.

How much responsibility does the union have for the inability of the USPS to stop losing $25 million each day?

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 06:21
^ Proving that you're talking out of an orifice not intended for such purposes.

The continued existence of labor unions certainly has nothing at all to do with me.

I said people like you. Not you. You're pretty insignificant in the big scheme of things. Management at the VW plant must be pretty good for the employees to reject UAW representation. All it will take is some future management team with a mindset like yours and the employees will welcome the UAW with open arms. That's how it's always been.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 06:30
How much responsibility does the union have for the inability of the USPS to stop losing $25 million each day?

The USPS is circling the drain with or without their unions. It's unfortunate but the internet is replacing them. They have been excessing and automating for years and membership is dropping right along with it. It's just a matter of time. And then Congress ordered the USPS to pay I forget how many billions to their pension fund out 75 years. Pensions for people who aren't even born yet to an entity that might not even exist by then. The USPS is self supporting. There are not tax dollars funding the USPS. It'll be sad to see it go.

Santa CruZin
02-18-2014, 06:37
.....

pugman
02-18-2014, 08:22
I work at a manufacturing facility in the South loosely related to Automotive, although we don't build cars or parts for them. Our corporate office was founded and remains located in a Northern state. We're privately held, with annual revenue in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Why manufacture in the South? Because a union got its fingers into the Northern operation on the manufacturing floor. Once unionized the company owners shut the manufacturing operation down, let most everyone go and moved it to a different state.

It's been made very clear that if a union gets into our new operation, the owners will do it again and everyone here can find something else to do. Those who want to move with the company in a non-union capacity would likely be welcome to do so.

I agree with the philosophy. If you want to see what unions do for America, take a stroll around what's left of Detroit.

My father retired from a small cap privately controlled/ publicly traded company about 6 years ago. The workers are part of the machinist division of UAW.

In the entire 42 years my father worked there the union never struck and only once in that time did they get within 10 days of the deadline of a contract signing.

Within the past 6 years the company expanded its manufacturing facilities in AZ (right across the border from Mexico) and Poland by 400% - both of these plants are non-union.

The union has turned down their last two contracts based on recommendation of the UAW. However, once the old timers who have already retired come back and talk to the workers the contract is then approved.

The UAW told workers to turn down a contract 6 years ago because the company took away their birthday as an automatic holiday. This contract still had raises built in with no change in health insurance premiums.

The UAW told workers to turn down their last contract because it had a 5% increase in health insurance premiums. This company is self funded. I work for the largest health insurance provider in the country and can assure you this company has coverage well beyond what the average person has. This insurance also has bulletproof coverage into retirement. My mom and dad's supplement, along with Medicare, pay $82/month and see no bills on anything...ever.

The UAW is poison.

SC Tiger
02-18-2014, 08:28
I said people like you. Not you. You're pretty insignificant in the big scheme of things. Management at the VW plant must be pretty good for the employees to reject UAW representation. All it will take is some future management team with a mindset like yours and the employees will welcome the UAW with open arms. That's how it's always been.

And the plant will likely wind up back in Germany after a few years. Dana just ripped a plant out of South Carolina and took the product back to Germany. Not because of a union (SC is right-to-work), but they did it.

I don't know that VW really understands how US unions (can) work. The other thing is that if VW only has one US plant and it is in Tennessee (a right-to-work state) then the union has less power. If they get too greedy VW can potentially just can every one of them and replace them with non-union labor.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 12:04
I work at a manufacturing facility in the South loosely related to Automotive, although we don't build cars or parts for them. Our corporate office was founded and remains located in a Northern state. We're privately held, with annual revenue in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Why manufacture in the South? Because a union got its fingers into the Northern operation on the manufacturing floor. Once unionized the company owners shut the manufacturing operation down, let most everyone go and moved it to a different state.

It's been made very clear that if a union gets into our new operation, the owners will do it again and everyone here can find something else to do. Those who want to move with the company in a non-union capacity would likely be welcome to do so.

I agree with the philosophy. If you want to see what unions do for America, take a stroll around what's left of Detroit.

More proof that companies and employees are free to relocate and become non union.

Detroit is the victim of white flight due to forced integration, not unions. You can't pay your obligations if your income moves away.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 12:18
My father retired from a small cap privately controlled/ publicly traded company about 6 years ago. The workers are part of the machinist division of UAW.

In the entire 42 years my father worked there the union never struck and only once in that time did they get within 10 days of the deadline of a contract signing.

Within the past 6 years the company expanded its manufacturing facilities in AZ (right across the border from Mexico) and Poland by 400% - both of these plants are non-union.

The union has turned down their last two contracts based on recommendation of the UAW. However, once the old timers who have already retired come back and talk to the workers the contract is then approved.

The UAW told workers to turn down a contract 6 years ago because the company took away their birthday as an automatic holiday. This contract still had raises built in with no change in health insurance premiums.

The UAW told workers to turn down their last contract because it had a 5% increase in health insurance premiums. This company is self funded. I work for the largest health insurance provider in the country and can assure you this company has coverage well beyond what the average person has. This insurance also has bulletproof coverage into retirement. My mom and dad's supplement, along with Medicare, pay $82/month and see no bills on anything...ever.

The UAW is poison.

The UAW has way more lucrative contracts than we have. We want to stay union and keep our jobs. Sometimes that means cuts to stay competitive with the global jobs market. Sucks but that Capitalism.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 12:21
And the plant will likely wind up back in Germany after a few years. Dana just ripped a plant out of South Carolina and took the product back to Germany. Not because of a union (SC is right-to-work), but they did it.

I don't know that VW really understands how US unions (can) work. The other thing is that if VW only has one US plant and it is in Tennessee (a right-to-work state) then the union has less power. If they get too greedy VW can potentially just can every one of them and replace them with non-union labor.

So we can't blame the unions for Dana's departure? How can that be?

czsmithGT
02-18-2014, 12:21
The USPS is circling the drain with or without their unions. It's unfortunate but the internet is replacing them. They have been excessing and automating for years and membership is dropping right along with it. It's just a matter of time. And then Congress ordered the USPS to pay I forget how many billions to their pension fund out 75 years. Pensions for people who aren't even born yet to an entity that might not even exist by then. The USPS is self supporting. There are not tax dollars funding the USPS. It'll be sad to see it go.


The Truth About The Post Office's Financial Mess


"Although accounting rules require the postal service to calculate future liabilities, including those for projected future employees, the law only requires pre-funding of obligations to actual current and past employees."

LL: So bottom line, the unions claim of the postal service pre-funding pensions for future workers is false?


Chairman Issa: Absolutely false. The non-partisan Congressional Research Service recently found that pre-funding requirements match Congress’ intent when they were enacted in 2006. The intent is to ensure that the growing unfunded liability for retiree health care for current employees is covered. These employees negotiated for and earned these benefits with their work, so USPS should pay for them.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432

ChuteTheMall
02-18-2014, 12:23
More proof that companies and employees are free to relocate and become non union.


Unless your name is Boeing.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 12:35
The Truth About The Post Office's Financial Mess


"Although accounting rules require the postal service to calculate future liabilities, including those for projected future employees, the law only requires pre-funding of obligations to actual current and past employees."

LL: So bottom line, the unions claim of the postal service pre-funding pensions for future workers is false?


Chairman Issa: Absolutely false. The non-partisan Congressional Research Service recently found that pre-funding requirements match Congress’ intent when they were enacted in 2006. The intent is to ensure that the growing unfunded liability for retiree health care for current employees is covered. These employees negotiated for and earned these benefits with their work, so USPS should pay for them.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432

That's interesting. Thanks! I'll look into it out of curiosity.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 12:40
Unless your name is Boeing.

Boeing execs ran off at the mouth about relocating for the sole purpose of displacing thousands of employees instead of siting expansion and financial reasons. This gets the attention of the NLRB union or non union. The union is who urged the NLRB to drop the charges.

SC Tiger
02-18-2014, 12:47
So we can't blame the unions for Dana's departure? How can that be?

It goes to show that a company will close a plant if conditions are right to do it. If a union gets too big for it's britches, they could cause the same thing

SC is right-to-work, so unions have very little power here comparatively speaking. I am told Roger Milken shuttered a Milken plant the day after it voted to go union. Sounds a little crazy but so was Roger.

Santa CruZin
02-18-2014, 12:49
More proof that companies and employees are free to relocate and become non union.

In other words, they're free to spend millions of dollars to move their operation and recruit and train new people in order to get back to normalcy after a union infected their original operation.

Yeah, that's progress.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 12:56
In other words, they're free to spend millions of dollars to move their operation and recruit and train new people in order to get back to normalcy after a union infected their original operation.

Yeah, that's progress.

Non union companies do it too and when $4 an hour Mexican labor is too much they do it again with a move to China or India. You're hell bent on blaming unions for everything yet even cheap non union wages aren't cheap enough to keep jobs here.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 13:06
It goes to show that a company will close a plant if conditions are right to do it. If a union gets too big for it's britches, they could cause the same thing

SC is right-to-work, so unions have very little power here comparatively speaking. I am told Roger Milken shuttered a Milken plant the day after it voted to go union. Sounds a little crazy but so was Roger.

We're a Right To Work law state here in Fl too. Have you looked at a RTW state map? Plenty of options for new or relocating businesses. Roger Milken was ready to retire anyhow and made a statement with it.

Z71bill
02-18-2014, 13:15
I work at a manufacturing facility in the South loosely related to Automotive, although we don't build cars or parts for them. Our corporate office was founded and remains located in a Northern state. We're privately held, with annual revenue in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Why manufacture in the South? Because a union got its fingers into the Northern operation on the manufacturing floor. Once unionized the company owners shut the manufacturing operation down, let most everyone go and moved it to a different state.

It's been made very clear that if a union gets into our new operation, the owners will do it again and everyone here can find something else to do. Those who want to move with the company in a non-union capacity would likely be welcome to do so.

I agree with the philosophy. If you want to see what unions do for America, take a stroll around what's left of Detroit.

What the owners did is a violation of labor laws.

It would be hard to find someone more anti-union that I am -but still - you need to be careful at how you do things - threatening jobs or pay if employees vote in a union is illegal.

Santa CruZin
02-18-2014, 13:33
What the owners did is a violation of labor laws.

It would be hard to find someone more anti-union that I am -but still - you need to be careful at how you do things - threatening jobs or pay if employees vote in a union is illegal.

True. My original post on this was a comment on how I perceive the general perception to be on the subject. I should have clarified better. It is my understanding that the non-union manufacturing plant in the South came to be due to a union coming into the Northern headquarters. I believe there may still be a small union presence there, so perhaps the approach was to throttle back the Northern group and expand Southward to ensure they didn't violate labor laws while mitigating union infiltration (i.e. it may not have been as strong as "you're all fired!").

Santa CruZin
02-18-2014, 13:47
Non union companies do it too and when $4 an hour Mexican labor is too much they do it again with a move to China or India. You're hell bent on blaming unions for everything yet even cheap non union wages aren't cheap enough to keep jobs here.

If they can't afford to pay non-union wages to the point of going offshore to stay competitive, what makes you think they'd do better with organized labor at four times the price?

SC Tiger
02-18-2014, 13:53
What the owners did is a violation of labor laws.

It would be hard to find someone more anti-union that I am -but still - you need to be careful at how you do things - threatening jobs or pay if employees vote in a union is illegal.

