International Clays powder [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Aquagear
04-13-2014, 14:42
A while back a friend of mine gave me about a 1/2 lb of International Clays to try. I had plenty of other powders that I normally use, so it sat on the shelf. I am running low on some of my regular powders and want to try it out, but I can not find any data for it. I will be loading 9mm 147, and 45 200 gr. Anyone have any load data for this powder in these calibers.:dunno:

WeeWilly
04-13-2014, 19:18
I too am down to my last lb of International. I use it for my wife's practice buckshot loads, plus some lighter game loads, great powder for those applications.


I have never seen any published handgun data for it. My bet is it would work well for light target loads. The only downside is it is a fast powder so "working up loads" needs to be done with great care as the difference between a load that functions well in your gun and one that is way around the bend is not going to be a great deal of powder.

Aquagear
04-13-2014, 21:11
I kind of figured if there was no data it was not suited to the task.
Most fast burning shotgun powders can be used in light pistol loads, but care must be taken. Thanks for the reply, I guess this is one of them that is not advisable:wavey:.

Gperfection
04-13-2014, 21:51
International Clays is just too fast for pistol in my honest opinion.

WeeWilly
04-13-2014, 23:34
International Clays is just too fast for pistol in my honest opinion.

I am not sure I understand. Given there are many faster powders successfully loaded in handgun and many of the most popular calibers first started with black powder, I would think International could be loaded no problem.

A careful work up by an experienced hand would likely yield a round similar in performance to WST, I think.

Aquagear
04-14-2014, 05:20
I nam going to check the burn rate charts and start low, these are going to be plinking loads anyway. Thanks for the replies, I was just hoping there was some data out there some ware.:wavey:

fredj338
04-14-2014, 09:21
If working off the books, use the fastest powder data as a starting point. Go slow, watch for pressure signs. Chrono as you go, you are looking for velocity plateaus, these often indicate pressures getting near the top end.

WeeWilly
04-14-2014, 10:11
If working off the books, use the fastest powder data as a starting point. Go slow, watch for pressure signs. Chrono as you go, you are looking for velocity plateaus, these often indicate pressures getting near the top end.


Great advice.


I also would start with the .45 auto as it is a little more forgiving than that 147gr 9mm round. A 147gr bullet in 9mm is kind of worst case as far as the range of acceptable results goes.

Colorado4Wheel
04-14-2014, 10:48
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Are we not talking about "International Clays" #21 on that list?

If so it's really not that fast a powder.

https://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html

They have data for Clays all over their site. Don't know why they don't list "International Clays". I find that interesting. It's slower so it should work better then "Clays"

Colorado4Wheel
04-14-2014, 11:13
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162627

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/368094-international-clays-data.html

Interesting thread

Gperfection
04-14-2014, 11:25
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Are we not talking about "International Clays" #21 on that list?

If so it's really not that fast a powder.

https://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html

They have data for Clays all over their site. Don't know why they don't list "International Clays". I find that interesting. It's slower so it should work better then "Clays"

There must be some reason Hodgdon doesn't list pistol loads using In·ter·na·tion·al Clays. Why risk it over 1/2 pound of powder (under $15)?

fredj338
04-14-2014, 12:58
There must be some reason Hodgdon doesn't list pistol loads using In·ter·na·tion·al Clays. Why risk it over 1/2 pound of powder (under $15)?

Not really, they probably haven't got around to testing in pistol calibers, it is a sg powder. Just about any shotgun/handgun powder can be made to work in any handgun application. Some will work better than others. You will have to develop your own data & "safe" pressures will be a WAG, but it can be done safely. Many wildcat handloaders work off no data, we do fine.:supergrin:

WeeWilly
04-14-2014, 13:03
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162627

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/368094-international-clays-data.html

Interesting thread

The "bogey man" content is high enough in the links Steve posted that maybe a call to Hodgdon is warranted, at least before you launch into the development of those 9mm loads.

As Fred noted, many times the manufacturer (using the term loosely here with regard to Hodgdon) just hasn't done any ballistic testing, especially if they already have powders with better margins that fit the bill in the book.

Colorado4Wheel
04-14-2014, 14:24
I normally don't care about the sparse data. But those threads were a little scary. Even my choosen Solo1000 loads has data that was available years back. WST had data in the old days. So why not for International Clays. The burn rate alone seems fine for pistol.

Colorado4Wheel
04-14-2014, 14:33
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?49822-hodgdon-international-clays-in-45-acp/page2

I would read post #25

WiskyT
04-14-2014, 15:21
The "bogey man" content is high enough in the links Steve posted that maybe a call to Hodgdon is warranted, at least before you launch into the development of those 9mm loads.

As Fred noted, many times the manufacturer (using the term loosely here with regard to Hodgdon) just hasn't done any ballistic testing, especially if they already have powders with better margins that fit the bill in the book.

There is a lot of stupid in those links. It's like they let Jenny McCarthy decide their "science" for them.

I didn't see one wit of information that was from any kind of source showing any issue with International Clays.