There are ways to get the point across though. Every company that is threatened with a union does it. You have to build deniability into everything you say.

That is why places where this is becoming an issue tell the low-level management not to discuss unions with workers. They want to be very careful with what is said.

I do want to say that not every union is the great evil that the UAW can be. My biggest complaint is that they (some of them) make things like process improvements all but impossible.

SC Tiger
02-18-2014, 13:56
We're a Right To Work law state here in Fl too. Have you looked at a RTW state map? Plenty of options for new or relocating businesses. Roger Milken was ready to retire anyhow and made a statement with it.

Have not looked at a RTW map but for the most part the northeast is right-to-organize I think.

If Miliken did what I am told he did I think he still had plenty of skin in the game as the sole owner of the company. This was years before he retired anyway.

His kids have taken over and really changed a lot of things.

czsmithGT
02-18-2014, 14:07
It goes to show that a company will close a plant if conditions are right to do it. If a union gets too big for it's britches, they could cause the same thing

SC is right-to-work, so unions have very little power here comparatively speaking. I am told Roger Milken shuttered a Milken plant the day after it voted to go union. Sounds a little crazy but so was Roger.

1956 case

http://books.google.com/books?id=25fiKB2UtSIC&pg=PA458&lpg=PA458&dq=milliken+closes+plant+due+to+union&source=bl&ots=YrUY08hLqB&sig=bpsou25DaTrAjclMWwMdGsLg-PQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X7wDU9nfNueF8gGr8ICIAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ

IndyGunFreak
02-18-2014, 14:10
- threatening jobs or pay if employees vote in a union is illegal.

They're not threatening jobs.. they offer to let employees relocate at their own expense... and they'll have a job.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 18:29
1956 case

http://books.google.com/books?id=25fiKB2UtSIC&pg=PA458&lpg=PA458&dq=milliken+closes+plant+due+to+union&source=bl&ots=YrUY08hLqB&sig=bpsou25DaTrAjclMWwMdGsLg-PQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X7wDU9nfNueF8gGr8ICIAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ

Here's a short read of the bigger picture. As cheap as labor was in the textile industry, it still wasn't cheap enough. You can site one AH in one instance for closing shop to make a statement but, the industry was dying union or not.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1019_041019_textile_mills.html

czsmithGT
02-18-2014, 19:25
Here's a short read of the bigger picture. As cheap as labor was in the textile industry, it still wasn't cheap enough. You can site one AH in one instance for closing shop to make a statement but, the industry was dying union or not.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1019_041019_textile_mills.html

I was just citing the Roger Milliken case which the person to whom I responded alluded to. I have no position on the textile industry even though I worked for a year in a Klopman Mills dying and finishing plant in Society Hill South Carolina and saw the conditions up close which existed at that time.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-18-2014, 19:44
I was just citing the Roger Milliken case which the person to whom I responded alluded to. I have no position on the textile industry even though I worked for a year in a Klopman Mills dying and finishing plant in Society Hill South Carolina and saw the conditions up close which existed at that time.

Got it!:thumbsup:

Z71bill
02-19-2014, 10:54
They're not threatening jobs.. they offer to let employees relocate at their own expense... and they'll have a job.

It is always subject to interpretation - and must be proven.

But if a company executive / owner says -

If the vote is in favor of the union I will close the plant and move it to another place -

This is 100% illegal and could result in a ton of issues for the company. Including being ordered to NOT move - and allowing the union to start collective bargaining EVEN IF the vote was against unionization.

It does not matter if he also says - but anyone that wants to move will be given a job.

It is still considered to be an "unfair labor practice".

BTW - even if the owner doesn't say anything - but decided right after a pro union vote - to close the plant and move it - there is a good chance he will be hit with a legal action that could block him from moving.

Anyone that thinks - it's my business - I will do what ever I want - needs to realize that is simply not the case.

The scales are definitely tipped in favor of unions.

Not saying you can't still get to the same place - close a union plant and move it to a non union state - but HOW you do it matters.

You need to take your time - have a "valid business reason" other than getting rid of the union.

:dunno:

vikingsoftpaw
02-19-2014, 11:26
The UAW is poison.

The UAW did quite well by the members, when automakers could sell an average vehicle for $40K. That profit margin was able to support good pay and benefits for management and labor.

Today the average American consumer wants to pay no more than $17K. That equaled bankruptcy for auto makers and a change of goals under that business plan.

Z71bill
02-19-2014, 13:02
The UAW did quite well by the members, when automakers could sell an average vehicle for $40K. That profit margin was able to support good pay and benefits for management and labor.

Today the average American consumer wants to pay no more than $17K. That equaled bankruptcy for auto makers and a change of goals under that business plan.

So as long as your business doesn't change or if your customers have no choice except to pay higher prices - the company can - pass the higher cost of unionization on to the customer and the business can survive.

Problem is - customers - in the long run - always figure out a better way to get their needs solved without paying the extra "tax" caused by unions.

And

Business always changes.

So in the long run union = poison.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 14:41
So as long as your business doesn't change or if your customers have no choice except to pay higher prices - the company can - pass the higher cost of unionization on to the customer and the business can survive.

Problem is - customers - in the long run - always figure out a better way to get their needs solved without paying the extra "tax" caused by unions.

And

Business always changes.

So in the long run union = poison.

When I bought my union built F250 XLT, it was $3k less than a comparably equipped Mexican made and built 2500 HD Ram. My $1601 MacBook was built using cheap Communist labor. Items are priced according to the market, not the cost of labor. A union built F250 costs between $2500 and $3000 in labor to build. Compared to the price of new trucks, that's a bargain. My Japanese built Prius cost almost as much as my truck did in 2010. Must be those greedy non union Japanese assemblers driving up the prices.

Z71bill
02-19-2014, 16:13
When I bought my union built F250 XLT, it was $3k less than a comparably equipped Mexican made and built 2500 HD Ram. My $1601 MacBook was built using cheap Communist labor. Items are priced according to the market, not the cost of labor. A union built F250 costs between $2500 and $3000 in labor to build. Compared to the price of new trucks, that's a bargain. My Japanese built Prius cost almost as much as my truck did in 2010. Must be those greedy non union Japanese assemblers driving up the prices.

Mostly true - short term pricing decision must meet competitive pricing.

The problem is not that companies sometimes drop the price in order to sell products / meet the competition - the issue is what happens in the LONG TERM.

Sure as the sun comes up - GM and Chrysler had to lower their prices to meet competitive forces - the result was they went bankrupt.

If you are trying to say that labor cost doesn't matter then that is a completely different thing.

In your world can a company pay significantly more than the competition for labor - then sell at a lower price and STAY IN BUSINESS?

That seems to be what you are saying - that would make you wrong.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 16:39
A union built F250 costs between $2500 and $3000 in labor to build.


What is the average price of a new 'average" F250 and what is the COGS on said "average" F250?

DanaT
02-19-2014, 16:43
For those of you that are so pro union (cough cough cough czsmithgt cough cough), since you support collective bargaining, do you also support businesses banding together and deciding to collectively bargain with workers for what they will pay.

It seems like it is only fair if the workers can band together and demand something, that the businesses owners in an area should be able to band together and come up with a common pricing strategy that they are willing to pay workers.

Z71bill
02-19-2014, 16:49
What is the average price of a new 'average" F250 and what is the COGS on said "average" F250?

Ford fiscal 2013 -


Sales of about $31 billion

COGS ~~ $25 billion

Net (loss) $750 million.


But costs don't matter - Ford can just keep paying high labor rates and still undercut other companies prices - even if they lose hundreds of million of dollars. :upeyes:

DanaT
02-19-2014, 16:58
Ford fiscal 2013 -


Sales of about $31 billion

COGS ~~ $25 billion

Net (loss) $750 million.


But costs don't matter - Ford can just keep paying high labor rates and still undercut other companies prices - even if they lose hundreds of million of dollars. :upeyes:

Generally COGS is 60-70% total labor. There is about 30-40% in materials, but then even the raw materials have a lot of labor in them.

Yes, you may buy part X for $100 and that isnt "labor" it is a "part" but in that $100 part, there is again between $60 and $70 in labor.

When you look at the true cost of labor, that is very very high.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:01
For those of you that are so pro union (cough cough cough czsmithgt cough cough), since you support collective bargaining, do you also support businesses banding together and deciding to collectively bargain with workers for what they will pay.

It seems like it is only fair if the workers can band together and demand something, that the businesses owners in an area should be able to band together and come up with a common pricing strategy that they are willing to pay workers.

They do. Every five years the companies that are signatory with our union bargain with our negotiators. It works out really well as it removes the wage differences between the companies.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:06
They do. Every five years the companies that are signatory with our union bargain with our negotiators. It works out really well as it removes the wage differences between the companies.

So you have no problem if businesses get together and decide collectively what they will pay, is that what I am hearing?

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:06
Generally COGS is 60-70% total labor. There is about 30-40% in materials, but then even the raw materials have a lot of labor in them.

Yes, you may buy part X for $100 and that isnt "labor" it is a "part" but in that $100 part, there is again between $60 and $70 in labor.

When you look at the true cost of labor, that is very very high.

Not even close.

czsmithGT
02-19-2014, 17:13
For those of you that are so pro union (cough cough cough czsmithgt cough cough), since you support collective bargaining, do you also support businesses banding together and deciding to collectively bargain with workers for what they will pay.

It seems like it is only fair if the workers can band together and demand something, that the businesses owners in an area should be able to band together and come up with a common pricing strategy that they are willing to pay workers.

What did I post that led you to draw the erroneous conclusion that I was "pro union"?

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:14
Not even close.

How many manufacturing company budgets do you run?

capnjim01
02-19-2014, 17:14
So you have no problem if businesses get together and decide collectively what they will pay, is that what I am hearing?

I believe that's called collusion.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:16
What did I post that led you to draw the erroneous conclusion that I was "pro union"?

Sorry...thinking 762 and typing you.....

Brain and fingers not working together...

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:17
Mostly true - short term pricing decision must meet competitive pricing.

The problem is not that companies sometimes drop the price in order to sell products / meet the competition - the issue is what happens in the LONG TERM.

Sure as the sun comes up - GM and Chrysler had to lower their prices to meet competitive forces - the result was they went bankrupt.

If you are trying to say that labor cost doesn't matter then that is a completely different thing.

In your world can a company pay significantly more than the competition for labor - then sell at a lower price and STAY IN BUSINESS?

That seems to be what you are saying - that would make you wrong.

GM offered some great looking cars in the '50s and '60s. From there it went downhill as the foreign cars flooded the market. They would be hurting even if not for union wages but the management folks who agreed to sign a contract that included lifetime health coverage didn't help matters. Of course labor costs matter. Even more so if you offer products that less and less people want. But that's not the fault of the assemblers. I wouldn't buy a Cobalt if it was half the price of a Prius. Oh wait, it is. Starting pay at GM is now $14 an hour I think? I don't think we'll be seeing anymore of those generous contracts with the UAW. Time will tell if management will do their part and offer vehicles people actually want. It might just be that the big three are getting a little long in the tooth and buyers want something different that the foreigners are offering. I would have gladly bought a union built hybrid Ford Focus for work but it's not offered.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:19
I believe that's called collusion.

What is the difference between employees deciding to make an agreement try to force higher pay with threats of labor stoppages and employers getting together and trying to force lower pay with the threats of employment stoppages?

How can someone justify one and not the other?

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:20
So, going back to VW...what people here dont get.

Multinational company.

They can easily (and legally) stop all US operations and "shut down." They have the ability to move out of the country if labor becomes too expensive.

czsmithGT
02-19-2014, 17:21
Generally COGS is 60-70% total labor. There is about 30-40% in materials, but then even the raw materials have a lot of labor in them.

Yes, you may buy part X for $100 and that isnt "labor" it is a "part" but in that $100 part, there is again between $60 and $70 in labor.

When you look at the true cost of labor, that is very very high.

Roughly speaking 10% of the cost to bring an automobile to market is direct labor. The other 90% is for such things as parts (materials), advertising, marketing, R&D, transportation, management, fixed overhead, etc.

Of course if you drill down far enough almost all the cost is added by the labor (work) of someone along the line including the guy in Saudi Arabia who brings lunch to the oil field worker who pumps the oil that gets turned into a plastic bumper- but I have a feeling that isn't what you have in mind.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:22
Oh wait, it is. Starting pay at GM is now $14 an hour I think?

A low skill manufacturing job has a prevailing wage in the range of $10-15hr depending upon the area its in.

I see nothing wrong with paying a low skill assembly job at $14/hr. In fact, that is generous.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:22
Anyone read the "Guns Of The Battle Of Blair Mountain" in the latest issue of American Rifleman? Times have changed, conditions have improved and wages have improved but the mentality hasn't changed at all. That's why we need to protect the 1st and 2nd Amendments equally.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:23
So, going back to VW...what people here dont get.

Multinational company.

They can easily (and legally) stop all US operations and "shut down." They have the ability to move out of the country if labor becomes too expensive.

Yes...

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:24
A low skill manufacturing job has a prevailing wage in the range of $10-15hr depending upon the area its in.

I see nothing wrong with paying a low skill assembly job at $14/hr. In fact, that is generous.

I see nothing wrong with it either. Don't jump to conclusions.:cool:

DanaT
02-19-2014, 17:24
Roughly speaking 10% of the cost to bring an automobile to market is direct labor. The other 90% is for such things as parts (materials), advertising, marketing, R&D, transportation, management, fixed overhead, etc.

Of course if you drill down far enough almost all the cost is added by the labor (work) of someone along the line including the guy in Saudi Arabia who brings lunch to the oil field worker who pumps the oil that gets turned into a plastic bumper- but I have a feeling that isn't what you have in mind.

Direct labor and labor are different. I said 60 to 70% is total labor. You notice I didnt say "direct" labor. There is much more than direct labor.

czsmithGT
02-19-2014, 17:26
So, going back to VW...what people here dont get.

Multinational company.

They can easily (and legally) stop all US operations and "shut down." They have the ability to move out of the country if labor becomes too expensive.

They only have one plant in the US. They DID shut down their previous sole US plant, the Westmoreland Assembly Plant (New Stanton Pa) in 1988 so yes theoretically they could shut down Chattanooga as well. With all the sunk costs there, roughly a billion $$, it isn't likely they will do that any time soon, but they WILL most definitely put their upcoming North America expansion in Mexico if they don't like what they are getting in Tn.

czsmithGT
02-19-2014, 17:29
Direct labor and labor are different. I said 60 to 70% is total labor. You notice I didnt say "direct" labor. There is much more than direct labor.

OK you are still wrong unless you assume the labor of every thing that went into a plant that cost a billion dollars to purchase the land and construct and equip plus categorize salary personnel and management as "labor" which is not the normal usage.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 17:30
How many manufacturing company budgets do you run?

None. But I see the mark ups on our parts and supplies. Sometimes 400% even at wholesale. My mom worked in corporate offices for JC Penny years ago. The mark ups for retail from wholesale is obscene. The marketing departments are pure genius to pull it off. Now we have $65k pickup trucks that you can steal for $55k and think you got a bargain. And you're going to try to convince me it's not a marketing numbers game? Yes there's labor all down through the chain but most of it is cheap foreign labor. My union built F250 has China stamped all over it an in it. My Prius probably cost more in labor to build.
I'm going to get some chicken! Be right back!:wavey::supergrin:

Z71bill
02-19-2014, 17:40
None. But I see the mark ups on our parts and supplies. Sometimes 400% even at wholesale. My mom worked in corporate offices for JC Penny years ago. The mark ups for retail from wholesale is obscene. The marketing departments are pure genius to pull it off. Now we have $65k pickup trucks that you can steal for $55k and think you got a bargain. And you're going to try to convince me it's not a marketing numbers game? Yes there's labor all down through the chain but most of it is cheap foreign labor. My union built F250 has China stamped all over it an in it. My Prius probably cost more in labor to build.
I'm going to get some chicken! Be right back!:wavey::supergrin:

Mark ups for most manufactured goods always seem high but there are a lot of costs that are required not included in COGS.

If your "union built" Ford was all UAW built without any cheap foreign labor it would cost much more - so in a way - the UAW is even smart enough to figure out they need cheap foreign labor - otherwise they would all lose their jobs. :dunno:

Sort of ironic isn't it - American unions can't survive without cheap foreign labor. :rofl:

DanaT
02-19-2014, 18:05
Mark ups for most manufactured goods always seem high but there are a lot of costs that are required not included in COGS.

If your "union built" Ford was all UAW built without any cheap foreign labor it would cost much more - so in a way - the UAW is even smart enough to figure out they need cheap foreign labor - otherwise they would all lose their jobs. :dunno:

Sort of ironic isn't it - American unions can't survive without cheap foreign labor. :rofl:

Isn't it strange with a "400% markup" that a company running a 15% margin is doing very well.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 18:11
OK you are still wrong unless you assume the labor of every thing that went into a plant that cost a billion dollars to purchase the land and construct and equip plus categorize salary personnel and management as "labor" which is not the normal usage.

Take upper management out as although thier salaries look high, in the bigger budget the are very small.

You want to discount the cost of overhead positions. Go look at a company budget and you will find typically 60-70% goes out in payroll (labor) expenses.
No that is not direct labor factored into COGS but the overhead position such a janitor to clean the workers bathrooms must be financed with the sale of goods/service.

There are no ways around it, employees are the biggest cost to a company. Paying more only skews this more.

googanelli
02-19-2014, 18:14
In my industry (the railroad), this is exactly what the companies do. Infact, recently, they've wanted to go back to on property agreements as it allows (surprise) for the two sides to understand each others needs more.

Joe



For those of you that are so pro union (cough cough cough czsmithgt cough cough), since you support collective bargaining, do you also support businesses banding together and deciding to collectively bargain with workers for what they will pay.

It seems like it is only fair if the workers can band together and demand something, that the businesses owners in an area should be able to band together and come up with a common pricing strategy that they are willing to pay workers.

DanaT
02-19-2014, 18:24
In my industry (the railroad), this is exactly what the companies do. Infact, recently, they've wanted to go back to on property agreements as it allows (surprise) for the two sides to understand each others needs more.

Joe

Understanding an employees needs and vice versa is a good way to come to a good solution for both sides.

I just loath workers who can't stand on their own merits and need to ride the coattails of other workers

Glock+2
02-19-2014, 18:57
I always love the union bashing. FWIW, yes, I am in a union and think my union sucks. Let's start from there. I work in transportation and the company (and other companies who are non union today) historically treated their employees horribly. Yes, federal laws have been written to attempt to provide the protections that the unions fight to gain as well (overtime, safety, etc). What I can tell you is that the industry I am in STILL has their hand around Washington's neck as well as their workers. We still have major issues that come up daily.

The reason I am pro union is the same reason I am in the NRA; Me walking in the door to try and get something changed or fixed in a company with 26k workers just doesn't happen. It doesn't matter if it is a smart move or not.

Unions vs Companies is the same as Dems v Repubs. It's the same mindset. There is a yin and yang for a reason.

BTW, I vote libertarian.

Joe

....and united auto union workers are highly overpaid, it is non-skilled jobs, that is why the people that voted for a union wanted it, to protect there jobs....if you don't like where you work, quit!!!

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 19:19
Take upper management out as although thier salaries look high, in the bigger budget the are very small.

You want to discount the cost of overhead positions. Go look at a company budget and you will find typically 60-70% goes out in payroll (labor) expenses.
No that is not direct labor factored into COGS but the overhead position such a janitor to clean the workers bathrooms must be financed with the sale of goods/service.

There are no ways around it, employees are the biggest cost to a company. Paying more only skews this more.

Employers want slave labor. Employees want to be paid for their work. The market will determine the balance. Employees have discovered that collectively, they can bargain for more. Sounds like free market to me. Roger Milliken could have easily afforded to pay union textile wages and still been wealthier than everyone around him. But his disdain for the hourly wage earner was as bitter as it is with some here.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 19:31
....and united auto union workers are highly overpaid, it is non-skilled jobs, that is why the people that voted for a union wanted it, to protect there jobs....if you don't like where you work, quit!!!

Judging by the fit and finish of my vehicles over the years, I'd have to conclude there's a certain amount of skill on an assembly line. If nothing else, repetitive work day after day all day long isn't easy. There's probably a lot of people who think you're overpaid. What do you do? Push a pencil? Click on a computer all day? Oh, you're a contractor so you have a bunch of Mexicans doing your work for you? See you can minimize and belittle anyone's job. There's a lot of self indulgence and hypocrisy around here. If management at the time those lucrative contracts were signed didn't think the employees were worth what the bargaining agents asked for, they shouldn't have signed. Don't blame the union for wanting more. We all want more. Put the blame where it belongs. Short sighted management.

Atlas
02-19-2014, 19:38
I'm sure VW is in it for the long run in Chattanooga, but modern automotive assembly plant equipment is incredibly modular.

From conveyors to robot assembly/welding cells, e-coat systems, robotic paint systems, inspection-stations to ASRS systems...
Supplier/integrators such as Eisenmann, Comau Pico, Durr, ABB, and Kuka have perfected the art of building such large-scale automotive manufacturing systems that can be unloaded in modules from ships to rail cars to trucks then set in place in the facility and bolted to the floor.

Connect those installed work-cells and systems to electric power, water, and compressed air and you've got an "instant" car factory. ("instant" being an exaggeration really only in terms of time... not labor, logistics, etc)

Even a facility on the scale of the VW plant in Chattanooga can be unbolted, loaded up, moved, and re-instantiated elsewhere given sufficient motivation.

Glock+2
02-19-2014, 19:49
Judging by the fit and finish of my vehicles over the years, I'd have to conclude there's a certain amount of skill on an assembly line. If nothing else, repetitive work day after day all day long isn't easy. There's probably a lot of people who think you're overpaid. What do you do? Push a pencil? Click on a computer all day? Oh, you're a contractor so you have a bunch of Mexicans doing your work for you? See you can minimize and belittle anyone's job. There's a lot of self indulgence and hypocrisy around here. If management at the time those lucrative contracts were signed didn't think the employees were worth what the bargaining agents asked for, they shouldn't have signed. Don't blame the union for wanting more. We all want more. Put the blame where it belongs. Short sighted management.