As for the lack of data, it is indicative of exactly nothing other than the fact that no one bothered to work up data for it. There are a gazillion powders, calibers, bullets, primers, etc. Just because someone didn't bother to work up data in a lab for a particular powder doesn't mean it isn't any good for pistol loading.

I like when people say the same thing about Alliant powders based on the data available on Alliant's website. Then I post a PDF of the older Alliant booklets showing virtually all of their shotgun powders used in virtually all pistol calibers.

If it were me, I would follow some of the excellent advice given here. Find a powder that is faster on the charts and use starting data for that powder. Stop right there since the slide will cycle and you will have "ammo". Make you 1,000 or so rounds with your half pound of powder and call it good.

I also like the idea of using it in 45ACp over 9mm as there is a lot more margin in the 45. 45's run well at 12kpsi, but you could double that and be well below 45 Super loads that are run in basically stock guns.

Colorado4Wheel
04-14-2014, 15:27
I didn't see one wit of information that was from any kind of source showing any issue with International Clays.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?49822-hodgdon-international-clays-in-45-acp/page2

I would read post #25


I don't know the guy but post 25 seem legit to me. I would call Hodgon before I moved forward.

Gperfection
04-14-2014, 15:38
Aren't we talking about 1/2 pound of powder that costs less than $15. Load some shotgun shells with it and get a suitable powder for the 9 and 45. Or better yet trade it to someone that loads shotgun, for a suitable powder. If this was the last powder on earth and all you have is a pistol, then by all means load up the pistol ammo with it.

WeeWilly
04-14-2014, 16:19
Aren't we talking about 1/2 pound of powder that costs less than $15. Load some shotgun shells with it and get a suitable powder for the 9 and 45. Or better yet trade it to someone that loads shotgun, for a suitable powder. If this was the last powder on earth and all you have is a pistol, then by all means load up the pistol ammo with it.


That is a decent point. Worst case, you would find your all time favorite 45 Auto load with International, just as you finished off the last half pound, then face the reality that you may never be able to buy it again because of some export restriction in Australia or Hodgdon had a falling out with Mulwala (or whoever now makes the stuff).


22grs does make a mighty fine 1oz #1.5 buckshot load.

Aquagear
04-14-2014, 16:40
Thanks guys it really is not that urgent an issue, I was just hoping someone out there had worked with international clays before. I would like to use it, but with no data I think think it is fertilizer, not enough powder to bother with. If it were a 4lb jug that would be different.:wavey:

WiskyT
04-14-2014, 18:06
I don't know the guy but post 25 seem legit to me. I would call Hodgon before I moved forward.

I think it's legit in the sense that the guy making the post is accurately relaying his conversation with Hodgdon. But, ask that type of question to someone who is basically a CS rep in any type of industry and you typically get a similar response. Medicines are like that. The labels warn against anything and everything. Anything that even slightly deviates from the FDA approved label is considered certain death. I asked my Dr. if I could take Benedryl after I took Zertec when the Zertec wasn't doing the job. Her response wasn't "yes", it was "why not?" She almost thought it was s dumb question. I'm sure the makers of Benedryl and Zertec would have both said "NO!".

I'm not saying there aren't any interaction problems with medications, I'm saying that the CS rep from Hodgdon likely has a response he is expected to give regarding anything that isn't already in their published data.

fredj338
04-14-2014, 18:06
Thanks guys it really is not that urgent an issue, I was just hoping someone out there had worked with international clays before. I would like to use it, but with no data I think think it is fertilizer, not enough powder to bother with. If it were a 4lb jug that would be different.:wavey:

My contrarian view; if all you have is 1/2#, why not work up some loads for it, save the data. In todays climate, you never know what you will run across. Better than fertilizing the roses with it.:dunno:

WiskyT
04-14-2014, 18:18
My contrarian view; if all you have is 1/2#, why not work up some loads for it, save the data. In todays climate, you never know what you will run across. Better than fertilizing the roses with it.:dunno:

I agree. I'd be more concerned about the fact that it was previously opened than the fact that there isn't data for it. Throwing out half a pound of perfectly good powder seems silly to me.

Samurai
04-15-2014, 02:14
i read somewhere that you can use green dot load data.

PCJim
04-15-2014, 09:40
My contrarian view; if all you have is 1/2#, why not work up some loads for it, save the data. In todays climate, you never know what you will run across. Better than fertilizing the roses with it.:dunno:

I agree. I'd be more concerned about the fact that it was previously opened than the fact that there isn't data for it. Throwing out half a pound of perfectly good powder seems silly to me.

Yep! I'll third that opinion.

Colorado4Wheel
04-15-2014, 09:44
I would not toss it. Never toss out powder. It last your lifetime essentially.

WeeWilly
04-15-2014, 10:03
i read somewhere that you can use green dot load data.


In the shotgun loads I use International, the Green Dot charge weights are almost identical. The difference is for a given recipe GD delivers a little less pressure and resultant velocity, at least on paper.


In my experience, with 1oz loads, GD falls short of International in both velocity potential and consistency (ES/SD).


They are physically different enough that I would not substitute International for GD in a published handgun load. I think you should work up from scratch.