If you think you are overworked, underpaid, not appreciated, not respected and all the other BS you come up with...QUIT

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 20:11
If you think you are overworked, underpaid, not appreciated, not respected and all the other BS you come up with...QUIT

You're very presumptuous aren't you. NOWHERE did I say any of that. You did. I'm very happy with my job, pay and plan on staying put 'til retirement age. Do you have any other BS to spew?

vikingsoftpaw
02-19-2014, 20:45
Items are priced according to the market, not the cost of labor. A union built F250 costs between $2500 and $3000 in labor to build. Compared to the price of new trucks, that's a bargain.

A little know fact is the cost of labor needed to build your F250 and Fusion are the same. The Fusion's material cost would be a bit lower though. They can't sell a Fusion for a much as the F250, although they (unions and car cos.) wish they could.

For those of you that are so pro union (cough cough cough czsmithgt cough cough), since you support collective bargaining, do you also support businesses banding together and deciding to collectively bargain with workers for what they will pay.

I think those were called 'Trusts'. They were declared illegal after the age of the robber-barons. See Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 20:53
A little know fact is the cost of labor needed to build your F250 and Fusion are the same. The Fusion's material cost would be a bit lower though. They can't sell a Fusion for a much as the F250, although they (unions and car cos.) wish they could.

The Fusion was built and I believe largely "made" in Mexico. It could be said that it's reasonable price reflected the cheap Mexican labor but in reality the price is set by what we're willing to pay for it. Hopefully Ford makes a decent profit on the Fusion. It's a nice car at a reasonable price. Reasonable being a matter of opinion.

Tiro Fijo
02-19-2014, 21:04
I knew a fella once who was the most rabid anti-union human it was my displeasure to know. He worked for an international corp. with a relative as his benefactor in the co. heirarchy. One day they canned the benefactor. Shortly thereafter they canned him. He lost his health ins. and has a malady that prevents him from buying his own health ins. due to the cost (and being unemployed). He's right at 50 and cannot find a job. He stands to lose everything.


I have found that the most vehement anti-union people are usually those who are jealous as they don't make Jack Schitt, or the arrogant types that think they are immune to losing their jobs. Anyone can be replaced and it is ever so humbling when it happens. Pride goes before the fall.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 21:12
Just looked it up and was surprised at what I found. My Prius is union made. I didn't realize Japan had unions. Good for them. No wonder Toyota, Honda and Nissan are failing miserably due to the high cost of labor.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140212/OEM01/140219953/japanese-auto-workers-seek-pay-raises-amid-soaring-profits#

SevenSixtyTwo
02-19-2014, 21:14
I knew a fella once who was the most rabid anti-union human it was my displeasure to know. He worked for an international corp. with a relative as his benefactor in the co. heirarchy. One day they canned the benefactor. Shortly thereafter they canned him. He lost his health ins. and has a malady that prevents him from buying his own health ins. due to the cost (and being unemployed). He's right at 50 and cannot find a job. He stands to lose everything.


I have found that the most vehement anti-union people are usually those who are jealous as they don't make Jack Schitt, or the arrogant types that think they are immune to losing their jobs. Anyone can be replaced and it is ever so humbling when it happens. Pride goes before the fall.

I've noticed that too.

Atlas
02-19-2014, 21:31
I knew a fella once who was the most rabid anti-union human it was my displeasure to know. He worked for an international corp. with a relative as his benefactor in the co. heirarchy. One day they canned the benefactor. Shortly thereafter they canned him. He lost his health ins. and has a malady that prevents him from buying his own health ins. due to the cost (and being unemployed). He's right at 50 and cannot find a job. He stands to lose everything.


I have found that the most vehement anti-union people are usually those who are jealous as they don't make Jack Schitt, or the arrogant types that think they are immune to losing their jobs. Anyone can be replaced and it is ever so humbling when it happens. Pride goes before the fall.


I'm well past 50. I get my work where I can find it. I negotiate for myself for each and every job, often several times per year. I'm not "immune to losing my job"... I lost my job about 30 years ago and said "never again". I make my own "jobs".

I work in engineering and design for more types of manufacturing and defense-related industries than most people even know exist.

I'm completely, 100% self-taught in everything I do.
I get no "benefits" and have zero "job security".
I don't need ANYONE to negotiate for me or represent me and would not allow anyone to do so, ever.

If I found myself with no better possibilities in the next few days or weeks I would go to Chattanooga and find work, no doubt, no worry. Why can I say that? Because I've taught myself several new/latest technologies that I know VW uses and depends on, not in one or two places but throughout their shiny new facility.

You can do the same... everything you need to know is available to you for free, right here on the internet..
All you need is intense focus, determination, and discipline.

And with that specific knowledge and some persistence you can go to Chattanooga or to the BMW facility in Carolina and net at least $1800 - $3000 per week working 40-45 hours per.

And you won't need any union to negotiate for you. You won't need anyone else to secure better conditions or "fair treatment". And if you're good you can probably secure a contract for at least a year, maybe two or more. Make it that far and you should be able to negotiate about 40% more for another year or so.

And you can have a helluva lot of fun doing it if you're into that sort of thing..

Wanna try it?
PM me and I'll send you some internet links to get you started..

And I'm doing just fine, thanks..

fg17
02-20-2014, 01:42
I'm well past 50. I get my work where I can find it. I negotiate for myself for each and every job, often several times per year. I'm not "immune to losing my job"... I lost my job about 30 years ago and said "never again". I make my own "jobs".

I work in engineering and design for more types of manufacturing and defense-related industries than most people even know exist.

I'm completely, 100% self-taught in everything I do.
I get no "benefits" and have zero "job security".
I don't need ANYONE to negotiate for me or represent me and would not allow anyone to do so, ever.

If I found myself with no better possibilities in the next few days or weeks I would go to Chattanooga and find work, no doubt, no worry. Why can I say that? Because I've taught myself several new/latest technologies that I know VW uses and depends on, not in one or two places but throughout their shiny new facility.

You can do the same... everything you need to know is available to you for free, right here on the internet..
All you need is intense focus, determination, and discipline.

And with that specific knowledge and some persistence you can go to Chattanooga or to the BMW facility in Carolina and net at least $1800 - $3000 per week working 40-45 hours per.

And you won't need any union to negotiate for you. You won't need anyone else to secure better conditions or "fair treatment". And if you're good you can probably secure a contract for at least a year, maybe two or more. Make it that far and you should be able to negotiate about 40% more for another year or so.

And you can have a helluva lot of fun doing it if you're into that sort of thing..

Wanna try it?
PM me and I'll send you some internet links to get you started..

And I'm doing just fine, thanks... Cool story bro. You are the smartest, hardest working guy on the internet. Think rather highly of your self don't you.
:rofl:

DanaT
02-20-2014, 01:53
I think those were called 'Trusts'. They were declared illegal after the age of the robber-barons. See Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

The Sherman anti trust act did not regulate labor. It prevents price setting via monopolies.

But none the less, philosophically how does one justify that employees should be able to band together to try and manipulate market wages up while employers shouldn't be allowed to band together to attempt to manipulate the value of labor down?

fg17
02-20-2014, 02:03
I have been in the offset printing trade for more than 20 years.

New hires with no experience start around $10 an hour (I have worked in 4 states and it is similar).

Once you can operate equipment to standards wages seem to range in the $13-18 range in the bindery with slightly higher in the press room.

It takes years of training to be able to run multiple machines well.

I wonder what is so inherently difficult about an assembly line that people scream about how unreasonable $13 for entry level unskilled help is.

I am content in my trade, as are many others.

I worked hard to build my skills and advance to a supervisory role.

I will likely continue to apply myself and eventually step to the next level in management.

I have not needed a union to hold my hand, and am glad that I could be advanced based solely on my own merits.

To those of your who cannot survive without others help, or advance.....try reporting a half hour early every day, taking no sick days, and striving to be the best at what you do every hour you are on the clock.

You might be amazed to see how many people you can pass on your way up the ladder.

Competence and hard work will always be rewarded, if not by your current employer than by some person or company who will ultimately be more successful.. No wonder a lot of printing companies move down south. Good bindery workers here are paid 22-27 dollars per hour. Most non union.

Tiro Fijo
02-20-2014, 02:34
I'm well past 50. I get my work where I can find it. I negotiate for myself for each and every job, often several times per year. I'm not "immune to losing my job"... I lost my job about 30 years ago and said "never again". I make my own "jobs"...




Give me one hour on the Internet and I can find someone who can do YOUR job cheaper, even if the company has to use an H-IB visa to get him/her. There are very few "Mozarts" in the World.

fg17
02-20-2014, 02:50
At another job, I also have an equally ridiculous story about how I nearly KO'd a union rep who insisted on "representing" me during a hearing when I'd made quite clear before we walked in, his only job was to STFU, I didn't even want him in there but policy said I had to. All that union did was keep people who should have been fired, from being fired. Oh and raises? We got raises, pretty good raises, but what irritated me... I never got a single write up in several years there, was always on time, etc.. I got the same raise as the guy who was always late, constantly getting written up and reprimanded, etc.. Why? Because he'd been there the same number of years as me.

Screw unions. I think they are the bane of the American work force.
So you nearly ko'd a guy for speaking and doing his job? What a guy. I have knocked out a lot of guys for trying to do me bodily harm, but never anyone for trying to help me, even if it was un wanted help. FWIW I dont belong to a union and I am quite happy where I work at.

Atlas
02-20-2014, 05:24
Give me one hour on the Internet and I can find someone who can do YOUR job cheaper, even if the company has to use an H-IB visa to get him/her. There are very few "Mozarts" in the World.

Sure you can....

Your assertion is meaningless.
Can you find someone who can do it better?
Can you find someone who will be able to sell his work more successfully than I to VW? Or to Mercedes? Or to Eisenmann?
Or Siemens?

You say "I can find someone who can do your job cheaper.."
That's completely, 100% meaningless when you don't even know what that "job" is..

It isn't "a job" you're telling me you can outsource so easily.
I make it a point to offer a range of skills and abilities.
You see, it's an uncertain world out there. I never know what is gonna be in demand, what will be most marketable that week.


If I had only a single skill or ability to offer then I would be very afraid and feel insecure. So to deal with the randomness of life out there in the cold cruel world I make certain that I can offer as many skills and abilities as I can possibly find time and energy to learn and develop.


There are others all over the U.S. and around the world who do what I do. And some would offer to do it for less, some do it for much more.... What's your point exactly? Because there are others who may do some or all of what I do that I may as well stay home and let some union do my selling for me?


Your premise was that without the "organized, professional representation" of a paid union professional, the "little guy" may get stomped on out there in the cold harsh world.

I get stomped on from time to time. I also fail on a regular basis. Sometimes I'm taken advantage of. Very occasionally I get cheated.

What do I do about it? I learn from it, and then go out and find another opportunity the following week. And I do it by representing my own interests, by demonstrating that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to create value for someone else, to find ways to help them be profitable.

If I needed to find work at VW in Chattanooga, one thing I might offer to VW is to train others to use certain technologies. That too is something I offer. So instead of being dependent on what I myself can do, I would be paid to help others become more productive.


VW won't give a rat's butt about me. And no union on earth is gonna convince VW to worry about whether I make a "living wage".

VW is concerned about one single thing... making a profit by building automobiles.

What I can do to possibly share in VW's success is find a way to demonstrate to VW management that I can contribute toward helping them to that specific goal, making a profit by building automobiles.

If I can demonstrate to them that I am able to add value to what they do, then there is a strong possibility that they will want to help me make more profit.

And if that happens, I don't have to care whether VW cares about me as an individual. They don't have to care whether I have sufficient health care or whether I am able to raise a family on what they pay me. All that will be my concern, and my concern alone. As it should be.


If I can sell my time and effort to VW then we'll make a contract in agreement of what I am to provide to them and specifying what they are to provide me. From that point the law will protect their interest and mine. And no union will get a cut of it.

.

Atlas
02-20-2014, 05:39
. Cool story bro. You are the smartest, hardest working guy on the internet.

No, I know and work with people who are much, much "smarter" than I.

At the moment I'm working with some guys on a defense project who are scary-smart. And to a man every one of them is far better educated than I.


The company for which I'm presently working called and asked me to work on the current project because I worked for them for 6 months in 2012..

I demonstrated to them at that time that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get the results they want and need..
That's all they care about. And twice a month when they make a deposit into my bank account, it's all I care about.

And there's no union involved. I can't think of a union on earth that would even know where to begin to try to get involved.



...Think rather highly of your self don't you.
:rofl:

Yes, for all my many weaknesses and faults personally, professionally, and educationally, I do "think a lot of myself".

If I did not, what would I have to offer to any potential employer? That I show up on time? They don't really care about that anyway.

Thinking "a lot of myself" is why I have no need of anyone else to represent my interests, no need for any union.


Oh yeah, I forgot this part of your comment..
... :rofl:

Laugh all you wish.. that's what I try to do every day. They say that it's healthy. I believe it.


.

Tiro Fijo
02-20-2014, 05:43
...That's completely, 100% meaningless when you don't even know what that "job" is..
.





Then tell us what it is you do that is so "special"? Stumbled upon cold fusion? World leading cancer researcher? :upeyes:

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 06:14
I'm well past 50. I get my work where I can find it. I negotiate for myself for each and every job, often several times per year. I'm not "immune to losing my job"... I lost my job about 30 years ago and said "never again". I make my own "jobs".

I work in engineering and design for more types of manufacturing and defense-related industries than most people even know exist.

I'm completely, 100% self-taught in everything I do.
I get no "benefits" and have zero "job security".
I don't need ANYONE to negotiate for me or represent me and would not allow anyone to do so, ever.

If I found myself with no better possibilities in the next few days or weeks I would go to Chattanooga and find work, no doubt, no worry. Why can I say that? Because I've taught myself several new/latest technologies that I know VW uses and depends on, not in one or two places but throughout their shiny new facility.

You can do the same... everything you need to know is available to you for free, right here on the internet..
All you need is intense focus, determination, and discipline.

And with that specific knowledge and some persistence you can go to Chattanooga or to the BMW facility in Carolina and net at least $1800 - $3000 per week working 40-45 hours per.

And you won't need any union to negotiate for you. You won't need anyone else to secure better conditions or "fair treatment". And if you're good you can probably secure a contract for at least a year, maybe two or more. Make it that far and you should be able to negotiate about 40% more for another year or so.

And you can have a helluva lot of fun doing it if you're into that sort of thing..

Wanna try it?
PM me and I'll send you some internet links to get you started..

And I'm doing just fine, thanks..

If you're so good that you can go anywhere and a job opening for your specialty magically opens at your presence as if it weren't already filled and they've been completely puzzled and perplex until your arrival, how did you manage to lose your job 30 years ago? Me thinks you're blowing smoke.

Atlas
02-20-2014, 06:17
Give me one hour on the Internet and I can find someone who can do YOUR job cheaper, even if the company has to use an H-IB visa to get him/her. There are very few "Mozarts" in the World.


If you can do what you claim, then you can easily make many many multiples of what I earn and do so with much less effort.

You can do that by being these people:

http://www.aerotek.com/

https://www.volt.com/template_wfs_practice_areas.aspx?id=894

http://www.patriottechnical.com/

http://www.yoh.com/

http://www.oxfordcorp.com/


... and with a few more minutes to waste I can link you to 30 or 40 more of the same.

You see, these people get filthy rich by having thousands of professional recruiters working 8-5 every day trying to do what you keep asserting that YOU can do with no effort at all.

Keep on believing it if you wish.... but are you making any PROFIT with that belief?

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 06:20
Then tell us what it is you do that is so "special"? Stumbled upon cold fusion? World leading cancer researcher? :upeyes:

He wrote a song about himself and now he and Mac Davis go around singing at various factories.:rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCsNunGnqE0

Atlas
02-20-2014, 06:25
... how did you manage to lose your job 30 years ago? Me thinks you're blowing smoke.

I was a kid, lacking all but a tiny fraction of my present qualifications and experience, and I got "laid off".

What a silly-assed question...


If you're so good that you can go anywhere and a job opening for your specialty magically opens at your presence as if it weren't already filled and they've been completely puzzled and perplex until your arrival,...

If you were paying attention at all, you would realize that everything I've been posting is the exact opposite of what you just posted....

It isn't easy... I have to scratch and struggle to get the work. All the time, every day.
Doors most assuredly DO NOT open magically.
You gotta go out and shove the doors open.

That's precisely because of the point you and others have been nibbling around.... it's a big world out there. There's a LOT of competition. You have to start early every day, you have to try harder, be willing to fail often and then try again, and you have to deliver focused intensity and discipline.

You gotta find ways to create value. In the end, that is all the world cares about.


Do that and you have no need of any union.

.

Atlas
02-20-2014, 06:30
Then tell us what it is you do that is so "special"? Stumbled upon cold fusion? World leading cancer researcher? :upeyes:

Not "special" at all..

I design and program automation systems for industry and manufacturing, SCADA, remote telemetry, and I design automation systems for marine applications and shipboard machinery controls.

As part of that effort I also do a lot of technical writing and training.


My primary specialty is PLC programming and SCADA.
At present I'm working on a project for a company that builds shipboard electrical power-management systems for the Navy. Got another 3 -5 months to go on that one.

And at that, I gotta get gone and start the work day.
Ya'll take care and stay safe. :wavey:

IndyGunFreak
02-20-2014, 07:11
So you nearly ko'd a guy for speaking and doing his job? What a guy. I have knocked out a lot of guys for trying to do me bodily harm, but never anyone for trying to help me, even if it was un wanted help. FWIW I dont belong to a union and I am quite happy where I work at.

Basically.

The whole issue for him was.. this place, Union membership was optional, so I did not join (as did a lot of others). However, per the contract, he had to represent me even though I didn't pay dues. The whole issue, involved 2 people who DID pay dues, and their performance (or lack of) resulted in a man dying. I knew I'd done nothing wrong and I didn't need him to tell mgmt I'd done nothing wrong. They already knew, however he insisted on "representing" me. If I wanted union representation, I would have paid dues.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 09:48
Basically.

The whole issue for him was.. this place, Union membership was optional, so I did not join (as did a lot of others). However, per the contract, he had to represent me even though I didn't pay dues. The whole issue, involved 2 people who DID pay dues, and their performance (or lack of) resulted in a man dying. I knew I'd done nothing wrong and I didn't need him to tell mgmt I'd done nothing wrong. They already knew, however he insisted on "representing" me. If I wanted union representation, I would have paid dues.

He's required by law to represent you. He can keep it minimal but he still has to represent. Have no doubt he would just as soon not. Physical assault is illegal union or non.

fg17
02-20-2014, 09:50
Basically.

The whole issue for him was.. this place, Union membership was optional, so I did not join (as did a lot of others). However, per the contract, he had to represent me even though I didn't pay dues. The whole issue, involved 2 people who DID pay dues, and their performance (or lack of) resulted in a man dying. I knew I'd done nothing wrong and I didn't need him to tell mgmt I'd done nothing wrong. They already knew, however he insisted on "representing" me. If I wanted union representation, I would have paid dues. thanks for the explanation. Now I understand better. If it had something to do with a death I would have wanted my lawyer present before anyone else, even if I wasn't at fault. As someone who has seen first hand the result of workplace violence I am just a little sensitive to the subject.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 09:53
I was a kid, lacking all but a tiny fraction of my present qualifications and experience, and I got "laid off".

What a silly-assed question...




If you were paying attention at all, you would realize that everything I've been posting is the exact opposite of what you just posted....

It isn't easy... I have to scratch and struggle to get the work. All the time, every day.
Doors most assuredly DO NOT open magically.
You gotta go out and shove the doors open.

That's precisely because of the point you and others have been nibbling around.... it's a big world out there. There's a LOT of competition. You have to start early every day, you have to try harder, be willing to fail often and then try again, and you have to deliver focused intensity and discipline.

You gotta find ways to create value. In the end, that is all the world cares about.


Do that and you have no need of any union.

.

If you were that good you would be in high demand and wouldn't have to scratch and struggle.

fg17
02-20-2014, 10:16
No, I know and work with people who are much, much "smarter" than I.

At the moment I'm working with some guys on a defense project who are scary-smart. And to a man every one of them is far better educated than I.



Laugh all you wish.. that's what I try to do every day. They say that it's healthy. I believe it.


.


Perhaps I misjudged you. You sound a little more humble than I originally thought and you actually laugh everyday, good for you. Like I said I am not in a union. I do have a lot of friends in trade unions and all of them are hard working, skillful and fast at what they do. Also I believe the police and firefighters that charged into the WTC on 9/11 where all unionized, I did not see a whole lot of so called union slackers on that day. I get if you don't like unions, I just don't buy that the stereotypical union slacker is the norm.

SC Tiger
02-20-2014, 10:19
Sure you can....

Your assertion is meaningless.
Can you find someone who can do it better?
Can you find someone who will be able to sell his work more successfully than I to VW? Or to Mercedes? Or to Eisenmann?
Or Siemens?


.

Gonna add one more: "Can I get the son of a ##### on the phone when the thing he programmed starts slinging parts all over the place because one of my techs screwed it up trying to fix something else?"

Having dealt with custom-made and custom-programmed systems a little bit, this is kind of a big deal.

BTW - have you done any work in the Electrolux/Husqavarne plant in Orangeburg, SC?

No, we never had my scenario happen. I just remember you have worked in this area before.

WayneJessie
02-20-2014, 10:25
Having worked for two major import manufacturers here in the South for my whole career I can tell you two things about those two.
1. As a whole, their workers are tickled to death with their companies. Most love their jobs.
2. The two I worked for made it plain when they moved there that they've got more than enough cash to move their operations should the mafia try to organize their plants. I don't blame them either.
W.Va. is a different climate than S.C. and other Southern states. It would be inaccurate to try to compare them.
Organized labor has took some pretty massive hits over the last few years. They aren't gaining ground as some would try to suggest.

DanaT
02-20-2014, 10:29
That's precisely because of the point you and others have been nibbling around.... it's a big world out there. There's a LOT of competition. You have to start early every day, you have to try harder, be willing to fail often and then try again, and you have to deliver focused intensity and discipline.

You gotta find ways to create value. In the end, that is all the world cares about.


Do that and you have no need of any union.

.

They dont get it. Never will.

Why all of these guys were sleeping, I was on a flight across the pond. Sleep 2 or 3 hours. Arrive in FRA at 9am and start a new day of work. It is now 17:30 in FRA and guess what. My day is starting again because I now have a few hours of business to due with people in the USA.

Nothing I have is because I rode the coat-tails of others. I didnt get "lucky"; I made my "luck" happen.

But I guess one of my ex-employees could have benefited from a union. I fired him Tuesday before I left for Europe. I guess a union would have protected him from taking a personal phone call during a meeting with me (at work, on work time). He was fired within a half hour of that episode.

DanaT
02-20-2014, 10:34
If you were that good you would be in high demand and wouldn't have to scratch and struggle.

You sound like a person who has never been responsible for ensuring funds for yoru own paycheck let alone coming up with money to pay other people.

You seem to have this belief that money just falls from the sky.

Tiro Fijo
02-20-2014, 12:20
They dont get it. Never will.

Why all of these guys were sleeping, I was on a flight across the pond. Sleep 2 or 3 hours. Arrive in FRA at 9am and start a new day of work. It is now 17:30 in FRA and guess what. My day is starting again because I now have a few hours of business to due with people in the USA...




So what is it exactly that you do, Mr. International Jet Setter?

DanaT
02-20-2014, 12:24
So what is it exactly that you do, Mr. International Jet Setter?

Implants.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 15:14
You sound like a person who has never been responsible for ensuring funds for yoru own paycheck let alone coming up with money to pay other people.

You seem to have this belief that money just falls from the sky.

No, I make a lot of money for the company and they pay well to do it.

devildog2067
02-20-2014, 15:25
If you were that good you would be in high demand and wouldn't have to scratch and struggle.

No matter how high the demand, you ALWAYS scratch and struggle. I work for one of the most prestigious consulting firms on the planet and the partners are out there fighting for business every day. Nothing sells itself.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 16:29
No matter how high the demand, you ALWAYS scratch and struggle. I work for one of the most prestigious consulting firms on the planet and the partners are out there fighting for business every day. Nothing sells itself.

This is well understood but in the context of things, to insinuate that a huge plant like the new VW plant would hire some guy off the street to design and engineer their automated production facility after it's built is ludicrous. They had already hired a consulting firm like you apparently work for, reputable engineering firms and architects to layout the plant long before it was built. And I gather you have a steady job.

Tiro Fijo
02-20-2014, 16:48
Implants.





I know a Colombian plastic surgeon that specializes in implants. It's about 4K to be "reknockered".




:rofl:

AirCav
02-20-2014, 17:54
No matter how high the demand, you ALWAYS scratch and struggle. I work for one of the most prestigious consulting firms on the planet and the partners are out there fighting for business every day. Nothing sells itself.So when does the whole "made in the shade" part come in? I thought that applied to any fat cat making more money than me? ;)

Atlas
02-20-2014, 19:38
If you were that good you would be in high demand and wouldn't have to scratch and struggle.

This is well understood but in the context of things, to insinuate that a huge plant like the new VW plant would hire some guy off the street to design and engineer their automated production facility after it's built is ludicrous. They had already hired a consulting firm like you apparently work for, reputable engineering firms and architects to layout the plant long before it was built. And I gather you have a steady job.

Your comments are just silly, naive, and small-minded.

I used the term "scratch and struggle" in the context of what I've done over my entire career.
At the moment, as I posted I'm working for a defense contractor. They called me to come to work on the strength of the work I did for them in 2012.

At the time they hired me in '12 they didn't know me.
I had some credibility with them because of two things...

a) I had worked for a division of Northrup Grumman for nearly three years on the Navy's new guided-missile destroyer project, DDG-1000 (there are two DDG-1000 wikipedia pages if you're interested).
The company I'm now working for was supplier of some very specialized electrical control equipment to the DDG program.
We used the PLCs to control the entire set of ship's machinery systems, as the DDG is the most highly automated ship of any kind on the planet.
(That did NOT include any of the tactical or weapons/military-specific systems which were controlled with other platforms, not PLCs, our work was only the underlying machinery that makes the ship run and operate)


b) I have in-depth experience with the Siemens automation system referred to as the S7 PLC system.
That is a family of industrial control computers and other hardware used primarily in manufacturing to control factory machinery and processes.

http://www.automation.siemens.com/mcms/programmable-logic-controller/en/simatic-s7-controller/pages/default.aspx


I gained most of my knowledge of the S7 PLC system working on the DDG project. When I began on that effort I hardly knew what I was doing.... The Siemens system is much more difficult to learn than their nearest competitor, the American automation product family from Rockwell Automation known as Controllogix, which is far more commonly used here in the U.S. and with which I had extensive experience across a variety of industries and processes.

So my present "job" sorta was handed to me, only because I already have credibility with this company (after working on their project in 2012). No "scratch and struggle" there at all.


Ya know what though?
This project will soon be completed and they don't have other work for me at the moment... They don't always use that type of automation controller.. only on certain projects.

Negotiating with future potential clients is part of the "job", one that consumes a lot of time and energy..
In a few minutes I gotta write an email to discuss some possible work this summer on a project to control material-handling systems (conveyors and such) in the mining industry.
That sort of thing is almost a 2nd job sometimes, all depending on the ebb and flow of business..


What does all that have to do with VW?
Why would VW be interested in me?

Because VW uses the Siemens S7 automation controls family in everything they do around the world.
Now.... Tiro Fijo has been crowing that he can use the internet to find someone to replace anyone on any job...

TRY to find people qualified to work with the S7 automation product family here in the U.S...
Yes, there are people, but not very many. Why? Because it's a German product and its radically different than the Rockwell products with which American automation designers are more familiar.

And as I said earlier, it ain't easy to learn..
I've been struggling with something all week that the Siemens tech support people can't seem to help me with.
It's an unusual sort of application problem that the Siemens documentation does not describe with any more than a few vague sentences, and they offer no application examples.
But it's gotta be done, so the people I'm working for are paying me to run tests all damn day to find an answer.
And I will.


Yes, VW paid professional automation design firms to build their production equipment... I've never been in the VW plant and I don't know anyone who has, but I can tell you some of their suppliers, just as an educated guess.
Eisenmann, Durr, and others. How do I know this?
Because they're the leaders in various segments of factory automation for automotive assembly.

That does not mean however that there isn't further work to be done.

I have a young close friend I met ten years ago on an expansion/re-tooling project at the Mercedes plant.
I worked on that project for more than 2 years.

My friend is now working at BMW in South Carolina.
He started out doing other stuff but now he's learning PLC programming. So I help him out, long distance. I design learning exercises for him, he programs a solution, emails the program file to me, and I critique it.

The BMW plant has been in production for about 15 years. And yet, they have a number of people on the staff who continue to modify and add to the automation system programming.
And yes, finding qualified people is a massive problem at BMW also, but they've poured a bunch of money into training, and they have quite a few people who shuttle back-and-forth from Germany.

I programmed some minor assembly operations on the Z4 sports roadster about 9 years ago.

An old friend of mine (for 33 years, we met on the job) programs robots and PLCs. He grew up two miles from the BMW plant (when he was a kid he had a tree-house where the plant is today). In fact, he lives there now about 1-1/2 mile from the plant, just down the street from where he was born..
And his family was dirt-poor, they didn't have indoor plumbing until he was about 6 years old.

He too has done work for BMW, and he too was working independently. Not much, 'cause he works in other industries for Jacobs Engineering.
He won't touch the S7 PLCs though, hates them and doesn't really understand them ... he did ABB robot programming at BMW on a system to install windshields in the X5 SUV model. And like myself, he's self-taught.

German companies are far more open to using independent contractors than many U.S. firms. For them it's just a normal way of life. I've done work for several of the German component suppliers, such as ZF at their facility in Florence, KY just south of Cincinnati.
I did some minor modifications at the ZF Wind facility in Georgia, where they make giant gearboxes for wind turbines.
The work was on the largest "magna-flux" setup I've ever seen or imagined, and it was already in production, crafted by some really smart German manufacturer... but it needed some changes and they asked me to do it for them, through someone I know who does mechanical design for them from time to time.

What I'm saying is as I posted earlier..
I don't particularly enjoy automation work for automotive assembly, it's pretty-much my fall-back when there isn't much else happening.. So one thing I may offer to VW is training on the S7 system. The Siemens Tech Support office is also in Tennessee about 90 miles north, but ya know what?
I can do it better than they can, at least judging from what I've seen of others who have been through their training..

I'm working at the moment with an ultra-smart highly qualified software engineer who had the Siemens training 7 months ago for example. He pretty-much had to figure it out on his own, as I have done and continue to do. Their user documentation is CRAP!

(yeah Siemens, I'm talking about YOU... every time you email those tech-support user satisfaction surveys, I tell you the same thing. You ain't making any progress though, the user-manual for TIA Portal is how long? That's right, 10,066 pages and yet there's no mention of how to manage dependencies in the library feature...)


So make any comment you wish, but you continue to make various assertions about many things of which you know and understand precisely ZERO.

SevenSixtyTwo, you know so much about it?
Here:
http://www.automation.siemens.com/doconweb/pdf/SINUMERIK_SINAMICS_10_2012_E/S7_SFC.pdf?p=1

Dig into that and tell me how to apply SFB52 across a Profinet network to retrieve I/O module fault-diagnostics status.. (page 8-1)
The senior guy at Siemens USA couldn't figure it out.. maybe you can.



...And I gather you have a steady job.

You just don't get it... a "steady job" is the last thing I want... doesn't interest me in the least. I'd just be bored.

HalfHazzard
02-20-2014, 20:10
This is well understood but in the context of things, to insinuate that a huge plant like the new VW plant would hire some guy off the street to design and engineer their automated production facility after it's built is ludicrous. They had already hired a consulting firm like you apparently work for, reputable engineering firms and architects to layout the plant long before it was built. And I gather you have a steady job.

FTW. Thread over. Argument won.


:tongueout:

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 20:23
Maybe so but at least you finally posted something interesting. I work on Siemens, Magnetek and some KEB digital drives and operating systems. I was working on one today that had an objectionable hum to it that resonated through the building. Slip tolerance was set for the wrong motor by the installers. Easy fix once you know what's causing it. It's what intrigued me to look into the Prius aside from the fuel mileage. I would love to get into the workings of it and see how it's set up.
Good luck with your summer project endeavor with the mining company.

Atlas
02-20-2014, 20:41
Maybe so but at least you finally posted something interesting. I work on Siemens, Magnetek and some KEB digital drives and operating systems. I was working on one today that had an objectionable hum to it that resonated through the building. Slip tolerance was set for the wrong motor by the installers. Easy fix once you know what's causing it. It's what intrigued me to look into the Prius aside from the fuel mileage. I would love to get into the workings of it and see how it's set up.
..

BMW and Mercedes tend toward SEW drives... and they are cool as hell.

I worked on a warehouse crane system few years ago that used a 15 hp SEW drive in servo mode to drive a crane along a track on the floor about 75 yards in length...

SICK makes a uber-cool linear transducer that uses a strip of tape printed about every 1-1/2 inches with a bar-code.
The bar-code has the distance encoded on it and the reader can interpolate the distance between each printed bar-code by the angle of the mirror's rotation inside the unit. You can apply it to a max of almost two miles in length and it'll resolve down to about one millimeter.

You mount a little metal fence on the floor along-side the track with the bar-code tape applied onto the fence. Then the reader rides on the crane to provide distance feedback to the SEW drive.

That damn thing would scoot that 25-ton crane at up to about 15 mph until it approached the programmed stopping-point, then decelerate smooth as silk to stop at exactly the right point anywhere along the length of travel.


...Good luck with your summer project endeavor with the mining company.

Thanks very much.. We haven't reached an agreement as yet.
I'm only interested because it's in Colorado and I've never been there. It'll be spring then...

I'm waiting to hear if they may be extending my duration on the present gig... I like these folks and we get along great.
If they have more work for me than I'll stay here instead. Should know in another week or so.

.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-20-2014, 21:09
I'm all too familiar with position tables, position readers, digital encoders, secondary position transducers as well as the old relay logic controls in automation. Love the stuff. We're toying with the idea of linear drives. There's a lot of interesting advancements in the future. Makes me not want to retire. I've seen a lot of evolution in the industry over the past 34 years. The first analog VF drives left a lot to be desired. We've still got some around.

DanaT
02-21-2014, 05:00
Maybe so but at least you finally posted something interesting. I work on Siemens, Magnetek and some KEB digital drives and operating systems. I was working on one today that had an objectionable hum to it that resonated through the building. Slip tolerance was set for the wrong motor by the installers. Easy fix once you know what's causing it. It's what intrigued me to look into the Prius aside from the fuel mileage. I would love to get into the workings of it and see how it's set up.
Good luck with your summer project endeavor with the mining company.

I'm all too familiar with position tables, position readers, digital encoders, secondary position transducers as well as the old relay logic controls in automation. Love the stuff. We're toying with the idea of linear drives. There's a lot of interesting advancements in the future. Makes me not want to retire. I've seen a lot of evolution in the industry over the past 34 years. The first analog VF drives left a lot to be desired. We've still got some around.

I will say that for "fun" (enjoyment on the job) the technical side is more rewarding.

My version of keeping motion controllers working now is telling someone that it needs fixed and it better be running tomorrow.

DanaT
02-21-2014, 05:05
No, I make a lot of money for the company and they pay well to do it.

There is a difference between making a lot of money for a company (and being paid well) and actually being responsible for ensuring that there is enough in the company to pay the employees.

But, you did hit on something the typical union guy doesn't think about....

"I make a lot of money for the company"

They don't think like that.

They have the mindset "the company should pay me XX regarless of how much I make for them"

They think its "right" or "fair" what they think they should get paid.

In business an employee is ONLY worth what they make for the company. Union guys don't get that.

If an factory worker make $15/hr, the company needs to bring in about $75/hr to cover their salary/benefits/taxes/overhead and a small margin.

Most employees do not actually know their actual "cost" to the employer.

Atlas
02-21-2014, 05:29
...Most employees do not actually know their actual "cost" to the employer.

And I have seen that personally, many times.
Work for yourself for a while and you become acutely aware of the true cost of your only employee.


When you fail to think in terms of creating value in everything you do, then it becomes easy to fall into thinking "what can the company/the union/the government/my mommie do for me?"

With my multiple weaknesses and faults I find myself thinking "is this the best I'm gonna do? Hell no, there's gotta be more somewhere within myself I just haven't found. There's gotta be more.."
Every single day..

There are people in the world who by their nature are able to be incredibly productive in any endeavor, any activity. The rest of us have to struggle to do the best we're able.


Learn to create more value than the other guy and you will have an opportunity to prosper on your own terms. Do not, and you're just another busy person waiting to take his final breath.
That's just the hard reality of it all.

It's like that old joke about two guys in the woods being chased by a bear.. one yells "we're doomed, we're never gonna outrun that bear!" To which the other replies "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only gotta outrun you!"


Can't for the life of me see how a union is gonna change or improve that.

.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-21-2014, 06:11
There is a difference between making a lot of money for a company (and being paid well) and actually being responsible for ensuring that there is enough in the company to pay the employees.

But, you did hit on something the typical union guy doesn't think about....

"I make a lot of money for the company"

They don't think like that.

They have the mindset "the company should pay me XX regarless of how much I make for them"

They think its "right" or "fair" what they think they should get paid.

In business an employee is ONLY worth what they make for the company. Union guys don't get that.

If an factory worker make $15/hr, the company needs to bring in about $75/hr to cover their salary/benefits/taxes/overhead and a small margin.

Most employees do not actually know their actual "cost" to the employer.

I can't speak for "all" union members. Neither can you. We have a good crew where I work. The same attitude can be said for non-union employees as well. On some jobs my union pay with benefits is as little as 10% of what the customer pays. More often it's between 40 and 50%. Multiply that by the 28 techs out of our local office and there's a lot of money made and paid. I don't know what our office folks are paid but our local office is consistently in the top ten with corporate performance reports. We also have good friendships between office and field employees. How they do it up north I don't really care. We have a good thing going here and everyone is happy.

SevenSixtyTwo
02-21-2014, 06:17
And I have seen that personally, many times.
Work for yourself for a while and you become acutely aware of the true cost of your only employee.


When you fail to think in terms of creating value in everything you do, then it becomes easy to fall into thinking "what can the company/the union/the government/my mommie do for me?"

With my multiple weaknesses and faults I find myself thinking "is this the best I'm gonna do? Hell no, there's gotta be more somewhere within myself I just haven't found. There's gotta be more.."
Every single day..

There are people in the world who by their nature are able to be incredibly productive in any endeavor, any activity. The rest of us have to struggle to do the best we're able.


Learn to create more value than the other guy and you will have an opportunity to prosper on your own terms. Do not, and you're just another busy person waiting to take his final breath.
That's just the hard reality of it all.

It's like that old joke about two guys in the woods being chased by a bear.. one yells "we're doomed, we're never gonna outrun that bear!" To which the other replies "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only gotta outrun you!"


Can't for the life of me see how a union is gonna change or improve that.

.

Union is the base. Not the ceiling. I've been offered a supervisory position that would mean about a 30% raise in income. I like what I do in the field. It's far more interesting. I've seen a few union members advance into management positions and move on up with the company. The company will even pay college tuition for those who wish to advance. I don't know where you guys get your generalizations from but it's not like that here.

HalfHazzard
02-21-2014, 06:55
I don't know where you guys get your generalizations from but it's not like that here.

Mob style: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/02/20/philadelphia-union-indicted-in-12-quaker-house-arson/

Twinkies, turns out you don't need a union to make them: http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/15/news/companies/twinkies-hostess-jobs/

Public sector flavor unions: http://www.american.com/archive/2014/february/the-looting-of-detroits-pensions

Public sector unions again making sure your taxes pay them more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/19/us-usa-pensions-calpers-idUSBREA1I08120140219

Union management, when you get promoted you can do this: http://nypost.com/2013/05/28/labor-big-a-real-heavy-sleeper/

Then there's the guy who I know is in a union and does the right thing. I don't think the union is making him do the right thing, he choses to. Obviously the union gives some a good excuse or protection to not do the right thing.

Dana's question is interesting though: What if companies banded together to establish a minimum wage for various positions and responsibilities? Would we be upset if the minimum wage was higher or lower than what it is now?

DanaT
02-21-2014, 07:09
Having problems with quoting...so I have to do the old fashioned way...

"I can't speak for "all" union members. Neither can you. We have a good crew where I work. The same attitude can be said for non-union employees as well."\

Yes, you are correct, I shouldn't make the generalization of "union" employees don't get where their money come from.

I should have been more general and said "almost all hourly employees and most salary employees"

"On some jobs my union pay with benefits is as little as 10% of what the customer pays. More often it's between 40 and 50%. "

Again, going back to what I said:

"$15/hr, the company needs to bring in about $75/hr to cover their salary/benefits/taxes/overhead and a small margin"

Divide 15/75 = 20%

So the direct pay to employee is generally about 20% of the price.

If your company is paying you at 40% to 50% of what they bill to a customer, they are losing money.

Depending upon what you make, your taxes/benefits (you need to put in health insurance, workers comp, unemployment, vacation, sick time, etc) is somewhere between 50% (for someone around $15/hr) and 30% (someone making $150K).

So, lets make this easy.

Lets assume you make $35/hr. Your "total compensation" will cost the company around $49/hr.

If the company is paying 50% of what they bill, that means they are billing $70/hr.

If you take $49/hr out of $70/hr that leaves $21/hr. That $21/hr must cover all other costs in the business (the truck you might drive, the building, the heat, the accountant that writes the bills, the 60 days past due on invoice that the company is floating, the computers that are used, the management, etc, etc). That means only 30% of what they are billing is going to overhead/margin.

A company wont make it with a 30% markup on labor.

DanaT
02-21-2014, 07:13
[QUOTE=SevenSixtyTwo;21027518I've seen a few union members advance into management positions and move on up with the company. The company will even pay college tuition for those who wish to advance. I don't know where you guys get your generalizations from but it's not like that here.[/QUOTE]

Um.. My generalizations come from actually hiring people.

Why would I need to pay for a non-college educated person doing hourly work for me to get a college educated person in management positions?

I can start a recruitment tomorrow and look for a mid to upper level manager and have 100 resumes on my desk in a week. All of which will have a degree.

I paid for my bachelors and masters (yes, no loans, no scholarships, etc...paid for them). Why as a company, should I be expected to pay for my employees education? Something that happens when you actually have to write a check for your education...you take it seriously. Go plunk down $15k-20K/year in tuition and see how serious you take it.

SC Tiger
02-21-2014, 07:19
The company will even pay college tuition for those who wish to advance. I don't know where you guys get your generalizations from but it's not like that here.

That is quite common - My current and former employers both did that. I have had at least one employee take advantage of it and am trying to get a second one to do it now but it is their choice.

We are non-union, BTW.

DanaT
02-21-2014, 08:31
That is quite common - My current and former employers both did that. I have had at least one employee take advantage of it and am trying to get a second one to do it now but it is their choice.

We are non-union, BTW.

A question to ponder...

If an employee has places so little value on himself (herself) that they wont invest in education for himself (herself) why would an employer think the employee is more valuable than the employee thinks of themselves?

Why would I make an investment in an employee that the employee wont make in themselves?

The question cant really be answered except to drum up excuses of "why", but really think about it. If you think about this, you will come to the same conclusion that I have.

(PS..my conclusion is I wont invest in them if they aren't willing to invest in themselves....they know their true value and are displaying it)

GamerGirl
02-21-2014, 08:37
Your comments are just silly, naive, and small-minded.

I used the term "scratch and struggle" in the context of what I've done over my entire career.
At the moment, as I posted I'm working for a defense contractor. They called me to come to work on the strength of the work I did for them in 2012.

At the time they hired me in '12 they didn't know me.
I had some credibility with them because of two things...

a) I had worked for a division of Northrup Grumman for nearly three years on the Navy's new guided-missile destroyer project, DDG-1000 (there are two DDG-1000 wikipedia pages if you're interested).
The company I'm now working for was supplier of some very specialized electrical control equipment to the DDG program.
We used the PLCs to control the entire set of ship's machinery systems, as the DDG is the most highly automated ship of any kind on the planet.
(That did NOT include any of the tactical or weapons/military-specific systems which were controlled with other platforms, not PLCs, our work was only the underlying machinery that makes the ship run and operate)


b) I have in-depth experience with the Siemens automation system referred to as the S7 PLC system.
That is a family of industrial control computers and other hardware used primarily in manufacturing to control factory machinery and processes.

http://www.automation.siemens.com/mcms/programmable-logic-controller/en/simatic-s7-controller/pages/default.aspx


I gained most of my knowledge of the S7 PLC system working on the DDG project. When I began on that effort I hardly knew what I was doing.... The Siemens system is much more difficult to learn than their nearest competitor, the American automation product family from Rockwell Automation known as Controllogix, which is far more commonly used here in the U.S. and with which I had extensive experience across a variety of industries and processes.

So my present "job" sorta was handed to me, only because I already have credibility with this company (after working on their project in 2012). No "scratch and struggle" there at all.


Ya know what though?
This project will soon be completed and they don't have other work for me at the moment... They don't always use that type of automation controller.. only on certain projects.

Negotiating with future potential clients is part of the "job", one that consumes a lot of time and energy..
In a few minutes I gotta write an email to discuss some possible work this summer on a project to control material-handling systems (conveyors and such) in the mining industry.
That sort of thing is almost a 2nd job sometimes, all depending on the ebb and flow of business..


What does all that have to do with VW?
Why would VW be interested in me?

Because VW uses the Siemens S7 automation controls family in everything they do around the world.
Now.... Tiro Fijo has been crowing that he can use the internet to find someone to replace anyone on any job...

TRY to find people qualified to work with the S7 automation product family here in the U.S...
Yes, there are people, but not very many. Why? Because it's a German product and its radically different than the Rockwell products with which American automation designers are more familiar.

And as I said earlier, it ain't easy to learn..
I've been struggling with something all week that the Siemens tech support people can't seem to help me with.
It's an unusual sort of application problem that the Siemens documentation does not describe with any more than a few vague sentences, and they offer no application examples.
But it's gotta be done, so the people I'm working for are paying me to run tests all damn day to find an answer.
And I will.


Yes, VW paid professional automation design firms to build their production equipment... I've never been in the VW plant and I don't know anyone who has, but I can tell you some of their suppliers, just as an educated guess.
Eisenmann, Durr, and others. How do I know this?
Because they're the leaders in various segments of factory automation for automotive assembly.

That does not mean however that there isn't further work to be done.

I have a young close friend I met ten years ago on an expansion/re-tooling project at the Mercedes plant.
I worked on that project for more than 2 years.

My friend is now working at BMW in South Carolina.
He started out doing other stuff but now he's learning PLC programming. So I help him out, long distance. I design learning exercises for him, he programs a solution, emails the program file to me, and I critique it.

The BMW plant has been in production for about 15 years. And yet, they have a number of people on the staff who continue to modify and add to the automation system programming.
And yes, finding qualified people is a massive problem at BMW also, but they've poured a bunch of money into training, and they have quite a few people who shuttle back-and-forth from Germany.

I programmed some minor assembly operations on the Z4 sports roadster about 9 years ago.

An old friend of mine (for 33 years, we met on the job) programs robots and PLCs. He grew up two miles from the BMW plant (when he was a kid he had a tree-house where the plant is today). In fact, he lives there now about 1-1/2 mile from the plant, just down the street from where he was born..
And his family was dirt-poor, they didn't have indoor plumbing until he was about 6 years old.

He too has done work for BMW, and he too was working independently. Not much, 'cause he works in other industries for Jacobs Engineering.
He won't touch the S7 PLCs though, hates them and doesn't really understand them ... he did ABB robot programming at BMW on a system to install windshields in the X5 SUV model. And like myself, he's self-taught.

German companies are far more open to using independent contractors than many U.S. firms. For them it's just a normal way of life. I've done work for several of the German component suppliers, such as ZF at their facility in Florence, KY just south of Cincinnati.
I did some minor modifications at the ZF Wind facility in Georgia, where they make giant gearboxes for wind turbines.
The work was on the largest "magna-flux" setup I've ever seen or imagined, and it was already in production, crafted by some really smart German manufacturer... but it needed some changes and they asked me to do it for them, through someone I know who does mechanical design for them from time to time.

What I'm saying is as I posted earlier..
I don't particularly enjoy automation work for automotive assembly, it's pretty-much my fall-back when there isn't much else happening.. So one thing I may offer to VW is training on the S7 system. The Siemens Tech Support office is also in Tennessee about 90 miles north, but ya know what?
I can do it better than they can, at least judging from what I've seen of others who have been through their training..

I'm working at the moment with an ultra-smart highly qualified software engineer who had the Siemens training 7 months ago for example. He pretty-much had to figure it out on his own, as I have done and continue to do. Their user documentation is CRAP!

(yeah Siemens, I'm talking about YOU... every time you email those tech-support user satisfaction surveys, I tell you the same thing. You ain't making any progress though, the user-manual for TIA Portal is how long? That's right, 10,066 pages and yet there's no mention of how to manage dependencies in the library feature...)


So make any comment you wish, but you continue to make various assertions about many things of which you know and understand precisely ZERO.

SevenSixtyTwo, you know so much about it?
Here:
http://www.automation.siemens.com/doconweb/pdf/SINUMERIK_SINAMICS_10_2012_E/S7_SFC.pdf?p=1

Dig into that and tell me how to apply SFB52 across a Profinet network to retrieve I/O module fault-diagnostics status.. (page 8-1)
The senior guy at Siemens USA couldn't figure it out.. maybe you can.





You just don't get it... a "steady job" is the last thing I want... doesn't interest me in the least. I'd just be bored.


https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5545746688/hFC9A516F.jpg

Haldor
02-21-2014, 08:42
This is well understood but in the context of things, to insinuate that a huge plant like the new VW plant would hire some guy off the street to design and engineer their automated production facility after it's built is ludicrous. They had already hired a consulting firm like you apparently work for, reputable engineering firms and architects to layout the plant long before it was built. And I gather you have a steady job.

Hiring individual consultants with a proven track record happens all the time. I have worked as a design consultant numerous times. I had a normal, full time engineering job, so these were side jobs (with my employers full knowledge).

I got most of the leads for contract work from IC vendors I had worked with in the past (Silicon Labs and NXP). They had customers who ran into a snags during product development and the IC vendors knew I was experienced solving the issues in question. Most of my contracting work involved USB peripheral interface design and software drivers which are pretty arcane if you have never done it.

I have worked with contractors just like Atlas. In fact I have possibly run into Atlas in a professional capacity (from the description of the kind of work he does). I don't have any recent PLC programming experience, but control system startup is how I got my start in engineering (doing very much the same kind of work Atlas described).

I never consulted full time, but if I was looking for more work, I would hang out on embedded developer forums answering newbie questions. The contacts you gain there can often turn into consulting jobs (when the newbie realizes how much they don't know). Consulting engineers can be very much gypsies, traveling to where the work is. I wanted more stability in my life, so I found a regular engineering job working for one company. However I can understand the appeal of being your own boss.

SC Tiger
02-21-2014, 08:46
A question to ponder...

If an employee has places so little value on himself (herself) that they wont invest in education for himself (herself) why would an employer think the employee is more valuable than the employee thinks of themselves?

Why would I make an investment in an employee that the employee wont make in themselves?

The question cant really be answered except to drum up excuses of "why", but really think about it. If you think about this, you will come to the same conclusion that I have.

(PS..my conclusion is I wont invest in them if they aren't willing to invest in themselves....they know their true value and are displaying it)

It's a corporate perk - like insurance, 401K, FSA. There are requirements (must stay with the company a set number of years afterwards, minimum grade, etc).

But think about it - if an employee shows potential but cannot make the investment in his career himself for whatever reason ($10/hr is not much money to raise a family and try to get an education), why not help him or her advance themselves? In return we get an employee with both the education AND the experience we need. Win-win.

But you also have to care about your employees a little bit and want to see them advance and better themselves, not treat them like interchangable parts (they aren't). Based on your comments I don't really expect you to understand that honestly.

Heck - I plan to take advantage and get an MBA with it soon.

DanaT
02-21-2014, 09:27
But think about it - if an employee shows potential but cannot make the investment in his career himself for whatever reason ($10/hr is not much money to raise a family and try to get an education), why not help him or her advance themselves?



The question cant really be answered except to drum up excuses of "why", but really think about it.

I addressed this. What they make is an excuse. If someone is making $10/hr trying to support a family, that is because of decisions that they made in life. They CHOSE to have a family before being financially stable.

Last time I checked, there is deliberate actions that are required to "make a family." Although a very common misconception, storks really do not bring babies and just drop them off. Santa Claus doesnt really bring every child presents either.



In return we get an employee with both the education AND the experience we need. Win-win.

You didnt read what I wrote. I stated that I can open a job and have a 100 resumes within a week. Most of them will have education and experience; especially if the job description says that.

But you also have to care about your employees a little bit and want to see them advance and better themselves, not treat them like interchangable parts (they aren't). Based on your comments I don't really expect you to understand that honestly.

Never start believing you are irreplaceable. Almost everyone is.

You have me wrong. I value the employees I have but I wont employ with the "union" mentality. I pay my employees above market and expect to get above market employees.

I hire 1099 first for a few months. If they fool me in an interview and by recommendations, they are cut loose quickly.

Let me give you a small example of what I did. I had one of the young engineers that works for me (she came from a top tier engineering school in New England). She doesnt have a lot of experience but she came recommended from other people I know. She is also expected to travel to Germany. She worked really hard and took a lot of initiative when she was in Germany before xmas. When we flew back home, I asked if there were any empty business seats (there almost always are). Although by "policy" she is not allowed to fly business, I simply made the decision she was and paid the difference (about $2500 one way). Did I have to? No. But she also worked alot harder than she had to.

So yes, I value GOOD employees but no I dont value poor ones.



Heck - I plan to take advantage and get an MBA with it soon.

That is a smart move. What my question would be why "get an MBA with it soon". Why did you qualify it with soon? Why did you not already do it? Why arent you already working on it? Again, think about what I am saying.

If you come into an interview and you tell me you will start working towards an MBA soon, and the next guy tells me he has completed an MBA, which do I give more credit.

DanaT
02-21-2014, 09:39
I have found that the most vehement anti-union people are usually those who are jealous as they don't make Jack Schitt, or the arrogant types that think they are immune to losing their jobs. Anyone can be replaced and it is ever so humbling when it happens. Pride goes before the fall.

So what is it exactly that you do, Mr. International Jet Setter?

What I find ironic is your feeble attempt at an insulting people.

You first want to claim people who arent in a union are anto union because they "don't make Jack Schitt". That is laughable. Why dont you tell us the names of any executive, upper or middle management that are part of a union in Fortune 500 companies. Next lets compare of the Fortune 500 that have unions the average pay rate for union vs upper, middle and executive management.

The finding will be. 100% of the upper, middle and executive management are non-union and the pay is much higher.

Next you try a passe personal attack on me.

Yes, I fly alot. I work for an international company and am expected to be in Europe when they want me in Europe. Drop everything and fly to Europe. Yes, that is expected.

What you will find from anyone who actually has to travel for work is it is not glamorous. A person gets very sick of flying very quickly.

I dont get to whine and need a "shift differential" because I am awake during the time I normally sleep. Jet lag and changing body schedules comes with the job.

What I see is that it is very clear why we are in different places in life and why we look at employment/employees in such a vastly different way.

Glock+2
02-21-2014, 10:23
I can't speak for "all" union members. Neither can you. We have a good crew where I work. The same attitude can be said for non-union employees as well. On some jobs my union pay with benefits is as little as 10% of what the customer pays. More often it's between 40 and 50%. Multiply that by the 28 techs out of our local office and there's a lot of money made and paid. I don't know what our office folks are paid but our local office is consistently in the top ten with corporate performance reports. We also have good friendships between office and field employees. How they do it up north I don't really care. We have a good thing going here and everyone is happy.

You really don't understand business and the bottom line...